36. Men NEED to Tell Women About Their Porn Addiction

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Transcript

  Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of What the Fuck Do I Do Now? A safe space where we talk about all things healing and empowerment after their cheating porn use and betrayal trauma to remind you it's not your fault in hearing is absolutely possible. I'm your host Mandy, a certified woman's empowerment life coach, trauma-informed relationship coach, meditation teacher, and trauma-informed breathwork teacher. 

 Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode. So in today's podcast episode, I was being interviewed by Thomas and Mary from the Beyond Compulsion Academy. So before we dive into that, I'll give you a quick. Breakdown of  who they're, what they do. Essentially, they help people overcome their porn addiction.

So the method that they use is taught by Mary, who's worked in addiction recovery for over 35 years, and Thomas, who was stuck in a porn addiction for over nine years. So the method that they use is called the Beyond Compulsion Method, which uses rational emotive therapy to help clients rewire addicted neural pathways using a personalized specific five fact script.

So imagine instead of going around in circles trying to stop watching porn  they give you an a four piece of paper with five facts on it. And these five facts are based on in-depth education and addiction. And if you're like, what the fuck did you just say? I, I recommend checking out their program.

I have a link for it in my show notes. It's an amazing program helping people overcome porn. So if that's something you're looking for, I definitely mind checking it out and yeah, let's dive into the episode. All right.  

 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Help Is Here podcast, brought to you by the Beyond Compulsion Academy. I'm really excited for today's podcast. I am joined by Mandy, host of the What the F k Do I Do Now podcast, and also Mary Paulus. In this episode, we're going to be talking about betrayal trauma and talking through  the partner's perspective on porn addiction.

So I'm really excited to get into things and Mandy, do you want to start off by introducing yourself and talking a bit about your journey and where you're at now and what you've been up to really since we first spoke quite a while ago?  Yeah, of course. Hey everyone. And Tom and Mary, thank you so much for having me on.

So my name is Mandy. I am a woman's empowerment and trauma informed relationships life coach. Also specialize in meditation and trauma informed breath work. And then also have a podcast called WTF do I do now. And, or what the fuck do I do now? Um, but yeah, I focus on the partner side of porn addiction and porn use, cheating, infidelity, betrayal, trauma, all of it, and focus on empowering the women after having gone through it myself almost two years ago.

Um, I can go into my story, but I, I guess my question would be for you. Like, I feel like I could talk about it for hours. So do you just want me to give you like a brief cliff notes version or what would be helpful for you? Honestly, as much as you're willing to share really, you know, it's your space to share.

So, you know, if you're talking for 20 minutes, that's fine as far as I'm concerned. Cause I think it is really interesting to hear your story and it's such a different perspective on it to what we're used to. Cause so often we're talking about porn addiction form. The guy's side, but how it impacts their partner is also so important, and it's important to the people listening to this as well.

So, yeah, as much as you like, really.  Yeah, for sure. I'm an open book. I'll just give a bit of a CliffsNotes version, and then feel free to, like, stop me along the way if you have any questions. Um, so, I went through my betrayal trauma about Close to two years ago, I was living with my partner and we had a dog.

We were in a multi year relationship. Like when I met him, I very much so thought he was my Prince Charming. We were living this like amazing, wonderful life. And  throughout the relationship, we started to have difficulty with like intimacy. Like we weren't having sex very often. And I kept bringing it up.

I was like, just feeling so like unworthy, undesirable, like what's wrong with me? Like we were literally getting fights about it. And I was like, why do you not want to have sex with me? I don't understand what's happening. And when we moved in, it just got worse. And then  porn started to become an issue in the relationship.

I did not know porn addiction existed. I had never heard of it. I did not take it seriously because I didn't know. Um, so we would start to get into fights. And what would really hurt me was.  I'd find out who's watching porn and I'd be like, we haven't had sex in two weeks. Like, why are you going to these other women?

Like, what is wrong with my body? My face? Like, what am I doing wrong and bad? Like I was trying like to get like all like the bedroom toys that we were buying all the laundry. Like I was trying to do anything I could like spice up the bedroom and nothing was keeping his attraction. And then I just started getting curious about porn.

So I was like. This is weird. Like, I've caught him multiple times watching it, and I would just start asking more questions. It would lead into fights. It was, his response was always very much so like, oh, like, this is what guys do. Like, it's just a fake fantasy world. Like, it's just a girl behind the screen.

What's the big deal? Like, you're being insecure. You're being jealous. Like, and I would just break down. It's like, it feels like you're cheating on me. My self esteem was being eroded. I  Like I just didn't feel like who I was, uh, when we would go out in public, I would always like watch his eyes to see if he was checking out other girls.

Like I would wear baggy clothes out in public. Cause I didn't want my body being compared to these other girls. And  it was, it was so hard though, because like, aside from all of that, we had an amazing relationship. So that was what was really difficult. It's like, when I tell my story, people are like, well, why didn't you just leave?

And it's like,  yes, that was. The sex and the intimacy was an issue, but I was at the end of the day, I was like, he's my best friend. We have so much fun together. Like we are living together. We have a dog together. Like it was, it was everything I wanted. So I just kind of put the sex to the side. Um, but then as the relationship started  going and I started going to therapy, cause again, like my self esteem was. 

I was like, am I the issue in the relationship? Like, what am I doing wrong? And the more I started working on like my personal development and my self growth, the more, when we have arguments, I would start to see like the line and the manipulation and the gaslighting, and I feel like I kind of had like an awakening a bit in the relationship, um, and. 

Long story short, we, uh,  I'd say the last, like, two weeks of our relationship was very rocky, like, very high highs, very low lows. Again, I did not know porn addiction existed, and there were just these weird red flags going on. And, like, my gut intuition was like, something is off, something isn't right. But, like, everyone in my family loved him, my friends loved him, he was, like, the most charming person.

And then eventually, one day, I just went through his phone and caught him getting a hotel room with a porn star. And I was like  Whoa, like things just escalated a lot. It  turned into obviously a huge argument. I left our apartment that night and I never saw him again. Like we broke up. I moved all my stuff out within that next like week or two.

My friends helped move it out. Um, yeah. And I was just,  oh my God. The healing journey was so So crappy just like  thinking you're in this relationship and then discovering this person had a secret life. I also found out he had a secret sex addiction and he was hooking up with girls, our entire relationship.

He was on all the dating apps. He had another girl that lived in a different state and what.  Well, something I try to describe, like, explain to men is, honestly, at the end of the day, it wasn't even the porn that was bothering me as much, it was just, like, looking back, it's the lies and the disrespect and being told that I'm crazy or I'm insecure or, like, something was wrong with me and just not  being given the honest truth of what's happening and,  yeah, I was diagnosed with PTSD, like, it was, it turned into a whole thing, I almost took my life and that's why I speak up about it now because as, like, crazy or extreme my story might sound to someone.

It's happening to girls all the time. Like, I have so many girls in my DMs who are going through the same exact thing and unfortunately, I  mean, it's great that  People who are struggling with porn addiction have the help and the resources, but it's very few and limited resources for the women because society just has such a stigma.

It's like, oh, well, if you're guys watching porn, it's because you're not putting out enough or something's wrong with you or like you're failing as a girlfriend or wife. And  so girls believe it, which isn't true. So that's why I'm here. That's my story. I know it's a lot. Let me know whatever questions you have.

Yeah, no, thank you so much for sharing that, first of all, and honestly, it's just like heartbreaking to hear how it impacted your self esteem and your life, because we don't really hear about that side of things, and we talk a lot about  Junkie thoughts, so any excuse, rationalization, justification to engage in the compulsive behavior. 

And it sounded like your partner was basically using his own junkie thoughts, so his own addictive part of his mind,  to basically blame you and completely gaslight you, when, as I'm sure you now know, it wasn't to do with you at all, and it was his addiction, but that doesn't take away the harm and the pain it caused you, which is always,  you know, that's always gonna That's the problem. 

That's a big, big problem that we have. And I think a lot of men don't seem to  recognize that side of things necessarily. So Mary, do you want to kind of come in here and maybe share a bit on your story or any sort of initial thoughts? And then Mandy, I've got quite a few questions to kind of follow up, follow up on. 

Yeah, you know,  just listening to you. I mean, it kind of brings back a lot from my story, but I didn't.  And I think similar to you, I didn't find out the real extent of it until afterwards. And my, my partner of 17 years actually took his own life. Um, and it was about a little over two years ago. So, um, But I didn't find out the extent of the,  you know, cheating and I make notes.

So if I'm looking down, that's, I'm not like playing games on my phone or something, making notes. So that's like the cheating versus the addiction. You know, I, I,  it's deceitful. Yes. It's, it's the cheating. It's so horrible to go through and to find out everything after the fact that, you know, because.

Because of the lies, you, you believe what you, what you're told because you want to believe what you're told because you have this investment in this and this is what you, you want, you live together, everyone loves them, you have your dog, you know, this is your life and, and you're going to be giving up your life if you call it out, you know, or what you think your life will be with this person, you know,  but I didn't find out the extent of the addiction.

Jen. Until after the fact when he was gone and he wasn't there to continue the lies because they were very believable, all of them, obviously, um, but I think that, you know, we, we, you hear, you hear people say, well, this is what they do. Right? So they minimize the porn addiction.  And obviously, I'm a lot older, you know, and with your generation, it's like there's so much porn addiction that, that the guys that are getting involved with porn addiction, most of our, most of our clients are older.

It's like the standard. We ask, how old are you when you first got involved with porn and almost everyone says 11. It's, it's so developmentally, you know, to get involved with porn and then, and then here they are, you know, you know, when they're young, that's, it's one thing they're getting super addicted in their neural pathways, but then they get a little bit older, go out and try to establish a relationship.

And then it comes to the forefront because obviously  when you have an addiction, Jen. You're not going to be able to be successful within a relationship, you know, but if you can kind of take you know Look at it as addiction versus someone who's being  Deceitful and betraying you it takes it's not as personal and maybe not as hurtful to you You know because it's just something they developed and  and the other thing is you've mentioned the help and the resources out there  In my estimation, the, the help and the resources that are available to guys struggling with porn have just made it worse, and Tom and I have talked about it, you know, ad nauseum on our podcast is just like how much the treatments for all addictions are creating more addictions, so.

These guys are in a world of hurt as well, and you know, you don't want to be like, Oh, the poor babies or whatever, you know, because they are choosing their actions. But  when they don't have an effective way to deal with it, it just spirals out of control. And then, you know, then there you are. And a lot of women are really being hurt by this.

So this will be good for the guys to listen to. As far as another benefit to being able to stop the addiction is. Stop hurting women, you know, you're hurting, you're hurting women and it's hard not to take it personally, right? So here you are thinking, you know, it's me, it's my body, it's my face, it's whatever you, the things you said, you know, it's, and it's not, it's, it's not that, it's, it's addiction because, I mean, think about it  as if you, your, your partner has a heroin addiction or a cocaine addiction or, or alcoholism or whatever, you know, it's like, You wouldn't be questioning your own self worth.

You know,  anyone wanna, yeah, I suppose it's kind of like one of the symptoms is a very severe symptom of being in the addiction, is that you are gonna cause absolute agony to your loved ones. And  I think men do need to take more responsibility and stop normalizing porn addiction. That is very hard when you live in a society where it is normalized.

And when I was growing up, you know, I got into porn when I was 12 and with my first girlfriend. I was deep in a porn addiction at that point, and I hold my hands up, and I cheated on her numerous times. And honestly, the guilt that ate away at me  was horrendous for years. And I knew because of that I had to make a change.

So,  as the perpetrator of something so despicable, You know, I can hold my hands up and say, look, what I did was wrong,  and I needed help, and I guess I didn't have that help that I needed back then, and I normalized it, and I justified it, and I made up excuses, and came up with my own  bullshit, junkie thinking, and justifications, because I was in the addiction back then, but that doesn't make it right, um,  And unfortunately, I guess I, I was able to,  to learn how to overcome the addiction because it is such an important thing to do, and I still feel bad for doing what I've done in the past, but  I guess I do see it as part of the addiction, which offers me, personally, a bit of relief.

Uh, because I know, with a clear mind, there's no chance I'd ever do anything like that.  So Mandy, do you want to share a bit more about what you're doing today and how that healing journey has been and maybe what you've discovered about porn addiction since all of this came about about two years ago? 

Yeah, um  Oh, there's so much I could say on this topic. Um, something I do want to bring attention to, because you're briefly talking about this. I am actually working with a journalist right now who's writing about an article about porn. And so we surveyed, um, it was just on my Instagram story. So it's not like a legit survey, but it was like 400 to 600 girls.

Just ask them questions about how their partner's porn use impacted them. I'm going to pull it up quick. Cause going back to how you're saying like, Or how we've been talking about how girls take it as a personal like attack against them. Um, so I asked one of the questions I asked was just like, how has his porn, has his porn use negatively impacted your self esteem?

And 100 percent of the girls said yes. Like I have never  said, say,  Say I've spoken to, I'm going to take an estimate, like probably 10, 000 people about porn, specifically girls. And I've never met one girl who has ever said that it did not negatively impact her self esteem, that it did not make her start comparing her body to other women like when she goes outside or when she's scrolling on social media.

And there's so many girls who don't even want to leave their house anymore because just seeing girls now in like provocative clothing. Or just having to like watch their partner's eyes to see if he's checking out other girls, like the level of anxiety is just so insane. And so I really just want to highlight how  damaging it is to girls self esteem.

And, um,  yeah, there was another question too, when I asked. Another question was like, how has his porn use impacted you? They could choose from four options. The first one was feeling insecure about your looks and body. The second one was having a lack of trust for yourself and others. The third option was having anxiety.

And the fourth option was all of the above. And out of 500 girls, around 500 girls, 78 percent said all of the above.  Yeah, like every girl experiences  like  so much of it. And then another question was how has your partner's line about porn affected your perception of honesty in the relationship or has it?

Has your partner lying about porn affected your perception of honesty in the relationship and 99 percent of them said yes, like it completely erodes the trust you have for this person and  it doesn't even like erode the trust you have for them, but it also erodes the trust you have for yourself because you're like, how did I miss the signs?

How did I know this was going on? Then you question you're a judge of character and, uh, There was one other one I wanted to do. Let me see if I can find it.  Oh, this one. Um, I asked if his porn use has impacted your perspective when you're being intimate with him, like when you're having sex with him. And 99 percent of the girls said yes.

And that's a huge issue I hear about girls too, is like, when they discover their partner's porn addiction, or just porn use in general, they get really afraid to have sex with their partner, because they're like, I don't know if he's thinking about other girls, if he's thinking about porn scenes, which We know he often is and it just like erodes that intimacy, which is heartbreaking.

And I went on a little bit of a tangent. I'm trying to circle it back to your question, um, about what was it again? What do I do now? And I  just want to say though, like, thank you for sharing those stats with us, because I think it's so, so useful for us to have this conversation, because I think the problem with porn addiction for a lot of guys we're working with.

And just in general is that it is so normalized and we basically need to heighten these consequences to actually face the reality of it. And so hearing the partner's perspective is really quite crucial and being one of the big steps towards doing that because people in the porn addiction, they're acting as if this is some normal fine thing, like everyone does it so it's okay.

But I mean, those stats are not okay, you know, so I think it's really, really worth highlighting that. Mary, do you want to chime in here? Yes, I do.  So a couple things. So one of the main things we do with the guys is we get them to separate porn addiction versus A sexual relationship with a woman or with a person.

I mean, we have, we have, you know, gay clients, whatever, with a partner, right? With an actual human being, right? Separate that porn addiction versus that. Cause they're really two completely different things, even though they've been wired to think, okay, porn orgasm, you know, it's all wired in there, but got to separate those two, you know, for, for starters, because.

And I think, too, it would be helpful for the partner, you know, that's with someone who's in a porn addiction that wants to try to stop at least, you know, if they don't even want to try to stop, I mean, move on, you know, but if they want to try to stop to, to separate those two, because they really are separate issues and try to look at it as is.

An addiction as if they were addicted to drugs or whatever else. But the other thing, um,  is the, the trust issue, you know,  when we talk about gaslighting a lot, that's a very popular, buzzy word right now. Everyone's, you know, being gaslit by their partners or whatever. But when someone has an addiction, their gas, the addictive part of the mind is like the biggest gaslighter, like gaslighting the person to not.

To not believe their own reality about what is happening with this addiction, you know, and how they really feel. It's, it's, it's junkie thinking, you know, it's basically, they're convincing them that they're crazy, that it's really all okay. And so then here's the partner that's has the porn addiction is gaslighting is passing on that gaslighting.

to their partner and now you feel like you can't trust yourself. You can't trust anything. You can't trust him. What's happening? You feel crazy. That's what happens when you're being gaslit, right? But it's being kind of passed down, you know, and, and there's, there's studies that, you know, With addiction, with addictive thinking, junkie thinking can be so convincing to the person that's experiencing it and then they pass it on to people around them, you know, I mean, we just had a guy message today about his wife saying that he shouldn't stop using nicotine, you know, because of the junkie thinking that he's had around it.

You know, they can convince people around them that it's a good idea to engage in their addiction because, well, if you stop nicotine, that's going to be too much, and he's going to stop porn too, and then you're going to just be an asshole, you know, it's just like,  addictive thinking is so convincing, and without that education, you know, it's, It can be really futile.

And then you end up feeling like, um, something's wrong with me. I'm I'm crazy. I don't know my own reality when it's being passed on from the addictive part of the mind of the person who's, who's experiencing the porn addiction. You know, they're being gas lit by their own mind. Um, and I think that's a great point about  how you said, like, now the partner just feels like she's going crazy.

And I would say that's probably one of the biggest things that girls come to me with is they get stuck in this position where they have to decide.  Okay. Am I going to stick with him through his addiction recovery when he relapses? Or like, at what point does the line in the gaslighting manipulation, do I put my foot down and say, this isn't addiction.

Like you're just being a straight up asshole to me right now, which I do see a lot of women just kind of getting to their wits end where they're like, he said he would stop. I caught him doing it again months later. And then he told me that I was being crazy. And it just like, is this repetitive cycle?

And I think that's. that's like one of the most difficult things being the girl in the situation is you have to walk this very fine line of if you want to stay like okay but what are you going to tolerate so that you're not enabling the behavior and if you want to leave okay like what what's your what's your breaking point when do you leave and it's sad that it really does come down to a breaking point because most girls do try to stay and save the relationship but i'm seeing more like a lot of younger girls are leaving and a lot of the Elder girls like trying to stay which makes sense.

You have a family you have kids with them But I see like this wave of younger girls now being like he was lying the entire relationship Why am I gonna stay with him? Which it's it's a shitty situation for everyone to be involved in.  Yeah, you know  In in my book. I wrote a book called beyond food compulsion, which is the work I did  Well, I've worked with all addictions, but I worked with food compulsion For many years, uh, in depth and one of the one of the categories in the addictive part of the mind revealed is called the land of confusion.

And and if you think about when your partner is telling you all these things. These women probably one of the things they feel a lot is I just feel so confused, right? Mm hmm So a product of addictive thinking and being passed on to you and what they say to you It doesn't make any sense to you, right?

Because you know people don't understand addiction. They don't understand addictive thinking They're just trying whatever they can to try to make things better and you end up just feeling totally confused and and that's really another part of um of addiction that people do not understand and it's It's, um, unanswerable questions that come up and, and those can be infinite.

So we deal with that a lot in our class too, but,  you know, just, uh, again,  that I was going to say when you said it's a fine line, fine line between enabling, you know, when are you enabling and not really taking care of yourself.  And the thing is, is there's so much of that because.  These guys, no matter how bad they want to stop.

And I'm telling you what they want to stop. Our guys are trying so hard and they're, a lot of them are doing really well, but most of them are, again, like I said before, they're going into these, um, online, you know, sites and whatever, no FAP, whatever, all the different brain buddies, all that crap, right.

Making it worse. So they're trying to substitute healthy behaviors to try not to think about it. Everything is to try not to think about it.  They want to stop, you know, so you can have that compassion, but then they don't have any effective treatment. You know, hopefully they can find Tom and I, and really make some progress, you know, but  thing is, is where do you, where do you decide, you know, this is enough because they keep relapsing.

Right. And, and this is, you know, you're now you're enabling, right. Yeah, just a point on that, it's quite interesting for me to kind of reflect on my three proper adult relationships in my life. So the first one was around 15, 16, went on for about five years on and off, and I was in a deep porn addiction where I wasn't even at the point where I was like acknowledging it necessarily as a problem.

And I think that's probably where the majority are actually at, to be truly honest. I think the majority of people consuming porn and the people probably In your, uh, study mandi are probably guys who are watching porn and they've not even acknowledged yet that this is a problem So I think 90 plus are watching porn about trying to stop the behavior and then we're obviously working with the guys who are actually at that level of trying to stop and That's the level of sort of awareness that people listening to this will be at.

Um, but yeah, I was at that level of awareness where I wasn't really aware it was that much of a problem. I was doing it totally normalized and I was, you know, cheating on my girlfriends, just didn't really care to be truly honest. I was just so desensitized to my own reality, watching porn multiple times.

Um, And then I started trying to stop, but I wasn't trying to stop that much, you know, I'd just kind of invest like 10 a month into this app to try and stop. I wasn't going to therapy or actually really committing to it or taking it very seriously. Kind of saw it as a bit of a self improvement challenge with the no fap streaks, etc.

And then, you know, that relationship ended, she broke up with me, she finally had enough of me because I was like, binging, watching porn, and honestly was like a zombie around her, just so disinterested, didn't even want to ask her about like, how her holiday had been, how her week had been, walking around just completely gormless, um, and thank God she broke up with me, you know, I would actually say that was the turning point in my life, and I thank her for that, because it was only at that point I went, okay, I've got a problem, I need to make a change here.

And it's like, if she had a broker with me sooner, that probably would have been the right choice for both of us. Uh, just because I needed to kind of face that reality of like, you've got a problem. You need to actually make some real change here. Second relationship, a few years later.  I was still in the porn addiction, but at that point I was trying, like, really hard to overcome it.

So, you know, actually investing a bit of money and time and research and really trying to do whatever I could really at that point to stop the behavior. And I think, you know, my relationship then was a lot more open around the addiction. In the first relationship, I didn't even tell my partner about the addiction at all.

In the second one, I was just very honest and like, look, I'm trying to stop this as best I can.  But every time I did engage, like I relapsed, I would be such a dick to my girlfriend as well. And I think that was because there was so much resistance and shame and self hatred and lack of confidence. And I think when you do relapse, when you're in the porn addiction, your confidence is just completely eroded.

And you may seem very arrogant and confident and like some, I don't know, alpha male or whatever. But actually inside you're like hurting like crazy and so you kind of project that pain onto your partner I think that's what I did in my second relationship Um that ended up coming to an end and then you know My third relationship is like the actual life beyond all of that Which is nice because you know I've not watched porn since i've been in this relationship and I don't intend to do so either And i've opened up and told my partner about my past but it really is just in the past now And I feel like this relationship feels like my first  Real relationship and looking back.

It's like those previous ones are all so muddled up in an addiction that  it's kind of  I don't know like it sounds so bad but that addiction was always just in the way of like a deeper level of connection and meaningfulness and As long as like I was putting on a facade to maintain those relationships  Which is really sad, but I think it just kind of aligns with your point Mandy of you know  It does impact women, uh, massively and,  and, and yeah, but anyway, I don't really know where I was going with all of that.

I just thought I'd share.  It was a good share. Thank you.  Yeah, no worries. So Mandy, do you want to tell us a bit more about your, your kind of journey over the last couple of years and what you've been up to and how you dealt with actually like overcoming some of, uh,  you know, kind of healing, uh, having gone through that? 

Yeah, that's a good question. So  something that was really important for me immediately after, the betrayal. So I was already working with a therapist while I was in a relationship and then when I found out he was getting the hotel room with the porn star, I booked a therapy session again and I told her and she's like, do you know I specialize in porn addiction?

And I was like, what? I had no idea. So that was amazing. So being able to work with a therapist who was anti porn was so helpful because I've heard so many horror stories of girls who come to me who go to a therapist and they're like, Oh, you know, that's just what guys do. Like, you know, he's not cheating in real life.

He's not like physically acting out as he, and they just. It just re traumatizes them and validates their pain. So for anyone listening, just having a therapist who specialized in that is extremely helpful. I do wish she was a therapist who specialized in betrayal trauma because I didn't know betrayal trauma even existed until,  I don't know, probably like six months after my healing journey.

I was just kind of trying to like,  this is what most girls do after. You discover about the porn use or porn addiction is we start like reading all the books, listening to all the podcasts, like trying to understand his brain and like, understand like, why can't he stop? What's wrong with me? Everything.

And so we really try to intellectualize it, but it doesn't really help us like deal in process with all the emotions and transform. And so something that was really helpful for me is was doing meditation, especially to help with the PTSD and the flashbacks and like.  Being mindful in the moment, so I could stop the PTSD flashbacks, but also, like, somatic breath work that was extremely helpful for me, especially with just doing like, holotropic breath work to release trauma from our body.

And I can't recommend that recommend those enough. Um, and then also just, it was.  What something that was really hard for me is I feel like I had to completely like my entire old life had to die and I just had to step into this new person like something that was really hard for me after the betrayal was like all of my friends were in relationships either engaged long term or married and so After the betrayal, like I just went from living with this person who I thought I was going to marry to now being like the one single friend.

And it was so hard. Like I got so mad every time I was around couples. And then in the back of my mind, I was like, well, is he doing that to her? And I just became so untrusting of men. Like, even if like I was. Like going on a walk and a man was on the sidewalk, I would intentionally go out of the way because I literally just did not feel safe around men.

It's like, I don't know what you're capable after seeing what he was doing and not that he ever like assaulted me or anything like that. It's just like, you just, it erodes your trust in men, which is really hard. So I had to do a lot of healing work around that, which was really tough, but very helpful to do that and therapy and just a lot of like, energetic and embodiment practices. 

But, yeah, I had to completely change my friend group. I eventually moved out of my city, not because, not, in the beginning just being in my city was extremely triggering, like every time I left the house I was terrified I'd run into him, or a dog, or his friends, and eventually I was like, fuck this place. 

But yeah, learning how to do nervous system regulation. I would actually say that that is like the number one thing that I can recommend for any girl. It's when we go through betrayal, trauma, our body just goes into this fight or flight or freeze mode. And it just in the survival mode. And it's so hard to get out of it.

It's the anxiety, the panic attacks, the flashback, the like obsessively thinking about every single interaction you've ever had in your relationship, every holiday, every birthday and being like, what's he? Was he cheating on me then? Was he watching porn then? Was he subscribing to OnlyFans and talking to girls then?

Like every single memory just becomes so tainted and the longer you get out of this,  the longer you start to learn how to heal and calm your nervous system, then your body can shift out of that survival mode. Then it also becomes scary because now you're looking back at the relationship and you're being able to be like, Oh, I remember that time he did that.

He was lying or he was gaslighting or he was manipulating and you see it with such a different perspective. So it was,  Like there's so much I could say about healing but it's such a holistic journey that you have to do and I feel so bad for a lot of women because we just get under this false assumption which I was too where I was like I'll just sit a podcast I'll just read books and I'll be fine and dandy and like my life will move on in a month or a few months from now but it took like Thankfully, in a weird way, I was laid off from my job like a month or two before my betrayal happened.

So I was unemployed and had my severance checks. I was literally just focused on healing like every single day and I didn't have the stress of work. I was just like, okay, like what can I do? Which at the time felt horrible because I was like, wow, I'm jobless, I'm homeless. I don't have my partner. I lost my dog.

Like I lost everything. But looking back, I'm like, that's what needed to happen for me to evolve into a new person.  I don't really know where I'm going with this. I feel like I'm just rambling. Um, but yeah, Like all the things you're saying. It's just yeah, it's just the central nervous system And yeah, of course if you have on that because that is real, you know, I would just get stuck in your body you know, and it's like but for me I was You know, I have that definitely and I still have work to do with that.

It's an ongoing thing, you know, but um thinking back on  All the lies and then and that obsessive thinking. That's where I found I could really use the methodology that we that we teach for people with addiction because it's the same kind of thing. It's like, I wrote myself a script that was basically I'm wanting to defend myself right now, because in my mind, you go back and you go, Oh, this, I know that I know this and that, you know, you want to, like, defend yourself, you know, and it, and it doesn't get you anywhere, you know, that obsessive thinking gets you nowhere, but probably more attention in your body and more thinking about, Oh, my God, more pissed off.

Oh, my God, that betrayal was just so sick and wrong. And, you know, all of it and what it did to me. And, and then I think that combination of, um,  Being able to, you know, retract that thinking because it's not going to get you anywhere and then be able to do the work that can actually calm. I think both of those things can calm the central nervous system because that obsessive thinking is going to keep you amped up and keep you in that defense mode, you know, so the combination of the two, you know, the somatic, you know, breath work and the resources that you can do.

Give people that are going to help with the body and be in your body and maybe release some of that trauma and then, but then stop that obsessive thinking at the same time because, you know, what are you defending yourself against? Somebody else's addiction, you know, it's, and you're just getting, you know, the, uh, the negative consequences of their addiction and being passed on to you, you know?

So, yeah. And I think I had another note, but,  oh, that was it. Um,  and like, All of this fallout, you know, like I said, Tom, we need to talk to the guys or have the guys listen to this to see, you know, what is happening to the women that you're getting involved with when you have a porn addiction. But  we can keep on doing all this band aiding of all the stuff that's going wrong and harming people, or we can get to the core of it.

We can start treating addiction. Correctly, and you know, really helping people to get out of it and and create a real understanding that all this all these trying not to think about it, fill your life with all this other stuff is not going to help your addiction. It's going to get you in deeper. So we got to get it at the core.

Because look at all the look at all the negative consequences. Look at what's the women are really suffering. You know, that's what my relationship there ended up being. Multiple addictions I didn't know were happening, you know, there was because he was lying about literally everything, you know, which is kind of compulsive in itself, but there was gaming, you know, I mean, the gaming was was intense.

I mean, it was like 24 7 and the multiple, you know, online reality gaming type stuff. And, and he always lied about porn. So I know he was probably doing that too, even though he was lying through his teeth about it. Yeah. There were things that I noticed in our sexual relationship that, um, made me think, huh, you know, something's really off here, you know, and like you were saying before, where you feel kind of repelled, you know, or repulsed, you know, it was like, Oh, you know, you don't want to have sex, but you don't know why.

Right. So, but then blame yourself. And, you know, it's, uh, and there was like, there were online relationships. There's all that internet, you know, engaging with. Webcams and all that crap, you know, so it's Yeah, we gotta get to the core of addiction. It really makes me, it really makes me think as well, like, I  can't really see how you could  cheat on somebody if you had the right way of thinking, or what I perceive as the right way of thinking, which is basically this thing of, you know, you have choices ultimately, you're never helpless, even if you have a desire to do something, that doesn't mean you have to act on that desire.

And I really do think  Being cheated on is probably one of the most painful things you can experience as a person. Like, you know, I talked about cheating earlier, but my junkie thinking back then, like my rationalization was, well, she's already cheated on me. Cause, cause that's what happened is essentially, you know, she'd already got with some guys.

When I wasn't expecting it, and I think a big thing about it as well for me, and I don't know, like, don't get me wrong, I've not been, I've not been through anywhere near the severity, so I can't really sit here and act like, like I can relate, but, you know, I was like 16 at the time when that happened, and it just felt like  I felt like such an idiot.

Like that is the truth. I felt like an idiot and ashamed because all my friends knew this girl and she'd done it in front of, like in front of everyone, like at a party, like kiss some other guy. Um, and again, as I say, it wasn't,  it wasn't the same extent.  But I still felt some really severe emotions. And then every time she went to a party for the next few years, I was always like super anxious.

And I  remember being on holiday in Cabos, like on a lads holiday when I was 18. And that was when I cheated on her. And my thought was like, Oh. I will do it first because she's going to do it soon anyway, which is such bullshit. But obviously back then I was kind of in all wrapped up in addiction and compulsion.

And so like nowadays I just be like, what am I doing with this girl? Like I just leave right away, but I just didn't have that thought pattern back then. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to put it out there. Like cheating really, really hurts people. Like there's such an obvious thing to say, but when you're in an addiction, I feel like you're so much more susceptible to cheating on somebody.

Because,  you end up getting wrapped up with, you know, junky thoughts, and these excuses, and lies, and justifications to do things which are incredibly harmful, when you can get out of addiction, and you're thinking clearly. You're not gonna, you're not gonna consider cheating. Like, you would just end your relationship with the person.

Like, you wouldn't do that. But, um. Yeah, because the motivation for cheating would be different.  You know, if you're thinking about, if you're not in an addiction. You're thinking about cheating, you might rationally look at your relationship and maybe it's a relationship that you're, you're not fulfilled it, it's not the right relationship for you.

And then you can go, oh, well I'm thinking of cheating. Well, maybe I'll end this relationship because it's not the relationship for me, and then move on. But when, when you bring porn addiction into the, into the mix.  You know, that's a whole different thing. You're going to find any reason to do anything,  anything sexual, you know, because there's, there's a fine line between porn addiction and sex addiction.

I mean, that's one kind of bleeds into another and.  You know, it's, uh,  that's why I think that is so important that the work we do is we teach people to deal with addiction in general, being or compulsion in general, being any, any behavior, whether you want to call it porn addiction or sex addiction, you're going to hookers or porn stars in the hotel or whatever, you know, so they know how to deal with any behavior.

That they want to do and they want to stop doing because it's causing them harm You know, we teach them how to deal with that wanting, you know, but  People live like you did tom, you know in that dilemma for years and years and years and years and years You want to do it and you want to stop so you keep denying one or the other Rather than acknowledging the fact you want both  and so you stop trying to deny that wanting and we teach them how to deal with the wanting because  Just because they want to do it doesn't mean they don't want to also stop doing it.

Then they realize, you know, I mean, you bring another person into the mix. And then that just increases the shame and the, you know, and the guilt and everything else. It just makes it so much worse, you know, because you now you're hurting this person. You don't know how to stop this addiction. What a vicious cycle, you know?

Yeah, so that's exactly it, Mary. That's why I was trying to articulate really that  when you understand the constant conflict of you want to do something and you also simultaneously  want to stop doing that thing, you can actually make a choice from a rational standpoint. When you're in addiction it kind of feels like when you want something you'll just do what you can to get that thing and you can't really acknowledge that two things are true simultaneously and you have all these helpless thoughts which can get in the way.

It's not to excuse that behavior, it's just if you've not been taught about addiction. It's a lot harder to make rational choices for yourself. Now, Mandy, I wonder if you wanted to share, like, how many people is this impacting them? Cause I know you've already shared some stats, but I'm guessing you're talking to a lot of women.

So have you heard quite a lot of stories similar to your, to your own story as well with all of this?  Yes, and one thing I want to add before jumping to that question, I do want to go back to the point you were saying about how you just feel stupid after cheating, because that is one of the biggest things I hear from women is we just feel blindsided, we feel stupid, we feel like we can't trust our judge of character, and we're like, wait, and going into this too, like, you have to keep in mind, like, most girls don't have like a distaste for men.

Like most girls have been harmed by a man in a very bad way. And so we get into this relationship with a man who's like, who changes our mind about men. And he's like, I'm a good guy. You can trust me. I love you. Like I'll never cause you pain. And then the exact person who does that is the one who's actually causing you all this pain.

So you just feel so stupid. You're like, fuck, why did I trust you? Like, this is awful. And it all, it'd be the equivalent to.  If you were a guy and you just found out that your girlfriend or wife was doing OnlyFans and was messaging guys and was on live webcams and was doing everything that you're consuming, if your girlfriend or wife told you that, you'd look at her and be like, Wait, why did I trust you?

The level of rage and anger you would have, like, that's the same thing that women feel, because we want you, like, all to ourselves, too. Like, just how, like, guys don't want their girl going on OnlyFans and, like, showing off her body to other men. Like, we don't want you consuming other women like that. Like, we want it to be an intimate relationship with us.

And  I don't remember where I was going with that. I just put it out there. That is, that is such a Wild,  a wild perspective, which I completely agree with, like, but I've never heard it phrased like that, but it's 100 percent true. It's so true. Like it's so obvious and blatantly true, but I don't know why I've never heard it.

I OnlyFans, so it's no big deal.  Yeah, you beg why you consume this content. What's the big deal? I could you why can't I be the one doing this instead? It's yeah, and then you're just like wait I didn't think you were that type of person who would want to be doing that to begin with I didn't think you're the type of person to be watching that content or Consuming it to begin with and you've told me that you don't like doing that and yeah, it's just a mindfuck.

It completely warps your mind and you question like, do I even know who this person is? So, and then that becomes a self blame and feeling stupid and yeah, it's really hard to process. Yeah, definitely. I think I was going to ask you a bit about like how many other people have are experiencing this and I'm sure you're talking to lose.

I guess a better question may actually be just to ask like, What do you do if you're the man? Like, in this situation, you've got a porn addiction. Obviously, me and Mary are probably gonna say, listen to our podcast, learn about the addictive part of your mind, overcome your addiction. But, from your perspective, is there certain things that men can do to  I don't know, maybe, maybe make the woman feel better in this situation, other than stopping the behavior?

Or is it just like, you know, get to the root cause, stop the behavior? Which is my perspective on it, is yeah, just end the behavior and then the problem goes away. But is there anything else the guy can do?  Yes, I mean, absolutely end the behavior, like, knock that shit off immediately, it's very abusive to the woman to be hiding this, not telling her about it.

And  take what I say with a grain of salt from my perspective, being that my partner never told me. I didn't find out until after the fact that he was getting a hotel room with a porn star. Like I didn't, he didn't confess to anything until after I had caught everything. And then we cut off communication pretty quickly.

And I just. I left.  What, something that was so, so hard for me, which I've talked about a lot is I just thought it was my fault. I thought it was because my body wasn't good enough. I relapsed in an eating disorder after I found out I lost like 20 pounds in a month, mainly from like trauma responses, but also just being like, I must be like my body, something must be wrong with my body.

I'm just going to starve myself. Like it doesn't deserve food. And something I just wish my partner would have told me. I wish he would have told me like, I, that was something that I was so mad about because I. I was so head over heels in love with this person. I was like, I wish you would have told me. I probably would have stayed and be like, all right, let's find the resources.

Let me learn about addiction. Like what am I getting myself into? But that didn't happen. So that just felt like extremely disrespectful and felt like you don't. Give a fuck about me if you're not you'd rather just lie to me and pretend like this wasn't happening So  my recommendation would be to men like yes, absolutely 100 percent tell her immediately I cannot tell you the amount of women who come to me who Have been married for years and decades and find out like she will find out eventually like you cannot escape that and It's obviously as you know, it's going to get harder and harder to Hide it the longer you go through this addiction.

And I would just recommend like sitting her down. Oh, sorry. You could also work with a certified like CSAT therapist to have discovery and have disclosure. So you can actually work with a therapist to sit your partner down and talk about everything that's happening. I would recommend that being the first thing.

Absolutely. But if you don't have means for that. Sit her down and let her know and just I would communicate it in a way to be like this has nothing to do with you This started way before I met you. This isn't I don't think your body isn't enough. I don't think you're ugly I don't it has literally nothing to do.

This was just what happened way before you it's something I'm really struggling with It's something I really want to stop it's something I need help with and I would come to her with a game plan being like I made an appointment with this therapist or I'm going to go do this. I'm working with this coach.

I'm joining this program, like come to her with a game plan. So she knows you're serious. And like, don't make her be the one that tries to get you help. That's what I see so many times in relationship where the girl partner would be like, okay, like, here's all these therapists you go to hear these groups, these podcasts, these books, and then the guy doesn't do anything.

And. Then the girl's just like, okay, so you don't even want to overcome this, but understanding that most of your popular people who listen to people who are self aware and want to overcome it, tell her and just be so vulnerable and show your emotions. Like it's okay to cry. Don't feel like you have to be this like strong alpha man who has it all together.

Like the more vulnerable you can be towards her and just show her your pain and your hurt and that how much you love her and just like communicate that to her as much as possible. Like just be very soft and gentle, but also like give her the time to. Process she  like her when she hears this her entire world is going to change in a blink of an eye Like she needs time to process and don't  yeah, like she she might leave you and that's  You can't, like, force her to stay and that's something you're just going to have to be okay with in my perspective, but just give her time to process.

She's going to be grieving a lot, like, she is going to have so many questions. Just be as open and honest with her about everything. And my number, number, number one, biggest recommendation, do not lie about anything. No matter how small of a lie it is, every lie, even if it was just like, Where were you today and you were 15 minutes late because you were watching porn or something and you lie about that and she finds out like that is every time you lie is her taking one step closer to leaving you like that is going to destroy her no matter how small the lies just be completely honest with her like and again just be vulnerable let her know your pain and let her know how you want to overcome this like. 

It's,  yeah, don't, do not hide it.  You know,  I sound like a damn broken record, and I'm really sorry, but I'm like the advocate  for addicts that are not getting proper treatment, you know, and I just, and, oh, man, you don't, don't think at all that I, like, Uh, dismiss the suffering  that women are going through dealing with this because Ben there, you know There was there was cheating  and I don't know if it was porn related that went on throughout my relationship And then I stayed with him Before he commits suicide all that and it was a whole I mean there there's no hell like it, you know but um  we think of like  Type of person.

I heard heard you say that a couple times where we go. Okay. Are you this type of person is am I going to find the person that's not this type of person that's really going to be this good person, whatever, um, whenever someone with an addiction morally judges themselves, that's keeps them in a little bit more, you know, because.

With, with addiction, we need to not morally judge anybody because we're all susceptible, you know, we're all susceptible to addiction. It's just the way it is. And especially now, you know, with our porn guys. I think of these young boys, you know that all they can do, you know, 11 years old All they're gonna do is think about their dick.

Come on. That's like biological natural, you know, that's it They're like what the fuck is this all about, you know, and then that then they got their phones, right? So then they're getting into the porn and they're just like innocent boys, you know um,  but the other thing is  You know our guys They're  all of them.

They express, you know, the fear they're so afraid because they've been through so much bullshit advice online. They're so afraid to try again because they think they're going to fail again. And the thing is, is they're right. They are going to fail again. If someone's telling them to go work out at the gym or go, you know, take a, you know, painting class or whatever the fuck else they're telling people to distract themselves from addiction with.

Not going to work trying not to think about it is not going to work. But my point being  is these guys are so afraid, you know, they're literally afraid we have to be like, it's okay. You know, just take the first steps in this class and we'll work you through it, you know, and then they, they see how it can be really different and they can actually get free of the addiction, but.

They're, they're terrified. They're terrified of failing again because they're stuck in this thing and they, and if it makes you feel any better, they know how much they're hurting you and, and they also, you know, are just.  They don't, they don't have any hope. They don't have any hope. They're so stuck in this addiction, you know, and  yeah, that's just me advocating for people stuck in addiction with complete and total bullshit treatment out there.

All this treatment. Everyone that's focusing on these people are depressed or they're anxious or they have stress and all this crap. They're depressed, anxious, and are stressed because they're stuck in an addiction when no one out there has given them a tool that they can actually get free of it. What a horrible place to be, you know, really, what a horrible place to be.

I think, just to add to that, from like, the guy's perspective,  Having been like, through a porn addiction, I think, Maybe it's due to, you know, the culture that we grew up in, And you know, obviously it's a very like, popular term, but, Kind of like, toxic masculinity. But as a guy, I  don't know, this may not be true for everyone, but, Sometimes, you can feel like, you're not doing good enough in life, If you are, Being vulnerable and that's obviously a complete like misconception.

That's not true. But sometimes you can feel like You're letting people down and you want to shy away from that. You don't want to look bad. Like, you're really scared of looking bad in front of the people you love, like your partner.  And so you can try and escape those feelings and avoid it. And pretend like there's not really that much of a problem.

I think it's a lot easier to pretend you don't have much of a problem with porn. We get loads of guys who are not watching porn that often. Maybe like once every few months. But when they do, they get out of control. And they do things which don't align with their sexual tastes.  Maybe they're cheating as well.

Um, but they get completely out of control because they've not been taught how to deal with compulsive desire. And I just think from my experience, you know,  addiction is underestimated. I think that's the main thing to get across here. Is that when you're in that addiction, especially with, with porn, I suppose, it's like nothing else can really compete with porn. 

And so your partner may honestly be the most beautiful woman in the world. I mean, I had erectile dysfunction when I was like 16. And I would honestly say.  Like my partner when I was 16, no one, no one was better than her. Like I was not attracted to anyone in the world any more than her. Like she was the most attractive person in the world to me when I was 16.

Right. Literally in love with her head over heels, like would do whatever. Um,  And yet porn would result in me having erectile dysfunction because it's a supernormal stimuli at the end of the day. I mean, how can one woman compete with these different camera angles and a million different women and the dopamine that's released from that?

So again, I think that plays a part. Um But yeah, I just see it as like an addiction, you know, like, like heroin, you know, it's something that people are getting hooked to it, like, imagine giving 11 or 12 year old boys heroin and just feeding them heroin, but then the symptoms of that heroin is that it also causes all this pain, distress, and like some really intense, um, side effects and trauma for your, your partner as well, because it then gets all mixed up with sexuality and the interpretations around it.

So, yeah, the problem's a mess, but, uh, you know, we're here to help. Hopefully, hopefully we can help people understand addiction a little bit better and actually face the reality of it, because it is very, very real. Brain addiction, you know, feeds into it so much, too. Internet, you know, we can't live without the internet.

I mean, that's just the way we function in, you know, so many areas of normal living. And so, and then the algorithms and everything that just keep messing with people, you know, so that's another level of teaching people, you know, not to feel helpless and to be able to be reasonable about things that are potentially compulsive, you know, it's, it's.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's a tough one, but  it's not, it can be done. That's, that's the beauty of it is it can be done and the, and the benefits are, are priceless. So, and  again, I really want to encourage the guys to listen to this and hear Mandy's perspective, you know, and just see,  you know, how. 

There's just another, another cost to it, harming women, making them feel like they're, they're not good enough, you know, and then to be able to get beyond the porn addiction to be able to, you know, have, uh, an intimate relationship, which, you know, women,  you know, yeah, we want sex, but we want that intimacy and, Um, And addictions, they're just people in addictions, they lie because they feel bad about their addiction and a lot because, you know, like I said, these guys are afraid they're afraid there's no solution.

So they want to lie about it. They want to lie to themselves about it. And with dishonesty and lying, you're not going to have intimacy. Intimacy is just going right out the door, you know, addiction and an intimate relationship. They're not conducive.  So, yeah, that's all I had about that. Yeah, definitely Monday. 

I made one other note.  My wife versus how I know I beat this one to death to us beat it to death a little more.  So then there's the what kind, what kind of a person am I? What's wrong with me? All that stuff, right? Go to therapy, find out what what's wrong with me. Well, you're a person that's susceptible to addiction.

So for me now, it's how am I going to get past this? How am I going to get out of this addiction? Because there's not really a lot of why to figure out. You know,  why? Because, well, for guys with porn addiction, because you were a young guy obsessed with, you know, what's happening in, you know, in your dick. 

And there you go. And now you're, there's your phone and now you're, the minute you click on something, you know, whatever, and now you're going to get more and more and more.  What, what hope do you have of like not getting, not getting an addiction with that? You know, there's, there's your why. But that's not going to help you at this point, digging into that even more and more and more. 

It's going to be, how do I get out of it?  Because yeah, it's, there's so much harm. There's so much fallout, you know, that's. Yeah. Yeah. I would definitely say it's not men's fault for getting addicted to porn. I think you're basically a victim of the society you live in. And most guys, as I say, they're like 11 or 12 when they get addicted, but then obviously it is your responsibility to get out of it.

And  at least from my perspective, you gotta be doing, you gotta be like willing to do whatever it takes to get out of it because it is going to be the number one biggest problem in your life. It a hundred percent was for me. And I think getting out of it. has been the thing that's changed my life more than anything else by a dramatic amount.

I can't even explain how much of a difference it's made getting out of this addiction. So, uh, hopefully we can help more people do that as well. Mandy, do you want to weigh in with anything before we wrap up?  Um, yeah, I, I definitely agree with you on how it's not your fault for having an addiction at all, especially accessing this at such a young age.

No one was there to educate you on the harm. Society also didn't know how addictive it was. However, for when men are in relationships and they're choosing to cheat and choosing to hide this addiction from their partner, I do just want to emphasize how emotionally and psychologically abusive that is.

And I think one of my issues with the porn addiction Industry, I guess is,  is kind of like, oh, well, like he had an addiction, he couldn't help it. And so it's  like, people kind of get that mindset, but then that's overriding like what he's putting the girl through because of that. And.  It's hard because you're also not supposed to shame people with addiction because then that keeps them in the cycle and like it's, I understand how both these like different worlds collide, but one of the big reasons I wanted to speak up like girls like, you know, like, no, it's not okay.

And like, raise awareness about how it is emotionally abusive and psychologically abusive, hiding very important information from your partner. Like you're hiding it from them because you probably feel that they wouldn't want to be with you. Like, that's very controlling. And it's, yeah.  It's entitled to go into a relationship knowing you have this and just think, oh, oh, it's okay.

And I understand that your audience, they're, they're, they have self-awareness. They're not doing that. And I just wanna make clear, I'm not trying to like shame you or blame you or anything, but I just wanna really bring home the fact, like, if you haven't told your girlfriend or wife about this, please, please, please tell her.

Because the longer you wait, the longer.  of a chance that she's going to develop PTSD and just the longer it's, it's so detrimental and I'm trying, I really don't want to shame you but I do just really want,  like, use your self awareness and make a difference and help her and let her know what's going on.

Yeah, I really really want to get across as well that although when you're in the addiction due to junky thinking and how the addictive part of mind works you may not feel like you have a choice and often people feel completely helpless in it because of the way their brains work. Basically being programmed but because of that, you know, that doesn't mean that you don't have a choice when it comes to Opening up and sharing what's going on with you with your partner, you know, that is completely separate to the addiction You may feel helpless in the addiction but you always have a choice and the right choice is a hundred percent to tell your partner about what's going on because It's unfair on them if you don't do that.

And I think the way you said it earlier about, you know, just owning up, being vulnerable, acknowledging it's a problem and then trying to be strategic about it and have a plan to go forward. .  Yeah, I'd definitely be a huge advocate for sharing this. The other very quick point I want to make as well is that, as I said earlier, it wasn't until that partner broke up with me that I actually acknowledged and faced the reality of my addiction a bit more head on.

So, I think the more you can be honest and, like, face this, the better. And part of that may be opening up and sharing it with your parter, partner, because then you're actually making the reality of your choices and, like, the consequences of those choices.  Rather than trying to hide away and act like this isn't a problem when it really is a problem for you and your partner.

So yeah, huge, uh, huge advocate for sharing it. Mary, go ahead. Yes, please. Um, so  this normalizing of addiction and, and Mandy, you said something like, oh, it's addiction. They can't help it. Right. This, this stuff just really pisses me off that they're, they're called addiction to disease. Right.  Diseases that implies that that is out of your control.

You don't have a choice. You get cancer. You can go, Oh, well, I'm going to choose to have cancer. You know, it's like, it's like,  that's kind of our societal view is like you can, it's a disease. So it's out of your control, which, you know, for me, calling it an addiction is, is because it can be real and we can treat it as such.

But that doesn't mean it's out of your control. It means you got to find the right help. Right? Right.  But the other thing was  we,  I would say probably 50 50 with our guys are in a relationship or not in a relationship. And the guys that are not in a relationship, we, I mean, I strongly advise them, don't get in a relationship, deal with your addiction, and then, this is a separate thing, and then when you get past this, and when you are beyond this porn addiction, and you are really clear,  Then think about maybe dating and maybe getting in a relationship because you don't want to drag some poor woman into this crap, you know,  deal with this first, right?

And then you're, maybe you'll have success in a relationship because if you get in a relationship when you still have this addiction.  You're just going to be trying to work stuff out on her and you're going to be harming this woman, you know, so we advise them don't get in until you're feeling really super clear, and we do that from a position of choice and being really empowered, you know, choosing to abstain from relationships until they get really super clear. 

And then we also have 50 percent are guys that are in and a lot of their wives and girlfriends know, but sometimes the wives will give them like bogus advice, you know, like, oh, you know, because they have this idea that everybody does it. It's normal. And somehow they, they'll validate the behavior because the thing is that.

You know, it's, they don't know what else to do. People just are trying to be happy, be happy in their intimate relationships. And this, this addiction is just getting in the way addiction of all kinds, you know, get in the way of relationships. So. Yeah, that was actually one of the main reasons I ended up choosing to break up with my second girlfriend.

So, as I say, the first one, she broke up with me, I was deep in a porn addiction, the second girlfriend, I was still in a porn addiction, but I shared it with her. Now, when I shared it with that girlfriend, She obviously was trying her very best to support and help me and, you know, I respect her for that because her intentions were great and she was an amazing person, but  what she was really doing is actually downplaying, minimizing, and basically using what we call junkie thinking to rationalize my own behaviors, things like, well, everyone does it, you know, it's not too bad, you know, don't worry about it. 

Things like that. She didn't actually have any problem at all with me watching porn, and so because of that,  in a way, you know, when I opened up and I shared how much pain I was in after relapsing, And she was kind of there trying to make it all okay, saying, you know, this isn't too bad. If anything, it just strengthens, like, the voice of the addicted part of my mind.

It really wasn't helpful. I would have benefited a hell of a lot more if she had of, you know, not, not being okay with it. Maybe had some compassion and not, um, like, judged me or shamed me for it. Don't get me wrong. But validating it was very unhelpful. And so I had to step myself out of that relationship entirely, because I knew I had to prioritize the addiction first, because it was Unfair on her, it was unfair on me, and I needed to do a lot of work on myself before I could enter a fresh relationship in the future if I'm like a rational place without it being all mixed up with the sex and everything else, so uh, Yeah, just to kind of reiterate your point there, Mary, um, I don't know, Mandy, do you have like any thoughts on that?

Like, do you ever have women that you're talking with asking you like, what do you do when your partner is looking at porn and maybe they have opened up to them about it?  Yeah. I mean, my recommendation is always to work with like professional help, like work with a counselor. I think both. You should work with someone who specializes in addiction, but you should also do your own separate healing.

Um, but I'm, I'm actually really in Like, surprise that you've had people in relationships who are just like, Oh, yeah, you know, like, that's okay, like, and kind of like, validating what you were doing, because I've never heard a woman on my end do that. If anything, I've heard women just being like, wait, you're doing what?

Like, no, I thought this was like a monogamous relationship. I thought it was just you and me. Um, so yeah, I was really surprised to hear that,  but I'm guessing maybe they've just make sense. Yeah, go ahead. I was gonna say, it makes sense though, just cause like, porn is like,  it's so normalized in society. And I also think,  actually, going back to it, um, when I was, the first year of my relationship, I knew he watched porn, but it didn't really bother me.

And I like more so tried to be like the chill, like cool girlfriend, like the pick me to be like, Oh yeah, like that doesn't bother me. It's fine. Whatever. It's like, I knew he watched it. And then it was a year into the relationship when I like started having all the issues about our intimacy, we weren't having sex.

And like, I was like, wait, you're watching porn, but you're not having sex with me. So that's when it really started to impact me. And that's when I started to put my foot down, but I had like, start going to therapy to even speak to, like, to find the confidence to speak to a therapist, to let a therapist know that I didn't like porn, who then worked with me for months to try to find.

The confidence to tell my boyfriend that I didn't like him watching it. So I do think a lot of women kind of like in the beginning, you like want to be like the cool, chill girlfriend who like doesn't care about that type of stuff, but then it actually starts to hurt you down the road. And I think that's when a lot of women start to pivot and be like, Oh wait, like this  horn is more than I thought it was.

Like I. I know myself and other girls I've talked to, like, we've been like, oh, when he said he watched porn, I thought it was just like, I don't know, maybe like once a week, he watched like one video is very like vanilla stuff, but then you see the content of what they're watching and how often they're watching it and the live webcams, the sex chats, the OnlyFans, the like, you see all of it and you're like, whoa, this is like a whole world I didn't know about.

So,  Yeah, I don't know where I was going with that tangent, but like I was saying, don't get into the relationship because they can get in initially. And now they think, okay, well, look at Mandy. She's gorgeous. She's hot. And now it's all good for a minute, but they still have this addiction. Right? And then  With all addictions that you build tolerance.

So basically that's where you get the fan only fans and you get the extreme content and whatever it is. It's not that you're not enough. Nothing is enough because addictions are insatiable. And that's why, and a lot of guys are like, Oh my God, I watched this extreme stuff. What's wrong with me? I gotta go to therapy or whatever.

You know, when it's like, no, all addictions, that's why people are going around 600 pounds. Because every addiction builds a tolerance. You want more and more and more.  So it's, it's so not about you, but they're trying. Oh, good. I'll get with this really cute girl and everything's going to be okay. No, it's not going to be okay.

Not until you deal with your addiction, you know, and the thing is, is. When it's all about all that stuff, you never get to develop that really, you know, um, rich, intimate  relationship that includes sex and that closeness of sex, you know, and everything that, you know, all the beauty of that is you don't get that because  With addiction, you're going to build a tolerance and, you know, they probably guys will try to get with you to think they can have overcome a porn addiction because, because of you, you know what I mean?

So maybe you should take it as a compliment. 

It's an interesting way to look at it, but  yeah, yeah. But you know, I'm always looking from the addiction perspective, you know, they're trying, you know, it's like, well, maybe if this, maybe she'll be enough. You know, look at her. So, I mean, yeah. I've definitely heard so many guys say in the past, like, Oh, you know, once I get a girlfriend, I'll be able to stop porn.

And it just doesn't work like that at all. Like, porn is like a drug. There's like, no woman can compete with porn. It's just a different experience altogether. It's completely different. And so. I think viewing it from that lens can help. And also you said about, you know, at first, maybe not the first year, you might think, oh yeah, you're just looking at like vanilla porn, it's not too bad.

I think the interesting thing with porn, as you say, because of the tolerance cycle and how it works is,  like, straight away that's like a red flag. Like, it's only ever going to get worse. Unless the person's actively working on changing their neural pathways correctly.  That addiction is just going to progress and progress and progress due to the tolerance cycle.

And then it does end up at maybe OnlyFans or Prostitutes or whatever else. So, it's an interesting way of looking at it because I've never really seen it in my mind like that. But yeah, if someone's looking at porn, it's only really going to get worse unless they're choosing to like change those neural pathways very proactively.

Because it either progresses or you change it. It's like it's not a neutral thing. It either gets worse. Um, it's only going to get better if you're being very proactive in changing the way you think, which changes the way you feel, which changes the way you act. So unless you're like listening to us or, or maybe other stuff like that, um, you know, it's only going to get worse basically.

Yeah.  Yeah. Yeah. Right. Anyway. So we've been talking a little while. Do either of you, Mary or Mandy have anything else you would like to really share or should we wrap it up here? Yeah. I just feel like I just.  You know, talk about addiction as a, you know, requiring, you know, such in depth treatment that we do and whatever, but  I don't want people to think that there's not hope, you know, because there's definitely hope on how to, how to overcome this and. 

And it's just one of the main things is just to stop normalizing it and stop validating that normalizing of addiction and that, you know, somehow you're going to just go and fulfill your life and do all these things and try not to think about it. That's that's just not going to help people. You know, we've got to get to the core of it, get to the core of that addictive thinking and people can really feel totally free of addiction on so many levels with everything. 

We're in just such a wave of compulsion, compulsion, compulsion, compulsion, you know, and, and like you were just saying a minute ago, it's like you're either going to deal with it, and it's going to get better, or you're not going to deal with it, and it's going to get worse. So, and it's, and, and there's such a trajectory of, Compulsion is just getting worse and worse and so much harm being done, you know, so  absolutely.

And just a very quick point as well for me is that when I talk about it getting better, the skill you're wanting to learn is understanding the addicted part of your mind and understanding how to directly deal with urges. For like nine years, I got better at avoiding it and running from it and focusing on the self improvement.

And so I went on these longer streaks, which gave me this artificial illusion, this belief that I have, you know, I was doing better with it, because I could maybe go like three months without it. That's not getting better, you know, because I hadn't dealt with the actual root, like the main problem, which is compulsive desire, the inability to deal with.

Um, and so you want to think through that wanting, that's how you actually make this better. And so just having that paradigm shift is going to be very useful to our listeners as well. Mandy, over to you, anything to add? And also, do you want to share where people can find you as well?  Yes. Um, one thing I want to touch on more about when you're talking about, like, what should men do if they're in a relationship and they need to tell their partner?

Um,  I can't emphasize this enough, but working with a therapist where you can do a proper disclosure is really important. It's likely, it's highly likely that this is going to traumatize the girl when she finds out, so doing it in a professional setting could be,  I would definitely recommend going that route more than just you sitting down and telling her on a random day.

Um, But that being said, in terms of where people can find me, um, I have, well, my Instagram and TikTok is at WTF do I do now coaching, but I think the TikTok ban is happening in America in a few days, which is  so over this country. Um, but,  um, I also have a support group. for girls. It's free. I definitely recommend like if you're in a relationship for your girl to check it out.

It can something that's really hard about going through this betrayal trauma is you feel very isolated. You feel very alone because not many girls talk about it and something I struggled with and I know other girls struggle with is when it happens. You're like, wow, I must be the only girl. This is happening to like Girls don't talk about this really with one another, similar to how guys don't really talk about porn addiction with one another.

Like there's shame, there's embarrassment, there's a stigma towards it. Um, so just having her like know that there's resources available to help her and that she's not alone. My support group is free. It's just a really nice place for girls to feel validated. They can talk. We have weekly calls on Wednesdays and it's open to anyone from around the world, obviously.

Um, But yeah, I would just recommend that being a starting point. And then we can introduce her to more resources too. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much. I didn't know about that. So that's really good because, you know, for our clients, a lot of them about, yeah, as Mary says about 50 percent of in relationships.

So maybe we can start pointing them your way as well, which I'm sure will help the partner. So that's great to hear. Thanks. I like the idea of the disclosure in a, in a professional setting, because otherwise it's probably.  Uh, because compulsion is so underestimated,  fighting in a relationship, that is so much going to turn into a fight.

If you don't have a mediator, they have a mediator there if they're going to disclose have that mediator there is really a great idea because otherwise it's probably going to be a full blown fight, which is just going to make everything worse. You know, I've done, I've done work with, um, fighting in, in relationships as well, that, that compulsion element to that.

So, and I feel, I see that would be really, really ripe for, uh, launching a fight, a big fight, unless you have a. In a professional setting have a mediator there. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it'd be equivalent to you just going up to her and be like, Hey, I've been having a fair whole relationship. Like that's very likely how she will take it depending on where you are with your addiction.

What information you tell her. Um, yeah, I also do one on one coaching with girls to like, whether they're in the relationship or left it and it's all focused on like navigating betrayal trauma, like helping her find herself, love herself, confidence herself, esteem. Cause those are really like the biggest areas that take an immediate hit after.

Okay. Discovering all that information, but yeah, please tell them. And again, like I hope anything I've said, I'm not trying to shame the person. I know that just makes the addict go back and the shame cycle is the addiction. And that's the farthest thing from true, but I'm still just trying to advocate for the woman's perspective inside of things too. 

And thank you for all the listeners who are on here who are self aware.  Yeah. And getting the help. Yeah.  I applaud anyone who gets help through this addiction because I know it could be so much easier to just avoid it and run away from it. But like actually doing the help and, or doing the work to heal is, I applaud anyone for doing that.

It's, it takes so much bravery and courage. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, me too. Absolutely. It really does because it's so much easier to just say like, everyone does it. All my mates are doing it. I'm going to pretend like this isn't a problem and just ignore those consequences. Yeah. Absolutely. But you'll know what those consequences are and I think it is scary and it feels really uncomfortable and it can be painful to acknowledge this as a real problem, but it's like through that discomfort and that acknowledgement of it that you can get to the other side.

If you're kind of ignoring it and pretending it, pretending like it's not that bad, then  chances are you're probably going to stay in it. Um, but yeah, Mary, was there any final things you wanted to just add in there? Just what you were saying there, just that, you know, staying in it, that just. Understand you have a basic dilemma.

You know, you want to do it and you want to stop. You're not going to get free denying one or the other. Just start with accepting that basic reality. And, um, Mandy, what you were saying about, you know, that courage, right? One of the things in.  In our in our videos is we teach that mental stance going into it.

And one of the one of those is courage versus fear. You know, it's like taking this on. It's brave, you know, taking it head on for sure, which is how we go about it. You know, there's no avoidance happening. Um, there's also really good results. So but yeah, it's a courageous thing. So if you do decide to try to deal with it, pat yourself on the back, the majority of the people taking addictions to their grave, you know, so yourself on the back.

It really is a brave thing to do. Yeah, exactly. And like just fair play to everyone listening as well, because the majority aren't going to listen. The majority aren't going to try and overcome this addiction. So thanks for being here listening. I really do hope this podcast has been useful to you. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story, Mandy.

I really do appreciate it. And thanks to you as well, Mary, as always for being here.  Nice to meet you. It's been lovely. Thank you both. I'm going to listen to some more of your podcasts.  Amazing. Yeah. Let me know if you have any questions or feedback.  Yeah. Really great to meet you.  Awesome. Well, that's it from us.

Take care and we'll see you in the next episode. Bye bye.