Stop Guessing What Your Customers Want | Babs Crane

How do your customers actually make decisions? This week’s guest, Babs Crane, says the answer isn’t in your product—it’s in behavioural science.

In this episode of MarketPulse: Pros & Pioneers, Babs shares how she went from a high-performing sales career to launching a behavioural design consultancy that helps businesses apply cognitive psychology to win customers the right way. With insights drawn from nudge theory, consumer ethics, and decision science, she breaks down why most businesses still sell based on assumptions—and how to stop guessing what your audience really wants.

We explore why women in sales are under-celebrated, how to build ethical user journeys, and the real psychology behind unsubscribing, buyer reactance, and attention spans. Babs offers a sharp, often surprising breakdown of how small changes in presentation, prompts, and messaging can radically alter customer behaviour.

This episode is essential for founders, marketers, and consultants who want to use science—not superstition—to drive results.

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Transcript

Paul 0:00

Want your customers to actually care. This episode explores how behavioural design helps you cut through the noise and why. Understanding what makes people tick is your most underrated business tool. Today's guest is Babs Crane a friend of mine and a behavioural designer and consumer psychologist who uses applied psychology to make businesses more human. She's the behavioural designer and psychologist at designed a consultancy that blends design, psychology, and strategy to optimize everything from websites and campaigns to employee engagement and customer experience. Armed with a Master's in consumer psychology and a background in both commercial design and business development, Babs now helps businesses turn human understanding into real results. Welcome to the show, Babs. I'll have to say I'm really excited for this episode. How are you?

Babs 0:54

I am good. Thank you. I'm also really excited. It's lovely to be talking to you.

Paul 1:00

It is, it's, but do you know what testament to how broad the scope of behavioural science is? This is now our third interview on a third separate show that I've run. In a completely different space. And it's still relevant. So if you are watching along thinking behavioural science is this, for me, it's fascinating. Yes, it is for you. It's absolutely for you. Whether you are in a tiny little business and you're a one person entrepreneur or you are running a much larger business, it doesn't matter. You need to understand behavioural science to be really effective at what you're doing. I wanna start back at the beginning perhaps.

Babs 1:37

Back in the earlier part of my career, I was actually in sales and I was in quite technical B2B sales as well, so. The fact that I'm now 20 years later doing applying psychology kind of feels like quite a jump. I think when I explain that to a lot of people. But actually ironically, it was that sales job that is, was like the catalyst that got me into what I do now. So back in the,

Paul 2:05

early days So why did you get into sales then? Why did you get into sales outta curiosity? Because that's not right. Let's call a spade a spade here, 20 years ago, not many women got into sales

Babs 2:17

No, especially not in the construction industry.

Paul 2:22

so why that?

Babs 2:23

that again, a very interesting point. So, I, so I started off like most teenagers do in retail the old Faithful yeah. And no, you've very much got your background in it as well. yeah, I was in retail and, you know, just kind of went along. This is obviously very early career stuff that I'm sure most people can relate. Got myself a, you know, a weekend job in, in a really big shopping center actually. So I was spoiled for choice of where I could work back in those days. I lived near Bluewater Shopping Center in, in Kent, so I had a job there. I. And I think I chose really well.'cause actually I, first of all, I worked in the Lego shop, which was like the best job you could ever

Paul 3:05

have Yes.

Babs 3:06

You had like, you were rota'd onto like the play table for an hour and, you know, got to build models and stuff. So that in itself, I think I peaked quite early, to be fair with the,

Paul 3:18

that's my end career ambition. You've described it perfectly. Yes. I.

Babs 3:21

whole heartedly recommend. Yeah. So I did that and then and then once I left there, I went into, musical instruments and I was selling musical instruments and that was then much more in the, like, I had sales targets, I was on commission. I was very much, it wasn't just like a shop assistant role, it was a full-time role. Ironically, it's how I met my now husband. So yeah, basically I was like. Demoing pianos and selling. I can't play a guitar at all, but I ironically sold a lot of them. And so I suddenly realized before then, I think like a lot of teenagers and I think a lot of teenage girls would go, oh no, I couldn't ever do sales. Like I didn't, I'm not a salesperson.'cause what's a stereotypical salesperson? It is kind of like a quite an extroverted man, I suppose. Like if, especially back in those days. So, yeah, I, that's how I started off. And then I moved and I went into you know, like into the B2B world basically. And I started off in Mitsubishi Electric which is, I'm sure most people have heard of Mitsubishi. Mitsubishi have got hundreds of companies. Um, and I was working in the construction industry at that point. So they, I was working in an entirely new sales team. And as you write rightly pointed out, I mean, sales as a, you know, as a profession was and probably still is, still you know, heavily male dominated. But in particular, like I was working in a very heavily male dominated industry and it is still heavily male dominated the construction industry. So actually it was really. It was really interesting when we started out we, there were a team of four of us in that team and it was an internal sales team and we were looking at looking after and trying to develop business. in accounts that, you know, companies that maybe hadn't really heard from Mitsubishi for a while. You know, the external sales team, understandably, were all out, you know, speaking to their long running relationships and there were like of customers in different areas all around the London region, which hadn't really heard from Mitsubishi. So we were kind of tasked with a completely cold sales area each, and we all had. target and off we went and we did everything we could to build relationships with these people.'cause actually, that's the thing that it came down to. It was building a relationship. But one of the thing that things that I was acutely aware of right from the outset is how much. Effort I felt I needed to put into kind of proving my competence. That was something that I really felt I had to do quite early on. and that's kind of a. Bigger issue I suppose, or issue might not be the right word, but that's definitely like a feature of often what happens especially if you are in a role where you are you've got quite a imbalance between you know, like men and women for example or other different characteristics. So if you kind of feel like you might be on the back foot slightly, you, some people go into that feeling like they have to kind of over. Um, prepare or, you know, have that you know, have to really over prove themselves. So I definitely went into it at that age, at the age of 21. with that in my mind, so I was revising all sorts of GCSE physics and trying to become the most valuable asset I could be to these people who hadn't heard from the company in a little while. And in the end, all four of us had quite different approaches in how we worked out. Particular patches that we had, but all of us became actually really successful. And we managed to build up sales areas from invoicing, nothing to like far surpassing the sales targets that we were set and working on, you know, good margins and all these things that were obviously really important to the businesses. However, one thing, and this is where the whole spark for understanding humans really. Really, ignited with me. We had quite a lot of training in that role in that business. Which used some personality profiling as part of it. And I was absolutely fascinated by it. And ironically, I'd already been reading, picking up books in bookshops about like body language and personality types and all that kind of stuff. Anyway, I was already kind of interested in it. Then I encountered it a lot in the workplace. And it helped, I could see how it really helped sales teams understand the each other and how we could maybe understand clients a bit better and communicate between different levels in the, you know, the structure in the business. So I was absolutely fascinated, but with like, it and then I was like, well, I wanna know the science behind it. And also I'm like, why? When I'm picking up these books off the shelves in wherever, how do I know the book that I'm picking up that's really interesting is actually the right thing to be reading. So in the end that's when I decided for a hobby and I always, it was very much for a hobby. I'm gonna make sure I pick up the right books and therefore I will pick up the textbooks of a degree. And I enrolled on a degree in psychology. And I did it in my spare time. I just kind of did it over five and a half years. And I learned all about the science behind those personality profiling frameworks that are used quite a lot in businesses and some definitely have stood the test of time better than others. But yeah, that whole thing that when I was doing that job and when I was talking to those people, and like I say like on a personal note, I felt like I was gonna probably have to prove myself even harder in that role. The thing that I really found was that just saying things in a slightly different way actually resulted in some pretty big differences in the outcomes of like, whether a a client would take my call, whether I would have an opportunity to quote on a project whether or not I could influence the sale in some way, shape, or form, basically. So that's when I realised There is some science behind this and it can be, it can have like some really big results.

Paul 9:33

I think for a lot of people we tend to lump behavioural science and behavioural design into behavioural stuff in my head. Right? Like it's behavioural stuff. So the uneducated, but it, but also I know enough about your world to know that there's a clear distinction between the behavioural science and behavioural design. So what's behavioural design then?

Babs 10:29

So behavioural design is basically, it's where you marry the world of behavioural science. And behavioural science is a catchall term that is kind of pulling together lots of different types of science that all helps to understand human behavior, right? So, and ultimately to help to. and steer human behavior in some way. So behavioural science is predominantly psychology, but there's lots of other influences that have come in from the world of economics, sociology, anthropology. So all of these social sciences ultimately are the thing that like make up behavioural science. And that's very much like under, like I say, understanding why people do what they do. behavioural design is the application of that. Via some kind of design deliverable. If I can sum it up in a very succinct way, that would be it. So it's about understanding how humans behave and what is likely to guide them in a certain way. the behavioural science. And then you have behavioural design, which then understands how. Almost like the psychology of design. So like how we pay attention to certain things how we remember things, how we process language, all these things like these kind of cognitive processes that are happening. influences on us, but like how we lay that out and how we present that visually. That's the behavioural design piece. So it's taking the behavioural science with an out like an intended outcome of some kind of behavior. And then designing your particular, deliverable,whatever it might be. So it could be webpage, it could be user interface of an entire platform, an entire system. It could be an email layout, it could be anything like that. So something kind of visual predominantly. And understanding how our brain process that processes that in visual information to give us the best chance of the behavioural science to land at the end of it.

Paul 12:31

And I think the beauty of. All of this is that, like I said at the beginning, right, it's easily just as applicable to a small single person business as it is to a large multinational, right? The principles are very similar, how you scale, it's very different, obviously, but the principles remain the same and the power is incredible, but it's. There's a power for good and bad, right? There's a certain amount of ethics and morals involved because it's also very easy to steer people down, what I call the dark side.

Babs 13:01

Yes, definitely. And this is a huge theme within like moving into that whole behavioural design piece and there's a, so. When you think about like humans and influence in human behavior and it feels like a really and understand be. So it feels like a bit of a, a sticky area to even talk about. But, and I remember when I. Told a friend of mine when I was I decided to do my master's degree in consumer psychology. Because I was looking for like an applied area in psychology that tallied up really nicely with kind of what I was doing in the world of design. and I'd already seen earlier in my studies working on client work that actually if I designed Magazine page ad, for example, I did a lot of those in like a particular year that I was doing, about cognitive psychology or my undergraduate degree. Because I was running the two things side by side, I could already start applying it into my work. And I was already seeing that actually if I was designing a page ad in a certain way. Certain ones were getting much more traction. were more memorable for the audiences'cause certain trade publications would give, you would even ask for it, but you'd get certain insights from it. You know, as part for the advertising team would run certain studies. So that was quite useful to even get that feedback straight away. So when I said I'm gonna go and do consumer psychology, one of my friends, I always remember she said. Does that mean that you're gonna give like, people therapy if they shop too much? Which I mean, I can't understand why you would land to that when you say consumer psychology, but I also had a Say, oh, that's really interesting. And oh, that's a little bit, you know, that's a bit of a, the dark arts. And that there has been a definitely was. Like some areas of psychology are definitely much more widely accepted than others, and in the UK consumer psychology hasn't really been widely accepted because psychology in the UK is a discipline, still sits kind of in that. Not exclusively, but a lot of it is in like the therapeutic space. you have You have educational psychologists who are working, you know, with children in schools who you know who needs the additional support of somebody who's highly trained in psychology. You have lots of different areas, but consumer is huge in America, but not so much in the uk. And I think there's always that worry that these knowing about, influences human behavior is a terrible thing. But ultimately anybody working in any business is trying to influence human behavior in some way. And the one thing that psychology I. If you've got an actual formal training in psychology, the one thing you are taught from day.is about ethics and it's about, you know, using this for good. what we've seen with the positive side of using applied behavioural science and behavioural design is that you can help people make. Decisions that they already wanna make for themselves. But you can, they're already motivated to do a particular thing, but it's like they just haven't done it. And actually knowing about psychology can make it a lot easier for them to make the right decision for them. And also a really big thing at the minute, and this is something that's been going on for a good few years now, which is talking about sludge processes in behavioural design. So you've got. Anybody that's encountered behavioural science in the last 10, 15 years probably might have heard the term nudging. And there was a really famous book called Nudge that was written by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein. And Thaler won the Nobel Prize for basically this whole theory of like nudge theory, By kind of just designing the context a little bit better. You could help people. Reach their desired outcome, goal, whatever it is, a little bit easier. So like you could nudge people to maybe eat slightly healthier in staff canteens by just making the fruit and vegetables a little bit more easy to get to and maybe make. The the chocolates and the crisps and stuff a little bit harder, but you don't take away free will free choice, but you just, most people say, actually, I'd sooner. I know it's better for me if I eat this and I know it's better for me if I make this decision, but because of the context they're in, they actually then don't end up making that decision and they maybe make the slightly decision for themselves. But obviously people have latched onto this and this is something that I do see, and like you say, it is really, you know, like it's an important thing to know about and it makes a big difference in, in business. Something I've definitely witnessed, especially in like maybe the last five years or so, more and more people are aware of like the kind of. Basics of behavioural science, which is brilliant. You know, like people are understanding that actually if you frame a message in a certain way, or if you put a particular button on a site, then maybe you might get more traction on that thing. And as you point out, some people have been, then they're using it for you know, like maybe not the best intentions. And so. I mean, you see this a lot as well. Just give an actual example of this. Like you see it so much in like unsubscribing from subscriptions. So when you go to unsubscribe from like any kind of, you know, Amazon Prime or whatever it is although I have a feeling Amazon Prime might have changed their flow, but that was definitely a bit of a culprit back in the day of like making it really hard to unsubscribe from the service. That's a

Paul 18:28

I think I'm right in saying that America's kind of America's outlawed this now, right? Like that's part of the new bill that they brought in is to make unsubscribe very simple.

Babs 18:37

Yeah

Paul 18:37

to the point where we've got apps being released that you pay a monthly fee for that help you unsubscribe because it's that hard to unsubscribe from things.

Babs 18:45

So one other thing as well. So. The sludge practices have definitely been highlighted and there's, as you say, it's a lot of stuff now coming in because people realize that actually if you are using this science and you are using it without the best intentions, then that can have obviously the outcome that people are potentially worse off. But thing I will say when it comes to like applying behavioural science that. There is this other thing, and this is a common well, it's something that's widely recognized when it comes to applying nudges. For example, if you are applying these small little changes in like the choice architecture of something in order to help people make a particular decision, we aren't like. We aren't sleep walking into our decisions a lot of the time. And there, this is something that if I can it's one of the areas of the nudging side of behavioural science.'cause behavioural science isn't just applying nudges to do things. It's like a whole plethora of, there's lots of other influences on human behavior other than just kind of like how things are laid out and where we are steered to. It kind of has that assumption that you know, like we kind of don't really think too much about our decisions. Or there's, it is only that influences our decisions. Like the choice architecture is like the thing that influences our decisions. And that's the one thing about learning about psychology that tells you that's absolutely that isn't the case. Like there we have other things that influence our decisions more more than that. And if people feel like they're being forced into a particular decision, and if people feel like they're being forced particular we have this thing called reactance. And that's where people will basically double down, do the opposite potentially, but they will. You really know about it if you feel like you're being forced into something. And from a. A company perspective and a brand perspective, it is like the most damaging thing you could do. Like if you co, if you're setting out with the intentions of forcing people down a certain route to give you certain revenue outcomes, whatever it is. They'll soon feel it and know it and they will react to it. And that's why it's understanding, it's all about understanding your customer base. And it's all about understanding how they and what really motivates them. And then building something around that to help make it easier for them because you can't actually really force people down a certain route. And if you do, it won't last for long basically. So.

Paul 21:16

And the irony is like for a lot of us we probably already employ a lot of the principles ourselves without even realizing what it is that we're doing or why we're doing it. We just know that it works. We've tried it, we've tested, we've iterated, and it works. What I love about what your approach is and the industry's approaches, it makes it scientific. It's about measuring the outcomes and testing A against B to see what is effective and what's not, rather than the standard entrepreneur's approach of, well I sent that email last week and I think it worked'cause I got a reply this week. So I'm gonna do more of that. And sometimes you're right and sometimes it's just the look of the draw. What, at what point though did you decide that you wanted to go off and like, work on your own, like outside of the corporate world?'cause like designed is. You've been going 10 years now. Right? So was that the finish of your degree coinciding with that?

Babs 22:06

Yeah. I mean, to be fair, it's something that happened really quite organically. Like it's not didn't go right, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur and I'm gonna set, I'm gonna set out and do this in the same way that I thought. I didn't think, oh yeah, I'm gonna go and be a salesperson back in the olden days. You know, like it's just, it's something that just kind of organically. naturally happened So I was doing the sales role and and loved it. I've still got, I've made friends for life in that place and I'm still like, you know, I've got I've got the best group of friends, um, from that. So like, just had the best time. But yeah, so I was really, because I was getting quite interested in, you know, like human behavior and. I was obviously start, I'd started this psychology degree by that point. I was getting quite interested in like the more the marketing side of things and the creative side of things rather than solely sales. I'd had a little bit of I was doing a bit of that in the role anyway, not so much the creative, but you know, like writing, marketing, comms and what have you, and. Whilst I was, in fact, one of the other things that made it easy for me to go and do this psychology degree in the first place was that my other half was setting up designed at the time as a web developer. So because he was quite busy building up that business, I thought, well, now's probably the time that I just make myself busy doing this psychology degree. You know, like, just do it now and get it done. No idea what I was gonna do with it. Just I say interested in human behavior. So yeah, it came to a point within his business, within design that actually, there was a need for me to step into the business on a creative role basically, and to do creative work. And as I said earlier on, excuse me, of the earlier parts of my undergraduate degree, like I, at the time, I was like, I'm interested in human behavior. And that was quite cool when I was doing my sales role and I could see how it works in that. I didn't for one minute think it would ever bridge into any kind of creative role. It just was like two completely separate streams of my life at that point. And then I got into learning about cognitive psychology. So that's all about how we think, how we learn, how we pay attention to stuff, how we remember things. And then I realised like I said, early on, the way things are laid out the way, like different colors of things, the way the shapes of things even can actually have quite a big impact on stuff. So I was already using it within client work. And and then I thought, blimey me, these two worlds massively collide. And of course they do. Like, why didn't I think this before? But, you know, then from that moment onwards, I just thought, well, you know, this is quite an important thing. And this is actually quite a valuable thing because like you say, behavioural science, we're all humans, so we all experience life, right? We all understand what it is like to be a human. And certain parts of, like certain parts of psychology, when you learn about people do the things they do, it makes complete sense. And you go, yeah, of course. Totally get that. So it's quite intuitive, some parts of it, but the best thing about behavioural science and psychology is actually learn the bits that make no sense, as in like you have a real like there are, you know, like, so it isn't just in intuition. There are parts that you like when you learn about actually what's going on under the, like under the surface, that then. Can have quite a big impact. And I think this is the part where the people, if you're not trained in it, can get wrong because you're not aware of the fact that actually like the, something is actually really counterintuitive. So I

Paul 25:33

That's what really got me excited about behavioural science in the first place was like for 15 years I've been involved in retail and policing. And I knew by experience that sometimes people were just doing bonkers things for no obvious reason. Like why would you do that? That doesn't make sense why you should be doing that. Like, like even just sales patterns or shopping patterns or whatever. And I'd be like, right. But this is the way my brain thinks about this, and logically it should be this, but I, the customers aren't doing that. They're doing this other thing. Why? And then I remember joining a sales demo call with the business where we'd met like MOJO CX or TMAC as it was. And I remember Sam Phin doing a demo of a really complex technical product, which was aimed at helping coach people. And he was like talking about the colors and why the colors were important to people and how they impacted on their behavior and their frame of mind and what they were gonna be doing and feeling and the buttons rounded because, you know, like sharp edges, it's cognitive up. And I remember sitting there watching him thinking, is he making all this up? Because if he's not, this is outrageous, why do I not know this? And I got off the call and I remember asking like, is did you make all that up just to impress the clients? He's like, no mate, it's behavioural design. I was like,

Babs 26:50

Yeah.

Paul 26:51

how do I find out more about this?'cause this is fascinating. Which led you and I to have a initial conversation around kind of marketing emails and all that interesting side of things. And I just think so many people probably know it's out there. know it could help them, but probably assume it's for bigger businesses. And the one thing I want to get across to everyone today, and I've said it a couple of times already, I'm gonna say it again, I'm sorry. This is really applicable no matter the size of your business, but be careful if you're dabbling in it. You really do need to speak to an expert. To get the best out of what you're trying to do with it. You can read all the books you want. The books are fascinating. I've got, you know, I've got all the books, I've got Tyler's book, I've got I've got Jazz groom's book. I've got, you know, Cialdini I've got all sorts of s. It's all there. I love them. But. I know that the u the application of it is beyond my capabilities because I'll do something wrong somewhere down the line. I will trigger an unintended side effect and I will ruin myself by doing it. Babs, I'm, thank you again for being a fantastic guest on the show. I really could, we could, I will have to have you back because I'd love to share with the audience, not just your story, but some more of the principles behind things.'cause I'm sure people have kind of, we've wet their appetite a little bit with some of the examples today, but there's some really cool use cases. And some of the rules and laws like. I mean, we know the things like fear of missing out. Everybody understands that to a degree, but there's more behind fear of missing out than people realise

Babs 28:25

Yeah. There's a

Paul 28:26

so

Babs 28:27

basically the fear of missing out. So,

Paul 28:30

There's so much to it. It's fascinating.

Babs 28:32

yeah. And that's the thing that's just, that I think has prompted it's become really popular in the last 10, 15 years is ultimately it can boil down to that one particular principle of the fear of missing out, huge motivator and driver of

Paul 28:45

behaviour Yeah,

Babs 28:46

So yeah, we could do an entire session just on that.

Paul 28:49

we Should we? I think we should. I think we should. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave the door open for you to come back, but if folks are listening along at home and think, do you know what, I'd love to find out a little bit more about how this might impact my business and how it might help me grow or do better on be more efficient. How can they reach your babs

Babs 29:06

Ah, well, I mean, I'm on LinkedIn. First and foremost, Babs Crane. think there's too many of me on there of people with my name on there, so hopefully you'll find me. Okay.

Paul 29:15

I doubt

Babs 29:16

it And if not I'm at babs@DZINE.com which is D-Z-I-N-E d.com. Or Babs@mindthehumans.com is a separate, dedicated. Consultancy as well, so you'll be able to reach me in one of those three places and I'll gladly chat to

Paul 29:34

anyone Or we'll have to have you on,

Babs 29:36

about it.

Paul 29:38

we'll have to have you back from that business and then we can talk about that as well.'cause. I need to actually, after we get off the call, after we get off the episode, I need to find out more about it.'cause it sounds incredible and I don't remember you mentioning it before. So I need to know, thank you very much for being a fabulous guest, Babs as ever. That's a hat trick for you, for me. So you're the only guest that's ever been on three times in any of my shows. So well done.

Babs 30:01

Oh thanks

Paul 30:03

in the post.

Babs 30:04

Thanks.

Paul 30:06

And thank you at home for coming along, watching, listening, however you're consuming the podcast as ever. Another fascinating guest next week. Thank you so much for your time, and please don't forget to subscribe. Take care. Bye-bye.