Building A Life You Love - Not Just A Career - with Briony Cullin

In this episode, I sit down with digital marketer and SEO consultant Briony Cullin to explore how trusting her intuition led her through a series of bold career and life changes, and ultimately helped her build a business and lifestyle she genuinely loves.

Briony shares her journey from studying and practising law to realising it wasn’t the right fit, a chance trip to Japan that unexpectedly changed the course of her life, and her move to Scotland for love. From navigating a new country and culture to transferring her skills into digital marketing at Yelp, Briony talks about the challenges and turning points that shaped her path.

The conversation also delves into freelancing, managing chronic illness alongside career ambitions, the evolution of SEO, and the freedom that comes with designing work around your life, not the other way around.

This episode is a thoughtful and honest discussion about career reinvention, trusting your instincts, balancing health and ambition, and creating a business that supports the life you want to live.

Perfect for anyone considering a career pivot, freelancing, or building a more intentional relationship with work.

To connect with Briony:
https://www.brionycullin.com/

Can you also find episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EmmaGrahamCareerCoach/videos

Your host, Emma Graham, Career Coach and ex-recruiter, is here to help you with:

 💡 Gain clarity on what’s important to you
 💡 Confidently communicate your value
 💡 Build a personal brand and a strong network
 💡 Take a strategic approach to your next move
 💡 Navigate the job market effectively
 💡 Build career confidence with a repeatable success blueprint

🌐 Explore my coaching programs and free resources:
 Website: https://www.egconsulting.au/
 LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/emmajgraham
 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmagrahamcareercoach/

🎁 Free Resources:
 📄 CV Development Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/cv-advice
 📄 LinkedIn Profile Optimisation Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/linkedin-profile-guide

📅 Book Your FREE Career Strategy Discovery Call:
 https://calendly.com/emmagrahamconsulting/discovery-call

Transcript

Emma 0:00

Hello and welcome to Your Career Journey, the podcast designed to be your compass through the twists and turns of career development. Today I'm joined by SEO consultant Briany Cullen to talk about how following her intuition changed her life and career path for the better. From studying and practicing the law, moving to Scotland for love after a chance meeting in Japan, starting to work in the digital marketing space, returning back to Australia and going out on her own to help with balancing her health. There's so much in this one. Join me to find out more. Thank you for joining me.

Briony 0:43

Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited about this conversation.

Emma 0:47

Awesome. Great to have you here. Let's kind of throw it throw it back to maybe when you were first starting to think about what you might want to do with your life, this thing called work and career. I know, it's so funny, isn't it? What were your initial thoughts?

Briony 1:04

Yeah. It's funny to like throw back to now, you know, when you're 16, 17, you're so young and you don't have like the world experience. So I didn't know what I wanted to do until my final year of high school when I started doing legal studies as a subject. And there was something about legal studies I just loved it. I was so interested in the law, in legislation. It really like clicked with my brain. But as I had only discovered it in year 12, I hadn't then chosen other subjects to kind of support me getting the score to get into law. So I took kind of a slightly, you know, a roundabout path. So from high school, I went and did a two-year advanced diploma to essentially become either like a conveyancing clerk or a legal secretary. I think I knew like I want to experience what this is like in the real world. Yeah. Before doing a law degree, like it was like, I wanna, I want to see what it's like. So I was essentially doing property transactions, so buying, selling real estate, like helping clients with that. Um while it's not the most rock and roll area of law, I did really like it and it really, it really made me think, oh no, this is what I want to do as a career. So I applied at the wise old age of 21 to be a mature law student. And then she's 21 and mature. The other students were like, she's actually not old enough. But at the time, so you know, this is like more than 20 years ago now, at the time to do a degree like online was unusual. We didn't have video conferencing and things like that. So I was doing the degree online with Deakin University and working full-time, and so it was a really intense six years of my life to be juggling those two things, but I was very focused on the like end result of like I can't wait to be a lawyer. Like I thought that was that was the pinnacle for me. Like, that's I was so excited about it.

Emma 3:19

And how was how was the reality of that when it actually happened?

Briony 3:25

Yeah, I think that like, and even though I had kind of set myself up of like, I want to practice, I want to the experience of working in a law firm while doing a degree, there was still something about it that wasn't me. I felt like I was almost like playing a role of like who I thought I had to be, and I thought there's parts of my personality that I have to suppress, I have to be a serious person, and I'm just not I'm just not a serious person. And also I had a really bad habit. I was a huge procrastinator, and that's not great when you're a student because you've got assignments to do. It's also really bad when you're doing property transactions in conveyancing. And I actually had like a skills session where the business had got in a coach because this was one of the top Australian law firms I was working for at the time, and she said, Oh, you're like a real, you've got a cliffhanger personality type, like you're feeding on the adrenaline of like the last minute. She's like, That's the worst personality type for this job, like yeah, and it was like that's a bit of a wake-up call. But now, actually, what a big learning for me was that I could change that, I could learn a better habit. And this is something, Emma, that you might find funny because the person that I learned it from from is a more well known in the UK than Australia, and he's a magician, his name is Darren Brown.

Emma 5:01

Yeah, yeah, I remember him.

Briony 5:04

He does a lot around like psychology and and the things that we tell ourselves and the stories that we tell ourselves, and in one of his books, he talked about what procrastination is and why we do it. And so to get around procrastinating rather than focusing on the painful of the assignment, you know, I've got this assignment to do, it's gonna be so painful, I really don't want to do it. You you practice focusing on how relieved you will be when you have done the task instead. And actually, if you do it a few times and really let yourself sit in that emotion of like, hey, it's the night before the assignment is due and I've done the assignment. Yeah, it is a really I'm chilled. And then then that's how you can break like procrastination being a really toxic, like toxic negative effect on your career. Um, and that for me was a really enlightening thing of okay, here's here's something that I'm doing that's like a self-sabotage, but I can change it, I can fix this. Um and so that was a really great thing that I wish I could, I wish Brianny back then knew how to how to not be a procrastinator.

Emma 6:20

It's a really good point, isn't it? Because I think some of those, you know, innate behavioural things when it comes to careers are certainly the information itself is incredibly worthwhile. I think the danger is sometimes they can be used to box people into certain streams or oh, you know, you're a super organised person, you should be XYZ, you're this, you shouldn't do this type of career or or whatever it is, which I really don't agree with. But I think the more important point that you hit on there is just because that's a behaviour or a habit that comes quite naturally to you doesn't mean that you can't change it. If you know it's there and you realize that it's not serving you, then you've got the power to actually be able to change that. And it's funny you you mentioned Darren Brown. He did really like reinvent himself, didn't he? Because he was like a TV magician in the UK, but now he's really kind of turned more to that kind of mentalist type show, and as you say, writes about behavioural change and all that kind of thing. It's really interesting. I love stuff like that too, I find it really fascinating.

Briony 7:29

Yeah, yeah. And that's what I wish, you know, to to put the label of like a cliffhanger on someone. Like I wish they had given me some kind of support. Yeah. And maybe, maybe at the time they didn't know how I could change that behaviour or or anything, but it was very much just like, okay, yeah, you really don't match the role that you're doing. Yeah. Like, okay, well, well what then?

Emma 7:51

You know, so um I think that's the danger, isn't it? Like it labels someone, and and that can really be quite quite damaging if if not kind of handled correctly.

Briony 8:03

Yeah. And I think only since then, like I've read that I can't remember what the book is, but it's the book all about whether you have a fixed mindset or a growth mindset. Like, do you think that you cannot change those qualities of yourself as a person? And being a procrastinator was something that I I didn't think I could ever change that. So, you know, that's been a very like liberating thing to learn. Um, but so I had been working in that role. It was actually like a maternity leave cover role. So the contract came to an end, and it was in 2009, which again that feels like a million years ago, but that was also when the global financial crisis hit. Yeah, it was not a great time to be a lawyer because the law firms were laying off huge amounts of the staff, you know, it was something like 20% at the firm that I was at. But I had just by kind of coincidence, I had booked a trip to go to Japan. And so I'd never gone overseas before. Why I picked Japan, it's because of my love of neighbours, the TV show, and they were talking about Japan in an episode, and I thought, wow, Japan sounds cool. I could go there, like just completely.

Emma 9:16

It's not the link that immediately springs to mind, is it? I went to Japan because of neighbors.

Briony 9:21

Also, for someone who'd never been overseas to pick one of the hardest countries to travel in. Yeah. Seeing as I didn't know any Japanese or anything. Yeah. So I booked a Intrepid Tour while I was in Japan. And on the Intrepid Tour, there was a lovely gentleman sitting opposite me, and I thought, oh, he's really cute. You know, like I was 26 at the time. Oh no, sorry, I was 24 at the time. I thought, oh, he's really cute. And then he started talking and he had this beautiful Scottish accent, and we just really hit it off. I think I knew straight away that he would be my husband one day, which sounds terrifying, creepy. But there was just something about that, that like, you know, crossing paths in Tokyo. He had just been living in Australia and won it was on his way back to Scotland. So I essentially, you know, I didn't have anything keeping me in Australia at that point. Like the role had finished, my contract role had finished, and I thought, oh, just moved to Scotland.

Emma 10:20

Like, you know, why just moved to Scotland? Yes, such a simple thing.

Briony 10:26

And I I do think that it generally I would say everyone was very supportive of my decision because they were like he must be special if she's gonna go over there with him. And I kind of felt like, well, if it doesn't work out romantically, like we would be good friends and things like that. But I just knew like I just had to follow my heart, and I think while this this conversation is about career and all the other episodes that I've listened to as well, it's not just career that shapes your life, you know. No, you've got to follow those those things that happen.

Emma 11:00

So absolutely, yeah. Um and and it's great that you mention it because I actually think it's one of the the main reasons that I wanted to have this conversation, exactly as you said. You know, I talk about career and it's all very kind of focused on on the work side of things, but career is just one part of your life, and the thing that ultimately is gonna have the greatest impact on your life as a whole and how happy you are in your life is who your partner is, you know. I know. So actually making a a move for love or what was probably potential love at that stage, because you didn't know hadn't known him very long, yeah, is you know, actually, isn't that what life is all about? I know.

Briony 11:44

I it felt like now that I look back on it, it really felt like that crossroads decision. I either was gonna go to Scotland and be with him and explore that part, or I would have stayed in Melbourne and continued being a lawyer. Um but I just felt like like that was a very um unfulfilling choice, I suppose, of like, oh, I'm just gonna keep focusing on my career. Whereas, you know, growing up I loved Brit Pop, I love everything to do with the UK. The idea of going to live there, like that seemed so exciting to me. And I think I was really ready to take like that big brave step of going, do you know what? I'm gonna leave my comfort zone, I'm gonna go to the other side of the world and have that real, like, European experience, but also like just knowing that I was going to be with the the man that was gonna become my husband, there was a lot of like comfort and reassurance in that. Yeah, so it was scary to move to Scotland, partly because Scotland actually has a different legal system to Australia, so my law degree essentially counted for nothing over there. So I have been doing my law degree and working for six years, yeah, and then got to Scotland and it was like, cool, well, you can start from scratch, you need to do a degree. You need to do a traineeship, and it was it was like, oh wow, this is this is hard. So I kind of had to pivot, you know, as you do when you kind of come up against these roadblocks. So I started volunteering at a community law centre, and that was something that I had done in Australia of just, you know, helping people who they couldn't afford legal advice, but they were coming in with housing issues and and debt issues. Um, and through that I became connected to the university that was based next door. And I remember there was a time, so my parents came over for our wedding, and my dad was actually talking to someone from we've skipped forward something. Sorry, sorry, we got to so inning, we got to so winning.

Emma 13:53

Key point! Yeah, key point. We got married.

Briony 13:58

The relationship was going amazingly, and that's a like I always say like he's the only person I ever even thought about marrying. I just could see it, I could just see, oh, we'll get married.

Emma 14:09

Um I just love that you knew, like it's just so cool. Like, I I just and and as you tell the story, you knew like pretty quickly, like you met him, you have that thought in your head. Yeah, it's so cool. I love stuff like that.

Briony 14:25

Yeah. Um, there was like a very kind of deep down intuition, and I and I think there was things that made me like really like trust myself.

Emma 14:38

Yeah.

Briony 14:38

So a big thing for me was like, is he really, is he really as nice as he seems? And then I met his parents and his brother, and I was like, oh my gosh, he is actually really this lovely. Like, you know, you think he's just putting on this act. And then like everyone that I met in his life just really solidified just what what a perfect fit we were for each other. And so it just, you know, it's just one of those things of like there was never any, even though there were periods that I actually was back in Australia and he was in Scotland, there was never any communication issues, there was never any worries that he was off looking for someone else and things, and there was just so much, it was just so solid that it was just beautiful to be able to like really like embrace that like special relationship. So when my my parents were over for our wedding, which was very beautiful, my dad got to talk to someone who was at the the law center, and he was like, Oh, you know, Brianie's wasted her law degree, she spent all that time in Australia. Like, he had seen how hard I'd worked, and he's like, But it's all been for nothing. Whereas I see my career as cumulative, everything has built on everything. Like, while I did that law degree and now I don't use it, I learned so much, I got so many skills from it, I met so many people, I had so many experiences to shape the person that I am now, and I think that's something that I just wanted to like touch on to mention that other people will have their perspectives on your career, but you can you can like trust yourself, your intuition, and know that we're all growing, we're all evolving, and that's a really special and important thing to to for you to think about your career.

Emma 16:34

Yeah, I I totally agree, and I I think there's two two really key points in there, one being the opinions of other people and you know not being overly, overly swayed by them. Sure, you might you know take advice or listen to opinion, but your life, your career, and as you said, your your intuition about what you know is right for you. And the other one is is the point about accumulative skills and and transferable skills. And I think particularly when someone goes and ends up going in quite a different direction, I think it's very easy for people to say things like, Oh, you wasted that time, or you know, you don't use those skills anymore. But of course you do, like you you use them, I'm sure, all the time. Just because they're not labelled law or conveyancing or whatever, doesn't mean that you're not using, I don't know, critical thinking or you know, questioning or communication skills, or like all of the things that you would have learned during that that time. It's not forgotten, they're exactly building blocks, aren't they, to to take you in in perhaps another direction. But I think you still you still use those things.

Briony 17:47

Yeah, definitely. And I think that's like now almost I know some people do talk about law almost as though it's more of a generalist degree because you can actually learn so many skills from doing the degree, whether or not you want to practice as a lawyer. It really teaches you a lot about like critical thinking. And probably one of the things that I really enjoyed when I was doing working as a property lawyer was taking something which was complicated, like a piece of legislation or a decision, and making it simple for a client, like translating that complexity. Um, and then that really then started to shape what my career has been. Then, after I was volunteering at the law center, we had this connection with the university that was next door. And through that relationship, I developed a module for students which was teaching them practical legal skills, but also I was a lecturer, so I started teaching, you know, intro to Scots law, law of the European Union, and again, the whole work of a lecturer is taking a complicated topic and translating it into simplicity for a student. So I really enjoyed that period of my life. I wouldn't say it really suited me though, more from like a physical aspect. So something else that has really shaped my career is my chronic illness. I have Crohn's disease, and definitely there's periods of my life that I'm well, and there's periods of my life that I'm not so well, and being a lecturer and having to stand and teach from 9 a.m. in the morning and through till 1 pm, my my teaching block was, and that was incredibly hard on my health. Um and so And you've got to put energy into it.

Emma 19:38

You can't no yeah, you've you've got to give so much of yourself through through doing that.

Briony 19:43

Yeah, there was so much about that that was so draining to me. Yeah, and even though it was amazing getting to shape and influence students and teach them and see them transform over a 12-week period, the effect it was having on my health was really, really detrimental. But actually, again, kind of by you know, the the outside factors that influence things, the university themselves decided to stop offering that as a course. So again, I was kind of like, okay, well, what's my next career step from here? I did consider really, you know, like should I complete my qualification in lecturing? There is something that I love around public speaking and being on stage, but also adjacent to that, I had been writing a food blog. So when I moved to Glasgow, it's got a very bad reputation for food. People have a very outfit, deep-fried mask of what Scottish people eat, exactly. And people would say to me, like, oh my gosh, how is it living in Glasgow? Like, they mustn't have any nice restaurants. And I was like, Have you ever been to Glasgow? Like, they actually do have nice restaurants.

Emma 20:55

Yeah, yeah. So I started it was the city of culture, wasn't it? Do you remember what year it was in the I know that had a really big impact on the 80s more broadly? I can't remember. Or more recently.

Briony 21:07

They did have the Commonwealth Games more recently.

Emma 21:09

Yeah. I I remember because my dad is Scottish, my dad's actually from Glasgow, and it was a I remember him thinking it was this huge deal that they, you know, became the city of culture.

Briony 21:20

So it's a very misunderstood city, and it's probably one of the most welcoming places I've ever been in my life. And there is so much art and culture and so many amazing things happening, but if it's not a city that people have been to, they definitely like go, oh, scary. Yeah.

Emma 21:37

And you're like, it's really cool. And I think because Edinburgh has the you know has the castle and has the architect, it has the hill, and uh I think more sort of classically beautiful, I guess. Yeah, it's a bit like the Melbourne Sydney thing, isn't it? Like Sydney has the Yes.

Briony 21:55

Yeah. But which one would you want to live in? Like you would want to live in, you don't Want to live in the touristy showboatie one, in my opinion. You want to live in the one that's like real and full of full of people. So again, that was, you know, that's part of the reason that I really loved Glasgow. So I've been writing this food blog called the Glasgow Food Blog. And this was at a time that, you know, my readership consisted of my mum. But other people started finding it through this magical thing called Google. And that really blew my mind because I wasn't really very good at promoting it. I didn't know much about marketing. Um, and so I saw this job opening for San Francisco tech company called Yelp. So they're a bit similar to TripAdvisor, like a local reviews app. And they were looking for a community manager in Glasgow. So that role was essentially a lot of it was online, writing reviews. There was also organizing events for in-person, working with small businesses to help them get visibility. And I was like, wow, that job sounds so cool. Like essentially, you just like work on your laptop in a cafe and be like out and about and and meeting people and and all of this. And I thought, oh, that sounds so great. And sometimes I thought they made it sound like that too. It sounds so amazing. And to be honest, it was actually a really great job, but the downside being is it was your life. You yeah, you didn't really work nine to five. Yeah, you didn't even really work Monday to Friday. You worked every minute of every day for the business. So, really, now looking back on that four-year period, I was doing that role, that took up a hundred percent of my time, my energy, my headspace. There were aspects that worked well for having a chronic illness, but also it was just so full on. I would be hosting like three or four events a week. There was so much, yeah, so much about you know, talking to people in in real life, in online, nurturing relationships, trying to build this community. A lot of that role was also working with small businesses. So I got to know the businesses of Glasgow so well, and I would go in and I would say, like, what do you need? Like, how do you need to get more customers? And I really quickly started to realize that Yelp was just one channel, they needed a lot more than just this one app. You know, we when we think about how we find places, we don't just go to one website or one listing. So I think it was in 2016 that Yelp as an organization decided to only focus on America. So they made all of the staff outside of the US redundant. And actually, for me, that was the best thing that could have happened because I was really burnt out from the role. Um, I really felt like I had hit the the kind of limit of how that role could help me grow, and like I was just seeing all these opportunities that didn't fit with what Yelp wanted me to do. So it was the perfect, like you know, like stepboard, springboard. That's the word. It was the perfect springboard to being a freelance marketing consultant. I really just wanted to take that knowledge that I had gained of how people were searching and finding businesses and help small businesses with that. And it was really the perfect way because I already had a network. I already had all these businesses that I could say, hey, I'm available for freelance marketing consultancy. How can we work together?

Emma 25:54

And and the what I'm sure at the time it was happening you didn't realize it, but the years of research that you'd actually been doing through your conversations with this business, you had a wealth of knowledge of everything they've been telling you over the years and you know what's worked for them, what's not worked for them. You've you've got a huge database of of information there ready to go.

Briony 26:15

Yeah, and and even the digital marketing landscape was so different in 2016 and 17. Like businesses were made on Instagram, all you needed was like a couple of posts to do really well, and that would be your business kind of made. And so I was just so interested in this idea of like all the marketing channels, how they would all work together. My first offering to small businesses when I kind of went freelance was social media management and also hosting events, but it was like I picked the two things that I found the most draining, and it was just like within six months, I was like, Oh, I've created a monster. This is this isn't what I want to do. But the best thing about freelancing and the best thing about being your own boss is you choose, like you get to set those parameters and you decide what you offer, and that's when I started learning about SEO. So, over the years that I'd been doing the food blog, that I'd been doing Yelp, there was a lot that I had been trying to work on to understand how does Google search work? How do businesses get visibility? And then when I started actually applying those those learnings as well to my food blog and to clients' websites, it was like a light bulb going off for me of like, I love how this works, I love that I can invest my time and energy in something that brings longevity and traffic rather than I've created an Instagram post that's only going to be visible for 24 hours and then no one will ever see it ever again. And it was something to do with that, like noticing what really suited my brain, like my love of spreadsheets, my love of organization, my love of just again taking something complicated like SEO, that a lot of people are terrified of, and and you know, just even go, oh god, please don't talk to me about that. I can get anyone excited about SEO after 15, 20 minutes.

Emma 28:32

That is a bold claim.

Briony 28:33

Oh, I can I can change people's opinions from being like, I'm scared of it, I don't understand it, it's terrifying, it's pointless, I can change people's opinion about it. And then there'll be like a real enthusiast of like, yes, this is why SEO is so important and so valuable. And I think that then was really like the moment that I was like, great, this is what my business is, this is what I love doing, and this is what people are happy to pay me for. Like, and you know, that that pie chart or that that graph that's like the overlap. Yeah, the Venn diagram, that's the word I was looking for. The Venn diagram of like what do you need in life? You need to do something that you love that people will pay you for, that brings you happiness. Like, and I was just like, Yes, this is this is for me.

Emma 29:22

Yeah, and I think as well, you touched on it before that you've also got control of your time. So when there's days that you feel better than others, and days perhaps when you don't feel as well, like you're able to manage that. You're you're able to manage your own, I guess, energy in that sense to you know what you've got to deliver, you know what your customers need, and and you can kind of flex your hours and your input as as you need.

Briony 29:49

Yeah, that's and that's a huge factor for me of like scheduling my time, scheduling my calendar, scheduling what is happening this week, if things aren't going well, you know, being able to like flex and move. But I think for me it's a big there's a big element of like I don't have to ask a manager, I don't have to ask for a sick day. And there's something around I think just like the experience of being an employee with a chronic illness. There's something about not having to ask permission that is the thing that allows me to rest, um, of being able to like listen to what I need, what my body needs. Um, but at the end of the day, like I can also feel really fulfilled and happy that I'm doing really great work because I'm listening to myself and resting when I need, as opposed to like burning out, making things worse, being more exhausted. So yeah, it's been a really great chapter of my life.

Emma 30:55

And I think ultimately it's it's just more empowering, isn't it? Like you're you're you're getting back an element of of control to to say, well, I may not be able to control the the overriding health issue, but what I can control is is the parameters around that and how I do my best work and when I do my best work, and uh I can totally see that yeah, it would make such a such a huge difference, that that sense of empowerment.

Briony 31:22

Yeah. There was actually a conversation that I had with my gastroenterologist around it because this period of time, in the last, say in the last year in particular, I've been on a particular kind of medication that is government subsidised. And you know, it's expensive and it requires approval. But he was saying, isn't that amazing that the government can provide you with a medication that means that you're able to work and provide and be a part of the economy, as opposed to if you weren't on this medication, you might not be able to work. And it's just a really positive way of like looking at these things that you know, the the government's perspective of like, you know, we're all we're all dollar signs, you know. I don't have to feel like my net contribution is like a drain. I can feel like you know, I've got a very successful business, I'm very autonomous, and and I can do all these things and achieve all of these things because I'm able to be on a really great medication that works for me.

Emma 32:26

Yeah, yeah, no, that's fun, that's fantastic. And you mentioned it there that you're I think you said it there, that you're you're now back in Australia. So somewhere, somewhere along the line you you you made the move back from from from Scotland to to Melbourne.

Briony 32:44

Yeah, so we I suppose when when I made that move to Scotland, I was like, oh, I could live here for like three years, like and so you know, we kind of had that conversation of like how long would it be? Like three to five years, but as you settle into life and you settle into your routines and you get a dog, you you kind of forget, you know, and I think that time goes quick, it time it really does, and so yeah, it got to about the 10-year mark, and I think that was when we really kind of thought, okay, well, we're going to have to move back to Australia. A big draw card for me was I have nieces and nephews in Australia, and I didn't want to just be the auntie on the FaceTime, like I wanted to be present in their lives and nearby, and so we started all the logistics for the move, and it was very exciting. I remember saying to my mum when I saw her at the airport in 2019, we'll be moving next year, mum, it's gonna be so good, you know. And mum was like, my mum was like, there's something that makes me feel like we won't be moving next year, and I was like, So weird, why would you say that? But she was right. Then she moved.

Emma 34:00

She's right, a small small thing happens, yeah.

Briony 34:03

So COVID was definitely a big issue for us, partly because it was very hard to get into Australia.

Emma 34:10

Yeah.

Briony 34:10

So we eventually made the move in 2021, which was still during COVID, there were still lockdowns. Um, our dog made the move. So he came over and went into dog quarantine for 10 days. My husband and I came over and we went into hotel quarantine for 14 days, which meant that Joffrey got freedom before we did.

Emma 34:34

I'm just not even gonna make a comment on that because that's a whole can of worms. I'm just gonna gloss over that one.

Briony 34:41

Yeah. It was so surreal, such a strange, such a strange time. And so I had a lot, you know, my whole client base at that time, I think let's say 90%, was businesses in Scotland, in the UK. And I thought with the move that some of them might say, Oh, we we want to work with someone who's closer, because I actually had a client who I would go and work with them in their office once a week in Glasgow. So I made the move and kind of you know started up the business and and everything here. And my UK clients actually said that they preferred that I was in Australia. And it actually comes down to the time difference of a lot of my clients like it, that if they've sent me things, I can deal with it while they're sleeping. Yeah, they wake up at 9 a.m. they get the answer, it's it's done and dusted.

Emma 35:33

So it makes sense, yeah.

Briony 35:35

Yes, I tried not to take that personally, that they said that they preferred. But I was in Australia, and so it's been a really practicality. It's been a really interesting thing to kind of go through having a business that was very successful in the UK and almost kind of having to start again in Australia, but I'd kind of done that in the UK by moving to the UK, I'd felt like I'd started again. And so I don't see it as intimidating now because you know I've got all these years of experience and I've got that kind of like rely, you know, trust in myself that that will I'll make it work, like whatever whatever happens. So I've now got some clients that I work with in Australia. Predominantly I'm working with like bigger organizations rather than the small business focus that I had in Glasgow because that's where I feel like I can make the most impact of taking complexity, whether that's you know, their marketing channels, their analytics, their organic search performance, and translating it into something simple as well as like training staff members, you know, if they've got like a team member that they want to upskill in SEO or analytics, um, that's something that I do as well. So again, that's kind of like touching back on like when I was a lecturer, you know, I was doing teaching.

Emma 36:55

So yeah, it's it goes back to that point of no skill is no skill is wasted, you know, that there's always some other incarnation of a way that you can use that. Yeah, yeah.

Briony 37:06

But I think probably one of the things is a lot like that I again I've only learned this maybe in the last year, is that self-reflection of like checking in with myself and saying, what am I doing? Am I enjoying it? Is this really lighting me up? Am I getting the best out of each of these client projects? Um, as well as like having the ability to kind of look at where things are going, because I think I get very down in like the weeds of like the day-to-day and forget to like have that bigger perspective. Um, and I think that's where having someone that you can talk to that's a coach or an outside consultant to kind of help you look at those things, I think is so so useful. And again, only something that I've learned in like the last year of my life of like, hang on, let's look at where we're going. Like, yeah.

Emma 38:02

Yeah, it's so easy to do, isn't it? Like you say, you're not even in the weeds, you're you're just the day today, you're busy, stuff's going on. It's that I always use the it's very easy to, you know, you can't see the you can't see the wood for the trees. There's you you don't have sometimes that perspective because you're so close to it. Yeah, um and something that might actually be blindingly obvious to to an outside perspective can be staring you in the face and and you just you don't see it because it's just kind of as you say, part of that that day-to-day. And I think as you touched on there, like the importance of reflection. I I think it's one of those things that's quite easy to kind of kind of poo-poo and like, oh, you know, particularly around New Year, because it feels like every oh, let's do a review, let's do this, let's do that, and you know, it all gets a bit out of can get a bit out of hand, but it is so important, just that kind of self-check-in of okay, am I still on the path that I think I'm on? Because sometimes you might have actually something's changed and you've not even registered it, you've perhaps moved slightly further away from what you ideally wanted to do, or you know, whatever the the specifics might be, but just actually having that yeah, step back and and just that time. And I think actually that's where the the Christmas and New Year break is particularly good because it does just give you that time, you know. Most people, certainly in the sort of you know, broader professional services space, aren't working at that time, so you don't need to be worrying about checking email and being across things, you know, you get that funny period between Christmas and New Year when no one knows what day it is. And I think just that kind of subconscious thinking that goes on in the background when you're not actively thinking about something is really important, and I think that is one of the best times of years for that kind of thinking. Yeah, and then you know, suddenly one day you wake up with this great idea and it's just been percolating away in the background without you even realizing.

Briony 40:07

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I've done over the years, I've done like a few mentoring relationships where I've been the mentor and I've worked with someone who's maybe more like an early stage marketer, and the thing that I've always suggested to them, and you know, it's even a reflection to do on a day-to-day basis if you are that way inclined, but to start to really take the time, like maybe in your commute on the way home at the end of the day, and really think back to the things that happened that day and try to find whatever it was, however much of the day it was, that was the thing that really lit you up, that really like energized you and got you excited. Was it being a leader? Was it teaching someone something? Was it identifying something in Google Analytics, like something in your day, and it might not be every day, it might be you know one moment a week, but if you can start to notice what that is, and then you know, really think about what that is and how that could shape your career and your career decisions, could be something really useful, and you might find, hey, there is absolutely zero in lighting me up, and maybe that's yeah, that's that's actually something as well.

Emma 41:22

Maybe that's something you should think about. Yeah, it's it's a really interesting and a great piece of advice. I um similarly say that to people, and I I sort of use the term of energy, like what do you find gives you energy and and what do you find draining? It's the same point, different different words, but I think it is a really good way to think of it because again, when you're just kind of doing the do, and you know, you're kind of on the hamster wheel, and you don't necessarily think of things in those terms, you're just like, Well, these are the things I need to get done, I'll do them. And just actually thinking about, well, actually, you know, I I did do that thing, I still delivered it, but my god, like I felt exhausted afterwards, and I felt like I'd dragged myself over hot coals to get it finished versus you know, that thing that actually took way longer or was way more complex, but wow, I loved it, and I felt super energized by it. It's a really good, it's a really useful framing.

Briony 42:22

Yeah, it's so positive as well. It's a it's a great way to think of you know, you shouldn't be in a role or you shouldn't be in a career where everything is draining. That's not that's not a good experience. And I think people realising that that work shouldn't feel like that.

Emma 42:36

Yeah. I think the other thing that's really useful about thinking about it in those terms is I find so often when people are trying to answer those types of questions for themselves, or they're thinking about maybe what they want to do next, that they're trying to attach it to a job title or a career path, and it it's it's too much too soon. You you kind of have to break it down into the what activities, you know, do you enjoy? I don't know, being around lots of people, less people in an office online, you know, all of those kind of building blocks of a role before you then kind of add in the job title over the top. It it's far more far more helpful and gives you far more information to work with. And tying that into the earlier point actually about transferable skills as well, because if you're thinking about it purely from a skills and activities perspective, then you might be able to tie in something you know that you did 10 years ago that you've you've kind of moved away from and actually go, oh hang on, you know, when I was it when I was a lawyer, I I did all of this kind of stuff. I can completely use that again. I can use that critical thinking, I can use my communication skills to simplify that super complex thing and I can use it today. So yeah, I think it's a super super useful framing.

Briony 43:54

Yeah, I love that. That's amazing.

Emma 43:57

The the other thing I just wanted to ask you about, I was gonna Say briefly, and I appreciate it's it's not a brief topic, but was uh kind of how SEO has evolved because the the phrase that came into my mind when you were talking about SEO before was a bit like it's the dark arts, you know, because it's kind of like something that I think a lot of people don't understand, certainly non-marketers don't understand. I think even for for a lot of marketers, it again it's kind of the dark arts, it's the bit that they they don't dabble in. And I think search more broadly has changed so much, and you know, the advent of AI and all of that kind of things. Yeah. Um briefly, briefly, can you can you kind of summarize how you see what's changed and maybe what's kind of continuing to change in that space?

Briony 44:48

Yeah, yeah. It's I've I feel like this is one of the most intense periods of digital change that we have faced. Um, you know, whether you're talking about marketing or whether you're talking about human beings, yeah. Everything that's happening now is is it's like that, it's like the the tension between it's so exciting, it's so terrifying. And I think marketers are struggling with that kind of way of like, hey, we have to keep up, we have to be seen to be like ahead of the curve, but we also have to be seen to be using our best judgment and our ethics and critiquing things, but also we don't want to be selling snake oil, and you know, it's all of these things that are all working in conjunction, and it's something that I have personally really struggled with, and so my fundamental belief, or like my fundamental approach to marketing, has always been like the website for the business is the heart of like where we are sending traffic to, and so that's why I've really loved SEO because that's such a driver of that traffic, and now what we're seeing is maybe that search behavior that happens on Google search, maybe a user doesn't need to visit your website because they're getting the answer on the search result. Um, and I think there's a lot there that we can do and we can empower people to think about of making sure that that information is correct. So, say for example, I was doing a digital audit of a client and all of the information that was being mentioned in AI tools like ChatGPT and Gemini was being sourced from other websites, not the client's website, but other websites. There was actually a technical issue as to why AI tools couldn't access the website, so it was relying on third-party information. And even being aware of that issue, yeah, like is a huge advantage as opposed to what a lot of people do, or what you know some people do, is just by burying their head in the sand and being like, I'm not gonna address it, I'm not gonna confront it, it's hard, it's challenging. I think that's a huge thing of why people don't like SEO. Like, seems complicated. What am I meant to do? How am I meant to do it? Work with an SEO consultant who you can trust and you you can rely on, who's there to demystify things for you. And I think that's probably again like it's kind of almost like a branding piece. The SEO industry has made its own job harder by there being a portion of people who are like, hey, just buy some backlinks, do do SEO without us actually telling you anything about what that means. And I think that then can become like a really negative thing for the industry as a whole, yeah, as opposed to I want to work with a consultant who's gonna train and guide and be very transparent with me. They're very they're two completely different paths that you can go down, yeah. And so I think it is all about you know, either making sure that you as a marketer or as a business owner are doing something to learn about like AI visibility and how that's impacting search. But what has been said by representatives of Google is in tools like Gemini, what is is influencing what Gemini references is the fundamentals of good SEO. So good SEO is still the basis that then that is feeding into what gets cited in AI. Um but you know, we're in this super fast changing landscape that ChatGPT has just announced it's going to be introducing ads. A year ago they said they would never have ads. You know, we're just trying to keep up with these tools that are out there and measure the impact on businesses. Um I do a little bit wonder. My my theory is when ChatGPT gave me its report of my 2025 in review, it said that I was in like the top 1% of users, and I don't actually use it that much. So my thinking is that maybe everyone thinking that they're trying to rush to keep up and adapt to this new changing landscape. Is it really happening as much as we all think it's happening? And then, like, yes, I know that the Google landscape is slightly different because that is actually pushing us to see the AI information. But is that what users want, or do they want the experience of they still want to do the searching and the research and verifying for themselves? Like, I would not want an AI tool to go and purchase a whiteboard for my office, which is what I purchased yesterday. I want to make the end decision about which one I need. I think sometimes people forget that human beings actually enjoy. I enjoy researching a holiday, I enjoy planning where I'm going. Yeah, there's a little bit of this, like, you know, we can disrupt everything and and give everyone this perfect answer that they need immediately. But then where's the where's the joy?

Emma 50:29

Yeah, there's a yeah, there's a time and a place, and I think some things super well suited for, other things not. And if we're just trying to force fit it into everything, then I think that's when you you see some kind of super clunky results, shall we? Shall we say, if we can even call them results, but final question, Brianny, and it's always the final question, and that is what do you know now that you wish you knew then?

Briony 50:57

Probably the element that has flowed through everything that I've talked about is just to trust yourself. Um, I think I've been really strongly guided by my own intuition, and where I have not listened to my intuition is where I've made a mistake, but where I have trusted my intuition has been where I've taken what what I think has been the right path. Like taking that decision to go to Glasgow to be with my husband, like I now feel like I'm living my perfect, happy life. Like, this is exactly what I actually don't even think I could have ever thought that this would be my life. Like, I'm so happy and everything has worked out so well. Um, you know, whereas to me that other path would have been the path of like misery and sadness and being a lawyer but having absolutely nothing else going on in her life. Um and so I think it had that has come from just trusting myself and believing in myself, and you know, it's one of those pieces that you you know when you talk to someone else who's you know, maybe at any stage of their career, but you wish that they could feel that themselves too, as well. Of like, if if you could trust yourself, like so it's like a habit to practice, yeah.

Emma 52:16

Just trusting yourself, yeah, and and it compounds, doesn't it? Because once you start to do it and and then once you start to trust that feeling more, then you're more likely to trust it the next time and the next time and and the next time, but you've kind of got to start somewhere, like there's that first time where you just have to kind of jump off the cliff and go, Well, you know, I don't really understand this, but it kind of feels like the right thing to do, so I'm gonna do it. And then when it works out, and you know, so it kind of compounds over time. But it's interesting that a version of that answer is is one that comes up quite a lot. People word it very differently. Sometimes it's I wish I had more confidence in myself, I wish I trust myself sooner, but it's all sort of variations of a very similar, a very similar theme. And I do wonder if it's almost something that you do need a bit of time to get to because you need that evidence or or you need that that or more of a feeling of certainty. I I don't know, but yeah, I think it is one of those things if we could all just flash back and 20-year-old or whatever, 20-year-old me and go, trust yourself, like trust your intuition.

Briony 53:30

Yeah, it's a bit I would trust the 20 year old 20-year-old version of myself. She was a bit of an idiot. But I do like I do actually the word, the word, the bit that you said there that like resonated so much with me, and I watched it right before I moved to Scotland was like the Indiana Jones movie, you know, where he's about to step off and he has to take like the leap of faith, like yeah, and that to me was like me stepping and going, Well, I'm going to Scotland. Um, but I also was able to rationalise it of like, what's the worst that's gonna happen? The worst that would have happened is I would have gone to Scotland, the relationship didn't work out, I moved back to Australia and lived with my parents, and I would have then you know taken a different path. So I think I've always been able to do that kind of like ability of like, well, if this, if I do this, then what if it doesn't work out?

Emma 54:20

And so I think it's super helpful and and kind of a bit counterintuitive because you think, well, what's the worst that can happen? Like, why is that a helpful thing? But what you realise is that once you start to ask those questions and and kind of I was often talk about kind of bringing that thing into the light, once you bring it into the light, you realize it's not that bad. And you're like, well, if that thing did happen, then I would do X, Y, and Z and I'd be fine. So that thing that actually seems super scary from the outside, if you break it down, it actually isn't that it isn't that huge thing. I think it's a really, really useful thing to be able to do and kind of have it to get into. Yeah. Thank you so much, uh Brian. As I said kind of halfway uh or early on in the conversation, you know, we talk a lot about work and careers, and you know, obviously those things are an important part of life, but there's so many other more important parts of life, and certainly, you know, your overall health probably number one on the list, or very, very closely tied with you know love and and the person that you want to spend your your life with. And it's just been really lovely to have a conversation that's that's touched on those things and and yeah, to hear you kind of talk so openly about it, and it's really lovely. And it's also really lovely to hear you kind of get to the end of the conversation and say, and I'm really happy, and you know, I've managed to build a life for myself that maybe I couldn't even have pictured. So it's awesome to hear that. So thank you very much for sharing. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so delightful. Before you go, I've got a quick favour to ask. If you enjoyed this episode or something in it resonated with you, I'd love it if you could leave a quick review or rating on Apple Podcasts. It's one of the best ways to help more people find the show, and I love to hear what's landing with you. Just scroll down in the app, tap a star rating, and if you've got 30 seconds, leave a few words too. Thanks again for listening. I really appreciate it.