Are We Too Quick to Call Someone an Industry Plant?

What actually is an industry plant? Why are Castle Rat and Angine de Poitrine facing accusations of being ones? Are we throwing around these labels too quickly?

Val gets into he industry plant of it all this episode. 

Get more Val at https://valkleinhans.com/

Transcript

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People often use the term industry plant as shorthand for this artist blew up so quickly, and I think that's a little bit sus. I don't know that I trust how quickly everything rose, and I'm not sure about it. But just fast visibility alone, is that actual proof of artificial construction? Is that proof there's a puppeteer behind it all with their marionettes just going, okay, today we're gonna do this? That's for you to decide this episode, because we're gonna get into industry plants vigorously. I've been paying attention to Audien Despotrine. My friends that are French Canadian, I hope I pronounced that correctly. I've been paying quite a bit of attention to them recently, the microtones. It's interesting. What they're doing is interesting. And I've also been paying attention to the lovely castle rat. Riley Pickerton, please give us a hair tutorial. Let me start right there while I've got her attention, maybe. I don't know, with this episode. That's really what I want to say. But now Castle Rat's name is getting thrown into all of this, and this aggression just will not stand. I remember when Icepice had all the accusations of being an industry plant, too. And I keep seeing these artists and their name placed next to the term industry plant. I had to start asking why, why, why are they getting this label? Yes, it seems like, particularly both Castle Rat and Angine Despatrines, it does seem like over the last season, over the last few months, especially, both have rose very fast. Both have a lot of attention right now. Both are growing a fan base right now. And both, well, one older, one is a little bit older than the other, but within the last year-ish, both have put out new music. Let's come correct on that. Let's remember that for later. So because I realize that, because they're still both just released brand new albums. Okay. And because of that, I have to ask, it doesn't the attention garnered during those events, is that not a natural occurrence when that happens? Like somebody puts something new out, and ta-da, the rest of the world wants to find out more about it. We're curious about it. We are we, you know, we we want to find out what's going on. So that's why, at least in those cases, in the case of Castle Rat and Angine Despotrine, I'm calling bullshit on that. It does not make them industry plants to me. The fact that they seemingly overnight have a lot of attention onto them, you can't attribute that to absolutely nothing. There's new music involved here. There's new things to discuss about them here. So you can't really say that there's a whole puppeteer behind all of that if there's something to actually dissect and listen to and critique and talk about, which you would naturally do in these situations. I think we need to get clear about what an industry plant is and what an industry plant is not. So let's do that before we get too deep into this. Here's the definition that I'm going to work with. What we think an industry plant might be. Let's start here. Is somebody who appears to have emerged out of nowhere, heavy playlisting, label support, press, maybe even some brand partnerships this early in their career? It's a narrative that feels suspiciously polished too soon. Audiences kind of assume hidden machinery is all of that. Because how else could something function so efficiently, so quickly, right? And I am so glad that I caught the recent Castle Rat interview Full Metal Jackie uh did with Riley Pinkerton. And I am so glad that she asked the question, like in I'm paraphrasing, but the question was what do you make of these accusations that Castle Rat is getting? And Riley, in so many words, I'm also paraphrasing here, said, dude, who really would want to get out there and put all this industry time and money behind a doom metal band based that's rat themed and based on a fantasy realm, and there's a lot of lore involved and storytelling involved. Who wants to put that much time, effort, and money into propelling a band like that, which is gonna require the attention of a specific audience? Okay, if I'm one of the big wigs in C-suite at these labels or whatever, whatever, whatever. If I'm one of the big wigs that are the decision makers as far as who gets pushed and how hard they're pushed, am I gonna focus my attention on a rat themed doom metal band that is that comes from a fantasy realm and has a whole story added to them? No. That is not gonna be the quickest return on investment, if we're being honest. And this is not shade against Castle Rat. Clearly, I'm a Castle Rat fan. I love what they're doing. I did see them on the Amon Clock tour that just went everywhere with Death Clock, Amon Amartha and Castle Rat. They are a lot of fun. Here's why I think they're actually getting some attention right now. Number one, the music is solid. Yes, it's doomy, yes, it's fun. It's a little bit sludgy at times. The story is fun. A rat queen, a rat reapress, a plague doctor is involved, a count is involved, and we gotta protect the realm. Like anybody into DD is absolutely this is up your alley if you don't know them already. But like it's a little bit nerdy. The aesthetics are very Conan the Barbarian, like Schwarzenegger, Conan the Barbarian. Let's come correct on that. Like VHS, older, just like it is there is thought, intention, and a lot of excess effort and attention paid to things like that. Where if I'm of a business mind, I'm trying to eliminate as much of that as possible before I throw time and money into it, and just whatever's gonna make me the dollar the quickest, right? So Riley made a good point in her pushback to all the accusations of Castle Rat being an industry plant. You know why Castle Rat's successful right now? Here's why Castle Rat's successful right now. They're putting on fun live shows and they're putting out good music, and they're doing something different in a world where everything does feel very polished, and everything does feel very curated and formulaic, and there seems to be an a natural element of authenticity to anything different purely because it's different anymore, because so much is the same. They're not a core band right now. Core is taking over. That ain't a choice, that is a choice in itself today to not hop on that bandwagon. Okay, no shade to core bands. I love core bands, but I'm just saying, if you were gonna do the mainstream thing, you wouldn't be doing what Castle Rat is doing right now. So they're finding a niche, they're finding people that love the aesthetic, they're finding people that love the story, they're finding people that love good doom music, do metal, they're finding people that love a fun live show where swords are involved. Okay, it's not rocket science. It's just fun. It's fun. If you're into Renaissance fairs, you would have fun as well. And I'm saying this after watching a live show of theirs with my own eyes. This is why people are talking about them, why people think they're fun. They're doing something different in a world where everything feels very much the same. They are standing out right now. This is why they're rising quickly and why there's a lot of attention on them quickly. And I will say similar things for Angine De Potrine, and I would have said the same thing for icevice when all of that broke too. I remember she was getting dogged by industry plant accusations, and to that I say, I'm sorry, why? I think in her case, it was because, you know, at the time, we're also seeing uh a slew of other female rappers doing similar things, and she just happened to be the youngest, newest one. So by the third or fourth or fifth time we're seeing this, now we're starting to say, oh, industry plant, purely because it's been done so many times before. Here's just your latest edition, right? It kind of gave that. But Ice proved herself with her her lyrics, with her fun, just like just her soft, calm aura. And people who watch her interviews love that, they love the tone of her voice. That's what she's building her fan base on. And yeah, her so her music is fun music. Okay. I think she just caught caught up in a whole bit uh of she just happened to be, you know, last one uh last one in line, right? In the middle of so many similar artists that we have been seeing time and time and time and time again. Because what when one takes off the business mind, C-suite, all the above, they're gonna say, hmm, let's do the same thing over again. So, do I understand in her case why the accusations came? Yes, but I don't believe she's an industry plant because she's still got a fan paste today, and it's not just a flash in the pan situation. Ice Spice is still doing commercials, she's still branding, she's still doing her thing right now. An industry plant, I think they're just trying to make a buck as quickly as possible. So it's in, out, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Let's ride this for however long we can, as quickly as we can, so that we can on to the next. Ice Spice is proving some longevity here. So I that's the part that makes me think, okay, this wasn't just an industry plant thing. We we we still care about her, we're still investing in her, literally and figuratively. So there's still something there. Angine Despotries. Why are they getting heat right now? Why are they getting the accusations right now? It's because musically, sonically, they're doing something different. And yes, aesthetically too. It's it's another situation where, ooh, we have a masked group. I think we have identified who the actual members of Angie Depotine are. I don't know their names. I haven't looked it up, but I'm pretty sure we do know who they are. It's not a sleep token situation, I'll put it that way. Um, but regardless, they're putting on these fun costumes. There's a polka dot theme happening here. They're again, they're also doing something different in a world where everything does seem very formulaic, very similar, and it just it there's just a sea of it right now. So anything that is the slightest bit different is gonna catch some attention. But then people are also gonna sit back and say, whoa, industry plant, because we don't trust how quickly this happened. The only way somebody can rise is if there's a puppeteer behind it all, right? No, not every instance. And this, let me be clear about this too. I'm not saying that industry plants don't exist. I'm sure they do. If they do, we'll never know about it. Not with any degree of documentation or certainty. But do I understand why people don't trust it and why they throw that word around at first, especially now when you see that everything is so curated? Yes. And then when you see the one outlier, you're like, whoa, the only explanation for this is that it has to be that. And it's like, no. Sometimes a little bit of thought and intention and I don't know, actual good music is enough to grow a fan base and rise quickly in the ranks anymore. And that's what I'm gonna say about that. This is what you know, what creates the accusations of industry plant are the moments when an artist is presented as independent while major backing already exists. We're talking hidden label deals, undisclosed management power, early PR infrastructure, which is marketed as DIY. You know, if the rise feels, we talked about this, unusually fast and polished. That's another example, immediate media placements, excuse me, major collaborations early in a career, polished branding before public familiarity. I tend to think that some of that happens once the business minds behind it all actually catch up and realize that something's taking off. Well, then they want to take that inch and make it a mile. That's what I think is actually happening there. But I understand that, you know, when the rise feels fast, polished, you kind of side-eye it. Another instance, I think, when you walk away with these accusations comes when the origin story feels strategically incomplete. You know, the public story suggests overnight success, overnight discovery, when in reality there's been some months or years put behind it. I mean, overnight success stories, when you think about it, happen in every industry, not just music. And if we're being really real, the core of that is networking and relationship building, which is unavoidable and not preventable. So, of course, it's gonna happen in music too. What I mean more specifically is if you're out here hustling, if you are out here doing the most with the connections and talking with people and really prioritizing, knowing who you should know in an industry, and talking with them about business and talking with them about making things happen together and delivering on both ends, right? And honoring commitments, okay. Well, then someone's more willing to do for you to help you, are they not? When you're proving yourself, when you're committed, yeah. And if they're the if they have the access, well, yeah, that's gonna earn it. Okay, I like to call it a buddy system. It's who you know, who's your buddy? Whoever your buddy is, you may or may not be able to use for access to something. And if somebody is really good at doing that, well then yeah, it could lead to a quicker rise up the ranks. So this is what I think an industry plant actually is. I think an industry plant is an artist whose rise is carefully engineered behind the scenes while the public is encouraged to believe that the success happened naturally. Like if that's the messaging, then it's sus. The key takeaway here is concealment. If any information about the origin of that artist, that band is concealed and dug up later, and there is some stuff that oh you can look at and say, okay, there's a Geppetto behind all this. You might have an industry plan. If any information presented originally is confirmed, false later, you might have an industry plan. The problem is, and this is where just like some of my frustration as a fan comes sometimes. The problem is there is absolutely no way, unless there's a leak, unless someone has been doxxed or whatever, to confirm or deny if anything about that man or artist has actually been hidden. And we do know that different artists have different types of promotional and financial backing. That is going to impact the level of what we know, don't know, and how intense the branding and storytelling of it all gets. Some are nepot babies, and that situation explains itself. There's no industry plant there. That's a nepotism thing. Some really did just get lucky. Some network really well, and they take off those ways. It happens. It's normal for all of those to happen. There is a number of reasons as to why someone's career blows up. Think about it this way. I'm gonna use Sleep Token as an example here because first off, it's a little more of a recent example, and they have also fallen under similar accusations. Sleep Token, when they went through that, when they went through the accusations of being industry plants, you know, they got those accusations, but most of us don't even know the confirmed identity still to this day of who's actually in the band. So how can we check their history? How can we really confirm or deny that there is a Geppetto behind it all? How in that instance can we look at their financial backing, look at the origins of their promotion, all that stuff? I mean, for all we know, and honestly, this is my theory. I'm standing by this. I think, for all we know, sleep token consists of established artists who are supporting themselves in promotion, in financial backing, and just not telling us that they're that it's a DUI, not a DUI, DIY thing. And they don't want to reveal their identity because they're part of bigger vans, they're already established. That's honestly the theory that I'm running with here. And I don't know that it's an absolute certainty that they're being pushed by some suits behind a desk. I don't know that. Maybe now they are because now they're big and they earn. So that's I just feel like it's more likely CEOs, management, whatever you want to call it, higher-ups, higher-ups, the upper echelon, the upper echelon true decision makers who make everybody else do their bidding. I'm talking about those situations. I think they're not as perceptive or superhuman as sometimes we make them out to be. I do think there are some that catch on later. And then they start to see, oh, this is selling, so now we're gonna pivot and put all of our literal and figure figurative investment into this. We don't know. Of course, there's no confirmation of any of this. So, unless we see literal receipts, we don't really know if an artist is an industry plant, and the general public will not have access to that information. And this is what's gonna lead me to my final thoughts here on the subject because the topic itself is kind of like it's kind of cliche and boring now to me to call somebody industry plant because it's like, dude, it's so like it this has happened so many times now. We've called so many people industry plants now, so many artists have gotten this label that are still around and still here today, and still somehow have connected with a fan base that still fuels what they're doing today, years later. So I come on, you can't say that that's the only reason for their longevity. You can't say that that's the only reason be, you know, being an industry plant is the only reason they're on someone's radar at all when there's some longevity behind it. I I don't know, that's just how I feel about it. Because some information is left to speculation, though, about these artists and their origins, or we just don't have access to the juicy stuff that would confirm or deny actual industry plant behavior. We're not going to know for certain if they are. Even if they were. It is up to us fans to decide how sustainable they really are. We're the ones buying the tickets, we're the ones buying the merch, we're the ones that are streaming, making content about them. We decide who stays and who goes. Because, like I said, I don't think that all of C-suite is as perceptive. They catch on later sometimes, after the fact, sometimes. So if we got a whiff of anything we didn't like, industry plan or not, they're done. Or condemned for at least a period of time. So let's chill a little bit before making assumptions and forming opinions. Let's let action speak louder than words, and more importantly, give the music a chance. Good music is still good music. Good music is still what's talked about, what's purchased, whatever word you want to throw in there. Good music is good music. None of this has to be this deep if we don't want it to be. If you want it to be, all right. If not, that's okay too. Let people do what they do and respond in a way that you are okay with. You ultimately get to make the choice as to whether you scroll away, don't buy that ticket, don't buy that merch, whatever. You get to make that choice ultimately at the end of the day. So, more often, I think we have more power than we realize. If you get a whiff of something that you don't like, you don't have to partake. And because of that, I question the legitimacy of these industry plant accusations. Because, okay, even if they are, well, then we still get the choice. Even if we do find out later that it's confirmed there was some puppeteering happening, there's some odds behind it all. Okay, well, then again, we still get to make the choice as to whether or not we support that, and we we do that to send a message. We would do well to understand that we can send a message very quickly, very clearly, and very efficiently and powerfully with numbers. If enough people say, this ain't for me, okay, the big wigs are gonna pay attention. So let's not forget that. If you like what you like, like it, support it. If you don't, great, don't support it. Don't support it, you don't have to. You can very easily scroll away, you can very easily not purchase that concert ticket, you don't have to buy that merch. I critique capitalism, but the one thing I do like about it is that you do have a choice. You can choose what you purchase, you can choose what you don't purchase. And that's what I'm gonna leave you with this week, my friends. Thank you so much, Vigorous Ones, for exploring this topic with me. And I there may have been some hot takes here, but I would love to hear what you have to say in any comments that you see this at or you know, YouTube, like and subscribe, all that good stuff. Let me know what you think about industry plants, whether they exist, whether they don't actually exist. I I always have questions whenever I hear the accusations. And I honestly can't think of, and please, again, correct me if I'm wrong, if you see this on social media, but I don't know. I can't think of an instance where industry plant anybody tied to that. I can't think of an instance where that was actually confirmed for anybody. I I don't I can't think of one. I can't think of one. If you can, please correct me because that would be interesting to me and I would like to look into that. But I I don't think so. So let you take the driver's seat here, is what I'm getting at. Remember, remember that you are in control, and remember that you can choose what you're into, what you're not into, make up your own mind, and it's never has to be that deep. That's what I will leave you with today. We will see you next week. Bye.