From Barbie to AI: Andrea Roberts on Building a Marketing Career That Evolves

What do Barbie, The Body Shop, pharmaceuticals, fintech and AI have in common?

For Andrea Roberts, they've all been part of her fascinating marketing career.

In this episode of Your Career Journey, I sit down with Andrea Roberts to explore how a career built on curiosity, adaptability and saying "yes" to opportunities can take you into industries you never imagined.

Andrea shares how what she calls a series of "happy coincidences" led her from intellectual property licensing, working with iconic brands like Barbie, Sesame Street, Star Wars and Bananas in Pyjamas, into marketing roles across retail, FMCG, beauty, pharmaceuticals, financial services and AI.

Along the way, we talk about why transferable skills matter more than industry experience, how building strong relationships with finance transformed her career, and why curiosity may be one of the most valuable skills marketers can develop as AI continues to reshape our profession.

If you're a marketer wondering how to stay relevant, navigate career changes or embrace AI without feeling overwhelmed, you'll take away plenty of practical insights from this conversation.

In this episode we discuss:

✅ Andrea's unconventional path into marketing
✅ What working with iconic global brands taught her
✅ The power of transferable skills across different industries
✅ Why marketers need stronger relationships with finance
✅ Building confidence through continuous learning
✅ How AI is changing marketing and how to approach it with curiosity rather than fear
✅ Why experimentation, ethics and discipline all matter when using AI
✅ Andrea's advice for building a career that continues to evolve

Timestamps:
00:00 Welcome Andrea
00:27 Licensing Career Start
02:26 Toys And Mattel Lessons
03:49 Retail At The Body Shop
06:45 Cosmetics And Licensing Return
09:32 Retail Roles And Pharma Shift
11:06 Fintech And Teaching Detour
12:44 AI Consulting And Netwealth
15:32 Making Career Pivots Work
19:05 Marketing And Finance Partnership
22:17 Curiosity And Relationship Building
31:07 AI Mindset And Discipline
38:45 Ethics, Trust And Transparency
41:07 Final Advice: Curiosity Wins

To connect with Andrea:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrea-roberts-/

Can you also find episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EmmaGrahamCareerCoach/videos

Your host, Emma Graham, Career Coach and ex-recruiter, is here to help you with:

 💡 Gain clarity on what’s important to you
 💡 Confidently communicate your value
 💡 Build a personal brand and a strong network
 💡 Take a strategic approach to your next move
 💡 Navigate the job market effectively
 💡 Build career confidence with a repeatable success blueprint

🌐 Explore my coaching programs and free resources:
 Website: https://www.egconsulting.au/
 LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/emmajgraham
 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmagrahamcareercoach/

🎁 Free Resources:
 📄 CV Development Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/cv-advice
 📄 LinkedIn Profile Optimisation Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/linkedin-profile-guide

📅 Book Your FREE Career Strategy Discovery Call:
 https://calendly.com/emmagrahamconsulting/discovery-call

Transcript

Emma: I am joined today by Andrea. Welcome

Andrea Roberts: Hi, Emma. Thanks for having me on your podcast

Emma: Very, very welcome. So we are gonna go back in time, if that's okay with you, as [00:01:00] a, as a starting point and, and find out a bit more about your career journey and, and how you kinda got to, got to where you are now. So take me back. Was it, was it always the sort of the, the marketing path that you knew you wanted to go down?

Andrea Roberts: not really, actually. And my career, when I look back, looks like it's been quite deliberate, but in fact, it's been a series of happy, happy coincidences. So I started, my career in intellectual property licensing. So I worked for, one of the first intellectual property license independent licensing agents in Australia, Gaffney Licensing. And I started on reception actually in that business, and then after a couple of weeks was promoted to s- to manage a few properties, for the business. And I was responsible for A, a, a bra-- a range of, or a portfolio of brands that, I was licensing out. So we [00:02:00] represented the owners of licenses such as Bananas in Pyjamas, at the time Barbie, Sesame Street, Star Wars, and then we were licensing those brands to a range of different product categories.

That might be fast food, toys, books, apparel. And that was-- I consider that almost like an apprenticeship for my career, 'cause as it turns out, even today, many, many years later, I back to a lot of the skills that I gained in that role. I... The core of that, that role really was around stakeholder engagement, so it was about negotiating and, operating between the owner of the license and the manufacturers.

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: and it was a really interesting business. It was a tough environment. We worked really hard, but luckily I was young and energetic at the time and, enjoyed the challenge. but I had exposure to such a broad range of different businesses, [00:03:00] from wholesale through to retail, fast food, promotional agencies, movie production houses.

It was really a, a fantastic introduction to the world of marketing communications and promotions. And from there I segued into toys. So one of the main, licensees for our business was toys. At the time, there was Mattel who would license, some of our brands, and then we had Tyco Toys as well as w-- a, a, and another kinda host of other toy brands. And I moved to Tyco Toys to manage the range of Sesame Street, toys for Tyco, Street having been a license that I also managed in, at Gaffney. So the toy environment, I then moved into Mattel 'cause Mattel bought Tyco, I had my first experience of fast-moving consumer goods. Mattel was a business where I really learnt the fundamentals.

I guess if you think about the four Ps, where I learnt about the basic, [00:04:00] core principles of marketing, and I also commenced my master's in marketing whilst I was working in that environment. I had the privilege of working with an amazing, CFO whilst I was at Mattel, who taught me Pretty much everything I know today about, financial management, forecasting, price structures, margins, quotas, and it-- all of the financial components of the marketing function, and he showed me what it looked like to have a super close relationship with the finance team, and that has really held me in pretty good stead my whole career. Mattel, I moved into retail. I moved to a role at The Body Shop, which at the time was a wholly owned franchise in Australia. A wholly owned business with a franchise component to it, and I moved to The Body Shop as marketing manager. This was a really interesting move because they are, or were at the time, a vertically integrated business.

So they did some wholesale, [00:05:00] production onshore, then they also imported some products, and they, distributed to their own stores as well as to the franchise stores. And they did no above-the-line advertising, so all of the marketing was really done in the retail environment and the store... within the stores.

So it was a really incredible opportunity to learn in a values-driven business, which Anita Roddick was, was leading

Emma: Yeah. 

Yeah 

Andrea Roberts: to learn about vertically integrated businesses, but also learn about retail and the importance of understanding your stock movements and your foot traffic and your basket size, and how marketing can influence that. It was a really incredible business to work in. I had the privilege of meeting Anita Rod-Roddick, who was powerhouse and an inspiration, and I feel very lucky actually to have, well, met her, but also worked in that business, which was completely unique at the [00:06:00] time, and even today, still one of the real pioneers in a

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: Absolutely.

organization.

Emma: I was a big fan of them. As you were saying it, I was like, I was a huge Body Shop customer and, and sh- as you say, she was just amazing. Really changed the, the way business was done, and I think probably one of the first people to become the face of their business in that way.

Andrea Roberts: Mm-hmm

Emma: now, you know, seems very, a, a very normal thing to do, but actually wasn't really at the, at the time when she was doing it

Andrea Roberts: Yeah, I know. I- and even the, the, the ethical components of the product, manufacturing process, recycling, bringing your old bottles in and switching

Emma: Yeah 

Andrea Roberts: was in-incredible. And the key thing that I learnt in that environment, apart from how to run a successful values-driven business, was just the power of customer service, actually, because they did was within the store environment to convert their [00:07:00] customers.

So apart from their windows, which was their core promotional, activity, their actual conversion process was done through customer service, as well as the presentation of the stock in-store, allowing people to play with the products. So it was a really interesting example of how when you, when you provide, an amazing customer experience in store, how powerful that can be in terms of driving sales and,

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: So

Emma: Yeah 

Andrea Roberts: was, a really awesome experience. And then after I worked at the Body Shop, I moved into cosmetics, and started to work for a wholesale business. and I worked... I was at that point, a m- group marketing manager, so I had a team under me of product managers, brand managers, communications people, and I was now fully on the wholesale side with some manufacturing, as part of the business, as well as shipping in products from other markets and then distributing to retailers. [00:08:00] In that business, interestingly, I had a component of it that was licensing again. So we h- we had a license that we were, we used on our cosmetics. At the time, it was Australis was the brand, and we used Ken Done's, amazing artwork as, our branding. So it was interesting that then licensing came back, and as

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: has been around for quite a bit of my career as it, as it happens.

So I was there in the, the wholesale environment dealing with retailers and manufacturing, and that was a really interesting experience, particularly to have wholesale again. And L'Tan was the other license that we had, to be, to be back in that environment. after a few years there, I started to get itchy feet in the sense that I, really wanted to learn and accelerate my learning. And whilst I found the environment, the professional environment interesting, there's always been a little bit of curiosity about, the academic world. So I flirted with the idea of going back to [00:09:00] uni and doing my PhD And, I got a scholarship to do a PhD, and then at the final moment pulled the pin because I suddenly thought, "Actually, that could be quite a lonely three years sitting in my study writing

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: But it was a, was an interesting, topic, and it's always stayed with me, the idea of continuing to learn. So, at this point I'd had-- I'd, got my Master's of Marketing and was using it, in my career every day, all day. It was a, it was a completely rewarding experience to be working in the field and learning in the field at

Emma: Yes. Yeah

Andrea Roberts: very stimulating and challenging and, and rewarding. And I ended up doing it really well at uni as a result, and won a couple of awards because I was totally immersed in the theory and the practice at the

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: So, I remember when I undertook the, or started the degree and I thought, "I don't know how I'm gonna fit this in with full-time work and all the other life commitments."

Emma: [00:10:00] Yeah

Andrea Roberts: actually for me, and if anyone else is considering it, it ended up being a beautiful kind of synergistic experience where I could learn and do, for me, that worked, exceptionally well. So, I would encourage people not to hes-hesitate if that's where your interest and passion lies.

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: So, so then after I, was at, the Body Shop, I, sorry, at, it was Creative Brands, I m- I went further into retail.

So I've had more experience in retail. I worked in fashion retail. I worked for Borders Asia Pacific, the big box book retailer when they were in Australia, the, the Colorado Group. and then, I've h- During that time, I just learnt about all of the different ways that marketing can apply, and licensing was present in my role at Colorado, as well.

so it stayed with me there. and it's been really, incredible to be able [00:11:00] to, apply the lessons of all my previous roles in, you know, as, as I go. and then I moved, into f- back to fast-moving consumer goods for a little while. I, worked at Hallmark for a bit. and then I moved into, skincare, and I worked in skincare, which was then a segue into pharmaceutical skin, dermatology business.

Then I spent a long time in, pharmaceuticals and learnt an incredible amount about regulated marketing within a regulated business, as well as within a business that was sales machine. they really taught me what excellence sa- or sales excellence looks like, and also the power of fully integrating your marketing and sales function, which w- and disciplined kind of structured marketing as well, and I had amazing learning opportunities whilst I was there. And then from pharmaceuticals, I moved into financial services. So, enough, it sounds like a real pivot, but [00:12:00] it's not because the structure of the

Emma: The regulated environment again. Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: And,

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: and the B2B2C component of it the same. So, I was interested in a challenge in the sense that I was keen to find out, learn in a new environment, but I could apply all of my, learnings from a B2B2C environment in, financial services. So then I did another long stint in financial services, and now I find myself, still in financial services, but in a completely different part of, financial services, yet still the same model, B2B2B. And I'm actually in fintech, so, there's a component, a SaaS component with- in this current role as well as in my previous role. Along the way, I, had two kids, and when I took time out from my pr- professional career and had my daughters, I still had this kind of craving for an academic component to my, to my And so started [00:13:00] lecturing, when they were babies. And so I would, would go to uni in the evenings, and I taught undergrad marketing and then also postgrad marketing at Monash and RMIT, in the MBA program and the undergrad program, and I really loved it.

And it was way of keeping my skills up to date and

Emma: Yeah 

Andrea Roberts: also incredibly rewarding, sharing my knowledge and expertise with people who are really keen to learn and understand about marketing. So that gets me to today. in between, I've also done some consulting and ran my own business. So most recently, between my current, full-time role and my previous full-time role, I, set up a, an AI marketing consulting business called Aivana, and that was a really, incredible experience running my own business and being completely immersed in AI. My business's remit was to help small to medium [00:14:00] sized businesses, Adopt AI for efficiencies really, and the theory is that all small businesses know they should do marketing, but they don't have the time or s- or expertise sometimes. And so I went in and showed them how if they leveraged the right AI tools in the right way, they could get some scale in their marketing practices, without really needing an enormous amount of skill or resource.

So that was very rewarding, and I was lucky enough to... Well, my, one of my biggest and, clients was the Australian Centre for AI in Marketing, and I worked for them helping produce their AI for marketers course, online course. So I helped curate the content and deliver some of that content for them, and that was really incredible because day in, day out, I was immersing myself in the latest tools.

I was playing, I was experimenting and learning myself, and then turning that into

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: [00:15:00] awesome content for marketers who were keen to learn. And I ha- I was lucky enough to also interview some really incredible industry leaders about their AI journey and experience so that, to help our p- course participants learn from some of those leaders as well. And then I find myself here working in fintech, a business called Netwealth, and I really enjoy it. it's interesting, it's a very, successful business and it's growing at the rate of knots, and there's so much opportunity, and I really actually am excited to come to work every day. It's, it's quite a

Emma: That's a nice... Yeah, it's, it's funny, isn't it? We, we can overcomplicate these things sometimes, but isn't that actually what it comes down to? I enjoy going to work. I enjoy going to work. I like the people I work with. I feel challenged. I'm learning. I'm growing. I, I think it's easier to say, I think it's easy to overcomplicate it sometimes and lose track of the things that actually, do I like

Andrea Roberts: Yeah,

Emma: it?

Is it a nice place to be?

Andrea Roberts: [00:16:00] Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm super lucky 'cause it's, it's all those things and more, you know? So it's a really fabulous working environment and, very clever people doing amazing things in a business that is just so fast. It's very dynamic

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: and exciting

Emma: Yeah. I, I do want to ask you about the AI, but I'm going to come back to that 'cause I just wanted to pick up on a, a few things, across the, a- across the kind of journey to date. I always think it's so interesting, and it's, it, it's one of the main reasons that I, I kind of start with that question because it's always so interesting to me how in hindsight things can join up, which maybe at the time you weren't aware of or, or you're not necessarily thinking about the links.

But so often, as is the case in these conversations, they're, they're there. You know, like you said, the licensing component that came through, you know, time and time again. And the other thing that [00:17:00] kind of struck me is, you were talking about all the, retail experience that you'd had, and I was thinking, oh, I, I know you're working in financial services now, and I was thinking, how, how did that happen?

Like, how did you go from, from one to the other? But as you said, it was the, actually that pharmaceutical environment and that highly regulated nature of that environment. And it's a question that comes up a lot, with people who want to change industries and, and they're not quite sure how to do it.

And, and sometimes they kind of feel a box- a bit boxed in, and the market doesn't appear that, open sometimes to, to people changing industries. But I think the bit that sometimes gets missed is exactly what you highlighted there, is that you've got to find out what the similarities are, and then you've got to make those similarities explicit.

Someone just going, "Oh, you know, here's Andrea, and here's a super impressive career in retail and pharmaceuticals. I, I don't see how that applies to [00:18:00] financial services. Next," as opposed to someone who's really calling that out and saying, "No, actually, it's highly regulated environment, very structured, sales process, you know, and that's what I bring from that to this."

And it's, it's that step that I think sometimes,

Andrea Roberts: Yeah.

Emma: gets missed

Andrea Roberts: Yeah, I think that's so true, and I think the easier you can make it for your prospective

employer 

Emma: Yeah, absolutely

Andrea Roberts: to see the transferrable skills, the more likely it is that you'll be able to make that shift. And for me, I mean, I'm not gonna lie, I had the support of an excellent recruiter who identified that opportunity as well, and together we worked on, how to position, how to position myself for that environment because I do remember when she suggested it to me, I said, "Oh, I don't think they're gonna want me."

Funnily enough, I was quite, I knew that I wanted to move to financial services because I knew it was also a regulated business, and

just didn't wanna stay in pharmaceuticals. I'd been in there for seven years. I [00:19:00] wanted to try something different.

Emma: Yeah, try something different

Andrea Roberts: been another pharma role, but, and I'd, I'd earmarked, financial services from a regulated perspective.

but yeah, I think drawing, drawing those parallels or similarities for the

Emma: Yes

Andrea Roberts: definitely makes, makes it work. And it's funny because there was GSK, pharmaceuticals, then I went into, another fi- fintech business, and now I'm in a different part of financial services at a different fintech business and, and the models of the businesses are the same, but they're very different organizations operating in different markets.

So, what looks like kinda almost changing in industries or markets, hasn't really been that massive sh- shift from a marketing perspective that it, that it appears to be on face value.

Emma: The, the other thing that really stood out and, I'd imagine is, is something that you've, kind of leaned on, and still do today was that close relationship [00:20:00] with the, with the CFO. 'Cause as you were saying it, I was thinking, gosh, how many marketers can say that, that they've worked with a, a really great CFO and, and had that level of,that level of, mentorship?

It sounded like a little bit of, of him actually kind of taking you through and, and really explaining those commercial aspects, which I think is often, some of the challenge for marketers when there is that disconnect sometimes between marketing and, and the more commercial language or the more c- commercial aspects of the business.

And having that, grounding, from someone who speaks that language, and, and can help, help to, to kind of up-skill you in that area, I'd imagine that was really foundational, for, for everything that kinda came next

Andrea Roberts: It actually has been, and, at the time I didn't realise how lucky I was. It was only once I moved on from that role that I realised how unusual it is for marketing and, finance to be kind of [00:21:00] comfortable bedfellows. And

Emma: Oh

Andrea Roberts: I also h- every-- as my caree- career progress it, progresses, I'm even more grateful for that, opportunity to work with that CFO because I can see how I apply it in my role every day. And in my current role, I've, I've really put time in to establish, a relationship with my CFO in my current business as well as in my previous business because, it's not completely self-serving, although at times it might sound or feel a bit like that. It's incredible how much you can learn

Emma: Yeah 

Andrea Roberts: a business by, by being curious and asking questions.

And, I think that once you demonstrate a, a curiosity and an interest in th- that part of the, the organisation, I think it, you can establish a really, collaborative and trusting relationship that then makes you a better marketer, ultimately.

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: where perhaps you [00:22:00] may, may not have had it otherwise, and it also helps you make better choices and decisions, and have

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: consult and rely on.

It's, it's been, it's been fantastic, and I do think it's something that has separated me from, other candidates, for

Emma: I'm sure.

Andrea Roberts: in, 'Cause I've been interviewed by CFOs in

Emma: Mmhmm 

Andrea Roberts: recent roles, so

Emma: Oh, interesting.

Andrea Roberts: Yeah.

Emma: Yeah. It, it's a great piece of advice, and it, it's funny 'cause it's almost become a bit of a meme, hasn't it? I've, I've seen it quite a few times just on LinkedIn of, you know, through a, through a recruitment process, marketers saying, "Oh, if marketing reports to the CFO, like run for the hills.

Like, you don't want that job."

Andrea Roberts: Yeah,

Emma: it's, and it's, you know, become a, become a bit of a joke. But as, as, as your experience is, is testament, it doesn't need to be that way. And, and actually, i- if the parties involved are open and understanding and curious, you, you can actually not only make that work, but ma- make it work really, really well,

Andrea Roberts: Yeah

Emma: get to a far better outcome [00:23:00] because of it.

It, it might just take a bit of, a bit of work and, as you said, a bit of curiosity. such a, such an important thing, curiosity, and I think kinda time and time again it comes across in different ways, again, through your story. Even just talking about, one, you know, continuous learning and maybe going back to, to do a PhD or, even doing the, the lecturing.

I think curiosity is one of those things that it's easy to say, like, oh, you know, be curious. Like, okay. But

Andrea Roberts: Yeah

Emma: actually, the impact that that can have over a sustained period of time, is, is huge. A- and again, I just think it's one of those really undervalued things that, that people don't perhaps necessarily, I was gonna say invest in, and I don't know that's the right word, but just to kind of adopt that kind of mindset of I wonder what this would be like, I wonder what would happen if I went and spoke to this person, I wonder what the answer to this question is.

And, and just, [00:24:00] you know, starting to, maybe it's as simple as asking more questions of, of people that perhaps you, you don't normally ask questions to

Andrea Roberts: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I actually feel like when I was thinking about our conversation today, that curiosity has been almost exclusively the most important skill or, or kind of behavior or approach that I've, that I've had in my career. I think that I've had a few moments where I have got my fingers burnt a little bit by perhaps sticking my nose in where other people didn't really want me to be, but generally speaking, it has been, the most important kind of, yeah, I guess, skill

career to help me be a better marketer.

And I think that, when I look back at the start of my career, whilst I've al- I've always been curious, [00:25:00] I was almost a bit or reticent to go and ask questions of others, thinking, "Well, you know, that's really got nothing to do with me. I mean, as much as I'd be interested to find out, I, I don't wanna bother them.

I don't wanna ask them stuff that perhaps they don't, don't wanna share or they don't see the relevance." And, and what has shifted in my career is a confidence to be more curious and to, I, I say to my team, sometimes about I'm always swimming in other people's lanes. Like, I, I have trouble staying in my own lane because of my curiosity, and

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: constantly checking out what might be going on over there.

Because I think that context, particularly if you work in really big businesses, and I'm in a

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Andrea Roberts: li- l- relative... This is the biggest b- no, no, the second biggest business I've worked in, and, there's so much to be learnt from other parts of the business, other functions, that, I think, again, it makes me a better marketer.

But what I have learnt over the [00:26:00] years is that people generally wanna share the information.

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: I had earlier in my career felt like it's not my place or I'll just stay over here, I'll just do my job really well, they'll tell me if it's something I need to know, almost the exact opposite. I now spend a lot of my time looking out,

Emma: Yeah 

Andrea Roberts: in, in the business, looking outside of my function, but then outside of the business as well, the competitor environment, different, other SaaS environments, other tech environment.

You know, like, this is the thing. I'm constantly just my nose out, to see what else is going on, to see how that

Emma: Yeah 

Andrea Roberts: what I'm trying to achieve in my current

Emma: Yeah. Do you, do you think that's partly a function, Andrew, of, of seniority? Of, of, you know, when you're, perhaps responsible for a more kind of localized marketing task, y- you are very much in your lane because, you know, that, that's your pure [00:27:00] focus. When you've got that broader remit and, and you're responsible for marketing across a, a, a business, across the whole business, almost by definition you need to look out, you need to look up and, and, and look across what the whole business is, is doing

Andrea Roberts: I think in theory that's true, but in practice I don't see a lot of it. I certainly don't see

Emma: Mmhmm 

Andrea Roberts: of it from other functions, and I think that the world could do with a bit more of it.

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: encouraging my own team to be more curious and to go and find out stuff and, and also when I say go, I mean, like, actually talk to the

Emma: Yes. Yeah. Have a real conversation, yeah.

Andrea Roberts: Yes, that's right. Which sounds kind of radical, but, I really encourage it because a lot of it is founded in relationships. You

Emma: absolutely

Andrea Roberts: a relationship and then, it's a wonderful environment or basis for, for discussion and curiosity and, and shared learning. So I think that the more senior you become, I [00:28:00] think it becomes more imp- even more important that you do it. But I wished I'd had the confidence earlier in my career to, to be a little more curious and to, to feel like I could get out of my lane from time to time, because I think that actually it held me back a bit. this notion of, "Oh, I don't think that's any of my business. I'm not sure that that's got anything to do with me." when in fact I encourage my team now to, to, to be curious, to volunteer, to find out, get on the project team, you know, just, just get in there and, and check it

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: that can happen? You find out that it's not

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: Yeah.

I think that's so rare that you do

Emma: Mmhmm 

Andrea Roberts: you show curiosity and it's never relevant.

It might not be relevant immediately in that moment, you, you find a place

Emma: Yeah, 

in your kind of learning and, absolutely. Yeah. A- and I think there's such a dual benefit to it. You know, there, there's the immediate benefit to the business of, of that broader [00:29:00] learning, that broader understanding, those kinda deeper relationships. But the benefit to the individual as well for their own career, for the same reasons that you, you know, you're out there having conversations, you're exposing, I was gonna say exposing yourself. That's perhaps not the right turn of phrase. Being exposed to, to other parts of the business. Hopefully not exposing yourself. and, and, you know, the next time a, a project comes up or there's an opportunity for a bit of collaboration, well, they know you, so they're gonna go, "Oh, how

Do you wanna come and work on, on this with us?" You know? I think it's, again, one of those things when people are thinking about career, often they default to the external o- of the organisation, and of course it depends on the size of organisation. But so many of your opportunities are, are probably internal.

and

and certainly if you're wanting to make a, a, a slight pivot or do something slightly different or move to the next level, you're probably gonna be able to far more likely [00:30:00] to get that opportunity in the business you currently work in than trying to make that change externally, necessarily. And I think people overlook that sometimes, just all the value that there's, there is internally.

Andrea Roberts: But I think even if you're in a relatively flat or small organisation, I think will be exposed to more opportunities through your internal networks and-- anyway, because you'll get

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: invited to new things. They might

Emma: Hmm 

Andrea Roberts: you to people that might be of interest, which is exactly what happened for me. And so your network expands as a result of you showing an interest and a curiosity in another part of the business.

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: I think it's essential, to be honest, for career progression. And then when you get into that world of, dare I say, networking, I'm not a huge fan of that, but I-I-I prefer to think about it as relationship management. I

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: is at the heart of that. You know,

Emma: Absolutely

Andrea Roberts: find yourself [00:31:00] talking to someone about perhaps their career and their pathway or what the-- what advice they could offer you, like, that all comes from curiosity,

Emma: Absolutely. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? I think networking, the word networking, it's just got such a negative connotation of, like, forced conversations and warm white wine in stuffy rooms, you know? It doesn't, it doesn't, like, doesn't kind of, you know, thrill people with excitement. But what you said there is exactly true.

All it is is talking to people.

Andrea Roberts: Yeah.

Emma: just talk to people. Ask questions. Tell me about what you do. Tell me about you. 

Like, that- that's actually all it is.

Andrea Roberts: Yes

Emma: and as I said, yeah, I think the word doesn't, doesn't help, but, really prioritizing that both internally and externally ultimately I think makes, makes such a difference.

I want to come back to AI, Andrea, 'cause we, you know, can't have a conversation these days about the modern, [00:32:00] modern world of, of marketing without talking about AI and, and you know, kind of what the, what the future holds.

Andrea Roberts: Yes

Emma: What, that piece of, of consultancy you did and, and that work you were doing, and, and with the institute, like, what did you, what did you take from that?

I guess what were your sort of broad learnings from that? How do you see things kind of panning out over the next few years? I appreciate that's a very difficult question, but

Andrea Roberts: look, I-- my broad learnings w-were, there are a few. One is, that no one really knows what they're

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: think that's the

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: I think that's the case because it's moving so quickly that

Emma: Yes.

Andrea Roberts: hard to,

Emma: Mm-hmm

Andrea Roberts: be an expert or a specialist. the other thing is that it's-- I mean, we're well beyond the, the, will I or won't I stage

Emma: Yes.

Andrea Roberts: AI discovery, and it's now, as we all, understand, imperative.

[00:33:00] So I think lean in, and lean in with the most positive, optimistic view that you can muster because I think fear just, will hold you back.

Emma: Yeah 

Andrea Roberts: know, there's some doomsday theorists out there, look, it may very well be the case, but I think you've, you've got a choice to approach it with, again, curiosity and optimism, versus, you know, kind of leaning more towards that existential crisis side of, AI.

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: And

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: you wanna have your eyes open, I just don't think there's any, any benefit in,allowing the fear to take over or becoming terrified of, of

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: So for I get excited by it, often. And when, when I had the, the privilege of speaking to so many other organizations about their AI experience, it was really interesting to me because when I invited these leaders to share their experience, many of them were like, "Oh, but we-we've [00:34:00] only just started.

We're not really sure And I said, "But that's the point. Like, we really want other people to know that not necessarily behind,

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: need to make a start." So,

Emma: Mm.

Andrea Roberts: hearing from others that, that s- and then realizing that you're not alone, that you're kind of experimenting, playing, getting frustrated, having some wins, no matter the size of the organization or the perceived success of that business, I think for me was really kind of, kind of really humbling in, in many

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: uh Yeah

it made me realize that you're only ever going to be as effective as your own level of optimism and curiosity and your interest to play and experiment.

So they, they were the main things when I was exposed to those other businesses. other real kinda watch-out for me from that experience was, [00:35:00] whilst experimenting and play is super important, is a little bit of discipline required

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: that you're not burning a whole lot of time and energy down rabbit holes of- Of certain AI workflows, agents, different tools, different functionality, and to always come back to the point of friction that I'm trying to solve for, and then go and find the solution to that.

So, it's very tempting and distracting actually

Emma: Yes

Andrea Roberts: be reading all of the news and all of the n- new functions and the, and the platform LLM updates. And it... You could actually... That, that could be your life's work,

Emma: Yes.

Andrea Roberts: actually get anything else done. and so there's a little bit of discipline to stay, in touch with the environment and what's happening, but equally keep an eye on what [00:36:00] are your strategic imperatives in the role you're in at the minute, and where are the areas that have the greatest friction that could be solved by AI.

And I

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: that's a, that's a daily kind of challenge for, for, for all of us because if you're not across what's happening, you could be missing opportunities of certain solutions to the problems you're experiencing. But equally, if you're totally immersed in the experimentation of it all, then you'll never actually solve any

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: won't get your job done either.

Emma: Yeah, it's, it's a balance, isn't it? I,heard from a lady recently, senior marketer running a team, and she was essentially saying that she'd s- lost almost one of her team members, junior team members to this AI rabbit hole. And, you know, days had gone by and, and she was kind of like, "W- where's the output from this person?"

a- and it turned out they were just absolutely, you know, in the rabbit hole up to here and, and she said it had taken over their, their, their actual [00:37:00] role. And, and so finding that balance of, yes, I need to learn it, yes, I need to be across it, but I- I've actually got a job to do as well. and also I, I think not defaulting to the fact that AI is always going to be the answer in every scenario.

To your point on friction, you know, you hear these people saying ... There was this really funny,video recently I saw of a comedian doing a commencement speech at Harvard. It was so funny, and he was basically slating AI and doing it in a very funny way, obviously, 'cause he was a comedian. But was kind of giving the example of this, you know, AI bro who was like, "Oh, you know, I've got AI doing all this, and AI reads my email, and then it replies, and rah, rah, rah."

And his joke was, "Well, you know who else can do that? Me." and, and I think sometimes we lose that perspective of, oh, you know, I can get AI to do- this is ... Yeah. But how long did it take you to get AI to do that when actually that's something that you could have just done yourself and, and there was [00:38:00] no actual essential benefit for the fact that AI did it apar- instead of you?

And so finding that, that balance of, what it's actually doing for you, and is it actually adding value or are you just using it for the sake of using it,

Andrea Roberts: Yeah.

Emma: I think is 

a a different balance. Yeah

Andrea Roberts: It's so true, and I have seen examples of over-reliance on AI

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Andrea Roberts: to the point where email, I mean, it- you can see it and

Emma: Yes, you can. Yeah

Andrea Roberts: have been written by AI, and I've actually had to s- ask a few people,

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: can you actually use your own brain just

Emma: Yeah 

Andrea Roberts: It's a pretty simple question."

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: the other thing where, yeah, and just to ask yourself, "Do I need a AI for this, or could I

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: do it

Emma: Yeah, just do it myself. Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: know

Emma: I do think,I was writing something, yesterday that I'm gonna put out shortly and do you remember when you were a kid in school [00:39:00] and you always had to show your working, not just the answer?

Andrea Roberts: yes, yes

Emma: think showing your working is going to become more and more important because if you're outsourcing the critical thinking, yes, you might be able to show the right answer, but if you've got no idea how you got there, what the inputs were, what the levers were, you know, all of the other things, if you've just got the answer or were given the answer by AI, y- you're gonna kind of come a cropper fairly, fairly spectacularly at some point.

Andrea Roberts: Well, I think, I think the, the... what erodes is trust.

Emma: whoever 

Andrea Roberts: you're communicating with or sharing your work with, whether that's your customers or

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: internal customers stakeholders, what ends up happening is that, you erode the trust in that relationship. And I do think-- I, I agree with you that I feel like we're gonna move to a world of more disclosure and transparency, and I feel like, I feel like if people know which part was AI-assisted [00:40:00] or generated versus human, it, I think there'll be a greater trust.

And I also think that just the way we, we conduct ourselves, w- in my case, as a marketer, I think that it's really important to do more of that, disclosure so that you're also equally showing the value of a human at the same

Emma: Yes.

Andrea Roberts: inherently, by saying this part was AI, y- the other part was me

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: and my own brain.

And so

Emma: Yeah, exactly

Andrea Roberts: I think that it's really important that humans are kept in the loop, and that it's quite clear where the humans are involved or not.

there are so many efficiencies to be gained, by, by leveraging AI appropriately, but I think there's a lot of, I think we, we've gotta start to shift where we've been really focused on efficiency.

I think we've gotta move a little bit more into that space of the ethics and governance side of it, disclosure [00:41:00] being one small component. But also, the inherent bias as well as the inaccuracies, you know.

Emma: Yes

Andrea Roberts: And I think that will come because I think people are already tripping over themselves a little bit.

Emma: Mm.

Andrea Roberts: and through that we're learning, you know, what might need to be done next. But I f- I think marketing as a function is one of the f- functions that is really at the forefront of what

Emma: I agree.

Andrea Roberts: do, and, and for me, I find that really exciting.

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: exciting. In fact, even since moving out of my consultancy into a full-time role again, I, I do feel like I'm a little bit behind in terms of that play and experimentation and, reading and learning because, you know, there's a whole lot of other stuff I need to get done. So I mean, I'm living it today, trying to

Emma: Mmhmm 

Andrea Roberts: balance of, continuing to be up to date, but also then applying it to my role.

Emma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Final question, Andrea, and it's always the final question here, and that is, what do you know now that you [00:42:00] wish you knew then?

Andrea Roberts: I know how important curiosity is and how generous people will be when you ask them questions. I mentioned it earlier that at the start of my career, whilst I was very curious, I was probably not confident enough to really lean into that and ask as many questions as I had. And, now, many years later in my career, I can see that when I did that, it served me really well, and I've got better at it, at doing it in a way that is respectful and constructive and productive. And I would recommend to anyone out there to, to lean into your innate curiosity. We all have it to an extent, and just remind yourself when you hesitate that my experience is that people are almost certainly more likely to, to welcome the, the questions than, than not, than [00:43:00] not.

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: really been the key, the key learning for me in my career

Emma: Mm. It's a great piece of advice, and I, I totally agree with you that I think the vast majority of people are open and happy to help and happy to have a conversation, and yet often the story that we tell ourselves is that, "Oh, they won't want to hear from me," or, "They'll say no," or, you know, whatever version of, of that.

and, and actually I don't think it's true. A- and even if they are the small percentage that says no, so what? You 

know,

you've 

Andrea Roberts: yeah.

Emma: you've lost nothing

Andrea Roberts: curiosity comes opportunity. I guess that would

Emma: Yeah.

Andrea Roberts: way of,

Emma: Yeah

Andrea Roberts: of describing my experience, yeah

Emma: Mm-hmm. Lovely. Thank you. I, really appreciate you taking the time and talking us through what you've learnt and, and what you're continuing to, to learn with AI. So thank you very much for, for sharing your experience and your insights

Andrea Roberts: Of course. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me

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