How to Build Resilience at Work: Leadership, Change & Thriving in Uncertain Times

How do you stay resilient when change feels constant?

In this episode, I'm joined by learning and development specialist Russell Harvey to explore what resilience really means, why it's becoming one of the most important skills we can develop, and how it can help us navigate uncertainty both at work and in life.

After a career spanning more than 20 years in leadership and organisational development,  including six redundancies, Russell has experienced more change than most. Rather than seeing resilience as simply "bouncing back," he describes it as learning, adapting and moving forward stronger than before.

We explore the realities of today's workplace, from rapid change and uncertainty to the pressure many leaders and teams are feeling, and discuss practical ways to build resilience without simply adding another task to an already full to-do list.

In this episode, we discuss:

✅ What resilience really looks like in today's workplace
✅ Why uncertainty isn't going away and how to respond to it
✅ The VUCA framework and how leaders can navigate change more effectively
✅ Practical strategies to move from surviving to thriving
✅ The importance of purpose, confidence and adaptability
✅ Why your strengths give you energy (and why that's important)
✅ How leadership behaviours shape culture and performance

Russell also shares his simple reflection framework to help you pause, learn from difficult situations, and focus your attention on the things you can actually influence. 

Whether you're leading a team, navigating a career transition, or simply trying to stay grounded in an increasingly unpredictable world, this conversation is full of practical ideas to help you build resilience and future-proof your career.

To connect with Russell:
Website & resources: theresiliencecoach.co.uk
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/russelltheresiliencecoach/

Can you also find episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EmmaGrahamCareerCoach/videos

Your host, Emma Graham, Career Coach and ex-recruiter, is here to help you with:

 💡 Gain clarity on what’s important to you
 💡 Confidently communicate your value
 💡 Build a personal brand and a strong network
 💡 Take a strategic approach to your next move
 💡 Navigate the job market effectively
 💡 Build career confidence with a repeatable success blueprint

🌐 Explore my coaching programs and free resources:
 Website: https://www.egconsulting.au/
 LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/emmajgraham
 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmagrahamcareercoach/

🎁 Free Resources:
 📄 CV Development Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/cv-advice
 📄 LinkedIn Profile Optimisation Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/linkedin-profile-guide

📅 Book Your FREE Career Strategy Discovery Call:
 https://calendly.com/emmagrahamconsulting/discovery-call

Transcript

Emma: So I'm joined today by Russell Thank you for joining me How are you doing

Russell Harvey: I'm good, Emma, thank you very much. How are you?

Emma: Very well Joining me all the way from the UK my my homeland

Russell Harvey: Yes, I know. We, we know we're looking after it for you essentially,

Emma: Good

Russell Harvey: God, don't know when it's

Emma: Good

Russell Harvey: out, but we've just done that traditional thing off air of like, "So the UK's having a heatwave." And then

Emma: Yes

Russell Harvey: in Australia's going, "Just stop. [00:01:00] You don't even know what you're talking about." So yes. Anyway, we think we're having a heatwave

Emma: You are I I'm on I'm on Team UK here You you are having a heatwave

Russell Harvey: Yeah, it

Emma: it never feels the same

Russell Harvey: No, it's a bit hotter than it normally is, so there we go

Emma: Yeah exactly You're melting tell me a bit about your career journey Russell What what brought you to the point that you're at now Take me back Tell me the story

Russell Harvey: Yeah. Thank you very much. Appreciate that. ever since I can remember, you know, I've always been interested in human behavior and what made pe- makes people tick, and why on earth do we do the things that we do, and why don't

Emma: Mmhmm Yes

Russell Harvey: That's always intrigued me.

And when I was at, careers conversations when you're, at school, you know, 14-ish, people used to say to me, "Oh, Russell, you're good with people. you should do sales or personnel." And at the time, both of those made me feel a bit ick, essentially. [00:02:00] However, there's some in that 'cause they weren't wrong, and we'll come back to that, in a minute, essentially. and then a real significant moment was I was traveling around the world for a year with my, lovely girlfriend at the time, now my wife. and as you do, stopped off in Hong Kong, and I was teaching local Hong Kong Chinese off the street. And for me, there was some magic that was happening in the room, essentially.

Didn't know what it was, but I'm thinking, "There's something gorgeous happening here. I'm loving this. Don't know what this is, but I think I wanna do this for a living." Come back to the UK, I'd worked out actually the magic was people learning, people having light bulb moments, realization

Emma: Mmhmm

Russell Harvey: It sort of gives a zap to my heart when people go from

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: face to aha moment. And at the time, you know, I went to recruitment agencies, and all I could e- equate it to was, a business trainer job title. So, you know, go to recruitment agencies and go, "I think I wanna be a business trainer." And they said, you know, "What are you qualified in? What do [00:03:00] you know?" Go, And out, essentially.

I just want to do it. So I took a

Emma: Yorkshire

Russell Harvey: s-

Emma: Good Yorkshire word for our Australian listeners nowt

Russell Harvey: Indeed, indeed. took a sales job, but then went to night school and did a certificate in training practice, and then got a training manager's job role. So, you know, pretty much 20-plus-year career in learning and development, leadership development, organizational development. And in that, coupled with six redundancies essentially.

Emma: Wow

Russell Harvey: and it was the sixth, where the timing felt right for me, to set up my own business essentially. I could've done it maybe a bit earlier, but it just felt right. Head, heart, and gut was in alignment. And my last permanent role was at the Co-op Group in Manchester, which formed essentially the, the name and w- the business of The Resilience Coach. Co-op Group, really loved the, the [00:04:00] role. Part of a large team of people supporting the top 300 leaders across the group. And not long after I joined, the world fell on everybody's heads with massive, massive change, you know. a backstory it, but an enormous financial black hole in the finances. all of my clients, you know, the internal leaders come to me with their head in their hands going, "What do we do?" And at the time, I had been looking at this word resilience, and I had been looking at this, an acronym of VUCA, which I know we'll talk about at some point. and so when I left the Co-op, knew that our area's gonna be restructured and another redundancy, I went, "Do you know what? It's time to set up by myself." And when I did the navel-gazing around what's my USP, do you know what?

It's like I am The Resilience Coach. That is what I have been doing, and that, and that was the name. So the, the whole career was... always been about how do I support organizations, teams to strike a much better balance people, [00:05:00] systems, process. So I'm absolutely in the people space.

Emma: Hmm

Russell Harvey: and I understand the validity of systems and process, but still now I still see organizations forgetting and not really understanding what that people element of the Venn diagram There's, there's still a n- whole lot more you can do, and that's what I mean the resiliency space is for me hu- resilient humans equals resilient organizations. And, and, I'll, you know, often

Emma: Nice

Russell Harvey: chart and just sort of go, "Right. Discuss."

Emma: Yeah And how do we do that Yeah

Russell Harvey: Yes, exactly. So

Six it. Yeah. That's the, the answer to

Emma: s

Russell Harvey: to that question.

Emma: awesome Six redundancies will teach you s a few things about yourself I'm sure

Russell Harvey: Yeah, do. They

Emma: That's tough Yeah

Russell Harvey: W- there was two that were real surprises, you know, I've, you know, just, you know, being called into the, r- room that you normally get called [00:06:00] into to just get an update on something or, know, something being shared. And yes, two of those times it's like, "Right, the business has just closed.

go home." It's just like, "What? Hang on a minute. Wait."

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: a-

Emma: Sorry

Russell Harvey: ask questions, and they go, "There's no questions to ask. We're done. It's, it's finished. Home." And it's just like, And then others, you know, you knew the writing was on the cards. And then, yeah, it's just, it's that number of times having to sort of, home to, you know, the lovely missus and go, it's

Emma: Yeah Guess what happened today

Russell Harvey: Yeah. And you know, it does, it teach you all about yourself, what makes you tick, how one faces into it in that particular moment in time. and whilst it is challenging, and yes, it was scary, think each time, I don't know, I'm either super stubborn, or each time it just consolidated for me, it was another opportunity to find a place [00:07:00] I could go somewhere where an organisation wanted to do something genuine about the people in the people, systems, and process bit,

Emma: And I'd imagine for what you do now like working so closely with people organisations and and individuals directly I'd imagine there's a lot of shared experience there that you're kind of able to bring to bear on on those conversations because there's quite a lot of uncertainty involved in six redundancies so

Russell Harvey: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. that's why, that's why I really like the, the VUCA piece, if it's all right to, you know, bring it

Emma: Please Yeah

Russell Harvey: because... So quite often as, once again, in, in modular sessions or talking to individual clients or doing speeches, you know, I'll walk into a room full of people and go, "Right, we all know change is constant." And, the room nods. You know? And people who may be watching, listening now will just nod. And I go,

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: let's [00:08:00] talk about this in a slightly better way." So this VUCA framework, it for me, is just a really great way of unpicking, much better, this, just those simple words of change is constant. So it, it is always going to be crazy somewhere in the world.

actually how much of it is impacting you in your job role or your organisation, organisation, or your perception that it's impacting you when it isn't. but then also thinking about actually, do you know what? It's not impacting me yet, however, I need to keep an eye on it 'cause it might essentially. and so underpinning... So I, I'll, so like buzzwords. So I'll throw eight buzzwords out there now, Emma. You know, they're just buzzwords, they're meaningless. So VUCA is the world we live in is volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. to face into it, you need VUCA Prime. The counterbalance is vision, understanding, clarity and [00:09:00] agility. And when you look behind the VUCA Prime, there are some leadership capabilities and some peak performance skills that humans and leaders and teams can think about, developing to face into a VUCA world. And for me, underpinning that first build and enable your resilience first to be able to face into the VUCA world essentially. So my specialism from my backstory is how to lead yourself and others really well in a full-on crazy world

Emma: It's it is in itself quite a strange word so I think it just kinda sticks cause you think it's a strange situation we we feel like we're all in and it's it's a strange word I was I was doing a bit of research on it and I saw that it originated in the US Army which how it then sort of found its way into I I guess that sort of management consulting training lexicon do you do you know how that do you know how that happened

Russell Harvey: as I understand it, so yeah, absolutely it was ... [00:10:00] So, so the ex-head of the armed forces Afghanistan and Iraq, and an occupational psychologist called, Dr. Louis Soka. his surname is C-S-O-K-A. they, I can't remember how they came together, but they came together and sort of said, "Ooh, do you know, I think there's validity taking this into the business world." And you know, how the military describe it is, "Do you know what? Our, our, office is a battlefield, and actually, you know what? It's volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous," you know? So trained at their military academies the peak performance skills, the leadership capabilities, things like, situational awareness, mental agility, learned instinct, commander's calm.

You know, all of these phraseologies, for actually, a- and situational awareness and foresight. So it's a case of imagine that you are lead on the battlefield. It's like I've got this situation awareness that over this, there's some craziness that's happening over there. something's happening behind me that I [00:11:00] just need to be aware of. Over there is something's, just, just bubbling away. However, I know from learned instinct that actually over my left shoulder here, this is where I need to focus my attention.

Emma: Mmhmm

Russell Harvey: and it's also, some great phraseology of, attention control. So leaders today need to understand actually where they focus.

So one of the other things I often do, I'm not trying to be provocative all of the time, but one of the sentences I sometimes goes, I go, "Right then. So there's no such thing as multitasking." then a room will respond, you know, people will immediately stick their hands up and go, "Well, I can do this and..."

And I

Emma: Yeah Oh

Russell Harvey: I understand that you can do this, do this, do this, and do this at the same time." Yeah? we kid ourselves as human beings that we are doing all of these multiple activities equally well, and we can't. So it's about where do you focus your attention. a lot of the time [00:12:00] with people that I support and leaders or on the development programs that I run, it's like, with everything that's going on in front of you, where are you choosing to focus your attention? impacting your decision-making about where you focus your, attention? So yeah, that,

Emma: Mmhmm

Russell Harvey: some people hate it. Some people are sick and tired of it. I've had HR directors that goes, "The next person that talks about VUCA, I'm gonna kick 'em out of me office," you know? And there are loads of people that have never heard of it, and

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: into it, lots of detail. the updated version is something called B-A-N-I. So, you know,

Emma: I haven't heard that one

Russell Harvey: yeah. So, but I just think actually, do you know what? We haven't, we haven't really faced into and understood VUCA enough yet before we move on to something else.

Emma: No Yeah

Russell Harvey: go.

Emma: a and I do think these things can be useful shorthand just to get the point get to the point quickly you know without having to explain well you know I'm talking about all the uncertainty and all the turbulence and the amount of change and you know it [00:13:00] takes I don't know 20 seconds 30 seconds to kind of say all that and preface and and give context versus just saying VUCA and and people kinda know and understand what you what you mean It was funny listening to you um uh talk about the the kind of battlefield analogies there The thing going through my head was I don't know if that makes me feel better or worse Like that we're that we're you know equating all the craziness that's that's going on in I was gonna say our working lives but let's be honest it's not just our working lives It it kind of feels like it's life in general with with what it's like to to be on the battlefield but you know hey ho

Russell Harvey: Well, and

Emma: That is the world we're in

Russell Harvey: yeah, yeah, yeah. And f- and so for me, this is when I sort of say, it's finding the routine for somebody because my intention is never to add to anybody's overwhelm, and my intention is not to add to anybody's to-do list. So when, individuals or people come to me, already full up essentially. and [00:14:00] then it's like I've got all of this collateral, content, ideas, tips, tools, techniques, resiliency, the VUCA stuff, I'm not sharing that with the intent to put that on top of else that's going on. It's like, so alongside all of this craziness you're doing, you've gotta do all these things as well. It's like, no, this is about replacement. You know, as a bare minimum, if you're feeling full, I just want to, as a bare minimum, keep that full the same. But actually

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: to do is for that fullness to

Emma: Just bring the level down

Russell Harvey: bring the level down, and you utilize all of this stuff, collateral, experience, you know, information that I've got to actually be able to do that.

So that's why it's working on the, the resiliency piece first because human can face into this, you know, battlefield with a

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: approach and a different mindset and different feelings about it[00:15:00] 

Emma: become one of those words It's a bit like authentic You know it it's become one of those words that's become very much part of the the lexicon that we all use And I think to a certain extent most people probably understand like give or take the same thing by resilience But there can be that that sense of resilience to your point about the level just means doing more sucking it up getting on with it and I know that that's not what you mean by it So tell me yeah tell me how you come to to think of it and and how you how you view resilience define resilience

Russell Harvey: Yeah, so I define it as springing forward with learning so that you give yourself the best chance that most of the time you are in what for you is thriving. And the definition of that is when somebody asks you, [00:16:00] "How are you?" are able to say, "Do you know what? There's a lot going on, and I'm good."

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: the measure, you know?

So that's, that's the after having worked with me. It's like, yes, there's still a huge amount going on, and I'm good. So springing forward

Emma: 

Russell Harvey: And so yeah, it is ... So there are times when you absolutely will need to be utilising your levels of resilience to face into challenges and get through something.

But ... And the, the challenge is, is to understand that that is only part, a temporary part of being resilient. So how people role model springing forward with learning is that from all of life's events, whether they're not so good ones or the good ones, they pause. And a pause can mean hundreds of different things, you know?

Having a good conversation with a friend, going for a walk, staring at the wall and [00:17:00] dribbling. You know, that's, that, that's a pause essentially. and listening to a podcast, or a great conversation with your team, that's a pause. And they ask themselves three questions. What behaviours have I been doing recently that have been serving me well against resilience skills?

So there's the resilience wheel, which I know we'll talk about. that's the first question. Second question is, what behaviours have I been doing against the resilience wheel that have not been serving me well? how do I do more of the answers to the first question? Getting into the habit of doing that is means that you'll be role modeling reflective practice, springing forward with learning, and then you will spend less time in the surviving and coping space, and more time in the thriving space. That's

support people around this

Emma: The the pause bit and and during the [00:18:00] pause bit the the reflection that that comes through those questions it's so interesting isn't it Because you know a again I've got this picture in my head of of someone who's got the you know the water's rising and it's it's kind of getting further and further up to their their forehead There's this you know idea of of kind of being on the hamster wheel and I'm going and I'm going and I'm going

Russell Harvey: yeah.

Emma: that doesn't necessarily lend itself to pausing cause if I pause on the hamster wheel I might get thrown off or you know something something happens For for people that that feel that that feel that sense of Oh I I couldn't possibly you know take that pause or or reflect how do you how do you kind of coach someone through that Like how do you get them to to just take their momentarily take their their foot off the the gas to to be able to to reflect in that way

Russell Harvey: So, w- when we've got to the stage where actually they're a client of [00:19:00] mine, the fact that we're having a conversation, it means that we're most of the way there essentially.

Emma: good point Yeah

Russell Harvey: the greatest challenge, is for everybody that's listening and watching now and everywhere I go, where they might hear what I'm talking about, and they're, in their subconscious or their conscious they're going, "You know, it's all well and good, Russell, but it's just...

I'm too full and I can't, I can't

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: So, the... What I am aiming to do all of the time is be the role model that... So a human being changes their behavior, steps off the hamster wheel, that looks like, when they see the value and benefits to them. So a human being changes their behavior when they go, "Ah, I, I can see that making the choice to do something different is going to be better," you

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: somehow. And, and so that is what, I'm doing in my conversations. So it's like, you know, it's the, all of those coaching questions around, you know, "So what's going on for you? How would you like to be different? What feels like the [00:20:00] easiest first step for you, you know, around this?" And it could be something really, really perceived as small, but it's like, it's the first step, you know? You've do-

Emma: Got to start somewhere

Russell Harvey: yeah, you've done something different. So, it really is, you know, trying to find a way to get them inside their own heads to paint the rainbow of their future selves in a different, better place. Because when they sort of go, "Do you know what? That's compelling enough

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: sort of engage..."

So if, if they're in that really full-up, overwhelmed place, it is, it's, it's trying to find a, you know, a chock in the arm or a chink of light in there,

that they suddenly realize, "Actually, do you know what? There is a better way." And, and, and that goes all the way back to Hong Kong and local Hong Kong Chinese and light bulb moments and faces going from, "Oh, there's a way of doing it."

And I'm going, "Yeah, [00:21:00] that, that." Th- th- then, you know, that's what I do for

Emma: That thing

Russell Harvey: There, you know?

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: realization moment of it, it can be different, I can actually find ways to navigate all of these things that are in front of me.

Emma: You you've mentioned it a couple of times and and just hearing and seeing you talk about it it's obviously still very real for you Like you can obviously still see those faces in your mind and and feel that feeling that you felt then and obviously now continue to to feel with the people that you work with A and I'm I'm ki I'm going off track slightly but just really what an amazing thing to be able to identify because that is such a specific thing and you you actually identified it pretty early on i in a slightly different context And as you say it took you a little bit of time to to get the words around oh that might look like training and development learning and development [00:22:00] coaching et cetera But what a profound thing to to be able to kind of reflect haha back on and go it was it was that Like that's what I want to spend my time doing It's really interesting I love that

Russell Harvey: No, I really appreciate that as well 'cause I, I, I do talk about it a lot, and it is incredibly meaningful to me, and it's probably a part of the way my mind works. and, you know, I can quite often be inside my own head and naval gazing and, like, you know, need to have a word with myself to d- like, come, come out of it, Russell, and get into the real world.

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: A- and it, in terms of role modeling, not my ego, but one of the dimensions of being, resilient is having a purpose. So until

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: 2025, my purpose was to positively affect 100,000 people, which is 100,000 light bulb moments, essentially. and it took me about six odd years, six, seven years to do it. [00:23:00] But in August 2025, yeah, hit the 100,000.

So

Emma: Congratulations

Russell Harvey: Thank you. Thank you. the, the new purpose now to champion businesses to be a force for good. And what that means in more detail is engaging with anybody that's got a leadership and line management role, from chairperson to CEO and everybody in between, to, to get them into the place so that when they are asked, "How are you?" can go, "There's a lot going on, and I'm

Emma: Yeah but I'm good Yeah

Russell Harvey: as a result of that, they support their teams. And another reason for doing it you know, Gallup research has been out there for a long time that, 70% of a, ability for a team to be engaged also role modeling resilience and also performing is, is down to their line manager

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: I'm like, so I'm like, [00:24:00] "Well, there's an opportunity.

Let's make, you know, enable you to be a resilient leader and you can, you know, be something good in that 70% space, and then the whole team is resilient and more engaged," and it all goes to the numbers in the business essentially

Emma: Yeah It it's it's it it's one of those things isn't it that I think and and please correct me if I'm wrong cause you're obviously closer to it from a business perspective and and the data than I than I am But I think a good proportion of people like logically intellectually know that They know that if the people in the business are engaged and that they've got the skills and that they've got the tools then they are going to do better work and and that is going to flow on to the bottom line I realise I'm saying this in a very you know at a very high level

Russell Harvey: No, no.

Emma: But so often there is a disconnect between that ideal and then what happens And sometimes it you know [00:25:00] it it might be as simple as as money and you know business doesn't have the money to invest in that But again there's a there's a cycle question there that if you're not investing then you know round and round we go Um and and kind of hearing you say business is a power for good I really like that framing because again I think somewhere along the way we've we've perhaps lost the idea that not only is that possible but that is something that we can absolutely do and should be doing

Russell Harvey: Yeah. And, it's not about sort of like this, you know, really sort of ethereal, world. So what, the, one of the reasons that I come at it, is absolutely about I'm good at going, "Look, so the suite of behaviors that are happening in your organisation and your team right now, they are giving you the results that you're getting."

Emma: Mmhmm Yeah

Russell Harvey: It, it, and so quite often, you know, [00:26:00] with kindness I walk into leadership teams and go, "You talk all of the time about the data, the numbers, KPIs, things you're worried about, that things aren't working." It's like, "So with kindness from me, you need to understand that every result you're getting down right now is down to the behaviors in this room."

Emma: Yeah And I'd imagine you'd get a lot of shocked faces

Russell Harvey: and

Emma: Sharp intake of breath

Russell Harvey: yeah, some people go, "Yeah, we know that," which is great. Some people go, "Yeah, we know, and, and that's why you're here, and we haven't, we don't quite know what to do about it. That's why you're here." And I go, "Great." You know? Others are going, "Well, really?" You know. But it's not

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: all the blame on those shoulders or adding to their overwhelm. And, and so yes, I, you know, I live in the real world in the fact that the, the significant driver of all businesses is, about, you know, to the shareholders. You know? We, we do everything to make sure that we can

Emma: Yep

Russell Harvey: dividends.

And resilient organ- so resilient humans, resilient [00:27:00] organizations means that you give yourself a much greater guarantee that the shareholders are gonna get their money. So

it all equates. So I, 

I've always struggled with, so it's from decades ago, you know, people sort of saying, "Yeah, we do this learning and development stuff, but we've got no idea if like we'll get any money back from it." So I have a number of different leadership development programs that I've done, and I did one recently in a bakery over here. a program, couple of cohorts, and 1100% return on investment

Emma: That's awesome Yeah

Russell Harvey: And it's

Emma: That's what you want

Russell Harvey: it wasn't m- me just saying it, the proof came at the end with how a

Emma: Literally in the pudding Russell It was in the pudding at the bakery

Russell Harvey: literally, there is it. That is it. Yes, indeed. Yeah. So it, it was ... I had all of the sort of senior people in the room, and people were presenting about these projects that they were doing that they wouldn't have done if that'd been on the program.

And the room, these senior leaders in the room, the [00:28:00] operations directors were going, "Well, that, that, that idea is 20 quid in, 20,000 pounds in that bakery, so if we just replicated it across the next 10, we've

Emma: Yep

Russell Harvey: 200 grand." And,

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: go, "And are you happy with, that you believe that?" Go, "Yeah.

Let's, do it tomorrow then."

Emma: I think again it's that disconnect point isn't it That that um you know uh I know it's not exactly what you're talking about but it's a very similar point I think around culture and you know we talk about it in this very grandiose as you said ethereal way and Oh culture's this and it's something on a wall And culture is the behavior of the people that work in the organization You can say whatever you want about it but what the people are doing in the organization on the daytoday basis is the proof of the pudding It is That is the outcome that you will get and yeah there does often seem to be this this kind of disconnect between what people say it is and then what it [00:29:00] is And maybe that's you know cause it's not always easy You know it it's not always easy to to look at ourselves in in that way and go I am not my best self in this situation I'm I'm you know doing X Y and Z and it is not helping me or my team get to the goals In fact I'm making it worse and you know there's a knockon effect to And that's not an easy thing to do but I think yeah this this idea that somehow behavior is divorced from outcome I don't really know how that how that became part of of what we think is is gonna happen

Russell Harvey: well, well, so, pers- self-awareness, personal development, you know, it, it, it can be tough. It can be scary, it can be frightening. So then it's about back to this, like, you know, painting the rainbow or, you know, imagine the,

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: difference

Emma: future self yeah

Russell Harvey: yeah, future self that, how you're thinking and [00:30:00] feeling.

It's like, you know, if

Emma: Mmhmm

Russell Harvey: different, better, or i-t then people go, "Okay, I'm prepared to do some work now." So this is why I really, I'm hoping or my intent is to find ways that... So everybody I support, I encourage them to engage with their resilience wheel, nurture it, grow it, develop it, to build their resilience for the rest of their lives.

You know, it's just, it's a tool built on loads of research that you can utilize. and I go, "And, you know, I..." It's like my intention is that each time you are reflecting or know that you're gonna reflect on your resilience wheel, and it's gonna become part of your life do so, that that for you is interesting and enjoyable It, you know, it's like, yes, there may

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: when you go, this is hard work."

you know, most of the time you're like, "Yeah, okay. The, I'm, I'm actually... This is, you know, energizing or engaging or interesting," you know? that's the intention 

Emma: You mentioned the wheel [00:31:00] and you mentioned purpose and I think you said there are there are seven

behaviors on on that wheel What what are the other what are the other six

Russell Harvey: Yeah, so this is, so, built on research from Robertson Cooper who did, you know, loads of research about what it means to be resilient and put it into the world for free. so mentioning them, and I've taken it and added a couple of bits to it. So heart of our resilience is attitude, so our settled way in thinking, feeling about life. and our value systems essentially, and, you know, how we've got to this moment in time for our experiences around nature and nurture. That's at the heart of resilience. And I would revise, don't start there 'cause it's too deep. 

Essentially, don't immediately go, "Right, I'm gonna go

cause of me as

Emma: Go right into the quagmire

Russell Harvey: No, don't start there. start around the edges of the, the spokes, of, of the wheel. so purpose, so literally your reason for being. confidence, so your... what is it that enables you to believe at any [00:32:00] particular moment in time whether you can or can't do something. The lovely word of adaptability, which is openness to change, but not necessarily doing it.

So the eagle-eared of you, if that's a phraseology, is, in the VUCA Prime, I talked about agility. So it's

Emma: understanding 

Russell Harvey: there is a difference between adaptability and agility. Adaptability is open to change, but not necessarily doing anything. Agility is the doing space, or how quickly you get into the doing of the change of behaviour So openness to change. And some other research, from Dr Jenny Campbell in Edinburgh, know her, but it's hers, is that those people that spend a third of their time engaging with their adaptability, they give themselves a good chance of getting to thrive. Then there is our support network. So nurturing the best, most useful support network for you, not just having people on it that blow smoke up your backside [00:33:00] okay?

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: a mixture of people's support network. Then there's meaning, which is our internal It's the meaning that we attach to life's events essentially. So it's about how we are telling our life stories about, you know, our experiences, what happened, and noticing how useful that they are to tell us the, the, the stories we're telling ourselves. And finally, where, is a real, real biggy, this one, is this word energy, and all of that is with a psychometric called Strengthsscope essentially. So there are 24 strengths. You take a psychometric, and you identify your significant seven out of these 24, and it's about what naturally energizes you, harnessing your strengths and understanding those things that you have less energy for, and what you do when you need to do those things essentially. So when you play to your [00:34:00] strengths, it builds natural resilience and natural confidence. So there's, on the website, I've just put on some simple versions of a diagnostic for resilient leadership, resilient teams, and resilient organizations, and behind the scenes of that, it, the, it's the resilience wheel the questions.

There's

Emma: Right

Russell Harvey: to answer, and you just get a simple, you know, playback page to go, "Yeah, you're surviving, coping, or thriving," you 

Emma: Hmm

Russell Harvey: Uh, as a, as an initial blueprint, and then I've got more detailed ones when I work with clients 

Emma: Right I'll pop that in the notes so whether you're watching listening the the link to that will will be in the notes on the whatever device you're you're on really interesting and and so many kind of different aspects of of that When you mention energy at the end how how do you think about energy in that context from the sense of it's giving me energy or it's draining me Is [00:35:00] is that the the framing or

Russell Harvey: Yeah, it, it is. So think about, So an extra little bit of thinking. So two of the 24 are compassion and empathy. Okay? and it's, you know, it's a question I ask a lot about, what's the difference between the two? And the room gives an answer, and I go, "Right then." So, so everybody that's listening now, think about yourselves. if somebody, one of their significant seven is compassion, that means that when they see another human being, they have natural energy inside themselves when they see another hu- hu- human being to go, "Do you know what? I care about your wellbeing." It, it, that's inside me. That energizer. I care about your wellbeing. And it drives the behaviors of, "Do you know what? I wanna look after you. I wanna do things for you. I wanna make sure that you're well." Compassion, you know? And, another one is empathy. And so when people have the energizer of empathy, that means when they see another human being, they've got energy inside themselves to go, "Do you know what?

I'm really curious about what makes you tick, and I [00:36:00] just want to ask you questions about, so what's going on for you? How come you think and feel about that? You know, when you, when you were doing that, how come you came to that decision?" So they want to try and see it from their perspective, essentially. So I talk about that a lot, because I do a lot of, coaching skills programs. So what this... That influences your coaching style, essentially. so the, and it sort of goes into where actually, where, do you naturally try and tell and advise, which isn't coaching, or do you n- actually try and ask questions? So the compassion, if you've got that energizer, that you have to work hard at reducing that. So people listening now, some people listening now will be going, "Do you know what? I think I'm energized by both, Russell." Some will go, "Neither," which is fine, 'cause there's another 22. Yeah. And others, and others will go, "Oh, it was that one," and it wasn't that one, essentially. So 

Emma: Hmm 

Russell Harvey: And so some peop- One of them is decision-making. Another one is common sense. Another one is enthusiasm. So,

Emma: Nice

Russell Harvey: you play to your [00:37:00] strengths, natural resilience and natural confidence

Emma: That playing to your strengths we we went through a period of time I don't think we're necessarily still there but we definitely were in it where it became all about trying to overcome your weaknesses and and you know Oh I'm not very good at And I must you know I I've got to be this perfectly wellrounded I I must fill in this gap I must overcome my weakness Which to a certain extent but if if that's all you're doing A that's a pretty miserable way to to live your working life and also you're probably not bringing to bear all of the incredible skills that you have that might be able to to move the organisation forward And it does feel like we've we've kind of come the other side of that to Okay what am I actually really good at and am I leaning into those things and am I bringing those things to the to the fore

Russell Harvey: You wouldn't believe the, the number of clients that I've had. So, [00:38:00] so, you know, they'll get their Strengthsscope and they'll look at their report, which ironically is another wheel by sheer coincidence. and their eyes will go to their low scores. And they go,

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: my homework, Russell, is to work on these?"

And I go, "No. Why would I ask

Emma: No

Russell Harvey: you don't enjoy it. Your

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: these things here that you love doing, is those." And they go, "So my, my homework is to do more of the things that I love doing?" And I go, "Yes." They go, "My mind is blown." And then there is a layer of sophistication think about their job role.

So it's about how are your, the natural factors that your job is asking you to do, where is it complementing or not your strengths, you know,

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: report essentially. And then it's about a number of strategies that you put in place when you have to do those things that you've got less energy for. So I do, you know, have to work hard at keeping to s- steer away from this, like, weaknesses. Just goes like, let's just revisit this word energy, you 

Emma: Mm 

Russell Harvey: it, and it

Emma: It's a good way of [00:39:00] framing it Yeah I know I said weakness that was on me But yeah it's a much better way of No but it's a much better way of framing it to to think about the tasks that give you energy versus the ones that that kinda take it take it from you

Russell Harvey: Yeah,

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: not the fact that you can't do it, it's just to go, "Ah, actually..."

Emma: the extra energy Mm

Russell Harvey: Yeah, yeah, absolutely

Emma: Yeah A and I think you know it it goes to that framing that you said about your your job role and no role's 100 Like there's always gonna be things that you have to do that either you don't like or that drain energy from I mean that unfortunately that's just life But hopefully you get to 8020 you know

Russell Harvey: Yeah

Emma: a and if you're in a role that's 5050 or if it's the other way round if it's 2080 then you know maybe you wanna think about that and and you wanna think differently about the the type of role that you're doing or or the type of tasks that are are [00:40:00] forming the the major the major part of that

Russell Harvey: No, that's exactly been the case. There was a large scale program I did with, some associate work, where, you know, it was about 1,500 people and all had Strengthsscopes, and there were a few times when somebody, you know, it was, facilitated put Someone said, "Everything in my job role is in my de-energizers." And then, so I just sort of said, "Okay, so what do you wanna do about that?" And he literally went, "I need, I need to leave, don't I?"

Emma: Yeah Yeah Well you're just swimming against the tide constantly aren't you You're constantly swimming against the tide That person must be exhausted

Russell Harvey: Yeah. And they, and then, you know, when they, when they said it, there was a bit of a smile on their face to go back to light bulbs, you know, being

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: literally went, "I don't, I don't need to do this, do I?" And he went, "No, you don't."

Emma: Yeah No And and there's probably an element of like it actually finally makes sense You know I I talk to my friends and colleagues and [00:41:00] and they all seem quite happy and they like the leader and they like the environment and I can't kind of understand why I don't You know why I get to the end of the workday and I feel like someone's you know sucked the sucked the life out of me with a vacuum cleaner And and that moment of like as you used to like aha Oh Like it's not actually I was gonna say it's not me I mean it it is in the sense that it's the things that take energy from you but it's not something that you're kind of actively doing It's just it's just the way you're built Like that's just kinda how it how it is we've covered a lot Russell and a as I said I will pop in the the show notes the link to the website so people can find those tools I'm assuming that doing some of those profiles is is probably the best place for people to start if they're interested in in what you've said Yeah

Russell Harvey: Absolutely. And don't worry, it's not like, you know, I, I'll know that you've done the, the report, but it's not an email capture bombardment thing. [00:42:00] It's not a, it's not that. It's just literally I'm aware that you've done it, and it'll just go, "Hello, you've done it. That was your

Emma: Yeah Great Yeah

Russell Harvey: That it's

Emma: Nice

Russell Harvey: essentially. Yes. and they can book a call if they want to essentially

Emma: Great final question It's always the final question here and that is what do you know now that you wish you knew then

Russell Harvey: So I j- was really thinking about this. I knew the question was coming. I was having a think about. So, neuro myths, Emma. I wish I knew about neuro myths earlier in my career.

Emma: Tell me about those

Russell Harvey: So this ... a bit of ... So if you look, those that are watching, so over my right

Emma: Yes Yeah

Russell Harvey: there's a, you

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: that phrenology, thing.

You know, which is the fact that And so I've done this. I've been in this space, and so this is why I wish I knew,now, ... Sorry, then what I know now. So the learning development world can be good at putting some stuff out into the universe which isn't necessarily [00:43:00] true. and so I fall into this trap.

So the fact that, learning styles, you know, the visual, auditory, and kinesthetic are put out there about, as the black and white of this is how people learn. evidence to support it. So, you know, pe- the dif- there are different ways in which people learn. The 70-20-10 approach essentially. So learning styles is a neuro myth. and so another one that, been taken into the and I think is being used not as it was originally intended imposter syndrome. So a syndrome is a

Emma: Oh 100

Russell Harvey: Phew. Okay. All

Emma: Yeah I'm with you on that one

Russell Harvey: So I'm nervous at times still

Emma: It is not a syndrome as a as a starting point

Russell Harvey: Yeah.

Emma: There is nothing wrong with you

Russell Harvey: Thank you. Yes. So for me, is simply a conversation in the confidence space, and one of the dimensions of resilience is the confidence piece. [00:44:00] And one of the 24 strengths is self-confidence.

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: are naturally, just naturally energized by, this is me, and these are my skills, and I can do stuff."

And they're energized by it. So when they're asked to do things, they've got natural energy. So some people, that's quite low energy for them. However, in, in this space, I am never at any chance labeling anybody anywhere that you don't have confidence. I don't believe in that principle. It's like, just let's explore.

You absolutely have got belief at times that you can do something. So it's just what is enabling. So yeah, so neuro myths. So left

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: brain,

Emma: a good one

Russell Harvey: That, you know, I wish, I can't get it right in my head. I wish I knew back then some things I know

Emma: But you knew that now yeah

Russell Harvey: Yeah. And so, and I may still be doing it somewhere.

So I do work hard at sort of going, "Right, I'm saying things. have I fallen into the trap [00:45:00] of, like, neuro myths and things like that?" Happy to be challenged on things. so yeah, there,

Emma: I didn't know that

Russell Harvey: to do in that space.

Emma: Yeah I haven't come across that word I I hands up I'm guilty of the left brain right brain thing I say that

Russell Harvey: Yeah

Emma: say it all the time Um and and to my earlier point about VUCA being a shorthand it it's perhaps just a and I'm not putting VUCA in the same bracket uh as as that but it's perhaps just a lazy way of saying there are two quite different approaches to how I think and actually blending those two things together is something that when I talk about my own career journey I often talk about the I found it quite difficult to put together those two things because I was very good at one and more interested in the other And I couldn't quite work out how to kind of blend those things and and put them together But I I do use the terminology hands up guilty of left brain right brain so I'm going to stop doing that now That is my [00:46:00] pledge to you Russell I'm gonna use different language around that I do not want to be talking about neuro myths

Russell Harvey: And so it's really interesting. Anybody at any time can put into a search engine, you know, current or top 20 or top 10 neuromyths or top 20,

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: a

Emma: I'm gonna do that Yeah

Russell Harvey: And, just have a little look at it and go, "Oh, okay. All right. Okay, well..."

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: there you go

Emma: Yeah And the imposter syndrome is such a big one Like again like talk about something that's just become part of the lexicon and and people I'm sure are using as a way to stop themselves from taking opportunity quite often and and feeling a little bit justified about doing that and the other thing that I framing that I heard on that a little while ago and I'm interested in your thoughts on this that as you said A it's not a syndrome but even that little feeling of it is actually just a um uh it's just registering that you're probably about to do [00:47:00] something that you haven't done before

Russell Harvey: Yeah.

Emma: that's it and if you haven't done something before you you kind of go Oh okay And as you said I'm not Maybe it's not immediately obvious whether you're gonna be able to do that thing or not that in itself is is not necessarily a bad thing It's certainly not a syndrome

Russell Harvey: No. And then the additional bit, as you know, is, okay, I've not necessarily done this before, but what is my belief right now about whether I can or I can't?

Emma: Yeah

Russell Harvey: Uh, 

Emma: Yeah 

Russell Harvey: and yeah, it

Emma: Yeah So interesting So interesting I could I could talk to you about this all day and particularly on the on the neuro myth things but I won't cause I'm so conscious of time But yeah I'm definitely gonna go away and Google those I'm sure there's some other ones that just just creep in and uh I'm I'm probably using as well without without realising

Russell Harvey: I, I must credit, I'm not sure if your listeners know, but I've got a colleague who's in a simi- similar space to me. His specialism around is around mental toughness. So there's obviously [00:48:00] crossover in what we do. But he, he's the one that, he's the one that's always poking me about neuro myths. which I really appreciate. It, it's him actually, that I need, that, you know, hi- it to my attention, which I appreciate, you know?

Emma: Yes, indeed.

Russell Harvey: he's the

Emma: Indeed

Russell Harvey: him, for coffees, he's all the one, always the one that's just asking those challenging questions. And would come away and go, "Right, just need to go and rethink.

I'll just go and

Emma: Yes.

Russell Harvey: something." Yes. So Steve Brookshaw, thank you

Emma: Thank you. Thank you very much, Russell. I really appreciate you, taking the time and, I know it's, an early morning for, for you, so thank you for that. Thank you for, for sharing your experience and insights and, and what you've learned.

I've, I've really, really, really enjoyed it. Much appreciated

Russell Harvey: You're very welcome. Thank you

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