Your Career Journey

Embracing Diversity and Leading with Purpose | Career Lessons from Celeste Warren

• Emma Graham

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How do you really make Diversity, Equity and Inclusion work, not just as a policy, but as something that’s lived and felt in an organisation?

In this episode, I sit down with Celeste Warren, a globally recognised HR and Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI) leader with nearly 40 years of experience at some of the world’s largest corporations.

Celeste shares her inspiring career journey, from her early days as a journalist, to becoming a global HR executive, to specialising in DEI leadership. She reflects on the powerful influence of her father and how his experiences shaped her own perspective on resilience and inclusion.

💡 What you’ll learn in this episode:

➡️ How Celeste pivoted from journalism to human resources

➡️ What DEI really is, what it isn't and why everybody wins when you get it right

➡️ The lessons she learned from embedding DEI into corporate strategy at Merck

➡️ The challenges and opportunities of rolling out DEI on a global scale

➡️ Why continuous learning and authentic leadership are critical for leaders today

➡️ Her advice for the next generation of professionals stepping into leadership roles

Celeste also shares her next chapter: launching her own consulting practice and publishing her book, 'The Truth about Equity', while staying focused on empowering others to embrace diversity and lead with purpose.

📌 Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
00:10 Celeste's Early Life and Career Beginnings
02:47 Transition to Human Resources
04:53 Career at Merck & Pivot to DEI
09:23 What DEI Really Means
12:11 Embedding DEI in Large Organisations
18:28 Global Perspectives on Inclusion
26:19 Common DEI Challenges & Misunderstandings
39:13 Final Thoughts and Reflections

👉 If you’re a leader, HR professional, or simply curious about how to create more inclusive workplaces, this conversation is packed with practical insights and powerful stories you won’t want to miss.

To connect with Celeste:
🌍 Website: https://crwdiversity.com/
📖 Book: https://crwdiversity.com/#book
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/celestewarrenllc/

Your host, Emma Graham, Career Coach and ex-recruiter, is here to help you with:

💡 Gain clarity on what’s important to you
💡 Confidently communicate your value
💡 Build a personal brand and a strong network
💡 Take a strategic approach to your next move
💡 Navigate the job market effectively
💡 Build career confidence with a repeatable success blueprint

🌐 Explore my coaching programs and free resources:
Website: https://www.egconsulting.au/
LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/emmajgraham
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmagrahamcareercoach/

🎁 Free Resources:
📄 CV Development Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/cv-advice
📄 LinkedIn Profile Optimisation Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/linkedin-profile-guide

📅 Book Your FREE Career Strategy Discovery Call:
https://calendly.com/emmagrahamconsulting/discovery-call

Emma:

Hello and welcome to Your Career Journey, the podcast designed to be your compass through the twists and turns of career development. Today I'm joined by Celeste Warren, an author and transformative leader with nearly 40 years experience in Global HR and DEI, most recently serving as Vice President and Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at Merck. Celeste talks about what DEI is and what it isn't and why equity creates winners across the board and builds a better world. Join me to find out more. So I am joined today by Celeste. Celeste Warren, welcome. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me, Emma. You are very, very welcome. Before we get into talking about all things kind of DEI and how you think about that and work with it, love to understand a bit more about your career journey and what kind of set you on the path to working in that space.

Celeste:

Well, you know, I was born in a small steel mill town in western Pennsylvania in the United States. And my father was the first black teacher in that region, in that area. And so when he would come home at the end of the day, and he we would be sitting at the dinner table, five, there's five of us as far as siblings, and my mom would ask that normal question that mothers ask when their husbands come home, how was your day? And he would then proceed to talk about the challenges that he faced being the first, and not just the challenges, but also what he did to overcome those challenges and barriers. And so I had a front row seat along with my siblings around, okay, this is how he managed to uh work through challenges and thrive, not just survive, but thrive in the environment that he was in. So I learned a lot listening to that conversation as a child, and it just stuck with me throughout my lifetime. And I started out as a reporter. I wanted to be that reporter, and I covered both sports and news. That's what I wanted to do ever since high school. And so I went to undergraduate, and that's what I studied telecommunications and journalism. I ended up working at a radio station after I graduated, undergraduate. And I tell you, I didn't make, I wasn't making a lot of money. And when I mean a lot of money, I wasn't making hardly any money. I had to consistently keep, you know, calling home and saying, Mom, dad, can you help me pay my rent and and all of that? And so I got an interview for the local television station where I was where I was at that time. And I thought, oh, I'm on my way. This is great. Went in, nailed the interview, and then a week or so later got the contract for you know what my pay would be and all of that. And it was just a few hundred dollars over what I was making as a radio reporter. I was so just you know, disillusioned. I was so just, I felt so sad and wow, this is how my life is gonna be. You know, is this is this it? Is the career that I've chosen? Am I gonna consistently be being have to you know call to my mom and dad to help bail me out, pay, help me pay bills? And I just wasn't, that wasn't me. I was a very independent kid. And so I was sort of despondent and I went through like a pre, pre, pre, pre mid-career crisis. And I and I said to myself, okay, what am I gonna do? And I I spoke to my older sister, and she said, Well, why don't you just go back to school, get your master's degree, and uh then you can sort of pick a a career that you would like. And so I did that, went to school, graduate school at uh Carnegie Mellon University, close to nearby home. My mom taught me into coming close to home, and got involved in human resources, learned about that profession, and did an internship and in between first and second year of grad school at the old general foods. And I thought, this is really nice. I mean, I'm getting actually getting paid for this, and I it was it's like a branded glove. Yeah, it fit like a like a hand-dug glove. And so I was like, okay, this is great. And that was my career. I started working first at General Foods and craft foods, and then moved to the pharmaceutical industry with Merck, and that's where I've been the last 28 years. And the last 10 of those years with Merck, I was the chief diversity and inclusion officer. So that's sort of me.

Emma:

And one of the things we were were talking about off camera before we go on to to talk about the the DI in in more detail was how you kind of come to think about this stage of your career. Because I thought that was really interesting. And I often kind of think about the sort of seasons of uh of your career and the different kind of acts, if you like, of of how you see it. So, yeah, tell me about this stage and and how you're kind of thinking about it and working through it.

Celeste:

Yeah, I I always tell people, you know, we plan and God laughs, but you do need to plan for your next chapter if you are thinking about retiring, and and not three days before you say, I'm gonna retire, but you really should start thinking about it, you know, a couple, two, three years ahead of time. And that's what I did. You know, I knew I had my my kids were going to postgraduate work, my daughter's at vet school, my son is in graduate school, so they're still in school. And you the financial planning literally started, you know, when they were babies, you know, getting a college fund for them, starting that, because education, you know, was very, very important in my um lifetime. And so I started thinking about, okay, well, what do I want to do post my corporate career? And that's when I said, you know, I found my niche. I found the thing that I really embraced and was very passionate about, and that's with diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I said, okay, if this is sort of what I want to do and how I want to focus, then how does that, what does that mean post my corporate career? And so um I started preparing and thinking about putting an LLC together. I did that three, three or so years ago to have that in place when I decided to to retire and started just really building networks and part collaboration partners and just you know, people who were in your ecosystem that would be in your ecosystem post-your corporate career and nurturing those relationships. And so now I'm doing consulting in diversity, inclusion, equity, and I love it. I I love working with organizations, whether they be for-profit, nonprofit, universities and colleges. I love working with these groups and talking to them about how do you make better leaders, how do you make better managers, how do you make better business decisions when you understand the diversity that exists within your employee base and also within your customer base. So it's really been, I just enjoyed it. I love it. I love the the autonomy, I love being my own boss, and I love the people that I meet along this, and I've been meeting along this journey, and I've just starting out. And I also wanted to make sure that my I have a second book that I launched in July in in conjunction with the retirement. And that also helps too, because when I go around and I speak, I have book signings and I talk to talk to people about that. So it's just been a wonderful, wonderful sort of next chapter for me. And I'm really enjoying it.

Emma:

Nice. I think as well, there's an element of I was thinking about this yesterday, there's an element of of kind of knowledge transfer. I I think as you kind of get older and and you're in that sort of season of of your career. It's something that I think about too, of you know, all the things that you've learned to date and and wanting to be able to kind of share those and I guess essentially, you know, pass them on to the to the next generation, as it were. I think that's actually quite an important part of it.

Celeste:

I think it's it's it's an obligation and a responsibility that we have. You know, we learned from people who were uh before before us and they taught us skills, capabilities, helped, helped nurture our passions. And I just feel it's you know, it's an obligation that I that I should be paying it forward um post the corporate career. And and I and I love sharing and and and like I said, and and talking with individuals, helping individuals as they navigate their lives, both perfor professional and personal.

Emma:

And I think as well, it's it's not just the kind of the skills and knowledge that you've gained along the way, it's it's also kind of sharing some of that personal experience as well. I think there's a huge amount of of value in that, in that too. And pleased to hear that you're enjoying it. I mean, that's that's a big part of it too, isn't it?

Celeste:

Oh, absolutely.

Emma:

You get to enjoy what you're doing. So that's that's great to hear. In terms of uh diversity, equity, and inclusion, uh tell me, tell me how you think about it and and tell me how you come to work with people, leaders, managers, organizations. Talk to me, talk to me broadly, and and then perhaps we'll we'll talk more specifically after that.

Celeste:

Yeah, I so the way that I like to explain it is diversity is simply differences, differences in people, those you can see and those you can't see from their life experiences, their skills, their capabilities, their their identities, all of that makes up the intersection of this individual. And there are differences. Everybody is different in their own unique way, their individuality. So that's diversity, differences in people. Inclusion is what you surround those people with, all of those differences, you surround them with a culture of inclusion. So you can help to leverage those differences to get to a collective purpose, whatever the collective purpose might be within your organization, your firm, your university, your nonprofit, whatever it is. Everyone has a mission and a vision for their organization. And so you have to leverage all of those people with all of their differences to get to that collective purpose. Equity is the work that you have to do in meeting people where they are and bringing them forward and providing them with whatever it is that they need based on that individuality, whether that be, you know, from development for their skills and capabilities, whether that be different things that they need from a personal standpoint because of different things that they're doing. Maybe they have a special needs child and they have to work certain hours of the day. But but it's what are those things that need to be in place to make sure that you're getting all of those people with all of the those differences to that collective purpose. And that's kind of how I look at diversity, equity, and inclusion. It's an inside out view as opposed to the outside in clamoring to get in at the business and the organization. It's a it's an inside out view because all of us are different. All of us are have bring something to the table where we can be valued for what we bring to the table and to the business.

Emma:

And in a large corporate organization like like Bursk, uh, where you said, I think 28 years you said, which is uh a phenomenal, a phenomenal career with a with an organization. What does that sort of what does that look like in in practical terms, in terms of, I don't know, frameworks or training and development? What are the what are the kind of the on the ground, as it were, aspects of that?

Celeste:

Yeah, so I like to look at it in four ways. First is you have to look at your people strategies from the standpoint of your talent management strategies, your succession planning strategies, your development strategies, and make sure that, well, let me back up. First, it's the values and standards of the corporation, of the company, of the organization. What are those values and standards? And then making sure that if you have values and standards around treating people with dignity and respect, valuing people's differences, uh, creating a culture of inclusion and belonging, if that's fundamentally a part of the makeup of your organization and their values, then you have to put people strategies, business strategies in place that align to those values. In the people space, you want to make sure that you have a you have people strategies that allow for people to bring their best selves to work, but also it nurtures their best selves, allows them to develop and through learning and development, you know, how are you building their skills and capabilities? What do they do well? What do they what do they need to develop in? And being able to to put strategies in place for from a learning and development standpoint, um, putting strategies in place from a talent management standpoint. So basically, okay, well, how are you looking at the people within your organization and bringing them forward so they are at an optimal performance level so they can contribute to the business and in whatever functional discipline that they have. So putting having discussions about them, talking about their strengths, talking about their areas for development among management teams. And then also making sure that that discussion highlights the differences that exist within those individuals and what needs to happen to get them to the level of performance, get them to the level of leadership that they need in order to be successful. And for each person, it's different. And so you have to make sure that you're you're having those discussions from a culture standpoint. You have to surround those people with a culture of inclusion, engagement, empowerment. And that can be done in a lot of different ways through policies, practices, and procedures that are again aligned with the values of that organization. So you have you know flexible work arrangements, for example, and things like that, the your benefits packages. What do you offer? Do you have same-sex benefits, for example? But but looking at those aspects of your policies, the practices and procedures of your leaders and your managers and how they engage and work with their teams and individuals. So making sure that there's a lot of areas and training around inclusive leadership, because that's very, very critical. Psychological safety, having that in the workplace so people can feel that they can truly bring their best sales to work. And then also from a business standpoint, so how are you engaging with your customers who are very, very different and diverse across the spectrum? But what do your marketing strategies look like? Your go-to-sales, go-to-market sales strategies look like because everyone, all of your customers are very different. The demographics of your customer base, any industry, they're very, very different. And so as you look at putting together marketing strategies and sales strategies for how you can reach those customers, you need to make sure that you understand those customers and you understand them across the various different markets, around the world, around the globe, around you know, each of the different needs that they have as customers. So you can meet those needs with whatever product or service that you have. So that's how you integrate diversity, equity, inclusion into an organization. Because if you aren't looking at it, like I said, from an inside out point of view, um, then you won't have the success that you're trying to have from the standpoint of maximizing your people and then ultimately having a strong business and business performance as well. I like to call it the ripple effect. Yeah. So if you focus on the employee, if you focus on the person holistically, who they are, what they need, providing them with what they need to be able to be successful in the organization, the ripple effect is you have better business performance, you have better, more innovation and creativity in the workplace, and then that ripples out to outside of the workplace where you have better, if you're a for-profit organization, better shareholder value, you have better marketplace value as well. And you also in the labor market, people will view you and you know, those that are looking for jobs will look at your organization and say, that's someplace where I want to be. So, you know, you look favorable within the organization. And what better marketers for the employee for the organization are the employees?

Emma:

Yeah, absolutely. That's a huge amount of work, like that's a huge undertaking, and and you know, it makes sense the uh the framework and and those steps, but in terms of a global organization and a large workforce, that's that's pretty massive, pretty massive undertaking over time. What what was it like, I guess, uh trying to implement some of those policies and and kind of work through that? What what challenges did you face within the business? Was there pushback from the business? What did that look like? And also I'd be interested to know what kind of period of time that that happened over in in terms of building that capability.

Celeste:

Oh, yeah, it it takes a while. I was in the job for 10 years and almost 11 years, and it's a gradual, I I like to say it's like watching paint dry on a wall because you have to gradually go through what it is, it's organizational change, but it's through the lens of diversity, equity, inclusion. So you're looking at the people practices and strategies, you're looking at the business strategies, you're looking at the culture strategies, and you're saying, okay, how do I get inside them and sort of reshape them so they are meeting the needs of the individual, of the business, of the organization. And yeah, I had lots of pushback. I can remember from a global perspective. When I first got in the job and I was traveling around to different countries, and I would be talking to the leaders in in various different countries about diversity and inclusion, and the first thing they would say was, Oh, they put the hand up and say, Oh, don't, that's a US concept. Don't bring that over here. That's that we don't we don't have those types of programs. We don't see that. Yeah. Yeah, we don't have those types of problems that you have in the United States. And so I said, Okay, well, I think I'm gonna I had to reshape the conversation. And I would talk to to them about you know the haves and the have nots. You know, every country has people that have and people that don't have. And so how they're identified, who they are, whether it's classism, racism, sexism, colorism, homophobia, you know, all of those those those entities of of what makes individuals, some are in a better, have a better path and some don't for various different reasons. And so I would have conversations when I went back to these to these countries, I would have conversations around, you know, social, economic, political discussions, and they would be really, really good. I mean, just in-depth conversations. We would talk about the you know, the country, and then at the very end of the conversation, I'd slip in the words diversity and inclusion, and it would be like and I would say, Well, what do you think we've been talking about for the last hour? That's that's that's what we've been talking about. It's the differences in people and how that manifests itself in the organization, and what do we need to do to close that gap between the people that have and the people that don't have for whatever reason and however we identify it, because each country is different and the focus. And so the framework, you can't create uh a strategy that is so rigid that it's not, it doesn't make sense in different parts of the world. And so you create a strategic framework that makes sense, and so they they can I call it globalization, where no matter where someone sits in the world, no matter what part of the business they're in, they can take that framework and say, what does it mean for me? What do I need to do in the people space? What do I need to do in the culture space? What is what is getting in the way of our people being able to have the the type of work experience that we want them to have? And what is what is getting in the way from us being able to reach new markets in within our our country? So you have to create a strategy that's more like a strategic framework that gets them started, but then empower them to be able to say, you know your country, you know your part of the business, do what you need to do to drive the elements of that framework. And that I tell you, that made a huge difference. A huge, huge difference.

Emma:

Yeah. Do you think the you mentioned sort of the time aspect there and that it obviously takes time to to obviously set the framework, but then also kind of work through that? Do you think that's where some of the perhaps pushback comes from when the time element has been forgotten and and it's been, I don't know, almost like tried to force fit. You know, we're doing this DEI, force fit, we have to fit into whatever model it is. And that desire to kind of make it happen really quickly has almost inherently caused problems.

Celeste:

Yeah, I tried to make sure that we were moving at a pace that was equal to the changes that were happening within the organization. So if your organization is going through change, which all of them are, you know, it's either a turnaround, a startup, or, you know, um, or trying to get it back on track. And whatever those strategies are within the organization, you embed diversity and inclusion into the strategy. So you embed it into your talent practices. So I'll give you an example. If an organization is going to, they need to build a certain capability around AI, for example, which a lot of organizations are. And so they don't have that capability within their organization at the time. And so they need to go out and they need to hire people that understand and can put strategies together to really get the organization to understand and leverage AI in a way that helps to off the bit the performance of the business. Well, from a diversity standpoint, there's there's all kinds of things in there, diversity and inclusion standpoint. So, first of all, in the hiring practice, as you're going out and you're sourcing these individuals, where are you sourcing them from? Where are you recruiting from? Are you recruiting from different areas of the country that is gonna allow you to have a very different, not just different differences in what people look like, but also differences in their perspectives and how they view AI and getting all of those different people in your recruiting process so you can bring in a group of people who are really gonna be able to help you to write those strategies, but do it in a way that you get different perspectives and different points of view coming from not just their functional and technologically sound capabilities, but also their cultural awareness as well. So when you're putting algorithms together, for example, for an AI program, and you don't consider that there's bias within a certain algorithm and how you're looking at it, well then that is problematic. So, so you know, I I you try to make sure that as I said earlier, you're on the inside as they're developing strategies, so you can integrate them into whatever it is that the changes that the organization is going through. If you're you know, you need to reach new markets that a particular product isn't doing well, okay. Well, have you gone into XYZ market? Have you considered this, this, this audience and these customers? If you haven't, why not? And what's getting in the way of them being able to experience the the product that you are selling? Um you know, doing that analysis, the marketing research, and the understanding your customer base and saying, well, why is it that women aren't buying our product? Or why is it that young people, Generation Z, aren't buying our product? Understanding that and putting strategies in place to reach those individuals and those customers, that's diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so, as we're doing that body of work, that's what I mean by you, all organizations, as if you understand, that's why I always tell people, if you're in this in this work around diversity and inclusion, you have to have strong business acumen because you need to understand where the organization is going and then embed the diversity and inclusion strategies within those aspects of the organizational change that's happening.

Emma:

You mentioned before when you were talking about speaking with with people in other countries and and you would sort of speak broadly about you know that the frameworks and what you were actually doing without using the the words themselves. And and people seem quite accepting of that and and understand the the logic of that. And then when you use the words, there's often a certain reaction, I guess. Do you do you think that's down to, I don't know, some of the misunderstandings perhaps around DEI or myths around DEI? Do you think it's kind of, I don't know, got a bit of a bad rap at certain times through misunderstanding as of to what it actually is?

Celeste:

Yeah, so this was back, like I said, 10, 9 years ago. And diversity inclusion was very much um a US concept. It was basically this is something that is a problem in the United States because of this, because of that, because of you know, whatever reason. But once I had those conversations with people in different across different countries, and then I would introduce the words equ equity, diversity, and inclusion, the light bulb would go off, and they'd say, Oh, I understand now. Because I was talking about differences in people and what do they need to do to leverage, um, create that inclusive culture so you can get the most out of the people. Because there's nobody, no leader that doesn't agree that they need to get the most out of their organization, out of the people in the organization. And so when you phrase it in that way, it was so it was like a light bulb. You could literally see the light off in their heads. And and I tell you, it was it was just quite a rev, it was it was truly a revelation and then a revolution because it just spread like wildfire. The the diversity and inclusion strategies that developed in the different countries, the councils, the employee resource groups, that all just that they got it, they understood it because it helped them from to create and get the most out of the people. It helped them to create better, you know, commercialization strategies. And just it was just really, really even from the standpoint of RD too, and research and development, and and saying, okay, what types of products do we need to or services do we need to create and doing that research, but doing that research with people across different spectrums of diversity.

Emma:

And over your your tenure with the organization, what did that what did that look like, I guess, in terms of adoption, implementation, results, success? It it must have been quite a journey, I'd imagine, over that period of time.

Celeste:

Yeah, it was definitely a journey. And you have to make sure that you are putting, and when you're putting a strategy together, and like I said, it's organizational change strategy, you have Different milestones where you stop and smell the roses. And what I say is smell the roses, you stop and you say, okay, have we progressed? And you have to do like sort of an assessment. You have to say, okay, how have we progressed? Have we progressed? Are we headed in the right direction? And you have, you know, different things, you know, whether that be metrics from the standpoint of, you know, pulse surveys, for example, surveys where you're climate surveys, engagement surveys, culture surveys, where you really hear from the people what's working, what's not working, doing focus groups as well, talking with people, skip levels and things like that, which I did a lot of those across the globe. But listening to people and say, this is working, this isn't working, and then having the uh, you know, the empath, not the empathy, but but listening to people, active listening, and so you can understand if you need to course correct. And then, you know, the thing about it is it wasn't I, you know, the team we we created the strategy in the strategic framework, but we gave it to the leaders and said, implement it as best you know how through your organization priorities. And and that's kind of how what was what made it work because it wasn't me forcing it down their throats. Yeah. It was basically, you know, this is gonna work because it's gonna help me optimize my people, it's gonna help me make better leaders, it's gonna help, you know, our business. And once they understood that, that was, you know, that was sort of the the empowerment that they needed in empowering them to go and make those decisions, that's what made it work from that standpoint.

Emma:

Yeah, I I really like that that inside out approach that you spoke about. I think that makes a lot of sense of, and I think often just from my own perspective, when I hear talk of DEI, it's often the other way around. It's often purely just around hiring and who we're hiring and how we're hiring. And I think personally that feels like a very sort of narrow frame. But when you actually hear about it from the organizational perspective and and how you're you know reflecting the the breadth of people that you've got in the organization and how they think and how they approach things and support that they might need, then it makes a lot of it makes a lot of sense in in that perspective. But it just seems that yeah, often it just gets talked about through that very one sort of quite quite narrow, narrow lens. Yeah. In terms of in terms of that, the recruitment piece, and and you sort of talked about making sure that you go out to as wide a group as possible and you're using lots of different channels so that a diverse group of people get to hear about the opportunity or or engage with the opportunity. How does that sort of work in in practical terms? Again, I think one of the, and it may be a myth, I I don't know, the this idea of actually putting kind of quotas essentially on things. Is that something that comes up, is real, is not real, that you've seen, that you've dealt with? Talk to me about that part of it.

Celeste:

Yeah, it's not about quotas. I you know, I use the phrase, it's not about it's not about counting people, it's about making people count. And so, you know, a lot of times on the you know, we you use the recruiting example, it's about okay, what are the skills and the capabilities that are needed for the role and and then making sure that you are going and and you know spreading the net wide to get those skills and capabilities embodied in people who look across the spectrum of different ways and identities. That's how you approach it. It's the it's not, oh, I'm lowering the standard if I want to go after a woman or a person with a disability or et cetera. You're not lowering the standard of the performance or the quality of the work or the role. You basically have identified these are the skills, the capabilities, the experience that we need for the role. And you go and you recruit and send out the information across a spectrum across the country to say, hey, all come. We want everybody who has these skills and capabilities to come and and uh and interview with us. And a lot of times we don't do that. We sort of go to this one place, or we do go to this one, you know, university or or you know, one or two universities, or we don't spread the the the net wide so we can get those skills and capabilities, but through embodied in different types of people.

Emma:

I I think I think back to a conversation I had, and it was a while ago now, it's probably gosh, 10, 12 years ago when I was in recruitment and I had gone to a meeting with one of the banks here, and they were wanting to hire developers, which is a a skill which does tend to have a lot more men in that space than women still does, it's changing, but that's you know, that's kind of historically how it's been. And the the internal recruiter basically said, just send us women. We we have to hire women, and we were, you know, well, there's not that many, and that's going to be quite challenging. And and then the next thing they said was, it doesn't matter if they're any good or not, just send them. Like we have to hire women. And I remember so clearly sitting in this meeting going, something's gone really wrong here. And and the more kind of questions I asked, it was that they'd actually their their personal incentives were tied to shifting that to that percentage of women in the space. And you kind of step back and you think, well, I can understand that that's coming from a good place, that there's a you know, there's a genuine desire there to make a change, excellent, but the mechanism is so clunky and and to the earlier point, probably too short term that you've just ended up with this kind of force fit, really, you know, not fit for fit for purpose kind of framework that's just gonna end up with a a poor a poor outcome for for anyone. And I remember just kind of well, I yeah, I just didn't want to be part of it and said, I don't think I'm gonna be able to help. Like this isn't this isn't for me. I I don't want to put someone in that in in that scenario, but I'd imagine it's that type of misunderstanding or or kind of again misuse that that you potentially come up against.

Celeste:

Yeah, that is that is complete misuse of of and it's reinforcing the stereotype that Well exactly.

Emma:

That was my problem with it.

Celeste:

Yeah, people don't look like you are inferior, right? And in this case, in your example, women. And it's basically, you know, it's it's okay to say, you know, I want to make sure that I have a diverse slate of candidates, or I want I want to make sure that you are doing your due diligence and making sure that I see a variety of different people across a lot of different lifestyles or whatever. But at the essence and at the core is these are the skills, these are the capabilities, these are the experiences that are needed for the job. Yeah. And then it's up to the recruiters, the you know, talent acquisition per folks, or the recruiters and staffers to say, okay, we understand what is needed, we know the the skills, the capabilities, the level of experience. Now we're gonna go out and get those candidates. And it's just, you know, and and maybe where you go to get those candidates, um, you have to make sure that they're qualified. That's you know, that's rule number one. You know, any organization, they want to make sure they have qualified candidates. And and you know, that person saying, you know, I don't care if they are they they are good or not, I just need all women. You know, in most countries, that's I think that's illegal. I know it is in the United States, but across most countries, it's illegal to say that.

Emma:

Yeah.

Celeste:

So, you know, there doesn't even you shouldn't have to. We need to get to a place where you don't even have to say that. You don't even have to say, you know, I want all women or I want this or I want that. You basically just say, these are the skills and the capabilities that I need and the experience. Now go out and get me candidates. And if the recruiter is worth their salt, if they're good, they know to go out and get those those skills and those capabilities. And they know that those skills and capabilities and that experience exist and is embodied in people that look very, very different across a spectrum of different dimensions of diversity and identities. And so that's what they need to do. The core is the skills, the capabilities, and now you know, go out and get those people.

Emma:

Yeah, it it was just it's kind of burned in my memory because it was.

Celeste:

Yes, we we we hope that they have.

Emma:

Indeed, indeed. The final question, Celestine, it's always the the final question here, and that is what do you know now that you wish you knew then?

Celeste:

Oh, I wish that. Oh wow, I wish I had the knowledge that I have now back when I was getting started because I, you know, this this type of a role, because you can't possibly know everything there is to know about every single culture across every country in the world. And so it's a job that you're you're in this continuous spirit of continuous learning all the time, you know, learning from people, learning from people across different cultures and experiences, life experiences, who look like you, who don't look like you, and and have different perspectives, etc. And so what I I you know uh hindsight is 2020, I guess. Always that learning at an early stage that you have to have that spirit of learning, of continuous learning all the time, and never acting like you know it. You're yeah, I know everything, because you can't. And I've had many, many missteps where I had this, I thought, oh, I'm a leader, I I have to know all of this stuff, and you don't. Your real authenticity, your real connection, and building trust with your team is showing that vulnerability and working together, rolling your sleeves up and working together. Yes, you set a uh a vision and a direction as a leader, but you work together to get to that that vision and operationalize it.

Emma:

Absolutely. Thank you, Celeste. Really enjoyed the conversation. Appreciate you taking the time and yeah, sharing your your knowledge and your skills. So thank you very much. Much appreciated. Thank you. Before you go, I've got a quick favour to ask. If you enjoyed this episode or something in it resonated with you, I'd love it if you could leave a quick review or rating on Apple Podcasts. It's one of the best ways to help more people find the show, and I love to hear what's landing with you. Just scroll down in the app, tap a star rating, and if you've got 30 seconds, leave a few words too. Thanks again for listening. I really appreciate it.

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Emma Graham

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