From Gang Kids to Global CEOs | Dr Alison Schmidt

Can you imagine going from working with gang-affiliated kids to coaching global CEOs?
That’s the extraordinary path of Dr Alison Schmidt, who’s built a career redefining what leadership really looks like.

In this episode of MarketPulse, Alison opens up about her unconventional journey through retail, hospitality, and education — and how every setback became a lesson in empathy, purpose, and resilience.
She shares powerful moments of honesty, from carrying shame for decades to finding her voice as a neurodivergent leader.

We discuss how COVID forced her to confront her own authenticity, what “being UN” really means, and why true leaders focus less on training and more on DNA — the natural instincts that drive human connection.

 If you’ve ever felt out of place in the corporate world, Alison’s story will show you why that might be your greatest strength.

Subscribe now to MarketPulse for more stories that challenge the norm and celebrate the humans behind leadership.

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Transcript

Paul: 0:00

Right. How do you break the rules without breaking yourself and build a career where bold decisions lead to real Dr. Alison Schmidt is the founder and CEO of Unconvention, a leadership coaching and organisational consulting firm that rejects one size fits all solutions. With over 20 years of experience working alongside CXOs boards entrepreneurs and industry leaders, Alison specialises in uncovering what's really blocking the progress, and then designing high impact strategies that break through barriers. And create lasting momentum. She's also the creator and host of UnConversations,

Alison: 0:43

Hm.

Paul: 0:44

podcast where executives and disruptors share raw, unconventional stories of define the norms, embracing change, and redefining their success. Alison's approach blends candid honesty with a commitment to building cultures where innovation is lived daily, a PhD in organisational psychology. As well as being a board certified coach, Alison draws inspiration from global Travel with her wife Norma, infusing her work with diverse perspectives and a di edit and you wanna get one wrong and a drive for meaningful change. Alison? Wow, what a bio. Welcome to the show.

Alison: 1:23

Thank you Paul. I'm listening to that now. I understand how my guests feel when I kind of introduce them.'cause you're sitting here like, wow. I have done a lot. Thank you. That I am just so happy to be here. Thank you for the very warm welcome to your show.

Paul: 1:39

More than welcome. More than welcome. I'm gonna dive straight in like I do with, all of our guests because there's so much to cover amongst all of that, and I really want to get through as much as I can, because I know your story is going to be absolutely fascinating for a lot of our audience. Let's, rewind back to. What, was your first paid role? What was your first salary job? and what led you there? Because that's, for me, that's often where it starts.

Alison: 2:07

you know, I actually worked in retail, so I worked for Gap. For a bit of time. One I loved fashion and gap was very fashionable back then. And, of course I loved working with with people. And I I did have some people at a time that I you know, mentored in that process, coached in that process. And I, like I said, it, was kind of an easy an easy job because it kind of blend the things that I really enjoyed. And then I kind of moved into I, I also worked for the Marriott. At a certain period of time. So I was in hospitality. I actually thought I was gonna go down the hospitality road and then I figured I didn't think that was a good place for me. I think'cause I wanted to change so much of what the different roles and responsibilities that I was doing, that I was thinking to myself. I don't know of hospitality. I think I'm a better guest than I am a better employee to work in that space.

Paul: 3:15

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Alison: 3:17

and then again, still working with people. I decided that I wanted to, I was in social work for a period of time, so I was working with gang kids. And I started to get quite burnt out of that. And I moved then kind of in the role of doing more family family and adolescent therapy, not necessarily more, and working with the gang kids side. And then when I decided that I thought I was gonna get my PhD in. Clinical psychology. I have this passion. I know we'll get into that of business and people, which is sort of why organizational psychology kind of became a, really natural fit for me.

Paul: 4:09

Wow. So, I mean, even just in that, in, in that early intro, we've gone from, retail and hospitality, which I know a lot of people that connect between the two and I'm, former retail and I'm a big believer that who. Cuts their teeth in a career in retail or hospitality, really learn so many transferable skills.

Alison: 4:31

totally.

Paul: 4:32

whole, tend to box ourselves into doing more of the same. And, a lot of people stay in that career for life. But actually I'm a big believer that if you are looking for somebody. A little bit outside the box that's well-rounded and, is able to do a lot of different tasks that they've not necessarily been trained on. Retail and hospitality are the go-to industries for me because we're so flexible and, talented in that respect.

Alison: 4:57

I would totally agree with you on that. I, think, and it's a very high paced both of those industries are extremely

Paul: 5:05

and high pressure.

Alison: 5:06

and high paced. Which I will say a lot of those skills that I learned in those experiences, you know, I you know, I still use to this day. And plus I have a huge admiration for those individuals that, do work in those industries without a doubt.

Paul: 5:25

Yeah. you can't not appreciate people in that. But once you've been there and done it yourself, right? Yeah, I hundred percent, a hundred percent. Get that. how did you end up working with gang kids and social work

Alison: 5:36

Yeah.

Paul: 5:37

like

Alison: 5:37

That normally, yeah.

Paul: 5:38

of that, where

Alison: 5:40

I think my, parents asked me the same thing because I certainly did not grow up. I grew up very middle class but

Paul: 5:47

Hmm.

Alison: 5:48

I loved, you know what it is. I think for me it was a challenge. I didn't even though I grew up middle class, I did go through my own struggles. And my parents were there to help me to the best of their ability. And I have always found, especially in kids and adolescents, you know, they're, just looking for someone. That really gets them and kind of understands them and not realizing that their past necessarily doesn't have to define their future. And it just, it, I was just drawn, I was really drawn to really helping those kids I was living at the time in Los Angeles. So, you know, people would be very surprised to know that I, was walking the streets in Compton which as a Caucasian woman were predominantly black people were in that area. It, was very like. Whoa, what, are you doing here? And but I think because of the differences, and I think because of my empathy not, and not necessarily coming from a place of feeling sorry for these kids, but more of wanting to understand them, I think I was able to do some amazing work and, really help a, lot of kids, more or less than, not but. On the flip side of that, I noticed within myself that I was becoming quite a hard person. Meaning you're seeing a lot on the street. And seeing what these kids go through not only the mental, physical, sexual abuse that could possibly go on the living conditions that some of these kids were living. You, you be, you have to kind of, protect yourself a bit. And when I went through that process. You know, it was kind of, I didn't sort of like what was sort of happening with me, which is where I needed to kind of take a step back and kind of redefine what sort of additional focus I, wanted to do as a as a career moving forward.

Paul: 8:00

I can imagine I can't. Well, no, I can't imagine. I can't imagine some of the things you've heard and stories you've had told to you. I mean, we have gang life here in England, but I don't think it, it very rarely edges onto the skill that, that I know that from, friends and connections that I've got in the states that, you know, certainly in, in, areas like Compton and, many others that, you must see. So that's, amazing gift that you've been given to be able to work with people. And as you see, I think the important thing is, not, coming from a, like these people, like, they don't want people to feel sorry for them, right? Like, they just do want to be understood. And I think that's an amazing differentiation to be able to make for, a lot of people. So you've always had people in the, in your soul, right? Like this what fills you up is, is that

Alison: 8:55

For sure, for sure.

Paul: 8:57

people become better than what they are. What's your earliest memory of then challenging the status core to help ship the path that you've taken since then?

Alison: 9:08

You know, you and I spoke about this before and I think one of the things that really resonated with you and I allowed you, and I really appreciate. Appreciate you allowing me to share this, but I was diagnosed with a learning disability. I've always had it, of course, but this was something that was fully diagnosed when I was 18 years old about to graduate from high school. And, you know, during that time it was difficult because. You know, I didn't know how to really explain what was kind of going on with me. My parents didn't know really what was going on. All they wanted to know was, what do I need to do to get my child to graduate and we can send her to a good school. But that process during that was very transactional. Not really back then. There wasn't people that you could really talk to that you could really kind of have. Empathy and support. It was more of, okay, let's figure out what's going on. Let's figure out what box we're gonna put her in so we know how to treat this and, move on. And so for me, again, that was the best that, you know, the environment you're talking about, the eighties and the type of tests that were out there, that was really the best they could do. However though for me, I felt it was a stigma and I had this piece of paper that they gave to me when I was, diagnosed and I carried this piece of paper around with me up until I graduated from my PhD. So this is something from 1989, I'm just about to date myself. And I carried this piece of paper'cause it was the only way that I could get special accommodation. For testing and other things that I would need, and it wasn't a lot, but the, accommodations that I need back then seem like they were life changing. Today. They're probably like, yeah, you need some extra time. No worries. It's all good.

Paul: 11:10

Yep.

Alison: 11:10

But for some reason back then it was, that is not fair to the masses. You may need that. Instead of going, yes, you have something, this is gonna help you. Achieve and be great like your other counterparts, but instead it was looked at. We don't wanna show favoritism. And so that's why I had to carry this piece of paper. And I think for me I think it made me stronger. I think it has made me, a great businesswoman. And I think it also has made me very good at what I'm able to do in my coaching and consulting practice that I've had 30 years. And, being able to not only help my clients with transactional things they may need, but also for me, it's really that human side. And I think going through what I went through early on has made me even more of an empathetic and understanding person that I am today.

Paul: 12:23

Yeah. it's, interesting, like you've mentioned like the, unspecified learning disability, which, I find in equal parts interesting and frustrating, and I almost feel a frustration on your behalf because how can we know that there is something I need support with, but not be able to put a name to what that is,

Alison: 12:44

Right.

Paul: 12:44

almost a contradiction in itself. Right.

Alison: 12:47

Well, they had a name for it, but it wasn't a very good name that they, it was a very derogatory name that they would probably use,

Paul: 12:56

mm-hmm.

Alison: 12:58

that would be completely unacceptable now and what that could do to someone.

Paul: 13:03

a lot of

Alison: 13:03

Yeah.

Paul: 13:04

eighties, right?

Alison: 13:05

For.

Paul: 13:06

Yeah. Yeah, it's, but it, rings, it reminds me of the conversation I had with, so the charity partner for Our show, which is ADHD, Liberty, and the lady who runs that, Sarah Templeton, met because. I'd listened to the audio book that she'd released, which is titled How Not To Murder Your ADHD Kids. And, she's the most British person for an audio book, right? So she's very, kind of almost sounds like a posh accent when she speaks,

Alison: 13:37

Sure.

Paul: 13:37

very down to earth with it. so. it's, I can't really describe it, but go, away and have a listen to it if you've got time, because it's, just a phenomenal listen. And I identified so much of myself in that book when I was, trying to find out about my son, and I contacted her and said, I'd love to have you on the show, love to have you on the show. And she said, yes. But during that show, her story was that she'd been a prison counselor for a decade, and at the age of 52, she was diagnosed, ADHD

Alison: 14:07

Mm-hmm.

Paul: 14:07

And what she realised was the reason why she'd been able to connect with all of the prisoners that she'd worked with so well was because she truly understood the way their brain worked. And what she now does is, a lot of important work on how to break the school to prison pipeline for undiagnosed or unmedicated ADHD people. Which to me sounds, it's got a lot in common with the story that you've just shared there with, you know, being able to reach gang kids and, working unafraid in that environment because you know that up here, you've, connected with them, you've see them, you understand them. Not that. You, you un you've experienced what they've experienced because that's not true. But you've, learned to understand what motivates them, why they do the things they do, and you can speak to them on their level where you kind of shared that energy together. I do wonder, did you think that kind of level of empathy and understanding is something that then helped you stand out in your field and, kind of motivate you towards getting that PhD then?

Alison: 15:12

For, without a doubt. Without a doubt. Paul. I, you know, I think the other thing as I was going through my PhD program, and I think, you know, it's interesting because I actually have two master's degrees and a PhD and so one of my master's degree is in education. Clinical education. Then as I was getting my PhD in organisational psychology, you get a master's, you go through that process and then

Paul: 15:40

Yeah.

Alison: 15:40

and so what, what was kind of an oxymoron about all this is because I, feel like I'm a better speaker, and writing is probably one of the hardest things for me. And reading is also one of the hardest things for me because for me, when I read something. I have to read word for word and then go back and put it together, and then the sentence then makes sense to me. That is usually why multiple choice questions are like, you know, usually my demise, but because of, I never. Took no for an answer. I think I was receiving a lot of messages that I can't do something and I think back then that was more of the message that you couldn't do something. Then the message I think that it is today of you can, this, these aren't things that need to stop you. And so for me that's really, I was my mentor really in that. And I didn't realise much of that until I went through my own executive coaching and my own therapy that I've done that I needed to give myself that, credit to be able to go, no, no matter what was getting in your way, you still knew that you could achieve it. You knew it was gonna be hard as hell and you know, it was gonna be a tough road. And there were times I was. Just crying out of pure frustration. But at the end of the day, I knew there was no other way but to complete it. And I also think that comes too from my, which is why on my podcast will that I hope we get to too, is I interview elite coaches and athletes because I, myself was a competitive swimmer and I also ran, and so I think sports was really. A lifeline for me because that gave me a healthy way to deal with my frustrations or deal with insecurities or deal with if I was feeling anxiety or feeling depressed. I, knew that if there was that outlet for me through sports I think also has helped me get to the individual that I am today.

Paul: 18:04

Yeah, I think people that I've spoke to, I think there's, something, something special about swimming. That it's kind of, it's almost sensory stimulation for a lot of people. And, it's, it makes it very easy to, focus in the moment.

Alison: 18:56

Yes,

Paul: 18:56

Whereas a lot of other sports can be quite loud and intimidating and, team sports, you've gotta work together. You've gotta listen to what people are saying. Whereas swimming, a lot of the time is it's solo sport

Alison: 19:06

yes. and

Paul: 19:07

you're in the water. And I've heard a lot of people say, I just find peace.

Alison: 19:10

Yes,

Paul: 19:11

I find peace in that moment when I'm underwater and, nothing else matters beautiful,

Alison: 19:17

it's, true. It's you and the current of the water and how fast you're gonna, how fast you're gonna go.

Paul: 19:22

amazing. you're 100%

Alison: 19:24

about that. Yeah, it is. It's, a very kind of peaceful, but you know, and it's, breathing is a very big part of swimming and knowing when to breathe

Paul: 19:35

Yep.

Alison: 19:36

and knowing when to breathe can either make or break that particular race. And I, have learned that and taken that valuable lesson throughout my career because when I am feeling something overstimulating or has me not feeling balanced. I think about that moment of being in the water and getting my breath in check, and that helps me tremendously.

Paul: 20:09

So if we then, if, we kind of go back to the your work timeline, I guess what was the point where you realised you didn't fit into the traditional corporate mold? Was there a, turning point for you? Where, kind of a switch flicked

Alison: 20:25

Yeah,

Paul: 20:25

what, was it?

Alison: 20:26

I, think I have always felt that I'm from, I think I kind of made a joke on another podcast, I think it was even when I came outta my mom's womb, that, I've always felt that way. I, and I sort of almost felt like an outcast in, that way. Because I am such an inquisitive person and, I don't ask why. Meaning? Why? Because I just wanna say why, or I think something needs to change because internally, I, feel I'm right about something. I, think. One of my we'll use the term that people say, I guess superpower is I'm able to really look at a situation very differently than sometimes other people and in such a deeper way. And I, try to cover that up a bit because I. You know, people were not responding, weren't responding well to that because they wanted me to conform and just say yes or agree with either it was my boss or the coworker or whatever the case may be. And, even in my family, I, have always been just an inquisitive person and I like to understand how things work. I like to understand how people think and. I, tried very hard to lessen that until I started my own business. And when I started my own business and started, and this was my first one, it was called ALS group. And I think at that time when I gave myself the freedom to not conform and to not do what everyone else is doing. I was getting a lot more positive reinforcement than actually negative reinforcement. If, that makes sense.

Paul: 22:28

Yeah. No. It does. it does. And I think that resonates for a lot of us who've gone off and built our own business. Certainly, my experience as a Neurodiverse crew. That I speak to, you know, I find that, you know, I, remember conversations when, I was, conversations when I was at work, and you exactly what you've said resonates really so much because I remember a specific conversation with my area manager when I was running, when I was running retail stores, and frustration with me boiled over one morning, about 3 o'clock in the morning. We'd, done a stock take the night before and we were still all there. it was me and like 4 of my, 4 of my colleagues who were also managers and, he was dishing out jobs and he just, he asked me to do something and I just went, why why, are we doing that? Right? And he was like, Paul, it doesn't matter why you just, why can't you just tow the company line for once? You know, your life would be much easier if you just did what you were asked. And I was like. Well, it might be, but that's not the way I'm wired.

Alison: 23:29

Yeah, I

Paul: 23:30

need to know why, because what you've told me to do doesn't seem to make sense. If you can explain, there's something that I don't understand, then, I can get behind that and you'll not find anybody who will be more passionate about doing what you've asked

Alison: 23:43

exactly. Yeah.

Paul: 23:44

But if you expect me to do something. That, that potentially is, it doesn't have a positive benefit to anybody that I can see or, positive impact in any way, shape or form. You just want me to change a process for the sake of changing it. You will not find anybody will drag their heels more than I will.

Alison: 24:02

Right.

Paul: 24:02

And you can discipline me, you can put me on the naughty step. You can do what you like, but I will not do it out of principle.

Alison: 24:09

Yeah.

Paul: 24:09

And we, never quite, you know, was no, I didn't realise I was ADHD at the time. There was no conversation about that corporate world. We didn't discuss neurodiversity in

Alison: 24:18

Oh, no. No, not at all.

Paul: 24:20

but what you've said, just,

Alison: 24:22

Yeah.

Paul: 24:22

like it's, it's, funny. I know, I bet there, there are so many people out there who are kind of stuck in that same rut and don't even realise why they find those things frustrating. So for me that's, it's, quite liberating. what happened with ALS then? So you mentioned that was your first buisness

Alison: 24:37

Yeah. Yeah. So, I had ALS group and that I had that business for over 20 years. And then COVID hit. And

Paul: 24:49

Right.

Alison: 24:49

everything just it was a horrible time. It was a very stressful time for me. I was traveling quite often. Everything just completely stopped with the whole world. I had contracts, that people were like, we don't know what's happening, what's going on? And so I. You know, I was talking to my, wife and I was like, okay, so I don't know how long this is gonna go. And then I'm sitting here like, how do I do what I do and do as well as I can do it with my clients over this kind of outlet? We've had, you know, we've had WebEx around for a while. We had Zoom. These were meetings, these were, but how do I really connect with someone so strongly? How do you get accountability from your clients over this screen? So that was one of my initial thoughts. And then the other initial thought that came to my mind was, wow, I had this moment to really sit here, stop and reflect. Like, when do we really get to, to do that? And so I'm an avid cyclist. I, don't run much anymore. And so I went out for a long bike ride next day, got up, went out for a long bike ride, and I had a discussion with myself and it was like, if you could do something, time wasn't an issue, would you? Keep doing the kind of consulting work that you're doing and the coaching work that you're doing. And I answered myself honestly, that I felt that there were some missing pieces to my offerings, to what I enjoy doing with people where I like to help. Corporations and I went through my process and I decided that ALS group was no longer the, name, yes, it's me but it was no longer serving itself in the context that I first started this company. And I, my company is called Unconvention, as you mentioned, because that Is embracing me as being an unconventional CEO and leader and, embracing all the wonderful things about me personally and professionally that make up this unconventional individual and the type of offerings and the work and the type of clients I wanna work with. And you also mentioned I'm the, creator and host of UnConversations. It's, and I, mean, I had people talk to me about doing that and I was like, okay, so I'm gonna now do something where it's not very competitive in the podcast market. Like, what am I gonna do? Like, okay, let me see how I can play in this space. And as you said, we, interview unconventionally excellent global CXOs, entrepreneurs and founders, and my goal is to globally begin to bring the human side back to business and where we can understand the human side of these leaders and what truly, besides their tactical work that they do. And they're amazing, their own companies or the companies that they're employed with, but there's also this amazing person and amazing stories that need to be shared and talked about that got them to where they are today. And I, like you and I were just talking before, it is just one of my greatest, greatest highlights is being, and, I think I'm more. I feel more honored to have my guests come on. They, tell me they're honored and I appreciate that, but I, feel the honor just because of the level and the vulnerability that my guests are willing to go to it. It's, really a, special podcast.

Paul: 29:02

I love that. I have to ask as one podcast host to another, Alison,

Alison: 29:06

Yes.

Paul: 29:06

how do you come across unconventional Leaders in order to invite them on the podcast? Because let's be honest, there is no LinkedIn filter for conventional versus unconventional.

Alison: 29:16

Correct.

Paul: 29:17

what, how, do you find them?

Alison: 29:19

Well, you know, it, I started out doing a couple of what I like to call cold call on LinkedIn. I either loved the person's brand, I loved what they talked about. I loved the products. It was all the above. And I have to tell you now, it's more people who have been on the show after they've gone through the process that they're like, this is. This is really cool. And part of what makes my podcast very uniquely different is I have my guests go through what I coined the UN word effect. And I have each of my guests think of 3 words that begin with un And here in the, States the UN sometimes in the English language here in the US can have a very negative connotation a meaning to it. And so I have my guests think about what that process was like for them. When I asked them to think about these UN words. I had them come up with those un words and talk about them individually, and it's been amazing because you get this really unique. Understanding, in depth, understanding of who this individual is by just how they came up with these UN words, through the process and the individual words themselves. And even sometimes I'm even shocked. I'm like, wow, that is such a great word for that person. And then they'll even go into it further and I'm like, oh my God, I had no idea that word had so much meaning. To them and, some of the young words could, be, have a negative and the guests will speak of it in a way where this really contributed to the early part of, their life, but how they actually overcame it to a much more positive experience. But even if the word was negative for them, it is still a learning process that they went through and it's amazing what they. Shared through that process to where that word now no longer identifies or holds a negative meaning to them, if that makes sense?

Paul: 31:42

How did you come up with the idea? what, inspired you to ask them that in the first place?

Alison: 31:48

Yeah, it's a great question. What inspired me really was when people would ask me about. We use these words, like, I'd be like, oh, I'm out. You know, I'm Dr. Alison Schmidt and you know, I'm CEO of X company and, it's the same sort of thing. And I was like, well, that's not really intriguing. I mean, those are just like tactical things about me, but. Doesn't really tell people really who I am and what I'm about. And I, spoke to a colleague of mine when I was trying to come up with the name of my company unconvention and she's from Paris and she said, I don't know, there's something around this un and, I think it could be an amazing branding for your company. And I was like, I don't even know what that means. Okay. And so I started doing my own.

Paul: 32:43

that in a French accent as you

Alison: 32:44

Oh, it was ama. Oh yeah. It's, I will tell you, it sounded way sexier when she said it in an accent than, having it with a US or a, you know, a, New York slash Texas accent. I was like, so say that to me again, why I should do this. No, it, it sounded great. I really should just have her do more of my podcast intros for me. But yeah, I, brought myself through my own onward effect. I didn't know what it was gonna be called, and in fact, I didn't come up with that onward effect until April of this year. Then I started trying it out with certain guests and seeing how it was gonna flow. But the concept behind it is actually what I went through myself, and I did identify my own un words At the time, my un words were unconventional, of course unapologetic and undeterred were my 3 And it just helped. It just kind of helped me how I talked to people about myself because I've just, so, I've just been so used to talking like. This, and I'm like, God, I'm bored of myself. Like there's more to me than just these degrees and my title. And, I, wanted to find a way to help get to the core and who I am today, and that's sort of how that process all began.

Paul: 34:17

That's a, that's a brilliant story. I love that. I'm so pleased I asked that. so then I guess your, so your focus is around unconventional leadership, which makes me want to ask the question. What's the most unconventional leadership decision you've made that you are the most proud of? I think not, the most unconventional decision, but Which one are you most proud of? What did that teach you?

Alison: 34:40

You know, I, will tell you, I, my earlier career, I did things very unconvention. I did things conventionally, excuse me. I did things very conventionally. I did things the way, textbook wise, we should do very kind of systemically. And I didn't realise how unfulfilling that really was for me. And I, do feel confidently that I was serving. My clients, of course, to the best of my ability. But I, would have to say COVID for me was such a blessing because it, to me, my, my family was safe, thankfully. And, I got to go, yeah. I wanna start having fun with really good fun with what I'm doing and. I think allowing myself finally at 50 to not do the things that people would expect me to do. And so this is probably the most fun I've had, not only doing this podcast, which scared me to death, you know, I don't know when you first started, but it, did me, not that I don't like talking to people, but I'm very hard on myself.'cause I wanna produce a really great. Product and I wanna do really well by the guests that is sharing the space with me during their, episode. So for me, I, think the most unconventional thing for me that I could have done was giving myself the permission to be unconventional. And no matter what anyone's gonna say, think do, it, didn't matter. I, gave myself that, that, that freedom. And I, I know with the response that I've been getting from people, the level of connections that I've been able to get you know, I, it's just been super fun. It's just been a lot of fun and, I think I, that's how I knew it was time to make that change.

Paul: 36:48

I think there's so many people that, that could learn a lesson from that Alison, because it's, it kind of, it's very much in line with a lot of the things that I've, preached for so long. You know, I, mean, I, left corporate world in 2020 just as COVID was hitting and I'd always worked in person and I was, at that time I was working in retail. As COVID kicked off

Alison: 37:08

Mm-hmm.

Paul: 37:08

It was an awful experience to,

Alison: 37:10

Oh,

Paul: 37:10

having to

Alison: 37:11

horrible.

Paul: 37:11

to work during that when so many people were, you know, oh, we're working from home now and we get a laptop and I can protect my family, and, I'm the guy that's, you know, still going out there and, putting myself on the line. But the more I've come away from. That corporate world and I guess unincorporated myself. So if I want to use an un word, there's, one for me like that. That's sort tough for people to do is to switch from getting permission to speak my mind or to say something that might contradict our policies and procedures, just being able to express myself. You know, I remember my very first guest podcast. I, was podcasted, I was asked to be a guest on a retail loss prevention podcast'cause that's my background. I did a lot of, work in loss prevention and fraud, still remember getting on that audio only podcast. And being absolutely terrified when they hit the record button and asked me to introduce myself, because what was going through my head was, know, you are just a store manager. you've just worked in retail for 15 years, but you're, not a senior leader. you've never run your own business. You've never done all of these things. Why would anybody want to listen to you? And it's, there was this, voice was so real and I found myself like I'm quite a confident talker on, those sorts of things. But I just found myself hyperventilating. And for the first 10 minutes, I've listened to that podcast since the first 10 minutes are awful because. i'm just like, yeah, I can, I, remember my brain just reeling, like, what do I say? What do I say? How do I make sure I don't say anything that's gonna get me in trouble? What if somebody who, I used to work with is listening to this and what would they think of me?

Alison: 38:55

Yeah, and i'm

Paul: 38:55

trying to introduce myself at the same time, and I'm still figuring on my own story and how to introduce myself. You're right, it's, absolutely petrifying But at the same time, it's so liberating once you get used to it because. You become your own voice of reason. I think to your point

Alison: 39:12

yeah, I. that

Paul: 39:13

passion is, paramount.

Alison: 39:14

Yeah, I absolutely agree. You know, it's interesting because when, you know, being in this space of, coaching and consulting, which I've done for a very long time, but when I decided to do the podcast, I remember you know, hey, you should reach out to your friends and, Family and ask them for, you know, referrals on who, whatever. And I, I remember clearly, I, asked one my really very close friend and the first words weren't like, man, that sounds freaking cool. I love what you're gonna do. That's like, really awesome. It was like, so what do you think is gonna be in it for your guests? And I was like. And, my head just was just like, what? Like what? What do you, what do you mean? Like, I just told you like, this is like great. I mean, you know, like, what do you mean how's this sound? And it was like, but the difference at that point for that person was what is it in for them money-wise? Meaning how could anyone do something without there necessarily being a monetary connection to it? And, I, will say I have had more people I think I only had. One person that said that, Hey, you know, they don't do anything without being paid. And you know, their friends have asked them to and they need to be paid. And I'm like, oh, okay. I get it all good. And then I had one other person that kind of had a similar thing, but I will tell you the rest of them, I have just been like, I have been so looking forward to this because. You said it perfectly, and I think your podcast does a beautiful job in this too. We're looking for platforms where we can express ourselves. The business is, gonna be there. we will get to that, and that's crucially important. But I think also being able to express ourselves, tell people who we are, I think is also just as important because that person's like, ah, man, I heard you on this podcast. You had the vibe. I like, I love the way you talk. I, Just get this really great connection and I wanna do coaching with you. Like, I, get it. I mean, you are probably gonna kick my ass and I want you, and that's why I think blending both of these components and, I think corporations also, I was reading in some of your questions and, one of them really stood out to me. They, they all did, by the way. But. We have to allow in corporations for employees to be able to express themselves. And, I think that's going to really help with, and not just when we meet with an employee, we're talking about tactical things, performance things. Has this been completed? When's it gonna be completed? But really understand because. We are in a a very interesting time here in the States and with our administration what is happening and we're also dealing with the pressures of what's happening with corporations here. There are layoffs. There's probably gonna be many more layoffs, which is probably gonna be happening right before the holidays. That's usually the time that kind of happens and. You know, I, think leaders need to spend more time being empathetic and understanding as long and, what their employees are going through, as well as their roles and responsibilities that are needing to be met in the organisation And I, really speak about that clearly there. Yes, you can be a great leader, but I think one of the greatest. Skillset as a leader is to be empathetic and understanding as well as the tactical things that you need to make sure that your team obviously is responsible for.

Paul: 43:26

I think it's a root, super rare skill set though, right?

Alison: 43:28

Yeah.

Paul: 43:31

not, many leaders, even the ones that are capable of both feel the pressure to not be both because. The problem for a lot of companies always comes from above, right? Comes down from the top level and comes down from investors and, shareholders whoever, and they want to see results.

Alison: 43:49

Yeah.

Paul: 43:49

And results mean things need to be measured. And empathy can't be measured really.

Alison: 43:55

Yeah, it can

Paul: 43:55

but kind of not in the same way that investors and shareholders care about, right?

Alison: 43:59

of course.

Paul: 43:59

Nobody's ever gonna stand up and say, well, you know what? Empathy levels were up 30% this year, and that's in line with our revenue increase in, so we're all gonna be more empathetic. That would be a great time, right? Like everybody would love to be able to do that, I think that's what drives a lot of the challenges that we see in leadership certainly in Western culture, right? Like, I, think that's, a massive problem that we need to address and get to grip of, because. Otherwise, we're just gonna be stuck in this constant loop of corporate life. Best people freeing themselves and becoming entrepreneurs and founding their own businesses and moving on with life, but who's left running the corporate world?'cause we need people in that corporate life.

Alison: 44:41

Of course, it's

Paul: 44:42

not like we can just all extract ourselves and, be happy. We

Alison: 44:46

of course. Of course. need

Paul: 44:47

people in the coporate So, I, you know,hats off to anybody that can go into that environment and help make a difference because I think it's, certainly needed. It's, you know. I can't imagine how brave the leaders have to be in the first place to even request the help. Right. to get coaching in

Alison: 45:07

Yeah,

Paul: 45:07

we,'cause you need to acknowledge your problem first. Right.

Alison: 45:10

definitely, definitely.

Paul: 45:12

I wonder what's in your experience then, Alison, you know, obviously you've worked with lots of leaders, you've worked with lots of industry sectors. What's. What's working in leadership and business right now that leaders should pay more attention to? Aside from kind of empathy and, understanding what's, something that you think everybody's missing?

Alison: 45:29

You know, again, you know, I think really what they're missing is, think. proper training of their, and proper coaching of their, and, also asking your employees what they really wanna do and where they wanna go. I find that your leaders aren't spending the time asking their team what they really enjoy doing. I think they just go, oh, we'll move so and so into this role. And, that'll be, really great. And then that, and that person doesn't necessarily wanna say no because they're at risk that their job is probably, you know, well then we'll find someone else who wants to do it and you'll be let go.

Paul: 46:14

Yep.

Alison: 46:14

And so I, think what leaders need to do is, I mean, a lot of these things are very. Cyclical. We're, doing the same things and we're getting the same results. Like, to me, it's amazing that we're talking about retention. Like retention. To me, I is just like, I, can't believe we're still talking about it because there's really clear, there's studies, there's clear things that corporations can, honestly do that are not very expensive. Because what's expensive is turnover. We do not wanna look at that number because that number, we just don't wanna see it. And I will tell you, I, I have been preaching this too since I was in graduate school that I can't believe we're in this, same place. But I also think we also need to spend the time. Really get the people that we want to move into these leadership roles. Not just trained because we have a, set training company and as long as they go in and check the box on all their trainings that great, we, they, checked the box, they achieved everything they needed to. You are now a leader and go lead that, that is, doesn't make an effective leader that, that has educated them. With some tools to consider, but a good leader is also internal.'cause I have some skill sets as a leader that you're not gonna find in a textbook. it's in my DNA and through my own experience on top of the things that I. You know, have learned through many years of, schooling and being on, the job. And I, so I think if we spend time asking people what type of work do they really enjoy doing, and let those people do that and also have proper succession planning because if people know that if they work hard and, showing the results, that there's a next step for them. They're gonna be even more committed to wanting to even work harder for the company that they're working for. But I find with leadership, we, tend to alienate employees. We don't wanna talk to them. Then they finally get really upset and then they're like, that's it. I wanna, I'm gonna leave. And statistically speaking, 9 times outta 10. It still shows up as the number one reason that employees will leave a company because of their managers. It is not necessarily because of the money aspect, it's because of, there could be a combination of that, of course, but usually it's because of the managers of why or their direct reports of why they're leaving.

Paul: 49:13

I think we need to see a culture change where. We take ownership of the leaders for tomorrow. And I think that's it's very shortsighted leadership approach that we see that drives a lot of these problems. It's somebody else's problem tomorrow, as long as I've done my job.

Alison: 49:27

Correct. Sure.

Paul: 49:29

you know, but we can all make that positive difference in our own way I've. Alison, I could probably, we could probably do this for like 3 or 4 hours and I'd, still be here asking you questions, so like, I, do need to, I need to draw the episode to a close, but I, would love to have you come back at some point. But before I do that, I've got an unconventional question for you, which I've never asked any guest before, but i'm inspired by the, conversation that we've had

Alison: 49:54

oh, I'm honored.

Paul: 49:55

as a child. What was your favorite board game and why?

Alison: 49:58

I loved, oh. What's that game? Twister. I love Twister. Twister was really great. Are you familiar with Twister? You. Yeah. So I love Twister. It was like, so I can, I count that as a board game because I mean, you get in all these like crazy.

Paul: 50:16

I will give you it.

Alison: 50:17

Okay. Yeah. i asked you an

Paul: 50:18

unconventional question. You give me an unconventional answer to the unconventional question. Sweet. We will live with that, right?

Alison: 50:23

Say it whisper say it. You can see I don't follow the rules. I could say could it also be I did like the card. I, know it's not a board game, I mean. Listen, I played Monopoly before, so you know, of course I love Monopoly. that's a great game. But, I have to say, probably one of the most fun I had is playing Twister.'cause it was of course,'cause it's a group, you know, it's a, group game and everyone gets all like twisted up and, I don't know, it's just kind of fun.

Paul: 50:52

I love it. I love it. Alison, you've been an absolutely fabulous guest. Thank you so much for your time this evening. I really do appreciate

Alison: 50:58

Oh, Paul, thank you. It has been an absolute honor and thank you so much for inviting me on your podcast. I've enjoyed every moment of it.

Paul: 51:07

You are more than welcome, and we will, like I said, we'll have you back'cause I've, thoroughly enjoyed the chat and there's so much more we can dive into. I. If you are watching along at home and you've, thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. Have a look in the show notes'cause all of Alison links will be in there. So if you wanna contact Alison, you wanna find out a bit more about Unconvention, you absolutely do that. If you want a podcast and, give that a subscribe to follow, please do. Because I'm a big fan of all of our guests who have their own podcasts. We need to spread the word about good podcast'cause God knows is enough poor quality stuff out there that's just bland. If you've listened to this episode, you're gonna know that Alison's would be anything. But, thank you listeners, watchers at home for, coming along and watching this episode as ever. you have any ideas for guests, anybody you'd like to see on the show and topics you'd like covered, please drop me a line, let me know. But please, above all and else give us a subscribe and a follow. Thank you very much and I'll see you next week all and else.