Who Are You Without Your Job Title? Redundancy, Identity & Redefining Success

What happens when the career you’ve spent decades building suddenly ends, and you realise just how much of your identity was tied to it?

Geoff Curtis spent nearly 30 years building a successful career in communications, including reaching Chief Communications Officer level. But when an acquisition led to redundancy, he didn’t just lose his job. He lost the title, structure and sense of relevance that had shaped much of his adult life.

In our conversation, Geoff talks openly about what came next: the emotional impact of redundancy, his tendency to use busyness as a way of avoiding difficult emotions, and the challenge of figuring out who you are when the professional identity you’ve relied on is no longer there.

We talk about navigating career transition after decades of professional success, the fear of becoming irrelevant, starting again without having a perfectly formed plan, and Geoff’s experience of writing vulnerably about the patterns he began to recognise in his own life.

We also explore how his definition of success is changing, from achievement, status and professional recognition towards values, joy and being more present.

If you’ve experienced redundancy, reached a career crossroads, or simply found yourself questioning how much of your identity and self-worth is wrapped up in what you do, this is a thoughtful and refreshingly honest conversation about what happens when the old measures of career success no longer quite work.

To connect with Geoff:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoffreycurtis/

Can you also find episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EmmaGrahamCareerCoach/videos

Your host, Emma Graham, Career Coach and ex-recruiter, is here to help you with:

 💡 Gain clarity on what’s important to you
 💡 Confidently communicate your value
 💡 Build a personal brand and a strong network
 💡 Take a strategic approach to your next move
 💡 Navigate the job market effectively
 💡 Build career confidence with a repeatable success blueprint

🌐 Explore my coaching programs and free resources:
 Website: https://www.egconsulting.au/
 LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/emmajgraham
 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmagrahamcareercoach/

🎁 Free Resources:
 📄 CV Development Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/cv-advice
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Transcript

Who Are You Without Your Job Title? Redundancy, Identity & Redefining Success

Hello and welcome to Your Career Journey, the podcast designed to be your compass through the twists and turns of career development. Today, I'm joined by Geoff Curtis, who spent nearly 30 years building a successful career in communications before redundancy forced him to confront a much bigger question: who are you when you no longer have the job title that's defined you?

We talk about identity, relevance, the pressure to stay busy, and how he's learning to measure success differently. It's an incredibly open and vulnerable conversation, so join me to find out more 

Emma: I am joined today by Geoff. Welcome

Geoff Curtis: Thank you for having me, Emma

Emma: All the way from Chicago today.

Geoff Curtis: Indeed. Indeed

Emma: Take me back, Geoff, and, and tell me about the, I guess, the corporate part of your career, to, [00:01:00] to use that terminology. You built a really successful career in corporate and, and made your way up to, the exec level. Talk me, talk me through it. Tell me about it

Geoff Curtis: Well, I, I, I would like to start just at the beginning just of my career, and obviously not go year by year, but just talk a little bit about, the career overall. So 30 years in the communications industry, both on the corporate side as well as the agency side. So split between about 11 years on the corporate side and 18 years on the agency side.

I think what's at least fascinating to me and interesting to me is that my, the career that I had in communications, and particularly in the biotech and pharmaceutical industry, really happened by accident because my studies in school were not communications related. I didn't go to a school where there was a communications major.

I was an English writing major, where there obviously are some transferable skills. You need to know how to write to be in communications. But it was kind of an accident. So it's [00:02:00] always surprising when I look back to say, "Wow, I stayed in that industry and in that career for my entire career." And the accident piece of it was I went and interviewed for a job in a completely different industry at a PR agency.

I didn't get that job, and they basically told me to go a floor down and try the the health, the healthcare group. And I did that and got that job. And so, again, I, I... the in- That's always a, a point of discussion, particularly when I talk to people, of "How, how did you start?" or "How'd you get involved?" And people are very surprised, but it happened by accident really.

And I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with just-- I'm an extrovert, so fell in love with kinda the extroverted nature of the communications field overall, and really got into the, the pharmaceutical and biotech space. Obviously had no background in science at all, and stayed with it [00:03:00] and really, as I said, fell in love with it because it was something that I could see where what I was doing, in a way, adjacently, was helping people, helping patients.

And I don't know, it, it gave me some sense of, of purpose. And then when I ended my career on the, the corporate side, I ended as chief communications officer and led a team of 54 people that I built from one to 54 in about eight and a half years,

Emma: Oh yeah

Geoff Curtis: and that was really exciting. It just, it just was exciting to be a part of a growing, a group within a company that as the company was growing.

Not too often do you get to do that in your career, so it was really exciting to kind of build the team and bring the team together.

Emma: Yeah. A- and that's a pretty, that's a pretty big change. You said from one to 54 in eight and a half years?

Geoff Curtis: Yeah. Yeah. So I started as an N of one and started the communications corporate affairs function, and the [00:04:00] company was growing so rapidly that we had to continue to add pieces. And I had never been part of a build that large before or a, a, a part of a company with that significant growth over that period of time.

And so it was one of those things where it was a, it was a interesting and, and new challenge, but a fun challenge to do something like that

Emma: Yeah. and to your earlier point about being able to see your own impact from, from one to 54 is a pretty significant impact. Like,

Geoff Curtis: Right

Emma: see, you you can see what you did.

Geoff Curtis: Well, and, and to that point too, Emma, you can really see kind of the evolution of

Emma: Hmm.

Geoff Curtis: tactics, and what that growth actually did for the enterprise overall, which to me was the cool piece of it. It was, it was not just the build itself and the adding of the people and [00:05:00] how even their careers grew over time.

It was really seeing both internally and externally what the function meant for the company and how we really changed kind of the dynamic and the external image of the company over time. And that then, to me, that was the really impactful piece that, that was exciting to, to see as we continued to do different things.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then the, the, the R word came, came calling. Redundancy.

Geoff Curtis: the R word.

Emma: The R word. Tell me, tell me about, I guess, how that came about and, and kinda talk me, talk me through what, what happened

Geoff Curtis: Yeah, it was, it was interesting. So, as I said, we, as the company was growing, We built a culture that a lot of people were very tied to. So when it came to the time of the acquisition, we announced it that we were being [00:06:00] acquired in December of 2022, it was a really shock-- it was a shock to the system for people, and I think there was a lot of not only fear just from a job standpoint, and that is natural, but I think the fear of losing something that you were really a part of building from the ground up.

And a- as I mentioned, not a lot of people get to experience in that, that in their careers. So that was a real emotional piece, and I'll, I'll get to the kind of the rest of the emotional piece afterward. But we announced, as I said, in December of 2022. We were supposed to close the acquisition in May of 2023, and then one of the, regulatory agencies in the US decided to sue us, to stop the acquisition, and it ended up not being completed until November of that year, so November of 2023.

Emma: Wow.

Geoff Curtis: But during, but during that time, back to [00:07:00] the emotional component of it, you can kind of see what rollercoaster it could have been. It was, "Okay, we're preparing for this huge change as a company, as a culture by May." And then all of a sudden, just kidding. It's not gonna happen in May. And then you had kind of the, the, the down point of people over the summer thinking, "Okay, one, is this gonna happen for real now?"

some people were thinking, "Hey, I'd be okay if it didn't, and I'd s- we'd, we'd continue to move on." and others were just a little bit more confused, and we continued to, to push forward and do the things that you would normally do when companies are being acquired, working with the other company, doing talent reviews to get to positions that may be redundant, may not be redundant.

Who are they gonna need for their team as it starts to expand? And so it was difficult for [00:08:00] me, and I think for my direct reports as well from a leadership standpoint, to try to hold that together because we'd never been really confronted with this type of emotion over the course of our career at, at, at this particular company, but really anywhere else.

And I think for people, and in particularly me, the redundancy, I mean, at my level was kind of expected, but I didn't know for sure, but it was kind of expected, and I think other people expected to be redundant as well, and I th- some people were sooner than others. It was staggered over time. kind of as people, as member of the teams left, there were different time periods with which they did that.

But emotionally I'd been through so much already, and I think as I look back, and even as I write about in the book, I really didn't take care of my own emotional [00:09:00] rollercoaster that was related to the redundancy. I was very concerned with, with my team, and is, was my team going to be okay? And that really had a significant impact on me.

It wasn't necessarily the redundancy itself, it was the emotional, what should I say, shrapnel that was left after it because I didn't do the work on myself. I just kind of was on cruise control and saying, "Okay, how do I get Joe Smith to keep his job, and how do I talk to the company to make sure that he, they understand that he is that integral piece or, or so and so is an integral piece?"

I, I... You, you have to... You're thinking differently, and you're not thinking about yourself necessarily and the emotional needs that you have. So that was probably the biggest impact on me anyway, pr- mentally

Emma: Yeah, I, I think it's one of those things that you don't often hear people talk about in relation to redundancy of, of when you are a very [00:10:00] senior or, or leadership role in that scenario. You are carrying, if you're a person who cares about others, you, you are carrying a, a significant weight there because, as you say, you're, you're dealing with your, your own, or, or not dealing with your own feelings about it, but you're carrying with you the weight of what's gonna happen to the 54 people that I brought into the company, and that I've, you know, been, been there and, and kind of helping them to, to build their careers, and that's a big deal.

Like, that, that is a lot of weight to, to carry. And, and also, you know, there's an element of, what's the phrase I'm searching for? Kind of game face there, where

Geoff Curtis: Yeah

Emma: you feel like you need to be there for the team, and I've gotta have my game face on, and, you know, I've gotta help them feel optimistic, positive, strong.

You know, whichever adjective it is. And, and you know, I, I can't show that actually I'm really uncertain or I'm [00:11:00] really struggling to, to know what comes next. I've, you know, I, I've gotta show up and do the thing.

Geoff Curtis: Well, and plus there's a, there's just a juxtaposition because I think our natural tendency is to be sad about what is happening and sad about what we're leaving. But the other part of that psychology too is that you should celebrate endings and celebrate what happened and what was good and what was positive and what you did create.

And I don't think we do enough of the latter because it's the hardest thing to do, because the easy default is to just be emotional and be sad. And yes, I, I was sad, and I didn't... And a lot of people were sad. And I don't know, though, that they knew why they were sad. Was it because the team wasn't going to be the same anymore?

Was it because the culture wasn't gonna be the same anymore? And, you know, on and on and on, the, the list grows. And unless you kind of identify the reason why [00:12:00] you're sad, I think you can't do-- If you don't do that, then you can't move on to that celebrating what did happen. But I think still, I'm, I'm still getting used to that, and I don't think it's easy to do that, but I think it's important to do it

Emma: Yeah, I, I agree. It's, as you say, it's almost the default, isn't it? Of, of something's ending, I loved it, therefore I am sad. And, and sure, it- that's part of the emotion, but gratitude for the great thing that happened, you know, happiness for the friendships that you made, you know, all of the, the learnings, the challenges, all of that. And also, I think probably from that reflection comes a, an element of why did I love it? What were the things that I loved about it that I would want to take forward into something else? 'Cause hopefully you might be re- able to recreate parts of that in, you know, whatever different scenario comes next.

But if you don't actually know what those [00:13:00] things are then how do you, how do you recreate them?

Geoff Curtis: Yeah, and equally what you didn't like as well, because I think we just, we automatically think that, and this happened in my situation too, okay, what's next? Where is so-and-so going to go, and so-and-so going to go, and where are they gonna work next? Because I wanna work there. And you think that replication is always good, and in some instances it is, what you just said, with some of the good, positive things.

But replication also means you're gonna replicate some of the things that you probably didn't like, and because people don't change that quickly over time and, and lose their bad habits. So it's, it... You have to kind of be careful about exactly what you want to, to replicate

Emma: Yeah. Yeah, and it's interesting, isn't it? Like, just because you really enjoyed working with, let's use Joe Smith again.

Geoff Curtis: Okay.

Emma: with Joe Smith. We had a, you know, we had a great, we had a great relationship. Joe's off over there. I'll, I'll see if there's an opportunity for, for me there too. But [00:14:00] that doesn't take into account the culture of the new organisation and, and all of the other things. As you say, just replicating the, the Joe Smith of it isn't, isn't necessarily going to get you... Maybe the remit's quite different, the resources are quite different, you know, the management structure's quite different, all of the things.

And if you're not clear on all of those elements, yeah, you can see how someone would, would go wrong in that instance and, and then potentially be really surprised that they've,

Geoff Curtis: Right

Emma: gone wrong and, and not really know why or how that, how that happened

Geoff Curtis: Yeah. I thought this was going to be the same, and it's not the same. And because you didn't do that inventory in advance, you, you, you still don't know why

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. So once you'd kind of got everyone else, everyone else through it and then, and then it kind of comes to, to you. Talk, talk me through that

Geoff Curtis: Right. I, so part of the, the journey piece [00:15:00] of it, when I, when I did do my knew, know my job was going to be redundant, I had already planned kind of my next move, and I had applied for a fellowship at the University of Chicago, and it was called the Leadership in Society Initiative. It was designed for people who were looking for that next phase to use their career experience to impact society in a different way.

And I used it as an opportunity to s- one, to say, "Okay, I n- need a break from doing what I was doing."

Emma: Yeah

Geoff Curtis: But I was really kicking the can down the road and staying busy and trying to stay busy because when you're busy up until a certain point of time and then not going to be as busy as you were, at least for me, I need something to keep me busy.

And so

Emma: Yeah

Geoff Curtis: I was in it for the right reasons, I really was. W- there was good intention there, and I got a lot of value out of it, and I write about it in the book, and it's, and it's... There's still a lot of value [00:16:00] that I'm, that I'm getting from it. But I think it was m- me trying to do what I did normally throughout my career and saying, "Okay, I'm gonna leave this thing on a Friday and go back to another thing on a Monday because I know I need to keep busy and keep moving, or else I'm gonna be very, very bored."

And I think the thing that stands out for me is that probably a week after I left the corporate role, my wife said, "This is going to hit you at some point.

Emma: Mm.

Geoff Curtis: It's going to hit you." And I said, "No, I'm totally fine. All good. All good. All good." And it was about a year later where, where it kind of hit me. But again, I was battling a lot of different things, even through the fellowship, about the i- the identity piece of it, who I was, who I was in career, now stepping into this new environment with people who I didn't know, and we were together for a full academic year.

I felt a lot of them were more experienced, smarter, had [00:17:00] just different knowledge than I did. And moving from being an expert in the room to not being an expert in the room, and understanding how much weight you really put onto that, and with the short period of time with which that happened, it was pretty shocking.

And so I, I had... I struggled with it for a good couple of months. And then the, the latter part of, I think we're in 2024 now, I just got severely depressed and kind of lost direction and didn't know where I was going and didn't know what I wanted to do. And I think that's, of course, my wife was right, and it-- that was the time where it kind of hit me.

It, it kind of hit me and I, I just... I was, I was lost. I was lost

Emma: Yeah. And do you think... Y- you mentioned the identity piece there, and, I, I come back to it because I, I think it is such a, piece of the, the sort of redundancy puzzle, if you [00:18:00] like, that we... A- and I think part- particularly men actually, but I, I think we all do it, but, but, but men perhaps slightly more so. There's so much attached to the title and so much of identity is, is kind of built up with, you know, "Well, I'm a, you know, chief communications officer. I've, I've got this big, you know, kind of corporate, corporate job," and, and then it's not there anymore, and who am I without that? And they're pretty big questions to, to be asking yourself, I think particularly if you've never asked yourself, self those types of questions before

Geoff Curtis: And I never did. And I think you've hit on a very key point, and I, I... That's what I'm telling a lot of people now who want to talk to me just about some of the things I discuss in the book, is that a lot of the work is exactly that. It's, it's asking who you are when you're not doing the thing that gives you your identity, or who are you [00:19:00] when something that defined you goes away, and that could be any type of loss.

And I don't think

Emma: Yeah

Geoff Curtis: w-we, we do that type of work, back to the... what we were talking about before, of doing the inventory of the things that you like. We don't do that, and that's a lot easier than trying to figure out who you are outside of work. I can tell you, Emma, that the best way I can describe it is that...

Well, two things. One, it's, it's the, the armor completely goes away, and you don't realize that you're wearing any armor throughout your entire career, but you are, and it's very protective and it's comfortable and all of those things. I found a lot of safety, I found a lot of comfort, both emotionally and just mentally in, in work, and that was my place to run.

And when I didn't have that armor anymore or the, the scaffolding that was around me, I didn't know what was inside me because I hadn't done that work [00:20:00] to discover it and how it was going to really make me feel when it, when it was gone, and I think that was the most difficult part and actually kind of the sad part too, because a, a 49 to 50-year-old person at the time doesn't know who he is, and that's...

I mean, saying that out loud sounds a little weird. It does. And it's... But I also didn't do the homework leading up to that, and I... It was, it was, it was scary. It was scary. And I, I'll point to one other example. Right before I left my corporate role, I was c-concurrently doing the fellowship, so I was doing a little bit of double duty at the same time.

I went to an event that was all senior-level communicators. It was invite only. I had never been invited before and it... I, I felt really good that I'd been invited. And I said, "Oh, this is a great kind of send-off that I'm finally included in this [00:21:00] group of, of senior-level communicators." And I was actually asked to present, and I presented just about transition and change and all of those things and how do you carry culture from some...

from one company to another after you put so much sweat equity into building one culture, things like that. And at dinner, I asked a Fortune 50 chief communications officer how much longer I would be relevant after I left, and that was the stupidest thing to ask because He put a time frame on it. The person put a time frame on it and said, "Probably about 18, a year to 18 months."

And that scared me to death.

Emma: Yeah

Geoff Curtis: And so not only is it the identity piece of it, but now it's relevance?

Emma: You've got like a time clock ticking in the back of your head,

Geoff Curtis: I- I- I did. And, and so that, that was, that was difficult. And again, [00:22:00] it's not necessarily something that we think about. We don't really think about being relevant, or at least I didn't while I was in role. It just came naturally because I was a, a, a senior leader. I had had a, a, a long career in the industry.

People knew who I was. People listened to things I said occasionally, and all of those things. And you don't realize how big of a deal it is until it's not there anymore. And I think honestly, that conversation drove me to start my own consultancy to kind of jump back into it after I was done with the fellowship.

I mean, I really do because I thought, I said, "Ooh, I don't want to lose that feeling. I don't want to lose what I previously had because I, I'm scared of losing that."

Emma: Yeah

Geoff Curtis: maybe I was scared of who I was underneath all of it

Emma: That's what I was just thinking as you were saying that actually, of like I was scared of losing that. If, is it that you're scared of losing that, or is it that you're [00:23:00] scared of what comes next 'cause you don't know what that is? It's, it's scared of losing and fear of the unknown potentially.

It's, it's I guess two sides of the same coin, isn't it?

Geoff Curtis: Right. No, I think you're exactly right, and particularly if you haven't done the work to ask yourself who you are without that, the, the identity, the relevance, the title, all of those things, there is a fear of the unknown. Because even when I started consulting, I didn't know if I could do it even though I'd been doing it for so long, because it was just new and I was solo, and I was thinking, "Is anybody even gonna listen to me?

Am I gonna get any clients? Is this gonna happen?" And it was just, again, to your point, that unknown of not knowing if you can succeed without what you had before

Emma: Yeah. The other thing that you mentioned in there that I just wanted to come back to, 'cause it's something that,I, I see a, a lot with, with people that go through redundancy and you mentioned busyness. And I, I almost kind of want to do it in, in quotes of, [00:24:00] of busyness 'cause, you know, finish on the Friday, start something new on the Monday, which on the surface I, I get it feels kind of logical and, and you might even go as far as to say, well, it feels healthy.

You know, I'm moving forward. There's, you know, I'm taking action. and, and so it feels like the, the right kind of course of action. But if you haven't actually stopped to process the loss essentially, because it is a loss. It's, it's the job, it's all the things, it's the people and, and everything that goes into it, and if you're just going kind of straight into the next thing, kind of feels like you're just sort of shoving all that stuff down like it hasn't gone away.

It's still there. You've just kind of shoved it down and, and, and pushed on. and so I'd, I, I wonder when I hear people say things like that, the, the, the busyness is, it's kind of a crutch. If I just keep moving and I keep busy and I'm, you know, go, go, go, then [00:25:00] I don't have time to, to think about all this stuff because I, I'm just busy.

Geoff Curtis: Right. No, and I did that for 30 years, and I think that was-- that's why it was important for me when I actually sat down to write, was really looking at all those patterns throughout the course of my career, and how many times did I do that, and what was I really running from and running to? And I don't know if I was really running to anything better, but I was probably running from a lot of different things, and whether that was something that I didn't deal with at the last job, some other emotion externally, internally, whatever it was, some, some sense that I needed to try something new so that I could really explore something that I didn't know about my-- Whatever it was, I, I did that [00:26:00] for 30 years, and I just did it even after I was...

Emma: Yeah.

Geoff Curtis: After my last corporate role, I did it again. And it, it's-- You don't think about that processing because whether it's, okay, I have to keep busy, or I have to keep working, or I can't take time off between the next thing because of financial reasons, bec- whatever it may be, you, you-- we don't care for ourselves the same way we care for our careers.

And it, it's such a foreign concept for people or most people, and I, I, I just-- we, we'd rather not, what we talked about before, either celebrate the ending or process the loss or however you wanna look at it, we'd rather not do that because the easier way out is to just keep busy. And I think that's one thing I'm trying to find now is or avoid now is falling back into those old, old patterns.

Emma: Mm-hmm. Yeah

Geoff Curtis: is this... Is the book promotion, is having [00:27:00] conversations like this just busyness because I need to stay busy? Is other... Are other things that I'm doing actually productive busyness or is it not? Or is it... Am I just trying to fill voids that I normally filled with work-related things? And so that's... I'm very attentive to that now, particularly in this time

Emma: Yeah. hearing you say, you know, I think you sort of started by saying,so I, you know, sat down to sort of start writing the book and, and starting to kind of ask yourself these questions and, and work through, these things. That the word that came into my head hearing you say that was brave.

Like, that sounded to me like a really brave thing to do to, to kind of confront this stuff, if you like. Did, did you feel brave at the time? Like, what was the, what was the, the feeling?

Geoff Curtis: I don't know that I felt brave. I felt [00:28:00] exposed.

Emma: Hmm.

Geoff Curtis: that's, I, I, I think writing the book in the manner which I did, and I, I didn't write it for an audience, with an audience in mind. I wrote it for myself. I knew in order to kind of fully process things that I had gone through or was going through, I needed to be transparent, vulnerable, and just get it all out there.

And so I was a little bit scared in going that deep to exposing myself. So I didn't really feel necessarily brave in doing that. I, I kinda a couple times said, "Am I really doing this? Am I really saying this?" And, and, and it, it, it was difficult at times because, I mean, you brought up men aren't good talking about this stuff earlier, and I agree with you.

A majority of the feedback I'm getting right now is from men. And [00:29:00] so I'm glad that I did something for myself to confront my emotions, but also glad that it is hopefully helping people start the conversations that we're having now, and getting to a point where you at least start to, to process and do the work.

I will tell you though, I didn't expect when I sat down to write it to uncover the same patternistic behavior for really a majority of my career and, and life. And so that was kind of a new thing to me. I had a little bit of an inkling to say, oh, well, maybe I did this thing earlier in my career, or maybe I did this thing after my dad passed away, or whatever it may be.

And it was a little bit unexpected of how there was this interesting through line th- through- throughout, and I think that was really one of the harder things to just confront because, I mean, imagine it, Emma, after 30 years you're looking [00:30:00] back and saying, "Wow." You know, on paper and externally, people think I had a successful career.

I'm not denying that, but people also thought that I had all of it together all the time,

Emma: Yeah

Geoff Curtis: And it's almost kind of you find this weird disappointment even that, did I disappoint people along the way by creating this mask of stability that I had? And probably not, but y- you, you... those thoughts kind of creep into your head when you're diving this deep

Emma: Yeah, absolutely. the pattern that I thought it on something earlier that you said as well, and, like, the, the patterns that we repeat s- totally unconsciously just over and over again without even realizing. And as you say, 30 years, 40 years can go by and you suddenly realize, and you're like, I, I have done that, that thing or a version of that thing [00:31:00] over and over and over again with- without even realizing." and I think... A- and that's, I think, why I come back to brave and, you know, I appreciate that it didn't feel like that at the time. It, it felt the, the complete opposite as you're doing it, but to someone hearing the story, that's how I hear it. I, I hear someone actually being really brave to, to sit down and go, "Okay, what is actually going on here?

Let me take a really deep breath and, and kind of just start to unpack all of this stuff." I, I think that is really brave, and I think as you said, the, the feedback that you've been getting particularly from, from men, I think the thing that I think is particularly brave about it is that by doing it yourself, you're almost allowing, that's the wrong word, but giving other people the opportunity to do the same thing to, to show that it's okay.

You know? Like, the [00:32:00] world didn't end. I, I didn't kind of crumble into a heap on the floor. It was tough, sure, but I'm okay. Like, we...

Geoff Curtis: Yeah

Emma: you can do this and, and, and kind of work through it

Geoff Curtis: Yeah. I mean, I'm telling a lot of people it's permission, not a plan.

Emma: Yeah.

Geoff Curtis: It's, it's permission to get to start doing this, and hopefully they see my step as saying things out loud, and maybe they'll have the confidence to do so. But that's kind of the, the, the conflict too in the external feedback of the book, is that some people want a plan, some people want a five-step plan.

I don't have that. It's not in the book. I, I'm giving what you just said, allowing people, giving people permission to just be vulnerable as they want to be, and that's, to me, the start. That's the start. You don't have to do it for a month, two months. You could do it for a couple of days and just [00:33:00] have a conversation where you're trying to be vulnerable, trying to be a little bit more transparent about what you're feeling and why you're feeling it, or even if it's just processing something that just happened that may be hitting you a little bit differently than the thing, other things that have happened in the past

Emma: Yeah. And I think also the knowledge that of us have it figured out. You, you know, like, it can look one way on the outside, someone can have a, a super successful career, you know, great family life, whatever it is, all the things. mean they've got it all figured out. you know, the more conversations that I have, I sort of speak to a of people through the podcast, through my, through my coaching business, I can tell you no one's got it figured out.

We're all, we're all just doing the best that we can and, and, and trying to, you know, figure it out one, one step at a time. And I think just that is a great word to use, permission, to, to kind of go, "Yeah, [00:34:00] I, I'm, I'm not sure either. Let's, let's kind of talk about it and, and let's, you know, let's figure it out together."

Geoff Curtis: Well, and I think i-i-- look at what just social media has done to that concept and, and LinkedIn, LinkedIn in particular. And it's not me bashing LinkedIn because I participate in LinkedIn every day and I'm guilty of doing the same thing. Showing, showing up there saying how everything is great, how I'm grateful for this, how I've done this, how we've all, you know, been successful at doing this.

But n-nobody shows the work to get there, and often that work was not easy. And just imagine, Emma, if more people

Emma: I know

Geoff Curtis: led by example and said, "You know what? I'm unfinished, and it's okay to be unfinished," and they said that out loud. Imagine how different things may feel because w-we [00:35:00] celebrate all achievements and celebrate in their...

I, I mean I do too, and but we don't celebrate the work to get there and that, that, you know, the,

Emma: yeah.

Geoff Curtis: middle and all the liminal spaces that people go through and it's...

Emma: Yeah

Geoff Curtis: And, and I don't know. I, I, a-and again, I, I, I didn't wanna necessarily say I'm going to be carry the flag to do this, but I just think it's important for more people to do it and more people to see that there is a different world out there than just the, I don't know, the, the, the tidiness that is people who just think that everyone is, as you said, have it all together or everybody's just finished perfectly

Emma: Yeah. I, I like that phrasing of the tidiness. It's the, so that ties in with the messy middle, doesn't it? But yeah, we're all

Geoff Curtis: Yes

Emma: we're all so tidy. Like, we're all such, you know, finished, perfect versions, and nothing could be, nothing [00:36:00] could be further from the truth in, in reality, I think. How... The other thing that was coming to mind as, as you were talking about that, Jeff, how do you, how do you sort of come to think about success now? 'Cause I would imagine your, your definition kind of in the corporate days was potentially tied to those things, the corporate career, the title, all of that kind of stuff. How, how do you think about it now?

Geoff Curtis: Well, in the spirit of being unfinished, I'm still trying to figure that out. No, I, I really am. I wish I could give your li- listeners an answer, but that's the hardest thing right now, because I'm falling back into bad habits, measuring things that I do with old metrics, and it's driving me absolutely crazy.

And so I'm trying to find the, what those new definitions are and how I feel. I'm trying to find joy. I'm trying to find [00:37:00] joy in things that I'm doing, and I can tell you promoting a book, it, it's a test. It's a test. I absolutely love the people I've met. I love having conversations like this. To me, this is success, is, is spreading the word and having conversation.

But it's so different from past successes that I'm still coming to terms with if, if that is going to make me feel the same way, and I think that's the most difficult piece right now. And so I'm just kind of taking experience by experience and saying, "Okay, does that, does that align with my values that I wanna have with helping people or spreading the word or having conversations or doing whatever, and is that okay?

Is success now defined by values that I have or a mission that I have when it previously wasn't?" Maybe, hopefully. [00:38:00] my wife and I just launched a nonprofit, and that's gonna also be a big test because we have a cohort of 23 students who we're... are going to be with us for the next two years, and we're, we're trying to help them build more durable and meaningful careers in the PR and comms industry And I need to be okay with that this isn't my success, this is their success and what they're going to do in their careers, and that's a completely different metric.

This is not necessarily dependent on me, it's dependent on them. And can I live vicariously through the success that they're going to have, and will that bring me joy and the similar feeling? So again, a lot of things that are still... I'm still trying to navigate my way through, the best that I can, and it, it's, it ca- it, it continues to be a bit of a struggle

Emma: Yeah. It, it's such an interesting point, the, the metric one, [00:39:00] because not only are the metrics different, in some cases they don't even exist or you don't actually get to, to find them out. You know, for example, I'm sure this is true, someone somewhere has read your book, and it's probably changed their life.

Like, it's fundamentally changed the way that they think about themselves and what they do, and you will, might never know that. person isn't necessarily going to reach out to you and send you a message and be like, "Hey, Jeff, your book changed my life," or, you know, "It's had a fundamental impact on me."

You- hopefully you do get some of that feedback, and I'd imagine that feedback's incredibly meaningful. But you're not gonna get that from everybody. You, you might have really touched someone's life. Hopefully someone listening to this conversation, it's really touched them and, and they're thinking about the way that they maybe want to do things differently. or I may never know that. a- and it is a really interesting space to [00:40:00] be in. A- and it's interesting to hear you articulate it in that way because it's something that I struggle with as well in, in what I do. Certainly on the, the podcast side of things. Obviously, the coaching thing's a little bit more immediate.

You, you do get feedback from people. But not so much on the podcast. And, and even in, you know, even previously in my old recruitment days, I, I can think of examples where I've met someone years and years later and, and they've, you know, said something kind of profound, and I've thought, "Wow," like, "I never knew that." And, and there must be, there, there must be so many examples of that. And as you say, it's finding your own... What's the word? I was gonna say peace. It sounds a bit cliched, but your, your own kind of peace and acceptance with that,

Geoff Curtis: Yeah

Emma: I, I'm, I'm doing good work. I'm making a difference. I'm having an impact, but I might never know that I am. [00:41:00] And, and that's a, that's a weird kind of in between space to be in, I think.

Geoff Curtis: Yeah, it's, it's the, the tree in the forest concept. If the tree falls in the forest is and nobody's around, d-

Emma: did it

Geoff Curtis: did it make a sound?

Emma: Yeah,

Geoff Curtis: and,

Emma: and so it's a little bit of that and getting comfortable with that, but you're exactly right, and I appreciate you putting it in that context too because, look, admittedly, yeah, I look at book sales.

Geoff Curtis: Those are old metrics. I, I shouldn't do that, I mean, because I have to get back to the original plan here and that was I didn't want to write a bestseller. That wasn't the goal. The goal was to do exactly what we're doing right now. Meet as many people as I can, have as many conversations as I'm gonna have, encourage conversation among people who weren't having these conversations.

And so now I just have to continue to remind myself that that is good enough. That, to your [00:42:00] point, I may be helping somebody or changing somebody's approach that was thinking a little bit differently. And if I don't know that, okay, I have to be okay with that. I also have to be okay with just sitting and saying, one, I wrote a book.

That's a great accomplishment. Two, I think it's a pretty good book. And I, I, I, I, I think... But I, I think the difficult piece and what I struggle with is that I poured... I was so vulnerable and I was so transparent that, I don't know, part of me expects a little bit more just because I put myself out there.

And I know that's a little bit selfish and a little bit cocky maybe, but it's, it's something that you start to feel and you start to judge a little bit to say, "Why, why aren't people liking my thing?"

Emma: Mm.

Geoff Curtis: I poured my heart into it and I would expect more people would like it. And again, that's what I battle though.

It's the... That's an old metric

Emma: Yeah. But it might not be that... I- it- it might very well be that the people like it, they're, they're just not [00:43:00] telling you that they like it.

Geoff Curtis: True. You're exactly right

Emma: that... Yeah. It's a, it's, yeah, it's a very, it is a strange space to, to be in. As you say, I think it's the difference between the external metrics versus the internal metrics.

And I think to a certain extent, like, as human beings we're, we're just not really wired that way. You know, there's tens of thousands, however many it is, years of evolution that are, are, are wired into why you keep looking to the book sales and the

Geoff Curtis: That's all right

Emma: metrics. And, you know, you're, you're battling a lot of, a lot of years of, of, of evolution there.

But, yeah, it's, it's a really interesting, an interesting point of, of how you, how you measure that and, yeah, how you come to think about it. And to be fair, that question around success and, you know, what success means to someone in kind of different seasons of their, of their life is essentially that's the reason why I started the podcast.

to, to have those types of conversations and, and to explore [00:44:00] what versions of success to people and, yeah, in, in different kind of times in, in their life. I think it's a really, I think it's a really fascinating question and, you know, to the, to the unfinished, point we were making earlier, like, I, I, I, I don't know that there's necessarily an answer.

There's, there's certainly not one answer for that's true. There's the answer that's true for the individual or the things that kind of feel important to them. but to me they're the, they're the interesting and important, I think, questions to, to ask.

Geoff Curtis: Yeah. No, I agree. It's right up there with, it's right up there with who you are. Who are you when you're not,

Emma: Absolutely.

Geoff Curtis: identity? Yeah

Emma: Yeah, yeah. Final question, Jeff, and it's always the final question here, and that is what do you know now that you wish you knew then?

Geoff Curtis: Oh, I love this question, because I had to do a lot of exploration throughout the writing process to, to kind of [00:45:00] get to the answer. And it's how meaningful presence is and being present. And I wish I could go back 25 years and tell my younger self that, that that is a key to success, is being present.

primarily for friends, loved ones, family, all of those things. And to really be attentive to that as you're building career, as you're becoming successful in your career, all of those things. I'm in the process right now of trying to repair friendships, repair relationships, just because I wasn't present during my career.

And it's interesting to think about my, my wife, we've talked about this a lot and, and she kind of says it in passing, but [00:46:00] she... And it, and it, and this is how I know that it not being present did have an impact because she said, "I always knew that the job came first for you." And that's a hard, one, admission to make.

Two, it's a hard thing to hear. It's a very hard thing to hear. And so that's, that's the space I'm in now. How do I be more present even when I'm doing the things that I'm doing with the book and the nonprofit and all of those things? How do I make presence the thing? And maybe that is back to the success question.

Emma: Yeah

Geoff Curtis: Maybe that is a lead indicator right now for success, the fact that I'm more present, that I'm spending more time even with myself, and being present for myself. maybe that is the, the ultimate success that I should consider. But that's, that's the biggest thing that I'm kind of honing in on now.

Emma: It's a really, it's a really lovely [00:47:00] answer and I, I haven't heard a version of, of that answer, and certainly one that uses the word presence specifically. But it's a really, it's a lovely, lovely word to, to choose. I think I, I, I sort of have a version of, of that answer and for me it's time. but when I say time, what I actually mean is presence. a- and actually to, to hear you articulate it in that, that way, I'm like, yeah, that's actually the, the point that I made to myself when I said time. It's time and space to, to use in a way that feels meaningful and important to me, which probably ultimately is, yeah, time and presence with, with loved ones, with friends, and being present in your life, not just kind of busyness,

Geoff Curtis: Right

Emma: way through it.

Yeah.

Geoff Curtis: Exactly. Exactly

Emma: Thank you so much, Jeff. I've so enjoyed this [00:48:00] conversation and yeah, I really, really admire what you've done with the book and, and the types of conversations that you're having and, just yeah, so enjoyed chatting to you. So thank you. Thank you very much for, for taking the time

Geoff Curtis: No, thank you for having me on and I appreciate the opportunity. I really, enjoyed this conversation

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