The Truth About Leadership They Never Taught You | Judy Micale

Judy Micale has built a life and career around one core principle: compassion is power. 

From her early experiences working across social service, education, and corporate leadership, Judy saw a recurring gap—leaders weren’t trained to lead with heart. In this episode, she reveals the truths most leadership courses won’t teach you. Through her decades of experience and coaching, Judy uncovers how to build businesses centred around people, and why that matters more now than ever.

This episode dives deep into the personal moments that shaped Judy’s mission—from recognising burnout before it breaks you, to turning the smallest moments (like a penny on a needle) into life-changing lessons. She also shares her transition from the corporate grind to launching her own business rooted in coaching, mindfulness, and authentic connection.

Listeners will explore practical insights around communication, brand-building beyond social media, and the impact of compassion in leadership. Judy discusses the cost of neglecting human-centred leadership—and the ripple effect when we get it right. You’ll leave with actionable ideas to become a more present, self-aware, and trusted leader, regardless of your role or industry.

Ready to rethink everything you thought you knew about leadership? Tune in to hear why Judy believes the future of leadership is deeply human, and why your brand, team, and business will thrive when you lead with empathy.

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Transcript

Paul: 0:29

Too many leaders focus on strategy and forget the human side of business. Judy Micale is going to explain to today how compassion and storytelling can make you a better leader and why most businesses get it wrong. Welcome to MarketPulse Pro Pioneers. Judy,

Judy: 0:45

Thank you.

Paul: 0:45

thank you very much for coming along and being a guest today. I'll give a bit of your bio in a moment for the viewers out there, but appreciate you taking the time to join us. Judy is an executive leadership coach corporate trainer and speaker with over 14 years experience coaching Fortune 100 executives across industries like tech, technology, sales, energy. And as the founder of Judy Micale, LLC, she specializes in guiding leaders through intense change, helping them foster resilience, communication, and compassion with their teams. Her approach is rooted in the belief that when communication and compassion converge true transformation happens. Judy's also a certified compassionate fatigue educator and Canfield success principles trainer, bringing a unique blend of strategy, psychology, storytelling to leadership and workplace dynamics. I have to say, Judy, I didn't even know that there was a, such a qualification as being a certified compassion fatigue educator. And I think it's, that's an amazing title and accolade to be able to add to your cv. Something that really does align with my own personal, my energies, I guess, and my beliefs. So, but before we get into that side of things, you spent 14 years coaching executives. What came before that, Judy? well that's where the compassion

Judy: 2:01

piece comes into play. Before that, I've had many chapters in my life. My very first chapter, I actually designed evidence-based practices to work with youth all the way up to the age of 21. And then I worked with adults as well in the behavioral health arena for many years and had many hats. In that arena. So each one built upon the other. I'm a firm believer in the doors open and close for a reason as you go through life. And one of the last trainings and certifications that I went through was around compassion, because I was working with providers. In the behavioral health arena a lot, and I was also working with leaders in that arena, and I was noticing a lot of exhaustion. not quite burnout, but they were exhausted, so I really wanted to know more. And I'm that geek that dives into neuroscience and all of those good things. And that's where that came from. It's not quite burnout how I define the difference between the two. And a lot of people said, you know, compassion fatigue is just a symptom and a sign. But how I usually define it is by answering a simple question, do you still love your job? If it's yes or yes, but you're in that. Borderline of hitting burnout. But if you say no, like done, then you've hit burnout. And so, you know, usually when I would ask that question, most of my people were at the yes or the yes, but so how do we then build in self-care? What is it that we need to do around time management and setting boundaries and all of those beautiful things in reality, when I've only had, I think twice. In the entire time that I've done this, and I've done training around this for oh, close to 20 years now, only been two times that somebody has said, no, I don't love it anymore, and they were already out the door. They were leaving, they were done, and you could see it in their face. So what I tried to do is work with people before they hit that wall.

Paul: 4:10

What do you think kind of led, what triggered you to be curious about why people do the things they do? Because I find that the. Usually a moment that, that people go, oh, that was weird. Why did they just do that? Or, I wanna know more about, I'm curious as to why you did that. What's your curiosity stem from Judy?

Judy: 4:27

From the time I was a little girl, I would watch people. I wasn't the child that ran around into a store for shopping, I wasn't that child who ran around crazy and everything. I would find a chair and I would watch people and just see how they were reacting or the conversations they were having and theexpressions on their face. I can't remember a time in my life where I wasn't an observer in some way, shape, or form. So I was always curious about. Why people acted or looked, or said things the way they said things, but I never really questioned it. I just, it was just a part of who I was. I. It's, I think it's inborn my grandmother was a nurse. My mom has been a nurse. Then she went in and did management in a department store, so she was out there all the time, intermingling with people. My father owned a bar, restaurant, hotel, so I was always exposed to people. So I just think it was just ingrained in me from the moment I was born.

Paul: 5:27

It is. Well, it's interesting that you say that though, right? Because my background is retail. And I've got a lot of friends who are in the travel and tourism and leisure industries, and I find that we intersect on so many things, and a lot of it stems back to that, that principle of customer service. I guess from our side of things like that response that I just got wasn't what I expected. Why? How can I make that happen again? Or how can I avoid that happening again? What was it that we did? I did the situation, did the environment did or whatever. And yeah I, I. Come to things from a similar point of view. I'm always curious as to why we do some crazy things as humans, and I'm fascinated by what leads to that happening. So I, I love that you've kind of drawn that back to when you were a child. When you were younger then, did you always envisage that you would work in somewhere shape or form in the light? I mean, I, as a child, I'm, I've no doubt that you didn't want to sit there and go, well, I wanna be an executive coach. But did you kind of always know that you'd work with people to, I. Understand them better. Has that been a goal for you since young?

Judy: 6:26

Originally started In nursing as well. I was following in the footsteps and, but even in high school, psychology classes, I, I was in that arena, didn't realize that was the door I was going to go down eventually and really, you know, explore that even deeper. But that's where I got my undergraduate degree was in counseling and then my. My master's was in more around education and special education and how do we, you know, identify and work with individuals in different ways. So from the time, again, from I would say high school on, I always knew I was gonna be of service. was just ingrained in me in some way, shape, or form. When you look at all of the even within my own family. a unique way. Everybody was of service in some way, shape, or form my father's business. He then went in and became a postal worker, but he was still of service to people. So it was an interesting to watch how my family's arena was around that piece. It was, how can we help others? I. Whatever light we were in, whether it was, you know, with my mom, she would joke and tease people in the department stores and just get people to follow her and do those types of things. With my grandmother, she was a head nurse, so she took care of all of the nurses and you know, let's make sure that you're taking care of yourself just as much as you're taking care of others. That was just ingrained again. And so I think it's a beautiful place to be, to know that your life is to be of service. So when I went into coaching, it just unfolded that way. I, you know, doors again opened and closed for a reason, and I was enrolled in and took co, I had two coaches myself. Way before coaching was popular, I was working with coaches and I loved what was happening within myself. Of how I got away from that blaming and pointing fingers and realizing my head was hitting the wall because it was time for me to move on, but I wasn't recognizing those symbol SI symptoms and signals very well. And so that's where I was like, oh, what did you do to become coach? How did you get certification in it? And that's began that path. The minute I went down that path, the other door closed because this is where you're supposed to be going now. And even in my coaching career where I started as a coach and where I am today is no way, shape, or form the same I. It is funny though I think that so many people that I speak to who are, who find a passion and an energy in what they do. Walked a path previously that made them a unique fit for what they now do, for example. Right. And part of me wonders, right? So having worked in the corporate world myself I never saw things like neurodiversity covered from a leadership capability, right? It was never even mentioned in 15 years. And I thought we were quite a forward thinking, seriously. Leadership forecast business. And now coming out of it I wonder how much do you feel like your experiences with behavioral and special needs helped you identify traits in leaders that made you able to reach them when others perhaps couldn't of, maybe even they couldn't reach themselves. You think that's the case? I that the individuals that I work with find me in different ways. of the individuals I work with, there's common themes no matter where you go. and it's time management, it's setting boundaries, delegation. It's the myth around I have to control and so that's where i find Micromanagement. Yeah. The neuroscience comes into play because it's a pattern that we have within our brain that skips back. So I don't know if you're old enough to remember, but when I was younger, my sister had an album record collection like you wouldn't believe, and she would listen to music all the time. I remember specifically one day she was extremely upset because the record would only go so far and then it would skip back to the beginning, and she was so frustrated with that and she was seven years older than me, so she was just like ready to throw this record across the room. My saw what was happening and he came over and he simply put a penny on the needle. To help it get through that groove so that it continued to play. So when I think of neuroscience and I think of coaching, that penny on the needle. For individuals, sometimes I just help them see that we don't have to go back here. We can actually continue to move forward on play the rest of the song out and that's my role, is to just be that penny on the needle. I love that analogy. I love it when people have found. A story that means something to them that really does help convey their value to other people. I think that's a beautiful story and I thank you very much for sharing that with us.'cause I'm sure there are people out there, you know, a lot of my audience are also coaches of some sort. And I'm sure that we're all kind of searching for that simple way to describe what we do. It's not easy. So then moving, so I guess. What was the turning point when you moved from being an employee in business to starting your own business? What made you kind of leave the corporate world and go out on your own? Again, doors open and close for a reason. I was literally taking the classes what it was to be a coach and certification in coaching and all of those beautiful things and what are the ethics and the components behind it and all of that. And I'm a big. Component of correct and confidentiality and all of those pieces. So as I was doing that, my mother became ill and she had open heart surgery, melanoma, and pneumonia, all within three weeks. I was working. I, you know, and then this happened. And so I literally just took time off from work and I worked at a beautiful place that they granted that permission. And I just went and I took care of my mom during that timeframe. But that also gave me a lot of time of reflection and journaling and doing, you know, where do I wanna go next? And where I was at, there was a place where it was a funding stream that ran out. So I was literally laid off. Right after about three months after all of that had happened and I was like, oh, okay. I guess it's time to start doing the coaching piece now and still take care of my mom. And I joke and say, I inherited two old people and a dog, my mom and my stepdad and their dog, they all moved in with me simultaneous. Like, and so I just was like, oh, this is the perfect time for me to start this coaching piece. And that was, you know, when Zoom wasn't popular and people didn't understand what Zoom was. I was actually doing Zoom and trying to educate people on how to, we could actually see each other. We don't have to be on the phone anymore. Oh. And so I was going through all of that. So that was the journey. It, we just all unfolded in those lights and so it was a great experience. It was one that I would never trade again. I would always go back and do it all over because it really helped me become who I am. Now when I work with leaders and they get caught up in that, oh my gosh, how do I take care of these individuals? Priority number one is your own self care. I had a beautiful mindfulness mentor in my life at the time. And yeah I still work with him and one of the things that he said was, you have to have your own well overflowing in order to be able to care for others. So analogy I go back to is, here's your fuel tank. This is full, right? Where are you at on that fuel tank? And we start going down, if we're driving on fumes. what is it you need to do, start doing to build in for your own self care so that you can care not just for your team or your family, but you need to care for yourself as well. And that's one of my biggest messages when I'm working with individuals. There are too many people who try and spread themselves too thin, especially in leadership. You're trying to be everything to everyone. You are shielding your people from things falling from above. You are shielding yourself from things coming up. From the ground you are caught in the middle and quite often leader, like leadership is one, like most people don't appreciate it, but leadership's one of the toughest things that you can do in long term. And it's both incredibly rewarding and incredibly tiring and trying at times at the same time. A lot of your focus is around the importance of communication and compassion in leadership, right? So is that teaching them things that they don't know or just kind of unlocking, probably giving them permission to do the things that they suspect but don't really, haven't tried. Coaching is asking the questions and asking them where they wanna go. more about letting them discover that they have the answers within them, and sometimes it's just asking them, have you ever had a similar situation and what did you do? And learning, oh yeah, wait a minute, if I do some reflection. I've had a similar situation. Let me take that tool out, dust it off, sand it off, reshape it a little bit so that I can reuse it in this way of my time, it's around difficult conversations because they have to give them feedback. So I always ask the question, how did you learn yourself? You learn by making mistakes. you by sometimes epic fails. And part of a leader is having the compassion but going down the rabbit hole of empathy and sympathy too far, and adding an action step of that's an interesting problem. What would you like to do about it? And that helps. Them realize, wait a minute. Yeah. I do have to let my people fail every once in a while, as long as it's not gonna destroy the company. Let them make those mistakes because then they're gonna remember them and learn and grow from it. We've all had to have mistakes in our lives in order to be where we are now. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. A client of mine put it beautifully. He said every morning took his daughter out to school and he'd checked the weather forecast'cause we live in England, right? So he'd check the weather forecast and see whether rain was forecast or not. And if it was forecast for rain, he'd tick the umbrella for his daughter, and. Eventually she got old enough that he thought she was ready to figure things out for herself, and he trained her to look at the weather forecast and he'd start letting her go out on her own accord with or without the umbrella at her own risk. And she'd get wet if she got it wrong. She hadn't checked. And it taught her a lesson. But kind of, there's a difference between that.

Paul: 17:59

And you wouldn't let your child step out in front of a bus. So there are lessons that you can. As a leader, you can let your employees, your direct reports, your colleagues take, and you know that the risks limited and all is good. But there are also risks that we need to protect them from and educate them from.

Judy: 18:16

And it's understanding that balance between what might okay with the mistakes being and what might, what should we maybe not let them make those mistakes and walk them through it together. So I love that kind of. Analogy led discussions and previous experiences. And it's clear like storytelling's really important to you as a person as well. Right. I imagine that, and that's, and I can tell that's come from your family as well, because I can imagine you must have some amazing stories with the industries that you've described. I know my son gets much as he might roll his eyes when I tell them, my son gets a fair share of stories too. Like, what was it like? Growing up in an environment where storytelling was so important do you feel like you've kind of took a lot of that forward? I never really gave that much thought. It's just a part of me. And it was just a part of our family, the, like, it was mandated. We sat down together at a fam as a family at six o'clock every single night, and we would share at least one good thing that happened to us. So even before, you know, the science of gratitude was out there and all those studies that were out there. My family was doing it, and we didn't even realize that we were doing it. And as I went into those arenas and I was like, oh, you mean that everybody doesn't do that? What do you mean that's so unusual? We always Yeah. and we always had Yeah. the dinner table. I mean, there were, so, there were serious moments of course, in our lives, but it, that moment was always a. We're gonna talk about something fun. We're gonna talk about something good. We're not gonna reflect on drama or chaos or any of that. That was for another time. Dinner time was storytelling and you're not gonna believe what happened to me today. And we would have literally 30 minutes of just sitting there eating and talking, and then everybody would get up and do their own thing and go back into whatever it was they needed to do. So, oddly enough, I just always felt it was. What everybody was supposed to do. That leads nicely into a conversation around personal brand because when I say a personal brand to a lot of people, the role, the rise and assume I'm talking about social media, because for a lot of the time that is exactly. What I'm talking about. But personal brand goes way beyond that, especially for executive leaders within a business because it's how people talk about you when you are not there, right? It's not just your impact on social media, it's how the world perceives you and treats you and what's your advice. And at a very high level, I appreciate, we can't, we, we've only got kind of 10 minutes or so left, but what's your advice to executive leaders around their own personal brand within the workspace? Leadership in our past world was around industrial thinking, so that was where everybody was at, and that was the old. that are still out there and there's nothing wrong with that. It got the job done, it got where we were. Today's world, it is more about compassionate leadership. And compassionate leadership is simply empathy plus action. So when you're working with individuals as a leader, it's more about. into and coaching, using coaching skills with them and using mentoring skills with them and helping them and empowering them. It's not walking in and being that old micromanager who told you what to do, how to do it, and when to do it by, because that's, that doesn't apply in today's world in any way, shape or form. Yeah. what industry you're in, you have to have that compassionate piece. That's why when I talk to people and I say, my tagline is communication plus compassion. equals for today's world and workforce. are the components that I work with a lot around individuals and leaders is what is it? When you think about compassion, why do you roll your eyes all of a sudden? What does that mean for you? Oh, let's redefine and look what is really compassion? It's an act of kindness. It's a simple way of saying good job. I actually did a leadership training probably about six, seven years ago now within an industry of and only two women were in the room. And I asked the question, when was the last time you said thank you for something? And I had one of those older individuals and he was like, oh, they should know they're doing a good job. And I simply said. Why is that? Are they psychic? Have you asked them what they need from you for recognition, appreciation, or what motivates them as an individual?'cause you can't motivate them. That has to come internally from them. Once I asked him that question, I was like, when was this? Like, seriously, when was the last time you said thank you to anybody? He came back two weeks later in the next class in, training that we were doing. I wasn't working with him as a coach, it was just as a trainer. And he said, you know, I said thank you to somebody, and I, they almost fell over. So we looked at it and I was like, yeah, that's it. That's the key. That's the one question I usually ask my leaders too, is have you had that conversation about what people need from you for recognition and appreciation? Because everybody's different. Everybody's unique when it comes to that, and there's two different pieces to recognition and there's two different pieces to re appreciation and recognition is simply that. It could be a little post-it note that says, thank you, I appreciate you, or it could be going out and having lunch with people. I used to joke and tell people, don't give me an award. I just found a drawer full of'em, and I don't know what to do with them. They're not on my walls, obviously. They're not out there. That's not who I am as an individual. boy, when my director that I worked with at the time, or even the CEO of the company came in and said, wow, you've got a lot on your plate. Let's work together to get this off your plate. If you had me for life, I would've stayed there for as long as I possibly could work with them. That was my need for appreciation and recognition. You see how hard I'm working. other it's, you know, it's let's go have lunch and have a conversation. You really care about them. You wanna have a talk, you wanna convers, you know, find out what's going on in their life. that's what I ask individuals is, when was the last time you asked your people how do you want communication? Do you want texts? Do you want emails? What is it that works best for you? Some people still like the phone, oddly enough, so that's one, two. what is it it they needp from you for recognition and appreciation that helps motivate them then internally you'll have individuals that work with you. Being transparent doesn't mean that you have to tell'em all the ins and outs. It simply means human let's work together. Do you find that when you've worked with a leader and they've start to transform the way that they work with their employees and within their business? That, that then reflects on the outside as well. So obviously I look at everything from a marketing perspective and from an outside in perspective. Do you find that's then obvious that there's been a change in philosophy of change, in think, and a strategy and that people feel more appreciated or working together better? Definitely there's a ripple effect. That's how I look at it. We're throwing the stone into the water. And when you look at it, there's an immediate surge, but as you watch, it ripples out further and further. So there is that ripple effect. And actually, that was my word about three years ago. I pick a word every year me to reflect on. And that was my word three years ago. And it was interesting to watch the ripple effect. coaching individuals then they're working with individuals, what happens within their teams. It's a great thing to see happen you're working with a leader of a team and then you actually work with their team as well. There's that even bigger ripple effect that you have. One of the best examples I can give you is I was working with a gentleman and. He was a manager his company. He was also a personal trainer and he was also a dad. And that's how he came to me. He was very segmented and I always tell people, I deal with you as a whole person. I've never met a piece of a pie. There's not a segment to you, you are a whole person. So when we work together. was Yep. with a piece at his work, not his personal training side, and he was like, I'm just really struggling with this. And I said, let me stop and ask you. If you were working somebody with somebody as a personal trainer, what would you do in that situation? Well, I did da. Oh, and you literally saw the dots getting connected and he was like. I could do that with this individual. I said, 100%, let's try it. So that was his beautiful part. He literally saw what he did even at home, you know, and then the dots even got even further Project management isn't just at work. Project management. Think about it, when you were a child, probably had a chore list in some way, shape, or form. That was the beginning of project management for you. A great way of talking about things. I quite often, I get people come to me. For my day job. And they're conflicted because they perhaps run two or three businesses in various ways, like various levels of involvement. Plus, like you say, they've got their own personal personality. You know, I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm a wife, whatever. And they're struggling to, how do I represent all of these brands through one social media account? And my honest answer at the back to them is always just be yourself. Like. Be the expert that you are and trust that people will find who you are. They'll align with you. They'll match your energy levels and theater themselves will become curious and find the parts of your businesses that they need to find as a result of you being your central self. Not trying to be founder of this company one day and then founder of that company the next, and then dad on the weekends. We're just ourselves. That's all any of us can ever be, so I love that. From your perspective matches with the way that you are working with your clients from the inside as well. Because like I said, personal brand extends way beyond social media. It's not a social media concept or a construct. It is. We all have a personal brand, whether we like it or not and how we are perceived when we're not in the room, but me, by my son, some dear by clients, but other dear work, colleagues, partners, whoever, we need to have a, we need to spend some time. Identifying what that personal brand want needs to be for us and work towards making it the thing that it needs to be in our head because we're probably not where we want to be, right. For most of us. Here's that something you see a lot of. just keep in the back of your own mind is you take you with you wherever you go. So when you're looking at that and you put it in that way, being your authentic self, no matter what situation you're in, people are gonna recognize when you're being authentic and when you're not. So I always just say to myself as I'm going out into the world, I'm taking me with me wherever I go. What a great sentiment to end the show on. Thank you very much for your time. To Judy, to do, Judy, I've really enjoyed the conversation. And I hope you have too people watching along at home or listening along, if you're on audio. Thank you very much for giving your time today to join us for today's episode. I'm sure you've also enjoyed it. Judy, if people wanna reach out, you know, perhaps you've hit some notes with some people out there who might wanna find out a bit more about your work and how they could maybe work with you. What's the best way for them to reach you? just my name, judy mccauley.com, or they can connect with me on LinkedIn. It's a beautiful place to connect on. I'll make sure both those links are in the show notes as well. So nobody has to work hard to find any either of those. So thank you very much, Judy. Appreciate your time and I hope you have a lovely week. Bye-bye.