Surviving A Toxic Workplace: An HR Leader’s Framework for Self-Awareness, Self-Care & Empowerment

In this episode, I’m joined by HR leader and author Teri Chilcoat to talk about the realities of toxic workplace cultures, why so many people stay longer than they should, and what you can do to protect yourself when you find yourself in one.

Teri shares her own career journey, unexpectedly finding her way into HR through a temp role, to experiencing severe workplace bullying as the sole HR person inside a toxic leadership environment.

That experience ultimately inspired her to write a book designed to help others recognise toxic dynamics earlier and navigate them more effectively.

Throughout our conversation, we explore:
✅ The signs and symptoms of toxic workplaces
✅ Why dysfunction often becomes normalised
✅ How toxic environments impact both physical and mental health
✅ The “toxicity triangle” and how unhealthy cultures are sustained
✅ Why high performers are often protected despite poor behaviour
✅ The long-term impact of burnout and chronic stress
✅ How COVID and remote work changed workplace culture
✅ Why younger generations are raising expectations around leadership and wellbeing

Teri also shares her practical framework around:
✅ Self-awareness
✅ Self-control
✅ Self-care
✅ Self-empowerment

We talk about the importance of focusing on what you can control, building healthier coping mechanisms, recognising red flags earlier, and creating more agency for yourself, even in difficult environments.

If you’ve ever questioned whether a workplace was healthy, struggled with burnout, or felt trapped in a difficult environment, there’s a lot in this episode that will resonate. And give you some practical advice and guidance on what to do.

To connect with Teri:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-chilcoat-phr/
Website: innerauthoritycompany.com

Can you also find episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EmmaGrahamCareerCoach/videos

Your host, Emma Graham, Career Coach and ex-recruiter, is here to help you with:

 💡 Gain clarity on what’s important to you
 💡 Confidently communicate your value
 💡 Build a personal brand and a strong network
 💡 Take a strategic approach to your next move
 💡 Navigate the job market effectively
 💡 Build career confidence with a repeatable success blueprint

🌐 Explore my coaching programs and free resources:
 Website: https://www.egconsulting.au/
 LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/emmajgraham
 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmagrahamcareercoach/

🎁 Free Resources:
 📄 CV Development Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/cv-advice
 📄 LinkedIn Profile Optimisation Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/linkedin-profile-guide

📅 Book Your FREE Career Strategy Discovery Call:
 https://calendly.com/emmagrahamconsulting/discovery-call

Transcript

Emma [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to Your Career Journey, the podcast designed to be your compass through the twists and turns of career development.

Today, I'm joined by HR leader and author Teri Chilcoat to talk about the realities of toxic workplace culture, why so many people stay longer than they should, and what you can do to protect yourself should you find yourself in one. What struck me about her framework and her advice is that it's highly relevant, not just to toxic workplaces, but also to life in general.

Join me as Terri talks us through it

Emma: Teri, welcome. Thanks so much for joining me.

Theresa: you, Emma. This is such a pleasure.

Emma: Tell me a little bit about your career story. How did you get to be where you are today? Take us,

Theresa: Wow.

Emma: Talk us

Theresa: That is a journey, that's for sure. Well, growing up, I grew up with a single mom, me and my sister, so I knew we didn't have a lot of money growing up. We [00:01:00] shopped one day... You know, one year at Kmart for clothes and hand-me-downs from my cousin and... So I know we didn't have a lot of money. So finding a job was just...

It was a job. It was never about, you know, like what's your purpose or passion or anything like that. It was just get a job to pay bills. And I literally stumbled into HR taking a temp assignment at Time Warner Cable. It was supposed to be a two-day data entry. It ended up being two and a half years. And you fast-forward, you know, 10 years in HR, and I just realized that one day I woke up and I'm like, "There's gotta be something more to this."

And especially after going through a toxic workplace, I realized a lot of people don't have resources, because I didn't have resources in this situation because I was being bullied by an executive team, and I was the only HR person and I didn't have a resource. So this book came out of really kind of like literally a [00:02:00] survival guide to help others, because I knew I was not alone in this journey, that others needed resour- a resource that feel like they didn't have one.

Emma: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I'd imagine when you're in that situation, particularly as someone who works in HR, there's almost that double layer to it because

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: the HR person. You're the person that people would normally go

Theresa: Exactly.

Emma: and yet you're, you're the person

Theresa: It's, it was very surreal because I've done thousands of investigations of complaints of, you know, harassment or toxic workplace or whatever, and sitting on this, you know, one side being HR and having these conversations, but then being on the other side was like, oh my God, like this is a whole nother level of an experience that I never knew how bad it could be because it can be very isolating.

Emma: Very

Theresa: It can make you feel like you're crazy. It can [00:03:00] make you feel like you're not competent depending on the situation, and it's really hard for people to come forward. So it made me really appreciate and empathize more with those that do come forward that feel that something is wrong and to have the courage to do that.

But when you're in HR, it was very... It, it was actually very jarring because to be experiencing it personally and being in HR was, it was just very nerve-wracking.

Emma: Very dark. Very- Mm. How, how did that situation come to be? Was it, was it one particular individual? Was it a, a, a broader kind of culture within the organisation? I- if you don't mind,

Theresa: yeah, it was actually,

Emma: to,

Theresa: basically the mean girls group is what happened, and I was just... Literally, they would gang up on me. They would find things to accuse me of not doing right or, you know, like I hadn't done my job or I was incompetent or I didn't know what I was doing.

Emma: off.

Theresa: [00:04:00] months I went through this and I just realized that there's no way I'm going to convince these people otherwise.

Like they have an agenda and it doesn't matter what I say or do,

Emma: know. I didn't have

Theresa: And I'm not a proponent for just leave your job if you're unhappy, but my mental health was

Emma: mental

Theresa: really struggling and I got to the point where I just have to step out and have faith that there's something else better out there.

And that's when I started thinking like I need to write down what I went through. And it was actually very cathartic to be able to write down and,

Emma: feel.

Theresa: help people realize you are not alone

Emma: not crazy. Whatever

Theresa: that you have every reason to feel the way you feel.

Emma: Mm. and, as you said there, there's a huge difference between, I'm, I'm unhappy, there's a situation that's a little bit challenging, but [00:05:00] maybe I can see a way that it's gonna resolve itself

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: you know, feeling like you're, you're being bullied or,

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: serious, issue that you, you cannot see being resolved.

They're,

Theresa: Yes

Emma: different ends of the,

Theresa: The spectrum, yes. Yeah, I mean, I've worked w- I mean, everybody's worked with a manager that is difficult or, like, there's, they just seem like they're incompetent and, you know, the Peter Principle's high and dry. You know, they're just so out of their depth of what they're doing. And, you know, we always have those people, and I've complained about them, but this is a different level of where you literally have a visual, visceral experience.

I have an upset stomach, a headache going to work, and I dreaded going to work. Those, those are the symptoms that this isn't just a dysfunctional place. Like, if you are having physical symptoms, regardless if you try to keep pushing yourself forward, your body keeps score, and literally you're stuffing that down trying to justify and [00:06:00] rationalize it.

Your body can only take so much, and it will, it'll tell you enough is enough.

Emma: Hmm. It's so interesting, isn't it? and there, you know, there, there must be some sort of, of, I don't know, evolutionary psychological reason for it. But so often in that situation, do exactly what you said there. We, we try to rationalize, we

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: justify, we try to play it down.

Theresa: Mm-hmm.

Emma: blame ourselves

Theresa: Exactly, yeah.

Emma: must be something I'm doing." and, yeah, it, it seems to be a very common reaction, in, in that scenario. Yeah.

Theresa: Unfortunately, that's human nature, is if there's something that happens out of the ordinary, the brain does not like unknown or something that's out of the, out of repetition. So if you see some odd behavior or somebody saying something, usually the brain will be like, "Okay, I'm gonna give this person the benefit of the doubt.

They're just having a bad day." Like, rationalize and justifying somebody's behavior. And then over [00:07:00] time is do you want to expose yourself and be the one that says something? Now you're running the risk of being ostracized or being the target of that, you know, whatever abuse is happening or whatever is happening in that workplace.

And, basically that goes back to human nature too, is we are very much pack people, like we wanna be accepted. That, that's how we survived, is that we stuck together as a group. That's how you were protected, and if you were outcasted from the group, that basically was a death sentence. So it's still ingrained in our brain that you do what you need to do to survive, and your body literally goes into survival mode, and you will rationalize and justify even the worst ar- things that happen, and that's why people end up normalizing dysfunctional behavior because everyone as a collective has agreed that this is now normal.

Emma: Yeah. there is a really interesting graphic in your book, the, the [00:08:00] triangle

Theresa: triangle? Yes.

Emma: a-and part of that is the, I guess the response of the majority or

Theresa: Yes

Emma: the majority of people that kind of normalize it, that

Theresa: Yes, the followers. Mm-hmm.

Emma: yeah,

Theresa: and the colluders. Yeah, so you need three variables. You need the person that's toxic, you need a culture that has zero accountability, and then you have the followers, willing or unwilling. So you have people that collude with the leader that are in on it, maybe they're, they have favoritism, or maybe they think this, that it's fun, this behavior that's occurring, like they're getting something out of it.

And then followers will follow just out of the sense of survival. Like, "I just, I'm gonna keep my head down, fly under the radar. I'm just gonna ignore it. I don't wanna lose my job. I don't wanna stick my neck out. I don't want that to happen to me." So that's why it's so difficult to get rid of toxic behavior, is that it's not just one person, it's several different [00:09:00] variables, and that means everybody has to be held accountable, and that means the sales manager that's making a lot of money, you can't excuse his bad behavior anymore.

You have to hold him accountable just as everybody else.

Emma: Yeah, it's, it's so funny that you,that's the example that you sort of naturally go to because it is often

Theresa: Oh, 100%, yes.

Emma: in recruitment for, for many years and, and, and that is, you know, such a, such a, a trite in recruitment. There's always that one really

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: salesperson who treats everyone terribly, but guess what?

They make a lot

Theresa: Yep, the lone wolf.

Emma: their, yeah, their, their, behavior gets excused and everyone goes, "Oh, don't worry about

Theresa: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Emma: like, "Is

Theresa: Yeah, and you're scratching your head like, "How is this acceptable?" But then everyone makes you sound like you're crazy like, "Why are you upset about it? That's just the way he is." And it's like, "This, that's not normal."

Emma: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, as I, as we're talking about it, I have a very [00:10:00] specific picture in my mind of that scenario and, and that person actually, but we'll, we'll move

Theresa: I know. I know.

Emma: The other thing, or many things actually, but one thing that struck me, sort of early on in the book, you, you're talking about, statistics and, quite interesting statistics about people talking about their own organizations and the percentage of people who would label their own,

Theresa: it's

Emma: as,

Theresa: high.

Emma: It's unbelievably

Theresa: Yes. Yes. I think it's like over 52% even CEOs and like one in three employees would say it's dysfunctional or toxic in one way or another. And that's where the disconnect comes, is that you have organizations that'll do surveys and all kinds of other stuff, engagement questions or whatever, but how- honest are people being because culture really is a living, breathing organism beyond whatever you have posted on a, you know, your s- your lunch board or whatever [00:11:00] saying, "This is our values.

This is our mission statement." It is how you interact and the behaviors that are projected and accepted that really create the culture.

Emma: The, the one that really stood out to me, you mentioned it there, was the,CEOs, I think it was 52%. And I was reading that thinking, talking about the organization that you lead." you can do something about that.

Theresa: again, it goes back to do you wanna be the person that sticks your neck out and say, "Hey," especially if you report to a board,

Emma: Yeah.

Theresa: you know, a board, y- or at a group, and that's a whole problem, is it really takes somebody that has the stomach and the willingness to really

Emma: Yeah.

Theresa: to make that change. And if he doesn't have buy-in from, you know, key stakeholders and the executives or even the board, th- they won't do it.

Like, a perfect example is, like, say your CFO is a, a terrible person to work with, but he's helping the [00:12:00] company make m- millions of dollars. Well, we're not gonna worry about him because he's too much of an asset. We don't wanna get rid of him regardless of how toxic he is, and that's a problem. As a CEO, what is he gonna do?

I mean, his job could be on the line if somebody decides... 'Cause at the end of the day, a lot of it is politics and what game you play.

Emma: And incentives, I guess, as well, isn't it?

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: you know, we're,

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: to, to the incentives that are at play. And if,

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: ultimately your job, your livelihood, your, you know, your revenue stream, then perhaps you're, you're gonna act and, behave, behave differently. The other thing, the other question I had in my head as I was reading that opening section where you're talking about, you know, numerous studies and, the prevalence, I guess, of, of sort of toxic, toxic workplaces. Do you think it's becoming-- Is it that we are experiencing more toxic workplaces, or is it that we're more aware of it, or is [00:13:00] it kind of a combination of the two, do you think?

Theresa: I think the gloves came off during COVID, and it's never gotten better. In, in our country right now too, I think with the, the current culture, with the admin- current administration, that we've now made it okay to just talk to people with absolute disrespect. Empathy is now be considered a weakness Which is very sad because it's very crucial to successful leadership.

These soft skills that are in dire need are now looked at as a sign of weakness. So I, I think it's really a combination of a lot. It's... But it's also organizations. Are you more focused on just the bottom dollar, or are you willing to create an organization that people thrive and are engaged? And it's study after study.

I mean, engaged, highly engaged employees make you money. So I, I don't know why it's such a, a, [00:14:00] a tripping point for some, but it just seems to be forgotten that employees are your asset to the success or failure of your company.

Emma: Yeah. And, and to your point there about COVID,I'm, I'm in Melbourne

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: the longest lockdown city in the

Theresa: Oh, wow.

Emma: we had a, yeah, we had a, a pretty extreme COVID experience, and it does here feel like a, a line

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: of collective PTSD. I, I often,

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: that phrase, and I think you can see it not just in the workplace but in sort of society in general that people just aren't that polite anymore

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: have gone out the

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: and, and just the way people are interacting on the street, you know, in the supermarket, whatever, has completely changed.

it does feel very different, and then I think you layer into that working from home and, and there is now... I was gonna say quite adversarial. I don't know if that's a bit [00:15:00] dramatic. I, I don't think that it is

Theresa: Mm-hmm.

Emma: quite sort of adversarial, well, we want to stay working from home, and companies

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: back, and it's, it's become this real kind of push-pull,

Theresa: Yes, 100%, because it worked for so long, but now you're saying that we need to have you back in. And I think what it comes back down to is that there's a lot of real estate that they own or they're renting, and there's nobody in there, and they realize that I need to put bodies back in the chair, and that's where the problem is that it's been over four...

three or four years. I work from home. It works. My life is... I've established my life around this, and now you're disrupting it. So that's the challenge is it's a very knee-jerk reaction is... It was a knee-jerk reaction to send everybody home, but we took forever to bring everybody back, so now it's the same reaction to where is the...

Like, 30 days is not realistic to expect people to disrupt their entire lives. [00:16:00] So why you expect people not to be upset is, is just... I think it's hilarious that you don't understand the normity of how impactful that is.

Emma: I, I do think, though, we've lost a bit of connection probably through that, and

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: I've... I don't know how

Theresa: Mm-hmm.

Emma: very much for, for Melbourne. But- I, I think you see it, you feel it. Certainly when I talk to people, there, there is a more of a sense of, of disconnection.

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: but you know, as you said, it, it's a complex issue. There's no simple black or white answer. The answer is often the case is in the nuance.

Theresa: Yes. Yeah.

Emma: easy when you're trying to make one rule for, you know, 5,000 people or whatever. It's quite difficult.

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: But yeah, interesting that you think that is, that's led to, to kind of that proliferation and, and, and it does seem as well that, a, a greater awareness as well that people are perhaps [00:17:00] expect more

Theresa: Mm-hmm.

Emma: maybe they used to from their workplaces in, in terms of the culture and, and how that culture supports

Theresa: 100%. The younger generations, Gen Z, Gen, millennials, they are not willing to put up with what older generations have been putting up with.

Emma: Yeah.

Theresa: work-life balance, they want communication, they want recognition. pay is not on the top of their list. When you look at the five top things, it is about the connection to the work, the meaning, the purpose, and feeling that they are being valued.

And there's a lot of organizations that are... still don't get it, but they are willing to walk becau- and they will not have another job lined up. 70% of them will walk without even having another job,

Emma: Yeah.

Theresa: which that blows my mind, but that's how s- they are so adamant about, this is what I'm going to ask for, and if I don't get it, I will leave, and I won't even wait that long to leave."

Like, less than [00:18:00] 30 days, and that's, like, one in three will leave within less than 90 days. So that's even more important to, for organizations to realize it's not just about toxicity, it's about the dysfunction of how you're treating your employees and what they're willing to put up with. And I commend the younger generations for doing it.

I mean, we needed a disruption, and they, they really are challenging the norm.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's move on to talk about it from the, the more positive standpoint, Terry. Let's, let's talk about the, the, the positive things that you have, have learnt from this experience, the, the frameworks, the

Theresa: Mm.

Emma: that you've, that you've put into the book and, let's, let's shine the light on the, on the,

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: things that came. One, one thing that did really strike me, and I was just saying to you a bit before we, started recording, was, although the book is about, you know, surviving the

Theresa: [00:19:00] Mm-hmm.

Emma: and, and framed in that way, so much of what you talk about and the, the approach that you suggest struck me as- life survival guide, not just,

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: not just work.

It, it felt much, to me, felt much broader than that from a, from a mindset kind of approach. Yeah.

Theresa: Definitely, because when you're in a toxic workplace, you feel like you're stuck, you don't have any options. You feel, I mean, you can be depressed, you know, you- anxiety, stress. Like, you're just... You feel like your whole life is disrupted, and you don't have any options. And I really wrote it to help people realize that if you really wanna make a change, there are steps that you need to take, and that's why I created, you know, self-awareness, self-control, self-care, and then self-empowerment.

Because if you wanna make a change, you have to go through a process, and that's what I wanted people to realize is you don't have to stay where you are, [00:20:00] that it's not quit or find another jo- or stay, that there are many possibilities. You could start, you know, a side hustle. You could find something you're passionate about, a hobby you could do outside of work.

Maybe go back to school, get a certification. You know, maybe, you know, get better in Excel, whatever that is. But to find something that moves you forward, that the first step is self-awareness to realize, "What am I doing in my world that I have control over, and where do I need to, hold myself accountable to changing how I'm showing up and what I'm willing to accept?"

And that's how you become empowered.

Emma: I love that you started from that perspective. It, it felt, it, it, it did feel empowering because, you know, as you said, and I think you do say in the book that, yes, it's a terrible situation, but you're not a victim in that

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: even though someone may be treating you very,

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: badly. There's things that you can do that

Theresa: [00:21:00] Mm-hmm.

Emma: control of, that you can do for yourself. and it felt, yeah, it felt like a much more empowering solution. and the other thing that you just said there that, that really rings true, and it's something I see a, a lot, in, in my work as well with my clients is, and it may not be a toxic workplace, it might just be that they feel a

Theresa: Yeah. Yeah.

Emma: when people are in those scenarios that it does become quite binary and, and they, they do see

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: or leave and, and they can't necessarily see the, as you laid out there, the, the myriad of, of other options that actually are available

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: the, the situation does kind of makes you feel like it's much more narrowed down than it is.

Theresa: Especially when you're stressed out because you're just in fight or flight, and that's just survival. So your prefrontal cortex is not working. You're not rational. You're not making d- you know, good decisions. You're, you're basically functioning from the l- reptile brain. You're just [00:22:00] literally just, you know, eat, sleep, and get through the day.

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Theresa: So that's why it becomes very narrowed and very- a binary, like you're saying, this one or the other.

Emma: And,

Theresa: And when you go through these, this process, it helps you realize,

Emma: realise, I

Theresa: "I need to take a step back, pause, and get back into

Emma: into

Theresa: the prefrontal cortex so I can make a decision

Emma: from

Theresa: from a rational, calm mind, not stressed out and do or say something I'm gonna regret later because I was not in the right frame of mind."

Emma: how does someone do that? Like how, how do they... 'Cause you say it like it's, "Oh, I, I just get back into my r- my calm, rational mind." And obviously it's

Theresa: It- Believe me, it's not... Yeah. It is. It really is, believe me.

Emma: does,

Theresa: in it, yeah,

Emma: does that

Theresa: I know. I don't mean to minimize it because I know.

Emma: suggesting you

Theresa: I know. I know it sounds really easy, but I guess part of it really is a first step is [00:23:00] really just taking a step back and saying, "Okay, where do I have agency right now?

Where do I have control over what's happening?" And that's how I respond, how I react to what's happening around me, and that's the awareness. So what part can I change, either how I react or how I have autonomy or agency over my job? And focus on where you're... Basically, it's the circle of influence.

Stephen Covey, in his book Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, he talks about the circle of concern versus the circle of influence. So many people spend so much time, 90% of nine, of, is the circle of concern. We have no control over it. And where you need to realize is writing down, "What do I have control over?"

And number one is how I choose to show up and respond to whatever's happening to me. And if you can list where you do have control, then you start [00:24:00] feeling like you have a little bit more empowerment of what's happening. You're not giving up your power to everybody because you're focusing on something that's never going to change.

And that's important. And to realize is letting go of what you can't control and focusing on what you can control.

Emma: I think that is, and to my earlier point about it feeling like, you know, life lessons, not just toxic

Theresa: it is. Yeah.

Emma: I think that is such a key, such a critical, point to, to make and, and, and sh- and as you say in the

Theresa: Yeah.

I think taking that very conscious decision to, to not get pulled into, to not get riled up by, to not be reactive to, to things that you, [00:25:00] you can't do anything about them. talk about in the book. Like, yeah, what you said is, you know, if you're already feeling overwhelmed at work, don't be doom scrolling on social media. Though that's not gonna help the anxiety and the stress, and that's where I help people, like realize, are you self-medicating? Are you doing things that are not helping your situation?

And that goes to self-awareness is, I didn't realize I was drinking so much coffee, and it was making my anxiety and stress even worse. Well, duh, I didn't think anything of it until I quit drinking, you know, triple lattes three times a day, you know? And that's, that's where people need to realize in checking in with themself is, what am I doing that could be exacerbating my situation?

Am I doom scrolling? Am I drinking too much caffeine? Am I doing behaviors that are not helping me at work outside of work, too? So it's, I already know that work is stressful, but what can I do [00:26:00] outside of work that will be beneficial to balance what's happening at work? So that, that's why I, what you mentioned is it is all-encompassing because it d- we don't leave work at home, and home doesn't leave us at work.

So that's where you, they, they're intertwined, and we spend over a third of our lives at work. So how can it not have an impact on us?

Emma: and I'm sure there's things, you know, as you mentioned there, like coffee, like, like social media, that in the moment probably feel like a release. You

Theresa: Yes,

Emma: three lattes a day, I could imagine someone thinking, "Oh, well this is, you know, 15 minutes away from my desk. This is a bit of me time.

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: is something I enjoy," and you know, all, all kind of positive things. But if the flip side of that is that you're drinking, you know, nine shots of

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: day,

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: not be very helpful.

Theresa: Yeah, and a lot of it is, is sometimes you just need to get outside. Like, that's what I talk about is get out of the situation. [00:27:00] Like, like the other day, I was just having a really stressful day, and I'm like, "I need to go outside and take a walk. I just need, I need to get away from here because what I'm sitting here is not helping.

I'm just getting more aggravated." So I went and did a walk around, like around the building, you know, 10 minutes, came back, and I felt a lot different because once, when I was outside, anytime you're in nature, it always helps change how your brain is operating and then just a different perspective, like just getting away from it for a few minutes, being able to calm down and, and just get in touch with what's really going on is where...

And that's what's key is just being self-aware of what, what's affecting me right now and what can I do to make myself feel better.

Emma: Yeah. And, and as you said, that, that kind of taking a step back and realizing the stuff that you're perhaps even doing by habit, like

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: like the

Theresa: Mm-hmm.

Emma: like the, you know, come in from work, open the fridge, immediate

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: You know, been there,

Theresa: 100%. Yep.

Emma: you know, [00:28:00] all of those things that we're

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: on

Theresa: Oh. Yes.

Emma: without actually stopping to go, "Why do I feel like I need a glass of wine every time I walk in the house?"

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: that a good idea?

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: and maybe finding better, more healthy coping

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: than, than the coffee or the wine or the social media or whatever.

Theresa: No, and I was in that vicious cycle, like I'm drinking, you know, you know, grande lattes from Starbucks all day. Now I need to unwind. I'm so stressed out, so okay, I'm gonna have

Emma: Yeah.

Theresa: of wine. I wake up in the morning, I g- I'm tired, I'm hungover because, you know, two turned to three or whatever, and now more coffee.

So I'm in this vicious cycle, and it's not helping the situation at work, is work is already crappy as it is, but now I'm compounding it

Emma: why

Theresa: by drinking too much caffeine and drinking too much alcohol at night, not sleeping well, not eating well, definitely not drinking enough water. So it's just a whole [00:29:00] combination of what am I doing in my life that work is one thing that's bad, but what am I doing that could possibly be compounding the problem?

Emma: better. When, when you were in that role and, and before you'd made the decision to, to leave, were you able to start to implement these things? Were you, were you able to, to do that in, in that scenario and start to think, "I need to...

Like, let's step away from the coffee. Let's..." You know, the, the things that you mentioned there?

Theresa: Yeah, I had start- I had stopped drinking coffee.

Emma: copy.

Theresa: I was laid off in March of 2025, so I had to stop the Starbucks run every day 'cause I started that during COVID. Like, that was my big outing, was going to Starbucks every day. I think that was for a lot of people. So once I lost my job, I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna have to s- you know, come up with another plan, like make it myself or something."

So I had actually cut back significantly on coffee before, but then I started drinking it [00:30:00] again even more when I was there. So then when I got in that situation, so then I realized that I need to go back to less coffee and less alcohol at night. But it's just so easy to fall in that pattern because it's a quick fix for you wanting to feel better, and it's j- it does take time.

It's not a, something that happens overnight to be able to make those habits to where you gotta, it, sometimes you just gotta feel uncomfortable for a while because

Emma: I

Theresa: it, that's what you have to do to get through it, is just learn to sit with being uncomfortable.

Emma: And I think that's, that's the reality, isn't it? And, and why we do those things in

Theresa: Exactly.

Emma: be- because, you know, we're, we're not great at that as a, as

Theresa: Nope, I wanna make it go away, so I'm gonna make it go away right now.

Emma: Yeah, absolutely. one of the other things you, you talk about, we mentioned self-awareness, we talked about, self-control and, and just focusing on the things that, that you can control and, [00:31:00] and not kind of getting sucked into the things that you can't. I think the other two, self-care and, and

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: of think about that, and then finally, self-empowerment.

Theresa: Mm-hmm.

Emma: talk to me about those, those, those last two.

Theresa: So self-care is something that, I mean, you're definitely not taking care of yourself when you're in those situations. I mean, just what we talked about is, like, that... None of that is self-care. I mean, that's, that's just, like, making s- your situation worse. So self-care to me was making sure, am I eating right?

Am I drinking enough water? Sleep. Sleep by far, sleep will make or break your life. In any other area of your life, if you do not get enough sleep, it literally affects every other part of your life. So if there's one thing you can change, I would suggest focusing on sleep and making it your number one priority to find a way to get good sleep, because everything else will...

does not matter if you are not getting enough good sleep. Because you end up eating crappy, you end up eating more [00:32:00] food because you're not sleeping, your metabolism gets all jacked up, your cortisol levels get all w- higher, and that's a stress hormone, so it just makes things even that much harder. And if you're already in a stressful environment, it's even more crucial for you to get a good night's sleep so your body can restore and prepare for whatever's happening the next day.

So that would be my biggest takeaway is focusing on sleep and finding ways to really nurture yourself, like working out, making sure you're working out, get time outside. Do things that are something that excites you or you're passionate about outside of work to offset the environment that you're working in.

Emma: Yeah. Th- that idea of offsetting, so, so important,

Theresa: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Emma: There's some light, there's some

Theresa: something to look forward to. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Emma: not just this, you know, horrible [00:33:00] situation

Theresa: Yeah, and then you go home and you just stew about it all night, so finding something, you know, if it's... If you enjoy Zumba or dancing or whatever, something that you really enjoy doing that you can escape from whatever's happening at work.

Emma: Yeah. And then tell me about that self-empowerment piece. What does, what does that look like?

Theresa: That's taking back your power, your energy. That's when you have self-control, because self-control is about being able to control how you react regardless of what's happening around you, and that's where someone has a truly... a peace of mind, and happiness comes from being in control of whatever's happening around you, and that's how you become empowered because- You're not giving up your energy.

You're not allowing people to... I mean, because basically, at the end of the day, you really are the one in charge of how you respond. It's nobody else. It's nobody made you do that. That is 100% you, and that's when you hold yourself accountable. It's actually a form of freedom when you hold yourself accountable, [00:34:00] and a lot of people think it's not.

Emma: Yeah, I was gonna say, 'cause as you say it, it, it sounds like quite an uncomfortable truth

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: you know, that actually, you know, the fact that, I don't know, that I blow up when someone's rude to me or

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: temper if I feel someone's

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: me, 'cause, you know, that's on them, they were rude.

Theresa: Exactly.

Emma: no. That's,

Theresa: the victim then.

Emma: you reacted.

Theresa: Yeah. You become the victim when you choose to get up, ma- blame somebody else, you are now the victim. But if I hold myself 100% accountable, like I got upset, you know what? That's on me, and why did I do that? Okay, you know what? I'm hungry. I need to get something to eat, or I slept horribly last night.

You know, normally I wouldn't react like that, and that's where the self-awareness comes in is, okay, you are still gonna be human and give yourself grace, but recognizing when that happened, why did it happen? So you can recognize like, "Okay, you know what? I didn't get a good night's sleep last night. I know I need to be [00:35:00] really aware of how I sound and what I'm doing because I'm not feeling 100%," and that's where self-care comes in too is giving yourself that grace.

Like today, you know, I might not be 100%.

Emma: Yeah.

Theresa: I'm, I'm here, but I'm just going to be more aware of I'm not feeling 100%, so I'll give myself grace.

Emma: Yeah. Giving yourself grace is, is such, I think, an important phrase and, I think not always the easiest thing to do

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: know, I think perhaps certainly b- for, for kind of our generation there was very much this kind of just push through it, you know,

Theresa: No way. Yeah.

Emma: You know, you'll...

Just keep going, you know? And, and actually

Theresa: Suck it up, buttercup.

Emma: actu- yeah, exactly. you know, I, I could literally, yeah. I could literally, I can hear myself in my own head saying that to myself in those, in those scenarios, and it's not particularly helpful. and, [00:36:00] and getting to that place where you can just say, "Do you know what?

I actually don't feel great today. I am not going to be, like, the best version of

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: Like, how, how can I kind of navigate around that?" or, or even, you know, just,giving that communication to, to someone that you're perhaps, you know, if you're,

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: one-on-one with someone of,

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: slightly, you know, "Not my best self today.

Just bear,

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: me." Or, you know, you, you don't have to, you don't have to kind of fake it in, in that

Theresa: Yes, and it's actually liberating. It's actually liberating, like, because I feel like you're, you're trying so hard to keep it together and keep this facade up that you're not really being authentic because you want so much to be like, "I got this. I got this. I'm p- gonna push through." But when you say it out loud, it's like, "Oh my gosh, that's such a relief."

Like, I don't have to carry this baggage around of trying to prove something I'm not today.

Emma: It's so true. A- and the other thing I think that often happens [00:37:00] off the back of that is you then give the people around you this kind of, you know, quote-unquote, permission

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: the same thing, and that's so often what happens I find. You know, I'll say to someone in a, perhaps in a session, I don't know, "I've, I've major brain fog

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: Bear with me. Like, the

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: coming. The thoughts aren't

Theresa: Yeah. Yeah.

Emma: they would normally be." A- and the reaction is, is normally, you know, "Oh, no worries at all. Like, you

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: and as you say, there's something quite liberating about that, so you're not, not only not feeling great, but you're, you're fighting yourself to

Theresa: Uh-huh.

Emma: that you feel

Theresa: Exactly. Just giving yourself permission to be human.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we're not that great at that

Theresa: Oh, no. No, no.

Emma: worst enemies in that scenario.

Theresa: No, we're, we're supposed to just get through this without any emotion.

Emma: Yeah, exactly. [00:38:00] I think maybe I'm just talking to myself there, but that's certainly been, that has certainly been true for me. Through, through this process of, of writing the book, Terri, I'd imagine it would've been quite cathartic. Do- did you find that? Did it

Theresa: 100%, yes.

Emma: it behind and, and draw a line under it?

Theresa: Yeah, it's really... 'Cause it's been, oh, almost a year now since I wrote it, and I look at it as that is the former, that's a former version of me, and that I've been able to come out on the other side

Emma: Yeah.

Theresa: a lot stronger, a, you know, obviously more wisdom and definitely empathy and compassion for people that are going through this.

And that's another reason why I wanna do it, is that I hope to help anybody at whi- you know, even if it's just one person, to let them know you're not alone, and that you're being seen, and you're valid in how you feel about the situation, regardless [00:39:00] of what people are saying, that you, you are not wrong to feel this way.

Emma: So interesting you use that phrase, a, a former version of yourself. I, I've I, I use that phrase

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: often, i- in relation to a, a particularly challenging time that, that I had,

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: with illness. So a slightly different scenario, but it, it's exactly that. I, I see that actually as a different person.

Theresa: Yes. Yes.

Emma: in a bad way, but

Theresa: No.

Emma: that person. even sometimes when I see an old photograph, I'm

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: is very different, that's not why, but I look at that picture and I'm like, "Oh, that's, that's me." Like

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: sort of remember

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: but not

Theresa: But

Emma: Yeah.

Theresa: what's great about it is that I would not be here today, who I am today, if that person had not gone... that former version of myself had not gone through that, and I appreciate... 'cause who I am today is [00:40:00] because of what

Emma: Hmm.

Theresa: went through and what she wanted to share, and I'm able to share it.

And another part that's nice about it is that I don't get triggered by it anymore because when I was writing it, it was... I mean, there was a lot of times I was crying and it was just gut-wrenching to write some of the stuff and to be, I guess, not necessarily vulnerable, but to be honest with myself about how bad it was and to be truthful of, you know, I need to put this on paper so I can move forward so I'm not carrying this with me the rest of my life.

Yeah. And thanks to her, what she did, I don't carry that burden with me, and I don't feel traumatized or that I'm a victim in any way, shape, or form.

Emma: and the other thing I'd... A- and this is a, a personal statement from me, but- now feel quite positively about the really difficult

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: [00:41:00] Like, I actually see it as a good thing because changed me so much that I wonder if I would've changed that much had it not been for something that extreme.

I, I

Theresa: Yeah.

would, or maybe I would, but I suspect it would've taken me significantly longer. unfortunately, it, it seems like we have to go through these really, really tough times for growth. Growth usually doesn't happen when we're happy because you're in a place that's comfortable. It does.

Emma: Yeah. I, I've observed that too when, you know, I'm having conversations like this or, or speaking to clients. It's, it is so often someone that's, made quite a profound change in their own lives. It is often off the back of something very difficult,

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: that, that has led to that,

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: to be, as you say, we-- I think we as humans need something to kind of jolt us to that degree

Theresa: Well, if you think about homeostasis Homostasis. Yeah. You know, if you don't [00:42:00] disrupt that, then we do not change. Like, very few people are willing to make a change when we're comfortable. But if you disrupt the homostasis, it's like, "Oh my gosh, this is so uncomfortable. I need to find a way to get back to there, so

Emma: absolutely.

Theresa: willing to do it now because I'm so uncomfortable."

Emma: Final question,

Theresa: Uh-huh.

Emma: the final question here, and that is: what do you know now that you wish you knew then?

Theresa: Oh my gosh, about self-control and self-awareness. Yeah. It, I... Especially just being aware, like it's been... Like I thought I was aware before, but going through this, I had a whole, I have a whole nother level of awareness of am I part of the problem? Am I part of the solution? Am I willing to be spending my time and energy on things I have no control over?

Or am I willing to focus on the things that [00:43:00] I have influence over? And if I would've known that before, I mean, I think things would've been a lot different. But if you don't have the self-awareness, you don't know what you don't know.

Emma: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Just, just on that point, I, just as you were saying that, I wondered, do you now look back in hindsight and see any of the red flags that were maybe there through an interview process, or were they very, very well-hidden, do

Theresa: Oh, Emma, that's the biggest challenge is i- interviewing is like dating. Everyone's usually on their best behavior.

Emma: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We're amazing. Come and work here.

Theresa: And in fact, I joke in the book about like, these are the real questions I wanna ask. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10, you know, w- zen being, you know, a 1, a 10 being a star-spangled banner of red flags, how dysfunctional would you say or toxic your company is? And, you know, do you have a mean girls group, or do you have a hazing that people have to go through?

Like, these are the real questions you would love to ask, [00:44:00] but you know, you can't because they'd think you're crazy. So I would suggest like looking on Glassdoor, Indeed reviews. Those really give you... I know there's people that are whacked, y- you know, wackadoodle comments and stuff, but there generally is a grain of truth if you start...

If you see a bunch of reviews and they have a common theme, there is some truth there. And then maybe just reach out to somebody on LinkedIn that works for the company and ask them, "Hey," you know, "what's your perspective or what do you think about the company?" And, you know, I, I just applied for a position.

Because those are the people that are generally gonna give you more of a true perspective of what's really going on.

Emma: Yeah, I think that's a great idea, and, and also reaching out to people who used to work there, 'cause that's a really

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: Because, you know, they, they may have left for, you know, a, a different role or

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: positive

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: they, they may have left because it was

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: horrible toxic culture and

Theresa: Exactly.

Emma: And they're more likely [00:45:00] to tell you if they don't still work there,

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: But yeah, I think that's, I think that's really

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: maybe we should start a movement, Terry, for, for interview questions like that. You know, on a scale of one to 10, how toxic is your environment?

Theresa: I mean, I would love to answer these questions. If they probably look at me like I had six heads and like, "Next."

Emma: the, going off on a slight tangent now, but to the earlier point about culture is essentially just the behavior of the people

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: there. I think asking more questions around behavior around certain things, you know, the values on the wall say

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: Z, what does that actually look like

Theresa: Mm-hmm.

Emma: Like, how is that demonstrated by the behavior of the people that work here? And,

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: you know, maybe you can't ask some of those. I'd quite like to. Maybe you can't ask some of those

Theresa: No, and that, that's a really good question. Yeah.

Emma: skirt around the outside of what does the [00:46:00] behavior actually look like. I always think like innovation is one of the ones that, often kinda gets put on the wall, but if you ask someone, "Well, what does that actually look like?

Like, h- what are the behaviors

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: are you innovating? If I come up with an idea and, and go to my line manager with this, 'Hey, I've got this great new...' Like, what happens? Like, how is that received?"

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: I think sometimes that can be helpful.

Theresa: No, 100%, and th- those are things that you hope people are honest during the interview process to help somebody, like, make a choice, "Is this a place I wanna work?" Like, it should be a win-win. It shouldn't be someone's not being transparent and they're deceiving you on what's really going on.

Emma: Yeah. I think often,people in- the people who are, being interviewed, the candidate doesn't always take enough kind of personal responsibility to, to ask some of

Theresa: Yep.

Emma: maybe slightly uncomfortable questions or, or kind of dig a [00:47:00] little bit. I, I sometimes think people, we can all just be a bit too nice and go, "Oh, tell me about the culture," you

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: "Oh, well, we're great. We, you know, rah, rah, rah."

Theresa: Yeah.

Emma: actually they're

Theresa: if you're like, "Oh my gosh, I want this job, I want this job, I want this job, I want this job, I want this job." I'm like

Emma: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and as she said, it should be, you know, in an ideal scenario, a, a 50/50. Back

Theresa: Mm-hmm.

Emma: analogy of you choose each other,

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: a, for a positive outcome. Yeah.

Theresa: So you can get married.

Emma: Exactly, yeah, and

Theresa: Yes.

Emma: after. Thank you, Terry. Thank you so much. I, as I said, I actually really enjoyed the book and, and found it to be, as I said before, not just, not just, workplace advice but, but

Theresa: Mm-hmm.

Emma: kind of life advice. And so enjoyed chatting to

Theresa: Thank you. I did too.

Emma: hearing about the, the positive outcomes that have, have come, have come out the other

Theresa: Yes. Mm-hmm. No, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation.

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