WTF Do I Do Now?

25. Addiction In the Relationship with Addiction Recovery Coach Gareth Leonard

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In this episode, I interview Gareth Leonard about his experience healing from his porn addiction in his marriage and how he's helping other people heal from addiction

Connect with Gareth on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gareth_leonard/

Ready to transform your life after discovering his betrayal (cheating, p*rn use, etc.)?

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**Please subscribe and rate the show so the algorithm can help more girls find this resource and know they aren't alone in their healing journey from his cheating, p*rn use, etc.! <3

  Welcome back to another episode of what the fuck do I do now with your host, Mandy? I'm super excited for today's episode. And thanks between into your  source for betrayal trauma. Porn addiction. And just overall women's empowerment through remind you that his porn use is not your fault. 

 It's not a reflection of your body, your worth your who you are as a person, anything to do with you.  You can heal. You can get through this and it can be extremely empowering to come out on the other side of this. And so today I'm inviting Gareth Lennar to our podcast. Gareth Leonard is a men's addiction recovery coach specializing in helping men break free from destructive patterns, heal deep emotional wounds, and we reclaim their lives with purpose and integrity. Gareth has developed the Pathfinder recovery program, a comprehensive approach rooted in emotional mastery, belief, transformation, identity, alignment, and purpose driven living there. 

His work at Gareth supports men who feel lost, stuck in cycles of shame and disconnected from their true selves. He's empathetic yet direct approach helps his clients build emotional resilience, confront their inner shadows and create lasting change. When he's not guiding men towards transformation, Gareth enjoyed exploring the outdoors and finding adventure with his family. And I just want to caveat before I recorded this intro after a Gareth and I had already talked, so I already chatted with him. 

He's absolutely fucking amazing. I think this is going to be a very not, I think I know this is going to be an insightful episode for any women who are still in the relationship or who have already left and are looking for to get more understanding from the man's perspective. But as him and I were jumping off the recording when we were closing out, conversation about masculinity and how masculinity isn't this. Toxic alpha like, oh, Robin man, like so tough, ideal that societal conditioning and just the media tries to portray mannose masculinity is actually having, and he used this word, which I love is a softness and having vulnerability and showing and expressing emotions. 

And. We don't discuss this in the podcast, but I just think that is such an important reminder to. Any man who may be listening  and I know you're hearing this coming from a girl. So it may not mean as much to you because I haven't been in your shoes as a man, but it is so empowering to see men share their emotions to be vulnerable, to. Express and just be soft. 

It is, it's so beautiful to see men act like that and say, I wish I would have had that recording of Gareth saying this. After we ended the interview, but anyways, let's go ahead and dive into it. 

And  before we dive into the interview, if you could do me a huge favor and help this podcast grow and reach other women who are struggling from their current or past partners porn use, just to let them know that they're not alone. 

And that there is a resource and community of women out here who to help, who are here to help them. If you could just follow, subscribe this podcast, give it a rating that helps the algorithm push us out to more girls. And it's really the only way for podcast to grow. So that would mean heaps to me. 

If you could just help other women access this. All right now, let's jump into the interview with Gareth.

  



All right. Welcome back to another episode of what the fuck do I do now? I'm super excited to invite our next guest, Gareth Leonard. I just did a quick introduction of him, but Gareth, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing to help people overcome this addiction. And also just for taking the time to jump on and

chat with me today. 

Thanks for having me.

Of course. So let's go ahead and just set the stage. Do just give a quick overview of who you are, what you're doing and what led you to this journey of what you're

Yeah. I think I'll start with what led me here. I experienced on addiction for a lot of years. Most of my life, really. I was exposed to it pretty young, but it became more and more of a habit during my teenage years. And then just developed further, getting married.

I was 22 when I got married and carried it through there and really didn't start getting help till I was 28, 29. So a good amount of time a lot of experience with it. And when I got into recovery it took me a little bit to get fully real with myself and really real with my wife as well.

On just the depth of it there was a lot of We call it trickle disclosure where things slowly come out more and more but as I have come to the other side of recovery and shared my story with people and that really started slow because there was a lot of shame involved As I shared my story with people,  I saw the impact that it has on people's lives, or that it can have on people's lives, as they experience the same thing, they're in the same place that I was and  begin to recognize like, Oh, I'm not alone.

I've shared it with youth, 16, 17 year olds 17 year old boys and seen the impact it can have on them. I've shared it with friends. I've shared it with strangers. And  it's given me the confidence to to share more and more because If it can just impact one person, I can just reach that one person who is in that, that, that depth of addiction and misery and shame,  then  it's worth it.

It makes it worth it. It makes my story worth it. It makes the experiences and the pain that I went through worth it. And so I, I really dove deep into my own work my own healing, going deep into, in a child work and all kinds of I feel like I've tried everything at this point from the traditional and scientific and and the therapy route to the woo and energy and all of that stuff and everything in between.

So I've got a lot of exposure and a lot of experience with a lot of things and I've really just taken what has worked for me because recovery and addiction and betrayal on your side is different for everyone. Everyone experiences it differently, but there's also some similarities, a lot of similarities  and different things work for different people.

I, that's why I turned to coaching because I just, I find so much purpose in it. I find so much purpose in giving back in in making that impact on people and helping them see that there's light still that there's hope still.

Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing all that. I'm so glad that you,  obviously I'm not glad that you went through the addiction, but I'm so glad that you're now using your voice and sharing your story because I didn't know there can be so much shame around it. And yeah I'm glad that you found your passion in coaching because it's such a necessary

market.

And so I know you mentioned it started as a kid, developed more as a habit into your teen years and then eventually into your marriage. Could you talk a little bit about  when did you know it was like time to make a change when you're like, okay, I need to really, I know you've mentioned you tried it multiple times. But what was there a moment where okay, like this is it. Like I need to do

something different now. 

like you said, there was a few times there was rock bottom. I always say rock bottom is whenever you stop digging.  And it was just when I chose to stop digging was the point of  where I chose to go to rehab is where it really  changed me where I was all in on recovery. At that point.

I had been in a recovery group with a therapist an addiction recovery group that was specifically for sex addiction with other men. My wife was in a betrayal trauma group. We'd been in that for about, just over a year. We'd just had a therapeutic disclosure. With our therapists and I hadn't to that point, I hadn't been fully honest about the state of my recovery.

I'd had slips that I hadn't disclosed. And that was the agreement. My wife and I had I just was like half in, half out. I wasn't quite, there was just things that I in my mind, if my wife knew this, if I told her she would leave. And so I kept it. And through the disclosure as well, I kept it and even added in some things that weren't necessarily necessary about kind of video games.

And cause that was also a co addiction for me added some of that stuff in to almost as a smoke screen to to throw off the scent that there was things that weren't quite.  adding up and weren't quite true. My wife being the intuitive wonder that she is, a couple of days after the disclosure just followed her intuition and found some things and just came to me with some questions and my answers weren't adding up and she just felt nope, keep pushing.

And so five hours later and we had. I put it all out on the table,  finally, put it all out on the table, told her everything and that was the point where I chose okay,  we may or may not make it, but I have to do this for me and I know that if I keep going down the path, if we keep going down the path that we've been on it will end up in divorce. 

That's just the path that we're on because.  I'm hiding still. I am lying still. And  now that we're fully like, clean slate in a way, I put everything on the table for her to finally choose do I want to be with this man  with everything that I see? And so those 2 months that I took in rehab were really healing for both of us.

to  For me to hit that rock bottom and finally go all in and for her to  see everything and be like, yeah I still want to be with you. I see the changes you're now making and that's enough. Let's keep going. So

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And  I love that you mentioned Alyssa's  intuition because it is, that's something I try to get across with women too.  Our intuition is so strong when it comes to those things.

And I have heard so many women come forward, be like, Oh, he told me something, but my gut intuition, just like it was telling me there was more as I kept pushing. And then eventually more truth trickled

out.

Rehab and after you had that, like that final full disclosure with your wife, where you laid

On the

Yeah, so that final full disclosure thankfully was before rehab and then I think it was five days later. I was in rehab. And  I left. Rehab was an incredible experience. I feel like I had,  I did, Five years worth of work in 60 days. Because



At no point in my adult life, dude, is it 24 seven focused on one thing?

No distractions, no kids, no wife, nothing. We didn't have our cell phones.  We, my wife and I mailed letters to each other. During those 60 days, so zero distractions at all and have, and I was, and still can be very codependent. So everything I did was like to make sure that she was okay to make, to manage her emotions which,  very hard to be in recovery when my focus is on. 

Her and her emotions and managing her emotions and all of that  So being able to just focus on me and worry about I think it was the first time in my life where I  was Actually considering what do I want to do right now? How do I feel about this? How do I want to respond to this instead of what would be the best way to respond or to feel so that she would Be okay So that was incredible.

Leaving rehab, I feel like I was on a high and felt like it was like, I can conquer the world now. And the only way is up. And and it just wasn't the case, life is life and it's up and down. I think the overall trend has been up a hundred percent, but  it's not been a straight line. It's been like this, up and down.

And so the first kind of down that I had was  challenging. Because I was like, wait, I'm not supposed to feel this way, act this way, be this way anymore. I'm healed.  And and it's just not, I don't believe there's a point where it's oh, I am healed. I don't even, I struggle with the word healing in general because  The more work I've done on myself, the more I recognize that we're all perfectly okay.

We're all perfect just the way we are.  And the more we can accept that,  the more  self confidence, the more, the less shame we have just recognizing who we are and how powerful we are as people today, not in some arbitrary future,  that today we are these people. And and it's a process of unlearning.  All of the things that we believe about ourselves that just aren't true.

Definitely been a process. I continued in therapy. I joined back in my group. I tried 12 step for a time. And that just didn't vibe with me and I know it does with some people. And that's great for me. I  sitting in the meetings was challenging for me. It felt. And I think the 12 steps are great because they ultimately, they lead you to go inward and upward.

They lead you to go inside and figure out who am I and and be accountable. Accountability is a huge part of it. And then also a higher power, which I believe, and I don't think people need to subscribe to any particular belief, but a belief in a higher power I think is so important.

In recovery. Like I said, I went outside of therapy. I went into coaching. And recovery just became life. I don't think about what do I do for my recovery now. I just think about  me and life and how I can make my life more, how can I have more joy in my life more balance in my life, more of what I want and less of what I don't want.

How do I stay regulated emotionally rather than  how do I not look at porn? It's I focus more on those things. So my recovery is evolved in that sense, too. So that's  been a big change for me.

Yeah. It seems like some very, Does important mindset reach frames to have instead of, Oh, how do I not look at porn, but how do I make sure my

emotions are regulated? And yeah, I think that's a really cool outlook. And then what were some of the triggers that you had to overcome on your journey?

mean, there's a million.  No, it's fine. I think in the beginning, and that has evolved to obviously but in the beginning it was looking at the patterns that I lived by that that triggered the addiction cycle. One of the things that I always think of is the garage door closing when my wife was leaving,  I noticed as I became a lot more aware of myself and aware of those patterns I was living by aware of my emotions.

I noticed that every time my wife would leave, and this was even after rehab the garage door closed, started to trigger those, my brain, chemicals started going and it was like the addiction cycle was beginning. That's how granular I broke down that cycle to where just that, recognizing just that, not the point where I'm like triggered and completely dysregulated and I find myself just looking at porn, I don't know how I got here, but  to that level, so that I could put measures in place and make different choices there,  versus trying to make a choice and white knuckling at the end, right before acting out.

So those kinds of triggers were some of the the first things I started to look at, but I also went deep into,  in a child work to look at the beliefs that would get triggered. An example of that is noticing that  if I went to give my wife a hug and she was like,  I don't want to hug right now.

 I noticed I felt rejection. And that rejection told me I'm not good enough. I'm not man enough. I'm not lovable. I'm not all of these things. I began to notice just from my wife not giving me a hug, which is perfectly okay for her to do that.  If she's, for whatever reason, but usually she's just overstimulated with kids and  tired or whatever it is.

For whatever reason, she can say, no, I don't want to hug right now.  But that would be very triggering for me and noticing those beliefs that would come up and going back to where those beliefs started. When did I begin to believe that I am unlovable? I'll begin to believe that I'm not good enough. 

Or that I am.  Gross or disgusting or whatever it is that was coming up at that point. And that starts started for me with just becoming aware of my emotions. I was blind to them before I had no idea what I was feeling  from a moment to moment basis. And as I became aware of that, I noticed Oh, I'm feeling shame right now.

Why am I feeling shame? Oh, And it just became curiosity then instead of being in it and being sat in it and stuck in it and everything just feels like it's closing in around you. But you're unaware, I'm unaware of that. No idea what's going on. I just am shrinking and looking for a way out of that.

And that was my go to was. Look, going to porn for that to get out of the emotions. I was unwilling to feel when I'm willing to feel them. I can get curious with them and figure out where they even come from, why they're here, what they're trying to tell me. And so my relationship with triggers has changed a lot from them being scary because it was going to trigger me into my addiction to Oh, this is just information.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I love what you just said last about instead of triggers being scary, that's something I try to get across with my coaching clients too, is triggers can actually make such a

Because they're showing us where, Maybe a boundary is being crossed where we're ignoring emotion, where there's something isn't right.

And that's our body's way of communicating to us. Hey, I'm

trying to get your attention. Let's

fix what's happening here. So thank you for sharing that. And something I forgot to mention earlier in the podcast episode, just to anyone who's listening, all the questions I'm asking. I'm going to be asking our questions from women in my support group.

I let them know I was interviewing him and asked what questions they had. So throughout this interview, if it ever seems like I'm just like jumping around with random questions, I'm trying to make it flow as much as possible, but I also just want to make sure all the women

get their questions answered.

So that being said let's dive into the next question. This question was,  when you're active in the addiction or acting out, did it feel like cheating to you? And the follow up question was cause men often say that they don't have control over their addiction and can't help it

when they're acting out. 

But then some women struggle with the fact that the man could still take responsibility for his actions after the fact. So first question being, Did it feel like cheating to you? And how did you go about that? 

while I was active in it, I didn't have enough self awareness to even, recognize Oh, this is cheating. I was so numb to everything. I think had I allowed myself to feel that it would have completely, it would have just sent me back into the addiction cycle because there's a, there was those moments of clarity of Oh, I'm lying to the love of my life.

I am She thinks I'm in recovery, or even before she even knew about the addiction, she has no idea who this person is that she's married.  So there was definitely an awareness of  deceit and betrayal that was going on. I don't recall ever labeling it as cheating at that point.

 And I struggle in general with labels because I think they're only useful if they bring people to that, to growth and to healing and to awareness. I think labels can bring a lot of shame. I don't diagnose or label people as addicts if it doesn't support them. And. I think it can be easy to take on the identity as well of I am an addict, so I'm just going to do what addicts do instead of I'm experiencing addiction, which separates it from my own identity.

It's not me. It's something I'm doing. And it, the same goes on the flip side instead of saying I am the betrayed partner, I am betrayed. I'm experiencing betrayal.  Experiencing betrayal trauma can be so much more empowering because it separates from the identity of who you are.

So I think I had to, there was a point where I had to accept the damage that I had done to the relationship, the pain that I had caused my wife because there was a lot of betrayal, a lot of lying, a lot of deceit, even after getting into a recovery, both of us getting into a recovery program and going all in.

I was going all in. I, she was going all in. I was all in, right? There was a lot of betrayal there. And a lot of deceit there. And saying I can't help it I can't help acting out. One isn't true. You, they, I may not have had the skills at the time  to stop myself from acting out. It's impossible for me to have made a different choice because with the skills, experience,  everything, who I was at that moment in time, that's the choice I made. 

And if I could go back in hindsight, yeah, I would make a different choice because I know more now.  But I knew what I knew then and I made the choice that I made then. And that perspective has helped me reduce a lot of shame around the choices that I've made. And  I had to take responsibility that's a huge part of it.

So being able to hold space for my wife to feel what she needed to feel, whether that was anger, or rage, or sadness, or anything. I sat with her in those moments and allowed her to feel it. Even if there were times where I was like, Hey I've learned about boundaries. I should set a boundary here because she's like doing X, Y, or Z. 

And I'm not okay with that.  I had to and I still do  have to remind myself I get to take responsibility here and this is part of the healing process. This is how I create safety for her is  recognizing that I have accountability in her feeling that rich. I didn't make her feel anything, but the actions that I took. 

Cause a lot of hurt. And I think that was huge for both of us for me to finally be able to start doing that. I think a, an experience that we had that we always go back to was in her betrayal trauma group. The part of the program is to write like an anger letter and a sadness letter and a loss letter.

All these different letters that they write, just sharing with  me the anger that they feel  and the loss that they've experienced because of my addiction and so on and so forth. And I. Sat in her group  with  12 women there all who've all experienced the same thing as she read those to me.

And I sat in health space  and allowed her to share that. And that was a really healing moment for us to be able to do that.

And could you talk more about what Your experience was like when you, cause I know you mentioned before that you didn't consider it to be, or think of it to be cheating. Could you talk a bit more about your experience of what it was like when you realized the damage that it actually had caused the relationship once you gained a bit more of that self

Yeah, it definitely came in layers. I remember specific experiences often just either,  and this was at rehab either just meditating or as I was trying to fall asleep as I'm thinking and realize just meditating, as in just sitting with everything.  Moments Awareness of Holy crap.

I I almost like. And we go back, recognizing what I could have lost, recognizing what I have,  recognizing the incredible power and beauty and just  person that my wife is, that Alyssa is, and then  seeing like how much hurt and pain that she is in and just feeling the overwhelming sadness that came with that.

And there's a huge difference between  experiencing that and making it about me.  And experiencing that and just feeling it because previously I would  notice that and then make it about me and say, Oh, I am awful. I am, I go straight to shame when I'm in shame. Everything's about me. I'm just this sad little victim.

I'm the victim.  I'm the victim to my own, to the pain that I've caused her. I'm a victim to it. Because it's so painful for me 

 

I must be this awful person and that's not, it's not really helpful shame. I don't believe is helpful in any way. But being able to sit with the, that emotion of sadness of not shame, but just recognition that.

that I've done that  and the sadness of doing that and the sadness of the pain that I've caused it was painful. It was hard,  but I'd learned the skills at that point to be able to sit with that emotion and and allow it to move. And like I said, it came in layers. It's happened,  it happens way less frequently now, but it happened on a regular basis, probably the first year.

Six months to a year of rehab and post rehab

of just sitting with it and recognizing  the pain I caused and sometimes that was  in  when she's experiencing a trigger because of the betrayal because of me essentially part of that is, is just Sitting with her emotions and not making it about me that it's a process.

So

Yeah. And  from your perspective being the man in the relationship, is there anything women can say to their partner to help them understand how  his actions are impacting her or help them try to fully understand the spectrum of what's happening?

who is so  hard because I think about for me and how numb I was any time that I would,  that my wife would show me how much pain that she was in,  I would have, I would go to shame and shut down, which is  no works being done there. No healing is happening there.  And I don't think that's a problem with, I  My wife sharing  there's nothing wrong with that.

She's not doing anything wrong there.  I'm not saying she shouldn't share  it  Required me to do some work to be able to Create that safety and hold that space to be able to even hear it  It's tricky and it has to be in those moments of clarity. If it creates more shame  it's not going to Lead towards recovery it's going to lead towards Addiction.

The shame cycle feeds the addiction. So  there's no magic words, right? There's no magic words that she can say that would take  what she's experiencing and put it in to his brain so that he can experience it. His body so that he can experience it. But I think being willing to share it  which I'm sure like I can only imagine is terrifying at times.

For the woman knowing how he's responded  and knowing how I responded to that kind of thing time and time again,  it takes a lot of courage to keep coming back and keep showing who you are and where you're at and what you're experiencing rather than her shutting down as well and pulling back, which  she's going  every right to do,  every right to keep, to create her own safety.

If he's not going to create it, she has every right to create her own safety. But the more we tried to mask what we're feeling, the more we're not living in reality. And sometimes,  and often it takes going deeper into the pain to come out of it. And both of them get to see. Really what the relationship is  when we're dealing with the reality and there's that old saying of nothing changes unless the pain of staying the same  is greater than the pain of change.

Mask, the more we're making the pain of staying the same less. Instead of allowing everything to be what it is, and she is telling him, Hey, this hurts. It creates that pain of staying the same is becomes greater. And it can motivate change then. But you can, you can't force anyone to change and at a certain point, she may have to make a choice as, as far as what am I willing to do here?

What am I, how long am I willing to stay? How long am I willing to accept  him not changing?

Yeah. I think that's such an important point to, we  as a woman, we can't control or change or fix or save the man.  There's so many layers of just emotional and inner child processing and so many other things that I'm not even

aware Man has to be able to do on his own. But it is so important to just remind women like you have choices.

Like you can choose what your boundaries are and you can choose how.  Long or what you will and won't put up with it. You still

have power when it comes to that. Thank you for saying that. And  next question.  What does your attraction and love to your partner feel like now compared to when you were in the addiction? Has it

It's definitely changed. I firmly believe that we can't love anyone greater than the level that we love ourselves.  And I did not love myself, so I couldn't love and it was hard for me to accept that when I first said that concept, I was like, hell no, that is not true. I love 

 

I love  the more I've done work. The more I've realized how true that is. And we can experience love. Sure. We can experience love between in our relationships. It's not that we can't experience it, but to have true connection,  we've got to love ourselves first. And as that's changed, it has changed the way  that that love has felt between my wife and I and trust has felt between my wife and I excuse me.

And as that's changed, it has changed the way that that love has felt between my wife and I and trust has felt between my wife and I excuse attraction has definitely changed as well. I see I see things in her that I never saw before. I appreciate things in her that I never was aware of before because  my my mind and my attraction kind of template was so weighted to The physical attraction  that I overlooked so many other incredible things about her.

And I it's, yeah it has improved. It changed a lot. And and nothing's constant. Like my self love hasn't been this straight line up again either. I've gone through periods where that has dipped. And I've experienced shame again and I've handled that differently now than I did before.

 And we've created a relationship, my wife and I, where we can talk about those things and I can share what I'm experiencing and we handle it differently. And that just creates more connection. The other thing I would say about love and connection that has changed is I don't just look at the You know the good times as points of connection  I look at the real challenges and the tough times and the fights and the disconnection  as points of building trust and I believe that's where connection is and trust is built because It's easy to love someone when we're at our best when we're both at our best  but to  For us both to not show up as our best, as who we truly are and still be accepted and loved and and feel okay in that,  that builds so much trust and connection.

Because there's no longer a need to hide who we are. We can show all parts of ourselves and all parts of ourselves are accepted.  And by no means are we perfect at that. We still work on this on a regular basis. We're still working. We don't believe there's a place that we're going to get to where we're like, we're done.

Our relationship is perfect.  Everything is just a, is a a doorway into more connection.

Thank you. And for my next question, I know you can't speak for all men, this goes to all the questions I'm asking, but from your experience, if a man has had a porn addiction in the past, but simply just weaned

off of it, but never went to therapy, never really did the deep, like recovering work, is he prone to going back into an addiction in the future?

So let's say the man was like, I'm just going to

stop cold turkey. And that's

 Like you said, not speaking for all men,  but generally speaking, if it was  truly an addiction and there are markers for that, you can look them up. If you just google like the DSM, like definition of addiction, there's different markers for addiction whether that's escalation or I can't remember off the top of my head now, but there's a bunch of them.

I feel like it's,  it would be very challenging. I'll speak for myself. I needed the work that I needed. I needed the help that I needed in order to heal and to quit. I think there are people experience a habit of addiction a habit of pornography and aren't necessarily addicted and they may only use it, once every few months, but.  With any of it, like I said with labels before, it's only useful as far as it's helpful. I'm saying the same thing twice.

It's only useful as far as it leads people to actually grow. With any kind of addiction or a habit that we don't want if you want to put it that way if the addiction label is too challenging it's a way to numb out from uncomfortable feelings that we have,  things that we don't want to feel from pain, it's just a way to numb pain and we all do it.

in some way. We all have something that we know that with whether that's social media scrolling or tv or video games or food or shopping. There's, we all have something that we do where it's I don't want to feel this, I'm going to go do this instead. Obviously there are some Things that are more destructive to a relationship and to ourselves.

 And so they become more of a priority to fix at that point. So if a man has been using pornography,  I would just, and has stopped and feels like that they're good and they're not going to go back. My only advice I guess, would be to look at why they were using it in the first place.  I love the phrase, if you want to know why you do anything, stop doing it  and notice what comes up  when you stop doing it.

Notice what it is masking. 

Oh, I like

and so yeah, if you're using porn and you're not, you don't think you're addicted and you think it's just a habit and you can stop anytime, okay, stop. Give yourself 90  days.  And notice what comes up. The most powerful thing you can do is be aware. Is notice. Without noticing something, there's no way in hell you can change it.

So the most powerful thing you can do is notice it. So if you stop,  and then notice like Oh, I'm feeling really cranky. I'm feeling,  I'm getting hangry. I'm getting irritated I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling shame, I'm feeling what, notice what you're feeling, what's happening in your body, and notice the thoughts of Oh, I'm noticing that I am thinking about going to look upon now, I'm trying to figure out a way or a time or plan it out so that I can go look upon that will generate more change than anything.

And so yeah I feel like there are people who maybe can stop cold turkey and have that willpower to just stop. But what I would ask is why were they doing it in the first place  and have they done work to transform that? And they may have been doing other personal development work that has created changing in, inside of themselves to where.

They just don't need it anymore. And they've not gone to addiction recovery or anything like that. They've just  healed that part of them that was using pornography as a tool to numb out.

Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you. And then next question. As we know, porn is a supernormal stimulus, so people can start to prefer the porn over having real life intimacy or real life sex with their partner. There are a lot of women in the support group who, where their partners aren't initiated into intimacy, where their partners aren't making them feel sexually attracted, where like sex just isn't really happening.  would you say to any woman who's in that relationship and it's making her feel bad about herself as if like she's not enough, it's something wrong with her body, or she's not as quote unquote attractive to  the other girls that he's getting off to?

A few thoughts come to mind. One I personally don't relate to the men who because of their pornography use, don't initiate and don't feel  that that desire to have. intimacy with their partner.  That was never a problem for me. And I know for others it has been. So I can't necessarily speak to how to get past that.

But I do know that pornography  is a a fake or what's the word I'm looking for? A counterfeit form of intimacy that requires zero vulnerability.

And that's the key for me.  That's.  What I see as why men continually go to pornography versus true intimacy, because it requires zero vulnerability.

It's completely safe. You know exactly what you're going to get from it. There's no chance of rejection  or anything like that.

And so that's where it's not about her,  it's about him.  It's always about him. Always about him. And to the women who experience those those beliefs come up of, Oh, I must not be attractive enough and when they're comparing themselves this is true for men as well.

This is true, but like universally, anything that we seek externally, any validation that we seek externally is something that we're not giving ourselves internally. So in order for her to heal and move past that. She has to start  validating that and believing that for herself, that she is beautiful, that she is enough,  just as she is.

That she doesn't need his validation by him initiating intimacy. She doesn't need that in order to be okay. And then as the healing process, as that journey goes, and if he is doing his work and he does grow and is able to begin initiating, that becomes a bonus. Her cup is already full from her own  belief and sense of self,  and his validation just allows it to overflow.

And you have that abundant You have that abundant intimacy because I am asking it going back, going back to me, asking my wife for a hug or going in for a hug. And she says, no,  that's codependence. I'm asking not necessarily that experience, but me going to it needing a hug in order to feel okay.

And if I don't, I feel rejection and not enough and all of these things. That's codependence. I need her. To do something so that I feel okay. And it's the same vice flip side  It's exactly the same the other way around and the cause of it of how each of us got there Yes, it's important. It's important that he takes responsibility and accountability on that side

Absolutely.

both people have to take responsibility for their own healing Something my wife really was incredible at, and she saw others that that, that were stuck in this was she took so much responsibility for her own growth.

And she was like, I, not that I don't care about you, but I don't care about you. I'm growing.  I'm getting through this.

And yes, it's painful. Yes, it hurts. But. I have the power to be okay without you. And I think it has to start there, in order to come back to that connection. Because then it's two whole people, don't need each other, but want to be together.

And choose to be together.

They're out of choice, instead of  the choice being made for them.

Yeah. Yeah. That's such an important point. And even with the woman I speak to and work with, I feel like the women who make the most  progress are the women who are able to be like, okay, I'm going to de center my partner in a way, and I'm just going to get

On my healing, focus on my self love, focus on my emotional regulation, nervousness regulation to make sure like no matter whether or not the relationship.  Succeeds or not, or moves forward. I need to make sure that I'm going to be okay, regardless of the outcome. So I do think that's such an important mention to say. And then going on to the next question. What is your stance on masturbating during or after recovery? Do you think self pleasure without porn is okay? Or when you're still in those initial stages of coming out of recovery,  do you advise against all self

Not necessarily. No, I don't advise against it. I think it's completely personal choice. And  masturbation can definitely be one of those things that we use to numb out.  So it's just, it's being aware. I think. Going through a I know there's 30, 60, 90 day like abstinence programs that you can go through that to help reset things.

I think those are useful. I think it's a very personal choice and I know even within the 12 step community around sex addiction there's different ones. So there's like sex and love addicts, anonymous, and there's. Sexaholics Anonymous and the Sex Addicts Anonymous,  they even have different standpoints on masturbation.

I think it's a personal choice, and if someone is truly aware and being real with themselves on how it's affecting them, or what they're using it for, what their intention is then they'll know  whether or not it's actually useful for them. If it's actually useful for them. if they're doing it intentionally or if they're doing it habitually into no matter.

It, it come, I think to summarize that it just comes down to intention.

Yeah. And again, I know when I asked you this question,  you can't

answer for every man  and not every

man's The same. So yeah, I completely understand. And then I know we're almost at time, so I have two questions left. Actually there'll be three questions, but two from the rest of the girls. The first one being, what can men do to help their partners start to trust them again? 

Be brutally honest I was in such a habit of lying that  even after rehab I would  automatically start lying  and I got into, and what I had to do is recognize that one, it's never too late to say, wait, hold on, that was a lie. And sometimes I would stop myself mid sentence and I'd be like wait, back up instead of doubling down, like I would do before.

Let me back up. Sorry.  that was a lie. Let me tell you what the truth is and sometimes that was a day later where I would do that But being brutally honest to the level that you can and recognizing it's never too late to be honest Never too late to rectify a lie that you've told.

Cause I would get into that mindset of I've already lied, now it's going to be so much worse if I tell her, so I've just got to keep doubling down on this lie. That is one, and then two is not making her feelings about you. Her feelings what she's feeling what she's telling you is not about you.

It's her emotions. It's what she's experiencing and  Every time you make it about you and you go to shame and you go to victim and you say oh This and that and I don't know that takes away from her experience  But if you can hold that space and just say be that safe space, be that container I can hold all of this, that's okay it's okay that you're feeling that way, it's okay that you're mad, it's okay that you're yelling, it's okay that whatever it is,  and obviously there's lines and boundaries  that we don't cross there punching and  physical violence and abuse, probably not okay, but if she's just like yelling and you're okay with that,  Great.

Hold that space for her.  I promise, if you can do that, coming out of the other side of that, like, when I was able to start doing that for my wife, it went from those moments where she was yelling, or where she was mad, or feeling whatever, just always escalating, always being a flashpoint for things to explode,  it like, it peaked, and then it comes down.

And then, you can reconnect.  And the trust is slowly being built the more you do that.

Yeah.  And I'm glad that you mentioned the yelling to obviously I'm not saying Oh, just go yell

at That's not the case, but there are times when you have been in this relationship for so long, you feel like you're not being heard, your boundaries keep getting crossed and you just reach a point where you just start yelling because it's communicating patiently may have not been working.

And again, I'm not saying just go scream at your partner, but I do think It's beautiful to hear you say allow her to yell and just hold that space. And then I have another follow up question  on that. What are your thoughts on technology and the relationship, specifically like having full access to his

Since getting into recovery, I,  even to this point, if she says to me, Hey, can I see your phone real quick? There it is.  No questions asked. I don't care anymore. I  don't,

like I was saying to her recently,  it's actually changed a lot. It used to be where I would give her it and I would feel fear like, Oh, is she going to find, I know I've cleaned everything up, but is she going to find anything?

And now it's Oh, is she going to see an email that I haven't responded to all followed up on? That's where I'm at now. But  I, I.  It all comes down to agreements, ultimately. He has every right to say no, but what do you want? Do you want to create safety? Do you want to create trust?

And she doesn't have a right to see his phone.  If you can sit down and have that conversation you can create so much safety there and make agreements. agreements over. I feel like we need way more agreements in relationships than we do boundaries. And I think boundaries is such an abused term in general.

Because we always people tend to make it about the other person and say I need to see your phone. That's my boundary that I get to see your phone. No, that involves,  His freedom of choice and boundaries are always about ourselves. It's what I'm going to do protect myself.  So her boundary might be  if you refuse to show me your phone, I'm going to do X, Y, or Z.

That creates a lot of a lack of safety for me. That I am feeling a lot of fear. And so what I need to do to help to support myself is X, Y, or Z. And that might be her leaving the house. It might be her going to stay in a hotel room. It might be whatever it is for that person.  That's why I feel like we need so much, so many more agreements than we do boundaries.

My wife and I had a, had an agreement that if I had a slip I would leave the house for the night and sleep somewhere else. That was an agreement. She wasn't making me do that. It wasn't her boundary to say, nope, you don't get to be in this house. We had, we made an agreement. And so sitting down and, Figuring out what those agreements are as far as technology access and things like that, I think is vital.

And it might be a red flag if he's no, you're not seeing my phone.

I think it's a major red flag. I don't know personally, if I was in a relationship and I don't

cheat. Have an addiction. And if my partner's let me see your phone, be like, okay, sure. You're going to see some like embarrassing, like photos and like selfies of me that like, I might feel embarrassed about, but you can have access.

But if a man, I remember my last relationship when I'd asked to see his phone, he'd throw up such a fight. And that was a huge red flag to me. It was like, you. You must be hiding something because I will voluntarily show you mine. But yeah, I do agree back to what you said. It's all about just building safety and trust.

Like he has a right to say no. However, does he want to help create this sense of safety and trust for her knowing that maybe he has been caught

whatever the act may have been.  he has a right to privacy. But what do you want most? It's what it comes down to. We want a lot of things. We want privacy. We want whatever it is. What do we want most? We want connection in our relationship and trust.

Yeah. So last question was, if you could give any advice to  betrayed women, what would it be? And then second question would just be how can people get in contact with you?

Like, Work with people? Just Talk about

Yeah, absolutely. Biggest advice to women who are experiencing betrayal. I think just, and this I haven't been on your side. So I, it's easier said than done as is the case with really all of this. Sometimes it's easier said than done. It's easier to talk about and talk about the principles, but  actually doing it Is can be very challenging at times. You always have power.

You always have control. You are always in choice. And and this may be,  I don't want to trigger people intentionally, and I'm not, you're not a victim. This is a pathway to your own growth and you're  into who you are as a person.  And the more you can lean into this happened for me versus this is happening to me.

Completely.

You can start to see like how powerful and how incredible you are with or without him.

Yeah, I think that's amazing advice. Honestly, I was very much so in a victim mindset when it first happened to me, but then I was like how can I use this to benefit me? And how can I grow? And how can I evolve? And how can I create a whole new life and a new me? And, The sense of power that I can give you coming out of it is so strong.

So I do appreciate you saying that. And again, I'm not trying to

Pain. Of course, you didn't specifically choose this part. You didn't ask him to do this to you. Like you, you were blindsided very much, but you still do have power. So I, yeah, I think that's beautiful that you said that.  And again, of course it is easier said than done. I  would actually apply that. It does take a lot of work and mindset. And yeah, there's a lot  involved in order to get to that mindset.

Absolutely.

And

then lastly, so how could people get in contact with you?

Yeah. So my Instagram is my primary social media that I use at Gareth underscore Leonard. DMs are great. I respond to all of them. Follow me. Instagram is the best way by far. I have information there on, on my program and coaching. I've done, I have a lot, a very holistic approach to coaching in general.

It's addiction recovery. And I'm a certified somatic coach as well. So I bring a lot of that in too. So my Instagram content in general is pretty, it's not just like addiction. It talks a lot about emotional regulation and sitting with our feelings and things like that.

I tried, I like variety in general. So I try to bring variety to my content as well as much as I can. But that's the best way.

Amazing. I didn't know you were somatics too. That's really cool. That makes sense. Why a lot of your content is tailored that way. I love it. And yeah, that's amazing. Was there anything else you wanted to say

Just thank you for having me on. I know, this,  some of the concepts. Like we said, easier said than done. They can be very challenging. A lot of the concepts I've talked about. Number one, when I first heard them,  I rejected and was like, no, that's not the way it is. And then as I like  have grown, I've realized like, Oh yeah, this makes sense.

This is so empowering living this way. And then two because it's easier said than done. I never want to be a hypocrite. I am not perfect in any of these things. I still struggle to regulate emotions at times. I still struggle to to open up to my wife at times. I still struggle with so many of these things.

I've grown so much. Where I am now is so different to where I was six years ago. But I'm sure you experienced this as a coach as well, where we're talking about these concepts, but we're not perfect in them ourselves. We just like we know they work when we 

Yeah. 

but sometimes we don't use them because we're dumb or we're triggered or whatever it is.

I think  I wouldn't want anyone to put me on a  pedestal and say, Oh, he's got it all figured out. that would be the last thing I would want to say.

We're human at the end of the day, everyone still makes sense. Vulnerability is still scary. We still and self doubt. It's yeah. It's not like all of those emotions just go

away. We're very human. All right. Thank you so much. I really appreciate this. And for anyone listening, I'll include his Instagram handle in the show notes.

You can reach out to him. But thank you again, Gareth. This was amazing and very eyeopening. So

Thank you. for all the work that you're doing.

 All right. Let's give her a round of applause to Gareth. Woo. I'm clapping what? I have no idea. If that sun will come through.  Anyway. So I know I mentioned it during the interview that these questions were submitted by girls in my support group. If you haven't joined the support group yet. Feel free to do so the link is in the show notes and yeah, it can just be super helpful to have a place to know. One, you're not the only girl going through this. 

There are so many women going through this and it's not a reflection of you or your worth. And it can actually be a really empowering place to have to receive validation from other women and to get advice and to see. I just know that there's other women who are battling this and together we can rise up together. So if you want to join that, feel free to join the show notes. 

And again, if you can just help me. Have this podcast grow to reach more women who are healing from their current or past partners porn. Use feet please subscribe, follow. Give it. Or. Five star rating or force or however many stars you want to read. . But just to help, that's how the algorithm pushes this out to help other women access this. All right. 

Thank you so much. I hope you have a good rest of your day. And just remember this addiction has used, it's not a reflection of your work. It's not reflection of your body not being enough or your looks or anything to do with you. You. Are amazing. You are creative. You're intelligent. You are strong, you are resilient, you are capable and you will get through this. 

You, you got this.