Vigorously with Val Kleinhans

Ashley Oken is Living ‘Almost Famous’

• Val Kleinhans

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Does being a music journalist today look anything like it did in Almost Famous? Is it still just as fun? Are there still opportunities to build relationships in the industry we love? In short, yes.

Writer Ashley Oken has been featured in Alternative Press, ELLE and The New York Times - and she's not stopping anything soon. 

In this episode, Ashley gets real about how essential commitment is, the struggles women sometimes face in the music industry, and how holding onto those perfect 90s and early 00s moments gets her through it all.


Get more Ashley: https://www.instagram.com//themillionthashleyyouknow

Get more Val at https://valkleinhans.com/

SPEAKER_02

What's up, bigger sponsor? I am so glad you have been enjoying work on New Wednesdays lately. I know we normally do these as solo reflections and solo thoughts and solo takeaways, but today we're gonna do it a little bit differently. We're bringing on a guest. Number one, because we love guests. Number two, because I think you're gonna have some professional takeaways from this one. If you're gonna up your business, up those professional skills, work on your business, especially as it applies to writing, media, those types of industries, anything creative, there are gonna be some takeaways for you this episode, I guarantee you. Don't get the idea, we living line. Welcome to another video vigorously with me about fine hands of vigorous ones. We have a treat, a very nostalgic treat for you today. Writer and fellow lover of the 90s and early 2000s nostalgia, Ashley Oaken is in the building. I am thrilled to have you. How are you?

SPEAKER_00

I am great. I'm so glad to be here. I am like such a millennial. I just live in the 92000s all the time, especially with what's going on in the world right now. It's saving my sanity.

SPEAKER_02

It really is. I'm I'm I'm based in Minnesota, so you don't have to tell me. Like we it's we've been through it. Right, particularly this winter.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, from New Yorker to you. Awful. What has been going, yeah. I can't even imagine.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's a lot. So you're a millennial like me. What year were you born?

SPEAKER_00

1992.

SPEAKER_02

92. Okay, so you're two years younger than me. I'm 90. But so we're very close. Very close. I love that. I think there's no better way to start this off than really by asking what do you love about music?

SPEAKER_00

Everything, everything's there. Um it's weird. Even though I cover rock music for a living, I my gateway entry point was NSync. 100%. I think a lot of millennials can say the same thing. Because we were raised in a time of boy bands being huge and everybody had a favorite member. Mine was JC Chazet personally. Me too! Okay, oh, good. Another village big speaker.

SPEAKER_02

I didn't get the Justin Girls. I'm sorry, I didn't. I was like, still, I'm like, ah, there's something just like too smug about him. Like I clocked out even then. I did. I was like, I don't know about this dude, but I you know, to your point, I mean, your print is your primary medium. I remember all of the magazines we grew up with that too. So no tiger beans, yes, J14, all of them, all of them that had to have an influence on you and what you do today. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I remember my mom getting me my first issue of J14 because she thought that's what was in at the time, trying to be him. I was like, okay, thanks, mom. Yeah. Um, I just remember just seeing the NSYNC members, Backstreet Boys, Joe Jonas, all of those pop bands, and I just thought it was very cool that people could just ask them, to my understanding, whatever they wanted.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And they had to answer those questions. And I was like, if I can't be the manager of NSYN, I could at least ask JC Chase something.

SPEAKER_02

So so why why was manager? Yeah. Why was manager uh second choice?

SPEAKER_00

I thought this is what you did. I had no understanding at eight. I just knew who Lou Perlman was. Now we know the whole context. Yes, but I thought, oh, when you make it really big in the music industry, you just get to manage other bands and like direct their careers and like be really involved in a day-to-day like making music, and it seemed like a very male-centric thing. So I thought maybe I could do it as like a woman. Maybe I could like break the mold somehow.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there was also uh there was a little bit of an element of trailblazing behind it. I saw it too in radio for all the years that I did it. I was like, I am one of two female hosts here. Where is everybody? What like meaning, like, where are my girls? Like, where because I know I wasn't the only one reading those magazines like you and I were when and and doing those things that sparked our interest just in music, the culture surrounding it, and wanting to just put on like our anthropology hats and understand why it was that we were so into it and so passionate about it. I look at what you do and I go, man, she is quite honestly living almost famous in some ways. You really are like you're you're a writer and contributor to a bunch of different independent music magazines. Media's changed, it's changed for the people who create it, it's changed for the people who consume it. So, as a writer, I really would love your perspective on this because this isn't my wheelhouse, this is yours. Do you feel like you're actively watching the industry and the logistics behind doing what you do when it comes to like print change at a rapid pace?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, absolutely. Um, I started taking journalism really seriously, I would really say about six, seven years ago. And it's just insane in that amount of time how many newsrooms have just shrunk or disappeared completely, how many um influencers are now taking over the spots of seasoned journalists, how many seasoned journalists are now being laid off, and now you are competing with people who have easily double your experience for the same kind of byline. Um, a lot of publications are pivoting to a video first format, which means writing isn't as cherished as it once was, like back in the 90s. It seemed to be like the thing to do. I mean, I remember like watching Sex in the City way too young, obviously. Right, we were oh Sarah Jessica Park is making that kind of money. I could do that, and then when you're a grown-up, you're like, wait, there was no way she was making that kind of money now.

SPEAKER_02

It was all TV, but I did. I mean, we we love that show just because we I think we love the camaraderie between the four main characters. I for me, that's really what it boiled down to. Yes, it was cool that Carrie had this desirable job, but also you're looking at the real part of it, which is that camaraderie between the four main characters. You're you're obsessed at that point. I mean, because you're like, this could be me and my friends. Like, why are you why are we doing this? Why don't I have an appendhouse in New York? And that because it's expensive. But um, I don't I know, I don't have to tell you. So talk to me about watching that change and why it didn't turn you away from sticking. I mean, it didn't, it didn't deter you from doing print, even though it looks radically different than it did, even you know, 10 years ago. Why why stick with it?

SPEAKER_00

It's just something I've always loved to do. It's how I first started. I mean, I was writing for this like now defunct fashion blog, and I figured it's not my thing. I mean, I'm not like the most stylish person in the world, and I just didn't feel the need to keep up with that specific cultural lifestyle bent. Um, they went to Cosmopolitan and that was fun, but again, they wanted a certain kind of voice you had to write in, and I didn't really feel comfortable with that. Um, not knocking it, and it did lead to all this other stuff eventually, but I just figured I want to really write about music and like rock music in particular.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

I knew I had a goal, but I had no idea how to go about it. So I just started just like cold pitching a bunch of other people through people I already knew in journalism, you know. And then um this guy Patrick, who was the R.I.P. MTV music news. MTV News rather, um, my boss there at the time, and he gave me my first assignment to review Ariana Grande's album at the time. Seven Rings was on it, the single.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I know what one.

SPEAKER_00

And um, I wrote that and it did really well. I was surprised. I'd never done it before. I'm like, let me just like throw this out in the wind, see how this works. And um, it just gave me a lot more assignments, and I was like, oh, this is something I can get paid to do, and like I get press badges to do this stuff, and I get to do what I thought you did at eight. Ask people basically whatever you want, you know. Like, I thought that was a really cool thing of kind of living the dream you had in your head when you were like in third grade. Um, so I think that's what keeps me going mostly. Yeah, but yeah, I think print is still important because I feel like it's just such a different experience to live through words on a page as opposed to just watching somebody do something. Like I feel like I'm not connected to it in the same way. It's like why you would watch a movie instead of maybe reading the book because the movie transports you to the world that the book has shaped in a way that maybe in the pages you can't get. I feel like those print, and when you're talking to other people, when you read the words, there's just a different way you're digesting it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it is a personal preference. I've heard the opposite too, where some people need the book, they hate the Kindle, they're against the Kindle because it's like blasphemous, like as a reader, you know, within I mean, within that community, as I've heard it. So uh that's so interesting. What was the hardest change that you had to adapt to as you watch the industry do what it's done?

SPEAKER_00

Thinking about making a substack. Okay, substack is the thing now, it is, and I feel like it's not a bad move, but I think one when something is oversaturated already because everybody's flocking there, and then you're gonna be the new person, you're gonna automatically get crowded out. I see, and and then um the second thing I'd be worried about is subscriber numbers. If you're like if you really want to make a decent wage from it, you have to get people to sign up and agree to pay whatever tier of money you're asking them to pay. And one, I I don't feel good about doing that on like a personal basis. Um, but also it's just again with something like popular, it's just hard to do that. Like, how would you break through the noise of everybody else doing the exact same thing?

SPEAKER_02

Stand out.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's what you know the pivot to video is doing. Like everybody's trying to be a content creator now, everybody has to be like an influencer, maybe first in the work, second with some people. It depends on who you're looking at. But I mean, I'm not knocking it in any way. Like, I understand that's how things are are moving. It's just personally I'm not 100% comfortable with it.

SPEAKER_02

If you had it your way, you wouldn't be doing it. I completely understand that. Yeah, so today, success when it comes to anything print related kind of looks like Substack. It still looks like followers, it still looks like subscribers. You mentioned the Ariana Grande piece being something that was a hit for you. For anybody outside of the industry, break down what about that situation told you it was a success. Like how how did you know?

SPEAKER_00

Um, I don't recall the number off top of my head, but but it's numbers.

SPEAKER_02

That's what I'm getting at. It's numbers.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, numbers. Um interviewing a bigger artist versus a smaller artist nowadays is especially hard to get independent artists to get interviews in like paper, billboard. I mean, I think they don't do it because they do, it's just it's way more difficult than if you were gonna say, oh, like Pete Wentz from Fallout Boy wants to do a piece about like fashion snapped up like in two seconds, you know? Um, and I think sometimes the issue with that is the bigger bands don't need as much of the press as the smaller ones do, and then Spotify also crowds them out in terms of the bigger bands are put forth on like playlists, and the smaller bands are sometimes put on the bottom, and then there are so many new things coming out at the same time, it's hard for you to keep up, both as like a reporter and also as a listener. Yeah, I feel like it's just a wider issue of things just being fed into an algorithm and people listening and viewing things that kind of already uh are for their taste and not wanting to kind of break out of that. But at the same time, what I love about how things have changed with bands is that finally there's more diversity in the rock genre. Yes, especially as a biracial person from a very white area back in the 2000s and the nineties. I mean, kids today don't know that, I guess. It was very different to be, you know, not white and listening to what people call white music.

SPEAKER_02

Right. That's an interesting observation. So if you had grown up say in Harlem, or I I'm just I I don't know New York super, super well, but from the hip-hop knowledge I have, Harlem seemed to be, you know, a a place where a lot of it stems from. If you had grown up somewhere like there instead, maybe the tables would have turned.

SPEAKER_00

And maybe, but I think it's also a genre thing. I think back, you know, like 20, 25 years ago, there was a lot more gatekeeping in terms of who was able to be seen as a fan, um, especially when it came to girls and women, like were they even like allowed to be anything beyond like being seen as like a groupie or somebody who like just um or fans of pop music, right? Yeah, it's the same problem. Yeah, I think this one in the same problem of like it's not it's not taken seriously. Um and then also with bands of color, they don't get the same kind of press that white bands get. I mean, I think that's changing now, especially. Like, I love the paradox, the band that's basically endorsed by Travis Barker, and I love they got their number one finally. I was like, oh good. So I'm I think that's like a really great thing that's changing of like, okay, we're finally giving bands like that their due, but I'm like, this should have been happening 20 years ago. But yeah, you know, better late than never.

SPEAKER_02

I also think that the social media kind of has it's ironic, but I think social media has opened up avenues for other black creators, Latino creators, anything. It's opened up an avenue for them to speak on their own community. So it's it's it's almost easier for them to say, Well, this is what's happening in my world. I know I know this black artist because they're part of the community. You should know them too. So it's kind of it's kind of perpetuating itself, it's nurturing itself. Do you feel like you're seeing more of that?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah. No, I definitely see that. I follow all of these accounts that just like, you know, propel black artists and black artists who talk about their own experience or other artists that are non-white talking about, you know, um, they have to also play the content creator game, but they're just not getting the same kind of views that somebody else would, maybe. And I just think it's an eye-opening thing. If I think sometimes people outside the industry don't realize how much hard work it takes to get there. I mean, the social media thing is great because it means there's a lower barrier to entry. Like there are bands from TikTok who have gotten record deals. Like, I think that's fantastic. But at the same time, people think that's where things end and it's just starting.

SPEAKER_02

No, that's when now you have to keep up momentum. Like, I think when you said you know, lower the barrier, that's to me, that's the best way to put it. Like it's you you now now it's a little bit easier just to have access to play the game, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

But the problem is it's like when you open the box of Monopoly. When you start, now you can't stop if you want to continue to build that momentum, if you want to continue to grow that fan base, if you want to continue to get your stuff out there. Well, now we need to feed the algorithm. Now we need constant reassurance and validation and and and content for the algorithm to keep which I'm sure is a tiring thing to do. Exhausting, it's a full-time job.

SPEAKER_00

To kind of circle back to your question about how the print media has changed, it's that that I feel like writers now have to be content creators too and just constantly feed the algorithm and kind of prove their relevance.

SPEAKER_01

No, I hear you, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it it from my perspective, right? It could seem a little tiring to do because I want to like live my life in the real world. You know, I don't want to focus on work all the time, you know. I want to just kind of like post my stuff and go. You know, sometimes you don't want to have to like make a whole video talking about it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But at the same time, I understand it's where we're at now, you know. So it's kind of like you do it and then you just do do what you can, you know, do what fits within your life and then just move on. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Follow your moral compass too, most importantly. I I think that's most important for all of us. How so when it's time for a break, you feel that your nervous system is like out of whack and we we need a hot minute. What does taking a break look like for you? What do you like to do to relax?

SPEAKER_00

Watch a lot of Family Guy.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, it's early seasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear you.

SPEAKER_00

Who's your favorite character? Listen to a lot of in sync, obviously. Obviously. Um, I have coloring books, I have like my word surge, like I'm like 88, you know, like I have like all of my little hobbies I do to just like take like a brain break. Because with social media, what I love about it is that like it connects everybody, and then you like end up. I mean, there's so many people I've met from like across the world, I would never meet otherwise. There are all these like with you, with like these connections because Instagram is fantastic, but at the same time, it's just it can be overwhelming. Yeah, because it's just a deluge of not only news that's making you feel, you know, like anxious and on edge, it's just a constant push of what I think is a highlight reel of someone else's life. And if you kind of focus on that and then get into a sort of comparison trap, you're like, oh shit, I haven't done this, I haven't published that much, I haven't been doing that, you know, and then you just get caught up in this like mental spiral. Yes. You stay on it long enough, and I just don't want to do that to myself anymore, frankly. So I just like yeah, message my friends, look up some stuff, put it away. Touch grass. It's so wonders for my mental health. I'm on I'm on it like way less than I used to be.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you have to make those changes and and just and clock all those things that your body your body will tell you. Your body will give you signs when you're like when you are here. Just pay attention to it. It it unfortunately it takes a few times before you like get it. It takes a few times experiencing that uh excess stimulation, just that or just that overwhelm, that fear, that anxiety, whatever it is you want to call it, sometimes depression. Like whatever it is that you want to call it, it sometimes unfortunately it takes going through it three, four, five hundred times before you start to realize, oh, I need to be managing this better. I need to be managing my time with this better, my my energy with this better, all the above. Whenever you're writing, do you do you enter writer's block? And if you do, how do you get out of it?

SPEAKER_00

I have I've been working on a fiction novel for the first time of my life, which has been quite a roller coaster of an experience because it's so different from doing non-fiction, which is what I do all the time. Um, I just take a break, I close my laptop, I walk around, you know. I just like have to just be away from it for a little bit. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that's that's usually what helps. Or sometimes, especially if it's an interview, I just like go back through the tape like a bunch. And sometimes the way somebody says something, like I catch like a certain tone to their voice, or you know, I look at the Zoom video and then something just sparks. I'm like, okay, I could describe it this way, I could put this detail in, which kind of makes it not sound so question answer, question, answer, sort of.

SPEAKER_02

It's it's helpful to go back through and review all that. I had to do that regularly too. Regularly, but I like to. I mean. Sometimes it's just nostalgic and I like to do it for fun. And then other times, yeah, there is an element of professionalism to it. Like, okay, just make sure we've got all the T's crossed, I's dotted. Let's just make sure everything looks good and we feel like we're standing on business. Are you referring to the book that are you referring to the book that you're running on alternative rock music? Or is that something completely different?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's completely different. Doing like two different things. You're doing all the things.

SPEAKER_02

So tell me, tell me about that book.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, of course. Okay. So it's a sci-fi cult thriller where like a reporter gets caught up in investigating a band that's actually a cult.

SPEAKER_01

Oh.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. That's that's like the tagline, you know. Um and I said it in New York City because while I live here.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you know it.

SPEAKER_00

Right. I didn't want to, you know, do something like I want to sit it in Minnesota, but like I've but I've never been there. Right. You know, I I think there is something to the right what you know adage. Um but um yeah, with the alternative rock music one, I had two ideas and one didn't really take off, but the other one is better. It's more about the 2000s emo boom. Yes, my space it's shaped our generation's political leanings. Because I feel like people don't really look at that too much.

SPEAKER_02

No. Do you think it's wild that we're starting to hear, wait, Green Day is political?

SPEAKER_00

Because that's why we have a radicalized me in middle school, like that's why I think the way I do. American. Yes, that's like so many other people I talked to had so much to say about that. And before I knew it, it had like a whole proposal, like an outline. I'm like, okay, I can do this, you know. I mean, it's very um research heavy, but I love doing it. But like you feel like when you're talking about something you just are obsessed with, it's so much easier than trying to like force a you know square into a round hole.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I get what you mean. And then as a bonus, you've kind of already researched your subject in some ways. Yeah, you could you kind of already have, you've all you kind of already have done your homework and to to speak on it confidently. Um that's the way I would put it, just to just to be able to speak on it and like tell a friend and not feel like ooh, I don't know if I 100% got that right. No, you're out there, you know what you know. And I wonder if that has to do with your background in education, because I I noticed that you are educated, you have your master's in education, and yet after achieving that, you still went and started to pursue a music journalism and and writing about music. That's kind of a shift. So why the so why the shift?

SPEAKER_00

Oh god. I mean, I started out in undergrad wanting to be a teacher, actually, and then when I went to York, which is like a CUNY school in New York for undergrad, they didn't have a um program for middle school and high school teachers at the time. So I was like, I don't want to do elementary school. Um, but I knew the way to do that would be to get my master's, take the you know, ELA teacher licensing tests, and just do it that way. Um, but I took a journalism class in my sophomore year, and I was like, Well, I really love this, like shit, what do I do? You know? So I majored in English, but I minored in journalism, so I did both.

SPEAKER_02

I see.

SPEAKER_00

And I was like, I I don't know, like my mom wants me to do the teacher thing, like my aunt was a teacher, and like like that's like what we knew, you know. So, like, maybe I should finish this. So I did. I mean, I'm not gonna it was a great experience. I love Queen's College, I love my professors, I love learning about how other people learn and like trying to force high schoolers to read the books that they love. Like that's that must have been a challenge. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, some of them didn't want to read it, some of them were like, but can I watch the movie instead?

SPEAKER_02

You know, yeah, like it's not gonna be the same. Yeah, it makes me wonder if cliff notes are still a thing for them, too. Because that was what we use. We did the cliff notes. Yes, I I I think that's still a thing.

SPEAKER_00

I think maybe chat GPT should place that too at this point.

SPEAKER_02

I want yeah, I I wondered about that too. So uh we know that journalism and music, I mean anything creative really is full of rejection. And take me back to a moment where you got some criticism that like really bothered you. And how did you make sure that it wasn't going to sour that drive to keep going?

SPEAKER_00

God, pick like a one moment. I I feel like throughout the journey of just getting to this point, it's like riddled with rejection. I mean, even when you're writing a manuscript and you have to send it out to agents. So one so you get literary agent and then you shape it up again, and like you send it to publishers, and there's more rejection than that. I feel like people sometimes don't get that when you take a creative path in general, it's just riddled with rejection. Yeah. Um, but if I think back to one moment, it was when I was um covering the MTV VMAs in like 2020 or 2021, which was awesome, by the way. It was the one when MGK and Conor McGregor got into that fight on the red carpet, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it wasn't on my part of it, and everybody started telling me about like I saw it from like a distance. I didn't it wasn't wasn't in my my section. Um, but that was that was a lot of fun. But what was crazy about that was I'd never done an event like that. Um, and it had an editor, I'm not gonna mention any names, you know, with Ebony at the time. And um she didn't seem to believe in my ability to do this too much. Okay. I guess because I was new, I was a little over enthusiastic, but I was like, I think I can do it, you know. And um, I think it was the day before, excuse me. She sent me like an email just saying, you know, I don't think you're gonna do this right, but good luck, sort of. Uh and it lived in my head the whole night until I got there, and I was like, shit, I'm gonna mess this up, you know. Um turned out okay. I was fine. But um what was crazy about that was it's so fast-paced that everybody is just coming down the carpet like one after the other, and you have to be ready, you know, and you get maybe 60 seconds. So you can't really have like a list of like 10 questions for everybody. Maybe at best, you get three at best if you're gonna speak really fast. Yeah, yeah. So that was definitely a learning curve.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So and you kept going because you realized that that experience wasn't really all that bad. And then she what what she what she prophesized did not come true.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I thought, well, she was wrong, but I did fine. And um I I thought covering larger events like that was like a little bit of a fear of mine of like, oh god, you know, what if like I mess up in front of all these people, all other people are more experienced than I am. Like, what am I doing here? Kind of like imposter syndrome, kind of thinking.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But once I got through that, I was like, oh, I can do anything, you know. Um I went to Vegas. I mean, when we were young, please come back in 2027. I know. Went three times, loved it, covered it three times, like best experience of my life for like four days in Vegas. I don't gamble, but I just love walking to the casino anyway. Like it was great. Um, so that's why I said to myself, like, if I can do that, I can do this other stuff, you know, and have to actually like travel by myself and like get my own hotel room and make sure I'm not in the elevator with a creepy guy. And I'm like, you know, have my questions prepared and make sure everything is done on time.

SPEAKER_02

So there's a lot that goes into it. I and I know you mentioned previously that if you were to give advice to anybody on entering journalism or the music industry, and you know, any part of it, it is so important to learn the business portion of both and to know your music history. So, in other words, know your subject really well. Yes. And I'm curious about the history part, I'm curious about the history part of that question, and just want to know like how has knowing your history in either respect benefited you?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it informs the way I ask questions of other bands, especially ones that have inspired by like Nirvana or pre-grunge bands, of like how has that informed their sound, how has that informed the way they write their lyrics, how has that informed the instrumentation, you know? Like when I was um doing research on Green Day, and I found out a lot of what they do is inspired by the Ramones and like their like four-minute short, fast songs, you know. So I feel like knowing that kind of puts everything together in terms of okay, this is how they're doing stuff. But if like if I didn't have that kind of background, I'd be like, wait, this is I mean, I hate to say like it's it's not unoriginal because everything everything seems original when you first hear it. Like a lot of things are like a derivative of something else.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

But if you know that, then you could be like, okay, like this is how they're putting their spin on this thing that's been done before.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I feel like it just helps you understand where the band's coming from, what has shaped them, where they really want to go, maybe. And just I just think it's nice to know things like about the genre you're in. I just love finding out, you know, what makes this music so fantastic, who you know, made it what it is now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you're always curious about who it is behind the music, pun intended. Like who who we are. I I I mean, I watched all those episodes on VH1 for a reason too. Yeah, just be just because we're that curious. And what I'm taking away from what you're telling me now is that it's about the quality, like ever all the history that you've and knowledge that you've obtained has helped you to put out a better quality product inwards. So I love your kids' Instagram handle so much too. I have to check out.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Because you really literally are like the millionth Ashley I know. I don't know what parents were doing in the late 80s and early 90s.

SPEAKER_00

Like it's a very popular name. Plus, I grew up with uh what three other Ashley's in my neighborhood, and there were like two other ones in school with me. So it also comes from that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, two out of my three bridesmaids were Ashley. I'm like, I don't know, I don't know what's going on. Why do you think that name is so popular?

SPEAKER_01

I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Nobody names their kids Ashley anymore. I don't hear it. I hear a lot of Olivia though, yeah. A lot of Olivia or James, yeah, Jessica. I've heard a lot of that, but yeah, no more Ashleys, though. Maybe the last ones we can't let that happen.

SPEAKER_02

We cannot let the Ashley's go extinct. If nothing else for the callback to our era, and obviously we love a nostalgic moment. I definitely look back on the 90s and early 2000s fondly. You do too. So why don't we do a little bit of this or that 90s and early 2000s edition? Would you like to play? Okay. First up, we're gonna this is gonna be like the music portion of the program here. In sync or backstreet? In sync, 100%. I mean, my team is showing too.

unknown

Period.

SPEAKER_02

Is that because you thought they put out better quality music, or maybe you latched onto them first?

SPEAKER_00

I latched onto them first, but it came around to Backstreet later. I have all of their albums. I love Kevin Richardson. I wanted to go to the Red Sea in Vegas, but it was sold out.

SPEAKER_02

Uh no, I'm uh the same route for me. I I think I I grew a fondness for instinct because that they were who I latched on to first. And going back, I was like, wait, Backstreet really wasn't that bad.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

What was my deal?

SPEAKER_00

Like, what were you a 98 degrees girly? Because I was too that was a degree.

SPEAKER_02

You know, I I started to be, and then I got really mad when some of the contestants on Love is Blind had no idea who Nick Lachey was. I was like, excuse me, put some respect on Nick Lachey's neck, right? Like, and to see him and Vanessa on like give me CRL come through TR. Exactly. Like, it's so uh it's like it's come full circle. That that will forever be funny to me. Um, so back to this or that MM or 50 cent.

SPEAKER_00

Uh 50 cent. I think MM first, and I was like, wait, 50 Cent just sounds yeah, tougher to me. Like there was like a you seemed cool in the way that MM didn't to me at the time. I don't know. You know, if you ask me this it kind of when I got older with MM, I wasn't really listening to it at first, but the whole thing with like you want to kill your mom kind of weirded me out. I was like, I can't listen to this anymore. And the sound effects, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

No, I hear you. I I that was a little bit uncomfortable for me at first, but if you had asked me this question in 2003, I might have said MM purely because of 8 mm, purely, yeah, purely because of the movie and the soundtrack. But if you asked me today, I would say 50 purely because we love a petty 50. We we are here for a petty, he is in his petty era. Oh and I I am all for it. How about this one? This one's a little bit more of a deep dive. Ashanti or Sierra? Oh, I know so hard.

SPEAKER_00

Ashanti.

SPEAKER_02

Me too. Her voice, so soulful.

SPEAKER_00

And yeah, my mom loved Ashanti. She got me her first album, and I was like, she is so beautiful. Who is she? She's gorgeous.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, they're both beautiful, really. Yeah, they're both dancing. Yeah, this is this is the way that I view them. Uh Ashanti to me always had the vocal Sierra can move. Sierra's a dancer, you can't, so it's kind of apples to oranges in some ways. That's kind of how I feel about those two. Brandy or Monica.

SPEAKER_00

Give me all the hard ones.

SPEAKER_02

I know.

SPEAKER_00

I got into Brandy first. I'm gonna say Brandy. Plus, I loved her um Malicia. I was like obsessed with that show.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, me too. Same reasons. How about Beyonce or Aaliyah?

SPEAKER_00

You know, I'm gonna go Aaliyah.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like Aaliyah would have been, and you could argue that in some ways she was when she was alive. I think she would have been at the same level of success. I think we could see Beyonce at now, you know what I mean? Like, not that they weren't successful at the time that they both were on this earth, but like that's that's what I'm saying. I think Aaliyah's success would have been equal to or possibly surpassed what we know of Beyonce today.

SPEAKER_00

If she were I agree, I agree, even though I did love Cowboy Carter, and I wrote a whole episode for a PBS about hero album. So yeah, I think I do love Beyonce.

SPEAKER_02

Do we think? I mean, we know Renaissance is gonna be a trilogy. Do we think rock is the next era she's gonna step into? Because that's what I'm hoping.

SPEAKER_00

I hope so. I know I'm crossing my fingers for that. I I really hope so. It blew my mind when I found out that uh Mariah Carey had like a secret grunge rock album that nobody ever heard.

SPEAKER_02

Hmm, okay, I didn't even know that.

SPEAKER_00

Like, I'm curious, but it just I guess didn't go anywhere, or she didn't want to pursue that direction. But I was like, Oh, that's that's different.

SPEAKER_02

She should release it.

SPEAKER_00

I would like her. I think everybody was like, please release it. I don't know if she's done that or not.

SPEAKER_02

How about this one? Britney or Christina? Christina, Christina, and again, I think that's the same case as it was with Ashanti and Sierra. One's a dancer, one's got the vocals. Apples, you know, apples and oranges completely. How about this one? This one might be tougher for you too. MCR or Fallout Boy.

SPEAKER_00

Don't do this to me.

SPEAKER_02

I can't. Oh man. That's so hard. I'm going MCR just because I need to represent the pale, dark-haired ones in the audience.

SPEAKER_00

I respect that.

SPEAKER_02

I think so.

SPEAKER_00

I think that I did develop a kinship with I I love Pete Wentz. I love Fallout Board or like everything, but my chemical romance. I'm sometimes I saw them at MetLife last summer. Beautiful and I cried.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, there is something healing about that. Like everybody buying tickets to Hillary Duff right now, they're saying the same thing, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Come clean in 2026.

SPEAKER_02

Are you joking?

SPEAKER_00

Right. Come through, OC.

SPEAKER_02

Come through, look good at the beach, Hills, all the above. Well, Hills isn't a Tasha Benny film. But that it's God, there's so many good moments in that era. Okay, another last music edition. Good Charlotte or Blink 182?

SPEAKER_00

Blink 182.

SPEAKER_02

Really? I'm gonna go good Charlotte. I'm going good Charlotte. And and again, probably because they were who I latched on to first. They're very the audiences are similar, I get it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

To me, I I think I just appreciate that the Madden brothers tend to take their craft a little bit more seriously. Blink 182 or like dad jokes all the time.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I love about it though. See, I love that it's a matter of serious.

SPEAKER_02

It's a matter it is, you're right. Exactly. It's a matter of taste. If it's a matter of taste, if you're looking for something that is not so serious, blink is the way to go. If you're looking for something that's a little bit more serious, probably good Charlotte. You know, I just I I I love them both, but it's interesting to watch both of them and what they've done since early 2000s when we were first getting together.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, I love that these bands have been around for 25 plus years and they're still very much relevant. Because so many bands don't last nearly that long. No, they don't a testament to the not only just the power of music, but their lyricism and just their ability to you know keep up with the times and keep up with the fans, like grow up with us, not just like necessarily stay exactly the same, and their relationship among each other, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

To to say, okay, I still want to do this with these same guys in those games, like really for for as for decades and as long as they have. Let's go a little bit more general. How about Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network?

SPEAKER_00

Cartoon Network. I was a huge cartoon network kid, as you know. Um Johnny Bravo, yeah, yeah, love that show. Um, yeah, Powerpuff Girls, they have uh you can't see it probably, but there's like a that is that Buttercup?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it is Buttercup. Okay, there is Buttercup. She was always mine too, probably because the hair. It was the same thing, like I don't know why, but I think the thought process was the same whenever you were assigned like your spice girl at a sleepover. It was purely based on the hair, it was purely based on the hair. That was it. I was always popular.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I was scary spice because all the time, you know, Mel B, and I understand that. Right. Um I think I was assigned buttercup a lot because I was a tomboy growing up, like, oh well makes sense about Ashley, like she's like a buttercup, so now she's here forever. Like, okay, I'm fine with that. How about AIM or MySpace? Um, I spent a lot more time on MySpace, but I loved AI though.

SPEAKER_02

I spent a lot of time on both, but there is something so satisfying to seeing that orange you have a new friend request, yeah, lettering and that like little alert. Like, there is something after like a long day at school, there's something so satisfying about coming home to see that. I don't know why, but it was hilarious.

SPEAKER_00

We loved it in the top eight. You have to fight people, those you could be in somebody else's really great.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, everybody's trying to read into it. Like, we learned to code like our own pages.

SPEAKER_00

Like, that was very cool.

SPEAKER_02

We did, and it was like I don't know. I I I should brush up on those skills to be honest with you. I probably probably could use them. How about the Sims or Roller Coaster Tycoon?

SPEAKER_00

Roller coaster tycoon, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I don't know the shuttle loop and like launching your P off of it. Yeah, yeah. Just to see what would happen. Um, I mean you could do that with both games, really, but there's just they're fun, they're both fun. How about flip phone or a slider?

SPEAKER_00

I had both. I like the slider because uh I had um the sidekick. It to kick it out.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And the T9 and yeah, I thought that was really cool.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I wanted that because Parasultan had it, but we we we were not on that budget. We were not on that budget at all.

SPEAKER_00

But see, I I I also wanted that because for the same thinking.

SPEAKER_02

Right? We were like, oh, I guess if she's doing it, this is what we're supposed to be doing.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

We really were. How about Digimon or Pokemon?

SPEAKER_00

Pokemon.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, always. I still played Pokemon Go. Like oh, same. Like what it I know it to me, like came back, so to speak, like 10 years ago, and I was obsessed with it when it came came back. And now I'm like, I still want to play. I still want to play all the time. Rapid Ash was my favorite Pokemon. So good. Did you have a favorite Pokemon?

SPEAKER_00

Charizard was my favorite. I don't know why. I couldn't tell you why. Just like picked one. I was like, oh, I like that one.

SPEAKER_02

It's something about the fire ones. Like, even when I had it on Game Boy, I played Pokemon Red. Like I just wanted to do it. How about Blockbuster or Netflix?

SPEAKER_00

Uh I really miss Blockbuster. I mean, I have Netflix, but I I love just going with my mom and we go through like every movie aisle. And like, I don't know how your parents were, but my mom didn't really care about me seeing rated R stuff. She would just like cover my eyes during like the stack scenes. Like, you don't have to see those.

SPEAKER_02

You know, mine, my mom was pretty strict. I don't know that my dad cared as much. And she was also weird. Like, she was also a little bit weird about anything that horror, anything that could have been presumed witchcraft. Like, she didn't want to be reading Harry Potter. Guess who read it in the school library anyway? Me. Like, it didn't matter. Like, but she was a little bit, I think, more worried about that than the violence. And I think she was a little bit worried about sex too. But for the most, but then again, I got to watch Ace Ventura and I'm 10 years old.

SPEAKER_00

I was gonna say, it's my favorite movie still.

SPEAKER_02

Who, yeah, detective.

SPEAKER_00

I love that one.

SPEAKER_02

I don't know. But then she had a problem with Are You Afraid of the Dark on Nick. So it's just I like I I I don't get it. And mom, if she's listening, she's probably laughing at this, going, Oh, it was not that serious. She probably didn't think it was that serious, but I did because I was like, I was the kind of kid where I only needed to be told once, and I got the message. I was like, Oh, okay, like they're they're not happy, but yeah, same.

SPEAKER_00

I'm like, Oh, mom doesn't want me to do this. My dad's not all right, I'm not gonna kid this.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Like, okay, I guess I really don't want that much of a problem. We're good kids, it's hilarious. It's yeah, it was a good idea.

SPEAKER_00

You never get into trouble, like ever.

SPEAKER_02

No, and watching the change in Netflix too, even over the last 20 years. Like, we don't do the mail in DVDs anymore.

SPEAKER_00

No, that's like just watching that, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That change has been crazy to watch too.

SPEAKER_00

What I hate about Netflix is there's so there's too much choice. Like, I spent too much time like selecting what I want to watch, actually, watching something. Like the thing I've been watching, I watched a little bit of it yesterday. Blue Therapy. It's like that new therapy show for the couples who are going to this therapist. I forgot where it's located on Netflix. I don't know. It satisfies this need to like be nosy about other people's lobbies for me.

SPEAKER_02

It does that's my housewives. That's my housewives. Shout out, Atomic, shut up, Beverly Hills, shout out like all of them. Like, they're yeah, it there's something about basketball wives, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um I am a huge 90-day fiance. It's been a minute since I've watched 90 day, but I have before, and there's some, I mean, iconic it's very messy, and I love like the messier it is, the better because it's not you and you're not involved.

SPEAKER_02

That's why exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Well, thank you for playing my silly little game. Kind of on the same subject, though. Did I read something about you working on a boys to men book? Do I have that right? Yes. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_00

So this fantastic journalist, John Morrison, if you're watching, hey, um, just needed somebody to, you know, write a uh foreword for it. And I'm like, yeah, sure. You know, because the publishing company that was, you know, was looking for somebody, and I was like, Yeah, sure. Like, I love boys to men. Like, yes, NSYNC was the entry point, but my mom played a lot of boys to men.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we all listened to it, yes.

SPEAKER_00

My granny loved it, she's from Trinidad, and she was like, love these boys, but they're like her sons. So, you know, like I was raised on like everything pop. Um, I think they didn't get as much fame as they should have back in the day. They're crowded out by Nink. Really? And the back. I I feel I feel like that's what happened. I mean, I think I mean I love that they're still performing now, but I think they could have been bigger. They could have been bigger.

SPEAKER_02

See, okay, and I I'm glad we're talking about this because I have always wanted the black perspective on that. Like, I've I've I've always wanted to know like, is Boys to Men bigger in the community than somebody like InSync or Backstreet? And yes, you're right, those timelines did overlap, which which is what made me curious.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I can't, you know, speak for everybody else, but I guess it depended on who you were talking to. Like on, you know, my mom's side of family, boys to men all day. You know. Yeah. But in my neighborhood, it was definitely like not boys to men. Everybody was about at least one of the NSYN, you know, members or Backstreet Boys, and they were all out at the same time. Yeah. But I remember Netflix did this really interesting. Maybe you should watch it. I forgot what it was called. Documentary about that time period. And they got somebody from Boys to Men on, and he was talking about how part of that why they weren't maybe as accepted as NSINC and actually boys were was because of race.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, systemic racism.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And part of it being that, like um, you know, uh, white families didn't want posters. Black men on their daughter's walls as opposed to, you know, and sync and 98 degrees and so forth. But also, if you look at like the way they dressed back then, especially like 98 degrees and certain and sync eras, is kind of copying boys to men a little bit.

SPEAKER_02

I see that the the white, the open t-shirts, or yeah, the yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The oversized, you know. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I can see that.

SPEAKER_00

I was like, oh, but I never noticed that before. I was like, well, that's interesting. So you know, I I felt like it was definitely maybe about packaging, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02

I see. It makes total sense. I I've always wanted the same thing too. I've always taken note of the same thing too. So, what is next for you, and what can we look forward to coming from you? We hit on some books. Is there more in addition to that?

SPEAKER_00

Trying to get my books published mostly. Um, I'm interviewing From Ashes to New for New Noise. But tomorrow they're a new metal band. You know, I I love them personally. It's like to me, it's kind of like a it probably won't like that, but it's like a modern day Lincoln Park because it everyone wants to have their own thing, so nobody wants to be compared. But like to me, it's what it reminds me of. Um and Detray you.

SPEAKER_02

Very cool.

SPEAKER_00

I know I've listened to them since like middle school, so I was like, oh, I get to talk to them and do that thing. I mean, I think that's the thing that keeps you going sometimes. Of like you just get to do the stuff that like when you're a little kid, you're like, I want to do that, but I don't know how to how to get there. You know, I mean you wish it was more sustainable on like a more like long-term basis. But right, right. I think it's what keeps me going in it.

SPEAKER_02

The joy.

SPEAKER_00

What else am I doing? Um, I am taking an entertainment law class.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, lawyer. Okay. Is it is that maybe on the horizon?

SPEAKER_00

Maybe it's very difficult. It's very like reading heavy, and I wasn't expecting that. Um I mean, I I just always like to kind of learn how things work and try to like expand. I mean, I love writing, I love journalism, but I see a little bit like the writing on the wall.

SPEAKER_02

I felt you know what in radio I felt the same way. I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_00

And I feel like I have to sort of like expand a little bit, you know. So I've been working more towards like screenwriting stuff. Um, PBS wants me to do stuff, so that's great.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know, um thinking about maybe like a college course maybe next year, because I still do have my teaching license, you know, you can still use it for something because I love that there are still people who want to do this, which is great. And I always think it's really good to try to, you know, inspire next generation so we're not like the last ones doing this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But like doing it in a way that honors the music and honors the artists in that you're not just asking questions for like a sound bite, you know. I mean, I feel like that's what's kind of been happening in journalism a little bit, is that everybody's kind of looking for like a soundbite, and I'm like, I don't think that's the way to do it. Yeah, I don't feel uh I don't feel like you get real answers that way. You don't have you know real conversations that way, you know.

SPEAKER_02

That was gonna be my key word conversation. That's that if you feel like you're having a conversation, that's your sign that you've had a a a good interview, in my opinion, or at least at the very least, a decent one.

SPEAKER_00

I agree.

SPEAKER_02

If you walk away feeling that way, that's a good sign.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like when I first started doing this stuff, I was so nervous. Yes, most of it was on Zoom because it was during the pandemic. My hands were like shaking the whole time. I was just like very nervous, and this person can tell I was like very nervous, and I had like my list of questions, and I wouldn't really deviate from it. But now that I've had years of experience with like different things go on, I just know I pretty much just have like bullet points now to kind of shape what the larger conversation is gonna be about, and it just goes where it goes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you're leaving room for that flexibility, yeah, leaving room for follow-up.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, if you really want to get specific, like also just leaving room for something to go in a complete different direction, be like, oh, I didn't know that, or oh, it's inspired by this, and that's a whole other angle. You just have to let it flow, you know. That's always my my tip. But when you're a shy person, like I kind of am. I think I'm less shy now, but you know, I was when I was a kid for sure.

SPEAKER_02

It could be difficult. You were when you were a kid, you were shy. Really? I can't see that now, but that's because I know you're older.

SPEAKER_00

But right, yeah. I mean, I had friends, but it wasn't like I wasn't like popular or like that or anything, and I was always kind of like, I don't want to be in a big group.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, were you afraid of introducing yourself to somebody else?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. I was whenever there would be some activity where somebody would say, We're gonna sit in a circle, yeah, and everyone has to say something, you know, fun about themselves. I would forget everything that would make me fun. I would forget, I would just be very nervous. I mean, even like on dates, I hate it when men ask me that. I hate that because I'm like, we can just talk and you can just find out organically, you know.

SPEAKER_02

I don't have to I don't have like a good on-the-spot answer, I feel like that would be so surprising for somebody else to learn because if so for anybody that would imagine a date with somebody like us, they think you interview people for a living, of course, you're gonna be able to keep a first date conversation going. They're always the most awkward. You're gonna be the one that keeps the conversation flowing. Uh, not always. You'd be surprised at how many of us really are introverts, and like or or at the very least, we're a lot more careful and thoughtful with yeah, when we spend this energy. And this like this is us on camera, or this is us when we're doing our job. This doesn't right always mean this is us outside of that.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. Thank you. I feel like people don't understand that. It's like you have two separate selves. This is your professional self, and then Val off-camera is somebody different, maybe. Yeah, you know, I will stand my health. Okay, right, you know, like you don't have to be on, you know, all the time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Give me a full season of Housewives at Beverly Hills and a bag of ruffles, and home, I'm home for a weekend. I don't care. Exactly. Like, I you know, like it's it, but it's so funny because everybody else would have the opposite perception.

SPEAKER_00

And the oh, I'm sure if you ask my friends, they'd be like, Oh, Ashley's like outgoing, and she just talks in. I mean, yeah, I know, like I can talk to anybody, I guess, but like if it's not a professional situation, it takes me a while to get there. Yeah, you know, to feel comfortable enough to talk to you, you know, and I feel like some people just don't have that kind of patience.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's the key word, patience. Can they receive it? Can they not receive it? I completely understand. Well, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00

Or I was thinking about this because I was at this um TV premiere event for Peacock, Ted, Seth McFarlane.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, that was fun. I saw that on Instagram.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, loved the premiere event, it was a lot of fun. It was like bowling and all these like bar games, and you got to like bowl against strangers, and I suck. Bowling's all me too.

SPEAKER_02

I'm lucky if I break a hundred in a game.

SPEAKER_00

Um there was this guy there, and he was just so aggressive at all, like bitting on me. Oh, hitting on you. I thought he meant competitive because he was saying, you know, like, let me teach you how to bowl and this and that.

SPEAKER_02

Why is there always one? Every time I go bowl, like always one. It's like, sir, nobody asked you, have several right.

SPEAKER_00

I was like, oh, it's my friend already, one of my guy friends already teaching me how to do that. And I was like, Oh, okay, so I don't like curve my hand like like this, you know, like so I don't do that, and um, he just wouldn't leave me alone, and then he was saying to me, because I was mentioning somebody else, I guess, within his vicinity of like, oh, I interview musicians too, whatever. And he's like, Oh, so do I. And he gets his phone out and he shoves it like near my face, and it's him with like a hand puppet.

SPEAKER_02

No joke, a hand puppet, like a Muppet sort of, and those are his interviews, air quotes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and he's like accosting celebrities outside of someplace of like this hand puppet.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, it's just like so how was your day? Wow, like just like stuff like that. This is some Kanye level delusion, you know.

SPEAKER_00

And I was like, it was it was very it was very weird. Um, and I did not want to talk to this man, and this man wanted to talk to me anyway. So he he eventually like left me alone, but it was like a little, it was a little much.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I yeah, that that is a lot. It didn't sour the Ted event though, it sounds like you still walked away from that.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, I still had a great time, it's just this one person. Um or I love how you said like media experiences. So I it was my want to say second time, I think, covering the when we were young festival in Vegas. And there was this guy who was in the press tent. I don't, you know, I don't know who everybody is because everybody comes from all over the country to cover this stuff. You assume they have access, right? Yeah, and he's just very drunk in the press tent. Oh boy, he's just looking at me and he says, What's your ring size? What and I was like, What? Like, what does that mean? And he was like, You look like you can be my my future ex-wife. Like, what's your ring?

SPEAKER_02

That's tired.

SPEAKER_00

And he's just like looking at my chest, not looking at me, and I'm like, Who is this person? And then one of my other friends noticed who was covering this festival. Also, this guy doesn't seem to know anybody. He just like he just ended up back there, yeah. And somebody kicked him out, and it was just very creepy.

SPEAKER_02

Oh god, that's why you know, whenever to avoid situations like the one you're talking about, because I've I've been in somewhat similar ones too. That's why staying in groups, like staying in groups, staying in groups was my go-to, just to avoid or or definitely, and I I wish I didn't have to make it about gender, but sometimes when uh an especially aggressive man, not all men, an especially aggressive man won't take a hint, sometimes it does help to have another guy around you. Yes, because I don't uh just it does something. I don't know. I it's like these are like two will to be on a safari and they don't want to like challenge each other or something. Like there's some sort of message that gets across more clearly and concisely in that scenario than if I were to say no and I was by myself.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And I know I know you've run that into that too. It's it's it's important to stay safe, and I think that's one of the ways to do it.

SPEAKER_00

Sure. Or just men that are also excuse me, in the business, and they just assume you don't know enough to be here. Oh, we've dealt with the massage, or you're uh groupie and that's why you're here. You know, I I've had that come up as well, and that's I've like in 2026, we're still seeing the stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Right. And I I again with those, I've just had to uh keep my nose down and and focus on whatever it is I'm doing. I always assume that look, my work is gonna speak for itself. And if and if it and if my work won't do it, my consistency will. I'm not going anywhere. So you can do what you want with that information, is kind of what I it it took me a minute to figure that out. Like especially when and I think this is something that you just learn with age too. You start to look at the men doing this, and uh most of the time, some of the time, they're older than you, a lot older than you. And you have to sit back and kind of like look at the facts around that too, and go, you know, this man has such little going on in his life that he's focused on me. Right. And he's got teenage daughters, yeah. And I hope to God he's not talking to them the same way or teaching them the same things. So my point is once you start to clock how just horrible that human is, then you're able to kind of like let a little bit of that go. Like, oh, okay, whatever they say, irrelevant. I wouldn't, I I wouldn't even bother with you if we were outside of here right now. Like I I would I period. Like, if I wouldn't hang out with you on my personal time, I really shouldn't put that much stock in your opinion anyway.

SPEAKER_00

It's that simple. Yeah, and that just takes time to figure out. I mean, I feel like um in my 20s, I really started this when I was like 25, 26-ish. Um, but I was trying to get into this a little bit before that. I feel like I was more malleable in terms of absorbing those kinds of thoughts and making internalizing them and being like, oh well, you know, or thinking, or like thinking, like, oh, maybe if I flirt a little bit, but no, it's not going anywhere, that's gonna like get me something. Um, and all that did was get me into flip. Like, that was not a good or leave you. Maybe like sometimes when you see, I don't know, like just when you're younger and you see older men responding in a certain way to people who react like that, and you're just kind of learning about how this works on your own, you're like, oh, that's what I should be doing, you know, even if it doesn't really feel morally sound to you, you know. Um, but that's not a good idea, it's never a good idea.

SPEAKER_02

No, no.

SPEAKER_00

Um what I like to do now is one if it's on Zoom, it's on Zoom, nobody's physically um, but if it's an in person thing, I try to make sure that's at least like a publicist, uh manager, somebody else in the vicinity of this. So this person doesn't feel like it's like A day it didn't consent to going on because that's happened before too. Um, and also that there's no alcohol involved because I'm not getting drunk with you, and now we're gonna this is gonna go into a direction I don't feel comfortable with, or just not doing it you know doing an interview in like somebody's trailer or you know, like the green room or like I I don't know, like I I'm good with that. Like I don't I don't have to go back there, like I'm fine. Yeah, I could just like stay here.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you learn a lot, and uh hopefully, and and I think we have done this, sharing all this will help anybody listening as they're trying to enter the industry or do something similar to what you and I do because I I wish that I had heard some of this when I was that age, like when I was coming out of college, you know, 22, 23, my first radio job, entering the radio industry for the first time. I wish I knew some of this. I wish I did, you know, and I wish I understood. And I uh I also kind of wish that I knew it's just not that deep. Enjoy it, enjoy it, enjoy, enjoy what you do because ultimately you're there in the first place because you love the act of doing it, right? That that is undisputed. I I thank you so much for all of your knowledge and all of the vulnerability that you shared with us this episode. Ashley, thank you so much. Thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, of course, you're welcome, Val. I really love this conversation. Um, yeah, to all the younger people out there, please continue to do what we do. We have a lot of great advice if you ever need it. But this was a great experience. I would love to come on again.

SPEAKER_02

Of course, yeah, yeah. When the books are out, we'll talk for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Oh god, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

When the but when the we're gonna put that out there when the books are out, you're gonna come back. We'll check in then. Manifesting, yes.