Ep. 98 - Separate Is Sexy: Why Space Makes Love Stronger | With Intimacy Evolution's Mark and Bri Carey

Bourbon in hand, we take aim at a tender truth: kids don’t break marriages, unspoken change does. We sit with Mark and Bri, the duo behind Intimacy Evolution, to unpack how partners drift from lovers to roommates and how to stitch connection back into a life run by diapers, deadlines, and depleted energy. They share what most couples miss, bonding timelines differ, resentment hides under tiny fights, and presence beats problem-solving. You’ll hear the 4 H’s to ask for the right kind of support, why “tell me more” seven times gets to the heart, and how regular intimacy can be the simplest reset button.

We go inside men’s work with practical detail. Mark describes a free monthly men’s circle and immersive retreats where guys move from small talk to real talk, use breath work and embodiment to release stress, and leave better able to listen at home. Separate is sexy, within clear boundaries, because individuality feeds attraction. And we get personal: a mentor’s question pushed Mark and Bri to close a practice, sell a home, and move to Bentonville to build a new model for relationships. They explain why classic couples therapy often mismatches the stakes and how their two-on-two coaching with daily support prioritizes deep connection over rehashing old conflict.

If you’re tired of surface advice, this conversation offers tools you can use tonight: set a weekly state-of-us, try the 4 H’s before advice, create micro-rituals that spark closeness, and find a circle that holds you to your best. We want Northwest Arkansas, and your home, to be healthier, braver, and more connected. 

Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs a nudge, and leave a review with the one ritual that brings you and your partner back together.

Transcript

Bourbon, Banter, And Today’s Theme

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Welcome to the B Team Podcast. I am your host, Josh Saffron, with my co-host, Matt Mars, and our permanent guest, Rob Nelson. We're here every week to talk to you about all things Bettonville, bourbon, and business. The B Team Podcast. Be here. Welcome to the B Team Podcast. I'm your host, Josh Saffron, with my co-host, Matt Mars, who's also not sitting in his normal seat. So this is gonna be. Rob seat. Normally I'm looking, I have a much, much better view of here of a handsome couple, but normally Matt's sitting there and this is a little bit moving my cheese.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Well, I I feel like I'm kind of I'm being put in the corner to I don't know what's gonna happen here in a little while, but well, we we purposefully moved your chair because you may need some wooden tissues on this episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

I mean right between the two of us. Because this may be deep. We may we may open up some rooms. We may go back into your history and maybe the time with the with with the horse. What was the horse's name? Snoopy.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah. We may talk about Snoopy and growing up as a child. I mean, there's a lot. A lot of wounds.

SPEAKER_04 1:11

There's a lot going on here.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

We're every Thursday for all things Bettonville Business and Bourbon. And I got a Bardstown Ferrand. I'm sure I'm saying this wrong. So, Matt, I know you're not a huge Bardstown fan. I actually like Bardstown. You do? Yeah. Well, can I tell you the story? Because we're going to talk about relationships quite a bit today. I'm going to tell you the story, and you guys can maybe a little emotional and teary eye here. But uh my son is at uh at the University of Arkansas. I can't say what grade he's in because technically he's not legally allowed to procure alcohol, but let's just say that he knows somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody. And his roommate, um, I gave a nice Christmas gift to his roommate. He's a good kid, his name is Jones. Shout out to Jones. And he shows up at my house with this bottle. Really? This stuff's expensive. I know. And these are college kids. And I'm like, normally they bring a case of Bush Light. Shout out to Bush Light, right? But he shows up and brought me this bottle. Is it like the name of a horse? No, Ferrand. Good thing you asked. I did see that. But if it's a I think that's the logo for this Ferrand. So maybe it was like almost a Ferrari.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

They made it a Ferran.

Meet Mark And Bri: Intimacy Evolution

SPEAKER_01 2:20

So Ferron, Maison Ferrand. How was that accent? That was good, right? It's a French cognac house where the Kentucky bourbon and rye whiskeys are finished in French oak cognac barrels. So it's way too bougie for you and I. Yeah. You want to do that? Yeah, let's try it. Let's try it. What do you think? Well, it's got a lot of nice and heat on the back end. But it's tasty. It's got some kick in there. But shout out to the college child who bought me his expensive book. And it was probably more expensive than the gift I gave him, which made me feel really bad.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

It's kind of fitting that we're having this today. This is what causes a lot of problems. Yes. And we get we have some counselors that came in today to talk. So, yes, again.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

So Mark and Brianna.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Podcasters, but you guys are into relationship management. You have a business called Intimacy Evolution. That is correct. And you guys help married couples. And you also have something that you do with men and men's retreats, which Matt and I need a lot of help. But welcome. Thank you guys for coming. Yeah, definitely. So where do we start? Like, tell us about how you got into helping couples.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

So we'll go way back into time to childhood. No. Um first uh I was in college. I was a wrestler, and uh I didn't want know what I wanted to do afterwards. And so I just picked up psychology, people, why not? Um, and so I got a degree in psychology, eventually my master's and so on, and uh started working with uh mostly men, but also couples on you know improving relationships with themselves and each other. And uh my wife's uh had her own career.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Um Yeah, so I've been a sexual health educator for over 17 years, and I'm a relationship and intimacy coach as well.

How Babies Disrupt Bonds

SPEAKER_03 4:24

And she's called me for a pointer. Sorry to interrupt.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

You're good.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Some tips, if you will. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah. And um, we realized when we had our first kiddo 10 years ago, just how drastically having children changes your relationship. And like we know this logically, but there is nothing out there that uh helps parents, helps couples to maintain their relationship. And so it was kind of like a whirlwind for us in that moment. Um, and so from that, we created our own business, Intimacy Evolution, to help couples to nurture their relationship while they're raising their children.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Yeah, for us, it was one of the hardest times that was said to be joyful and great and everything else, but it was chaotic and hard. And we didn't feel like we could get support or had support uh because we had this bundle of joy and what did we have together? And it was hard to connect and that type of thing. And so uh we did a lot of work for ourselves in that realm. And then uh about two years ago, I closed my practice and we went all in on our um our company. And you know, there's some stats on on marriage therapy only working about 20% of the time, and we weren't okay with that. And so we're like, how can we do this better? Meaning the other 80% ends up in divorce, divorce, separation, um something they didn't want to happen, whatever that looked like.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

I have a lot of questions. I mean, I have a lot of questions. Um, so first off, when so I'm divorced, uh remarried, happily married. Matt is we're still this is your first marriage, though, right? Yep. And hopefully your last. Yeah, yeah, hopefully my last. Yeah, it's very uh but when when it's just the two of you, right? Husband and wife, husband and wife, and you're traveling the world and you're vacationing, and everybody feels great and their bodies are normal, and then all of a sudden there's pregnancy and watching delivery, and then childbirth, and then mom is exhausted and mom is not giving time to dad. Like all of this leads to, I mean, it happened in my household, yeah. Like, and people don't talk about it. Like it's just what like you have to try to figure this stuff out, yeah, unless we find people like yourself, right? Not easy. The world goes from here, which the two of you, to here, and there's no rule book, and then all of a sudden you're like, why doesn't my wife want to have sex with me anymore? Well, you don't want to have sex with me. I don't have time. The baby, like it's it's pure chaos.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Yes, it is, and yeah, and it's such a different experience. So before baby, we were having a very similar experience. My wife was pregnant and carrying this baby, and I was just alongside supporting. We have this child, and I have to create a relationship with this child. I don't have an instant bond, like, yeah, I know that's my child, but like it doesn't interact with me. I'm just changing its poopies diapers, and she's got this maternal bond that's just there.

SPEAKER_04 7:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Right. And over the first six months, I have to start to create a bond with this child. And so we're having drastically different experiences. She's breastfeeding. Of course, I'm not. Um, very different experiences. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Well, but you also, at least in my case and other males, yeah, like I'm a little jealous of the amount of time that beautiful wife, who I used to have all of her time, is now giving to this infant that needs it, and there's no time for me, right? Does that happen a lot?

Postpartum, Resentment, And The Unsaids

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Yeah, yeah, it is, it does, and it's not talked about. And the other thing is men experience postpartum depression as well because they they are in this lonely space now.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

I'm still experiencing that. My youngest is 14. Permanent, it's why I'm drinking so much.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Well, and and postpartum does last up to seven years from the last child that you have. And so there's a lot of other things that we can go into with that.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

But yeah, that and and that's why we call the business we have intimacy evolution. It's about how your intimacy and your relationship evolves over time when these big changes happen, right? Because they're gonna happen. And eventually you're gonna be empty nesters. And now what do we have?

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Now our life looks different again. And you're trying to figure out who this person is that I haven't spoken to in the last 16 years because you're running around carpooling and cheerleading and basketball and tennis, and then you're right, you're you're tackling all the problems, and then you're like, Oh, you're back. Where you been the last 16 years?

SPEAKER_04 8:57

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Yeah. And sometimes you're like, Where have I been? Yeah. Yes, right. I've been dad for so much and and and partner support. Like, what have I done for myself? Yep. And so um, you can have it all though. You really can. And that's what we tell people. Like, um, you can have the amazing relationship, you can have the amazing kids, you can have your personal life. Something we joke about is um um what is uh uh separate lives, separate bedrooms that happens in no, not at all. Yeah, uh separate what separate is sexy.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Oh yeah, so it's it's good for you to each have your own individual experiences. You know, if you think about it, when you first start dating, you have these separate lives and then you get to learn all of these things about each other. You know, you're like, oh my gosh, like tell me all about this. What do you like to do? Oh, I maybe want to try that too. But as you the longer you're in relationship, the more you come together and you start to have similar interests and experiences, and then you kind of like you're not interesting to each other anymore. So making sure you have your own individuality that creates interdependence. You are your own people, and then you come together because you choose your relationship.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

So I want to for the viewers at home, separate is sexy does not mean so when Matt's traveling, he's separate from Carrie. No, he can have sexy time with someone else. Just I'm clarifying that because I can see Matt going on and be like, well, this is what I learned. I mean, that's what they said.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Very black and white. Uh you know, you you want to stay interesting to your partner. And part of being interesting is having experiences and being able to bring them home. And I don't mean sexual experiences, uh, I mean um, you know, going out and spending time with guys or going on a trip by yourself, um, experiencing something that you can bring home and bring the emotional connection because I get to tell you the story about what it was like, how I felt, and all this info and and and this connections available for you.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

So you are encouraging this is a surge woman. You're encouraging guys to go do guy things. And I know that you do have guy retreats, and we'll talk about that a little bit. And you want women like my wife goes to Little Rock and plays tennis with the other women and I can tell me all about it. And I miss her. It's great that she's there, but I love cut when she comes home and I get to oh, I miss you, and absence makes the heart grow fonder. Like you'll do stuff. You go out to Wyoming.

Separate Lives, Stronger Spark

SPEAKER_03 11:19

But you the boys do get a little passive aggressive when she's away, though.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Oh, I'm I mean very much so. It's aggressive aggressive, it's not passive. He brings up loaded gun a lot. Yes, my wife leaves me home and I'm I'm sending for myself. And I want to put a loaded gun in my head sometime.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

I understand, Matt. It's it's it's important to be able to miss your partner, though. Yeah, um, you know, when you miss each other, you the the this fireworks coming back together is so much bigger and better.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

I love it. Yeah, you're right. But Matt is referencing that before the partner goes away, you you probably want to be intimate with your partner and not leave them feeling lonely when you're gone. That's what Matt's saying. That's what Matt's saying. That's what he calls it the loaded gun. Don't leave town and leave somebody. I like how you keep it. We like to call that projection. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

No, but you guys, you guys are like hitting, I think, a big void in in the world. Like it's you're right. Like you, when you have a new baby, me as as I I love all I have three girls and I love all of them, but until they were probably two, when they could like communicate, we just didn't have the same that that Carrie had, because Carrie had them inside of her for nine months, right? And already had this, like she would come, she'd uh she would I always tell the story, but she would be like, I need to go to Walmart when you get home when the kids were really little. And I'd be like, I'll just stop by and she's like, No, you don't understand. I think so she would go and like when we had our oldest, like she couldn't get her to sleep all day. Well, she got back home, and me and Kimmy were sleeping on the bed, and she came and woke me up and she was crying. And I was like, What's wrong? I I got her to sleep, and she's like, I like that.

SPEAKER_04 13:09

That's not fair.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Which as a guy, you don't get it because you know you did something until like until they could communicate or show something, it's hard for us guys because we don't have the connection.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Right. And I and that can be a big point of contention and disconnect in the relationship because biologically you guys are not meant to be connecting with the children until after one.

SPEAKER_04 13:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

You know, it is up to the mom to have this bond and to protect them. And um, there can be a lot of you know, upset, like, why don't you love our child? Or why and they're like, no, I do, but like I'm just not connecting with them the way that you do. But then it's really the other things that are underneath that. It's the unsaids, it's she's not feeling connected or taken care of, or you know, um, the resentment that can start to come up.

SPEAKER_03 14:00

Yep. Or like, you know, like she would carry like, why don't you want to hold them? And I would be like, it's drool on me. Like, and it wasn't because I didn't love him. I just didn't have the same and it's and like I love the name of your business because we as a couple and a family, you have to evolve, whether it be the husband and wife, the kids, everything has to evolve together, or you you you go apart.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Well, I have a bunch of friends who they tell me over a drink or coffee or something, like, I just gotta get through to when the kid's done with high school and then I'm getting divorced. I'm like, Yeah, like it's like and it's like because I'm staying for the kid. My wife and I have nothing in common anymore. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, like, I'm hearing them say this, and they're rationalizing it. Like, I'm staying because of the children and I'm miserable and I need to get out. And I'm thinking, like, go to counseling. Like, you I said, if you're gonna be miserable for the night, and I'm not you guys, because I'm divorced, I get asked this question a lot. I said, try to figure it out, find something in common, go to counseling and therapy, but don't stay for the next 20 years if you're miserable. But I try to figure out a solution. Is that is that 100%? Kids go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

I was gonna say, kids understand, like they know there's an energy, you know, they understand that their parents aren't happy. And um, you know, so we talk about this a lot. Typically, we have one role model growing up of what a relationship looks like.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

So yours are Carrie's, and so Carrie's the role modeling, yes.

Men’s Groups And Real Support

SPEAKER_00 15:26

So your relationship, how you two interact together, right? The parents interacting is the, and so you either grow up knowing like that's exactly what I want, but a majority of people are like, no, I don't want anything like that relationship, but how do I do it differently? Right. And so to your point of like, I'm gonna stay for the kids, like you're not actually benefiting your kids. It would be better for you to split amicably and be happy individually for your children to actually learn how to take care of themselves too. Like as they get older, like how do I support myself as an adult? And um, back to the point of of counseling. And when people get to that point, um, you know, we we talk a lot about how the intensity of the solution needs to match the intensity of the problem. So if they do go to counseling, it's typically maybe once a week or maybe once every other week. And they're like, well, we just need to work on some of these things, but they're on the brink of divorce.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yep, it's too late. It's too late. Yeah, yeah. So the stat is most couples don't get help or divorce for about six years from when they started having problems. And so let's talk about some statistics here. Um, one fifth of couples divorce within or separate within two years of having a child. It's hard.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

It's hard, it is.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

And then if we look at the seven-year itch where the the divorce rate average divorce rate increases, well, they've been having problems for about six years before that. So they are married about a year. What happens about a year into marriage? Children. And so again, um I like to say, and we like to say children are the number one reason for divorce, not because of the children. I like to say, but we just the fact is, and it's not because of the child, it's because we're not ready and able and have the support to navigate how much change happens within that first and second year.

SPEAKER_04 17:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Um, usually about the one year, Mark, we either become roommates or we come back into relationship and we become lovers again as well as everything else. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

I think what's what I really want to touch on with you specifically, Mark, is and not anti-Brayon, but I want to talk about like the men and the men's groups because I was thinking about it on the way over to the podcast today. We we have a group of guys, you have your group of friends, and we have a group that's interconnected. We drink, we laugh, we talk sports, we talk gambling, we talk all like we don't ever sit down and be like, Matthew, how are things at home with you and your wife? Like, we don't have those really deep conversations, and we all assume because we're not having them, everything's okay. But in many cases, it's not okay. Yeah. So like walk me through. I mean, I'm sure yours is okay, but what walk me through what's happening. Just okay, though.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

I imagine it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

But like, how do the men's groups work? Because like we're big, strong matcha. We don't want to share our feelings, but like, do you able to pull some of that stuff out?

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Definitely. So if we go back in time, right, uh, there was an elder man that you would go talk to, right, in the the group that you're in, whatever uh your family, your tribe, whatever the situation was. And uh men are meant to be supported and support each other. And the best um version of myself is fully expressive, meaning I can express my emotions, I can express my thoughts fully. And having other men to do that with is great because we can bounce off and we can say, hey, we can process some emotions so that I can be fully resourced when I go to my wife and say, Hey, I was thinking about this and this doesn't work for me, how can we do this better? Well, talking it through with somebody, a trusted, you know, person helps us come back to the conversation in a much better way. And so for me, it's very much men are meant to have other men. And we're we're social creatures. And uh, you know, sitting around the fire talking about life is an important part. And all the fun stuff is great. I love that. I'll joke, I'll play, uh, I'll ride bikes, I'll do all the things. Uh, but I also have my inner circle that I can come to with any problem, anything going on, any emotion I have, and they're willing to sit with me with it and talk about it and really go deep. And that's you know, that's that's a skill that I had to cultivate. That wasn't just like given to me. My My dad didn't like we didn't do that. I didn't, you know, the closest I had growing up was coaches, where we'd we'd talk about how I felt, any sort of performance anxiety, what's going on in my life. And and those were the people um that that were there.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Um do you have like a run of show or an agenda? Like, so what happens at these events? You can show up, everybody sits and has coffee, like you everybody goes around the room. Like how do these what what happens at these events? So not that Matthew, I mean, we may have to get him into one of these events and you know, try to set it up for you.

Inside A Free Men’s Circle

SPEAKER_02 20:35

So let's let's uh let me back up just a little bit. So every first Tuesday of the month, I have a local open, free men's group. Anyone can show up. And this is just me giving back to the community. Morning, lunch, uh, dinner, drink. What does it look like? Eight eight o'clock uh to nine thirty in the morning. At night, after my kids go to bed, so I can get out of the house. And because a lot of the guys are parents, and so it's easier to kind of sneak away when the kids are off.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Do this at different locations, or you have a spot?

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Nope. So go rogue studio off the uh Rainbow Curve. Uh Brian is a good friend of mine. He allows us to use the space for free. Everything's you know um taken care of. And so, first Tuesday of every month, what we do is we sit down, we um we do some sort of uh embodied activity. So, what that means is getting out of our head and into our body. So maybe we do a little bit of breath work, we we move our body a little bit. Um we spend a lot of time in our heads as men, logistics and planning and all this other stuff. Problem solving. Problem solving. And most people in our life want more of our presence. They want more of our heart, not more of our thoughts. We give them our thoughts all the time. They want to feel us, right? You're you're your your wives aren't going, hey, let me hear more about what you think. They don't want to hear the bits. Yeah. Yeah. Go. I have this problem. Why don't you fix it for me?

SPEAKER_01 22:05

No, they want you to listen. Yeah, just want you to be there to listen. And my wife has to say that to me now. Yeah, I just want you to listen. I don't want you to solve my problem. Like, when do I speak? No, no, no, you keep listening. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Which which one are the four H's? Do you and this is a great question. I tell people to ask their partner, okay, you're about to, you're talking right now. Hold on. Do you want to be helped, heard, held, or humped? And usually it's never humped. Four.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

Yeah. I was gonna say that one's rarely come back.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

And almost always with our spouses, it's they want to be heard. Yeah. And our job is to do nothing but to hear them, to listen, to shake our head, to nod, to understand, and just be with them. That's it. And she's shaking her head over here, going, Yes, yes, please.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

Right? And it's so hard. Like us as men, there's like a wall. Like, we can't do it. We already know that we're supposed to listen, and it's like so hard to hold back. You're like, I could fix this right now.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Well, I can also see it in your house. Carrie, one second.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

I'm distracted. That's a negative. Well, and in and under all that, it it often takes about uh there's seven layers to people of tell me more before we actually get to the root of the problem, right? So if you think like, hey, you didn't put your shoes away, and that was the annoyance, and here's what I'm gonna tell you about. It's like, okay, tell me more. What's under that? Okay, what's under that? What's under that? Well, it just doesn't feel like you care about our space the same way I do. Okay, tell me more about that. Where does that come from? It takes about seven times the saying, tell me more to really get to what's that. Typical therapist, getting you that's a very good therapist. Yeah. And uh, so anyways, back to the men's groups. Um, we we have some sort of activity, uh, a vulnerable share or just talking about life, what's going well, what's a struggle. And what we find is what's most personal is most universal. So if some guy, if I share something that's going on in my world about the holidays and how stressful they are, everyone else is like, yeah, me too. Me too. This is hard. And, you know, how do I navigate my family better? How do I do this? And and then we have this conversation around.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

So somebody will throw out a topic or somebody will volunteer to start, then right? And that's and then to the group.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Yeah, yeah. And and usually everyone will share something going on in their world.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

I was gonna say, and guys being guys are like, yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Yeah, but we have a great group of guys. One, as a facilitator, too, is is some of these other guys are these are high quality men that are not gonna sit back and say, Oh, you too, okay, tell me more about that. They're not they're not just gonna be like, oh, sounds great. Yeah, I have a great life. Like, um, it's a beautiful process. And the the trust and and and camaraderie in the uh just community that happens in an hour and a half a month is just amazing. So it's a safe spot.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

So let's just say hypothetically, Matt showed up, uh right, and he's in the room. I hope so. And he says, guys, I'm not satisfying my wife in the bedroom. And you're telling me every everybody's eating, oh, me too. Is everybody looking at me? No, no. Like, dude, that's your problem. Like everybody's more open to helping. Yeah, I mean I'm just trying to help you because you and I talked about this off air, then you're stuck with this right now. And you said, can I bring that up? I said, Yeah, it's a safe spot. Nobody's watching the podcast anymore.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

I mean, those 30 people are gonna they're gonna make this now.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

That's a guy who can satisfy his wife. Shout out to Carrie. No, but it's a safe space, I assume, where people, if somebody brings something up, nobody's laughing and nobody's everybody's kind of just building upon it. Well, I would laugh if you said that about well, Carrie told me that already. I knew that you'd be struggling to get a sack.

Retreats, Rituals, And Release

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yeah, and it's not it's also not that serious. We have fun, we joke, we play, we uh, you know, being uh playful is is important too. And it's okay to joke. It's uh, you know, learning when um to joke and when not to joke is an important aspect of it.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

And it's said in the room, like hey, whatever's said in this room stays in this room. I mean everybody, I mean, that's it's that's that's said out loud, or that's just kind of an undertone.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Um no, it's one of the agreements. I usually talk about them. There's a few. Just um, you know, be present, be here. Um, or it's said here. Most people do, yeah, or they don't even bring them in.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

Um it's that's what's nice about that late too.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

You wouldn't have anyone calling you.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

My phone's on, do you know disturbed by that time half the time, anyways.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

So that's the free event, which is great. And then, but then there's other things that you would recommend because you have there's something on there about retreats, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Yeah, yeah. So uh twice a year I hold a local men's retreat, uh typically around 25 guys. We uh Thursday through Sunday, we stay together, we eat together, we um do activities together, we play, we um do all kinds of uh uh yeah, exercise and fun. And um, I like to always bring in uh great food and facilitators. Yeah, facilitators that do different things, breath work and just about improving myself. And the the community that comes out of that is beautiful. Um, these these guys continue to have connection and deep conversation for years. And most of these folks don't know each other in advance, or some may. Some do, some don't. Um, last retreat. Um about half of the guys there flew in. And so they weren't from anywhere close. Wow, that's some all the way from Oregon to New York to Florida. Um, guys from all over. And wow. And I have I bring facilitators in from all over, too, like friends of mine that are just amazing human beings that have something to share. And uh my best friends now have all came from events like this. Wow. Um people you never knew you'd never met before. Never met before. Never met before. And uh the beauty is the quality of men they are is very high. And I could call them at any moment, they can call me at any moment, and we're there, we're there for for each other. And so um it's and every moment is scripted. I mean, every from so yeah, every every minute is outlined in my outline of the weekend.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Now that doesn't mean it sticks to that, but we see you people see it in advance, like they know what they're signing up for. They don't just show up and be like, hey, now we're gonna go swim for four hours. What?

SPEAKER_02 29:04

I don't swim. They they somewhat know what they're signing up for. So there is a little bit of a surprise factor. Um, so if you've ever heard of the hero's journey, it's this motif that every story follows, every movie follows. Um, there's a calling um for some sort of exploration. If if you think of your favorite movie, there's some sort of calling, and then you go into the darkness to to become out the other side, and uh we kind of follow that same idea. And so there is an outline of the weekend, and some of it is uh described in depth and some of it's not, you know. Um we're gonna we're gonna cold plunge. Okay, we know what that is. Uh we're gonna do a exercise um uh called a wagon wheel. Okay, what is that? Well, you'll find out. And so there's some level of like trust in yourself that whatever you show up for, you'll get whatever you need will be there for you. And um just believing in the experience in yourself.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Have you been to anything like this before?

SPEAKER_03 30:14

No.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

I I did I did a leadership type like this where you go one to Colorado Springs and you're there in this room with these people for three days, and you'd like fill out a 360 feedback form, and all of a sudden, like you were the therapist and you're doing these group exercises and these team exercises, and you're learning about yourself. And it's the end of these things, and tell me if this like by the time I would have just met you for the first time, and I'm crying on your shoulder about how you you you you've been the missing link in my life that I didn't know existed, and my marriage is gonna be better because people are emotional and crying, right? Is that yeah? Yeah, all of that happens. It's it's that's insane. But like just strangers putting together that are trying to grow their lives, and all of a sudden you walk out of this, like a changed man. Like this changed my life. And you're like, Yes, are you serious? Like, yeah, I've I saw once, and like this guy's like, I'm gonna quit my job and I'm gonna make more time for my family, and I'm leaving my million-dollar gig because I I realize now through the last couple of days that it's not as important and bonds, and I'm like watching this going on, and the guy's balling. I'm like, holy shit, this is the type of stuff that gets out of these things.

Betting On Yourself: The Big Move

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Yeah, definitely. And and so dive into being in our head, right? Uh, all the research on the past and how it gets locked up into our body, the the issues uh are in the tissues, trauma stored in the nervous system, all this stuff, right? Well, part of that is is learning to move through emotions by moving your body. And by having different experiences, we unlock things. We we allow ourselves to process them and we let go of a lot of stuff. We can let go of things really quickly. If you if you notice animals, they do it really well. So every tongue, every time my dog wakes up from a nap, she's she gets up and she shakes off. She sl shakes the sleep off. If she has this intense uh barking at another dog, as soon as it's over, watch them. They'll shake it off, they'll move their body, interesting, they'll let go of the tension and the the the anxiety of what was happening by moving their body. And so some of these experiences, like you're talking about, is like you know, they're having these profound, massive experiences because they're feeling into their heart and into their body, they're not just stuck in their head. And high performers are I I was one I you know, my self-worth came from my last performance. And so I was only as good as what I did last. And if I wasn't doing, I wasn't good enough. And so uh you you get them in this type of situation, and they get to shed all of that and they get out of their head and into their heart, and it's this beautiful process.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

So you probably have, I mean, you're not gonna say names, of course, but you probably you probably can give us some really interesting examples of Bob was at this event and just changed his life, and you he left it, and six years later, now he is a pastor somewhere and left. Like, I'm sure you have all kinds of interesting examples of those things.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

I mean, I think one of ours, our our example is the best. So uh two years ago, we were living in Kansas City. I was working with a mentor of mine, uh, my own coach, and he said, if if you weren't afraid of the outcome, what are the three things you would do today that would bring you the most joy? I said, um, close my practice, sell my house, and move to Bentonville, Arkansas.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Yeah, do the question one more time. The question was if if if you were gonna win and no matter what, nothing bad could happen, you could make decisions and out of joy and not out of fear, what are the three things you would do today?

SPEAKER_03 34:00

And so a huge leap of faith. Yeah, yeah. In yourself, I mean, you know.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

And so uh within three months, all that was done. Wow. And you were probably like, what are we doing? No, he called me. So I called him. I called her after this call. This is the craziest thing.

SPEAKER_03 34:17

Like, give me that guy's phone number.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

I called her in sh and I said, Hey, I got some some big stuff to talk about, some big things that are coming up, and I want to tell you about them. As soon as she answered the phone, she goes, Are we moving? And I was like, How do you like this? Was not on our radar.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

I was like, You haven't sounded this this excited in a long time.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

I just know. And you guys hadn't talked to me before? You just knew? Yeah, that's crazy. Like Bummin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Um, yeah, we we had visited Bettonville um many times throughout the years. And every time we were here, we're just like, man, like why are we leaving? Like we could see ourselves being here. And so it was kind of like out there, but not like that close to like me saying, like, oh, okay, we're like the decisions made. Uh so that was in October of 22, 20, 23, and we moved January 1st, 24.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

I mean, you have bills to pay, you have mortgages, and you got debt and you have credit card bills. Like when I when I said at one point I'm gonna open a business, my wife thought I was crazy. Yeah. I'm like, I I I don't want to look back when I'm 70 years old and say, I wish I had done this. Right. Because it's too late at that point. Yeah, it's too late. It may have been a horrible decision, it could have bankrupted us, but like this is what was passionate for me at the time. And she thought I was nuts. Yeah. But like I mean, I the fact that you guys picked up and moved and didn't have a job. I mean, you were just figuring it out as you went. I mean, yeah, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

But in a way, uh, like you were both vulnerable. So you like went somewhere new and had to like start at how you wanted to. Yeah. Because you couldn't go back to your old ways. Yeah, yeah.

Risk, Careers, And Family Alignment

SPEAKER_01 35:55

You weren't willing to. And it just it wasn't easy, but that's how you supported it. I mean, right? That's the other piece, too. You could have had a wife at home go, Are you out of your flipping mind? You're not leaving your job, we're not moving. We got we got mortgage and bills, and the kids love the school that they're in.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Like, I mean, it was our dream house. It was literally like we'd only been there for two years. Like it was a house that we had just moved into. It was everything that I ever wanted. And it was a neighborhood that our kids loved, and and um, it was everything. And because of the work that we had done, and because I could hear the passion that he was expressing, I was like, well, of course we're gonna do this because we're in this together, we will figure it out. Like even if it doesn't work and we do come back to Kansas City or we go somewhere else, like, okay, fine. And so I wanted like all of like everything that Mark shared, circling back to like why it is so important for men to do work is because they show up more passionate, more fully for themselves, they show up more fully for their partner, for their family. And everybody wins from that. Like your spouse is not supposed to be your everything. It's not fair to them to try to hold all of that.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Well, Carrie knows you're not our everything, you're you're you're her anything.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

They can't be your therapist, they can't be your they can't be your fixer, right? It's important for men to have other men, just like women have women that we can talk to and you know, lean on when we're venting or frustrated, but like they're also holding your relationship up in the highest regard. They're not gonna tell you, like, oh, well, you shouldn't put up with that. You need to leave him, unless that is absolutely in the best interest of your well-being. But when we're like, oh, well, you know, he didn't get you whatever, like you should just leave him, you'll find somebody better. Like, no, you want people to support you and your relationship for the highest good. Um, and I think that's that's yeah, men have been missing that piece for for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

And I love that story because, you know, traditionally, we all tell our kids, which I'm like my girls, I'm like, when you're young, go do all you can because when you get older, you're you get roots somewhere, and it's hard to just and you guys did it. Like it was like you're 18 again. You're like, we're moving. Do it. And like when I moved down here, like my parents came home and they're like, What are you doing? I was like, I'm moving to Arkansas. They're like, Where?

SPEAKER_04 38:22

What?

SPEAKER_03 38:23

It's like I'm moving down there. Yeah, and you know, the older we get, we think we can't do that. So it's it's always neat to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Yeah, and we were either late or early. I don't know which because statistically speaking, like you have three careers throughout your life. Usually you have a first career, and then you have your main career while you're raising children, and then like in the 50s, uh, you're like, okay, here's my third career, and and you open something, do something else. Um, so we're either late uh from the the early years or or we are early for our later years.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

I don't know which, but uh but it's interesting because we were in Walmart, Tyson, JB Hunt's supplier world here. Uh-huh. And I I I'm clearly not a therapist, you guys are professional, but because I've been divorced, because I was laid off from a job, and because I have my own business, I I get asked for coffee meetings once or twice a month. And it's always one of those topics. And it's interesting on the job piece, people will say, Well, I'm comfortable. I have a paycheck coming in every two weeks, and I got my 401k and my benefits, and I'm nervous to leave, even though I'm flipping miserable in my job, and I've been here for the last 10 years. Like, so you're in your own business. Like you kind of come into like you're it's not saying it's easy, but people don't want to leave corporate work because I'm so scared to take this leap of faith, even though my passion's over here, because I know the first and the 15th paycheck comes in. And I know that it pays the mortgage, I know it pays the kids' school. So I just talked a little bit more about the risk and the the the openness and the reasons that it's so important for people to follow their hearts and follow their dreams. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Um, so let's talk about background stuff. I believe some of this allowed this to happen. So my dad had owned his own business for 30 years before he retired. So I have some background. Her dad owned his own multiple businesses. And so we have some uh risk tolerance that we watched, sometimes good, sometimes bad. And uh and so I think some of that came into play. And then I had people around me, entrepreneurs everywhere. And um they're like, hey, you know, and I had to make at one point, uh, about six months in after the move, we're leveraging and we're selling things and we're we're cashing out of stuff and and we're making it work. And at one point, I had to become okay with if we end up living under a bridge and I have my family, I'll be okay because I'll come out the other side. At some point, we will grow this business, we will be successful.

Why Classic Couples Therapy Misses

SPEAKER_01 40:57

If and your supporting partner was in the same camp saying the same thing, right?

SPEAKER_03 41:02

Because like that's you have to have both of you saying the same thing has to be hard on your relationship too. You guys probably saw parts that you never knew existed.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Yeah, like highlighting that we've been together. Uh, it'll be 19 years and a couple days, so um long time. I know we met when we were 10. I was gonna say um that's not true, but no, we met in college. Um, no, and the 2024 to 2025 like was our most challenging year of our our our entire relationship, and we navigated a lot. It was really hard, but we always like knew that we were in it together and we would figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

And we went from starting a business to being in the green uh in less than a year. It's incredible. So I mean, like we have massive success. It's like I don't even know how that happened. When we were in it, it didn't feel like it was happening. Um and you know, we had support around us, and so we couldn't do it alone. There were definitely times where um uh we weren't on the same page. And but my fear, my ultimate fear in life is that I'm gonna end up alone and everyone's gonna leave me. So that's where I had to be okay with like, no, if if if if everything goes away and I have my family because they're not leaving me, I will be okay. And she had her own process of like what's coming up from childhood and other stuff to kind of work through. And so um they didn't give us any tissues. I know.

SPEAKER_04 42:46

I didn't know we're gonna be able to do that. I was gonna say you over here.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

You guys that's what's that's why you're so passionate and good at what you do. Yeah, you've lived through life.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

We've lived through it, and and um yeah, I I think betting on yourself uh is is always the best bet. Yeah. Putting uh resources into me um always pans out in some way. And maybe it's not the way we designed, maybe it's not the way we hoped. Um, but it it's good for us.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

I mean, that's but it's incredible. I'm 54, I know that you're in your 40s, and at some point you have to stop. 49. I'm trying to help but be nice to not talk about his sex. I'll be 49 either. But like but stopping to pause and think through these things, like I just think that we go from ditch to ditch and you go from day to day, and what are we doing next week, and where are we going to dinner and where we're gonna travel and how are we gonna pay this bill? And you're not pausing along the journey and going, Am I happy? Am I adding value to my wife, my kids, and these other things? Like, this has been very interesting today to kind of reflect back on and say, I'm sure I could do more. Um, I'd love to again make sure that we get the website before you go and how people can find you guys. It's like I'm living in a depth or Tuesday night. I'm gonna be there. That's it. I can hear about Matt's sexual dysfunction and I can out last. You can't, and you can't tell anybody. I can't tell anybody. Nobody watches this podcast.

Two-On-Two Coaching And Daily Support

SPEAKER_02 44:10

Um, let's see. Uh, a couple things. So uh website intimacyevolution.com. Uh, we're on all social medias. Um, reach out. We're we're pretty easy to find. We make ourselves pretty easy to find. Do you do one-on-ones with somebody too? Like with someone. Yeah, so um we have some structures. So we do uh let's talk about that real quick. Yep. So I work with uh men one-on-one as well as I have uh men's groups. I got a virtual online paid men's group. I have the free men's group here, we have men's retreats. We also have a couples retreat coming up in June. Uh we work I love that movie. Yes. Um, we work so what makes us different, and back to this idea that marriage therapy, like the reasons it doesn't work. One, the intensity of the solution doesn't match the intensity of a problem. If you're on the brink of divorce, you should probably be meeting with someone who's supporting you um every couple days, not every other week. Um, the other piece is there's a lot of triangulation, meaning there's one provider to two people. And how do you not take a side at some point? Well, we work two-on-two with couples in a much more intense way. So you have text access to us every day of the week. Within 24 hours, we're getting back to you real-time support as well as our calls. And so we work two-on-two with couples. Um, is it typically girl, girl, guy, guy?

SPEAKER_01 45:34

So we do we do Carrie would match up. We do match up with the children.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

And that's the great thing. Sometimes it it is, you know, I I I do align with uh, you know, maybe the husband on some aspects, maybe childhood upbringing, maybe like our patterns that we bring into relationship, and we can delve into that. Um and so there is like, you know, the group chat that we're all in together, and we do, you know, separate calls, but then we also have our two-on-two calls with all four of us together.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

And uh when I was going through my divorce with my counseling, like it was the therapist and me and my ex-wife who were also like, well, he better side with me today. No, he's siding with you today. And it's like, well, we're in this together. It's awful. Like, it's like you want, well, he needs to hear my point of view, and you're right, Josh, you're wrong. I'm like, that's kind of and it was I always felt like it was odd. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

But and the other piece of that is a lot of times, um, accident problems.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Yeah, a lot of problems.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

What accidentally happens in marriage therapy is um the first 30 minutes of each session session is recapping and talking about the problems. But the opposite of disconnection is connection. We need to talk about uh how we connect deeper, not how we reduce the conflict. There's always going to be conflict. If we're friends, we're gonna have conflict at some point. We're gonna have conflict. Everyone has conflict, but can we connect deeply in a way that makes the conflict worth it? And so what we focus on is yeah, we do conflict resolution, we do communication, but we really talk about how we can connect deeper and more often because that's what we're here for. That's what we get a partner for is to be loved and to love them, not to talk about every conflict we ever had and rehash them in every therapy session for Oh, you're bringing that up again? Yeah, exactly. Right? And so it's got the bludgeon over there. So that's that we there's not people doing what we do. You guys are one of one, pretty much. Yeah, and now we know them. You cornered the market. Yeah, no, that's great. Well, it we saw a problem, and we're like, this is the solution. This is a better way to do it than the way we're doing it now. Yeah, and so um I love it. I love that for us.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Um Brad, do you do the same services for women? That like, is there a women's retreat that you do stuff, or is it a little different?

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Not yet.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

She's been being called to do that, but she's kind of like that would be great if I'm going away with Mark for a weekend, the same weekend. My wife can go away with you, right? Like kids and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Logistics, yeah. Logistically, we would have to be opposite. Um, leave some food on it. Uncle Batty Please.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

Leave some food on her out. These are the folks that were gonna get parenting in my shop.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

Yeah, they're um, I think you guys have a I think it's there's a huge void in in our whole society. You know, it's because you're just you're you're taught to just get with someone and figure it out. And yeah, and you know, you don't really have anyone to talk to.

Building A Healthier NWA Community

SPEAKER_02 48:56

And and we love this community here. And like we're so happy to be here and to start our business here and really um be putting roots here because uh what better place to make impact than where where we live, right? I want the Benville community, uh the surrounding areas, northwest Arkansas, to be the healthiest place in the world, both physically, emotionally, relationally, um, to be the light, right? And we can do that here um by doing more. By doing more. And so let's wrap up.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

It's mountain biking capital. I love it. Yeah, I mean, it's a good place to have the the retreat.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

It's fantastic. So, what I learned today in in in summary, I'm gonna love Tuesday. Tuesday night is a great place for Matt and I to come and share. Yeah, there's four H's, humping is one of the four. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 49:51

That is true. I have a feeling he added that in the parking lot. I think it was three before he came in and he met you. He's like, I gotta have it.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

But you have to tell Karen. I can tell Emily that humping is one of the most important four H's. He said it comes up first.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

Um, you know, our relationship is always better when we're regularly having sex. It's true. Repeat that one more time for those at home. Emily, pay attention. One more time. When we're regularly connecting, a lot of times through sex, yeah, our relationship is always better. The viewers at home.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Yes, that's important. That's important. Yeah. Um, all right, the what one more time, the website for folks, how to find you, best ways to connect with you guys.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Intimacyevolution.com. We have all of the information there. And um on Instagram is where we hang out a lot. So intimacy evolution on there as well.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

Uh, we often do uh we're doing this year, we're committing to monthly free webinars virtually. Love it. And so that'll be on our website too.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

Um, yeah. I think the I think the free stuff, Matt's gonna say I'm cheap because Matt and I are both very thrifty. I think the free, we get somebody in the door, like say, hey, let me try this. I'm like, ooh, I really like it. Now I want to really go spend the money. I think that's a good way to get people engaged, whether it's the two the Tuesday night thing or the webinar, that somebody if you hey I'm comfortable in this space, it's gonna be a good use of my time. At that point, let me write a check or whatever the case is gonna be. I think that's very smart.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Yeah, and and you get like people get so much through our free stuff that they could live every month coming to our free webinar and their lives could be better.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

It would be man, it's gonna take all the free stuff.

Free Webinars, Men’s Night, Next Steps

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Good. I hope you do.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

That's yeah, one of the things.

SPEAKER_03 51:34

There we go. I mean, I could probably just trade out sexual advice for my payment.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

He's very knowledgeable, folks. He's very knowledgeable.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

He's very knowledgeable. Shout out to Carrie, God bless you. Carrie's a lucky woman. Well, thank you guys for coming in. This was really, really helpful. Um, I'm I'm gonna try to come to Tuesday nights or where now one more time.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Uh go rogue studio.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Go rogue studio from 8 to 9:30. Yeah, rainbow curve. And so yeah, it'd be easy.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Perfect. Uh how many guys show up typically? So uh every month's different around the holidays, it's a little lower, but uh I've had uh 10 to 20. Um turnout. It's good, yeah. I would imagine, and most guys come back. Yeah, uh food and drinks for the guys. No, no food and drinks. It's it's eight o'clock. It's like bring your own bottle.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

I mean, I hope you ate before that. Smart. Smart. Well, if it's free, I want to know what else free can we get. Great ordering a couple of pizzas, bring in some soda. I mean, maybe you can start having in the Gen 3 IP ring. Oh, see that? Oh, 10 to 20. We could do that. Yeah, we'll have to talk up there. Yeah, we could do that. Well, thank you guys for coming in. This week is really good. I think we'll get a lot of good feedback on this. Yeah, thank you. Thank you guys so much. Cheers.