Why Most Leaders Hit Rock Bottom First | Kathy Archer

Ever felt like your leadership role was slowly crushing your spirit?
 In this episode of MarketPulse, we dive deep with Kathy Archer, a leadership coach who helps women in the non-profit sector lead with confidence and clarity after burnout.

Kathy’s journey is raw and honest. She shares the moment her values clashed with her career, how burnout forced her to rebuild her integrity, and what she learned about leading from within. Together, we explore how leadership isn’t about doing more – it’s about being more. From self-reflection and journaling to daily micro-moments that restore balance, Kathy’s insights challenge traditional leadership culture and offer a blueprint for sustainable success.

Whether you’re a seasoned executive or an emerging leader, this conversation reminds us that growth starts inside. Learn how to recognise the warning signs of burnout, create space for reflection, and rediscover the energy that drives authentic leadership.

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Transcript

Paul: 0:03

Ever felt like you're drowning in your leadership role? This episode is about finding your footing again and building a leadership style rooted in confidence, clarity, and purpose. Kathy Archer spent years as a nonprofit leader managing complex programs and supporting vulnerable families. Whilst secretly teaching on the brink of burnout, her transformation began when she realised leadership wasn't about doing more, but leading better. Today, she's a leadership development coach, helping women in non-profit roles lead with clarity, confidence, and strength. Through her books podcast and training library, Kathy's on a mission to empower overwhelmed leaders to reclaim their purpose and make a real impact without losing themselves in the process. Kathy, welcome to the show.

Kathy: 0:51

I am excited to be here.

Paul: 0:53

I apologise. It's been some time since we first spoke. It's took a bit of reorganisation of our lives to get you on here, but I'm so, pleased to have you here today. I'm excited to share what your story, it's gonna be fun. so I'm gonna, I'm gonna just dive straight in Kathy, and, jump right back. you. spent over a decade supporting families in managing programs, leading nonprofit teams. What point did you realise something wasn't quite right, that you needed to change something?

Kathy: 1:22

When I hit rock bottom, I had been doing well. I had been, it hit a low early in my career, and at that point in time I realised I needed to go back and get the training. Often we're moving into leadership positions without that training and support to do the role. So I went back to school, got my management degree. Did some work on myself to get to that point where I started to grow and develop my team. And we were really a succinct, strong team. We were doing some incredible things as a result, we got this large, big new contract that left me scrambling to keep up. and so instantly overnight. more responsibilities and more travel and more staff and bigger budget and all of this kind of stuff. And so I did what most of us do. I doubled down. I worked harder, I stayed later. I, in dove deeper and I kinda lost sense of what I was really doing along that way. And my staff Kept telling me like, you're not listening, you're not helping, you're not there for us. You keep pushing us to do more. And I'm like, come on, we got more to do. And so it culminated in this, big mess where, you know, first I'd got a performance where staff said, I lacked integrity. talk about, that one hurt.

Paul: 2:45

Yeah. And then the staff

Kathy: 2:45

filed grievance against me and so those two things left me, like I say, hitting rock bottom. I didn't know if I wanted to do the job anymore. I didn't know if I wanted to stay in the sector anymore. I, just, what was the point? I had tried so hard and this is what everybody gave me, And at the time, my boss had been my boss for quite a while, so he knew my strengths, he knew what I was capable of, and he didn't know what to do in this situation. I can't help you anymore, Kathy. I don't know what's going on. And so he was the one that introduced me to coaching. so it was then that I was like, oh, I need to work on myself. It's not just about the leadership and the, budgets and the meetings. It's about how am I showing up and that lack of integrity was in that I'm here for you, but I'm not, work life balance is important. but i was so out of balance and I was pushing my staff to be out of balance. So absolutely lack of integrity a real wake up call.

Paul: 3:44

That sounds, I know, incredibly painful, but absolutely candid. And I was gonna ask you originally what does burnout look like? But I think there's a better version of that question, which is knowing what you know now that you probably didn't know at the time. What did burnout actually look like?

Kathy: 4:04

Yeah. Yeah.

Paul: 4:05

Because I think we learn a lot in the post experience and when we, realised we've gone too far, and then it's easy to piece together the things that we wouldn't have known even at the time were signs.

Kathy: 4:17

Yes, when we talk about burnout, it's a physical mental exhaustion, right? That's not what's happening for leaders often. They show up together, right? Like they're able to do their job. They're, putting in 8, 10, 12 hour days. they're getting things done. And so to, to the outside observer. you're are on fire, right? You're doing stuff. It's the inner, I call it just that ickiness, you know you are not being true to yourself. You're not being true to your values, something's off. At one point my son was in a car accident, 16 years old, new to driving the year. not wearing a seatbelt, flips the car end over end and is thrown out the back window. miraculously he did not have a broken bone. Fine for the most part, I was eight hours away at a meeting. or at training actually. And I was, phone off at 8.30'cause we're going into training. So at 10 o'clock I opened my, turned my phone on. It's full of messages for my husband. and so I call him and he tells me what happens. He is he's okay, he just came out of X-ray, like he's in a lot of pain, but, stay. So my husband tells me to stay at training of course. I'm, learning and getting stuff done. Absolutely. I'm gonna stay. and so three days I finish up the training. On the third day I'm set to travel to the other side of the country to go to management meetings. I went instead of coming home.

Paul: 6:08

Wow.

Kathy: 6:08

So my husband, other son, took care of my accident. talk Mismatch of values. Family's incredibly important to me, right? And yet I, not once, but twice I put work over my family and so that mismatch of values was that sign to me, that icking, I. could feel the tension, and yet I just powered through, right? This is important. My husband's got it, everything's fine. And it's that mismatch of values that is that, warning sign that you're leading to burnout. And that was that personal example. But there was many work examples too, where I just kept the ick and just pushing through.

Paul: 6:50

wow. I can't imagine what, and, what, how did your husband. Was your husband still accepting of that kind of behaviour even after the fact?'cause I bet there's a lot of people out there who would tell their, spouse, their partner to, yeah. Yeah. You steer, but then secretly on the inside were like, yeah, you'll come home. You've gotta come home. but.

Kathy: 7:09

Yeah. He, to his credit, he's never done. We've had millions of conversations. My son has said, mom, it's fine. I was like, hi. I couldn't tell who was there or not there. we've had lots of conversations about it since. but I think, on the flip side, when I decided it was time leave that position and start out on my own in a business, my husband wanted me to stay and not because. he didn't believe in me or didn't think what I was saying I was wanted to do was important. But there's also an element of, oh, what's the word? Prestige. I was, I could have, kept moving up the ladder, making good money, having a good title, a good position. And so the role brought something to us as a family, as, oh, Kathy's leader. and so he. He and I kept looking at that, this is what you gotta do. You have the opportunity, like you keep climbing the ladder and, at some point I was like, this just doesn't align with me. It doesn't align with who I am. My values are constantly being squashed. Something's completely off right now. I could have stayed in the role and shifted things perhaps, but at some point I recognised that the sector I'm in is a really crisis driven, scarcity mindset, panic, all the time, sector. And if we're going to change that, it's probably gonna take more than just me Hey, I'm setting some boundaries. It's gonna take a lot of us saying those kinds of things. And so I knew that if I started working with leaders individually, that I would probably have a bigger ripple than just me pushing back alone.

Paul: 8:51

So you got to a point where you had a coach yourself. You brought a leadership coach in to work with you. What was that first session like?

Kathy: 9:01

it's lunchtime. My door is closed. I book it at lunch because I hope around, it's lunchtime, the door is closed, but of I. of course people are probably still in the office. So I'm hunched over my desk, whispering into the phone with tears running down my face. I'm telling the story. Nobody's cares about me, nobody's listening, nobody's helping. Everybody's out to get me. and for the first time, somebody just listened, right? They didn't try and fix it. They didn't tell me I was wrong. They didn't tell me what to do. They just listened and accepted the story and then they started asking me questions about my experience of what I was going through, right? and That experience for me. Somebody said it to me just yesterday in a coaching call. She said, you listen, that's it. Like somebody to listen to my story. and so for me that was the first part. The second part was some of the exercises he had me do, like identifying my values and I'd never. sure, maybe I'd circled a couple at one point, but I'd never sat down to really look at those values. And so when I looked at that value of family and how far off I was or wellbeing, it was so important to me. And yet I certainly wasn't doing that. Those were those wake up calls, not just for me, but. When I flipped it, I looked at what I was expecting of my staff. If I value those things, shouldn't I then be giving those to my staff? and so it was the ability for me to step back and see things from a different lens.

Paul: 11:11

Fascinating how many guests that we have on the com on the podcast that, that have a similar story. Not the same, but similar and similar experiences and that, that kind of crucible that we've all gone through to get where we are right now. And I, think back to, we had the Fantastic Sky Jarret on the show, a few weeks back And, she just leaned into the camera like this. She just leaned in. She went, but don't tell everyone there's another way. and I love that. I love that sticks with me so much because I could just see her doing it. I totally unexpected and I was like, wow. Because, we don't need to shout about it. Those of us who've been through that, you know what, and I went through very similar, I probably wouldn't have made the same choice, but neither was I as seniors, I think that, I think there's something in that, right? Like the more senior you become, the more privileged your position. The more pressure there is to put business first in front of the family and things like that. But, I remember being in retail and my staff ringing me up to say that they were ill and probably weren't ill. They were probably just really stressed out or here at their job and there's me on the phone going, but when will you be back? And I'm thinking to myself, is this the person I want to be? Is this who I am? Like this is horrible. I don't wanna ask that question. You go and look after yourself and come back when you can, but please send me someone, you can help me today. but, so I guess at this point then, you've gone through various different roles. you've found yourself working in the industry that you do. What's the common thread through everything that you've done to this point where you, got involved with your coach? What is it that kind of. Is that the guiding why, I guess that sits in the middle of all of the rules that you've held? Because that's where we all get to where we want to go, Right. That's the one thing.

Kathy: 13:10

Yeah. I know that if I grow myself be healthy, happy, competent, confident, everyone around me is, and I can do that for other people. The key to that is self-reflection. self-reflection is the key to everything. And if we're not. Doing that inner not naval gazing, but just who am I? What's important to me? What are my morals, VA values, ethics, what hills am I gonna die on? how do I wanna show up? What's the impact I wanna have? If we're not doing that work, we do become very self-centered and, just, focus on tick, tick. Gotta get the meetings done and, get through all of this. It's that inner growth that, allows us to be our best. When I look at the people I'm working with or potentially gonna work with it's that question of have you looked inside? And how often do you look inside? I was talking with somebody yesterday, and she was talking about, I, I make space'cause I'm always pushing my people to create space to be more intentional, right? I make space to get my calendar ready and plan my week and all this kind of stuff. And I, said, I get that. But do you make time to ask yourself, how do I wanna show up in this meeting? What's the impact I want to have? How do I want these people to walk out of this meeting feeling? Do you make space for that? Even like a minute before you go into that meeting? Because that's, always talking about character, right? That's the character, your reputation, that's what people think of you, not, the agenda items and you know how long the meeting was. But who showed up to run that That's the impact. And self-reflection is key to that.

Paul: 14:52

do you think that there was a point in time before you got involved in coaching that perhaps you were, i guess swapping that success for the things that. you really enjoyed doing? Like it kind of it, it ticked the box in terms of dopamine and fulfillment and, but actually you were kind of conning yourself, right?

Kathy: 15:11

yeah. there was, pre kind of leadership and then when I found myself again, I can, there was a period of time where one of my top strengths is learner. I love to read, my place is stacked with books all the time. I didn't read for years, like not a book. and the, or the learning I was doing was so focused on, we needed to learn at that moment. It wasn't filling my soul. I stopped doing crafts, like I loved to, to crochet and, paint and do that kind of stuff. Gardening. And yeah, there was that period where I just didn't have the energy or the focus or the time or the desire to do the things that. Made me light up. and, so yeah, the, hits I was getting was got that task done, got that meeting done, hired somebody, got the office set up right. and yeah, it just, it wasn't the same.

Paul: 16:09

I love that. I love that and I think there's a lot to learn for a lot of people from that. And it, it resonates so much because, we, were talking before the episode started on Monday. I was at the spa day for my wife's 40th birthday, and we were sat at the spa and it was the second part of the conversation that I started when my son was in the house the night before and he's 7 almost 8 And, we were talking about how I love reading Stephen King books. I've got all of the books, all of them. And I haven't read Stephen King, I haven't read anything. In years because the kids came first. Kids came first, then I was working and by the time I've done all of that, I'm tired. I just, wanna relax. I haven't got time to read. And actually, and I was I was putting it that I didn't want to not speak to my wife because I was reading a book. It feels rude, right? I, should be spending the time together watching the TV not speaking to each other.

Kathy: 17:02

Yeah.

Paul: 17:02

And on a kind of, and when I said that to my son, I there was a moment that when my, that was in my head, it was like, really? So you're gonna pretend to watch the TV when actually you're just gonna stare at your phone, but you're gonna not read your book because you wanna be able to talk to your wife, which you're not doing anywhere. And we were sat the spa and I went, I'm gonna start reading again. And she looked at me and she smiled and I was like, Yeah. I'm gonna start reading. not every night, but some nights I'm gonna have a book down there and I'm gonna start reading. Rather than watching the tv, you can have the TV on and you can watch it or you can play with your phone if that's what you wanna do. I'm gonna read because I haven't done it for ages and I actually really miss reading Stephen King and She was just like, I ex, I dunno what I expected. A kind of part of me thinks I would you like, she's not gonna be angry with that. but part of me half expected it. Yeah. Like, why haven't I been doing it before now? So that just, that, that conversation really brings that to life for me. So let's, go back to your journey then. So you've, gotten involved with a coach yourself. You're starting to realise all these things are not aligned with who you are. How do we get from there to the point where you realise that coaching is the thing that you want to align on and, become?

Kathy: 18:16

Yeah. Yeah. I think I knew the minute I had my first coaching call, it was like, oh my God, this is it. i think I've always had a. I use the word spiritual very lightly. Just that, that desire to figure people out and support that inner growth. And so when I got into coaching, I was like, oh, this isn't therapy. It's not some woo kind of thing. This has got some meat to it. And so I had actually asked my boss at that time, if I could take the training, and he's no, we can't afford it. And so then 2 years later, probably 2 years later, there was a bursary. And so I applied for the bursary. And so that's how I got the, money for the first bit of coach training that I did. From there, I, did the rest on my own. and at that point in time, I probably could have stayed in-house and coached, but it wasn't offered to me and I didn't ask for it. and probably that's. Best because going out on my own important. I knew when I went on my own that I wanted to coach, but think I'm also a teacher at heart, like I love to learn and I love to share, and so much of what I do is that combination of coaching teaching. and people at the time, said to me, oh, you could join this consulting agency and teach these courses, or we all need this kind of lessons. And I'm like, no, i wanna teach my own thing. and I, started with, that kind of process. The other piece to it was, why the nonprofit sector and why women? and, certainly, I heard more than once. A week, you can make more money coaching in big business. Like why are you sticking to the nonprofit sector or why are you narrowing women, right? there's more out there. but in my heart of hearts, I know, and this is what you were asking me earlier. That's what I'm meant to do as support women in the nonprofit world. I was there, I was challenged by it. It does not need to be that way. There is another way, and I'm going to give back to this. and, so the prestige of, whatever I could have done isn't as important as making this difference.

Paul: 20:32

It fills your cup. I can see it from, just, from the conversation. Yeah. And this is a conversation I have a lot with people when they talk about starting their own podcast as an example, right? people, realise there's a value in it. And they conjure up, an idea for a podcast, which is brilliant, but they forget to align it with what they, what makes them happy.

Kathy: 20:54

yeah,

Paul: 20:54

And the reason most podcasts don't get to episode 10 is because they burn out. half of it is because they don't have a process and all the rest of it. That's fine. Okay. We can, that, we know that can be taught, but your podcast being aligned with what gives you energy is what helps you get past the episode 10. And it's the same. It's the same story, right? Like you've got to be, if you are doing something that you seriously enjoy, then it doesn't feel like work. But that's also dangerous, right? Kathy?

Kathy: 21:24

Dangerous because yes, for us. so I have a podcast. It is not a regular podcast that I could probably benefit from the work you do a hundred percent. it's an episode a hundred and something. But I also blog and I've published 2 books. Thank you. and so at some point, we have to, and this is true, whether you are in a leadership position or a an entrepreneur, you have to narrow and focus, what is it that you wanna focus on and. writing for me has been a really big part of my journey. I love speaking and getting out there. gotta get help to do it. like it's not something you can do on your own. And so when I'm working with anyone. Again, we're starting with what are your values? and if your value is to have energy left at the end of the day for the rest of your life so you can spend time with your kids and read and take the dog for a walk and go to the gym and whatever else you wanna do, you can't do it all in your nine to five. and so that's that setting boundaries and being clear and, Yeah. Where's your, what's, what speaks to your heart? Do that. that's what gives you energy. I'm a Gallup certified strengths coach, and when we're looking at leading with your top strengths, they're energizing, they're engaging, right? they fill you up. If you're trying to do the work from, the bottom of the, list, it's draining. Like it just is.

Paul: 22:47

to come back to the word character, you used the word character before and I know that's a big part of your business and your way. You coach and I, I'd probably call that, personal brand, right? how people think of you when you are not in the room. it's extremely important. And when, but whenever we say personal branding, everybody rolls their eyes and think, you mean you've gotta get thousands of views on your latest LinkedIn post? it's what people think of you when you are not there, what, doing the right thing. And, but I wanted to ask, Values, ethics, morals. Why are they so overlooked in today's kind of leadership landscape? Why is it that they're not? What we promote people by?

Kathy: 23:25

Yeah. because we're a driven society that wants to get stuff done and achieve things, right? we've created, KPIs and goals and targets and all of this kind of stuff. the best leaders balance, task and relationship, we have to get stuff done. We have to meet those goals. We have to achieve the targets. We have to get the stuff done that the contract requires. But it's people doing that work, right? the people showing up every day that make that work happen, and, the best work happens in relationship. And I think because we've become this scarcity mindset, time poverty, crisis driven sector for, the sector that I'm in, and I know it's many sectors, it's not just the nonprofit sector. the push is to perform, to get done. And, we just keep trying to do that and we've lost sight of the, who's the, that's doing it. and the who that's doing it. Is, like you say, it's, what people think. So when I think of character, I think of the traits, integrity, honesty, forgiveness, whatever it is that you value in, how you show up. The, there's a really tricky part though, as a leader where. and there's truth to both sides. I don't care what people think of me. Who I am is who I am. You either like me for these traits, you like me for my style or you don't. Truth to that. and there's truth to, it's incredibly important to worry about what people think of you because your reputation matters. and, we sometimes talk about legacy. oh, when I die, what are people gonna say about me? like you just said. What are people saying at the water cooler about you? What are people saying in the chat while you're having a meeting? That's your reputation. That's your character. and you do need to worry about that. And the more authentic you are and lead in, in a strong way that aligns with who you are, people will see that and they'll judge you for, they might say. I don't always like the answers they give me, but I appreciate that they're consistently giving me answers in a, timely manner. I don't like that they're showing up this way, but I know what to expect because they're always that way. so I at least know that's integrity. Maybe you don't like that they're. I dunno if I could say this in your podcast. Maybe you don't like that they're an ass sometimes, but at if you know they're an ass, then at least you know what your working with thats integrity.

Paul: 25:54

we're all willing to pay a price for consistency of some sort. I think we, a lot of us strive for a certain amount of consistency and then the rest, rest we're willing to take a bit of a risk on. And I guess personality and leadership's No. different. I wonder then you, you talk also a lot about self-doubt, especially in the charity sector with regards to leaders. Why, do you believe that there's a confidence issue for charity sector leaders?

Kathy: 26:20

I do work outside of the charity sector, and it's for a lot of leaders. A, big part of it is we move from frontline into leadership without the training or support. When I talk about confidence, it starts with competence. If you don't know how to play a guitar, you're not gonna be confident playing a guitar until you learn and practice and fumble and learn and practice and do it again. you gotta have the courage to practice though. we move into leadership and somebody says, you need to have this many staff and you need to make sure that you do their performance reviews and you need to run these meetings. But nobody tells us. Okay, what do I do when a staff's not performing? How do I balance that? Or you and I were talking earlier, what do I do when people don't show up for shift and I need bodies in the seats, right?

Paul: 27:05

Yeah.

Kathy: 27:06

how do I navigate all of that, or my own emotions, or my own energy or, the, need to be on everybody all the time and, manage. there's a term called emotional labor. So there's, you're carrying a lot. Nobody tells us how to do all of that, so we move into leadership. I remember when I moved into leadership and my boss was interviewing me for this position. He said, what do you know about managing a budget? I'm like. I balanced my checkbook. back in the day we used to balance our checkbooks. That was it, right? I don't know. The first thing about budgeting, I don't know anything about Excel spreadsheets at that point in time. and so I had to take a course to figure out how to do spreadsheets, and so that's why we're full of that. Self-doubt is we move into this position because we've been good at what we've been doing, and suddenly we're like. I don't get it I don't know how to do this. And yet we don't wanna tell anybody.

Paul: 28:03

Yep.

Kathy: 28:03

stick our hand and say, I need help. We don't wanna admit we're, struggling or failing. And, even when we do, we're given tactical things, not that inner growth work. we're not having those conversations. I don't remember ever having a conversation about legacy or emotional control or any of that kind of stuff when I was leading, and that's what I needed to learn.

Paul: 28:24

Again. Yeah. It if I go back to supermarket world where I was We'd get. An area manager would come in, you'd be a new manager running the store, and the area manager would tell you exactly how to fix that store in their view

Kathy: 28:40

Yeah,

Paul: 28:40

and the inexperienced manager would go out and do exactly what the area manager told them to do, and the area manager would come back in 2 months and the store would be burning down. Everyone hated the store manager. The store manager hated themselves. I don't understand what's going wrong. You told me to do all these things. I've done all these things. I did this jobs list and it still didn't work. And it took me probably about 7 or 8 years of this experience over and over again to realise that you had to turn around to the area manager and go, I understand that you want results. that's fine. But if I do things your way, this is gonna burn to the ground. So I'm assuming you don't want that. So you go and do your job and disappear to somebody else for a while. I'm gonna do what you pay me to do and fix this place. In the meantime, some things are gonna burn because I need to take time to do things right. Some platforms are just gonna be left to rot. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. But I guarantee you, in two months time, you will see results. And we come back to it in two months time and despite their frustrations that I hadn't done some of the things that they wanted done, things were starting to move nicely. And it was easy all of a sudden. And I think it takes that you, you're right, you've gotta, you've gotta be prepared to learn. You've gotta be prepared to ask for the help, but you've also gotta be able to, if you are in that position of that senior leader, you've gotta be able to offer that help and, that construction. And you're so right. So I see this in sales a lot, right? is the, best person who gets the most commission, who's on the President's club get promoted into a sales leader, newsflash the skills that got them there. Probably aren't even conducive to being a good leader, let alone does it teach them anything about being a leader. And then we wonder why the rest of the team is now missing their targets because they've lost their strongest salesperson holding the team up, who now can't focus on their own targets anymore.'cause they're running around worried about everybody else's targets and nobody's learning anything because we're all just running around like headless chickens and it's awful. I see it time and time again. I think the work that you are doing is so important. Kathy, what do you think most people get wrong about that kind of personal growth and leadership development? Then? what, could they be doing from day one that would support the sort of things that you help leaders with?'cause ideally we don't want'em to get to crisis mode. We

Kathy: 30:57

Yeah.

Paul: 30:58

wanna help'em ahead of that time.

Kathy: 31:01

the biggest thing is the mindset shift, that this is something that happens outside of work to this is the work of leadership, right? I wanna take a course on growing myself, or I wanna do some journaling. I have to fit that in outside of work. when you shift that mindset and go, this is what leadership is, inner growth and, stuff, you start to do some of that journaling at work. You start to take some of the courses that are maybe more mindset or personal growth courses during your workday. You start to do that self-reflection as a part of preparing for meetings. so it becomes just who you are and how you show up versus something that happens after work. That's the biggest shift.

Paul: 31:45

But Kathy, how do we make time for that Because we haven't got time as it is.

Kathy: 31:49

You don't make time. you create that space. and that's again, that shift that is more important than some meetings that you have on your calendar or some of the work that's required to be done. And when you do it, it actually makes the rest of your work easier, but you're not gonna know that till you try, right? and so what I often talk to people about is micro moments. in inside my membership, I teach a course called, wellness. At work because again, if you're waiting to fill you to ask me about burnout later, if you're waiting to fill your cup back up, at the end of the day, you're never gonna get it back to full. going to the gym once, two or three times a week is not gonna do that. its those micro moments of getting up and stretching and, making sure you're fed and going to the bathroom and all those kind of mini, what can you do in a minute or less? the same is true for self-reflection, just grabbing a piece of paper and saying, this is the problem I have, and answering like, that, right? what do I do about it? or like I say, two or three minutes to just step back and maybe it's while you're walking to the bathroom to go. I wanna show up in this meeting? What's the impact I wanna have? What, do I want this person to feel as a result of our conversation? Those micro moments start that ripple. So it's not that you have to create an hour, every day, 10 minutes at the beginning of your day to go. What's on my schedule and what can I shift, move, where do I need to create some white space because I don't have time to process in between meetings. Those kind of micro moments make an incredible difference.

Paul: 33:31

So I guess the proof will be in the pudding for the next question that I'm gonna ask you, Kathy, is when people, so not everybody will, I bet, try what you've said in terms of being brave enough to make that time and test it and, see what impact it has over a period of time. But. Do people who have tried it ever go back to not bothering again?

Kathy: 33:52

Hundred percent. Hundred percent. Because they get busy and overwhelmed and let it slide. And with any habit, eating healthy, going to the gym, things slide. It is an ongoing commitment that we have to keep coming back to. i encourage my students and my clients to do an annual sort of plan, plan, and a weekly plan If you have in your calendar. Time every week to review. thats where you course correct. So you know, the plane goes from here to here, but really they're doing these little things when you realise, We went from summer to fall here in Canada and summer, I'm outside. I'm doing lots. I'm very active. Once fall hits, it's a little bit cooler and I noticed my 10,000 steps wasn't happening every day. And it's, and if I don't look at that once a week to go, okay, it happens most of the time. But have I actually hit 70,000 in a week? That's my measure.

Paul: 34:56

Yep.

Kathy: 34:56

no i missed it. 2 weeks in a row, huh? time to pull the trampoline out too, right? Like it's those, it's, that's how you do that course correcting and so When we, whenever we're doing something, we have to make a commitment to it, but we have to build in practices to make sure we're on track. I'm coaching somebody, we've been coaching for 6 months and they're doing good and they start to slide and they come back to a call and they're like, Ugh. And so we regroup. that's why. like my membership is a good place for people to like, have that, you know how when you're, you go to the gym, you have that sort of partner or you have a walking buddy, it's important to have a place that kind of reigns you in. Sometimes it's your your spouse. we're all gonna fall, right? That's just human nature. the, question is how long do you wanna feel icky for?'cause

Paul: 35:52

Yeah. it's entirely

Kathy: 35:53

up to you.

Paul: 35:54

Yeah, it's, kind of accountability, of, sorts.

Kathy: 35:58

Yeah.

Paul: 35:59

it's not, quite, but it's on the same lines. So

Kathy: 36:01

a hundred percent. Yeah.

Paul: 36:03

before we wrap things up then, Kathy, I've got one more question to ask. you've at this point, coached, I dunno, how many leaders, countless, people. What's. So the ones that make lasting change and impact, what do they do differently in your opinion?

Kathy: 36:20

They do the self-reflective work a hundred percent. They, even the ones that hate journaling journal in some way, shape or form, they have a piece of paper and they write on it or do some form of self-reflective work that's coaching. That's, some of them have therapists. that's journaling, that's doing written exercises, taking classes that help you go inside, but they do the self-reflective work. I have some incredible success stories and they will tell you as much as like they resisted the journaling. that journaling was key and it's, not dear diary with a lock on it. it's like. What's the value that I wanna make sure is heard in this conversation? what strengths can I bring into this, challenging problem that are gonna help me and my team get through it? That's the kind of journaling I'm talking about, or where I got triggered today. what happened? Like I literally flew off the handle. What, value is getting walked on? What did I notice about, I had not ate and I was actually hangry.

Paul: 37:29

Yeah,

Kathy: 37:30

what happened? And that postmortem is incredibly important.

Paul: 37:34

I love that and I think that's a good clarification for a lot of people out there, right? Because you know you're exactly, you nailed it. And much the same way that people believe personal brand is something you build on social media journaling is something that is a bit woo and it's very much dear diary Dear John.

Kathy: 37:51

Yeah.

Paul: 37:52

And I, think that's incredibly helpful for people out there. It's, maybe that's the starting point for somebody to go, huh? Maybe, I could, maybe we could do that. Kathy, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show today. I've thoroughly enjoyed working through your story and sharing that with the audience. Is there anything you'd like to leave the audience with? as a last few words? well

Kathy: 38:15

thank you. I enjoyed your questions'cause you, whenever I get questions like this, it does help me think and, process my own journey. But then think about other people's journeys. just the decision is up to leaders if you want to change. You don't have to wait for somebody to give you training or tell you what to do or how to do it. It's a choice you get to make. and, you get to make it in your own little world, and you got get to start making those changes internally that will have that, that ripple out regardless of your situation. Man's search for meaning Viktor Frankl. he was, in the, the, holocaust, world. And yet he said nobody can take away what's going on inside us. and that's the truth. We get to make those decisions.

Paul: 39:04

Kathy, it's been fabulous having you on the show today. Thank you so much for your time,

Kathy: 39:08

Thank you so much.

Paul: 39:10

and thank you at home for watching and listening along. Please do give us a subscribe and if you know somebody that would make a fantastic guest just like Kathy, please drop me a line. I'm always looking for new guests for the show this is your podcast. We do this for you, and I'll see you next week. Bye-bye.