WTF Do I Do Now?

17. Porn & Sex Addiction with Psychotherapist Anastacia Favela, MA

• Mandj • Episode 14

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Discovering your partner has a secret porn and/or sex addiction is destabilizing. At the beginning of my healing journey, I beat myself up so much for not knowing the man I lived with had a porn or sex addiction. I thought it was my fault and I couldn't understand why. 

In this episode, I interview Psychotherapist Anastacia who specializes in sex and porn addiction, and is a former betrayed partner herself! We debunk myths on why this addiction is NOT your fault.

Get in contact with Anastacia

Ready to transform your life after discovering his betrayal (cheating, p*rn use, etc.)?

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**Please subscribe and rate the show so the algorithm can help more girls find this resource and know they aren't alone in their healing journey from his cheating, p*rn use, etc.! <3

  Welcome back to another episode of what the fuck do I do now? Your go-to source for all things, betrayal, trauma, porn, addiction, education. Empowerment and healing. And most importantly, just to know that you are not alone in this, it is not your fault. It has nothing to do with you. There's nothing to do with your looks, your body, your appearance,  your personality of what you do and don't do in a relationship. 

This has nothing to do with you. And I know how easy it can be to self-blame in this situation or feel guilt or big. Oh, if I would've done something differently, if I would've tried harder, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.  A big key topic of this podcast is to help you learn that this is not your fault. 

So thank you for tuning in of course, I'm sorry that you are even in this situation, no one deserves this. You did nothing to cause this, and it's not your fault. Before we jump into the episode today, I'm super excited to announce two things. Actually, we're going to do three things. One, if you can go ahead and rate this podcast, just subscribe, follow rate at five stars or however many stars you want to give it. That's really helpful for the algorithm to push it out and then help more girls who are going through this, find this resource, because I know it's such a taboo topic, not many people talk about it and there are. There are many resources, but I know so many women are being impacted by this. 

 Second announcement. 

I'm also creating a free support group for women to be able to connect with one another. I love posting on social media. I love getting to meet other women who are going through this,  and I want a place for all of you to engage too. So I'm creating a free support group. 

 I'm so limited with what I can say about this topic on social media, because a lot of my content gets blocked and shadow banned. 

So I figured this is the best way to help speak with girls. If you're interested, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram. Just send me your email address and I'll get you added to the list. I'm hoping I launch it within the next week or so. . And then thirdly, I'm also accepting more one-on-one clients for my women's empowerment and transformation coaching service. 

So if you're in the relationship or if you already left the relationship, no matter where you are, my coaching service is all about empowering you. So it's not a magic pill to say the relationship. I can't change his behavior. I can't change what he's done, but I can help empower you with over 380 hours of trainings that I've gone through to get to this point. 

So if you. You are struggling with the guilt, the self-blame the. Just the anxiety that everything, the sadness that trying to create your new debt ID, try to figure out like what happened in life. I've been through it so hard. I get it. But it is so helpful having someone by your side, who has gone through it and can help you think about things differently who can help you regulate your nervous system 

okay. That being said, let's jump into this episode. 

So today we're going to chat with Anna Stasia. She's been working in the mental health field for the last three years in hospital and residential settings and our private practice. She has a master's in human gain, psychoanalytical psychology from the university of ESX, and is currently obtaining her master's in clinical mental health counseling from the university of west Alabama. And a Stasia started working with the porn and sex addiction population primarily since January and is in the midst of completing her sex addiction therapy certification. And a Stasia herself as a portrayed partner. Recovering codependent. And associate works as a psychotherapist in the Chicago land area. So let's dive into it. 

Welcome back to another episode of What the Fuck Do I Do Now? I'm so excited to invite our next guest, Anastasia, onto the podcast. 

So yeah, we'll go ahead and jump into it. And Anastasia, I'd love if you want to just start by setting the stage a little bit about your background and what got you into this field of work.

so I actually, my first degree ever,  my bachelor's was in journalism. And I like went into that thinking , Oh, I want to tell people's stories and I actually really loved  fashion and everything. And then What's going to do entertainment. Then I realized.  And I didn't care about that.

Like I cared about my own fashion, but I didn't care about the other people's clothes. So it just evolved. I studied in England twice, but the first time I went I was 19 and it was my sophomore year of my undergrad. And I met so many different people. And I think I want to tell like real people's stories. So  then that evolved a little bit because I started like realizing things like about myself. And I noticed that  like during the day, during school, I was like studying journalism. And then when I'd go home, I was like reading books about like psychology and spirituality and meditation. I was like maybe my like true interest is actually like in psych and what kind of catapulted me into going for getting my master's in psychology Was actually a situation where I was in a relationship with a sex addict, didn't really know it.

I was just really confused. I was 21 and I was like, what the hell is going on? Like, why am I getting messages from so many different women? Telling me things about him, warning me,

and it all blew up in my face. When I was between 22 and 23 and just the events that took place from that and the things that I like realized about myself, I was like, yeah, okay.

I definitely want to study psychology. So I  went to England for my first master's and I specifically studied union.  Psychoanalytical psychology. So it's Carl Jung's theories. So Sigmund Freud's like the father of psychoanalysis and then Jung's the father of analytical psychology. So like they were friends and then they like really split off from each other.

And so I learned about that split off from Freud. And then I came back to America and. Was just going to like work in the field. And then I was working in like hospitals and residential settings. And then realized that I was like I need to get my license or else people can like severely underpay you. But the licensing board in Illinois doesn't accept like foreign degrees. So I had to go back to school. So now. Yeah, almost done

with my second master's, which is  good. It'll look good on my resume, but it's just I'm so tired, but yeah, so that's a little bit about how I got there. And through this program, I had to get an internship and I called, I'm not kidding.

I think I called like 150 places,  trying to get into private practice. And only one place like called me back and actually had something to like offer

for a position that was a clinic that specializes in sex and porn addiction. And I had actually had 1 client in 1 of the residential settings that I worked in who had a sex and porn addiction and the the progress that he made was amazing.

And it was like, probably. My most like impactful client. So  when this place like called me back up, they were like, Oh, do you feel comfortable like working with like male sex addicts? And I was like, yeah, I actually do. They were like, okay. And then, yeah, now I've been working there for almost eight months now.

 So when you were going into psychology, did you know you wanted to work with sex addicts or did it just happen that this place that you got into

Yeah,

it?

just happened. I really didn't know. Like I thought for a while. And I, maybe one day I could still work with this population, but I really thought I was like, I think I'd want to work with like combat veterans and maybe sexual abuse survivors. I thought maybe I'd go into that space, but.  I think just, yeah, I don't know. I like when I, now that I'm working in this population and then I look back on my life, I'm like, Oh, like I, like I dated two sex addicts. I've been a betrayed partner twice over. And so

I was like, Yeah. 

I don't end up in these places by accident. Yeah, it actually feels like I'm in the right place.

Yeah,

Yeah, talk about a sign from the universe that's That out of all the places that you called it just happened to be sex addiction and you could relate to it Which you know, that's so powerful. I don't think there are any coincidences in life 

I agree.

So cool. Let's jump on into it and talk get on the sex addiction talk.

So For anyone who's listening who is new to sex or porn addiction   how do you describe to someone how a sex or porn addiction starts, or why does it start? What, why is it even present?

So my perspective on it is like an object relations like perspective. So what I'm finding with pretty much all of my clients is. They either suffered like a like an attachment injury as a child. So  there wasn't like a secure attachment with the parents or like any type of guardian or caretaker. Or there was like a significant loss in their life and then.  The porn or sex became that secure object that they could attach to that they oh, I know that if I watch porn and I masturbate, I'm going to feel good. And that's something that I depend on.

And then if it wasn't like an attachment injury as a child. Usually, like I said, there was like a significant loss and then someone was Oh, okay. If I get close to people  emotionally,  that's a scary thing. And I don't want to feel the pain of loss again. And so I'm going to get my needs met in this like very surface. Artificial way to keep myself safe. Cause at the end of the day, like sex and porn addiction is an intimacy disorder. So I think for a lot of people, it's they don't, they didn't really learn the tools to cope with  certain losses. And then like even loss of attachment, you could say, they didn't learn how to cope with it in a way that a person who doesn't have a sex addiction would. It's a couple of my clients, like  I remember for almost all of them, it's like growing up in their household, there was some sort of chaotic sort of dynamic and  porn became this thing that they, like I said, like they're like, Oh, okay everything's a mess here, but I know that I can go in my room and watch porn and I'm going to feel good.

And it became this thing that they practice.  So yeah, I would say that's how I would describe that it like starts if it's not that so they say that I think it's 80 or 90 percent of sex addicts were emotionally abused. And then I believe it's between 80 and 70 percent were sexually abused.

Wow, I had no idea. 

Yeah, and a lot of, like a lot of people as kids, they were like molested or even, raped or something. Just something that sort of interrupted that sort of natural developmental sort of like sexual understanding that we have.  Like when you're five years old, usually you have crushes on like other five year olds, like maybe a celebrity, but for the most part, you're like, Oh, I like, this other person in my class. And as you get older, it comes with you. Cause then when you're in high school, you start liking high school boys. Whereas like a person who let's say was like molested or raped by somebody. When they were young by an older person,  their brain tries to cope with what happened to me.

Like I don't.  I don't understand. And I think a way that they'll cope with the trauma is like normalizing it. So we'll say like people who become like overly promiscuous.  Cause sometimes you assign that they're like, they were sexually abused because it's their way of normalizing like, Oh, I like to have sex and I like to have a lot of sex with whoever. And it's like a way that they cope with it. And then I think there's a really good book called betrayed as boys and it's like a psychoanalytic perspective on like men who are sexually abused and how they often have these emotional addiction issues like later on. In that book, they talk about how,  like, when you're abused, it becomes part of your arousal template.

Sometimes just like an example is I had a client who he had a fetish where he specifically, he called it training wheels where he specifically wanted to  give fellatio to a man while a girl watched. And he was always trying to recreate that scenario and like asking people to be like a part of it in a way that was inappropriate. And so as we continue to talk.  I was like where does this come from? What, can you identify like the first time that this became like a thing for you? When he was seven, his like neighbor down the street they were friends and he like invited him over to hang out. And he like trapped him in his room and was like, Hey You're going to like,  give me a fellatio and my, and I'm going to force you to do it basically.

And he was like seven. And I think the kid was like 14.

And he said that he remembers doing it and he remembers the sister watching and not doing anything about it.

Brain it's like a way that your brain just tries to cope with  really immense pain and confusion when you're young. And so that kind of, that interrupted his kind of. His sexual developmental self and became part of his arousal template. 

Wow. That's so sad. Anytime I just hear about like child abuse or sexual abuse, it's oh it's, so sad when you think about how much like the timeline that it affects a person, like their entire life is not like it was just this one time incident and the kid is able to cope and then move on with life.

It gets, it's always there. And that's so heartbreaking.  And then  I'm curious. So I, yeah. I had no idea my partner was a sex addict until I found out he was a sex addict. And I don't, I laugh on here, but that's mostly just to cope and how I feel about things. Otherwise, it would just be sad to be crying all the time.

But, so I didn't find out until I went through his phone and saw him.  exchanging like nudes and sexting with porn stars. And the porn star was like, yeah, I'm an nymphomaniac and he was like, me too. And I didn't even know what that was at the time I had to look it up. And I was like, Oh, interesting. And the reason I bring this up is because in our relationship, we've rarely had sex.

Like it wasn't often. And  so in my mind, I always assumed that didn't even That a sex addict would mean you would know if you're,  if a guy is a sex addict because you'd always be having it in your relationship.  But then, I realized he was just having it with other girls. And, I've heard similar stories from other betrayed partners, and I'm not saying that this is the case for everyone, but I am curious if you,  from like a clinical perspective, if you ever do see that being a thing where is a sex addiction meaning like you just want all the time with anyone?

Or is it go back to the novelty where you just want to have it with different partners? Yeah 

like I said, like sex and sex addiction is like at the root, it's an intimacy disorder. So a sex addict for the most part is going to want to go for sex that is devoid of like emotion and intimacy because that's safer for them. A sex addict is gonna want to have sex with random people, prostitutes.  contacting porn stars over someone that they have an emotional connection with because they don't actually know how to exist in that space for the most part. I've seen sex addiction where it's like the people like they're just trying to bang as many people as possible, like where it's Almost like a numbers game.

And I've seen where sex addicts become really isolated and they just really get into things on their phone or, and it's they have a relationship with the porn and that's not an intimate relationship. It's a virtual surface level thing. And they have a relationship to. These unknown people, and that's again like a surface level sort of thing.

So the novelty piece is what I'm thinking about right now,  because I think for some sex addicts, and especially when combined with ADHD, someone with ADHD is they're even more what's the vulnerable to that novelty of watching a new porn video every day, or like Meeting a new prostitute, because it's something that kind of continues to catch their attention. But I would say if somebody, if a sex addict is. Really seeking out novelty and they don't have ADHD. Then that's just like how their specific addiction is like presenting is they just want like a new person, like over and over again. And that could also be tied to some emotional things.

It's Oh if I don't get too close to someone and it's like a new person every time, like nobody will really get to know me.  So that's also a way of continuing to hold up that wall of okay, I meet someone once they keep them at a distance, and then whereas with someone that they're in a relationship with,  that's a really scary space to be.

And so they actually don't know how to have sex in a way that is more intimate and loving. They only know how to have sex where it's like really objectified and surface level and. Yeah, it's a way of keeping themselves safe while getting their needs met and knowing that they can rely on this thing to cope with issues in their life. 

yeah, that's really helpful and even the big issue or one of the big issues in my past relationship was the lack of intimacy during sex like It just like the when we'd rarely have it when we did have it. It would feel like  He was there physically, but like mentally it just felt like he was so in a different room or like his eyes were closed a lot and it was just like  It feels so weird saying this but it was so boring and so vanilla and it was like  I'm not saying this to bash him, but it was like the most vanilla sex i've ever had and I would try to like spice things up, buy sex toys, do all this, but part of me is I'm curious if he didn't know how do I say this,  if he did not have the real intimate sex  like he didn't know the difference between how he has sex with porn stars.

I'm sure that was much, much more degrading, objectifying, like I don't want to say violent, but just more extreme compared to with me where he didn't view me in that lens. And. Since you've mentioned it a few times, could you elaborate more on what an intimacy disorder is?

So I would say someone who has an intimacy disorder is somebody who doesn't know how to get emotionally close to a person and maintain that emotional closeness.  I think someone with an intimacy disorder is someone who doesn't actually know how to access like that kind of inner. Self awareness and those just like being able to decipher through your emotions and understand yourself through that process. And then not being able to do that, you can't offer that to other people.

Yeah, and I would say an intimacy disorder is probably mainly just marked by really an inability to maintain. Emotionally focused relationship. 

I've heard that from a lot of betrayed partners and myself where it felt like at the beginning of the relationship the emotions were there, it was, you're not like talking to a brick wall, but then as the relationship developed and it got more serious, as like you're moving in together or you're having, you're getting married, whatever it may be, the, it seemed like that's when the lack of emotions seemed to be more present where it's like there's no more depth to it anymore.



Oh, yeah. And that makes total sense. And I think for someone who is not a sex addict and they're in a relationship, like those sort of transitions and difficulties are met with someone being like, Oh, okay, let's talk about this. Or Hey, let me reflect on what I'm feeling. And then I communicate that with you.

It's like the way that they cope with those  changes and transitions or obstacles in a relationship is. How a sex addict would see those sort of things happening and be like, Oh, I don't know what to do. And I don't know what to say. And I don't actually know what I'm feeling, but I know that I don't feel good.

So I'm going to do this thing that I know makes me feel good. And in doing so they continually keep themselves and they keep like a box around themselves to feel safe, even though it's not real safety.

Yeah, that's such a good point. It's not real safety. And switching topics a little bit here. I love to just ask like any professional I have on here. Cause this was  one of the hardest self limiting beliefs I had to work through throughout my healing journey was like, Oh, it was my fault.

It was because I wasn't like hot enough or sexy enough, or I wasn't putting out enough, or maybe the way I was showing up in the relationship wasn't right. Like whatever the excuse would be, like, I would believe it. But then I'd spoke to someone who said. The addictions generally start before the relationship, as one.

And on the second hand,  regardless of that, it's never the partner's fault. So if there, to any partners who are listening right now, betrayed partners who are feeling like it's their fault, just having a hard time working through that self limiting belief, is there any advice or anything you could share to help give them a little bit more of insight

oh, boy. I want to agree with. Whoever said that it usually does start before the relationship and it's never your fault. That is definitely true. Something that I could say to the trait partners, and if they're also in that space of I'm not good enough, I could have done this, I could have looked this way, I could have done this.

It's The way that I see dating a sex addict is let's say somebody's like house catches on fire and there's nothing anybody could do about the house getting caught on fire, but whoever was in the house got impacted. And I see that like when you date a sex addict, whoever comes in that person's path is  Going to get burned  and it's not your fault that you were there in that place that you were there because the next person that  ends up dating them and they Still haven't worked on themselves is gonna get burned also And I say that also from like personal experience like  both of the sex addicts that I was with when I left them  Saw other girls and went through the same thing that I did  And I was like, yeah, it wasn't me.

Something that really helped me through the process, because I remember I was angry for years. I was so angry and I was like, what the fuck did I do? Like, why did that happen? Blah, blah, blah. And I read this book that was amazing. It was, I think it was called like breaking free of a psychopath or something like that.  And the author said don't, because people would always say this to me, you need to forgive, you need to forgive, you need to move forward, you need to forgive yourself, forgive him, blah, blah, blah. But what really helped me in this book, it said it's not about forgiving this person. It's not even about forgiving yourself, but it's about forgiving life.  Because whatever happened to this person is out of your control. You crossed paths with this person and no matter who it was, whether it was you or another person crossing that person's path, you are going to get hurt.  So that really helped me to not take it so personal because I took it so personally myself.

That would be my advice.

Yeah. That's such a good analogy and I love the point where, one, talking about anger, like I feel like it's not talked about enough, like how angry you are after finding out about a sex or porn addiction. It is I think it is the epitome of female rage, like that I turned into a completely different, I didn't even know I was capable 

of having that level of anger. 

know. Same. I definitely, yeah, both times that it happened and I like found everything out. Like I told people, I'm like, I swear, like I turned into something I didn't even know existed inside of me and like the things that I said to both of these partners, I didn't even know that I could say those things to a human.

Like I, it was just pure and utter rage.

Yeah, completely. I, think back a lot, and this is like one of the PTSD triggers, or flashbacks I have, is the night I found out when I went ice. I turned into the the Hulk. But it's just the level of rage they're in the moment finding out, it, there's, you can't control it it is such a betrayal of your past, your future, your current moments,, and it's by someone you trusted, so you never expected to experience that.

 And I love that you mentioned the forgiveness of self and anger at self, because, I still haven't fully forgiven him just cause I'm like, I don't feel like you deserve that yet. I don't know.

Like I'm just not at that point. I don't care to whatever, you're out of my life. You to go do you, I'm going to enjoy my life. But the forgiveness of self and  I think that was the hardest of not beating myself up for being like, Oh, I should have caught this quicker. Oh my gosh, I can't believe I didn't notice this.

Like how did I not know? And then  Something I would love your thoughts on is I remember Like googling after just what my boyfriend did this like what does this mean and it was like Oh, he's a sociopath. He's a psychopath. He's a narcissist like it was everything and then I beat myself up even more I was like, oh my god How can I ever trust myself again if I was sharing a bed every night with a sociopath and a psychopath?

Who am I like what and it was just like Catastrophizing  just having no idea like how to believe in myself and You So I'd love to hear your thoughts if you have any advice for other women who also  are just scared that oh, maybe it was more than addiction. Maybe it was sociopath, psychopath, whatever.

And just yeah, how to work with those thoughts.

Yeah. And I understand. Cause I also went down that. Cause like I said, my first experience of this, I was 21. So I had yet to have my master's and have other experiences I've had. So I remember Googling what the fuck is, was this? Some of our sociopathic suppresses this, and it was just like, oh my gosh it was, yeah.

And I think like drowning in all of those diagnoses some things helped because they gave names to certain experiences I had and other things didn't. Yeah. With sex addicts, they're very often combined with another diagnosis. So comorbidity is extremely high in this population. So it's very possible that you can date a sex addict and they also are narcissists.

Or they also, like in my case, my first boyfriend, he had my first sex addict boyfriend. He had histeronic personality disorder and Sex addiction and hysteronic is essentially like an extreme attention seeking personality disorder and it's like different from narcissism. But  yeah, even with that understanding, it still was like, I don't know, everything online wasn't actually very helpful for me at the time.

And it was like, oh, okay. So I know he has a personality disorder. I know he's a sex addict. But it was, I don't know, it was still like, there wasn't anything helpful that I found online at that time. I think there's definitely more now, because that was like, 8 years ago. And I feel like in the last I would say 5, 6 years, I feel like like mental health and all these different. Podcasts have really surged and would have been helpful at that time. But yeah, I would say that the narcissistic personal disorder is. So overused

as well, it doesn't name exactly what you experience. And I see a lot of like self help pages that are like, he's a narcissist.  And I feel like it's really important to make a distinction that there are people who have narcissistic tendencies.  There are people who actually have the personality disorder, which is It's actually pretty hard to diagnose. And like a lot of people who are actually narcissists, like they they don't want to come to therapy.  It's really hard to actually know a hundred percent narcissist. They do exist. But I think the overgeneralization of narcissism doesn't actually give a name to. I think a lot of women are dealing with and in my opinion, I think a lot of men have an issue with either sex or porn. And I think part of that is like, how men are socialized to think about sex.  I think the porn industry really targets men specifically.  And I think men for the most part don't,  aren't socialized to have like  emotionally rooted friendships like women are, so they, they don't have that.

And I think a lot of men are really lonely. And I think we, we always say in the, in like my clinic, we always say like  loneliness equals horniness. And I think men are so much more lonely than women. So I think there's a lot there when you relate, you Start to open up like people's experiences in this population.

And yeah, just going off in the personality disorder realm as a noise helpful. Yeah,

that's so interesting. Growing up, I always thought it would be so cool to be a guy, but now I'm like, I would hate being a man. I love being a woman so much.

I love having my emotionally depth relationships. I love being able to cry and be vulnerable and it's just accepted and normal. But I couldn't handle the pressure. I don't even know if I want to say, yeah, like societal pressure, being a man where we have this false sense of like toxic masculinity, where you can't show emotions.

 It just feels so. toxic.

It's really scary. I read this book called self made man, and it's a woman who she disguised herself as a man and she already looked kind of masculine. So I think it was a little bit easier for her, but she disguised herself as a man for a year. Yeah. And infiltrated herself in like these different sort of like social dynamics, like social situations.

And then she. And I just wrote about her experiences and she talked a lot about how she was like,  I thought it was so hard to be a woman. And that's not to say that there isn't really difficult parts of being a woman,

but I do think, and I personally believe that I'm so thankful there was like a woman's movement.

We needed that.

And 



So much and we're, I think we're in a very good place right now. Things could still be better, but. I really think that there should be, like, a men's emotional movement, because I think that's crucial.

Yeah. I feel like there's, they try to have like men's mental health month, but I feel like they need more of a, I don't know, it'd just be so cool to see guys just come forward and start really talking about their emotions and talk about loneliness and talking about even how like porn is impacting them and all the side effects that  Being addicted to porn or even like watching porn 

 But I also definitely think we did need that woman's movement because we have been suppressed for so long Like the whole me too movement everything like it. It was about damn time.

I think we need that

I agree completely, 

and I don't even know if you could answer this question like from a clinical perspective because I'm sure it varies depending on the addiction. But, are there any like red flags a girl could look out for if she's  debating that her man might have a porn addiction or a sex addiction?



Because there's so many different situations. I'm trying to think  something that I've noticed like across the board. I would say number one  is that if you feel like something is off, it probably is. Out of all the betrayed partners that I've worked with so far, every single one of them like noticed something odd and they were like, that's weird.

And they overlooked their own judgments and it was like, no, maybe it's not that like I had One betrayed partner where she was finding things, finding hair and things that wasn't hers. And just noticing how he was with his phone, like being weird, like always like putting the phone down instead of like up and not, like there was, I think for the most part, every  woman that I've talked to so far is they. They feel like something's off and they notice something about the way they're handling something that is off. It's, it feels like that person has things off limits that you're like why does it feel like That person has that thing off limits and I'm not hiding that.  I would say too,  I would say sex is like a huge indicator that something is off, like if your partner is not really having sex with you at a normal sort of rate or hasn't, or if not, that at least has not been willing to have a conversation with you about why that is, then I think that's a red flag.

Because.  I know of a couple of sorts, like they don't have a lot of sex, but they've had conversations about why that is, and it's, and they're like, hey, I'm just, I'm tired or I'm busy or, or whatever it might be and it, and they have a conversation about it. It's like out there in the open.

But I think when you're not having sex and it feels like something's off, that could be a red flag. Yeah, gosh, I'm trying to think. There's so many situations that I'm like thinking of in my head. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's definitely going to be per relationship. But again, it's yeah, if you really feel like something is off, if someone is like,  there's holes in someone's story or the way that they're presenting information to you feels  I want my one, the first sex I was ever with, he, there was always holes in his story, but there was always something  I was like, that doesn't make sense.

And  there always seemed to be some issue with the phone. Like I'd call him and he'd be like, Oh no, my phone got turned off. And I was like, Oh, that's why you couldn't answer my calls for 48 hours, like just weird things.  I know like the girl that he betrayed me with. I knew something was off, like I just knew, and I would ask him and he would turn around on me and and so now now I'm like, okay, if someone's not taking accountability, pulling something around on me, and I got like a weird feeling about something now, I'm like, no no question. You can't even tell me anything different at this point in my life, but  another person that I was with. I'm like, It was so weird. He gave more information. And I realized that was a red flag, too, because he would give so much information about what he was doing and I remember at the time thinking oh, he's telling me everything, he's being so transparent.  And when I look back on it, I was like, he was, he would be like, I'd be like, what are you doing? And he's oh, I'm sitting here with my friend, she's wearing a blue shirt, I'm wearing a black shirt. And he, so he was like over giving information to paint it to look like it was something that he wasn't, but he was actually having a whole other relationship with this lady that he was with. So yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's per situation for the most part, but yeah, I would just say listen to what people are saying. Listen to their stories, follow your gut and yeah, just watch for how people handle things. And if they're hiding things.  And if they don't take accountability, 

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's perfect. And even as you're saying all the things I was nodding my head, I was like, I can relate to every single one of these and all these examples were like coming to my head of Oh, I remember my ex did that. Oh, I remember he did that. But I think the trust your gut is so important.

And unfortunately as women, I feel like we have just been conditioned to ignore gut instinct and like second guess ourselves. But yeah, I, every betrayed partner I've talked to is there was something off, but I didn't know what it was. I was, maybe I was overthinking it, maybe I was self sabotaging, like they put the blame on themselves.

And yeah, like I had a gut feeling something was off for  A year and a half? A year into our relationship, I was like, something, this isn't, something's not right. But he, everyone loved him. He was so normal. He was funny. He was my best friend. I was like, okay, maybe I'm just, maybe I'm just overlooking it.

Yeah, so there's a really good book called He Chose Porn Over Me by Melinda Tancard Reist, and I interviewed her on the podcast, but it's a collection of stories of betrayed partners who ultimately chose to leave, and they just gave like a quick synopsis of what their experience was with the porn or sex addict, and then Like a page of advice for anyone who is in that situation or considering leaving or who left.

And I would say, I'm just throwing this number out, say there was like 50 different stories in there, 49 of them all said trust your gut, trust your gut.  Every single person just said trust your gut, and it just speaks volumes on how as women, our gut instinct is always so right, but I just think sometimes we don't want to believe them.

I didn't want to believe it. I I would rather be oblivious and live in this little fantasy world where he's my best friend. Yeah, we're not having sex, but everything else is great. I'd rather just leave it like this than have to start over a new life with someone.  Yeah, I'm glad I left.

The judgment, not trusting like your judgment and like your intuition. I think that for women.  I feel like there's a couple of things at play when that happens. I think a lot of times like women don't realize that when they end up in relationships with people who are not as like emotionally intelligent as them are like on their kind of emotional level, because like I said, like  when it comes to having a sex and porn addiction, oftentimes it is coupled with Sort of an emotionally immature response to life. And when you're oftentimes, I think when women are dating men that are like emotional, not on the same emotional level as them,  they can inadvertently put the woman in like a mothering role.  I think you come at the relationship from this Oh, like  I have to bring him up.

I have to take care of him. Like I have to explain this is how this works hello. And I think that as someone. In that mother role, you like make things okay. Often that are not okay. Oh, it's okay. No worries. Like I think it's easy to get into that space of mothering as a woman, if you're with somebody on a lower emotional level as you, but if not that, I just think that women are.  Taught to be really nice,

And think and give people benefit of the doubt and just be kind and don't be a bitch and stuff like that. And so I think that when our judgments come up, we see our judgments of Oh, that makes me mean, or I shouldn't think that I have to think nice thoughts about people. And so you bypass that. But I really think part of maturing as a woman is  honoring your judgments and not seeing them as. Oh, this makes me a bad person. It's no, actually this actually genuinely protects me when I listen to that voice within. And I think it's  so crucial that process. 

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's such a good point. I'm glad you I'm glad the thought came back to you because that was so good yeah, I yeah, even in my last relationship like the emotional the differences in like emotional maturity were Obviously so off like I was much more emotionally mature But also growing up as women like we're taught that we are more emotionally mature than men So i'm like, okay, I guess I gotta mother him and teach him my conflict resolution and teach him how to You I know just like how to have conversations instead of fights and how to cope with emotions and all of that.

We're just like I never want to mother someone again. I will not do it. I will not do it I don't need any more projects. The only project I want is myself

Yes, absolutely. 

 Okay  Could we talk about closure in terms of Say you discover your partner had a porn or sex addiction and  maybe you chose to leave because they're not willing to do the help yet and Something that was hard for me, which I've also heard from a lot of other betrayed partners, is like you, obviously you ruminated on the past so much and you have so many questions, like what else did I know?

What else was he doing? What else did he lie about? And I went through a period where I was doing like heavy investigating after, but for every question I would get answered, there were like 10 more questions that came up. And  I knew I was never going to get the closure from him that I wanted. And so do you have any advice for  any woman who's Oh, if I just get this more, this one more piece of information, then I'll have closure.

And then I'll feel good.  How can you give yourself closure? Yeah.

We call that safety seeking.  And that's like a way that you actually try to find safety in the situation as like a trade partner. And I think, on some level that's like a more real safety than the safety that like I explained with sex addiction that addicts try to find within sex or porn.

But gosh, I feel like this. Piece is hard, really hard when you don't get the answers that you're looking for. And I, and even on a personal level, like I went  like crazy after I really did. And I I even I contacted partners of the people, the two people that day that were sex addicts.

I ended up like contacting people from their past.  And ask them like, Hey, like I went through this with this person. Can you please tell me what you went through and actually made a very good friend through that, which I'm thank God, because that wasn't always the case. Cause I definitely had experiences where I always, yeah through the, my most difficult relationships.

I feel like I always somehow found myself reaching out to someone to try and make sense of what I went through. And there was definitely a couple of times where it wasn't received well, but I even went that far. I remember at times, like looking up like their sort of legal records online, like trends that I go, did they ever do anything?

Just, like you try to make sense of you're like, what the hell? I would say that  though, through those experiences of trying to find answers,  in some regards, it was really helpful to get those answers. It was.  But the best closure I think for myself was Really genuinely like realizing that it was like, Hey, like I,  there's a reason why I went through this and I need to understand what that is.

And my personal belief is that as within, so without as above, so below, like if something's happening outside of me, what's happening inside of me. And I think  I felt like I was betrayed in my life because I was betraying myself a lot. And I think how we talked about just, I was always overlooking my judgments and I feel like I was, I felt like I was constantly betraying myself by not listening to that voice.  And I think in recognizing Hey if I stopped doing that, maybe I'll stop getting betrayed, like maybe somehow that will happen and I think just the process of learning about how I got into that and recovering from that, because I think I told you I was, I'm a recovering codependent I. I. did 12 step for I think for six years, I was in 12 step for CODA and that was super helpful and then just like tons of therapy myself, but  I think that was the best closure for me was just being like, Hey I didn't end up in this position by accident. And as much as I want to pay attention to this person and what they did and their history and. What they, and, just turning that light back on myself and being like, as much as I want to learn about them that's not my work in this life my work in this life is me, that was really important closure was.  Putting that,  that I back on myself and being like, Hey, no, this is, I have to stop asking why then, and honestly started asking like, okay, why me? But not in a self pity way of more in like a self introspective way. 

Yeah. I think that is such an amazing point. And I do feel That is what started to give me that closure. First of all, I also did the same thing you did where I reached out to some past partners in his life and  talking to them and yeah, just getting the validation. Like I actually met up with one of the, his ex partners, like one on one in person.

And it was crazy. We were just like sharing stories about him doing the exact same thing. I was like, wow. And I think that gave me a lot of closure and that's when it started to be like okay This wasn't about me He did this to another girl and he's going to do it to the next girl because he's not seeking professional help like that I think that was so healing but I'd say the biggest one of the biggest things that was helpful at healing was back to what you were saying Like I stopped putting the focus on him.

Why did he do that? Like why and started putting on me like Okay, this happened. It's happening. It has happened. I can't do anything to change it, like it already happened. And how can I move forward? And how can I turn this into, how can I grieve and allow myself to heal? But also how can I turn this into a positive thing?

Like what lessons is the universe or God, like whoever you want to call it, what are they teaching me? And how can I, Move forward from there, and I think that is actually what did give me a lot of the closure. 

Absolutely. Yeah. And I just want to name that yeah, I like. The one girl that I did connect with, we it was also crazy realizing how similar of like people we were,

I

was like, Oh, you're like this very kind, like very caring, like giving person that just wants the best for everyone, and it was like, I don't know. Yeah. So that was remarkable. It was like, Oh, okay. So does he seek out,  did he seek out women? That's specific.  Specifically would be more vulnerable, to his kind of tactics. And yeah. And I think just real that reinforced that I was like, yeah, it wasn't us.

Like it wasn't us. Like we were not the problem, but we were vulnerable to his shit. Absolutely.

to point out like the kindness and compassion and Something I was speaking to my therapist about and she was like, of course, he's gonna Go for someone who's more pure of heart, and kind, and caring. Cause like, why would they not want that? They're not gonna intentionally go to someone who's gonna call them out on all their shit right away, and I don't wanna say I was a pushover, but I let a lot of things slide. Which, now I know to trust my gut, and I will not do that again, that's for sure. That was the biggest lesson for sure. 

And I completely understand it. And I don't want to say that I'm jaded.  I'm in a really good relationship now. Thank God. But I find that with my current partner, I am I'm a lot more tough than I ever was with anyone. I, and I find that now if I feel something or I don't like something, I immediately I'm like, I don't like that.

Like I'm just,

and it's like now I see myself at 30 and looking back at myself at 21, I'm like, Oh my God, I did not have a backbone at 21. I really didn't.

I was just like, yeah, no worries. I just wanted everybody to be comfortable and happy. And now I'm like, no, I'm sorry. I'm not sacrificing my comfort for everyone else's comfort. Of course there are situations where. I care about other

Yes. 

I  can't really feel good, but I'm not dismissing myself so much,

Yeah. You know your worth and you know your boundaries. Yeah, I always just wanted to be like the chill girlfriend who didn't care about much. I'm like, look what that got me. Shit.

As a trans, I remember telling myself, I was like, No, I don't want to be, I want to be, like, Yeah the cool girlfriend who doesn't mind, 

back on that, I'm like, Now I want to be the girlfriend that minds.

Yeah. 

And I am

I fucking mind now. 

like, I care, come home, please. Thanks.

Yes.  I do want to be cautious of time. No, we have a few minutes left. Is there anything we didn't get to or anything you would like to say to any Betrayed Partners who are listening? 

So  specifically betrayed partners or just everybody in the situation. Or 

The mic's yours, whatever you want.  Whatever feels, whatever you feel called to say.

so I would say if there is a person who is struggling with sex addiction that is listening we say that, and I can honestly say just from what I've witnessed through working with sex addicts is  recovering like underline bold.  Recovering addicts can be incredible partners. And I think that they can learn tools that maybe they otherwise would not have learned if it wasn't for the addiction.  But I think like an addict really needs to seek help, if they want help and they can get better. For a betrayed partner. And you'd be surprised some of the stories I've heard of what different addicts have done to their partners and their partners. Decide to stay or they decide to go. And I think whatever somebody chooses, whether you decide to stay or you decide to go,  make sure that is your choice and your choice alone. And make sure that you're seeing your partner actually do the work because  you don't want to stay with someone who isn't willing to work on themselves no matter what their problems are.

But if you are with a person with a sex addiction, you Definitely don't want to stay if they're not going to work on themselves in my opinion. But yeah, if you do stay, just make sure that you're not the only one doing the work and that he's doing the work as well. For a trade partner that has left a relationship and is still going through the process of healing those wounds from that, because I feel like the.  The wounds from betrayal, like literally cause PTSD. And it's just it's a hard. Thing to overcome and not a lot of people really understand like how difficult that is. And I would say,  don't do it alone. Yeah, don't do it alone there. I didn't know at 21 that there was like a specialization in this.

There are literal therapists who specialize in betrayal, trauma, who specialize in sex addiction, who specialize in working with both of those people and can go through a disclosure process with you I had no idea that existed and it does.  And I wish I had known that earlier. And like I said, too, there's so many like podcasts now and like books and so many awesome books.

One that I like severely recommend is called the betrayal bond. And it's by Patrick Karnes. He is awesome. And I guess like he wrote that book in six weeks and I think it's like his best, 

Wow.

I worked through that with betrayed partners. Yeah, that would be my piece of advice for, like anybody that could be a part of this population.

Yeah, thank you so much for saying that. And last thing I want to say is I am so glad you said that it betrayal trauma can result in PTSD. I posted a tick tock about this  last week, and it got some good views. And so many people were laughing on it being like, haha, yeah you can't get PTSD, like girls will say anything like, that's not real trauma, you're weak minded, blah, blah, blah.

Like it was. It was savage, but then there are also so many girls being like, Oh my gosh, I didn't know this makes sense and I feel like it's something that's not talked about enough no Betrayal does cause PTSD, so I'm so glad you did mention that just to validate more women who are going through this so they don't think that they're just, I don't know weak or insecure or whatever self limiting belief they're believing. 

Oh, yeah, it's yeah, it can literally cause PTSD, you can start having anxiety because of it, you can have insomnia, you can develop depression you can have severe adjustment disorder. There's so many things that come from it. Because it rocks your world. And really like  when somebody were to develop like PTSD, it really comes from.  You have an experience that makes you feel so unsafe that your mind  has a really difficult time like coping with it. And so it, your brain's main function is to keep you safe and keep you alive. And so if you go through something that makes you feel extremely unsafe, then your brain is gonna hold on to that and be like, okay, how do I  keep out for threats?

Like, how do I remind myself To keep safe, like in your brain kind of starts to wire in this way of maybe you have flashbacks, like maybe you get triggered by a thing because now your brain sees that as Oh, that means not safety alarms. So yeah, that  100 percent it causes PTSD

like more often  

yeah, I think anyone who denies it, I mean I get, it's maybe a situation you can't understand until you go through it, but also just educate yourself on the topic before you're gonna start saying oh, bullshit you're just weak, blah, blah, blah. People are crazy on the internet though. 

than not. 

Alright thank you again so much. This has been so good. And if anyone wants to get in contact with you say their betrayed partner or their sex addict, what, one, can they reach out to you? And if yes, how, what's the best way for them to reach out to you? 

Yeah. You can reach out to me. Let's see. So my Instagram, so I have like my personal and then I have like my professional one. You could message me through there and then you can also email me. I could, I don't know, I could give you my email if you wanted to put it in the caption or something.

Yeah, I'll include both in the show notes so they can access it if that's alright with you.

Yeah, so my email, or you can message me on my psych at night. That's my professional Instagram. You can message me through there too.



Thank you again, so much Anastasio for taking your time to come on here. I'm so proud of you for so many reasons, and it's just so powerful to see. How, what can happen when we really turn our pain into a purpose. Before we head out. I know these episodes can sometimes be maybe a little bit triggering. It can bring up emotions or memories of the past. 

And so something that can be helpful is if you're ever listening and noticing that you might feel anxious, I really try to focus in on your breathing.  This just helps regulate our nervous system in general. But something that can be helpful to do is do inhale and exhale, breathing through your nose. 

So you'll inhale for a count of four seconds and then exhale for a count of seven seconds and just set a timer on your phone. And that will really help regulate you down to that rest and digest and get you out of the fight or flight. And when you're breathing,  put your hand right below your belly button and try to breathe into there instead of breathing from your chest. 

This helps activate our parasympathetic nervous system. Thank you so much for listening. And in addition, if you haven't just please go ahead and write and follow the podcast just so it can help reach more women. I'm so limited with what I can say about this topic on social media, because a lot of my content gets blocked and shadow banned. 



And if you're interested in this free support group, I mentioned so I'm creating my own. I just really want it to be a place where we can all connect and talk and know that we aren't alone and also have resources. And I'd love to have a lot of the people I interview on the podcast, come in and do some sessions with us, where we can talk and ask some questions. 

So yeah, let me know if you're interested in that, feel free to DM me. And if you're interested in doing a free discovery call about the coaching. You can go ahead and book that in the link in the show notes. And so it's not a free advice session. It is just, we talk about what you're going through, where you are, where you want to be. 

And then we'll discuss if my coaching services would be a good fit for that. Yeah. Feel free to reach out. And again, I'm so sorry going through this always remember it is not your fault. There's nothing you could've done to prevent this. It wasn't because of you. It's.  you. did nothing. It's. not a reflection of your worth. 

It's not a reflection of your body has everything to do with how their brain has been rewired from watching porn and everything to do with their own insecurities, their own trauma, their own anxiety. It is not a reflection of you or your worth or your body. You are amazing. And you deserve to be with someone who loves you and respects you, and is honest with you. 

Honesty is so important. So thank you for listening and have a great rest of your day. Bye.

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