WTF Do I Do Now?

23. Recovering from Porn Addiction While Married with Logan Huffford

• Mandj

Share episode

In this episode, Logan candidly shares his recovery story, which once involved destructive behaviors and sexual addictions that nearly destroyed his life and marriage. If your current partner is struggling with addiction, I recommend listening to this one! 

Get in touch with Logan:

Ready to transform your life after discovering his betrayal (cheating, p*rn use, etc.)?

Click below for more resources:


**Please subscribe and rate the show so the algorithm can help more girls find this resource and know they aren't alone in their healing journey from his cheating, p*rn use, etc.! <3

 Doo doo doo.  

You know how podcasts usually have intro music? There is mine.  Okay. Anyways, welcome back to another episode of what the fuck do I do now with your host, Mandy? 

 Before we jump into it, just a few  reminders, if you could just help me grow this podcast and get this. The algorithm to push us out to more girls who are struggling with their current or past partners, porn addiction, a really helpful way to do that is to just subscribe to the podcast. Like it, give it a rating, however much you want to rate it. 

And it will be super helpful because that's the only way this algorithm will help it grow and reach out to other ladies. Since I talk about very sensitive topics around sex in porn. Also second, shout out again, if you're not, if you haven't joined my private support group yet for a woman. Who are struggling from their current or past partners, poor news feel free to do so. 

The link to sign up is in the show notes  and it's just a really helpful way to connect with. Other women who are going through it and who can just validate your emotions to let you know, you're not alone through this. And this isn't your fault.  Okay. Cool. So I've rambled enough. 

Let's jump on into this podcast episode.

 Okay today, we're speaking with Logan. Hufford. Logan is in born and raised Alaska and married to a gorgeous bride. Carey who herself is a fourth generation Alaskan and together they were raising four amazing, but crazy little monkeys. Their life was a simple one. They love their family time, their dogs and exploring the beautiful Alaskan wilderness. And yet absolutely none of this should be possible today for years, Logan, to just about everything in his power to destroy his marriage and his life. But he was was a raging sex addict, porn affairs, hiring prostitutes, and more had simply become a way of life for Logan. 

He thought he had no hope, but in 2016, God began to change all that. So let's jump into it and chat with Logan.

All right. Welcome back to another episode of what the fuck do I do now? I'm super excited to invite our next guest Logan Hufford on today. I know I just briefly talked about his bio, but yeah, Logan, thank you so much for taking your time to be here and doing all the work that you're doing to help people overcome this addiction.

Yeah. I might sound corny, but like truly the privilege is mine. I'm, I love what you are doing and your mission. And so it, yeah it's an exciting honor to come on and dive in with you for sure.

Thank you so much. And so I think we can just start by jumping into  giving listeners a bit of an idea of who you are, what you're doing, and your story and just what brought you to where you are now.

Yeah. So this is a first, but I will, I'm going to start by sharing my Instagram handle, not to put out my Instagram, but because of why that is my handle. Cause I never had an Instagram the first 33 years of my life, but  on Instagram, I'm at no longer in bondage. And those are words that are very precious to me.

Because truly for the first two and a half decades of my life, which is including the first several years of my marriage, including this first several years of raising four boys,  I was in bondage to sexual addiction. So that started out with masturbation and pornography that went to the point where I was having multiple sexual affairs.

It was hiring prostitutes, phone sex. It was, It was everything. And that's specifically with sexual addiction. There was a whole host of terrible behaviors and destructive tendencies. I was a gambling addict, a closet smoker all these different things. I was basically doing all the destructive things that you could be doing. 

First and foremost, this sexual addiction was something that  I didn't feel like I could ever break free from. And as like a 23, 24 year old husband and dad,  I didn't envision a future. Where I wasn't having affairs every so often, where I wasn't looking at porn every so often. And I always, I do try to remember like when I'm sharing my story that I don't go too far into like it can be easy for me to go into narrative mode where it's,  I was this villain and this monster and in a large sense I was, and yet  it wasn't like I, only wanted to do these things.

I desperately wanted to be a good husband. I desperately wanted to be a good dad. I own my choices. Like I made choices that got me to this point where I had trained my brain to chase after these destructive tendencies. And yet I also felt like I don't know how to do anything differently. This is my mo, this is how I go through life.

It seemed like when I would get hit with a temptation, I would just make the unhealthy choice. And then I would make a series of unhealthy choices after that.  And it felt like I was in this  car on autopilot and I couldn't stop it and I couldn't, and that's of course not accurate. I made my choices, but it was this tricky balance of feeling as if I just can't stop hurting people.

And so that idea of being in bondage is something that, yeah, I didn't think that there was ever a point in my life where I could say I'm no longer in bondage to sexual addiction. And the past eight plus years has been.  A mission of recovery for myself, but also giving back and specifically over the last year, there's been a heavy focus on, Instagram, just trying to reach folks on a global scale of shedding awareness on the fact of how destructive this stuff is, but also the fact that there is hope and there is healing

Yeah, and thank you so much for that. And just sharing your story. I love what you said at the end that yes, it can be destructive, but there's also hope and healing. And so before we dive into the question, something I forgot to mention when we started for anyone who's listening. So I'm doing the style of questions a little bit differently this time, it will be less of me asking questions and it's a set of questions that girls in the private support group asked.

So I let them know I had a time about this interview and wanted to see what questions do they have knowing that they are healing from their current or past partner's porn use. So the first question being was, and I know you mentioned, so you were. Sorry, you say you were married for seven years while in

the 

several years. 

Several years.

Okay,

So we got married June 4th, 2011.  And by the time we got married, I had already had multiple sexual affairs. And I was already completely buried in porn addiction as well. 

So that was going to be the next question was did the addiction start before the relationship  and  Then that being said, what was the turning point that made you realize okay, it's gone too far now.

I never know quite how to answer this question, which I suppose I should, but and that's because there's two different ways that I answer it. So  on one hand, I recognized once we were married  and these behaviors weren't stopping. In fact, they were only getting worse. Pretty quickly, like six months, a year after I got married, that's when I, that's when I first realized I would say okay, I got a serious problem.

This is, I should, I really shouldn't be doing it. I knew I shouldn't be doing this stuff when I was engaged, but I still lied to myself and believed the lie that I'll stop when I get married. Cause we weren't living together. And so it's okay, once we're married, like it'll be me and my wife and we're living together and I, yeah I won't want to look at porn.

I won't want to like all this. And I, I believe all these lies. So once we're married,  and then pretty quickly, we got pregnant with our first born within a couple of months. So now we're pregnant with our first born son, and then he's born and it's I got all, I have all the physical reminders on earth, staring me in the face of why I shouldn't be doing these things and I keep doing them.

Yeah.  So I would say that was, that's one way to answer the question. I realized about a year in.  that this is a real problem. It's not going away.  But then there was this period of,  you could say stagnation, or you could say just progression because it did, it got darker. It got worse over the course of several years.

And  my wife, she's in survival mode. She's trying to take care of our kids. She's she's a stay at home mom. She's, planning dinners and taking care of the house. And she's got a husband lying to her. She's got a husband cheating on her. She, and she doesn't know how to respond.

And so that continued for several years.  And I would give her these staggered confessions. And I know some of your audience is gonna be familiar with this, maybe some not, but she's  This was not healthy repentance. This was not changed behavior. This was me vomiting on her  when I'm, if I'm feeling nauseous, it feels good to throw up, right?

It doesn't feel good to get thrown up on. And that's what I was doing to her. I was throwing up on her. I'm so sorry. I cheated on you again. I'm so sorry. I'll never do it again. and there was part of me that believed that, but there was no new behavior. There was no infrastructure change.

There was no accountability. And so that continued for about five years. The second way to answer your question. Is I got an ultimatum and for the first time in about five years of this  carries, she stood up to her abuser, me. And she said, all right, if there's not serious change, if you don't get serious help, you will lose me in the boys.

And I believed her. And I, that was  to say that was a pivotal point is like the understatement of the century, right? Because, but it was the pivotal point. Cause I was desperate. I was hopeless. I didn't really think that there was a way out of this cave of sexual addiction,  but I didn't want to lose my wife.

I didn't want to lose my kids. And so I was willing to try things. And the next part of my story is  I always say it's not prescriptive. It's descriptive because the next year was basically a series of like me checking boxes and doing the bare minimum and half, like I didn't get sober for almost a year.

May  2016.  And that ultimatum came in the summer of 2015,  but it was the beginning of starting to seek out resources, starting to be vulnerable and seek help. And then once I got into recovery within a couple of months, Carrie got into sexual betrayal, trauma recovery, and she started her healing journey.

Thank you so much. There's so many questions I have just from all of that, but i'm trying to stay

On script with the questions the women have sent but I think that would lead great into the next question speaking about your wife. Sorry. Did you say her name was carrie?

Carrie. Yep.

Okay, Carrie, I want to make sure I give her name. So it sounds or there were like staggered discoveries and staggered, Oh, I cheated. I won't do it again, but then it kept happening. And so were you and your wife already having conversations about porn? Did she express her feelings about porn or was there, That kind of the porn situation hidden.

And she just thought it was, I don't want to say just cheating, but there was also infidelity.

No, I, and I appreciate the way you asked. Cause  honestly, like it's not an exaggeration. We could do a series of episodes literally just about porn and where it falls in infidelity. Yeah, so she knew when we, I don't remember if it was like before, after we were engaged, but before we got married, when we were dating, she knew that I struggled with porn, that I looked at porn sometimes and I didn't like that.

I looked at it, I was embarrassed and I was ashamed. She knew that she didn't know frequency to that point. I had not had. physical infidelity. I had not gone, cross that line. And so me telling her when we were dating, yeah I struggle with porn. That was an accurate description of where my behavior had gone.

Looking back on it, there were all sorts of seeds that had been planted that were growing underground kind of thing that I didn't even realize. These, that these roots were growing. So when I said, yeah, I struggle with porn, like that, that truly did feel like that's, that was the extent of it because the flirting and the seeking attention and all my insecurities and how I was trying to feed and overcompensate the, I didn't realize  the depth of that.

I didn't realize where that was headed, but, looking back on it now I definitely see how that was playing out, but I'm sorry, that was a long way of saying she knew that I. That I struggled with porn that I looked at it sometimes and that I was ashamed of that. 

Yeah. Thank you so much for that. And it would be helpful a bit to talk about, mentioned briefly about recovery and you weren't sober for that first year and you're doing the bare minimum. And that seems to be a big Issue that a lot of the girls who I speak to and in support group are having where they catch their partner.  He says, he promises he'll change or he'll  stop cold Turkey. And then a few months later, it's another relapse. And it just seems to be this continuous cycle. And.  I get it. There's a lot of girls like how do I know  if he actually stopped watching? How do I know if he's lying? How can I tell if he's actually being genuine and will actually change versus just lying?

Cause yeah, when you're going through betrayal trauma, it's hard to trust yourself, let alone another person through all of this. So do you have any advice for  what girls can look for? What types of conversations maybe they should be having with their partner or anything on that? 

Yeah. As you're asking these questions or leading up to your question, I'm a tremendous overthinker. And so there's part of me that's like wanting to qualify this statement. And I will qualify it just in the sense of, this is my opinion. This is based on a lot of experience.  But I'm not saying this is the only way to go.

And you may disagree with me and I would be totally open to that. But for Carrie,  one of the, so this would be prescriptive in my opinion, not just descriptive of our experience. One of the biggest points of her healing was her  Essentially letting go completely of my recovery journey.  Now, that didn't mean at all that she didn't care.

It certainly didn't mean that she wasn't hoping that I would seek after healing and seek after healthy living.  But she went completely hands off.  Not, and it wasn't out of naivety either. She knew The infrastructure that I was a part of, and she knew that this was not a lightweight thing. This was not me getting together for coffee with my buddy once a week, or, me calling into a hotline every, every week to check.

This was voluntary house arrest. I was surrounded. When I say voluntary house arrest, like it wasn't part of a legal system, but it was essentially, it was that it was, I had my freedoms basically stripped away. And then slowly over time. somewhat given back to me. But it was me working with one mentor, Rick, and then a whole mentorship team of guys that multiple meetings every week, hours of homework every week, daily phone calls every single day.

I had to make a phone call. I had to take a selfie when I would go to work and not to my wife, send it to my mentor. And so she knew this structure. She knew the amount of accountability that was in my life and the amount of guys that were grilling me and holding my feet to the fire and poking and prodding and checking me for red flags, checking my BS, right?

Cause I was a liar and I was a manipulator and I was all these things. And so these guys  knew how to work with a liar. They knew how to work with an addict because they had been that right.  So she went hands off. She trusted this process and then didn't just sit at home and okay, you do you, she actively dove into her own healing journey. 

So  that, that level of hands off that level of  not trying to control or direct my recovery is something that is extremely difficult.  It's, for, I think I would imagine any woman but she would tell you that was one of the best Parts of her recovery. One of the best choices that she made was to go hands off.

And I will emphasize one more time. It was not because of naive optimism. It was because number one, she recognized that she can't control my recovery.  And then number two, she also knew that there was a very strict infrastructure that I was a part of. 

I am so proud of Carrie. She sounds so badass and smart. It's

She is. 

yeah, good for

her. And so thank you for saying all that. And then my one other question related to that would be, are there and I know what I'm about to ask would vary on a case by case basis, depending on the person, depending on how far into their addiction are, etc. Are there any ways to tell if he has truly stopped watching it? Are there any red flags or behaviors that you could look up for? 

Yeah.  This was one of my favorite, so you prepared me with some of the questions, some of the topics that we'd be going over and I was thinking through, and this was one that really stood out to me. And yet I also, I don't know how perfect of an answer I'll be able to give because it, it will vary.

Just like you alluded to, it's going to vary. So I'll try to stick with like common denominators that, should show up. Ultimately the short answer is no,  you can't know because I can't know  what anyone on earth is doing other than myself. And I, that might sound like a cop out, but I do think that there's, A piece of that is really key to any recovery journey, whether it's as an addict, codependency, betrayal, trauma is I can only control myself and I can only know what my actions are.

So I do think that we gotta start there,  but yeah, there's absolutely evidence that can be seen. Believable behavior is one if we were to write up a, like a glossary word list of words and terms that we've, that we never used before recovery. And now we use all the time believable behaviors, like one of the top one,  because Carrie was taught very early on, you, your husband, yeah, he's an addict, he's been used to gaslighting and manipulating and working the room and all this.

So yeah, don't trust his promises. Don't trust his words and his guarantees. But you can trust his believable behavior over an extended period of time. And here's the kicker believable behavior.  It could be good or bad, but you can trust someone's believable behavior.  And so she was, she absolutely was mentored in that to watch for,  is my behavior getting progressively healthier?

Not perfect, right? But progressively healthier.  Do I react when  we're riding in the car and she grabs my phone to switch to a different song,  



Cause I'll tell you right now, 

Wow.

in 2014, that wasn't happening. It was probably, it was in my pocket. It was in the center console or she was driving so that I would control the music like a hundred 

That's the same thing my ex did. Wow.

And so it's like things like that. It's a cliche nowadays, but it's true. Like the whole is the phone face up, face down? That could be one of those things, 



Using the restroom, not to get like weird, but am I in the restroom for 20 minutes?

Type of thing would happen, coming home from work. Am I letting her know what I'm doing and am I telling like this big giant story? Cause I would go both ways. I would do silence and secrecy.  I would go the other way where I'm going to tell you this giant narrative filled with all these details.

And.  Sometimes when we watch these shows or like movies that talk about how to spot a liar, sometimes there's a lot of BS in those things, but there's also truth in that. And so the idea that if I'm lying to you, I'm either going to evade conversation completely, or I'll go 180 degrees differently.

And I'm going to give you a bunch of details. At least in my experience, that is truly how I operated. I would go one or the other. So me just giving you  a reasonable and realistic answer. Is probably a good bet that I'm being honest. 

And connected to that, When Carrie and this is even something that I would say carries over to this day  because there's still muscle memory that I still have to work on. It just progressively getting healthier, making sure old habits don't come back, all that kind of stuff.  Follow up questions.

Like how do I respond to a follow up question? Just in general, I'm not even talking about like porn, just about life. That's a big deal. How quickly do I get defensive? That's a big deal. I,



Most of what I just went through, I would say those are probably Big pieces of evidence that every betrayed spouse could look at.

I will give a couple examples of me personally, not because this is going to be true for everyone, but this might be true for a good chunk of folks. I'm a Christian. I don't hold back from that. And that's a big part of my story and my journey is my faith. And even having that faith, having that relationship with my savior. 

So I've always believed in God. I've always believed in the truth of the Bible, but I always felt like it's not for me, cause I'm such a scumbag. So here's what I didn't do for most of my life as a dad was have just raw time of praying with my boys. Of, praying with my family just being real, being vulnerable because I always would have felt like a fraud and so I just didn't do that.

Hardly ever. Now I know I'm not perfect, but I know I don't have secrets. I know I don't have a double life so I can do that. But I will tell you when I have, I'll say sin, but when I have sin that has like a little bit of a foothold in my life and this could be, maybe I yelled at my kids.

Or I've just, I've been struggling with resentment, and I'm holding onto that. I, it's almost a physical limitation. I cannot pray with my boys until I get right with that.  So Carrie would know.  If it's bedtime and the boys are heading to bed and like my routine is they're older, so I'm not like tucking them in.

But I get them all, they're all in their beds and I go around and I pray with them and I kiss them all in the head and I just touch their head. And that's my routine. If I ever don't do that now, that doesn't mean I'm looking at porn. But what that does mean is there's something in Logan's heart that he hasn't gotten right yet.

So I share that just because  they're probably, for everyone listening, you. There's probably a version of that exists where your spouse, your partner, there's look for those things were like when they're right, when they're healthy, they act this way and when they're not healthy, they don't do that thing or maybe it's the opposite when they're not healthy.

They do that thing. Like I would be so much more likely to lash out in anger when I was, when I looked at porn, right? Or when I was actively in the middle of a flirting conversation with some woman on my phone, I was always on edge because I knew the crap that I was doing. I hated myself.

So I was absolutely on edge. I was way more likely to yell at the boys, be short with them, be short with Carrie. Or again,  I would maybe go the other way where I just like, wouldn't have, I would just isolate. And I would try not to talk to anyone.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for that. And  I'm going to go a little off topic here because I thought, I feel like you brought up an interesting thing about Christianity. And I had a girl come to our support group this week, a question related to it. And it was She caught her partner and he was going to go see their pastor to help him get over the addiction.

Do you have any thoughts on when people go to work with the pastor, instead of working with  someone who's I'm not trying to talk poorly on

No, you're good.

who's trained in addiction and

trained  in helping people overcome that.

Do I have thoughts? I got thoughts. Yeah. And if any if anyone listening, follows me on Instagram you've seen some of my thoughts about this, because here's the thing. I'm a Christian. I love pastors that are in my life. Pastors at my church. I love them and I love what they do.

And there are times where I will talk to them about these things. I also.  As much as, whatever my voice on instagram matters, I also hold the church to a standard because it should be held to a different standard because it has a lot of influence. And so pastors, church leaders, the church overall has a lot of influence in people's lives.

So yeah, it better be held to a standard. Yeah, the church in general, pastors in general, big blanket statement can give some of the most damaging, harmful advice to a guy struggling with this stuff. Mhm. to a woman that has been abused by this stuff. And it breaks my heart. Because what can happen worst case scenario,  or, a part of worst case scenario, This is a heck of a way for somebody to completely reject Christ for some, for somebody to completely reject the church because it's like, yeah, I was being abused by my sexually addicted spouse and my pastor told me to, be prettier and have more sex and, open myself up.

Screw that guy. I don't want to follow that, that, that Bible, that church. And it's I, if that was someone, and of course that's been a lot of people's experience. I'm not saying it makes it right for them to completely just reject it for the rest of, that's between them, but I get it.

  Don't think it's wrong at all to open up. In fact, I think if somebody is attending church and they've got a good relationship with the pastor or church, whatever, whatever that looks like, likely there probably should be a conversation I would say,  but that should not be the sole conversation.

That should not be the primary form of accountability. It's okay if that can be a part of their accountability infrastructure because part of me building an infrastructure is recognizing like I look at it, I'm adding healthy bricks to a healthy wall, a healthy infrastructure. I need all the healthy breaks I can get. 

So yeah, recovery groups. That's the giant. That's the pillar. That's like the main part of it. But my, healthy friends at the gym where I play basketball, that's a part of it too. It's a, it's a different part. It's a smaller scale. And so like my buddy at the church, my pastor my brother in law, what, like all of those things can be part of a healthy infrastructure, but ultimately when it comes to accountability, when it comes to guidance and I am sorry, I know I'm thinking about this through like the guy's lens.

So flip, this would apply, to the addict or the betrayed partner, my primary accountability, my primary mentorship sponsor, person that is helping with the healing process. It needs to be somebody who's been in my shoes, who's been in these trenches, who knows what it is to go through this darkness.

And, but it doesn't stop there. Somebody who has experienced true healing, somebody who's been, they've been outside of the cave. So again, long way of saying, I definitely, I don't think it's a bad idea to have a conversation,  but my pastor should not be the primary source of accountability. Unless he's somebody that has personally walked this road, and knows what it is to experience true healing.

And I'm just going to throw this out there real quick. Cause I. I do want to honor him  like during the darkest points of my addiction. So I did, I, Carrie was like you got to tell some people. And so this was not the ultimatum. This was a couple of years after we were married and she's you got to tell somebody like right now it was just me and her that knew.

So I told my family, my immediate family members, my siblings and my parents. And I told one of the pastors at our church and he's a guy that I do, I love very much. I appreciate him very much. And I met with him. regularly for a while. I don't remember if it was like a year or so, but it was a while and it was around this stuff.

It was around accountability for, my, my sexual addiction. And pretty quickly, I remember he told me, he was like, Logan, I don't know how to help you in this. I don't know what it is to struggle the way that you struggle. And I've told him this since. When I, like when I was going through my recovery process, I went back to him, as part of my men's process.

And I apologize for what a schmuck I was. And part of what I told him was like, I appreciated very much that he told me that  because what he didn't do was try to be like, okay, I have no clue that I had how to help you, but I'm a pastor. So I guess I better just wean it. He didn't try to do that. He recognized his limitations and I appreciate that very much.

And I wish more people pastors or non, we're willing to do that. And just be humble and say, Hey, you need some different help that I can't offer you.

Yeah, that's so powerful. Thank you. And again, for anyone listening, I'm not trying to bash any religion or pastors or push religion by any means, but it's just I've also heard a lot of women who felt like they became re traumatized in a way where they went to a pastor or, A church leader and similar to what you said, like the church leaders advice was like, Oh, we'll just have sex with him more or

that's, that's just what guys do.

It's not a big deal where so thank you for saying that.

And can I just touch on one other thing? Cause again I do want, like on one hand, I,  it's, it's impossible for me to not  at least as my default, think through things from my perspective, but obviously I realized that most people listening are not guys struggling with sexual addiction. I touched on this when you first asked the question, but yeah, for a woman and we've seen this so many times, I'm sure you've seen this so many times. 

Yeah. When a woman gets that, that advice, of just be more sexually available, just Make sure that you're doing XYZ and fill in the blank that can be very common and I've seen it so many times  and it has  I maybe I'm preaching to the choir, but I'm going to say it. did not ever. And I mean that I did not ever cheat on Carrie, whether it be through pornography, through a physical affair, flirting, whatever.

I didn't ever do that  because she didn't have sex with me enough. I didn't ever do it because she wasn't pretty enough.  Carrie is not perfect because no human is perfect, but she's freaking close to it. Like she did everything. She could be  everything to be the perfect wife, the perfect mom.  I cheated on her.

Because I had trained myself to chase after new and different. I cheated on her because I was a very unhealthy person with  no healthy infrastructure. Essentially. It had nothing to do with what she was giving me, what she could offer me and calling back to what we talked about earlier in the conversation.

The one thing that finally broke it or started to break it, was not what she looked like. It was not how sexually available she was. It was not meeting with pastors. It was  her facing her abuser and saying,  I can't make you stop, but if you don't stop, you will lose me.  And so I, I do just want to emphasize that because I don't ever want to see a woman get that feedback, that advice and think that's the be all end all.

Yeah. And thank you so much for saying that. That's a huge message. I tried to get across in my podcast, but I think  I didn't want it to obviously easier said than done to believe it, but I just think it can be so powerful hearing that from  Man or any person who has struggled with the addiction to no, it actually has nothing to do with the partner because myself.

And I've heard from so many other women where it's you try to make yourself overly sexually available because you are trying everything. So then you'll see like comments of trolls on Instagram And I go, it's cause you weren't putting out enough. Like you were boring, vanilla. And it's such a common response, but it's such a, Misconception.

And yes, thank you for speaking to that. Cause I do think it has a lot of power.

And well, and here's the thing  that, with  porn, cause I, I will say this all the time,  completely  void of what your religious beliefs are or whether you're married or not.  Porn is so wildly destructive because if I am chasing after porn, if I'm using porn,  Then I can have whatever I want, right?

I can have whoever I want. I can click to a different screen. I can change the hair color. I can do all these different things.  And I,  again I don't want to go any deeper because I'm not trying to be triggering to anyone, but it's just I control it. I am. It's an x rated version of, a five year old in a candy store that I can just have all the things and I can just pick and choose. 

And so me training myself that way, like Pavlov's dog, but yeah. With sexual addiction,  training myself that way to chase after new and different,  literally,  Carrie could wear anything, change her hairstyle, all these different things. She can only be one person at a time.  She can't compete with pornography.

No woman can compete with pornography. If pornography is the way that I have been sexually stimulating myself. And that's where I don't always share this because I,  out of context, this could sound really weird or offensive. It's  But and I'm not here to rank offenses, but porn actually trains my brain in one way. 

It's actually more destructive even than physical affairs. And I'm, again, I'm not saying that one's worse than the other, but because with porn, there's no consequences, there's no fear of rejection. And I can sexually put myself with a hundred women in one night, right?

I cannot do that with real women. 

And  it's all terrible. It's all destructive. It's all cheating.  There's, there is a destructive nature to porn that is actually above and beyond anything else in that one way  



It's the most, to put it lightly, it's the most immature way to go through life is to just, I can have whatever I want, whenever I want, with no consequences.

Right? 

Completely. Yeah. And I think that's a great segue into the next question is a girl when you're seeing like the novelty and training your brain to crave like new and different  while going through the healing journey from the addiction,  is it possible to stop looking at women in that certain way where you're sexualizing like coworkers or just random people that you see?

 Is it possible to start looking at women, like all women as human beings instead of objectifying them?

Yes.  And I want to start just short and sweet. Yes. Cause I do want there to be that hope,  but it's taken time.  



This could be true of any addiction, but what I'm about to say, I spent years training myself to be one way. It's not going to just flip a switch and now I'm not doing that anymore.

I'll put it this way this applies to the question, it applies to struggle with sexual addiction in general, but  I was in the program for two years, like almost exactly two years, my voluntary house arrest program. It was almost two years in, it was just before I graduated  that I remember having the thought, I don't think I have to have another affair.

I don't think I have to look at porn again. Mandy, I had been sober for almost two years, but about the first year and a half, probably I still felt I don't know if there was a strong enough temptation, I think I'd give in.

Wow.

remember thinking, and this is a terrible thought, but I remember thinking like  if Carrie decided even after a year and a half of sobriety, if she decided to no, I'm going to leave you,  I would probably just go back to my old ways. 

it was like two years in before I started to even have the thought process of no, even if she left me,  I wouldn't have to go back to old Logan. So it, and there's different ways to quantify like healing from sexual addiction, but the numbers, depending on what studies you're looking at and how you're quantifying it.

It's six plus years until there's Like serious long term healing, long term 

Six years.  Whoa.

in terms of yeah, that  this person is a completely different human. And

I would say, about two years in was that was the first time where, and it wasn't like there was one day, but it was around that time where I started to feel drastically different. 

And then it, yeah, it probably was like four or five years before I started to. It went a level deeper. And I guess I'll explain it this way. I felt I love how you said seeing other women as humans,



Not this overly optimistic, like white knight stuff where it's the pendulum swinging.

And then, but it's just, but you're a human being you're a human created in God's image. And you're just, you're somebody's sister, daughter, right? All these things. I give this example because this is a, this is honestly,  It's a real story, but it's like a microcosm of what we're talking about. 

So this was like four years ago. So I'm, four plus years sober, been out of my recovery program for a couple of years doing pretty darn well, not perfectly, but doing pretty well. And I was at the post office and. There was a lady who had this giant box, like literally the size of her and she was trying to carry it  and my I have some boundaries that I'm just going to, I'll probably just stick with for the rest of my life.

There's certain movies I'm just not going to watch. There's certain stuff I just don't do. I don't go to bars. There's certain things I just don't do.  And one of the things that I just don't generally do is I don't start up conversation with a woman if I don't need to, I generally don't do that.

Just because my M. O. Was to flirt with everyone, right? That kind of thing. And the first couple years of recovery, I don't care what's happening. I'm just not gonna initiate conversation with a woman unless I have to. And I would argue I needed to do that. I think for the first while I needed to just be in a bubble and just like work on myself in every extreme way.

And so I see her, she's struggling to carry this box. And I remember having the thought of I should help her.  And then I'm checking my motivations. My, am I helping her? Do I want to help her? Because like white night stuff, am I trying to help her so that she'll give me a compliment so that we can like, why would I want to help her?

What would the reason be? And it didn't, I went through this in a few seconds, but I was like checking my motivations. Just no I want to help her because nobody's helping her. She can barely lift this box. She's trying to get it through the door and into her Vehicle. I think it would be the loving thing to do would be the nice thing to do, and I think I can do it in a healthy way. 

And if anyone's listening to this dude, you got some problems, like this should not be that hard. I promise you. But this is the kind of thing that it took 



Doing life completely differently.

And so a few seconds in, I had checked my motivations and I'm like, no, I can help.

So I went, I was like, could I give you a hand with that box? And she's yes, please. Thank you so much. And I helped her with the box and she went on her way and it was all good.  But that I always remember that and I honestly that's a, it's a precious moment to me because it was one of the first times that I could go, Hey, I can exactly what you just said, I can be like a loving member of society.

It's not just that I'm not having affairs with everyone in my path or that I'm not looking at porn all the time, but I can also like, I can give back to society by just being a decent person. And I'm thankful for that because it doesn't mean that I have to.  only ever talked to my wife and my sisters and the only people I ever talked to.

But yeah it did take some time to live in a bubble for a bit and yeah, just go through step by step. Like how do I interact with life? How do I interact with people? And I'm sorry, I'm getting rambly, but it's, yeah 

No. No. No. 

taken a long time, but it absolutely has shifted.

And I'm so thankful for that. Cause it's enabled me to experience life in a way that,  Is absolutely freeing as the opposite of bond.

Yeah. Yeah. And no, you're not being rambly. This is, I wanted you on the podcast so you could ramble. Like I, I found what you're saying to be so insightful and it's also just healing for me and any women who chose to leave the relationship and never got that. Like closure to really understand like what was going on in the world of the man, but also for girls who are still in the relationship to see what the road could look like staying in the relationship.

If he's not making the active changes that you were choosing to. So I think everything you're saying is super insightful. And then on a similar note,  And again, I know when I ask these questions, I know you can't speak to everyone's addiction. Everyone's journey is different. Every healing journey is different.  But knowing what you went through in your healing journey and the support groups and the men you've talked with who are overcoming an addiction,  question is, it one? Is it possible to just to quit cold turkey? Like I have so much willpower, I'm just never going to look again.  That's the first question. And two,  is it possible to quit without relapsing? 

Yeah. So is it possible to overthink her? Sorry. Is it the first question, is it possible to quit cold turkey? Yes. There's a couple of kickers to that though. Number one, it's possible to quit. And in fact, it's possible to have sobriety just by sheer willpower, just by like gritting through it, white knuckling it.

I'm not going to do the wrong thing. It's possible. It's extremely rare.  And it doesn't lead to healing it. There's the term dry drunk for alcoholics, right? I'm not drinking alcohol, but I'm not dealing with my problems. It's the iceberg principle up here is the acting out the using the porn that down here is my insecurities and my fears and my resentments and all the crap that I don't deal with. 

It's the same thing. Yeah I absolutely believe, even though it is rare that I can grit my teeth and just not do the thing. But I'm not going to be a healthy person. My relationship is not going to move towards healing.  At best, it's going to have some sort of frozen in time stagnation.

That is, if that doesn't sound exciting, it shouldn't, because that's not what anyone should want.

Sounds like such an awful life.

It sounds really hard. 

And  not going to not tell the truth, which is, it is possible, but that's, sobriety is, And this is where I hate some recovery content sometimes because sobriety is put out there a lot of times as like the finish line and or like it's the ultimate goal. And it's no, sobriety is a terrible finish line.

Sobriety is entering the race. It's not the finish line. But yeah, it's extremely rare to get there just by willpower. It almost always takes, and it does take if I'm going to have true transformative healing, it's going to take  a team of people. It's going to take people that have been through the crap I've been through  to rip apart my exoskeleton, to rip apart my infrastructure, Rip apart how I do life, not fix a couple of things, but like completely destroy how I do things. 

And then brick by brick, rebuild a new way to do life.  That's going to take a lot more than just me not doing the wrong thing.



Is it possible to quit without relapsing? I feel like I was gonna say, it feels like a trick question. Not that you're asking a trick question. It's I guess I'd put it this way and I don't mean this to be offensive.

It's almost like that's not the question.

Once somebody has entered recovery and true healing and they're chasing after recovery at some point, they're going to be at a point where they're moving towards healing their, if they're getting, if they're going to a recovery group or they're getting sobriety coins, like they're just going to keep on getting more and more coins with bigger dates on them and they're not going to have relapsing that time.

I, that absolutely happens. But of course, all of us, every addict, Is relapsing. I feel like now I'm rambling with no I don't know where I'm going. Basically  there's going to, I think everyone's going to have an imperfect nonlinear journey. From the moment where they go, I need help. 

Sorry. You can cut all that. I'm sorry. Do you want me to re answer that? 

Honestly, I thought your answer was

great, but if you would rather say something else, you're welcome to, but I think that was, I think you're explaining it. Great.

It's making sense to me 

Okay. If you feel like it makes sense, then I'm good with it.

yeah.

Okay. Sorry. 

No, you're fine. And then I have 2 other questions that I want to get to, and we've discussed both of them, but I do  in a way again, I think there's connected tissue, like you're saying earlier. But I know this was these, both of these two questions that other girls asked were a huge things I struggled with in the beginning. So I really want to make sure we get to them.  The first one being  lot of men say that his porn use is because you're not his type in air quotes and doesn't find you attractive. Is that true? I know they say it's nothing to do with the women, but I still find that hard to believe. 

I read through this question and. The first thing that hopped into my brain is the thing that I'm going to say and I'm not saying it for shock value. If I tell my wife, if I'm looking at porn all the time, I'm a porn addict and I tell my wife that  I'm looking at porn because she's not my type that's technically true because my type is not a person. 

My type is porn. Chasing after new and different and that's a freaking depressing thing, but it's true now It has nothing to do again. It has nothing to do with her has nothing to do with her being pretty enough, but I Don't  you know?  And I do think this is true of  99 percent of addict behavior in any addiction.

I don't drink alcohol because it's the tastiest thing to to drink  I drink alcohol for a host of other reasons. Now, I might enjoy the taste of alcohol. I might not,  but that's really not why I'm an alcoholic, right? I don't look at pornography because these are the prettiest women, because these women are all individually my type.

I look at pornography because I'm impulsively and compulsively chasing after whatever new thing can give me a hit. And I apologize. The second part of the question was what?

A  lot of men are saying it's porn use, not your type and he doesn't find you attractive.

Okay. So that finding  my wife attractive, that was really a, I would view that as a totally separate thing. And I always have found my wife attractive, but it was, it was like two completely different equations. Literally it had nothing to do with,  Oh, wow, she did her hair a different way.

Now I'm not going to be tempted to look at porn or, Oh, she's wearing that dress. Now I'm not going to flirt with the woman at work.



Would dictate that might happen some days. That's never, ever how it happened. And I don't use the words always or never very often. But that is literally never how it happened.

And I realize not every guy is going to say the things that I just said. There are guys that might be, oh, yeah, I wasn't attracted to my wife or I'm not attracted to my wife or she's this or she's that. I can't speak for those guys, but I can speak for myself, which is  my wife has been drop dead gorgeous since the moment I met her and nothing to do with what she looked like.

And I had to recognize that for myself as the addict. And then of course, she recognized that for herself in her healing journey.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that so much. And even the thing that confuses me about saying oh, he doesn't find you attractive. The way I view is you wouldn't get into a relationship with someone if you weren't emotionally, mentally and or physically attracted to them. So I think it's so important to remember that a lot. Most of the time this addiction starts before the relationship. So it doesn't matter what you look like. It was already there to begin with. And you're, like you said, just like changing your hair or wearing different dress or, boob job or something like that's still not gonna be, and I say enough in

air quotes, enough to make someone stop a full addiction.

Cause again, it doesn't have anything to do with you.

Yeah. And and we could go around in circles and go through all these different examples of where this principle plays out. And ultimately it's the same principle. Principles, we can all talk about how we, I think we generally recognize, even though sometimes we may doubt it, like having more money is not going to make you happier.

It allows you to do things, but it's not going to in and of itself make you a happier person.  It's the same thing. It's it's a more twisted perverted version, but it's because ultimately money is not an equal equation to more money equals more happiness. It, it allows for opportunity in the same way.

It's Porn is not helping me have  sexual intimacy. It's not the same thing at all. It's not about,  it's not feeding the same thing  at all that a healthy relationship, a healthy affection, a healthy view of my wife. They're com, they're on two different planets. But yeah, through, through recovery, And training myself in a new way with accountability to sometimes literally but mostly metaphorically just have blinders on of just there's one woman that I'm going to check out.

There's one woman that I'm going to not in a bad way, but that I'm going to, I'm going to check her out. Not as an object, but yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna, I'm gonna view her as my sexy wife, right? I'm gonna appreciate that. There's one woman that I'm going to look for the flirty comment, and I'm gonna give her the flirty comment back.

And that, it's a beautiful thing in a monogamous relationship where that just feeds, and it builds, and it grows, and it's this beautiful thing.  And yeah if I'm looking at porn or just in case there's, if anyone doesn't look at porn, but maybe they objectify every woman that they see, or they flirt with every woman they see, but they don't look at porn, cause it was like, there's some arbitrary rule that they have.

They're not going to do that.  It's still doing the same thing. I'm comparing myself or I'm comparing my wife. I'm comparing my partner. To all these other women, to all these other things, to all these fake things, whatever. And it's, yeah there's nothing that can ever compare

Yeah. And thank you for saying that. And that leads me to the next question, which again, we've touched on a little bit, but next question was, is it possible to still have an emotional attraction towards your partner, but still have the mental desire to consume porn?

because again, speaking only for myself, that's a hundred percent. That's what my life was during this whole period of time. And this is where I very much, I get our stories, not the same as everyone's. I never wanted to just leave my wife and She's not good enough. I want, no I recognize, and this is part of why I hated myself is I never lost sight of the fact that she was gorgeous.

I never lost sight of the fact that she was my best friend and that I loved her. And this is where addiction  is not logical. Chasing after this stuff was not based on logic. I could rattle off and I would mean with all my heart, I could rattle off all the incredible qualities that Carrie had, both her looks and her personality and who she was as a mom and who she was as a friend and all these things.

And I meant it, but I, it didn't stop me from chasing after all this other crap. Cause again I did not have a healthy infrastructure, but yeah, absolutely. I did both things. Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah. And thank you so much for saying that. Addiction isn't logical because I think that is so important. A big reason I even got into researching about porn addiction and starting this podcast and speaking up about it. So I was like, okay, rationally, I want to teach myself that  I want to teach myself addiction so I can understand it because I was, Ruminating so much.

I was like obsessively thinking about everything. I could not make sense of his actions. And it wasn't until I started researching addiction. It was like, you can't make sense of an addiction. Like addiction is an addiction. Like it has nothing to do with the partner. If it was an alcoholic, if you're addicted to a different substance, I get still, even that doesn't have anything to do with the partner. And I think one of the most. One of the most infuriating comments I receive on social media is when a guy or a girl be like, Oh if he loved you enough, he would change or a man will change for the right girl, which then puts it back on the girl as if she wasn't enough and she's the reason for it.

And  I don't know where I was going with this. But it's been helpful hearing everything that you have to say.

Yeah. And I do think, everyone in recovery has. I don't mean this as a cliche. This in complete sincerity, like everyone in recovery  with whatever their specific story is, has something very powerful to say, right? Because everyone has a, there's common denominators in everyone's story, but there's differences and there's the unique circumstances.

I'm so thankful for the way that our story played out, which might be a wild thing to hear someone say. And yet Carrie would tell you the same thing. Like we're so thankful for where we are now, even though it took hell on earth to get here because of what we have now, but because of the fact that I had all the reasons in the world.

staring me in the face, my wife, my kids, all these things staring me in the face. And yet I still chose pornography. I chose flirting. I chose my addiction. It's just, it's a reminder to myself  of how crazy. And if I don't have healthy infrastructure, then I will continually go back to it. And other people are going to have a different story.

There's some of the guys I know in recovery are single and they've got a story that's completely different from mine and that I can't. I can't identify with, and that's cool because we have, we're coming from different places, right?  But yeah it's, I use the word infrastructure more than like almost any other word, because that is key.

And again, that applies to both parties here. If I'm seeking healing, whether I am the one who has done the hurt or I'm the one who has been hurt, I've got to have healthy infrastructure. And that's gonna take, that's gonna take a lot of intentionality and time, but it is possible.

Yeah. And . I love that you use the word infrastructure. And I know I said, I only had two more questions, but I'm going to hit you with another if there was a girl who was listening to this and she's in a relationship and she wants to try to make it work with her partner and she wants the partner to get help  and. Not saying that it's the girl's responsibility to have her partner do this. If the girl just wanted to send, if she wanted to send her partner a clip of here's what you need to do to start getting that healthy infrastructure in order for me to feel safe in this relationship, what would you recommend as first steps for finding that infrastructure  for him to do, not her to do?

No, absolutely. And I'm gonna say this not intending to piggyback, but just like to emphasize what you just said. There, there's nothing wrong, I think with a spouse.  like putting a resource out there and being like, Hey, here's this thing. This could be a good thing. Now, where they go after that is where it can get unhealthy, right?

If the wife is like every week being like, did you go yet? Did you call that guy? Did you do that thing? But, putting it out there, it was like, absolutely. Yeah. If I know where water is and there's a guy dying of thirst, I should tell him where the water is, but I can't make him drink it. So going back to infrastructure.

If I'm talking to basically Logan as a 22 year old, where  I didn't want to leave my family, I didn't want to not have my wife, I desperately wanted it, but I truly, I didn't know how the heck to get there.

Speaking to that guy, I cannot inject some healthy stuff into my life. I cannot inject some recovery into my life.

I've got to gut it out.  I have to rip apart how I do life  with the help of other people outside of myself.  I have to submit to their feedback. And that's not the same thing as them telling me what to do,  but it is me being willing  to expose my ideas, my routines, my thoughts to feedback,  to tough questions. 

And those guys help me to build a new healthy routine, a new healthy infrastructure, but it cannot just be that I, I have my current life and I have my current job and hobbies and routines and friends, and I'm going to add in a sprinkle of recovery that does not freaking work. So that would be my emphasis is gut out what's there.

And some of those things you can put back in, like not every guy Who struggles the way I struggled, who goes through this recovery program that I'm a part of, that's like super rigorous, not every guy. In fact, most guys don't change jobs, but a lot of guys are recommended to change jobs or in some cases they're required.

If you're going to join this program, you work up on, it's I'm up here in Alaska. A lot of the jobs are oil jobs up on the North slope where you're leaving for two weeks at a time, four weeks at a time.



Struggling with this, he's probably going to be told like, dude, if you're going to be in this mentorship program, you're.

Find a new job because that's not gonna work out. A guy, this is more extreme, but a guy might, they might be told like, Hey, you need to physically move. It's like you had an affair with the person in the apartment next door. Yeah, go find a new place, dude.  But bare minimum, giving up the rights to just go on vacation whenever they want to go have lunch whenever they want without accountability, go do this, go do that, watch whatever they want.

Like they're going to get stripped of a lot of that stuff. They're going to be exposed to feedback and external counsel,  and then slowly over time with intentionality, they're going to learn how to approach life, how to approach other people in a healthy way, but it's not going to be on their terms.

Yeah.  Yeah, that's so helpful. And then  leading into the next question, are you around to help men? Are you  focusing on helping men? Or is there any way men can get in contact with you? What does that look like?

Absolutely. So the primary way would be on Instagram  at no longer in bondage. If somebody does not have Instagram. Again, if you're listening and your husband or your boyfriend or somebody that you know it would be good for them to get in contact me and they don't have Instagram then prodigals info at creekside, a k.

com is a, an email address that we use for the recovery groups that we lead locally, me and Carrie. But that's a way that you can get ahold of me. Also if, if you want to, if you're on Instagram you can shoot me a message and I don't mind I can get on a call with a guy.

I've done that before. It's case by case basis, but ultimately if somebody wants help, if somebody needs help I don't pretend that I'm going to be the guy that's going to like personally mentor them the rest of their life, but I can be a hand and I want to be a hand, that reaches into the pit, one of the hands that helps out.

So absolutely, whatever I can do, whether it's pointing them to a resource, jumping on a quick phone call, whatever that looks like

Amazing. Thank you. And I'll include both the email and your Instagram and the show notes just so people can easily access it. And then for the last question, which I know I keep saying, I've

said this like 4 times. Last one. This is actually the last one. Is there anything we didn't get to or any. thing you'd like to last say.

 Okay I'll be honest. This is not necessarily the thing that was like burning in my head. I,  let me run it past you maybe you don't want to emphasize it on the pod.  I, a huge thing for, I talked about how her choosing to be hands off and basically let me  be at the mercy of these dudes, that was a big thing for her. I, a separate part of that was when we first when I first started attending groups, I don't even consider this like when we first got into recovery, cause it was in that year period where I was like up and down. So Carrie was my accountability partner  and she wanted to be my accountability partner.

I wanted her to be my accountability partner for some reasonable and healthy reasons. Also for some selfish and unhealthy reasons.  And that was a really hard thing for both of us to give up.  But that was something that My mentor, whose wife Patty was Carrie's mentor, like that was one of the very first things they told us when we met up the four of us, they're like, yeah, that's not gonna fly  when you're at the bank and you're struggling to not flirt with the teller.

Or, you double take at this, this ad that came up on your phone or whatever, like you don't need you need to be telling people, but Carrie should not be receiving text messages like, Oh, I accidentally did or not actually, but I made this flirtatious comment to the cashier, like she should not be getting that stuff.

Your mentor should other guys should but that is a really crucial thing that we do emphasize with every. Guy and Carrie emphasizes with the spouses that she works with is yeah, absolutely. There's not going to be secrecy. There's not going to be a double life, but the wife is not going to be, should not be the accountability partner for the husband.

Even though like in our case, we wanted it to be that way. We thought that made sense, but it was a really unhealthy thing. Cause every time I was telling her these things, even though I was trying to do the right thing, it's I was, I was giving her another stab wound. I was reminding her again, you Like



Least in that moment, like your husband's an addict and your husband's struggling to, not flirt with the bank teller, even though he's got this beautiful wife at home.

I don't, I guess I, I went into it without expecting it. If you want to share that, you can, if you'd rather not that's fine too.

No I want to share that. I think it's really important. I, one of my first like podcast interviews I ever did was with a a CSAT sex therapist and he said the same thing about accountability. He's you can't have your significant other be your accountability partner for the same reasons you just mentioned.

So I, I think, and I think it is important to and I totally understand the girls who  Want to be that accountability who want to help their partner, who, and I'm not trying to be sexist by any means, but I just think women are generally so caring and so nurturing, and you just want to help and fix and, but there's such a fine line with that.

Like it's, I get why they want to do that, but I agree with you that it's, think it just caught and can cause too much turmoil on the women 

and then one thing that was part of the emphasis coming from our mentors is especially like looking at me is you have lied and manipulated it.  and beaten down your wife for so many years. Why the heck should you be in a position where you're being vulnerable to her?

Cause maybe you're going to tell her the truth. Maybe not. You have abused that for so long. That's the last position that either one of you should be in. And I do think that was a helpful piece because it helps. I think I can speak for Carrie. It helped both of us in our own way.

Recognize. Yeah, that's just, that's not going to fly. Even though there, there were some logical reasons why it seemed to make sense at first and part of it was the opportunity as well as I didn't have other people but now I did right now. I had other guys that I could go to.

You

Yeah. Completely. Yeah. So thank you for all of this. This is amazing. I could stay here and talk for so long, but I always have to have some self discipline like, okay, we're at the hour mark. I'm going to get it

off. Otherwise this would be a three hour podcast episode, which would be so fun,

but thank you again, Logan, so much for taking your time to be on here and thank you so much for listening.

All the work that you're doing and speaking out on this and just your honesty towards this topic as well. I'll include your Instagram and your email in the show notes. So if anyone wants to reach out to you, they can there. And then for anyone listening, I also know I mentioned the support group a few times.

If you want to join the. Link to join will be in the show notes too. It's just a safe place where we can talk as girls about what we're going through, whether you're still in the relationship or you left it. Because obviously it can be very overwhelming to post on social media or to comment and just get eaten alive by trolls.

So I want to have a safe place where women can talk about it. But again, Logan, thank you so much. It was so great speaking with you and I look forward to seeing all the work. Look forward to seeing all the work that you keep doing.

absolutely. Thank you so much, Mindy. 

Thank you.

And as always just remember that this isn't your fault. It has nothing to do with you, your body, your looks, you, or anything you did or didn't do in the relationship. 

This porn is absolutely cheating, especially if you feel that way in your community and that the partner and they continue to go against your back. Your emotions are valid. You are, you're not crazy. You're not overreacting or not insecure. You are reacting very normally to a. Not normal situation. So just know you're not alone in this, and if you want to connect with other girls 24 7, I have a support group for women. 

So anytime you are ruminating or just having a bad day or want someone else's. Opinions or  whatever may come to mind that you don't feel comfortable talking to maybe friends or family or your partner about just know there is a group of. Women here who are here to support you and who have been through it too. 

And just to remind you that you're not alone. So, if you want to join that support group again, you can just check the link in my show notes.  But yes. Thank you for listening. I, yeah. We'll talk later. I never know how to end these.