Vigorously with Val Kleinhans
Welcome to Vigorously with Val Kleinhans—where music meets perspective, personality, and honest conversation with vigor.
Through interviews, solo reflections, and commentary on artist news, Val Kleinhans explores the psychology of creativity, the pressure of visibility, and what modern music culture is doing to artists and fans behind the scenes.
New episodes drop weekly with effort, energy, and enthusiasm—let’s chat vigorously.
Inquiries: val.kleinhans@gmail.com
Vigorously with Val Kleinhans
Who They Fear on Doing the Work That Actually Scares Us
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If you're a band trying to blow up, this is the episode you need to listen to.
Is there a reason that there's such a focus on lead singers? Or, is that strategic branding? What is the best way to market and book your band?
Mikey Dunn of Who They Fear chats about balancing booking as a booking agent, the current climate of the music industry, doing the work when you don't feel like doing it, and Maryland metalcore.
Be ready for WHITEOUT: https://open.spotify.com/artist/6v4tmKaFpasiRSLDxmwrle?si=ViGoo-GgSRWPBTPo1hpBuA
Get more Val at https://valkleinhans.com/
I don't know. I feel like not just music, but I feel like the world is fine, vigorously.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to another edition of Vigorously with me, Val Cline Hands, chasing our fears, getting into our fears in this episode. I feel that that is the vibe going into this. I am thrilled to have Mikey Dunn in the building from Who They Fear. How are you, sir? Welcome.
SPEAKER_01I'm doing great. How are you doing? Thanks so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00I'm thrilled to have you because I I want to get into a lot. This episode, I know we're allowed to get deep. I've I've looked at the lyrics, I've heard it, and I'm like, this is a group that is not afraid to get deep. So, but I really more than anything have an itch to scratch. I want to be corny and just ask this first. What is your biggest fear? Um, funny enough, heights. Fight? Like actually Heights. Oh, heights. Okay.
SPEAKER_01You're like, I'll fight somebody all day, but give me a clip. No, no, I mean, fighting's nothing. I mean, that that's that's fine. My problem is, is like I love like you know, amusement parks and like I love um different attractions that have you up high. But the minute I'm on something where you're like stationary, like you're either like on a glass floor, or you're like looking over a canyon and you see like how far down it is, that is like nope, I'm good.
SPEAKER_00You just see all the ways it could go wrong, and that's what's scary. I yeah, all the limbs that could possibly break. That's what that's what goes through my mind, too.
SPEAKER_01It's like we're such fragile like creations that like to me, I'm like, man, even if I drop 10 feet, I'm done. Like, I'm I'm almost 30. My body can't even handle a some a simple drop from like a child's slide, and now you're trying to have me jump off of like something over five feet. Nope, I'm good. I'm fine.
SPEAKER_00Uh-uh. We need our legs, Lieutenant Dan.
SPEAKER_01We need gravity is not my friend. We're we're good.
SPEAKER_00For me, it's snakes. Like I heights, uh I'm okay, but like snakes, uh-uh. They're my problem with them is they're the only animal that I cannot suss out whether they're pissed or not. Before too late. Before it's too late, you know what I mean? Like before, before they want to like act on that emotion. That's my problem with them. A dog, you could tell, a cat, you could tell. Most animals, you could tell. That's my problem with those slithery little spawns of Satan. I can't have that.
SPEAKER_01I mean, honestly, if I was to have like a sub-fear, I I'd say it'd probably be either like snakes to like spiders, like things that are kind of kind of the the fear of like not knowing what is exactly like poisonous and what their thoughts are, because one bite and you're done.
SPEAKER_00So it's like yeah, yeah, and then there's the element of surprise too, because you're going you think you're just hiking on a lovely little Sunday afternoon, and like things just things just go wrong. That that is what terrified me. That terrified me hiking into Badlands, but thankfully we didn't run into anything, everything was good. Well, I mean, so sometimes I know there's a lot of chatter about AI lately, particularly in music and just in general, because we've embraced it fully now. And regardless of how you feel about it, it it is here and it is a little bit spooky, but I thought I'd maybe have a little bit of fun with it if you're cool with this. We're gonna play a little game called Is AI Accurate? Because I Googled Who They Fear and they did give me an AI summary. So you can you can tell me how accurate this summary really is, and you can correct any any inconsistencies or falsities. Who they fear. Yeah, this is what they say. Who they fear is a four-piece modern metal core band based in Maryland, known for blending heavy instrumentals, aggressive vocals, and melodic hooks. They are active in the mid-Atlantic metal scene, having released tracks like Visions and Equinox with a sound characterized as emotionally honest and reflective. Key details, location, Frederick, Baltimore, Maryland. Genre, modern metal core, members, often noted for working with producers like Jacob Lizette and Hayden Calhoun. Style balances heavy breakdowns with melodic, atmospheric, and emotional elements, associated acts and shows. They've got you partnered with some people. They have shared the stage with notable acts, including a skylit drive, crown the empire, Velomea, Gideon, and famous last words. So how did it do?
SPEAKER_01I mean, that that's 100% spot on. So yeah, that it literally, I think it all there was, I think it just read my Spotify bio. Oh, yeah, but that that's like that's that's pretty spot on, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, so does the inclusion of AI in music and the way we've embraced it, the more frequently that we're coming across it and seeing it, does it scare you, or is it something that you just look at and say, Man, I think I just need to maybe learn how to work with it?
SPEAKER_01So it's weird because uh just recently we were having um some allegations about using AI in our music. When when we don't, we we've never used it. Um, I will admit there's been times where I've used it um for like concept arts and gone to like artists and been like, here's kind of like what I'm thinking. Could you make something original off of this idea? Um, but you know, we had a ton of people coming at us thinking that Dead Dreaming 2 was like an AI song, and I'm like, I don't know where you're getting that from. There's no way AI could create the way these instrumentals sound. Um, so it was like really strange, uh especially because we've played it live several times now. So it was like really weird to have live videos up, and then people are like, Oh, you're an AI band, and I'm like, we literally just played last night. What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_00You saw us in person, we are real human beings, and also I'm sorry, somebody only somebody with depression, anxiety, any of the sort could write, What if my life was never what I wanted it to be? And has actually pondered that existential crisis fully. Like, AI can't do that.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it can try, but it'll probably sound janky. Um, I mean, with AI and music, so I'm not as bad with it as other people are. I know there's so many people out there that are just like, oh, AI bad, and I'm like, you know, we're at the point now where sadly, AI musicians, AI music, AI this, AI that, I, AI content, films, things like that, people are just making so much money off of it. They're just getting by in all these different industries, getting famous, getting bigger than anyone who's doing it legit. And it kind of comes down to like I get the the issues, I get the problems, and I definitely don't want to use it myself. But at the same time, it's kind of something we can't control. It's just happening, it's it's gonna happen. So, unless like the entire market crashes and everyone moves on from it, which will probably happen because people move like like time moves rapidly and people move on from shit so fast. Yeah, um, I don't see it lasting, but at the end of the day, you know, I I've been doing this for almost five years. We're finally getting traction now, we're finally taking off, got a record deal, got incredible shows, we're finally doing something, but I probably still have another like five or so years before I actually reach like the level of this being like a real, real career and real thing. Whereas I see people making AI music, releasing it, and within a year becoming like literally, you know, wealthy off of just dropping constant AI music. Um, and it's like it's something where you can bitch and complain all you want online, but unless something is done about it, it's just gonna keep happening. So it's either you like learn to kind of adapt around it and maybe better yourself off of it as like creating opportunities off of other people's you know, slop, or you kind of just join the crowd, which no one ever wants to do, and I don't I don't recommend it, but at the end of the day with AI, I I think a lot of people just don't realize how within the next probably two, three, four years, that's probably gonna be the whole landscape, and it's gonna be kind of hard not to be involved with it. Um, because you can't tell, like not right now, yeah. It's really you can you can tell when there's AI songs, like when things are like fully produced by AI, but you have no way of telling if an artist used Chat GPT for lyrics, you have no idea of knowing if someone actually used AI for uh cover arts because there's so many artists out there that I've talked to that they create something with AI and then they take it in the Photoshop and they just like originality it, like they just go over top of it and make their own thing out of it, but they still used the original AI art to even get to where they want to be with their image. So, like it's just something where like as an artist and uh seeing this landscape, you have no clue who's using it, what's going on. Your favorite band in the world right now, you know, you could be listening to Bad Omens, Bear Tooth, um, Dayseeker, you have no clue what they're doing behind the scenes. All you know is that there are these big bands playing these crazy shows and dropping insanely popular music, and you have no way of knowing. So that that's kind of where I stand with AI is it's that we're at the point now where it's very, very much a stealthy tool to where people can take advantage of it and get away with it, and there's nothing you can do about it. So it's up to you to either a be better than it with your own originality, or join because people are just doing more than you're doing at a faster rate because they could just type in a caption and boom, they have something that takes you six months.
SPEAKER_00Right. Or stand 10 toes down completely and outright refuse it in every way possible. And in in the hopes that maybe that gives the big wigs making these decisions to implement it everywhere, you know, give them the hint that okay, maybe consumers aren't into this, so we're gonna put it out less and less and less because it definitely does feel like we weren't given a choice. Like it does feel like it just popped up. Here it is, it is now our customer service representative, it is now our proofreader, it is now our grammar check, like it is everywhere, and we didn't ask for it.
SPEAKER_01Nope. Spooky, scary, it's just forced on you. And the funny part is is that with all the people that complain about AI, the same thing happened with social media. If you remember back in the early 2010s when Metalcore was popping off this genre, specifically with you know, Ask Alexandria, Memphis Mayfire, all those bands back then, they were still in the mindset of having to grind shows, having to grind physical media, having to grind uh their lives away to just get anywhere. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, social media completely flips everything. And now in 2026, if you don't have a platform, you don't have a career. You can bring out a hundred, two hundred people a show, you can play a hundred shows a year, you can do whatever you want to do. But at the end of the day, if you don't have those monthlies, if you don't have those followers, if you don't have those numbers, nine out of ten times, agencies, labels, national bands, big venues like live nation venues are not gonna give a single fuck about you. And it's it's crazy that like growing up through all of that, I still love those bands. You know, we get to play with Memphis Mayfire this summer, and that's my favorite band. Um, and it's like seeing where these bands were and what they had to adapt to get to where they are now, right, is a reason why not many of them survived. And it's the same thing that's happening with AI, to where it's just the music industry is gonna be flipped and it's gonna be forced, and it's gonna be something where you might think you're doing things right, you might think this is the correct way to do it, but if you're not following the template of what the industry has within that moment, you know, you're just wasting your time.
SPEAKER_00You reminded me of something very important, and because at first I was spooked by AI too, and I had the same complaint. We and I still, in some ways, still do feel this way that yes, it was embraced too quickly, but I was reminded by the fact that hey, I'm old enough, we're not too you and I are not too far apart in age, but I do remember how quickly social media was embraced too. This is just the next thing. This is just what that looks like in 2026, not 2006. We're like 20 years later, this is what this looks like now. So you're talking about the importance of flexibility, you're talking about the importance of being willing to adapt, adaptability. Now, I grew up not too far from you in Pittsburgh, and I know that this is Rust Belt territory, I know this is working class territory, and you're seeing people with some of the best work I think you'll find. And I think part of that is the spirit of being adaptable and willing to do whatever you gotta do to earn a living and take care of the the end-all be all responsibilities at the end of the day. And on top of that, there's the millennial part, where really like, I mean, on top of seeing that, you know, watching our dads work in factories and things like that, our grandparents, like we're watching this, and then we've got the millennial of it all, which is saying prepare for every single crisis ever and every you know recession and economic downturn ever. Oh, so your sense of adaptability. Am I relating here? Am I am I too far off? Is some of that where it comes from?
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, I mean, with my family and my come up, um, you know, I played lots and lots of sports pretty much my entire life. My dad was um a baseball player, then he moved on to doing uh baseball fields and he was in the military as well. And we have a really strong military family. It's kind of something where, like, every time I've had a stepping stone in my life, I've always had to adapt. You know, when just an example, we were doing Sovereign, we were playing with Crown the Empire, Summer Slaughter Tour, all these great things in 2024. We had an instance where something happened, our band broke up, and then I had to basically like adapt, find new members, write a new record, do everything. I took a year off, and then I came back, and it's only been you know nine months since we've come back, and we're bigger than we've ever been. You know, we have a record deal, bigger shows than we've ever had. We're going on tour this fall. We have uh like 12 songs in the oven right now. Well, technically three are out, but there's 12 songs in total. Um, you know, we have so much going on that nine months ago we were a dead band, and I had to basically behind the scenes adapt to everything, restart our socials basically, restart growing our Spotify, restart merch, restart everything that like you know, it it comes down to in uh anything in life when it comes to work, because most people nowadays, especially, are very lazy and don't understand that you need to put in the work if you want to receive the wealth, and if you don't, you're not just gonna get a handout unless you're lucky. And nine out of ten times the people who are lucky are the people doing anything that's content related or just like I don't know, OnlyFans to like you know, winning the lottery or gambling, um, the very, very small percentage of people. So it's just crazy to me because it's like I work so hard for this, but it's like I'm actually seeing the reward finally. I'm actually seeing the the growth and the process, but it's definitely something where like it because I have that ability to adapt, because I have that ability to understand how things are changing and where things are going, especially with the sound of music, because you know, the metal core I made two or three years ago is not the same metal core releasing now. The metal core I listened to growing up is not the same metal core I listen to now. Um, being able to sit back and be like, what's popular, what's different, where do I go, how do I do this, is just a strength that not a lot of people have, but it's like not also that hard to learn. I feel like people just don't want to get with the times when it comes to certain things, you know, it's like it goes with everything, you know, from equality to rights to things in the world to anything. It's like people don't want to adapt to what's going on in everyday life, and it's like, why? Why are you lazy? It doesn't make any sense to me.
SPEAKER_00And why not? What is is my question? What's your reason? Why not? Because you really don't know what the results are gonna be. Yes, it might be a little bit of a risk, and I do empathize with anybody that is afraid of risk. I empathize with anybody that's exhausted by the everything going on right now externally and feels a little bit defeated, and it's like, okay, take a hot minute, but at the end of the day, there's something to be said for commitment. If not, if nothing else, commitment seems to be the thing that earns respect. Commitment seems to be what keeps the momentum that you're talking about and and what keeps things flowing the way that we want them to flow. It just says so much. And it really doesn't take a whole lot to do that. It's literally showing up. And I get like I said, I get that some people are exhausted and and you know aren't ready to take that on, and that's fine. Do what you gotta do until you get to that spot again. But it's kind of reality. That's at some point you do have to buck up and say, look, I'm either gonna do this or I'm not. So is the is commitment that like special sauce that changed things for who they fear and and got the forward momentum that you're talking about? What what is it that changed?
SPEAKER_01It was that because you know, I always say this, and a lot of people get mad at me. You know, I look at it as I'm a father, um, I you know work remotely, all my money I make is remotely. I don't really have a job, I haven't had a job in years. I like working for myself, and it comes down to like if you have if you put your mind to it and you have something you want to do, it's up to you to accomplish it. And for me, I always run by the fact that like you know, the world doesn't stop moving, life doesn't stop moving, nothing stops growing, nothing stops for you. If you stop, which is your choice, no one cares, no one gives a fuck because at the end of the day, the world's gonna keep moving, life's gonna keep moving, things are gonna get more expensive, the economy's gonna change, you know, the music industry is gonna change. Um, everything around you changes while you're standing still. So if you're not willing to grasp onto the moment and keep running with it, keep moving, keep pushing, you're never gonna get where you want to be because nothing stops. You have to keep going at all times, or you're never gonna succeed. So I I'd say yes because you know, um, which real quick is it? Can you hear my fan that just kicked on?
SPEAKER_00Not loud enough that it's interfering with the colour. Okay, cool, cool, cool.
SPEAKER_01Um example, and you know, I I just to clear the air, I love these guys to death. So if they see this, no no shade to you guys, but um, past members I've had, you know, there comes a point where there just isn't a drive, there just isn't a uh a passion for for the craft, and it it comes down to again, like you said, you know, people aren't willing to get their shit together with what's going on around them, with understanding that it sucks, but you gotta keep moving. Because I, you know, I even with my new current band, we have moments like that where I'm doing everything for the band, everything with booking, everything with posting, everything with making music, and it's like Like, I gotta kind of take a second to reach out to the guys and be like, Hey, how's your day going? How are things going? How are you doing? Like, can we make any process or progress on this? You know, kind of just give them a little bit of encouragement. You know, it's just a little bit of like you need that little nudge. But once I get that nudge, I see the effort, I see the work, I see, you know, live, we're killing it right now. The guys are doing fantastic with their stage presence and their performance. And it's just something we didn't have before where we were just struggling to figure out like what was missing. And it was just the drive, it was the energy, it was the the passion, and that's just something that like you need as a band, you need a team behind you. Not only do you need a team behind you, you need to be able to push the band forward because no one else is gonna do it for you. You're the only one who can push yourself forward, so it kind of comes down to you know who's gonna be that person in the band that has to sacrifice 30 minutes an hour here and there with their kid, who has to sacrifice an hour of playing PlayStation so they can focus on this, you know, it it comes down to your your your choices of where you have these like things you want to do, you have these like things that you want to accomplish with like your free time or with like your life outside of your normal job. But if your band isn't a hobby, your band is a business and you want it to become your career, you need to find a way to make your band your priority. Because at the end of the day, the only way your business will become your career, and this goes for any business you ever start, is if you put time, effort, and make it your priority.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And that's a lot of things that people don't realize is that your band needs to like you can say, like, hey, my kid comes first, hey my wife comes first, hey, my job comes first, hey, that's cool, but when does your band come first? Because if your band doesn't get that attention, if your band doesn't get at least five percent of your undivided attention, how is it ever gonna go anywhere?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's that's all in very important things just uh to think about, and it's definitely not the first time I've heard this from a musician. I think everybody who's tried to be in a band has gone through the struggle of I've I've got this group, some are committed, some aren't. Now it's a now we're at a point where we have to have a conversation. Now it looks like things might need to change. And you're speaking in terms of being a leader and being a decision maker and and being willing to take on that responsibility. But I'm wondering if does that naturally fall, you're for anybody that doesn't know Girly vocals, does that naturally fall on the lead singer given the title? Like, is that something that just happens?
SPEAKER_01I don't want to speak for every band, but most bands that I've worked with or talked with because I'm a booking agent and I also help manage bands and work with bands and stuff. Yeah, for the most part. Because at the end of the day, another thing I like to say, and a lot of people hate me for saying it sometimes, is that no one goes to a show for a drummer, a guitarist, and a bass player. It's been like this since the dawn of time. No one goes to see a band because of the members. They go and see a band because of the front man. You look at anyone from Fallen in Reverse to Escape the Fate to a Data Remember to Bear Tooth to any of these bands, they're all going for one single person. When a band blows up, Spirit Box, it's all about Courtney. When a band blows up, uh oh yeah, incredible. Um uh, what do you call it? Uh Lorna Shore. Yeah, we're all about Will.
SPEAKER_00We want those animal noises into the hellfire. Let's go.
SPEAKER_01It's literally all about that one person. No one cares about anyone else. There are bands, of course, where the other members are doing most of the heavy lifting, most of the heavy work, and are the leaders of the band. But for the most part, yeah, it it I think it does fall on the vocalist from time to time because you're the face of the band, you're the image. It's up to you to have the repet reputation and the the backing, not only social media-wise, but live presence-wise with socializing and doing different things. That like it's up to you as the face of the band to be your main selling point. And if you're not, your band won't get anywhere. You know, you go to a label, you go to anyone who's gonna be backing you with money, they're gonna look at your image, they're gonna look at the center of your image, who is nine out of ten times your vocalist and your front man, and they're gonna be like, Okay, so what's the story about this person? How are they online? Who are they as a person? What do they believe? Not necessarily what they believe in, but definitely like looking over you know social media pages and making sure there's no like questionable things, making sure that they have like you know, just making sure that that person can represent their brand the best way possible. Um, and with me, you know, it it wasn't even like necessarily um forced upon me, it was more of a choice, and it kind of came down to being like once my band broke up and we got into this position where we had the right new music, we had to get more shows, we had to figure everything out. I was like, all right, well, this is my band because I'm the original member, this is my everything. So, in a way, what I say goes, obviously, I respect everyone if they have time, if they need like, hey, we have a tour and they can't do it, or if we have different things that they can't do, of course, but it comes down to like I'm gonna do all the management, I'm gonna do all the leader stuff, I'm gonna do all the booking, I'm gonna do all the things that I need to do, get us a record label, get us the opportunities we need. Because in the end of the day, I just feel like it falls on me because it's like I'm the face of the band, it's my band, and it kind of comes down to like it not a trust situation, but a situation where it's like I don't want to wait for someone else to get me an opportunity, I want to make that opportunity, so I just feel like I can do it, so I'm gonna do it.
SPEAKER_00Right, and that's where the responsibility comes in. And to, you know, you made me think of something else too. Yes, it uh those types of responsibilities do naturally fall on a lead singer in a lot of cases, and particularly with the new band that we're just getting to know, particularly with the band that we have no frame of reference for. So we got to look at the guy who's making a lot of noise up front. Yep, because that's that's our only frame of reference at that point. I do think, particularly in cases like typo negative, like Aerosmith, like um, you know, Guns N' Roses, once you build some longevity, then the rest of the world wants to find out well who's who's behind. Like now I want to know about the rest of the rest of the group, the rest of the guys. Now I want to know more about this whole operation and what it is about it that is so successful. At least that's as a fan. Speaking as a fan, that's one thing that definitely piques my interest. And that's why over half my library is rock biographies, just to learn like how they did what they did, and you know what were their what were they thinking whenever they were making certain decisions that led them to be the success that we know them today. Tell me more about navigating vocals and being a booking agent, because I don't come across that too often.
SPEAKER_01I uh I will talk about that one second. I just wanted to touch on what you just said. The funny part about the fact that you mentioned all those older bands is back then people cared about the bands and their members. Nowadays, people don't because if you pay attention, like I followed, I have a half-sleep for Escape of Fate. Um, I have you know, all these other bands that I I've loved for decades now. If you follow any band past 2000, even the 2010s, nine out of 10 times, they don't have original members except for the vocalist. Whereas back then, like back in the day, that necessarily didn't happen. You still had the same members for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, and there might be one or two changes here and there, but like look at Escape the Fate, and if they ever see this, guys, I love you guys, don't take any hate for this.
SPEAKER_00Ronnie Rocky, please.
SPEAKER_01No, you guys like they've been through so many member changes in the past two decades that it's like the only person you remember nine out of ten times is Craig or Ronnie. And even then, the only other person is gonna be Rob on drums or Max, who was the original guitarist. No one ever cares about like the other guitarists, really. It's all like that, you know. Whereas back in the day, that wasn't a thing. You had Slash, you had these other people that were very, very famous because they were the instrumentalists they are. Whereas nowadays you just have bands cycling members like it's a fucking claw machine or something, and they don't even care.
SPEAKER_00So, what's the difference?
SPEAKER_01The difference is music is a I feel like I don't know, I feel like not just music, but I feel like the world is just different. I feel like when you go and you watch documentaries, you go and you look. Um, I don't want to say it was easier, but I feel like touring, doing shows, making money back in the day was a lot simpler than now and even 10 years ago. You know, we hit a point where 70s, 80s music, 90s music, you know, these different things from hair metal to pop to um, you know, tons of bands getting songs and movies and TV shows and different things like that, to where they were able to financially make one-hit wonders and live off of it. You don't really see that anymore. You know, even in the early 2000s, you would have like one-hit wonders and a band would live off of that one-hit wonder um and like vibe off of it. Nowadays, when do you ever see that? It's just singles, singles, singles, singles, singles. We need to get as much music out as possible.
SPEAKER_00And no one is you remember them, and maybe you don't. Like the I I know I know Trumba Wumba today, but do I know who was on the pop charts two years ago? Eh, maybe. Like what if we're going one hit wonder to one hit wonder, like if we're speaking in those terms. So it it sounds to me like perhaps listenership has changed. The way that music is different. Maybe we were a little bit more willing to be patient, you know, at that time, because technologically we had to be, number one.
SPEAKER_01So everything was physical, right?
SPEAKER_00We we we had to be a little more patient. Now it's kind of like eh, on to the next, on to the next, on to the next. We know we know what we need to know pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's the same concept as, and I saw I think it was Franz talking about this. Um the fact that back in the day, um, whether it was before the 2010s, whether it was after the 2010s, whether it was the 90s, 80s, 70s, whatever, just an example compared to after COVID. COVID is the main COVID's the main point. Um, anything prior to COVID, albums, albums, albums, because you could sit down with a producer and actually create a story, actually create a template, and actually create an album that goes from start to finish and release it. You didn't necessarily need to have singles, you didn't necessarily need to have this big TikTok push or this big ad push. You just had to release your album, do everything right with touring and marketing, and be successful. And you would, and that's why when you go back and listen, there's so many albums that are impactful from every single decade up till COVID. Since COVID, there's really been only few and far between albums that are actually impactful, and that's because bands aren't allowed to do that anymore. What they have to do is to stay relevant, is you have to release six, seven, eight, nine singles, and then release an album that only has two, three songs left on it because you're dealing with modern listeners where they can only last a song at a time and then they skip.
SPEAKER_00So I miss the concept album. I miss having an album being excited for release day, and then finding out the story as you're listening to it. Yeah, like that that's so few and far between. And for me, the most recent memory, the last group that like I'm just personally a fan of that's done it is OPET with the last one. But other than them, I can't think of too many people who are really doing it anymore. There's not a lot, and they're probably only doing it because they are established, they're not up, they're not up and coming.
SPEAKER_01There's a few for me. Um, you know, the the album that blew them into the fucking stratosphere, the Bad Omens album that came out in 2022. That album was probably the best album of this decade so far to me. It changed metal core in general. Um, the most recent Dayseeker album, I think, is Peak from start to finish. But outside of that, I mean, there's bands and albums I love. Like, of course, I love Memphis Mayfire's new album. Um, and you know, um, I even really liked like Attack Attack 2, and I liked what um Spirit Box did with the Tsunami Seat. Yes, and then uh I really liked Architect's album that came out. Um and even Next Gen from Boom of the Horizon, like there's these albums that are good, they're great, they're they're great for what they are. But if I go back and I look at you know Broom of the Horizon Suicide Season or Sep Eternal, doesn't even fucking hold a candle. I go back and I look at uh Memphis Mayfire, which if they see this, guys, I love you, I can't wait to play with you this summer, don't hate me. Please um chaotic or whatever the fuck. No, it's called Shapeshifter, right? Right album is good, yeah, but it doesn't even come close to the hollow and challenger, not even in the same boat.
SPEAKER_00It's a little bit apples and oranges at this point because the listening climate is so different, the industry is so different.
SPEAKER_01Yep. I mean, look at Wage War, they had to release the heaviest EP of their career just so they can stop having people hate on them because all their stuff is modern metal core and not what blueprints and all that shit was back then.
SPEAKER_00Right. I love the last EP because to me, they to me, I'm like, oh, there's some authenticity here. There is there is some Florida up in here. Like, I'm like, okay, like I believe this now. And then it's it's taken, I think, them a minute to fit find their identity. And maybe this is it. And I if it if it is, I'm happy with it. But I I get what you're saying. There, there, there's a there's a learning curve, and you're competing with a shortened attention span. It is hard. So I mean, in the middle of all this, you're doing your own thing, you're you're booking and you're doing vocals. But at what point did you decide, okay, who they fear is no longer a casual thing? This this is a thing. Like we're we're gonna take this seriously.
SPEAKER_01So I decided that two years ago, three years ago now. For me personally, I decided this band needed to take off because I thought we released a good EP. Not it could have been better, but it was all the show offers and all the show opportunities we're getting. You know, I played 700 cap room, show over a thousand people. Then I went up to Ohio and played with Secrets and I set the kill. That show was amazing. Then we played with Until I Wake in Afterlife, and we were just playing with so many national bands, and the band was like taking off at that point. Even after the breakup and everything that happened, I got to this year, and like every single new single we've released has been one of the best sounding songs I've ever made. And every time it releases, they always do great, they always pop off. Everyone's actually like caring and listening and wanting to see us and wanting to support us. And it got to the point now where it's like I believe this can be a thing. I'm not entirely sure yet how I'm going to achieve it in this landscape. But for me, uh like just to give you a little bit of what I do with my writing and who I am as uh as an instrumentalist, vocalist, everything like that, is it goes back to adapting. I sat down with all these songs and I changed my my you know, listening. I changed what I listened to. You know, I used to listen to only the old 2010s uh metalcore heavy shit, um, all those albums from the warp tour era, and I had to basically come in um a year ago, a year and a half ago now, and basically sit down with like uh hyperviolence by Wind Waker, sit down with the newer Bad Omens album, the newer Dayseeker album, sit down with North Lane and Um The Plot in You and Kingdom of Giants and all these modern metal core bands, and basically force myself to change how I listen to music and what I like. So now I love that stuff, but it took a little bit, and once I was able to do that, I was like, okay, now I need to essentially copy this. I need to look listen to this sound, listen to this music, listen to this everything, and essentially write my own music around it. Like, look at my last EP, look at who we were, look at where we were going, and see if I can pivot it into this newer style. Because if this is what is getting popular, if this is what's taking off right now, this is the only way I will succeed. You know, a lot of people say that they write music for themselves, they write music for um what they love for their expression. I'm not technically doing that, but I am because for me, I'm writing music to get famous. Because in my mind, if I want this to be a career, I need to have the mindset that every song I write, every song I make, can be a top billboard song. It needs to be the best song. It doesn't, I shouldn't, you know, I can include my feelings, my expressions, my ideas, my stories lyrically, but that doesn't mean I need to hold back on the writing just because I want to do that. So I combine both of them so that I can go to Dead Dreaming 2, which is a zombie song, but have very thought-out lyrics about how I'm feeling, and what if, you know, I was just on I was just on a um podcast last week with March 4th, I think is his name, or like March Forward or whatever podcast or whatever. Um, and I was telling him as he was asking me about the lyrics, I was like, well, you know, um, what if my life was never what I wanted it to be? What if offering myself is a second uh uh second chance to breathe? That's a it's the concept of like the world around us already feels like listeners, the music industry, everybody is zombified based off of TikTok, social media, the way you have to live, how expensive everything is. So it's kind of like a a thing of like, if I was to kill myself, or if I was to subject myself to where these people are now, would I actually succeed? Would I actually become better because I got rid of myself to become what these other people are, what the masses are, um, and that kind of concept of like if the apocalypse was now or if the apocalypse was tomorrow, would I have to subject myself to the lowest of lows to become something, or can I continue being myself and get where I want to be?
SPEAKER_00Right. So, what makes it not a moral compass issue to make decisions like that, because I'm sure some creatives listen to that and go, I'm terrified because I'm selling my soul. Like, I I I get it, I get the fear that's associated with that, but for you, it's not necessarily a moral compass issue because it's a little bit more killing your ego, is what I'm hearing. That and and giving yourself the room to explore.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, that kind of falls into the question you asked that we kind of skipped over the booking and being a vocalist. You know, my my big thing with the music industry is is that I I'm not an asshole and I'm not a douchebag, and I don't have an ego to the point where I'm gonna reject people or push people away or do anything wrong wrong like that. Like I always treat people with respect, no matter who they are, what they are, who they wanna be. Um, and it kind of comes down to like. Um, you know, being a booking agent, I got into it because I was like, well, it feels good to like help these bands achieve their goals, their dreams, what they want to accomplish. So when I'm working with an agency, I'm helping a band. You know, Art of Deception is a band I'm working really closely with. Uh, love those guys. Um, they're out of Pennsylvania. And like me and the vocalists, we sat down on like a two-plus hour call, and I basically did like quote unquote, like just free management advice type things. And we just sat and had like a heart to heart, and I was just telling them like, this is what we need to do, like, if we want to be successful with touring, this is where we need to go. Like, he's a good friend of mine, and it kind of comes down to like I got in the booking while also being a vocalist, while also being a band manager, while also doing all these things because I want to see bands succeed, I want to help bands, I want to help musicians. It kind of comes down to like I feel like in a way I know what I'm doing, I feel like in a way I know how to get to the next level, I know where to go. You know, and people question it all the time like, how do you know, what do you do? And it's like, I just look at results, you know. We're we've played with over 20, 30 national bands. We have another 10, 15 bands we're playing with this year that are bigger than I'll probably ever be. Um, and getting shows like that while being paid to do those shows, like I'm not paying, I'm not selling tickets, I'm not anything. I'm being paid to play these shows at the level I'm at. It's like that's not something that you just randomly shoot an email and get lucky. That's about how hard you've grinded, your image, what your band looks like. So for me, it's like I wanted to do this and become an agent and become all these things because one, I can work on the road while I tour and make money that way, and then two, it helps the bands, you know.
SPEAKER_00I would say that's gotta be an advantageous position for you. And and it's I mean, we're not saying anything that isn't obvious. So please, like, what have you learned that has helped who they fear as you're doing this?
SPEAKER_01Um, that there is a lot, lot of growth in being an agent for your own band because I didn't like you know that 90% of industries are always down to connections and who you know. You can work as hard as you want, but if someone knows someone that's in a higher place, you will always get better opportunities before the harder working band. So for me being a booking agent, the biggest plus and the biggest thing I've learned is that the more bands I work with, the more managers I work with, the more labels and agencies I work with, the more my band gets free publicity, free attention, free everything that I don't even have to pitch them. I don't even have to do anything. These people go out of their way to, oh, well, we're working with this Mikey guy. Let's look into him and what he's about and who his band is. And then, you know, that's one way we got this record label deal was um reaching out to Billy, he's a great guy. He does uh tour management for you know, Dayseeker, home team, all these different bands. And he he manages one of the bands I booked, Resider, fantastic band out of California.
SPEAKER_00Just miss them. I love them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, they're great. Um, and he was like, hey man, like love the music, love the energy, love the image. Like, I want to pitch you guys as someone I know. His name's Joe. Um, I think it would be a great opportunity for you guys. And I was like, okay, here's everything. We got an EPK together, we got all our stuff together, and we send it to him. Next thing I know, I get a you know, an email, and here we are on Over Shadow and working with SVG and stuff. And it's like the music industry is many parts, and if you can yourself as one single person do all these little parts within the industry, that's how you'll actually succeed, that's how you'll actually get big. It's not it's not about necessarily growing and grinding and releasing music and being good at social media, those are definitely all important, but it's about taking everything and doing one whole puzzle piece that has everything put together.
SPEAKER_00I mean, maybe the biggest piece of that pie is relationship building. Yes, that's that's what I'm getting. That's what I'm getting. Yeah, it makes it total sense. I mean, it works that way in every other industry. Why wouldn't it work that way in the music industry?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, it that that's the simplest way because you know, if I'm uh working with Tuck from a Fit for a King right now to get one of his bands out there, you know, we talked on the phone going over the fact that I love his new album, and I think Lonely God's like one of the best Fit for a King albums. Um, and then we got to business, and you know, it was an opportunity for him to check out my my music and an opportunity for us to meet and actually become um, you know, business partners in a way and build a business relationship. Um, so it's just things like that where it's like I would have never been able to do that if I wasn't a booking agent. Um it's really cool. So that's kind of like where booking came about. Um, where I actually started it because the wise men's fear put out a Facebook post and was like, Can anyone book us here? And I'm like, I've never booked before, but I've played these venues, I'll message them for you. And then next thing I know, I was I was our booking agent for like two or three years, and it was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00Ta-da! And then that leads into other opportunities, and now you could now you've been doing it professionally. Now you've done it enough times that you can call yourself a professional. But again, even in that example, that only came uh to be because you had some sort of relationship established, somewhat that's it started there.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, but that was actually like the most random algorithm post I've ever seen in my life. Yeah, I had no idea who they like. I knew of them because they've been big for 10 years, but it was just random and it was awesome. But that definitely led to so much, yeah, and that's why I work with like a company now and everything like that. So um, it's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00What is who they fear working toward right now?
SPEAKER_01Oh my god. Well, um what are we building toward? Yeah, in the sense of releases or in the sense of where we want to go with the bands, like all the above. So, funny enough, talking about the whole you know, concept album and release schedule and stuff. We're sadly diving deep into the whole release consistency thing with the TikTok brain because we're a small band and it's the only way we're gonna get anywhere. I I like I tell my fans this all the time like I love you guys, I appreciate everything, but there's no way I can just drop an EP without singles or anything because I'm just gonna it's just gonna float under the radar in this market. Um so basically, our goal right now, um since November, we uh we've been dropping a song every two months, every eight weeks. We have like I don't even mind if I leak it a little bit, I don't care. Um, because I I'm just excited about it. We've been working on it for so long. You know, we have a new song uh coming out in June, and then we have a new one coming out the like end of July, early August, and then we have a record dropping, um, an EP dropping in September. Okay, and it's kind of every eight weeks we're releasing stuff.
SPEAKER_00Well, let me ask about the eight-week separation thing though, just because I'm I'm not really like in the industry in this capacity. Is there a reason we're choosing eight weeks specifically?
SPEAKER_01When we release this, um our first EP back, like our second EP technically in general, um, in September, you know, we're going right back into another release cycle of eight weeks later, song, eight weeks later, song, eight weeks later song, and then another EP next fall. Like we're just gonna be releasing. I want to literally have a song every eight weeks for the next two years, basically, is my situation right now. And you know, when the EP drops, sadly, it's like every song has already been out, but it's kind of how you have to do things now. Um, but essentially with the eight-week process, it's something I kind of learned from a few friends of mine that work with like Theory records and a few friends of mine that work with like bigger rep records like Sharptone and Fearless and Thriller and stuff like that, is it's like you need to have consistent um content, or the the TikTok brain community isn't gonna be able to adapt. So the the word of mouth right now, from what I've heard, is that songs are basically dead after 30 days. So, like back in the day, you would drop a song and it would last months. Nowadays, you're lucky if it lasts a week, and if it lasts a month, congratulations. Lasting two months, you're basically scraping. So, like the problem with numbers and the problem with streams that I've noticed is that every month numbers pretty much reset when it comes to monthlies in a way, to where if you're at 100,000 monthlies, or if you're at 10,000 monthlies or 50,000 monthlies, the minute that month resets, you're like immediately seeing a drop of everything, which immediately makes you start to look bad because you're going from this number to this number immediately, and it's like very daunting because like we hit 20,000 monthlies with uh the past month, and then we hit this month and it dropped to 14k, and it was nothing that we necessarily did, it just kind of was like how the process goes. So, because of that, bands are dropping songs more consistently. If you pay attention to Dark Divine, right now that's in a release cycle. Um, you pay attention to uh, I think it was Era who just dropped an album. Pay attention to all these other bigger bands, they're doing the same thing, eight weeks, eight weeks, eight weeks, because it's like you release a song, you have 30 days of massive content push, and then that 30-day window is meant to just be a new hype up for a song.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And it's like you just keep this release cycle going because if you can keep songs going, you can keep people's attention, then you can't you all your ultimate goal is that you're ultimately not losing that listener or that fan because they'll get hyped for a song, they'll listen to it, then they might stream it for a week, they might stream it for a month, and then maybe it'll die out and they'll go to something else. But then, oh wait, four weeks later, there's another new song, wait a minute, and then they can go and listen to that, and then you just keep doing that process, and you're catching these people that are like doom scrollers, or you're catching these people that are very much like um I always say TikTok brained, where they have to be like switching on things left and right, they're more likely to check out one song that drops every eight weeks than a 10-song album.
SPEAKER_00I see. Okay. So we're maintaining interest because it it sounds like, I guess in layman's terms, the algorithm averages itself out every month. So you're so you you're trying to maintain numeric momentum by meeting somewhere in the middle or at least giving yourself the best way, the uh the best foot to start off on by working on the buildup between those averages, between the the beginning of uh whatever month. You know, basically, yeah. Okay, okay. So I wow, no one's ever explained to me how uh how one, how important that was, two, how it works, three, that there actually is a science to this, and that it is a science.
SPEAKER_01It's something that I'm picking up on. Like people could watch this and be like, oh, he's wrong, or he doesn't know what he's talking about, or anything. And I'm fine with that if you want to call me wrong or anything. But for us personally as a band, I can literally show you numbers, logistics, statistics, go to bands that I work with, talk with 24-7, that are my friends that have over 100,000 monthlies, and they're doing the same process and it's working perfect for them. And it's just this concept of modern listeners, nine out of ten times don't want albums, they just want songs. So if you're always feeding them a song, if you have a 12, like I've I've said this to bands before, if you have a 12-song album and you release all 12 songs at once, you literally just wasted your money. Because if you have 12 songs, you could go and spread that across an entire year of doing a release every like eight weeks, and then the minute you get near the end of the year, just release what's left on the album, and you just had an entire year of content. Or on the flip side, because you have 12 songs, you can literally just release a song every eight weeks for two years. That means you're always having content, you're always having new music, you're always having people coming to your account. And the best part is that nine out of ten times on Spotify or different apps like that, when they follow you and they subscribe to you when they anything, they don't go back and unfollow or unsubscribe. It's the same thing with with memberships or with subscription services like Netflix and stuff like that. People don't think to unsubscribe, think to unfollow, they just continue going. So you may have grabbed this person here in January to follow your Spotify, but now on this new song in March, you just grab this new person. That person in January, even if they're not listening to you, you still have their follow. Yeah, and you can just keep moving and keep releasing new music, meaning you're always gonna get growth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the whole takeaway that I'm getting from here is how commitment keeps us keeps us in a state of constant momentum, and how important pacing yourself and and paying attention to that momentum is. I have learned so much this episode, and I know that definitely any man listening, any artist listening to this is probably gonna learn a lot too. Mikey, thank you so much for your time. I can't wait to see what's next. I know you can't say too, too much about what's next right now, but you did allude to the fact that we're gonna see it all on social media, and we can't wait for it. Thank you so much for your time. Of course. Keep an eye on their socials because white out is due Friday. That is gonna be exciting. That's gonna be another taste of all the music to come from who they fear. That is new since I chatted with Mikey. Dead Dreamy 2 is also out. Get into that. Marilyn Metalcore, dude. I I love it. I go explore more about this band. I'll give you all the links to do so in the show notes and of course at mouthfinehands.com where you can get the recap of any guest episode that I've had on vigorously. Thanks so much for joining me for another week. We've got more coming away Wednesday when we're getting into the industry plant of it all. That's been a hot topic lately, so we're doing an episode on that on Wednesday. Stay tuned for that. We'll see ya. Bye.