Your Career Journey

✨ Changing Career Direction Without Starting Over. With Kate Greenwood

• Emma Graham

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What do you do when the career path you’ve been on since university no longer feels right?

In this episode, I’m joined by Kate Greenwood, who shares her incredibly honest journey from a traditional career in family law to a leadership role in legal tech and innovation.

Kate talks about the reality of stepping away from a clearly defined path, including the identity shift that comes with saying “I’m not sure this is for me anymore.” She also shares how she repurposed her deep knowledge of family law without starting again from scratch, and how that opened the door to a completely new, fulfilling chapter in her career.

Today, Kate is leading the integration of AI and technology within her firm, showing what’s possible when you stay curious, have courageous conversations, and recognise the value of your transferable skills.

We also dig into:

  • What it really looks like to pivot your career inside your organisation
  • How technology is reshaping the legal profession
  • The importance of open dialogue with managers and leaders
  • Why your skills and experience are far more adaptable than you think

If you’re feeling stuck on your current path or wondering what else might be possible for you, this conversation is a brilliant place to start.

Your host, Emma Graham, Career Coach and ex-recruiter, is here to help you with:

💡 Gain clarity on what’s important to you
💡 Confidently communicate your value
💡 Build a personal brand and a strong network
💡 Take a strategic approach to your next move
💡 Navigate the job market effectively
💡 Build career confidence with a repeatable success blueprint

🌐 Explore my coaching programs and free resources:
Website: https://www.egconsulting.au/
LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/emmajgraham
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmagrahamcareercoach/

🎁 Free Resources:
📄 CV Development Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/cv-advice
📄 LinkedIn Profile Optimisation Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/linkedin-profile-guide

📅 Book Your FREE Career Strategy Discovery Call:
https://calendly.com/emmagrahamconsulting/discovery-call

Emma:

Hello and welcome to Your Career Journey, the podcast designed to be your compass through the twists and turns of career development. How do you shift your career without starting all over again? In this episode, I'm chatting with Kate Greenwood about the moment she realised the traditional legal path that she'd been on since university just wasn't the right fit anymore. Kate walks us through how she made a big change without losing the value of her experience and how she used her skills in a totally new way to create a career path that she now loves. Kate Greenwood, welcome. Thank you, Emma.

Kate:

So nice to be here.

Emma:

You're very, very welcome. When you were first thinking about, probably when you were leaving school or as you were coming to the end of your school journey and you know, thinking about that big looming career that was over the horizon, was it always the law that you were attracted to? Tell me. Tell me about it.

Kate:

Yeah, I'd say my career path from school to where I am now was, or to from school to working as a graduate lawyer was very traditional. So I loved legal studies from the moment I was exposed to it, which was in year 10. Um, and I never really had that worry about what am I going to do. It was all I was always going to be a lawyer, and so I went straight from school into law at uni, and yeah, I loved the study, loved the uni community, loved the amazing network that I formed there. I did arts law at uni. I majored in Chinese or Mandarin, which was a bit unusual at the time. Hugely challenging for me too because I had never studied that language before I got to uni, but I just wanted to do something different. So yeah, that was my uni experience, and then I did three seasonal clerkships, which are like our internships in the law world, uh, in my penultimate year of uni at different firms, and and one of those firms was Landor and Rogers, which is where I still am. Um, I then commenced a graduate position in 2011 and did four rotations through different groups at the firm, and I was really drawn to family law for several reasons. So I commenced as a graduate lawyer the following year in the family law team.

Emma:

Do you get to try out different, do you get to kind of move between departments and get a sense of which part of the law you want to specialise in, or do you have to kind of make that choice up front?

Kate:

Yeah, yeah, that's right. So in our graduate year at Landon, I think different firms have different programs, but we have an opportunity to rotate through four different groups. So I chose family and then three other of our practice groups at Landers, which is an amazing opportunity, I think, for us, because when you're at uni, you really don't have that same experience and you really don't know what you what you want to do. So uh yeah, that that year is broken up into four different experiences, three different different groups, yeah.

Emma:

And you and you get to make that decision for yourself at the end.

Kate:

Yeah, you put in so you put in preferences, and if your preferences align with the you know strategic ambitions of the firm and there's capacity for that, then that's where you land, and and that's that was my experience. So I commenced as a family lawyer, yeah, after my after my grad year.

Emma:

And then I And how was it? How was family law?

Kate:

I loved it at that time, and I I I worked as a family lawyer for six years. So, you know, as as soon as I landed in the team, I was running my own files, I was meeting my own clients, and I I really enjoyed it. It was only in 2017, but just after I fell pregnant with my first child, I kind of started having thoughts about whether or not it was it was the right kind of long-term career for me. And that was pretty significant and scary for me at that time because I had followed that really traditional path from school, uni, seasonal clientships grad, and straight into the big kind of commercial firm. Um, and I always intended for my career to be one of those set and forget careers, and it was also the pathway of all my colleagues at the time, too. Yeah, um, no one really left, so yeah, that was significant. But then I commenced a year of parental leave, um, which gave me a lot of time to think. So I didn't have that really stuck and confused feeling while at work for that long, which might be the experience of people that you work with, Emma, that they feel that real discomfort and real uncertainty while they're on the job. I did I don't think I really had that for that long, so I was quite fortunate in that timing.

Emma:

What was that feeling? If it wasn't, if it wasn't that, what what was it? Are you able to do that?

Kate:

I I think I still had it, but I had it while I wasn't working, and so maybe it was easier for me. Um yeah, and I think I found comfort in this idea that whatever I did next may not be the right thing and it may not be for the long term, but I knew that I didn't want to go back to the role that I had.

Emma:

It takes a bit of the pressure off, doesn't it? Of people not trying to find like the next perfect step or whatever I do next, I'm gonna do for the next 30 years. Like that's that's a lot of pressure to put on yourself.

Kate:

Which is what which was kind of my previous experience in that I I that's exactly what I thought I would do. So I was quite comfortable in in that and knowing that whatever I decided was the would be the right thing based on what I knew at that time. So I was actually offered a role as an in-house lawyer in a tech company uh while I was on leave still, and on reflection that never would have went tower. I had no corporate in-house experience. I'd been a private law litigator in family law for six years, but perhaps that kind of showed where I was, I I knew that I didn't want to go back to that previous role. Anyway, the stars kind of aligned for me because when I attempted to resign from my lawyer role at Landers, my boss was really understanding, and he asked that I remain at the firm but take on the responsibility of the innovation portfolio for the family law team. And that was about 70 years ago now, and that was just so exciting for me, and was also a real reflection, I think, of the the leadership in the team in supporting what was a quite significant transition off the tools into a role that was really aligned with what I wanted to do. Um, and also the ambitions of the firm, too, that maybe we didn't quite know it, but we were about to hit a really big innovation boom in the legal market, and the legal tech market was just about to really take off. Um, and our firm has been quite instrumental in leading that the the legal profession through that that change. So, yeah, that that that that's how it all kind of happened for me, and it was exciting because I knew the law, I knew what it was like to be a lawyer as a family lawyer, and the challenges and frustrations that they experienced, and I knew what clients were like too, and the experience of clients because I'd had so many of them. So I really felt that I had an opportunity to improve both experiences of the of the legal team and also uh externally for our clients as well.

Emma:

Very cool. Yeah, going uh going back to that conversation that you had with your leader when you're there to resign, like you've been letter in my back is it, but yeah, you're like ready to go and and kind of thinking about what comes next. It it always strikes me that the the conversation around either resignation or perhaps someone who's thinking of leaving or has resigned and and the period of time that that comes next, I feel there's such a missed opportunity there for so many organizations because obviously, as the individual, how you behave in in that scenario is is very important as well. But from the employer's perspective, like his response, sorry, I said his, is it was it a heap? He or she's response. Yeah, his response to that, to you saying that, you know, if he'd have got, I don't know, defensive or you know, it had the conversation had gone in a different way, you probably wouldn't be sat where you are now. But by having a a much more open conversation and and kind of I would imagine asking questions and you know, trying to ascertain, well, what's going on for you? Like, can we talk about it? Tell me what you're thinking and feeling, it opens up an avenue that that I would imagine you didn't even know existed. You know, it wasn't in your mind to to kind of stay but move into a a different a different role. Yeah, tell me a bit more about or or what you can about that conversation and and the way that that kind of played out.

Kate:

Yeah, I think you summarised it well. I definitely didn't foresee it coming, if I'm really honest. I as I said, I had my letter of resignation in my bag, but I felt such relief when it was offered, when that position was offered to me because it felt right, and what incredible leadership as well. Up because yeah, really working with an employee and trying to determine what aligns with their values, I think. Um, and and not that I remember every minute of that conversation, but I'd imagine it's a bit of a blur. It is but and I think I have done a lot of values work since then, so maybe that's what's kind of framing my response to this question. But I remember saying that I really struggled with being in combat all day, and that was my role as a litigation lawyer. That's that that's what you do, you're you're fighting all day.

Emma:

You're fighting for your client, yeah.

Kate:

Yeah, yeah, or you're fighting for them or with them. And I really don't like conflict, that doesn't align with my personality at all. So um, it's just a shame that it took me so long to realise that. I think I really liked the law intellectually, but my personality didn't quite match the career, and I really wear my heart on my sleeve, so um uh and as an extension of that, uh, the emotional part of being a family lawyer was probably what I found really tricky too. So taking on clients' problems, and there's a real difference between being empathetic and standing in their shoes and being compassionate, and my natural state was as an empath, and that can really take its toll. And I think I mentioned that in that meeting with him, in that it wasn't that I didn't love the team and or anything like that, and that's probably what made like resigning in Inverticomas so hard because I really did I really did love the firm and I felt I I felt it was an amazing place. It was just that that role wasn't right for me long term, yeah.

Emma:

And in terms of the the the role that you're now doing, did the conversation get as far as that in that in that initial conversation, or was it more a kind of a give me a couple of days, I'd I'd like to you know see what else we can do, and and then coming back to you with a with another opportunity? How how did that kind of pan out?

Kate:

It's it's a really interesting one because at that time, which was 2018, the role and the discussion was much more about let's try and improve our internal processes. Like we've got so many applications here that we really think there's a lot of room for improvement and continuous improvement. That was then. Um, and then since then, as I mentioned before, there's been like a really significant uplift in technology and the legal tech market. Um, fintech was a thing then, but legal tech wasn't as much. So we've now seen like a huge flooding of the market in terms of technologies and those that are designed to really transform legal practice. That idea did not exist in 2018, or that was my experience anyway. So since then, my role has gone and really shifted. I still do like a lot of kind of internal improvements, but now we're really looking at how we can make a fundamental change to the way that we practice and improve it for our clients as well. And I'd say that because of the size of our team, our family law team at Landers, I've got 130 people working in family law exclusively across our three offices, Melbourne, Sydney, and Briston. That I think we have a responsibility as well to really to lead change and particularly in the family law space. So yeah, that the role has changed significantly since that first discussion and like quite organically, but it's been supported by a real shift in the in the landscape and and the market, and also really well supported by what's happening across our firm as well.

Emma:

How did you feel leaving behind that kind of you know, quote unquote lawyer identity? Because I guess at that point you've invested what 10 or so, maybe 12 or so years in in terms of the time you've spent at uni, the time you spent with the firm. Was that difficult to do? Did it did it take a bit of kind of I don't know, figuring out? Yeah, tell tell me about that.

Kate:

Yep. I still find that really hard, and I I think there's a certain status or identity, even ego that comes with being a lawyer, and maybe that's part industry based, but also it takes a really long time to get there. It's a really it's a pretty long road, as you said. So, and I knew from when I was 16 that I would be a lawyer and that there was no other career for me. Um, and it's not only a hang-up that I have, it's a hang up that other people in the industry have as well. I had a lawyer at a social event comment to me only like two weeks ago. They asked, you know, when are you going back to practice? You can't keep innovating forever. And that was a pretty bold comment, but it was also a real reflection, I think, on that the law is still quite a traditional place, and that despite this like enormous and transformative innovation boom in the profession, that people still have quite a traditional mindset. So yeah, I still find it tricky. I have maintained my practising certificate, and I think that I do well, I know I definitely still need it in my role. I still draft a lot of material. I drafted a cost agreement this week, so it's certainly I I've held on to it and legally I probably need it anyway, but uh I do find it tricky, and I still it is an identity shift massively, and I still find it hard explaining what I do. Yeah, no, yeah, but I don't work in family lot, yeah. It's really hard, and I like watch people's eyes get like gloss over and get confused, so yeah, it's that that is an ongoing issue for me, I if I'm completely honest about it. But at the same time, I I wouldn't change that path at all. It's definitely been the right move for me, and I couldn't do my role without having that legal practice background as well. Yeah.

Emma:

Yeah. It it's interesting, like what you were saying before about sort of you're on the pathway, and and as you were kind of saying it, it did feel very structured, and you know, it's a ladder of you you do your legal studies in school and then you choose the law at university, and then you do your internships, and then you do this, and then you do this. Like it is very structured, and like anything, I think I can see that there would be both pros and cons to that. Like when you're in it and you're thinking, This is what I want to do, I want to be in the law. I'd imagine that that structure is really helpful because you don't have to think about well, what's next? Do I want to do this? Do I want to do that? What will it look like? Because the next step is laid out for you. It's it's it's part of the the framework. But then I also wonder if the framework perhaps carries you along maybe further than you would have otherwise gone, like if that framework didn't exist and and that next step and the step after and the step after weren't so planned. And I don't mean you specifically, I mean one. Like I wonder if you would ask different questions or question yourself sooner in that process. Do you do you understand? Am I being clear in what I'm I'm saying? Yes, yes.

Kate:

Absolutely. I I think there's a there's a certain comfort that comes with it too.

Emma:

Yeah, because you just yeah, like I said, I think it's pros and cons. It's I don't have to keep second guessing myself because it's yeah, it's laid out for me. Yeah.

Kate:

Yeah, and this is it. I'll be a graduate and then I'll be a senior associate, and then I'll be a sorry, a graduate, a lawyer, and then a senior associate. It's very it is very structured. Whereas in my role now, there's it's not as certain, but I'm okay with that, and maybe that's a personality thing too. I'm okay with uncertainty, that's maybe a reflection of certain things that have happened in my life. I I I'm I'm alright with that. I actually kind of find it exciting, and yeah, and and that's that's the landscape that I work in anyway, because the technology landscape is so uncertain, there's something new happening all the time, so it works for me. But yeah, there is certainly a level level of comfort that comes with that really traditional lawyer path. Yeah, yeah.

Emma:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of probably not that many professions where that that sort of job for life idea probably still exists. I I would imagine medicine's probably one of the other ones, and I'm sure maybe finance accounting is is up there too. But I think for so many other people, and certainly in the last I'd say 10 to 15 years, that's really changed. And and I think a lot of people now don't necessarily think of their their career in that way. And again, like I'm saying, no right or wrong. I just think it's interesting to to kind of understand the the differences and and kind of how it feels when you're when you're in that. And and to your point about uncertainty as well, I think, and and feeling comfortable with uncertainty. I do just think that's gonna become ubiquitous across kind of all roles as time goes on. And like you say, the more technology comes into play, the more AI comes into play. I actually think it's it's almost going to become a key skill for the individual to be able to just have that that level of comfort with uncertainty because I just think more and more we're we're not gonna know, and we're not gonna know what it's gonna look like in five years, let alone 10 years or or 15 years.

Kate:

And then I guess how do you which I'm okay with, but it is quite people are quite overwhelmed by that.

Emma:

Yeah.

Kate:

So how do you cut through that noise and stay on track and not be overwhelmed by it? And my advice on that is to have a really clear understanding of your businesses, and I obviously work in a law firm, but have an understanding of the strategic direction of the firm or your business or your organization. Because if you have that and you're involved in those discussions, which again is like um really key, then whatever is thrown at you or whatever technologies in my situation or ideas, whatever is presented to you, it's much easier to make decisions about those technologies or ideas if you have a really clear understanding of where the business is going. And that would that could be like in 12 months, or it could be for us in my position, it's our 20-30 strategy. So I know what we want to achieve in terms of profit and growth and the overall position of our team, and so it makes it much easier for me when I'm looking at different ideas to ensure that they align with that with that strategy, and it takes the overwhelm out of it.

Emma:

Yeah, yeah, I can see how that would make a difference, and and that sort of, and I think certainly if if someone, as in your example, has a seat at the table, I agree that makes a huge difference because you're part of the conversation. But even for someone that doesn't, I think if there's a level of transparency so they can still see where that strategy is going and what that longer term idea is, I think that transparency perhaps takes away some of the fear perhaps, and uh around that uncertainty and and not knowing what the what the future looks like. I learnt a new phrase, word, acronym this morning, which was I don't know if you've heard it before, which was FUD, fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Oh kind of an all and an all-encompassing for kind of all those all those things. So having just learnt it, I'm gonna use it.

Kate:

Every day.

Emma:

Every day, yeah.

Kate:

And I'd say to that point on transparency, our group is really good at that. And it's really important to our team that everyone in the group is across where what our partners plan for in terms of the group's direction in the next five years.

Emma:

Yeah. As part of the the technology side of your role, Kate, I would imagine that you're at the kind of the forefront of what the firm's doing with AI and how that's gonna look and how that works, and how that might already be working. Are you able to talk around that a little bit?

Kate:

Yeah, sure. So AI is obviously everywhere, it's it's everywhere in law and it's everywhere in the legal tech market, and and the law is right for it. So it's it's really exciting for us. Our firm has several quite significant, I would say, initiatives and pilots that that are currently that it's currently running. We have an AI lab, we have a Law Tech Hub where we partner with legal tech startups, and we partnership, we have partnerships with other AI startups as well. So we have access to kind of the latest and most advanced tech in in the industry. We also have an AI steering committee, which is made up of uh lawyers from across the firm, and I'm on that committee, and and we guide strategic alignment and safe scaling with the legal tech as well as kind of exploring the latest legal tech too and making recommendations to the firm as to what we should consider. Over 10 of the technologies that we use at the moment have AI built into them. And to be honest, most legal tech applications that we that are on the market now will have AI built into them in in some capacity. One of the exciting things about AI is that it really supports smarter scoping and and and and also pricing, which means that we can explore different pricing models, and that's something that we're that we're looking at as well, uh Atlanders and and across the industry as well. It's quite a topical point. So, yeah, there's lots happening in in the AI space, certainly here at Landers and and yeah, across the profession.

Emma:

Really interesting as you were saying that the thought that kind of popped into my mind, in contrast perhaps to the earlier part of our conversation where you were saying the law's very traditional, you know, we still think in these very traditional ways, and you know, blah blah blah. And then there you are, you've got an AI steering committee, and you know, we've got a we've got an AI lab and we've got all this technological innovation. Um, based on your earlier comment, the second comment is not something that I would necessarily expect to hear. Like that's really that's really cool that they're so invested. And I mean, I guess we can all see that's the way it's going, but just because we know that's the way it's going doesn't mean that everyone's kind of you know invested and and in there at the cutting edge.

Kate:

That's right. And look, I I'd say that what I do and what other people in my role do is is to try and lead change, and to do that effectively, you really have to understand the mindset of the people that you um work with or or for, and mine are are lawyers. So um there's a guy by the name of Dr. Larry Richards who's a leading expert on the psychology of lawyer behaviour, and we know based on his research that lawyers typically rate really highly for some quite challenging personality traits. Um one is skepticism, so they rate really highly for skepticism, which is really helpful for their careers. I guess it makes sense, yeah, totally. And yeah, they're rewarded for that, right, in their careers, but it's a problem for innovation. They also rate really highly for autonomy, so lawyers don't like being told what to do, which is also tricky when you're trying to lead change. Yeah, and they rate really highly for urgency as well, so they want things to happen really quickly and effectively. But those traits could can make lawyers really adverse to change. So, what I know from from that research and also my experience just working with lawyers is like the worst thing that you can do when you want them to try something new is to tell them that they have to. Because their skeptical brain says, Well, these these are all the reasons that we shouldn't do that. And their autonomous brain says, Don't tell me what to do, just let me get back to my job. So there's some really effective ways to to drive change, but it it takes it takes a bit of work, and and it's really it's really important, I think, to, and I can talk to those to those drivers if you like, but it's really important to know what works in order to roll out these amazing AI programs that we have, and to really encourage lawyers to to try and and change the way they practice. One of those ways is, and I always recommend this as well, is to have like a pilot group of champions. So in your firm or your organization, you'll always have someone, or depending on like the scale of your your group, you'll always have people that are interested in this stuff. So when non-believers see people using it, it lowers the risk for them and they they are more inclined to jump on board. So I always use a pilot group of champions. Um the other thing is like, and and we're really trying to do this as well, is to encourage the leaders to get their hands dirty with the technology. It's a super powerful tool. It's uh leading from the top, it's not like something that we haven't heard before, but it is very powerful if you can see your leaders doing it. Um you can also, and this is I'm obviously talking to about lawyers here, but I'm sure it applies to other A-type personalities, is you give them something small to begin with, so like kind of bite-sized pieces can really lead to a shift in their overall behavior. And look, these things are like they're imperfect, they don't always work. But it's what we try and do to drive change across the firm. And also, as I mentioned before, being involved in the overall strategy of the team is is really helpful because it means that whatever tech that you're introducing to the broader group or you're attempting to introduce is directly linked to your group's strategic goals. And that just means that you're not chasing the next shiny thing that comes to you because that's a huge risk in innovation, but it helps you stay on track and it's much more satisfying as well.

Emma:

Yeah, I think that's a real danger, isn't it? That kind of technology for technology's sake, or as you say, whatever the new shiny object is, or the new must-have piece of software or or whatever. I'd imagine that's quite a slippery, a slippery and expensive slope too. That's right, and it goes out.

Kate:

Because you'll look at something and it looks amazing, and you think, wow, this is so great. But is it resolving firstly, is it going to resolve any sort of issue that we currently have for either us or our clients? And does it help us get to where we want to be in the next five years? Yeah. And if it's a no and a no, then yeah.

Emma:

Yeah, then it's a no. Yeah.

Kate:

Yeah.

Emma:

How has your own, I guess, uh level of understanding around technology evolved? I guess coming from the family law side of things, you're you're using technology in an everyday sense, but you know, I I would imagine you're, you know, you haven't studied technology, it's not a space that you've kind of come up through. How have you found that transition and and kind of how have you gone about evolving and expanding your skills in that space?

Kate:

Yeah, that's a great question, and it's it's a really important one. So I had no experience at all. As I said, I I didn't do tech at uni either. There's a couple of things that I've I've done, some like short courses, even on what's been really helpful in my role as well, like project management type courses, because when you're a lawyer, you run files, and that's all I knew. Now I run projects, so a really significant shift in my day-to-day. So I just wanted to mention that. Like obviously, it's not tech, but it's something that I that I needed to learn. I've also learnt on the job a lot, and I've also been so fortunate at my firm in that I now work with several in our internal teams, most of whom don't have a legal background, but like legal technologists, like people that like data scientists, all those types of people that I've never been exposed to before. You learn a lot from those people. And importantly, as well, you let them do what they specialise in as well. So I haven't tried to kind of jump the fence too much into what they're they specialise in, but you just I've learned a lot from my conversations with with those people and the projects that I've run with with them.

Emma:

Yeah.

Kate:

But I'm still learning.

Emma:

Yeah, I mean that we all, I mean, that never that never really stops, does it? I suppose that the flip side of that same coin is the transferable skills that you did have and the experience that you did have, and then transferring that into a new role. And along with the sort of the identity part, I guess, I I think that's a really interesting part of the conversation for people that are thinking about making a shift, perhaps not a wholesale change, but like a shift like you did, a pretty significant shift, but but still within the same organization, you know, within the same profession. I think it's easy sometimes to I think it's human nature that we default to the things, all the things that we don't know, or the experience that we don't have yet. And you know, I've got this gap here, and oh, and there's another one over here, without necessarily taking into account or perhaps weighing with enough significance all the skills and experience that we do have and how they can be transferred into the new space, the new roles, a new firm, whatever it might be. Can you can you talk to me a little bit around that side of it specifically, that kind of transferable skills piece, and how you thought about that and and I guess how you experienced that as well when you when you actually made the change?

Kate:

Sure. I think that was certainly my experience in that look, lawyers are far more valuable than they think, and legal skills are really well respected outside law as well. I and I don't think I I can say that now, but it's certainly not uh a view that I had at the time. And I don't think it's a view that's shared by lawyers that are nervous about making a a move. If if I think about the transferable skills, and I can talk obviously directly to family law, that um from the moment I commenced my career as a family lawyer, you know, I I mentioned this earlier, but you're thrown files the moment you land in the team, and you learn so much about people and their lives and their children and their businesses and the decisions that they've made, and being able to listen and relate to other humans, they're they're invaluable skills. I was also used to a really fast-paced environment and making decisions quickly as well. And you mentioned this, but the it's not only your skills that are that are transferable and important, but it's the experience that is so valuable too. And for me, I wouldn't be effective in my role if I didn't have the family law background or experience because I know what it's like to be a lawyer, I know what it's like walking into court or walking into a mediation or having a client cry, and you know, working with other accountants and professional services advisors for your clients. I I I I have all of that experience, and I know how challenging the entire process is for clients as well. That really helps in the role that I have now because I mentioned before about looking at when we're looking at new technologies and making sure they align with what the goals of the team are, but it's also being able to say that won't work for us, and that won't work for us because that's not an experience of our lawyers or our clients, or oh my goodness, that will be so helpful for us because I know exactly um the problem that it's trying to solve for family lawyers or for their clients. So it's more about that experience, I think, that is really valuable in my current role, and I don't think I'd be as effective in my role if I didn't have that background.

Emma:

No, absolutely. Again, I think often it's the way that in hindsight you can see exactly how it helps you and and how the two fit together, but it's interesting what you said about lawyers don't necessarily understand outside of the law what those skills mean or or the experience that they bring. I I don't think that's just true of lawyers, I think that's true of pretty much everyone, certainly the people that I speak to. Again, I think it's a little bit of human nature. I think there's a tendency to because you're so close to something and you do it every day, almost a little bit if you take it for granted, or you don't necessarily see its full value because well, that's just what I do, like that's just part of the day-to-day, and sometimes it it can take a an outside perspective or or someone else, or sometimes just time and distance to look at that thing and go, actually, that thing is super valuable. I take that for granted that I just do X, Y, and Z on a daily basis. But if I actually unpack that thing, you know, like you did with your examples there, if I actually unpack that thing, there's so many skills that actually go into that. I've just never really stopped to think about that before. And I think it often leads, yeah, it often leads to people saying things like, you know, if they're thinking about doing something different or not totally different, but in the way that you did, you know, transferring the skills that they've got into a slightly different space, not a 100% kind of wholesale change, they often seriously undervalue the skills and experience that they've already got, and you know, we'll say things like in your example, oh well, I've I've never been a project manager, so I don't know how to do that. Well, if you've run a file, if you've run a case, you do know how to do that because you've managed that project from start to finish. Okay, the context is different, but the skills that underpin that are actually the same. And I think sometimes just shifting thinking around that and and actually taking the time to, as I said, really think about the skills that sit under something. And it could be, you know, it could be as simple as something like I say, simple, it's not simple, but you know, all the study that you've done to go into the law. So, yes, you're moving into a new space in terms of technology, but you've got a phenomenal track record in terms of taking on new information, learning new information, proving that you understand that information and demonstrating it on the other side. Yes, it's in a slightly different context, but the process is actually the same, and so yeah, I just think transferable skills are, in my opinion, just tragically undervalued. Right. And you probably see that in your work all the time, yeah, yeah, and often tragically undervalued by the individual themselves because they haven't necessarily thought about them in that in that way. And also, I think in a broader context, I see it with the focus of wanting similar industry experience. So in I I work primarily with marketers, and and it can be a real issue for them that you know, if they want to move between industries, certain industries can be very reluctant to do that because they want someone that's come from the same industry that has only ever done that that thing, and so there's a real conversation around well, how do I how do I communicate what my transferable skills are? And you know, obviously, to a certain extent, marketing is marketing. If you understand the fundamentals, you can bring that into a different place, but I also think it's underpinned by that same principle that the individual doesn't always fully appreciate actually everything that they've done and then communicate that to the the new prospective employer. And at the end of the day, like all of those things are transferable skills, even if you were to stay on in or would have stayed on in family law or law but in a different capacity, still transferable skills.

Kate:

That's right, yeah.

Emma:

It's it's such an interesting uh story, Kate, and and thank you so much for sharing it. I mean, obviously the the specifics are a little bit different in in uh terms of law, but the the the principles and and what's kind of underneath it and the conversations and and how you've kind of made that transition, I is 100% relevant. And the other thing I really like about your story, it shows that to use a cliche that you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because your current role may not be what you see yourself doing for the next 10 or 15 years doesn't mean that you have to change every single thing about it. It it might just be, as you said in your example, actually aligning values a little bit better and actually realizing that well, look, I love the space, I I love the company, I love the culture, I love the law, but actually the specific role that I have within that bigger piece isn't really working for me. How can I change that part but keep the other parts the same? And I think often, yeah, people sort of knee-jerk might be to go too far and to get rid of it all and want to go off in a completely different direction. And as I say, one of the things that I'd particularly love about your story is it shows that you don't have to do that, that you can maintain the bits that you love and the bits that you really enjoy, and just focus on changing the bits that you don't.

Kate:

Right. And I'd say to that that I was quite fortunate in that this role was offered to me by someone that saw an opportunity for me. But maybe the message in my story is that if you aren't so fortunate to have that offered to you, that you ask the question yourself. Yeah, yeah. And that would be something that I would base based on what I've experienced and how much I enjoy my career now and the role that I'm in, that would be my advice to to people that are feeling a little bit stuck and feeling like that what they're doing isn't what they want to be doing long term.

Emma:

I I think that's great advice, and I I think there is often again, it maybe it's a little bit of fear or the or the FUD thing of people not wanting to have those types of conversations. And I understand why, like it's they're uncomfortable, they're not easy conversations to have. You don't know what kind of response you're going to get, but if the the culture of the organization is a positive one and and the leader you're talking to is a is a good one, and you're doing good work, they should want to retain you. And and so looking for different avenues within the business to be able to do that is actually a win-win for both, rather than you know, having to replace uh you and whatever role you you might have gone into. It's just perhaps yeah, being open enough to to have what might be a slightly uncomfortable conversation and and seeing where it goes.

Kate:

Yes, I agree with that. And maybe maybe since when I was thinking about this earlier, when I was offered this role, this was pre-COVID, you know, it was like seven or eight years ago. But I wonder if since then people are thinking more creatively about their careers, and maybe employers are more open to trying to find something that fits with someone that's not particularly enjoying their their role. Maybe that conversation isn't as hard as it previously would have been given the climate.

Emma:

Yeah, you you don't know unless you ask.

Kate:

Yeah, yeah.

Emma:

You know, I think it's one of those things that again, a bit of human nature, we can all build those things up in our head, we can all run the scenario a million times of oh my god, they're gonna freak out, they're gonna say this, they're gonna say that. But what if they don't? Like, what if it's like your experience and they sit there and say, okay, like we don't want to lose you, like let's let's figure this out. Like, what are the parts that you love? How can we maybe look at this differently? But you you don't know unless, like a lot of things, you don't know unless you ask.

Kate:

And I I love I love that what if. Um I don't know if you've if you follow the work of Julia Baird, but she wrote a one of a brilliant book called Phosphorescence, and I'm pretty sure it's in phosphorescence when she talks about what this like idea of what if, because we are conditioned to think, what if it doesn't work? What if it's a disaster? What if they fire me on the spot? But if you flip it and say, But what if what if that doesn't happen? And what if it's the discussion you've ever had? Yeah, yeah.

Emma:

What if it's amazing? What if I'm seven years in yeah, what if I'm seven years into a role that I love and still with the firm that I love and the people that I enjoy working with, you know? Absolutely. Um yeah, it's such a it's such an important, important message. Final question, Kate, and it's always the final question here, and that is what do you know now that you wish you knew then?

Kate:

Maybe it's similar to what we were just talking about, but I think if I was exploring a career change now, I would say don't jump into whatever falls in your lap because you're desperate to leave your current role. And and I did kind of do that because I did accept a role in a corporate space that really wasn't something that interests me all that much, but it was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, and I was fortunate enough not to have something else offered to me. But I would also say, yeah, instead of jumping at whatever is presented to you, have that have that discussion with your employer if you feel like there's something that could be like created for you in your in your current organisation. But I would also say that reach out to as many people as you can because people, as you know, Emma love talking about their careers. So I'd hustle, I'd reach out to as many people that work in a role that may interest, may interest you, and that I'd probably do that via LinkedIn, um, via your podcast, by consultants that are in your position, because I think those people will give you everything that um you need. And I'd also say that I think I mentioned this earlier, but be prepared that it might not work out. And that I I think that you do need to find comfort in that whatever choice that you make, made that you've made a really considered decision and you've made it based on what was right to you or what what what felt right at the time. Um, yeah, that would that that's that would be my advice to those types of people that are considering issues.

Emma:

Yeah. All really good advice, great advice actually, and I think on your point about engaging a network, in my experience, the vast majority of people are very, very willing to help and are incredibly kind and you know will take the time to talk it through with you, but they're not mind readers. You you need to articulate and be clear on what the help you're looking for is. I think often people can sort of reach out and and be a bit woolly or a bit fuzzy, or I'm just looking to have a chat, or like, oh, can I buy you a coffee? And sure, you you you know, you might get people who respond to that, but if you're much more clear and kind of say, I'm in this position, I'm thinking about this, I saw X, Y, and Z in your profile, and that really resonates. You know, do you have 15 to 20 minutes to talk me through how you made that move from A to B? Or in my experience, people are much more likely to respond to that. And as I said, I think the vast majority of people are kind and they want to help, and it's just yeah, absolutely. I think it's just yeah, it's being clear on on what you're actually asking for. But thank you so much, Kate. I as I said, I I really love your story, and I think there's so much in there that is very, very relatable and things that will I think resonate with people across all different kinds of industries and and roles. So thank you so much for for taking the time to to chat with me and to talking me through it. I really, really appreciate it.

Kate:

Thanks, Emma. Such an honour to be here. So thank you.

Emma:

Before you go, I've got a quick favour to ask. If you enjoyed this episode or something in it resonated with you, I'd love it if you could leave a quick review or rating on Apple Podcasts. It's one of the best ways to help more people find the show, and I love to hear what's landing with you. Just scroll down in the app, tap a star rating, and if you've got 30 seconds, leave a few words too. Thanks again for listening. I really appreciate it.

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Emma Graham

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