How to Become a Fractional CMO (Career Path, Skills & Lessons) with Laura Zahariou

What does it really take to grow from a solo marketer into a strategic leader and eventually step out on your own?

In this episode, Laura Zahariou shares her career journey from being the only marketer in mid-sized businesses to building a career as a fractional marketing leader.

Early in her career, Laura found herself as a solo marketer reporting directly to CEOs and founders, sitting in conversations about revenue, cash flow, margins, and operations. It gave her strong commercial awareness but also required her to be proactive in developing her marketing skills outside her role.

We discuss how mentoring and executive coaching played a huge role in her continued professional development, and the advice she would give others in the same situation.

We also talk about what prompted her to leave her corporate career and start her own business. Laura talks us through her thought process and what she's learnt that has surprised her.

We explore:
• The transition from solo marketer to strategic leader
• What a Fractional CMO actually does
• The importance of proactive learning and development
• Why marketers need to treat networking as a priority (and even set KPIs around it)
• The impact of remote work on learning, confidence, and soft skill development
• Why in-person connection still matters
• Learning to “panic slowly”

This episode is full of practical insight for marketers looking to grow, step into leadership, or explore more flexible career paths.

To connect with Laura:

Website: https://www.growthlanemarketing.com.au/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-zahariou-2680696b/

Can you also find episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EmmaGrahamCareerCoach/videos

Your host, Emma Graham, Career Coach and ex-recruiter, is here to help you with:

 💡 Gain clarity on what’s important to you
 💡 Confidently communicate your value
 💡 Build a personal brand and a strong network
 💡 Take a strategic approach to your next move
 💡 Navigate the job market effectively
 💡 Build career confidence with a repeatable success blueprint

🌐 Explore my coaching programs and free resources:
 Website: https://www.egconsulting.au/
 LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/emmajgraham
 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmagrahamcareercoach/

🎁 Free Resources:
 📄 CV Development Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/cv-advice
 📄 LinkedIn Profile Optimisation Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/linkedin-profile-guide

📅 Book Your FREE Career Strategy Discovery Call:
 https://calendly.com/emmagrahamconsulting/discovery-call

Transcript

Emma: So I am joined today by Laura Welcome

Laura: Thank you. Thank you.

Emma: Very good to be here with you we get into some of our broader topics be great to understand Laura a bit about your career journey and how you came to be where you are today So kind of take me back talk me through it

Laura: Sure, absolutely. I started my career in marketing and comms in medium sized businesses and quite early on I was reporting [00:01:00] to, directly to managing directors, CEOs, founders. And I actually didn't realize at the time how formative that would be.

Laura: I guess because I wasn't in large mar marketing departments, I was mainly on my own, so I didn't have layers of senior marketers above me.

So instead, I was sitting at that leadership table, hearing commercial conversations about revenue pressures, cash flows, margins, operational challenges. So you can imagine you. Being a great out of uni, that was like way over my head. but I didn't know at the time that that exposure gave me that strong commercial acumen today and probably earlier in the career as well.

so I guess the upside was that I learned how business actually makes money, right? And ultimately, even if you're part of the marketing department of HR or wherever you may be, the business obviously has one aims to make money.

Emma: Yeah

Laura: The downside to that, I guess, was that I had to proactively seek out. [00:02:00] My marketing development because I, I'd had it from a management director as commercially valued, but not so much, you know, in marketing skillset or technically marketing.

so I didn't have always have those senior marketing mentors internally. So that probably was that little downside. and I guess to teach me that strategic thinking or the brand capability. So I had to really look elsewhere. I had to look outside of this box, so out. Externally courses, professional associations, and then eventually layering my career executive coaching.

over time I moved more into senior roles, obviously, and. Especially more recently before I started my own business and there, you know, in those senior roles, I wasn't executing campaigns anymore. I was actually shaping the strategy. I was aligning marketing with business calls. I was influencing at executive level and I guess that earlier career of being sitting on that executive table, but probably did [00:03:00] help me.

Later on. And I guess, you know, sometimes early on in, in the career, you, you look at some CEOs and managing directors, you think, oh wow. You know, but they're all humans. At the end of the day, we are all human. And if you have that relationship for that human level, I think it just works out. And I think that's where helped me later on.

I guess it came a point in, in time where in my last corporate role, where I realized I wanted more. So I wanted more of a broader impact. I wanted different things. I wanted to shape commercial strategy. I didn't wanna just operate with an existing structure. And I, I could see that this particular role, my last role didn't go where I wanted to go.

So, I needed to find something else. And, I guess I always had this quiet, quiet ambition that I wanted to have my own business. So, a and funny that, funny enough, when I was [00:04:00] working with my executive coach right at the start, I wanted, I. my first thing was I wanted to have my own business. My first thing that I said to her, and I had forgotten that over time, that I worked with her over two or three years.

And so when I did open my own business, she said, well, do you remember what you said to me?

Emma: That's

Laura: I was like, yes, I did. And then I found it. growth late marketing. I didn't wanna wonder what if. So that's where I started my journey in this, in this business. And, Yeah. And today I provide obviously fractional marketing leadership to businesses that need more senior strategic capability, but don't necessarily, or can't necessarily justify the cost of a full-time, senior marketing leader.

Emma: I think it's so interesting in hindsight and it it's the reason why I start with that question because it's so interesting how often in hindsight the things that make sense that you weren't always super aware of at the time as you said you know when particularly when it's your first role or your first couple of [00:05:00] roles you don't actually know that that's unusual that you are sat there you know in at the at the leadership table with the CEO hearing these decisions hearing these conversations And actually it's only in hindsight that you can kind of look back and go oh wow like that was really formative Like that actually really

Laura: Yes.

Emma: how I approached my work as a marketer how I you know think about things and Yeah I I find that so interesting what those yeah What those moments are that often only become become clear in in hindsight

Laura: Yes. And I guess also, I mean, you'll probably remember all, same thing as me, but back in those days it was a lot more formal, you know. Meetings were formal.

Emma: Yeah

Laura: The leadership was very different. it looked very different and your expectations were different of you. So I think yes, you know, looking back now, you go, oh wow, that was, that was a great experience.

And I wish I had taken myself in that moment a little bit more seriously and said, oh, you know, embrace [00:06:00] this. You know, you, you should feel privileged to Laura that you sat at that table. So,

Emma: Yeah it's it's the classic isn't it of we don't know what we don't know

Laura: I dunno.

Emma: that that stage As you say you you

Laura: Correct.

Emma: know any any different You you used a a phrase actually it was only two words but I loved it a quiet ambition three words Such a such a lovely way to to phrase that Do you kind of think of that as I dunno that that little voice at the back of your head that kind of said one day you are you're going to do this is is that how it how it kind of sounded to you

Laura: I think so. I mean, I've always been an ambitious person generally, and I, I, you know, probably not so quiet about my ambitions generally, so I've always voiced my ambitions to businesses, to senior leaders, just so they're aware that I want more. But I guess that having my own business was probably more quieter.

If you wanna call it a quiet [00:07:00] ambition, only because it's something that's so scary and something that, you know, you take so much risk in, in doing that. And it, it really does. You know, and from I started my business last September to today, I've learned so much. And if I had known. All these things that I know now, probably we started it early only because I've, I've met so many wonderful people.

I've, you know, the learning curve, the, the ability to be across so many different sectors, different type of, industries and, and people in different jobs. It's just amazing. Honestly, it is amazing.

Emma: Tell me tell me about that that time when you are guess having that sort of realization that want more that that's what you want to do Isn't going to be possible within what was your current role And and maybe actually won't be possible within any organization It it it actually needs to be something that you you kind of need to to [00:08:00] step out on your own and and do And as you said like that's a did you use the word scary I can't remember That might be my word

Laura: Scary.

Emma: Don't want to put words in your mouth But that kind of feeling of like oh wow like I I think I'm going to do this Like talk me talk me through that What was what was going through your head and and what were you feeling as you were kind of going through that that process

Laura: Yeah. I guess I must say, I, I, I'll turn into a little bit of a sad story. So, at the time when I was deciding on that, a general manager that I worked with, he was such a lovely man. he fell ill. So, his words to me, were, enjoy life, Laura. And I guess that kind of pushed me even harder and, and that really, his legacy will probably live in with me for that reason that I, it just pushed me harder and faster to, to make this, dream reality.

Emma: Yeah

Laura: he only passed away early this year, but, I think. Just the fact that he said to me, [00:09:00] enjoy life. I think that's where I said to myself, well, I'm not going to waste my time and I'm going to take that risk and wherever it takes me. So

Emma: Yeah

Laura: that was probably my biggest push, I must say. And, Yeah, and I guess I just knew, like you said, that there wasn't going to be another organization that may be able to satisfy what I want, and I've always loved creating marketing functions from scratch. I've always loved seeing a, a business, you know, being at a foundation level, marketing and getting to this other level and setting them up for success and seeing that growth.

I've always loved that and I thought to myself, if I go into another business. I can do that for next three years again, and then what's next? I've gotta leave that business to go to another business and so forth. So it's like a constant, you know, constant constantly me leaving businesses to be able to get what I want out of my career.

whereas if I had my own business, I could do that. I easily with clients, [00:10:00] so, and I don't have to leave businesses. So, yeah.

Emma: Yeah exactly Yeah And and I think to a to a certain extent it it just kind of makes sense at a at a certain kind of level of of seniority and and particularly you touched on the more strategic side of things that that building aspect you reach a point in your career where that's the kind of work that you want to do Don't necessarily day to day kind of want to be down in the weeds It is that more influential strategic direction growth you know revenue generation that that side of things And as she said it's it's hard to get that continuously in a business It's it is a cycle in a lot of a lot of instances And and from the business perspective as well I I think it's A very logical solution that you can have access to a level of expertise and a a level of knowledge and a a level of of strategic thinking that you perhaps can't afford in a full-time [00:11:00] ongoing person and and maybe don't need for the same reason that we said before You know you don't need that person for the next three years but they could have a huge impact on your business over a a a shorter a shorter period of time

Laura: Correct. Yeah. you know, a 12 month period could be fine and you set them up for growth and you potentially help them hire someone else, and then it could be on needs basis when they need it and, and if they need something else, if they acquire a new business. so yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Emma: What's what surprised you about it What's what's something that you've discovered since working for yourself that you perhaps weren't weren't expecting I'm sure there's more than one but maybe the one that

Laura: many things.

Emma: first

Laura: Oh, oh gosh. Okay. I think accounting that the whole, you know, business behind the scenes of having to understand your BAS and GSD and, you know, all the things, all the numbers, you know, in the, in the working for a business, you understand budgets and how they work and [00:12:00] profit revenue and all the rest.

But this is more, you know, small type size business that's different. The, what also surprised me is networking and how important that is. And I wish I had done that earlier in my career. I think anyone sitting, you know, in marketing positions right now, whether you're a junior marketing coordinator or marketing specialist, or even an early marketing manager, take time and set yourself KPIs and networking.

You know, say to yourself, this month I'm gonna meet two people. For coffee and someone that I haven't met before. I wish I had done that earlier. So I think that's another surprise. Mm.

Emma: A hundred percent It's such a it's such a massive thing and I think it's easy something I talk about almost constantly but I get that it's easy you know you're busy day to day you know it doesn't seem that important at at that specific moment in time And so it just kind of drops down the [00:13:00] priority list But I think one of the things that that proactively Building relationships with a a a wider group of of people does is that it gives you options you know regardless of of what the future holds and You know let's be honest there's a lot of uncertainty about it at the moment So it's absolutely one of the things that you can proactively do for yourself for your career to give yourself options whatever those options might be Whether it's you know wanting to find a new role new permanent role in an organization whether it's wanting to go out on your own and doing that upfront work and and the point that you made which again I Always suggest to people and it's such a good one is is to give yourself KPIs around it because if you don't it just won't happen Or you know block out whatever it is an hour a fortnight in your calendar and that is your time

Laura: Yep.

Emma: pick up the phone reach out to a colleague and she said [00:14:00] have a coffee Go to an event whatever it is and and kind of make that promise to yourself Because

Laura: Yep.

Emma: know if if that thing if that time in your calendar was a meeting with someone else if it was a meeting with your line manager say you wouldn't cancel it But it's something that you're doing for yourself for the benefit of your own career And too often we do cancel that meeting with ourselves We go oh I'm busy I you know I haven't got time for that now And and you know what happens It never reappears in

Laura: It never happens. Yes.

Emma: and then as you said six months 12 months three years five years later the the number of times have heard someone say exactly what you said there of I wish I had started doing this sooner it would have made such a such a difference to me she's one of the reasons that I bang on about it constantly

Laura: A hundred percent. Oh yeah. And also ask your current people that you know, you know, whether it's your line manager like you mentioned, or anyone [00:15:00] like that, make it. Known that you want to network? I don't think it's a bad thing,

Emma: not

Laura: know, and I seek introductions. Hey, do you have someone that I could, you, you could introduce me to?

Emma: yeah

Laura: It's just, yeah.

Emma: The other way I I think of it and I think sometimes people don't love the word cause it sounds maybe a little bit transaction transactional It's a little bit Americanized You know they picture themselves in a you're drinking warm wine in a room with a hundred strangers That's that's not necessarily what I'm talking about And unless that's the way that you enjoy meeting new

Laura: Yep.

Emma: It it's not for me So

Laura: No.

Emma: don't do it that way essentially you are you are building a community for yourself That that's how I think of it And and like any community to that point of transactional it's a two way street You are you are not out there just asking everyone to help you without offering anything

Laura: Yes.

Emma: it's a two-way street You know you can learn from them they can learn from you you can help them They can help you [00:16:00] Over a prolonged period of time And that's not just about opportunities that's about learning it's about insight it's about support and I just think you know that there's so many benefits outside of the the the obvious ones that Yeah I'm I'm pleased you raised that cause it's a I think it's a

Laura: Yeah,

Emma: point and

Laura: it is.

Emma: one that people say I don't think are proactive enough about

Laura: Yes, I agree.

Emma: And and good on you for doing this that you identified sounds like pretty early on when you were kind of a a solo marketer in those roles that you didn't necessarily have that mentor or you didn't have that senior marketer that you could you could learn from So you took it upon yourself to to practically go out there and and find find that learning Can you talk to me about that in a bit more detail and and kind of talk me talk me through what you did

Laura: [00:17:00] Sure. I think it's so important to, to continue your learning whilst you're at a role and especially when, and there is a lot of, still, there is a lot of those, those businesses, medium sized businesses, even small businesses that have sole marketer and, you know, it could be a marketing coordinator or senior marketing coordinator and expect you to do the strategy and expect you to do the, the execution and everything in, in, in one and maybe.

Or a phone call at reception and, and whatever else, or pack a, you know, some samples to a customer. And that's all great. But I think it's how do you then, well, firstly, set boundaries so you, you can explain to them why, you'd like to do this part of the role because this is where the business will benefit most out of, in terms of your skillset.

But then the second thing is, how do you then, and like myself in earlier in the career, how do you learn. You know, who teaches you about actual marketing technical skills you don't have? And you know, many times I sat on the table [00:18:00] with managing directors saying to me, oh, I don't have the marketing skills you do.

I know I do because I went to uni in early in my career. Uni gives you, you know, a totally different perspective to what a senior marketer would from years of experience. So I think understanding, finding mentors out there. So for me it was a start. Early in, in career I was doing some courses, so that kind of gave me a little bit of a, kind of a, an additional, Boost, then I did, and I still think that's still going on. the, mentor walks. So I used to do a lot of those mentor walks and I met some lovely people through that. I think seeking those kind of opportunities for yourself is so important because that learning curve will only help you later in life.

And then. Later on, obviously a little bit more down the track. In my exec senior leadership roles, I, I started executive coaching. So again, and that's where I sort of noticed the gap. I thought [00:19:00] it's great how there's executive coaches out there for the senior leadership. I think it's very necessary. It's, it's, it's changed me completely.

It's given me a different, outlook on, on leadership, very important. But then what happens to those junior marketers? Where do they go? How do they seek that, that mentorship, if they have, obviously if the, the leader from the leaders great. If they're working in a larger organization, but if they don't, where do they go?

So that probably was my. Is still to this day is a little bit more of a question

Emma: Yeah

Laura: unanswered question.

Emma: Yeah With that executive coaching is that something that you sought out for yourself or is that something that the business supported you on

Laura: No. So I, I did look that for myself. So I, started following Jack Phillips when my son was in grade one, so I remember that clearly. So that was 14 years ago, 15 years ago, actually, 15 years ago. and she [00:20:00] was at the time a CMO for Visa. She was in a corporate role and I don't know whether you remember, you know Jack Phillips, I think,

Emma: I

dunno, her person, well I've met her many years ago but yeah I I followed

Laura: yeah,

Emma: and actually I think I met her I was in recruitment at the time and I met her when she was in that that role at

Laura: in the role. Yeah. So I've followed her journey and always loved her posts. So she was very active in LinkedIn even back then. And so. a general manager who used to work with many years ago said to me he was doing some executive coaching, and he explained to me how it works and I said, oh, that's a really good idea.

And then not long after, it was just straight after COVID, Jack had posted that she's doing executive coaching, and I thought, what a great opportunity to have someone that has that marketing expertise and the skillset has. Done marketing before,

Emma: Yeah

Laura: also a leader and we connected straight away. When I started the journey with her, it was just similar personalities, similar outlook.

[00:21:00] and I, I, I love it ever since then, so I've still got a couple of sessions left with Jack. Yeah, I think it's that continuous learning is so important. and I think one of the main things that I took away from there is self-awareness and how important it is to have that self-awareness in leadership.

and Jack taught me that. I mean, the credit to her. So, yeah. Yeah, love the journey.

Emma: The thing I particularly and the reason I ask that question is that the thing I particularly love about that is that again you were proactive like you took it upon yourself to do that For yourself so often you know hear people say or you know see on LinkedIn oh you know my company won't invest in development There's no training for me And you know it's a little bit worries me and I get it You know of course it would be lovely if you are if you employer was was going to in invest in you like that would be great But if they're not like that's not the end of [00:22:00] the story and and to the similar point with with networking and being proactive like no one cares about your career as much as you do So you need to be the driving force You need to be captain of your own ship I'm driving your own bus as the other analogy I always use I don't know why it's become about bus drivers but anyway the onus is on you you know too Actually even in the scenario where the organization is funding that training and development for you the onus is still on you

Laura: Oh.

Emma: to be proactive in having that conversation and saying you know I've identified this area that I would like to develop in I think I could learn some more skills in this area You know is there budget I found this course Is there budget for me to go and do this And you know if there is awesome but I said if there's if there's not that's that's not the end of it and if you are in a position to to be able to to pay for your own executive coach as as you did [00:23:00] fantastic But even if you are not there are still so many things out there proactively that you can do for yourself that absolutely free You know it it doesn't have to just be I think often it's it's easy to kind of make an excuse in in that area So great to hear that you were proactive and you did that and that it has had such a a profound impact on you and it's something that's taken you over you know over a number of of years that you continue to to benefit from

Laura: And I guess I forgot to add, so to begin with, I did seek executive coaching and because I followed her, it, she just. Sort of made sense. but at the same time I did ask my company, so I did put a business case forward, for them to fund my first few sessions and I think it was first three months or six months or something along that line.

but you know, it wasn't just going to the CEO saying I want some executive coaching. It was about me putting together a business case and seeing what they're gonna get out of that. So I did put [00:24:00] together a thorough business case and it was approved and I must. Say a good story and a good outcome out of that.

I did get promoted within probably the next, I believe 12 months after doing executive coaching. So I think it did work out and with that promotion it came, a little bit of money. So, and then I could afford more coaching. So proof of concept. Yes. And you know, it's all about, and, and in business as well, you spend money to get money.

Right. And it's the same thing in this. So, yeah.

Emma: Yeah

Laura: it.

Emma: it's yeah it's an interesting disconnect and I realize it's slightly self-serving of me banging on about this but it's the last thing I'm gonna say about it It it's interesting that there's a slight disconnect I think sometimes between and and even from people that are really ambitious and you know they they work hard and and they want to excel in their careers There's sometimes that disconnect between well sometimes you have gotta invest in Yourself you

Laura: Yep.

Emma: in yourself in other areas but in that sort of development training coaching whatever words you [00:25:00] want to use yeah there there is sometimes that that disconnect between investing in it for yourself But I shall stop banging on about that now

Laura: I agree.

Emma: The other thing that you touched on Laura that I I wanted to come back to cause it is a a little bit of a a soapbox topic for me was for more junior marketers or or marketers that are earlier in their career If they are solo marketers in an organization and you know where is that kind of mentoring leadership coming from think the other side of of that conversation that I was interested to to get into cause it's something I don't necessarily see highlighted a lot is that that's also part of the the kind of working from home Broader conversation I'm gonna put a couple of caveats in here because it's a a topic that I feel quite passionate about So I'm gonna I'm gonna put a few caveats in before I before I dive in firstly of course [00:26:00] flexibility is important I'm not suggesting that flexibility isn't important I'm not suggesting that we should all be chained to our desks you know five days a week from from nine till five That's one caveat The other caveat is I you know it's perhaps could seem slightly hypocritical cause I work from home but I also work

Laura: Yes,

Emma: and it is just me So

Laura: yes.

Emma: I I kind of have the final say over that So having got my two caveats out of the way it does seem to me and obviously interested in in your take on this that the pendulum needed to swing in my opinion it has swung wildly too far Up the other way I think one of the impacts of that that I as I say I don't see necessarily getting a lot of airplay is the level of informal on the job coaching and learning that more junior team members get Without perhaps even realizing that it's happening [00:27:00] you know it's listening to a conversation It's it's observing a a meeting an interaction all of those things that you can't do remotely that you you don't see on teams And I reflect reflect back in my own career to to how much I learned from actually listening and watching other people and if I didn't have that And and had no other real avenue to to gain that I think there'd be a a real real hole in in my development More more broadly what's what's your take on that

Laura: Absolutely. I, I agree with you Emma. and I think you and I come from that, that era of full-time in the office, very rigid ways, disciplined, da da duh. And, so this change has brought the flexibility and flexibility can look different. You know, it's, it, you know, is it working from home? Is it working?

Cafes are working overseas. Is it working on a holiday? You know, flexibility can look very different. when, when we [00:28:00] talk about flexibility, so. Generally, I'm actually pretty supportive of flexibility. I think, you know, working from home, it's progressive. It enables balance, it reflects of how modern work has evolved and I think that shift will keep evolving to a degree.

But like everything in life, I think there needs to be some sort of balance. You know, we talk about balance, when we talk about diets, we talk about balance in any form of life. So I think work also needs a balance. I think early in my career, being present in the office, had a huge benefit for me personally.

I learned how to manage personalities.

Emma: Yeah

Laura: and I mean that's huge. There's so many people in the office. If you work for a large corporate, there's gonna be even more. So how do you learn, learn to manage good and bad personalities and you know, and whatever else in between. How do you read a room? I mean, here we are talking online, you know, I can read you, but there's no, There isn't that [00:29:00] personal body language that I can, I can read from, from the online meeting. How do you recover from a difficult pro presentation? You know, if you present online, it's totally different to how you present in, you know, in a room full of say, like I said, 10 executives. how do you build that influence informally as well, if you're always online.

and I think there's always, there's something powerful about that incidental learning as well. Something that. You're in the office and you hear overhear a strategic conversation or you are over as a marketer, you're overhear salespeople talking about the product and you go, oh, and it happened to me so many times.

Emma: Oh, I wanna put that in the brochure next time. being invited into those meetings that are maybe a slightly above your level gives you an opportunity. It gives you a. Yeah

Laura: open door, giving that kind of feedback immediately after a discussion, not dwelling on things, not thinking. It's just this lot of benefits.

I think, that, that [00:30:00] you can't replicate that remotely. And I don't think the answer's completely abandoning the flexibility because I'm all for it.

Emma: not at all

Laura: But it's, it's about being intentional and I think you've gotta. If your teams say, if your team is hybrid, great, 'cause you've got an office as a secondary source, but there is companies in today's world that are are remote.

Well then how do you intentionally create those spaces, you know, co-working spaces where you can meet up together, where you can, you know, a strategy ara, you know, when you put together a strategy in a room with a whiteboard and a team around you. Wow. So

Emma: different Yeah. 

Laura: to sitting in a room by yourself.

And I mean, I'm seeing that myself now. I'm sitting by myself creating a strategy with no one to tell me whether I'm doing a good job or not. So I think it's just, I think it's, there is a lot to say when it comes to office work and you know, even like, [00:31:00] I remember those drinks on Friday night.

Emma: Yeah yeah

Laura: How good was that?

You know, don't forget that, that after work socialization that I think, if you're not in the office, you don't get that and then you're meeting new people. it's just, yeah.

Emma: Yeah

Laura: So that's my opinion, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Emma: I said at the start I think it it was a it was a solution to a very specific problem And and to your point you know as I said flexibility is important I agree that that the pendulum needed to to swing I just think it's gone wildly too far the other way and I think we've lost sight of So you said there are a lot of the benefits of you know it's just become oh you know the time I spend on a commute or you know the the negative aspects Sure If you know Commuting's not particularly fun No one's suggesting it is there's also there's also lots of other there are benefits of actually being in the office And so you said even just the [00:32:00] the kind of the social side like how many of people's friendship groups have have come from work Like how many of your close friends are people that you met at

Laura: With,

Emma: how many relationships started because the people worked together Like it's you spend so much time there the social aspects I think is is huge And as I said the that sort of you called it incidental learning which I really liked I just think we haven't really got our heads around that yet And I have a concern that we're kind of gonna get five 10 years down the road and go oh wow okay We we didn't actually fully appreciate we've lost there And and to the earlier point about you were in some of your first roles and and you were at that leadership table and you didn't know that that was unusual because you don't know what you don't know And if you've never Had that it's not that you are perhaps going oh I'm missing out on all this really important [00:33:00] mentoring learning training because you don't know any different You you don't know you're missing out on it because you've never had it And to your other point about know, some of the I know we call them soft skills but it just seems like such a dismissive phrase

Laura: so important.

Emma: so important

Laura: Oh, yes.

Emma: with challenging personalities learning to work with people that you don't like or get on with you know learning to have difficult

Laura: Yeah.

Emma: You know all of these things are are really Hard and it it's a very small minority of people who are innately good at those things Like most of us have got

Laura: I agree.

Emma: things by learning observing practicing getting feedback you know blah blah blah and yeah it it does it does concern me that there's a there's a hole there that I don't think we've fully kind of appreciated what's

Laura: It does,

Emma: of that's gonna look [00:34:00] like Yeah

Laura: and I guess it's how, how does then, you know, a lot of businesses out there now are trying to get people back in the office, but how do you then encourage. Them to go back in the office, but offering and providing them benefits, and I'm not talking about, oh, gym membership and you know,

Emma: Yeah

Laura: and a lunch here and there, or a coffee.

It's, it's about providing 'em with the benefits that I just mentioned earlier, you know, that incidental learning, explaining to them what they're gonna get out of that. you know, maybe inviting them to that senior leadership meeting just to see how that works, you know? And so I think. It's rather than creating mandates because we've seen all how mandates don't work well during COVID.

Right. So it's rather, and I've never been the one you are gonna do this and, and I almost rebel against it when there's someone, someone tells me, you have to do this. I'm like, oh no I'm not. So it's like, how do we then create not a mandate, but rather create a benefit to these people [00:35:00] so that they do get back to, they can get them through the door.

Emma: Yeah

Laura: It's just how, reframe that.

Emma: Yeah exactly And it's you know it's it's not a it's not a sim simple thing It's it's a complex thing I don't think there

Laura: No.

Emma: easy solutions And and I think also it's it's nuanced so

Laura: Mm-hmm.

Emma: can't just be a a black and white thing There's gonna be exceptions you know there's there's so

Laura: Yep.

Emma: parts to it But the the thing that does make me Smile sometimes is you know the the people that are very firmly on the flexibility bandwagon they'll wave the flag of flexibility are often the most inflexible rigid people when it comes to how they're interpreter how they're interpreting Flexibility Flexibility actually doesn't mean flexibility It means I will never go into the office on a Monday or a Friday or whatever it would be

And that's 

Laura: Yeah. 

flexibility Yeah. Yeah.

Emma: as I say I think we've I think we've lost the plot slightly on on [00:36:00] kind of some of the framing how we're talking about it and and how we're Thinking about it and and actually thinking about the benefits not just the the fact that yeah you've gotta get to the office and and all of that kind of thing And then you know on your mandates point Again I think it's a it's a it's a complex conversation because I think what Can happen That is if there aren't some mandates in place or at least agreed days then I go into the office and no one else in the team is there So I'm there for team catch up

Laura: By myself. Yeah, I get that

Emma: I'm sat on a Zoom with people at home and then I think well what's the point

Laura: point. Yeah.

Emma: and then I don't go on the next day So you know as I said

Laura: It's difficult. It's very difficult. Yeah,

Emma: I've you know got all the answers and as I say I work for myself from home and it's just me so it's very easy

Laura: yeah. Yeah.

Emma: me to

Laura: do I. Yeah. [00:37:00] But sometimes I miss that. I must say I miss that a lot. there's a marketing professional that I know in the industry that's currently, getting us all together marketers into co-working spaces, just so we can share ideas. And I thought, no, not Anna. Nicola Clement.

Emma: Oh okay Yeah I

Laura: Yeah. I think she's a retailer.

Yeah.

Emma: yeah such

Laura: and did Anna say the same thing? Yeah. Yeah.

Emma: Yeah yeah

Laura: idea. Love it.

Emma: yeah And I think you know to the earlier point about working for yourself like everything there's there's pros and cons and that is one of the mo the more challenging things when you're used to being part of a team and you're used to having you know people around to bounce ideas off and you know get energy from and give energy to and and suddenly it's it's it's just you That that is a transition And I think that there are things like that and and there is you know I I think a a growing kind of community of of people who are now starting their [00:38:00] own businesses working for themselves who are craving that and they're kind of

Laura: Yes. Yep.

Emma: that connection back Like let's be

Laura: Mm-hmm.

Emma: other which I think is lovely I think it's

Laura: Yeah, I love it.

Emma: to see

Laura: I love it. So I'm, I'm always looking for ways to get out of the house.

Emma: Yeah exactly Yeah Go and go and be around people when

Laura: I.

Emma: when yeah When you work with with clients do you often spend do you go to client site Do you spend time on their site or are you typically working remotely or does it does it depend

Laura: I try to do whenever I'm talking to a new client, I always, and, and any clients really, I try to encourage myself to go into their offices and some really appreciate that. And then there's some that just, you know. I'll be online and, and that's okay. You know, so I, I sort of work with what they like. So I've got one client currently that I've never met in face-to-face.

but you know, it just happened to be that way and it's [00:39:00] okay. but I do have another client who, I went for the, our first meeting I went to the, their office and he said to me, you know, wow, I'm really impressed by you. And I said, why? And he said, you actually. You, you had a choice. Her, his executive assistant asked me, do you wanna come to the office or do you want to do it online?

And I preferred to go to the office and he said, I'm so impressed with the fact that you came to my office. And it was like an hour drive for me. So not close on the other side of the city because he said, I just, I love that human interaction. And you said, I'm really glad that you did that. And I said, it's so important when I meet my first, first client, first time I, I like that face-to-face.

So,

Emma: Yeah And I

Laura: yeah.

Emma: does send a message as well even you know even even in today's climate and and often with client my own clients or questions that get asked on LinkedIn people will say oh if I've got the option if I'm given the option for interview should I should I choose in person And I'm like[00:40:00] 

Laura: Yes.

Emma: yes

Laura: a hundred percent. Yes.

Emma: for your own benefit as as theirs because

Laura: Hundred percent.

Emma: see the space you get to for want of a less you know formal term You get to feel the vibe you get to meet the person

Laura: Yeah.

Emma: so so important

Laura: And it's so important.

Emma: Yeah

Laura: And back in the days when the interviews were always in the office, you know how many times I've turned up to the office and I thought this was a great job, great role. Amazing. And I get into the office and I look at the culture there and the vibe, and I'm like,

Emma: Yeah

Laura: no, thank you.

Emma: Yeah

Laura: can feel it.

Emma: as well Yeah I remember very clearly going through a an interview process and it was the classic it was the classic perfect job on paper and you know every logical point was going you should be falling over yourself for this There was just something a a an energy in the office that I couldn't tell you what it was I couldn't describe it I couldn't put my finger [00:41:00] on it but I felt it and I was just like this isn't the right place for me and you are never gonna get that on on teams zoom whatever

Laura: No.

Emma: it's there's something to be said for the old school

Laura: Ah, yes, I think so. I agree.

Emma: Final question Lauren It's always the final question here and that is what do you know now that you wish you knew then

Laura: I'm gonna say panic slowly. And that's actually a quote from my executive coach from Jack Phillips. and that stuck with me for a long time because when something goes wrong in life, or especially in business, and our instinct is always to react quickly and we just rush to fix it. So we operate with urgency, you know, and I think Jack really taught me.

Panic slowly, Laura. So learning how to pause, how to assess the situation, [00:42:00] how to respond calmly under pressure. It actually, it's, it's such a valuable leadership skill, but it also, gives you an ability to make clear decisions and probably that decision will be the right one at the end. so yeah, I wish I had known that earlier.

Emma: That's a good one And certainly as you said from that outward leadership perspective a hundred percent but also probably from your own internal

Laura: Oh yeah.

Emma: system that you are not like giving yourself that

Laura: You're not stressed. Yes.

Emma: take a breath You know She said you're gonna make a much better yeah you're gonna make a much better More logical more thought through decision and and of course you know the the impact on your on your team here Panic slowly Good one Thanks Jack I like that one

Laura: Thanks, Jack.

Emma: Thank you so much for joining me Laura I've really enjoyed the conversation and loved hearing your on things and Good on you for for taking the leap and going forward with your with your business and yeah great [00:43:00] to hear that it's all going well and may it continue to do so for you

Laura: Thanks for having me, Emma. It was a lovely conversation.