A Chat With... Matt Dixon, Past President of CIPA

In this episode, hosts Joel David Briscoe and Sophie Knott sit down with Matt Dixon, Executive Chair at Beck Greener LLP and the Immediate Past President of the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys (CIPA). Matts shares his background in the profession, what being President of CIPA is all about, and how the profession has changed both in terms of day-to-day and the needs of new recruits.

Send in your questions or discussion topics to theipsurvivalguide@gmail.com

Chapters

• 1:09 What does being president of CIPA mean?
• 9:30 Matt's proudest and most challenging moments
• 16:09 How has the IP Profession evolved in terms of motivation
• 24:39 Emerging trends and future of the patent profession
• 31:29 Get involved with CIPA
• 33:01 Bonus question from previous guest

Transcript

Yet neither of you were born then, were you? 

I was. I was one. 

You were one. Oh, there we go. Oh, now I don't feel so old. We go. 

Welcome to the IP Survival Guide, a new podcast from the informal committee of the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys. This podcast is for training patent attorneys, startups, and all those interested in intellectual property. 

Hello and welcome to the IP survival. My name is Joel David Briscoe and I'm joined by my Co host. 

And then Sophie Knott. 

Amazing. And today we are joined by Matt. Matthew Dixon is Christian name, but we all call him Matt Dixon. If you've not heard of Matt Dixon, where have you been? Has just finished his presidency at the Child Institute of Patents and as he was last year's president. It's a three-year term. That's right. So you're currently going into your third year role, which is called the immediate past president? Might you tell us a little bit about what it means to be the President of CPA? And then we'll start from there. 

Right. Well. Thank you very much for for having me on your your podcast. It's all very exciting. 

Thanks for being here. 

Yeah. So. What does it mean? Well, so you're absolutely. It's a three-year role. You start off as vice president and then you automatically become president after that. And then your immediate past president. And the way that I'm thinking about being immediate past president is it's about me sharing my, my wisdom and my experience. And also finishing off some things. As well, not everything that I wanted to do, I've been able to to finish off. So that's, that's the kind of thing that I'm trying to trying to do. Overall, but it seemed like it went pretty well-being President, I'm quite pleased. 

Say. Right. So you said you finishing some things off. So when you become the vice president, you know you're going to become the president. Does that mean you're kind of coming in with an? Do you start your Presidency with a list of kind of like these are the things I love to address. Are things I'd like to do and promote. Does it work? 

I so I was pretty. So I thought, Oh yeah, you know, you just you just another person wearing the funny medallion and shaking a few hands and. And it's a kind of figurehead thing overall. And it wasn't like. So Lee Lee Davis, CEO of CP, said right. What do you wanna do this year? And I thought, oh, Crunky hadn't really thought about that. Wasn't wasn't. And then you kind of run through and say, well, what matters to me? What do I care about the thing that I am now finishing off? With the way that the intellectual Property Office in the UK interacts with SMEs and guides SMEs, particularly when it comes to international patenting, one of the things that I spotted and it bugged me. Was. Seems to all tail off once the IPO can't offer that service themselves. So it was like how can we help? And what can we do? So I've given myself a bit more work to do on that, but they the IPO has been incredibly helpful and we're working together as well as I've ever known. It's really good. 

We've talked about your Presidency a little. We've talked about the agenda, so tell us a little bit about then before the Presidency. How? How have you got from A to B like? 

Well, so so it's what from? From being a little lad in Yorkshire or. How far back are we going? 

Well, let's just. Talk a little bit about your career so far. Maybe in the last few years, and then we can go further back if that if you're willing to go as far back as you can remember. So let's just talk a little bit then about leading up to your Presidency. What position do you have in the profession already? And then what made you decide like, hey, this is something I want to do because obviously it's a huge commitment. That gives all of this time it to the profession, essentially, and all your peers so. Yeah, tell us a little bit about that. 

Well, I've been on Super Council for, I think it's about 17 years, something like that. I remember conversation with Tibor Gold. People still remember Tibor. Famous for being just very clever and doing lots with the black book and and the like. 

Absolutely. 

Fact, in fact it. I ended up giving him honorary membership of the Institute, which was quite nice and he was someone that said, yeah, you ought to. Get involved with council and. Well, 17 years ago I I I felt like I was quite a junior member of the profession or, you know, sort of qualified. But junior. And it's like, oh, no, that Council's all full of old people and that kind of thing. And I remember being on on council and feeling like like the the the young buck in there and the kind of disruptor. And in my head, I still am, but I'm not. Not, I'm now one of the old. So I was on Council and I always said, oh, I'm gonna do the presidency or anything like that. And I've got a proper job. But then I was lucky enough not to have a proper job after I left after I. HGFI was in quite a fortunate position and had more free time and was able to pick and choose what I wanted to do. And a bit later than probably I should have. I we went out for we went out for iprg do drinks and we were out at iprag drinks and then we went to the pub afterwards. And I'm sitting there with Lee Davis. And he and I said, oh, yeah, I should probably have done the presidential thing. He went, oh, well, you still could if you want to. 

Right there we go. The hook I. 

And that's and that's how that's how I became president. And I think it's like that. A bit like you know, when these suppressed gun people onto the ships. It's the same kind of thing. It buys you a few drinks and then suddenly you're president. And that's how I did it. I'd always said. That I wouldn't do it when I had a proper job because it's just too much to do and that's one of the challenges I think with with superannuation. Is getting people that that are really in active practice to also? So it's really important to make it easy for people to contribute their views and a bit of their effort, but maybe less of their time. And to have the infrastructure there to be able to help people to do that. And I think it's even harder the more junior you are the profession. To think, oh, I'm going to spend an afternoon a month. 

Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think I'm right in saying that is 2026 the president for 2026? Is this the first time in a while that it's actually been an election? The President, there's 42. 

The last election was 1010 years ago. 

When, when? How can the dot be an election for the president? Wait. 

I'm confused because no one. Yeah. Wow. 

So it's literally whoever says yes, they're in. Begin. 

Well, yeah. And and there's. 

For the reason. 

There's often a lot of trying to make sure that you're getting that you've got people lined up that might want to do it and and asking people. Rather than people queuing up. Because as you say, it is a big commitment. 

Do you think the fact that two people want to do it for 2026? This a sign that things are changing. Like maybe more people are wanting to do it going forward or do you think it's just a chance, a fluke? 

It might be. It might be. It might be one of the things that I hope that I did as President was try and make it reasonably accessible. Like that I tried to put up pictures of Council meetings and. 

Mm. 

Because it all it all. Seems very or it can seem. It's kind of who you know and behind closed doors and just trying to make that sort of thing accessible. That that this is an open institution and we want people to to get involved. And and it's very welcoming and it's all right and it's quite good fun. Maybe more people want to do some more things. 

Well, on that point then, so the Presidency particularly needs some form of like prerequisite, maybe a fellow of the Institute or whatever. 

Well, yeah, I think you have to be a fellow at the Institute. 

But yeah, there's a lot of students. Yeah. So, but there's a lot of students who obviously this podcast and their student members of the Institute in terms of getting involved, is there other ways that they can also get involved in not just the informals, which I'm sure they already know about by now? Out like Seepa as a whole, do they need to be members, full members or fellows and they get involved early on. 

So, so, so for involvement in any of the committees. You don't. You do not have to be a. Well, you don't even have to be a member. 

Right. OK. 

Of the if it's an appropriate committee, so we have things like there's an IP commercialisation committee that's got a very broad remit on just on kind of commercial stuff. It's not patent law. Talks about things like tax, you know, patent box, that sort of thing. And that has a really broad membership overall, includes members of the IPO, for example. Definitely student members would be welcome on a pro. Committees, I mean, I say appropriate. You know, you've got to be interested in the subject matter. And want to. Members have to be approved by Council, but that's usually a formality. If the chair of the committee says, yeah, I know this person would be great, but there shouldn't be any any reason to be involved. We have. I mean, yeah. So you'll know Catherine. Taylor. 

Really. Yeah. For for my onset of the INFORMALS committee. 

Who was exactly so the onset of the informal sits on Super Council, so we've got a new onset, Tom Bridgewater. Who also sits on council now taking over from Ashley. And but Catherine is now a full member of council. 

Mm. 

Having so got herself qualified became a fellow of the Institute and straight onto Council. Which is right and and anybody could do that if they were motivated to. And I'm very glad that Catherine is. 

So in terms of the year as President, what would you say you were most proud of and what would you say were the biggest challenges that you faced? 

So most most proud. I think we've made a real difference to the positioning of the UK and the UP. That's worked and have primarily done that by posting on LinkedIn I mean a bit more than that, but it's, I mean, it's amazing. The power of the of, of social media, even in a business context, you know, it's not exactly TikTok, but. 

Does she need it, man? 

Yeah, that's been amazing. So I'm pretty proud of that because I think that that has made a difference. And I've had a huge amount of backup to do those things. Hasn't just been me, but I've been able to do as a figurehead. The big challenge for me was, as you say, it's a lot of work. The first half of the year I didn't have a full time job. Was no problem at all. 1st of July I started a new job because I'm executive chair at Beck. Greener now. I'm responsible for running the firm. And then it really hit home that I was doing 2 jobs and that felt like quite a lot. So. Has become quite a relief now to to lose all of that responsibility as immediate press president. That's that was the big challenge. second-half of the year trying to manage 2. 

Jobs I can imagine. So. So talking about your career then going a bit further back then? When did you join the? What you've got in our notes here that you've you've got 25 years in the profess. 

No, no, no, no, no. 

But you indicated to us, yeah, that's not true. 

30. No, so so so I started at Danes. In August 1994. Yet neither of you were born. We I was. 

I was one. 

You were one. Oh, there we go. Oh, now I don't feel so old. We go. So in August 1994 started at Danes so straight out of out of university straight, I was graduated from Imperial. Everybody else, because 94 wasn't a good year in terms of the economy. There weren't a huge amount of jobs around and a lot of the people that were on my course. I was diagnosed physics. We're going for doing Mscs and. There are only two of us in my year of about 200 people that actually had a job to go to. 2. Wow. Yeah. I mean it was. Everybody was going on and doing. Some you know, so started at Danes, trained there, did the exams, passed them all first time, got a guilt prize. And, I mean, I did. Did quite well. Was. I was quite good at the exams. And then Danes opened an office in in. And this was a new thing for them. And they said, who wants to go? And I said, oh, I do. In fact, actually announced the day before I got married. And we're like, oh, we're not going to talk about this. We're not going to talk about moving out to Munich. Weren't there, and at the wedding we told everybody we were moving to Munich. So we did move to moved to Munich. So I was the second I wasn't a partner by then, but I was the second professional in the Munich office after and. My kids had two kids born in Munich, became a partner, came back and then thought I want a different challenge. So I joined a company called IP21, which was a startup between experienced patent attorney and an experienced businessman, which was very good. That went well, but then, well, we had a plan to massively expand. That would have had us putting money in and then it was 2008 and the economy crashed and I got a bit nervous. 

Yeah, rightly so. 

So yeah, so me and another guy ended up HF where I know you from from karaoke nights, Joel. 

You do. I wonder if that caught today. Of course. But it was. 

It was very good. Anybody that does superstition on karaoke. That's a pretty confident move, have to say. 

Thank you very much. 

And he did it well. So yeah, and I was 12. I headed the London office for some of that time, ahead of the engineering group, and it was. Was excellent. And then I had the opportunity to to leave on on good terms and I did. And then I'm here now. 

It sounds like you've had quite a lot of varied experiences in terms of working in other European cities and also seeing a start up and starting your own firm. Do you think have been some of the most valuable experiences in terms of helping you to get to where you are today? 

I learned how to be a good patent attorney at Danes. It's got an incredible reputation for. They did and still do invest in training, and that was really good. Gives you that solid basis overall. And then I learned a lot about the business of being a patent attorney. When I was at IP21 from this chap, John Williams, who went on to be. Was the. He was CEO at EIP. You'll know. 

It was a wow. 

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's. Yeah. John and his daughter, Andrea is is a patent attorney at Marks. Clark as well, but he was. Was a. He was he he had founded, built and sold a fish processing company of seafood processing company very successfully. And then he saw the business of of being a patent attorney and went, oh, actually, you could do this really well as a business. This is fantastic. And I learned an awful lot there about how you run a business. That's the kind of things that I have done since. I mean, I still do patent work. Those are probably the two things. That have been the biggest influences. 

Not the same John Williams that moonlighted as a world famous composer for Star Wars, then. 

No, no, no. And not the guitar playing. Actually, he does play guitar, but not that. Not as well as that John Williams. 

He isn't in your band is. I've I've actually been a bit of digging myself and so that you're you're playing, you know, a guitar and some backing vocals and a. Actually. 

Yeah. No, not in that. Available on Spotify, Ronnie Ripple and the Ripcord. It. See if you can get us past that crucial more than 1000 plays for our EP. 

Hey if anybody you know what you know, the big appeal is right. But. Was it year in review or was? Oh yes, Spotify wrapped. You know, it wouldn't be that hard for someone to be the number one listener in the world with just a few 1000 plays, right? What? They should get onto your discover. ASAP. Then they can show that claim to fame, and then next year's wrapped. 

It it's. It's all there for the doing. You see LinkedIn? There was someone offering a LinkedIn. As well. 

Everyone's doing it. My bank even did it and that was. You're banished. Yeah. And you could choose how harsh you wanted it to. And I was like, give me it all. And it was like you were one of the, like, top 10 spenders on Amazon. Yeah. Like great. I'm so happy that I've known that now. 

Yeah, you do not want that from a bank. 

Absolutely. It was dreadful. No. Yeah. One of the things we were going to ask you is you know, how's the IP profession evolved since you? But I want to just change that question a little bit and ask you then because you joined the profession at a time when your jobs in general in the economy were kind of hard to come by, as you said, most of your colleagues. Mm. From Uni went off to go do academia. So how? What was your like motivation coming into the profession? And have you seen that evolve with trainees today? 

So I think I wanted to be a patent attorney because of the same reasons that most people are, which is they like the science stuff, they don't want to leave that all behind and become an accountant or some sort of thing. But they kind of don't want to. Hard science. Overall, and also I did what's? I think it's still prospect, but when I did it, it was on a computer on a green screen rather than on a web page. And and it's just there could be an. Or I could be a patent attorney and and and I read this the the panel. This sounds interesting. And then it's a patent attorney's can earn up to £80,000 a year and I thought I'll be rich. Fantastic, let's do that so. So yeah, it's in lucrative. One of the things that I think for the profession in terms of recruitment. Is particularly on my kind of side of the business, which is more the physics, the electronics C engineering side being a patent attorney used to be about the coolest job you could do. It was like, wow, I'm using all this mix of skills and that's amazing. Now we've got so much more competition. You know, if I've got any kind of skills where I can understand technology as in what most people call technology, something around software, anything like that. That then being a parent attorney is not the coolest thing that you can do, and that that is a challenge. Yeah, since that. Since 1994, you know there was no Google then. And when you think how much the world has, world has changed. And the way that the way that the geeks rule the world, you know, the richest people in the world are essentially geeks, and it's OK. 

Yeah. 

I mean, isn't The Big Bang theory the most successful? Com of maybe I don't know of all time, but certainly currently about a load of physics nerds. I mean the world is very different. 

Absolutely. 

So is that and then what you allude to? I think, Joel, that, that it's not all about being a partner. 

Mm. 

The people that we are recruiting now have a different outlook. There is no. I'm not sure there's a there's a complete expectation of being in the same career for the whole of your life. Probably definitely not being in the same company for the whole of your life and it's very much more now, rightly so I think about what's my work life balance. Come to. I'll do a really good job, but that isn't all of my identity. Yeah, I'm doing this and I'm doing that. Rock. I'm in a band. I'm doing whatever else and and people have a much better view of of work, life balance and you, you say, Oh well, if you work really hard and you do. And you work all of these hours when wonder you might be a partner. That ain't good enough anymore. I think people still want those. Some people want the opportunities to to play that role, that business role rather than just being the patent attorney that have ownership of a business, extend their skills and that kind of thing. But you can't assume that. That's for some people and that that it's important when you're running a business to make sure that you have roles for people. The IT isn't just one route, and that's you're either a partner or you're not, that you've got roles for people that just want to do a really good job. 

Yeah, and that's looking at kind of what you are able to offer to recreate some people joining the profession in terms of the sort of skills that you're looking for when you are looking to recruit. You still looking for the same essential skill set for a new training pattern? Attorney that you would have been when you joined the professional do you think? Kind of trainees and the kind of skills they have joining, joining now are actually a bit different than they used to be. 

Well, that's that's quite interesting because it used to be. Like the coolest thing that that you could do if you're a little bit geeky. So geeky in terms of language, geeky in terms of the science and that kind of. Obviously smart enough to be able to do all of that, but because people are now more geeky and that's OK, you're ending up getting. Quite well-rounded people. So you're ending up getting normal people being Palatine is. I think I can say that. How do I put this in a way that that that's appropriate? You used to get a particular kind of person. Would. Want to become a patent attorney? A long time ago? Are the people that are now partners in firms? And and if you had any ounce of. Normal personality and could you know, pass yourself off at a dinner party. Then you look. You look like the most amazing, amazing person. Now people are pretty normal because it's OK to be geeky and that's fine. I think that's my logic. 

I see what you're. 

The problem then you just get. 

Yeah, like charisma is kind of now blended with geekiness a little bit, yeah. 

Yeah, you've got. You've got people. Exactly. You've got people with charisma, you've got people that you wouldn't immediately sit down at a dinner party and go, probably a pattern. Attorney overall, it isn't like. Yeah, I don't know whether any of this is going to make the edit. 

That definitely will. 

But then there's a challenge, then, because you've got to keep those kind of people happy, you've got to make the job interesting enough for for people like that, you can't just feed them. You know geek. They want the things that everybody else wants in there. They want opportunities to interact with clients they want. They want to work with others. 

Look at seminars and webinars and yeah, like it's conferences and be a keynote speaker and kind of talk about myself here. Not going to lie, but you know, I think I'm one of those. So I feel. 

Like I can. And you've got to manage. You've got to manage that enthusiasm for doing those things and also remind people. That, you know, they need the basics as well. They need to need to be good at. But then that's a management challenge. And of course that's a management challenge and the people that are managing are often the people that. Perhaps had a bit less charisma than the people that they're managing, so that's a challenge as. 

I think Siep is really reflected that as well. I think over the years even in just the short time I've been in the profession, I've really, you know, mainly through the. I'll admit, but I've really seen through the informals then. You know Seba being more active on LinkedIn and more transparent. You're part of that as well, sharing photos and things, but also, you know, like hosting the Super Shooting Conference now, which is, you know, like a new thing. So that I think. Steepest kind of moving with it, which is a really good. To see as well, right? 

Year we are likely to see our 5005. Thousandth member. Of CFA and I really. That's right. I really want. I really want that to be the kind of, you know, like when you do that, you're on million visitor. I really want someone to get when they put the form in that that that it comes back with a with a big golden ticket or something like that. For the 5005 thousand. 5000. I'm. Yeah. I I'd really like to see that, but it's also brilliant. See, I mean I did. We've revamped the student induction day. That's. Guys were and we're doing. I won't do the second one because I'm not president anymore. But you get a room full and you're seeing, you know, somewhere between 100 and 200 new recruits a year coming in. That's amazing. So Lee tells me when he talks to other membership organisations, having that number of people coming in. And the stickability is. We don't have a high. People generally continue in the profession overall, not everybody does, and that's fair enough. And the comparison as well, we always have a little look at at sit mar and see how we're doing. The answer is an awful lot better. 

OK. 

I think so. It's testament in a in a similar kind of profession to the way that we're doing it and encouraging people to join and then hanging onto them. It's really good. 

So you're looking a little bit more to the future of the IP profession talking about emerging trends. The world is evolving rapidly, especially with developments in AI and sustainability. Do you have any comments on trends or challenges you see shaping the future? The pamp. 

And if I could just tag on to the end of that, I think you'd be really well placed to answer this mark, because you joined the profession when the Internet was a year old. So you've seen your whole career presumably shift dramatically during that time. So is this? Again are. Are we experiencing, you know, the next Internet revolution here or is? I hadn't. 

Thought about it like that and that's a really good way of thinking about it because I have seen you do see changes in technology. 

Mm. 

Know I I. I remember when you sound like the old. Now I remember when when you used to send out instructions, you know for overseas patent applications. And you'd send them out by DHL. You'd have. You had to have confirmations of faxes because you put thermal faxes in your file and realise that in a year's time there was nothing on the piece of paper. You and then we start to get an e-mail and it used to be a kind of oh, no, you can't send anything important by e-mail. Everybody, everything had to be password protected. 

Yeah, of course. 

It. And there are all sorts of discussions about, well, this is confidential. If and then we caught up with actually, what real real life looks like. And even even e-mail seems a little bit formal. Now as a means of communication, e-mail used to be informal communication. Now it's lot like letters used to be, I think. And then you've got kind of. I'm communicating with clients by WhatsApp or, you know, teams mess, whatever it might be because you're doing that kind of thing and then you manage. 

Yeah. 

That and you adapt and I think every significant change in technology has associated with it the fears of. Oh, this is. Yeah. No one's going to have any job. But of course what you see is you gain a load of jobs that no one knew, that they that they had. You know, people are making their lives as social media influences, making their livings of social media influencers. Yeah, try explaining that to me in 1994. 

Yeah. 

I. I remember. I remember doing patents for various bits of what was web technology which sounded really cool. And people that were working on that saying, oh, and don't forget to cover mobile and I look down is it is it a Nokia 3210 the like the really old. 

One the 3310, yeah. 

3310 the original. 

All. Snake and yeah. 

Yeah, all mistaken. I looked at that phone. 

I first found. 

Yeah. And they well, they. They were like, yeah, you can. You're going to be doing your shopping on that and you're going to buy all your stuff on that. Like I don't understand what you are talking about. 

Wow. 

So you see these, you see these kinds of things come along. We will have to get used to using AI for things. I think one of the challenges is. That there are things that we are using. We're using person hours for and often trainee hours for that will be different that you're not going to need that. Think this. I think this hits the solicitors much more than it does the patent attorneys. Where it's just about, we've got a load of people that can do this. And so actually we've got a decent AI that can have the first stab at that. But what I think is that in the end your client wants someone to take responsibility for the thing that they're doing. They want a person to do that. Want to look someone in the eye and that person to give them their advice and that isn't good enough. Coming from from a bit of AI because there is a bunch of stuff about personal relationships there I don't like. I was saying this at lunchtime. I don't like it when Google's does the AI suggested results. I'm like, no, no, no. Want to read some results that someone has actually taken responsibility for because it could. Nonsense. You don't know. And I think it's going to look like. There will be tools that make some bits easier. You know, I used to go to the Patent Office and pull out part of my job as a junior trainee was going to the Patent Office into the vaults to pull out. Paper copies of published patent specifications to take up to be photocopied by hand. And then to wait for those and then go pick them up and you've got graduates doing that. That's. You just download them from as fast now. So we take it all in our stride and we'll take the AI aspects in our stride as well, I'm sure, but it'll make the job a bit different. 

Absolutely. I mean, it certainly will. I kind of totally agree. I think I often you know, when I first joined HGF, there was one of the older partners our name in. He probably doesn't listen to this. Anyway. We we got to chatting one day over lunch and he was telling me about when word processing came in and. He adopted it early and that made him quicker. And it was just then like expectation then for everybody to adopt it and for him it was no problem. Others met with resistance, others reluctantly joined. And it's really dug their heels in and tried to hold out for as long as they could not use word process. Because you know tippex cut and paste was the was the golden standard. And I often think AI is going to be like that. That's why I'm like trying to like get in there as quickly as I can and want to be a part of it. But you know, and I thought about it a. And you Once Upon a time saying you're a software engineer, probably sounded crazy to someone like how can you engineer somewhere? 

Yes, here. 

And now we're seeing the phrase prompt engineer and I'm looking at that going. Can you be a prompt? What do you mean you just write stuff in there? How hard can that be? But it is a skill. It's totally a skill. So yeah, I can totally see it all changing and developing overtime so. 

Well. So. So let's say back in 1994 when I started. I was one of the first people to have a desktop computer, so my own desktop computer, and that was a new program of having that rather than just having. Essentially a dictaphone with with with many cassettes in, and that's how you did all your work, and I've never been brilliant at dictation, and you see people that can do that really efficiently and then you using voice to text. For for dictation and people, people were like that. But also, I mean, most people. Now and what I can do about 50 words a minute typing if I if I ever need to, I can go and be a typist. No one needs typists anymore. But yeah, you you people just get used to working in that kind of way. 

Yeah, I've saved 50 words a minute nowadays when it's rookie numbers. Numbers. 

Yeah, but I can only think at 30 words a minute. 

That's the problem, isn't? Yeah, fingers are faster than my brain, absolutely. 

I think just as as a message that I'd like to leave people with is that cyber is evolving and get involved. Not that scary. The people are nice, the people are fun, and it doesn't have to be. A huge time commitment, a bit of involvement is really valued. 

And so how would people get involved? What's the easiest? What's the first thing they they could or should do to get involved, to see if they get any way inclined that way? 

I think I think if you want a first step. Is bug an e-mail to Lee and say actually is this something that I could be involved in at SEPA or have a look on the website? A look down the committees and go. Yeah, I'd quite like to be doing. You know, if you're if you're involved in life sciences, do you want to be involved in a life Sciences committee? Know do you want to be involved in the Computer Technology Committee, the patent law or something like that? So. Quite good. It's always a useful thing. Korea, because you tend to get the heads up on changes in the law early and the implications of those. It's good for your CPD because you know about these. So maybe have a look at those and then get in touch directly with CPA and say I'd like to be involved. You direct me and. I would expect that you will get a very enthusiastic reception and if you don't let me know because I'll make sure you do. 

Yeah, I guess if anyone wants to reach out to us, if they feel like that's easier for them, we can always steer them a. Hmm. Direction as well definitely. 

Cool. So at the very end of every episode, we have a bonus question. So this question was left by our previous guest who was an entrepreneur and he asked quite an entrepreneurial style question I think. So the question we have for you left my previous guest is what is something that you have been meaning to do but you keep on putting on? 

Practically everything there are so many things on my To Do List that I go oh, I really must do. I've got better. I've got. I've got better at. These are the important things and I will do those and stop worrying about the things that are less important and also realising if you haven't done it now, probably it doesn't matter whether you do it or not. But I'm terrible for that. I'm I'm terrible for. For having to be in the right kind of have to be in the zone. To do the thing and then. Can nail it. It's just sometimes it can take quite a long time to. 

You're gonna have to give us an example of. Of those things. Back. 

When it used to be like that about about doing like pattern drafting stuff you're like, no, no, no, I've got it. Got. So you got it all in your head, but actually committing it to paper and then eventually, you know, you need that bit of pressure to to do it. I mean, what else have I put off? I did 2 days of dry January. And that and that stop with that. 

Is that the 2nd of January packed it in or? 

No. No, because I because I thought I'd start. I did talk about the 6th to the 8th and then and then end up in spoons. Well, there you go. Yeah. No, I can't think of any. They're way too far down my down my To Do List. 

85 on the list you don't even know what they are anymore. 

No, no, no, that's. 

That far out. 

But I know I've been putting them off. 

I was thinking another. That's the one that always crossed my mind. I always say that I'm going to learn. Language, but yeah. 

What if you gonna do? You have to be there if. I think. 

Yeah, German. 

Yeah. No, no, my, my, my German is pretty is pretty good. Yeah, I don't. I would never use a translation in in oral proceedings or anything like that. It's too confusing. You end up with two people you end up with two people saying the same thing to you, slightly delayed. If you can understand both and, it's very confusing, so haven't done that, never presented in German though. 

No, no. I even know some German nationals who've trained here who would never dream of drafting anything in German. A letter, because they've been trained a certain way. You know how to think and how to formulate. Documents and things and they wouldn't really know where to begin in their native tongue, which I found really interesting, but I can totally get it. Never learned it's a specific language in of itself, isn't it? 

Like subsets, but I would certainly support learning learning another language, learning any other language really broadens you think. Thinking you realise how much of your thinking is associated with the language and it yeah, it's a really good. And especially if you're a Brit because no one expects it, no one expects you to be able to speak another language well. 

Shane 9. Isn't it real shame. 

Well, it is. But then what do you choose? 

It must be must be really nice to have that novelty surprise sometimes and you pop over to Germany and they see you in. Hey your English and then you start switching to German. 

They think I'm Dutch, that's. 

Or do they? 

Was that's the best compliment that I've had, was speaking German and someone went. You're not German, are you, Dutch? I must be doing pretty well then. 

Yeah, you're on the continent now. Yeah, absolutely. So if you could leave us with a bonus question for our next guest, the No context at all will always finish up these interviews with our next guest with this bonus question. So in the same vein, you've been asked one, please leave us. 

Can can can we do the the kind of? What would you be doing if you weren't doing this? In what was. 

Oh yeah. 

What was your alternative career or what did you want? You can phrase it how you want, but what do you want to be when? When you were little or what do you think you were going to be? Something something like that or what would you now choose? What do you now wish you were? 

Absolutely. So it's a three-part. What would you be if you weren't doing? 

Yeah. 

What if you want to be when you're a little? And what would? Want to be right now, OK. 

It's all the same. It's the sliding doors question of of you know, what's the alternative view? 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

That's a great one. And we have no idea who that will be asking that too. I look forward to seeing who's getting that question as well. Right. There you go.