Vigorously with Val Kleinhans
Vigorously with Val Kleinhans, includes artist interviews, conversations with creatives, and solo reflections from me that go past promo and into the real human side of creativity.
Candid conversations that go beyond the surface — exploring who artists are, how creators think, why music matters, and what inspires the work we connect with.
Through interviews, solo reflections, and commentary on artist news, Val explores the psychology of creativity, the pressure of visibility, and what modern music culture is doing to artists and fans behind the scenes. Vigorously.
New episodes go live on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube weekly.
Inquiries: val.kleinhans@gmail.com
Vigorously with Val Kleinhans
Joey Vesely on Trace Remains, Creative Evolution & Pittsburgh Pride
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Val and Joey Vesely of Trace Remains reminisce about their hometown (Pittsburgh), the new Zero Hour EP, and the importance of flexibility when adapting to the ever changing music industry.
Stream the Zero Hour EP: https://open.spotify.com/artist/5xnmynY7Zj625B0XAuwU2h?si=7-1F20HGTRKp4g1WwuFc9w
Get more Trace Remains: https://www.instagram.com/traceremains/?hl=en
Get more Val at https://valkleinhans.com/
It's a myth. Let's settle this though because sometimes like this is gonna be a hot taste for anybody from our hotel listing. This is gonna be a hot take that I swear to you. I really only heard games used maybe a handful of times in real life. But they made it. Welcome to a very final episode of Vigorous League, one that is especially close to my heart because I get to talk to my hometown today and I am thrilled. Shout out Joey from Trace Remains in the building. I am so thrilled to have you. It's good. It's good to be talking to home today, man.
SPEAKER_04I'm so thrilled to be here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00I know I missed it so much. I haven't really kept uh you know as closely with the scene since I left like 13 years ago. But you can fill me in. Fill me in on like what's happening musically in my hometown. Oh I mean, I remember a lot a healthy hip-hop scene, I remember a healthy country scene, and definitely a healthy rock scene. What's happening now?
SPEAKER_06I would say all of those still probably, and you add like electronic scenes. So there's been like a lot of DJs. That's been like a big thing, I would say. That's gone from like more underground rave stuff, which still happens, you get some of that, but where honestly a lot of clubs just had started to have DJ nights more than fans or original artists. So um it's been like a mix of that, I'd say. I'd say it's the bit probably been the biggest transformation. Maybe a little bit. I mean, I'm I'm speaking from a place of ignorance, but maybe a little bit of slowing down in the hip-hop scene, a little bit too relative to when the last time you were here. But again, I could be speaking from a place of ignorance. I know there are some really good hip-hop DJs that throw really big parties, but it's not quite the same as original acts performing stuff. Um, and then a very deep rock scene, like is always from what I could tell, with a lot of degrees of sub-genre, crossover, and you know, it it's man, I feel like I feel like Pittsburgh has always had a great crust scene. Yeah. Um, so like what's the big fest? Skullfest is big, and you know, like bands like Oz Rotten and the Subhumans from the UK would always come through. And so I feel like that scene's still really healthy. And then yeah, all the different stuff that you get in indie rock, you know, like um a lot of shoe gays or maybe some people now call grunge gays.
SPEAKER_00But that's where you fit.
SPEAKER_06That's where I would say, yeah, a bit. I would say for sure, for sure, for sure. Um yeah, so I don't know if that answers your question, but but I feel like that's my kind of cursory lay of the land.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's it's interesting. I can't like now I want to pay more attention. My next trip, I want to pay more attention now, particularly with the hip-hop stuff, because I left right at the height of Mac Miller and was Khalifa.
SPEAKER_05Like right now, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I left like right like 2013, like right around there where the world was starting to know both of those names.
SPEAKER_05I was like, Right, right.
SPEAKER_00No, I don't want to leave right now. The party's just getting started.
SPEAKER_06But you know, well, probably to be honest, they didn't leave short too shortly, like after you or too shortly before you, I would say. Like whenever, however, so yeah, and I would I wouldn't think there's ever really been too much. I mean, let's even go from a place of ignorance. Who knows? There's probably tons of stuff happening underground that you just never know of. But that's always I feel like since then those have still been the biggest names from Pittsburgh and whether or not the energy of those two artists have been replaced. Yeah, I don't know. You'll have to report back. I will, and let everybody know next time you're here, or just let me know. You discover a cool show and say, Hey Joey, let's meet there and we'll we'll go check it out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, smiling moons. I wish, I wish, I wish, I wish. Lots of good nights there, lots of good nights in the halls, all the above, even Stage AE, like they they've stepped it up, definitely. Yeah, they have. Stage AE has some great shows.
SPEAKER_06I hadn't been outside there for to see a show until I think last summer, believe it or not. All my years of being in Pittsburgh. I'd seen plenty of shows indoors, which I've enjoyed, ship my shows indoors there. I feel like it always sounds really good no matter where you move around the room. And um, you know, it was always a good viewing angle to the band and stuff like that. And yeah, but outdoors was also really a great vibe. I saw I saw Justice play there, sort of like electronic group, and then Crungbin, which I don't know what you characterized them as more of like rock, kind of jammy. Um not really ethereal, but yeah, real vibey. So having that outside on like a nice hot summer night was awesome. They're really cool. Um, yeah, but stage I'm great. I love that spot. I love for for the bigger acts, so I think it's a really cool space. Talking about the Civic Arena before we kind of officially kicked off in your poster there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, oh that's me. I stole it. Oh, I feel yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um, but they've got a new venue. I forget what they're calling it. Um they're gonna start having shows there in the fall, but it's like I think sort of like a stage AE style level cap. Have you heard like Cap venue? Have you heard of this place? No, yeah, so it's it's supposed to be pretty cool, like right where the Civic Arena used to be, next to where they built um PPG Paints, which I don't know if you've been to any shows there.
SPEAKER_00I've been there, I saw Aerosmith there on their very last nice the last one. That was the last time I was there.
SPEAKER_06Nice. Yeah, I've seen a couple of shows there. I saw Radiohead play there. It's been a hot minute now. Um, I saw Jay-Z play there.
SPEAKER_00Nice.
SPEAKER_06Um, I think I think Paul McCartney played there last year. A lot, a lot of a lot of groups come through there, but um, there's I don't know if that means now there won't be as many shows there because this new venue is sort of taking over.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um because that's officially like a hockey venue or whatever. But yeah, so some new places that are huge, and then there's always like the underground, there's always like house shows and um old school standbys, like smalls and stuff.
SPEAKER_00I need to pay closer attention. And I love that you just grab some of these pants as by me. I think that's all we can do lately with all the genre blending. Yeah, we're just the up and coming. I mean, is that you've been doing this for a minute? Is that something you feel like you're seeing more of in music? More of the genre blending in general.
SPEAKER_06You know, maybe maybe just because time passes and people have to try to think, continue to find ways to uh uh just make unique unique things and unique sounds, and then those things continue to influence uh, you know, not just the people making them, but other people that hear it for the first time. And then I also think a big difference is just the compression of space and time with streaming and the access to so much music. You know, I think before digitalization or like just increased the you know, just you know, the the quantity of music that you could hear. It it sort of was there was a more of like a natural consumption to it too that maybe led to a different rate of evolution in genre blending, so to speak. But um, yeah, I don't know if I ever, I mean, I feel like people are always on the hunt to try to do something new, and then ultimately you're just like, maybe this is just like recycled, but just in a fresh way, which I ultimately think is mostly what it is. Um, and I don't even mean that in a bad way. That's like the way we are too, I think. I you know, and I think inadvertently you ultimately just like things that you really love and were very indelible to you when you were first discovering music and really resonated, always find their way out into or into things, whether they're easily identifiable to you or somebody else or not. Like if you pay attention to your archaeology enough, you'll be like, Oh yeah, I can see that that's like coming out. So I don't know. Sometimes I think maybe it's just a function of how much stuff people are listening to as well. But um, I don't know. I'd be interested to see what you think about that. Do you feel like people have been like more and more and more like it's just like a conscious thing, or it's just like a function of like just so much more music being made, or so many more people making music and listening to music for, you know, just across a broad range?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I feel like it's all of the above. I feel like not only are we just seeing more output, and that's naturally gonna lead to the comparisons, that's naturally gonna lead to the well, let me pick this influence out and then this influence out, and then this influence out. You know, as you hear different things, you're gonna compare it to different things, and it's gonna sound like whatever it is that you uh are familiar with before to try to make it make sense in your own head. We've done that before, we've done it, we've we're doing it now, we're doing it since. We're also seeing a lot more of an output. And I think the other part of the equation is that fans are more receptive to it now, particularly younger fans. Like before, and I mean, certainly in you know, heavy music, what what is punk is punk, what is metal is metal, what is this subgenre is this subgenre, period, and a discussion. Sure. Yes, sure, there is some of that, but I think now, particularly in the heavy music scene, we're willing to be a little bit more flexible with it. Yeah, and other genres I don't think had as much of a problem with it. But I I think now, particularly this fan base, we're we're a little bit more receptive to it. So once marketers see that, branding, all the above, the artists themselves, the bands themselves, now that they're seeing that audiences are receptive to it, they're saying, okay, then it's go time. I've always wanted to experiment. Now's my chance. Let me take that. I mean, you've been around long enough to watch the industry, the music industry change, the Pittsburgh C change, technology change, but you're keeping up. What makes you keep trying? You are, I can I can see you you are, and but not everybody is so receptive to uh learning and being that open-minded. You are what what makes you so open?
SPEAKER_06Oh man, um what a great question. I don't know. I I think I just try to not get too stuck with just the types of tools that you have available to you. I think for me with music, I've you know, music really just always really kicked my ass and and blew my mind. And it, you know, so just participating in the process, I've always just found a love for it. And the tools of the time to me are largely irrelevant from a perspective of like I said I'm agnostic about it. Like um, or what there's the old adage, hate the game, not the player. I try to think about it like that. Like it just the game is what it is and and the tools are what they are. Um, and if you continue to have a hunger for something that feels like it's just a part of what you how you breathe air and live life, and just sort of like I feel I feel like if you feel compelled enough to have your eyes open enough with life and and in the world that um as creatives you know, you oftentimes just feel like there's this I don't know, pool inside to just get that perspective out. And whether people value it or find anything in it or not is largely irrelevant, I think, for the purity of the exercise of it. Um you know, all separate from like the business end and all these other things that we can kind of get into. But yeah, I think for me it's uh it's not like I it's a love affair every day, but I I think the longer I've lived life and had a continual blessing to play music and to be in bands, and uh the longer I travel the road, it just I really just have a love of the process and a love of the game, I guess, so to speak, even though a lot of the business stuff um in the modern era drives me crazy. But it did just as much when I was coming up in bands, but for different reasons. So I don't know if that answered your question at all. Um, I just I'm very curious in life, and yeah, what's the other cliche? Like the learning never stops. I really truly believe that. And that also, I guess one final thing on that topic. It's like, you know, you never have the you never have all the answers, and you never know as much as you think you know. And I think as soon as you get comfortable realizing, yeah, like I don't really know anything actually. Um, and the more comfortable you become with that, it's just the easier it is to just try new shit or whatever else, and just say, well, I'm just you know, I don't know. I love being a part of this shit. And definitely like the longer I've done it too, it's interesting to not just see all the evolutions as you mentioned, but scenes change, and you know, scenes largely rotate around younger groups of people, and you know, being the old head a lot in shows or whatever is definitely like an interesting thing to, you know, especially because I used to be the baby, so now it's just like so different. But uh, you know, I don't really to your point about people and genre blending and appreciating all kinds of things. I really think that's true with music now because again to the space-time compression, the way people filter is just different, and that brings a lot of I think negative externalities now, but one of the positive externalities is some of that old school filtering doesn't happen, or those silos aren't as specific anymore. So um, you know, the only constants change, I guess. So you get comfortable with that and just uh I don't know. So I don't know if that answers anything you can do. It does.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's it's it's the the passion is the drive. And when you combine that with what I know is the Pittsburgh culture of look, if I'm doing a job, I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna work as hard as I possibly can at it and see it through. That's that's definitely that's part of the culture. I mean, Pittsburgh is still very full of working working class people who uh they want to know that they can trust you before they invest emotionally. And it does take a minute, it does take a minute before we open up. So you, however, have been able to build community in an environment where it does take a minute for people to warm up. How did you do that?
SPEAKER_06Oh man, I well, I've just it I think like when I first moved to Pittsburgh, it was just before digital, you know, streaming and social media and all that stuff, so the whole world was analog. Um and the the community more so is anal, even more so. And you know, the all of the culture around fanzines and like trading mixtapes. I mean, like just the notion that you could learn more about this subculture that you were so excited about, but really only through community participation sort of provided a really interesting platform for growth and participation, and I think investment by people, but it definitely took time. Like, I mean, I remember like the first band I tried to form, like it wasn't easy getting shows right away, and then you sort of have to build trust and be seen more, and then just sometimes fall into the right bands with certain people, and then you know, okay, well, I got that show, and then you know, that kind of opened that door. And um, but I think most of it, at least in the I would hope I would think in the early days and all the way through now, is like when we play live, like in any form of band I've ever been in. I I really try to just my attitude is like, man, I'm coming for every plank on the stage, and that's no like that's no like shade to anybody I'm playing with that night. Like I'm always humbled and blessed to play with everybody we've always played with. And you know, we always keep a running detailed list of all the bands we've ever played with and all the shows we've ever played, and um, but it's more of like a philosophical thing for me to get up.
SPEAKER_00This is my time. Let's go.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. And I think like just always doing that, whether it was one person or like a couple hundred, like it, I think over time people like to your point about earning trust, like one of my core of ethos is just like that time and health are our most precious assets. And I and I don't take I try not to take people's time for granted. And you know, one one thing for us always in our lives is like every second, every millisecond, a grain of sand is running through that hourglass. And I try not to be overly dramatic about that, but I just think it's really true. And like it's a good barometer for how to treat people, and I think having a sense of appreciation and it doesn't mean everything will always click or you always vibe or that people always dig your shit or whatever. But I think if you can kind of take the approach that everybody's time and attention is valuable, nobody owes you shit. Um, nobody's gonna roll out the red carpet for you, nor should they. And if they are, you should probably step back and ask yourself why, because it's gonna be something else.
SPEAKER_00That's also still Pittsburgh. That is also still Pittsburgh. I run into that all the time here where I'm like, and you're leaving your front door unlocked. What are you and you're telling people you're going on vacation? Are you insane? Like you, you're you're you're inviting somebody to like take something valuable. Like that just that type of thing. Like you would never do that back home. Here, it's different. It's different. The sense of community and how they build it is completely different. They they want that exchange of information because that means they're looking out for each other. Yeah, not at home, and that's not and that's not to say that they don't care, but it's survival. It's it's it's it's it's self-preservation.
SPEAKER_06And it's about it's emotional survival, as you said as well. You know, there's a there's an economic thing to it, and I think there's an emotional thing to it as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's just so interesting. You do a lot of what you do, DIY. I think most artists do anymore. I mean, really. What so is there something rebellious about doing it that way? Like just staying independent. Like, I think there is a little bit of staying that staying that way, staying that course when yeah, you could choose another option, but nah right now we're good doing everything DIY.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and I think in today's day, an age that's made it even that the facilitation of like how to facilitate DIY is like you because the tools have changed, um they lend themselves in many ways towards being having a higher probability of success doing things DIY. Um but that's like a sidecar. Like for me, I've just it's all I've ever really known how to do because again, I guess this is very maybe not even just very Pittsburgh, it's just very, I guess, hardcore and punk rock. It's like that's just what you know. There's like nobody was coming to do anything for you. So it's just like if you wanted to put out a record, you had to do it. If you wanted to put out a zine, you had to kind of figure it out. Like, um, and that took other punk rockers or music people or underground stuff to like spread the knowledge. And and I think that's just eventually through putting out records or booking shows in other cities in particular, like you just it all comes from this place of underground grassroots, and um frankly, that's just all I've ever known. And nowadays it happens to just be I think the barriers to entry are so much lower for everything. So it makes it makes a lot of elements harder because the saturation point is just so much more pronounced for everybody. So how you filter through that is a real challenge, um, and not something to be discounted, to be honest. But um oh sorry, my rice cooker just went off. Sorry if that because the funny noise. Um, but yeah, we've just always been, it's just always how we've done business. And I'm not I've never been averse to good partnerships if they make sense. Um, but there's just never been anything presented to us that made sense, and um, it really has been more about building out our team with personnel on a DIY basis or a partnership basis to help us either grow in this area or maybe recognize this blind spot here where we're not so good, or um, you know, so somebody can maybe lend a hand through with that. And so I don't know. Yeah, that's just kind of the way it's always been.
SPEAKER_00It's self-preservation. If you know, if one thing is gonna ensure that I'm doing this for the long haul for as long as I possibly can, it's me taking care of things myself.
SPEAKER_06Sure.
SPEAKER_00Or at least doing that as much as possible.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, well, because it's like that thing too. Like, um, if you want something done right, do it yourself. I think that's like so true in so many years, and nobody's ever gonna care as much as you are. Nobody's gonna fucking care.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you know, your mom or you know, you know, your baby brother or sister, maybe, but like you know, so consistency, but consistency is consistency ends up being longevity. You know, yeah, maybe maybe it doesn't work out perfectly as you planned it, but you're still showing up. That's always going to count more for than anything.
SPEAKER_07I thought for sure.
SPEAKER_00You I mean, you've watched that happen, you've experienced that as a band. Every band hits those moments where it's easier where you know they're reassessing and they're thinking maybe it's easier to stop than continue on. But what is how the time?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So what is how Trace Remains, like power through that and survive those moments and say, no, we're still here. I still want to be here.
SPEAKER_06You know, it's funny. Anytime I have like a moment where I'm like, hi, you know, maybe this runs up, maybe this has run its course or whatever, um, a new song will come up, or there will just be a new idea, or like there will be an opportunity to play show, or like something like that would be very organic and natural. Like it it's and you know, and sometimes it's just a matter of of taking a step back and figuring out and really doing an honest assessment of what you want. And then I think once you can hopefully come to a decision point, you just then you lean in. And for me and for us, it was like we had a record that was sitting out there that was the first thing that we did several years ago, and then it got shelved, and we never released it. And um, that record got recorded shortly after like COVID, like things started kind of opening up after the pandemic, and so we recorded that record, and then it kind of sat. We ultimately released two singles from it, and that was like the first things that we offered to the world, and then it was like you know, then we had another record that we released, it was the Leverage of Tides record in 2024. And I think it was just that project was very specific vision, and we just that was exciting. Um, and then once you're committed to the bit, it was like, all right, like I'm not, it's it's not easy every day, but part of I think discipline and part of the work is continuing to push through the moments where there's a lot of rejection or it's hard, or like you're suffering from that imposter syndrome, and it's just but I just I know I've learned that that's just part of it. I think probably even some of the biggest artists in the world that you would think have the biggest egos from a public perspective, you know, privately, you know, and and whether that's because you're always trying to grow, you're always trying to reach for the next thing, or you just are still that, you know, 10-year-old kid in your bedroom trying to lip sync to a song or whatever. Like, I don't know. I I think it just you uh you know, you gotta like if you love something enough, you'll naturally find a way to stick to it. And if you don't, that's also okay too. Like, I don't think you know, I think that's also like one thing I've at every decision point I've tried to make the assessment. If I did step back from this and sort of say, hey, okay, I'm gonna shelve this project or do it at a less aggressive rate, am I okay with that? And I think the answer has typically always been no, which is why I always keep going to and I've I've I don't I've think I always think to myself, I'd like to ra I'd rather live in failure, not regret. And when I get to more of the end of the line in my life and I have this opportunity to kind of like look back and look over the things that I could have done or I did do or could have taken a risk on, I I know that I don't want to look back and feel like, well, the reason I didn't do that was because I was just afraid. I definitely don't want that to be the case. Sometimes you just don't have the resources, or you can't, or you have other responsibilities, or there's you know, life just life's on you, and that is what it is. But when you have the opportunity to lean into a passion and really try to go for it, I think if you know you might look back and have regrets, you owe it to yourself to keep trying until maybe you hit a moment where you're like, hey, you know, I think I I gave that shot. I that's I sat in the I stood in the batter's box and I took a lot of swings at pitches, and you know, I'm really comfortable saying, Hey, I don't want to do that anymore. But for me, I don't know.
SPEAKER_04I just um I just keep rolling.
SPEAKER_00As long as the answer to that is still no, you should do it. Anybody that's genuinely passionate about anything, just do it because you we we talked about this before. The time is still finite, it's not it's not dispersed, like and it goes fast, and it does go by fast. Try your hardest to make the best of it that you absolutely possibly can. It's nice to hear that the desire to be creative and the enjoyment behind being creative is part of the passion here, and that's part of the fuel that keeps you going. When did you realize that you were creative and liked being around other creative people?
SPEAKER_06Oh man, I think you know. So my mom always really encouraged me to do a lot of crazy stuff. Um, so when I was just a real little kid, I mean, we would do uh they my parents had me learning piano from like five or six, and my mom had me do like child acting and modeling and you know, creative summer camps and stuff. So I think I always had a natural aptitude towards it. Um but I think what it really clipped was just hearing rock and roll on the radio for the first time. Like I when I was really young, I heard Bon Jovi's You Give Love a Bad Name and on the radio, and I remember that just like I was like, whoa, that stuck with me. And then and then when I probably when I heard Smells Like Teen Spirit when that came out, and I was in elementary school, and that just rocked my world, and I think like then like a lot of figuring out bands and wanting, and then it just became a whole world, you know, and and underground music and playing in bands and watching bands. I think that really just struck a nerve with me. It felt like it was this continual path from when I was this young boy that just loved entertainment, I think really just loved sound, like that whole world of creativity just really felt like my tribe and always kind of has been. And I think the longer I've felt a part of that tribe, I've just wanted to continue to hone my craft and try to get better at it and sharpen the blade. And like, okay, if I'm gonna take the time to make this myself and then offer it to the world in a way where I might be marketing it to see if people are interested in it. Well, now they're gonna commit their time to it. Let's try to make it the best I can make it. And I think it's easy to say that, but I don't think it's always easy to do that.
SPEAKER_00No, um easier said than done. Yeah, sometimes external things make it hard, but when you latch onto something, especially at such a young age, like you're talking about, it does have a hold. I can't explain it in any other with any other verbiage. It just it has a hold, like it captivated you for a reason. So why not roll with it? There's something something resonated, and Pittsburgh does love Bon Jovi. I know New Jersey claims Bon Jovi, and they can rightfully sell, but don't get it twisted. Pittsburgh does love Bon Jovi. They do Bon Jovi.
SPEAKER_06They do sell when they come to town, like they do, and and I think I think with music for me, it's like it's the thing that before we even had spoken language, we were uttering sounds as to replicate emotional pull and feel. And I think when you when from as a child that resonated with me, and like um going to church, like I was raised Catholic, it's not something that really stuck around. But um, you know, once I became a teenager and stuff, but I you know, pretty consistently every Sunday, my parents would take me to church. And um, you know, I that my favorite part was always the music, like there were songs that I always liked to hear, everything else was just felt like so boring and just a drag, and just I don't know. I I never extracted much value, but something about the emotional pull of the music to represent some spiritual approximation of something was I think that resonated with me. And so then something about performance of rock and roll and then punk rock and all these other things that I got into probably are somewhat rooted in that, which I don't want to overplay that oh, music is always just a spiritual thing, but it's definitely a deep thing for me. Maybe spiritual is an overstatement every time I would refer to it, but it's certainly something heavy and something that I take very serious, and I think plays an important role in a lot of people's lives.
SPEAKER_00It's an emotional thing for some more than anything. But I I love hearing about the church like upbringing though, too. Is is it possible that maybe you bring or brought some of what you used to see with the choirs and all that into what you're doing today?
SPEAKER_06Probably, probably somewhere. I mean, I think there's in our music uh there's a lot of journeys, I think, emotionally, and you know, things build into arts. Um I think church music replicates that because it's uh you know, you're trying to emulate the type of worship, I guess. So maybe there's you know, um an extra emphasis on simplicity of emotional weight in the music, you know, and maybe somewhere that translates into the goals of what we try to write, you know, and and try to draw the listener in in that way where they feel emotionally invested. So probably somewhere, maybe I don't know. It's so hard to say, you know. Maybe somebody could do like a psychological reading of me and tell me about that.
SPEAKER_00That's where it all started. That's where it all went downhill.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, right, right, right, totally. Like, man, you should have just stayed in the choir. You should have just like stuck it, stayed at the organ and played and sang songs.
SPEAKER_05But yeah, to me, it was always the most compelling part of church.
SPEAKER_00Origin stories are more like origin stories are more compelling than anything to me. They're always so fun, even especially when villains are involved. Especially when villains are involved. Let's talk about breathing air because this is a good time to bring it up. And particularly the video, because the video does tell this type of story. It is a revenge story, which I was like, okay, we're going like full-blown production with this. Like it could, it could have been a it could have been a two-hour movie and I would have been entertaining. It could have been. Like, I know we it really could have been. And I, you know, it's a revenge story for anybody that doesn't know. I I just I just want to make sure that everybody's okay though. Like the vampire that was sucking the life out of the other mascots that I was did he wear a bulletproof vest? Like Tom, please tell me about the making of this video.
SPEAKER_03It was rad.
SPEAKER_06I mean, we had never, yeah, I mean, every time we've made a music video, I've always tried to like not up the ante, but like tweak the formula, like try to try to do something fun with it. I've grew up in an era of music videos, and um, you know, they they're always, I think, meant to be accompanying statement pieces to the world that you're building and what you want the song to sort of say. It's an opportunity to, you know, maybe not just have some fun with some of the themes, but deepen them and stuff. So the springboard was like, once I knew that was going to be one of the singles, it was always like, well, okay, we established a certain world in zero hour, which was the first single. And so I talked with Max, the director, and we were like, what if we continued that story, but in a way that was standalone, where you could just see it on its own and it's totally fine. Um, you know, or if you saw them in tandem, it was like, oh wow, this is actually there's a little bit of an arc going on here. Um, I don't know. Have you seen the first video? Did you see the zero art video? If not, you'll have to check it out.
SPEAKER_00I didn't see that one, but it's gonna make more sense now. Check it out. I saw the running air one.
SPEAKER_06Check it out. You'll have to check it out and watch it in sequence and then see, and then you know, shoot me a shoot me a message afterwards, and I'll be interested to get your take on it. But yeah, we just it was I the concept was sprung out of that storyline and taking that character and saying, Okay, how can we play with some themes in the music um and lyrical themes, but raise the production because if you see zero hour, you'll see what I mean. Like that was the first video we tried to do some new stuff, and then with breathing air, it was like, okay, how do we maybe raise the bar even more? So shooting some squibs was part of it, which neither my myself or Max had ever done before. Um, and Max has done a lot of like short films and commercials and stuff up to this point, but never any like live action with that. So it was like with gunshots and stuff. So that was new territory for all of us. So we had to find some rad effects people locally that could do that, and but he did survive. You know, we did have, yes, like we did all it was it was a it was, you know, it was a full production, like all hands are on deck from a safety perspective. We had um, what do they call that? Like uh not an arms controller, but um well, there's a word for this, but safety coordinator, maybe yeah, safety coordinator, stunt coordinator, which we had, but then there was somebody that was specifically responsible for the for the gun and for the props management. Yeah, yeah. So there was a whole deal. So it was just it really just evolved through the concept where it was like, okay, well, if we try to do that, you know we have to kind of commit to this effect if we can pull it off. And then it just like a lot of these things, it becomes mission creep. You establish one idea, and then you're just like, okay, well, now we can't not go for it because now we're in it, you know. Yeah, we've just committed to it. And it was the same thing with like the motorcycle. Like, I had some ideas I always wanted to get in this one location, and I you know, over the years had sort of talked with some of my friends and people that you know I'd worked with about maybe the way to incorporate it, and then there was just never a sensible way.
SPEAKER_04But when Max and I were working on this concept, I was like, I think this is the first time we could maybe do it if you think you could pull off the shot.
SPEAKER_06And he's like, Yeah, so it was you know, it was a little bit of a dare mixed with a risk, maybe, um, for some of that stuff. But yeah, I think that's just natural evolutions and wanting to outdo yourself, which you know, I don't know what the fuck we'll do for the next one to sort of outdo that.
SPEAKER_00I think you gotta keep with the revenge theme. I or I think we gotta get to I think we gotta continue the story.
SPEAKER_06We are well, we are. It's I don't know if there's I mean, not to not to rule, you know, reveal our hand too much, but we are working on a third single or video for the third single, which would be out after the EP drops, but the goal would be to tell basically a trilogy across the three music videos and to have a whole arc and then have a version of it where all three videos you know sort of sequence together and make something out of that. Um, so we'll see. You know, it's kind of like uh the next project in the works to sew it all up.
SPEAKER_00Come on, Tarantino, let's kill buildings, let's do the tools.
SPEAKER_06Hey, don't you know, listen, you know, don't I can't reveal too much because if I say too much about kill bill, it might reveal too much.
SPEAKER_00But oh, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_03I'm just kidding. Okay, but that was a head fake. That was a head fake.
SPEAKER_00I like where that was going. What but for anybody that doesn't know, we're talking about the zero hour EP. Yes, it's on the way very soon. By the time this comes out, it will be out. And you you did mention, I've heard you mention before that breathing air specifically, that's the single that you might be most proud of of the entire thing. So, what about it are you most proud of?
SPEAKER_06It's proud. I mean, man, I don't know how to evaluate that because to be honest, I know a song is done at the end, end, and end of the line when I'm so sick of it that I think it's no longer good. But all up to that point, I was like, oh man, the world needs this. This is like the best thing. Like, this is all I can listen to. Um, you know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_07I think I think well, it's so to say I'm most proud of, man, that's so interesting. It's so hard for me to answer that. Let me give me a second to kind of get my words together for that.
SPEAKER_06I would say well, okay, so it's it's concise. I like the fact that there's it's very concise. It's like three minutes and 30 seconds or something like that. And to me, the magic numbers 333 with rock songs or singles at least, because it's especially today in day today's day and age with attention spans. I think it's important to try to focus, especially if you're unknown. If people don't, you know, if you're relatively unknown artist, it's important to, I think, focus people's attention, try to show showcase some of the best of what you have. Um, and yeah, I think that was a song that the way it came together was really um concise, and it was an idea I had that I was really excited about and felt like it was definitely one of the best song ideas I had had, really, that I had brought to the band. And um yeah, I think it just it really captures our energy really well. It you know, it's maybe a little bit more on the aggressive side for some of the stuff we do, especially once people hear the EP. There's um some more slower and vibey. I won't say slow songs, but there's stuff where the tempo slows down, gets a little bit more ambient and vibey. But breathing air is definitely like I think a very concise statement that grips pretty hard. It opens the EP. Um, so I don't know. I think I'm I think I'm most proud of it because it's done. We got it there. Um, it's the latest thing we're working on, and it's I love the video and I love the riff. And yeah, it's like, you know, all our songs are like kind of like I don't have any kids, so it's like they're all like um yeah little versions of kids.
SPEAKER_03So it's like it's the latest ones coming up in the world, you know. So it's like, okay, you know, we'll see how you do it, the young ones.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's the latest and greatest, you know. But you know, we have a feeder track called Please Disregard that's dropping a week from today. No, less than a week, next Tuesday. And it's sort of like the third and final single from the EP, which you know, the EP just drops a couple days after that on the 17th. But um, which, like you said, will be out by the time this video comes out, or by the time this interview comes out. So it's totally irrelevant. But um, you know, I probably if we were to have this conversation two weeks from now, I'd be like, no, no, no. This is the but that's my favorite.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't know. That's so hard. That's such a hard question, Val. Oh, I gotta think of, I gotta come up with a better answer for that one.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, while you think on it, I'll throw another one at you. There's obviously uh there's obviously uh a conscious effort to make these earworms something memorable, and yeah, doing it in a concise way helps toward that goal. How do you know what makes an earworm? Or uh is there some sort of formula that's involved here to where you walk away knowing, okay, I made this what I wanted it to be. I know that this is gonna resonate.
SPEAKER_06I'm gonna say there's a formula, I'm more I'm less there's probably less of formula and more for us. Um, and I can only speak specifically for us, obviously. I say it's more a process. Um, and that's involved all the people involved in Tracer Mains, the band itself. Um my producer and engineer Dave Heideck, who I've worked a lot with over the years and built a lot of trust with. Dave's a classically trained guy, and um, both from an engineering perspective as well as a compositional perspective. So he hears music in a very unique way and has really great ears. And I think it always starts with the emotional resonance behind a riff or an idea, and really I think how the how either the riff or the chord structure fits with the top line vocal piece, and not even lyrics, I wouldn't say, because to me the lyrics come later, but the top line melody is something that the kernel of that comes early on. And I think if those two pieces are doing the dance correctly early, then I feel like it's something that's worth presenting to the band. And then the band can kind of jam on it a bit and put it through their filter, and then inevitably something interesting is going to come out of that that I wouldn't be able to come up on my own or resolve on my own. Like I might have gotten it two thirds of the way there, and then it's like, okay, how do we make this more interesting? Or switch it up, or should the time signature change, or maybe this part goes there, whatever. And then the band helps with that. And then it kind of gets to Dave, and Dave will sort of um be like, oh, this is great, but let's maybe make the bridge the chorus, or you know, something like that that I couldn't really hear right away. So I would say, and not every song goes underneath goes undergoes that that specific process every time. Maybe that's as detailed and rearrangey as it gets, but it's like fair game for every idea, you know. And I would say that's largely how we build it. And it's it's an intuitive sense, though, for me, like when I evaluate something, if I'm evaluating a demo, there's so much stuff where I'm just like, nah, this just doesn't the dance just really isn't there, you know. And I don't know, I feel like if it if it if it speaks to me deep enough, then I I trust my filter enough and taste enough that within what I'm trying to do aesthetically with Trace Remains, that then I feel like, okay, this is worth moving on. But honestly, Val, like song the song the song, I think it's it's important to challenge yourself to make each time you do that tougher and tougher and tougher and tougher. Not to the point where you suffer for it, but you just don't rest on your laurels and you really trust yourself to keep pushing your line. Um, and then that there's a natural intuitive sense where it's like, okay, pencils down, like we're we're done. We can we're done with this. Um, but yeah, I wouldn't say there's a specific formula. I think there's just people within the village that I really trust, and friends that I've been, you know, music friends that I'm not in bands with, though, that I trust a lot. They either are in bands or that listen to a lot of music that I can send demos to early on, and you know, they can kind of be like, wow, this is one of the best things you've done, or you know, that just sounds like a B-side or whatever, and you know, some so you know, I don't know. I think um, and also developing thick enough skin to realize like maybe this hits for the first week for me, but it might be okay if it doesn't, and everybody else gotta try to keep developing a deep enough bench of ideas, which isn't always easy because kind of comes and goes with the seasons or you know how things are rolling in your life or whatever. Um, and or however you carve out a pocket of work, which isn't always waiting around for your muse, you know. I think sometimes it's about discipline and consistency to try to carve out some stuff. And you know, you sit down, and sometimes it's about inspiration. Sometimes it hits me in my head, and I'm like, ah, I gotta go work on that and crank it out. And other times it's like, you know, let me sit down at the piano right now, and let's try to like just bang on something. And before you know it, maybe something's popping up, maybe something isn't. Um, but yeah, I would say anything's fair game, depending on what the rhythm of the season is for work production. And I try not to make any rules about it, but trust my ear ultimately. Um, and then trust my feedback I get from there from the people that I really value.
SPEAKER_00It sounds, yeah, it sounds like it boils down to a philosophy, and that philosophy is it'll all reveal itself in time on its own time, and giving it the breathing room to do that, and and being patient enough to allow for that.
SPEAKER_06I definitely think that's true. I mean, I think sometimes there's pieces of music too that just aren't ready yet. Um, maybe you're not ready to fully develop them yet. Like I've found that for myself. I mean, there's a song on the CP that the demo idea is probably 10 years old. Um, and so just but it wasn't quite its time to flourish, or it wasn't well, I didn't have this the skills or the tools yet to really maybe give it the proper form that it deserves. So yeah, I think sometimes understanding that there's maybe a give and a take with that too. So you can't get too attached to ideas all the time as well. And sometimes it's keep going, keep keep coming up with new stuff and and keep pushing because it's it's so much of the battle is that it's staying excited to keep working on new stuff, you know, especially if the juices aren't always flowing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um, so yeah, sometimes it's just yeah, for whatever reason, the the the forum isn't ready. You're like you as the vessel just aren't ready. It's like just not there yet. Let it go. Just let it go, let it come whenever it's ready, let it cook, and then it's surf it circles back through the lazy river and then just like things back around you. Oh yeah, I'm gonna jump on the tube now.
SPEAKER_00And now we're ready. Exactly. That it is some of this what's involved when you're making the choice to put out zero hour as an EP versus a full-length album, like letting it reveal itself in time and then using that process to make that informed decision as to whether to turn it into some a full-length album or EP.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I would say yes and no. I would to be, if I'm fully honest with you, with zero hour, it was more like we had we had three songs that were done for that. And there it that was all we had recorded, and there was like some like I had had some new demos floating around, but it it when it we started to talk about releasing those three over the course of that conversation, three songs, three other ones got developed, and then it sort of became we kind of locked into some things with making some videos and some dates with the releases, and then it became a very natural sort of like sort of like okay, that's what we have, and I don't say necessity became the mother of invention in this case, but probably more so in this instance than would be typical. Like, I I would say, like, for the last record, like you know, maybe out of like two dozen songs, 10 of them became things that we worked on. So it, but in this case, it was just different for whatever reason. I don't know if it was we felt like maybe there was a bit of a lull in releasing something new and that we had some new ideas that we were really excited to sort of get to, too, I think. Um because right now, you know, truth be told, that's we're we're in a place where there's nothing new recorded and it's all just new ideas. So it it's it really will be probably more the instance where we'll have a bunch of material again, and then we'll sort of evaluate where that stuff is sonically and just where thing what the best material is and how it's all coming together. I feel like that's always a very natural sort of editorial process. Um, even if it feels painful, ultimately in retrospect, you'll look back and be like, yeah, there was a natural rhythm to that, which I think for the next you know, cycle of music will probably be more like that. But for this one, it was interesting. It was more like um two distinct batches of music that really made a lot of sense together. And then we had locked into some logistics, and it was like, yeah, let's just this is a pretty concise statement that ended up also being a pretty natural evolution. Um, because there was even some discussion. I was like, well, maybe I'll just release all of these as singles and it won't come together as an EP and it'll just, you know. But there was a very natural flow once I sequenced it, and I was like, oh, this works out pretty well. So um, yeah, I'd like to tell you that it was all part of a strategic plan for this one, but less so than but less so than normal.
SPEAKER_00You let it tell you what to do. That's my target philosophy. I walk in that store, it tells me what to buy. I don't know what I'm buying. That's just what it that's just what happens. So we just get sucked in. But no, no, in all seriousness, it's it's you're letting the music tell you, okay, there's a cohesive element here, and maybe there's not enough for a giant full-length album, but there is enough for MEP, and that's what we're gonna do. That's how we're gonna present it. Just let it tell you how it presents itself, whatever that is.
SPEAKER_06Definitely that all of that is true, and we also actually had expanded to play with a third guitar player, so we were technically a five-piece, and we had had these songs which were three songs, which we was the first recorded music with our third guitar player. And I think there was also just a genuine excitement to get some new stuff out there and represent that era of the band. So yeah, you know, you know, like you said, it just we flip, you know, you went we went into the record store and just started flipping through covers, and I was like, oh yeah, cool. Comes together really naturally. I'm gonna buy this one at the store and roll with this.
SPEAKER_00Yep. That's how it is. So if somebody listens to Tracer Wings for the very first time, what do you hope they walk away understanding about you as a band and your sound?
SPEAKER_06I would hope people just you know, listen and you know, okay, there's like an edge to it, like we rip it. Um, and then I would hope that the listener feels like there was emotional depth to the songs. Um and then ultimately took them on a bit of a journey in that respect. And then I think ultimately that they just felt like it was worth their time, not a waste of it. And at the bare minimum, um, even if they don't fuck with the sounds, you know, it was like, yeah, that wasn't a waste of my time. This guy's like got something going on. Um, I think that's like all I ever really wish for. I'm a humble person. Um, and if and if people like love it, man, I'm geeked, you know. Um but yeah, I would hope they just appreciate it for um maybe not at the level of originality because we're just playing rock and roll music, but I think we really try to take our influences and build something pretty unique sounding out of that. Um, and then I would hope people have an appreciation for that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I also hope that whenever they're telling the story of Trace Remains, whenever you guys are not in the room, humility is part of that equation. That's a theme I'm hearing here. Like, really, that that that that's a theme that I'm hearing. Like, hey, we're we're making sure that we're staying humble with all of this and treating it like a process, not something that we think we can manipulate or manufacture.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I mean, for me, that I it just goes back to the ethos or the philosophy, you know, that we talked about earlier in the conversation. I just I really value people's time, and I don't um I'm very gracious and excited when people like our songs or when we play shows and people dance and stuff, that like always really means a lot to me and um are some of my favorite moments in life to have this types of reactions. Um, but I don't take them for granted and I don't think I deserve them. And there's so much music that you could listen to in the world that if you take time to fuck with us, like thanks. Like I appreciate that a lot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I love where this is going. I can't wait to see where it goes next. Congratulations on the EP. Thank you so much for your time, Joey. This has been fun.
SPEAKER_05Thanks, pal. I appreciate it. Likewise, it's been great. It's great to talk to a fellow user.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's a myth. Let's settle this though, because sometimes I think it is.
SPEAKER_02I think it is, baby.
SPEAKER_00Let's uh this is gonna be a hot take for anybody from our hometown listening. This is gonna be a hot take, but I swear to you, I really only heard yins used maybe a handful of times in real life. And but they made it a thing, like it's part of Pittsburgh's branding.
SPEAKER_06It's now it's just part of the branding in the lore. I agree with you on that. Now it just isn't. I totally agree with you on that. The the accent of like yinzer is like a real thing for sure.
SPEAKER_00That's real, yeah.
SPEAKER_06But yins itself is a common word. I don't know. I don't I think that's yeah, I'm with you on that.
SPEAKER_00You have to you have to find a very specific person, like just for that to be used. Usually they're older, usually like somebody else around them was using it a lot, and then they just kind of picked it up. But it's not all the time. Like my own parents, my own parents don't really use it.
SPEAKER_06People make it sound like it's ubiquitous, like if you just go around pick what's where you're gonna get it. You just hear it.
SPEAKER_00Not not all the time, but it's it's fun to laugh at. Like for for me, it's fun to share with people that are local to me in Minnesota because they go, is that really what it's like? And I just yeah, I run with it. Yeah, oh yeah. That's what we do. Like, if that's what you think, sure. I'll I'll play along if that's what your image is in the head.
SPEAKER_06Like, go along with the bit, play the part for the plot.
SPEAKER_00Always for the plot.
SPEAKER_06I have it just uh, dude.
SPEAKER_00Well, Joy, thank you so much for hanging out with me. I can't wait for this to come out. Thank you for being here. Thank you. The zero hour EP is out now from Trace Remains. You've got a video, zero hour, the official video, and of course, breathing air, that video that we talked about in the interview, that is out now as well. Go to YouTube. I will give you all the links to install all the things to keep up with all the things in the show notes and of course.com where we recap every episode we ever do on vigorously with a guest in case you missed it. So you can get all the links there to go check this out at your leisure. But the EV is out now. Zero hour from Transformations. Or stuff. Go to Port. Thanks for joining me for another one. This was especially awesome to visit and made me very nostalgic. And now I'm gonna fly back home. I was gonna say. Thanks for joining me for another one. Bye!