Success That Feels Good, Not Just Looks Good | Zoë Thompson

Zoë Thompson’s story is a masterclass in modern leadership. From being labelled a bossy little thing, to policing leadership in the 90s with no handbook, to becoming an international strongwoman, single parent, and eventually being made redundant after 20 years.

In this episode, Zoë shares the turning points that shaped her: the terrible supervisor that sparked her drive, the moments she had to prove people wrong, and the choice every leader faces when things aren’t working: either moan or act. She talks honestly about imposter syndrome, gender bias, and what it takes to keep moving when the pressure is real.

We also get practical. Zoë reveals her PIIPS framework, explains why identity changes everything, and shows how to create success that feels good, not just looks good. If you want impact without burnout, this one is for you.

Thanks for listening!!

You can catch us on all major podcast directories - New episode every Wednesday at 3pm UK time. Give us a subscribe to make sure you don't miss out!

We're also on YouTube!

If you want to feature as a guest, and you're either a business owner who does most of their own marketing, or you're a marketer with a passion for sharing your knowledge, current trends and adding value, reach out to me directly.

This show is brought to you by Javelin Content Management.

We're a husband and wife team who specialise in helping fascinating people launch amazing podcasts, where we extract all of the content 'juice' by squeezing their episodes and repurposing the clips.

We manage podcasts across lots of industries and sectors for our clients, specialising in hosts with ADHD and neurodiversity (like us!)

We also work with existing podcasters who just want to get the hard work off their hands, or who are finding the whole process tiring and dull!

Transcript

Paul 0:00

She saw what relentless leadership does to people long before it broke them, and Zoe decided to build a different way. Zoe Thompson is the leadership coach who helps overwhelmed leaders stop reacting to life and start leading it on purpose, not through hacks, habits, or hustle, but by changing who they believe they are when the pressure hits. Her path has been forged in high stakes environments from 20 years in police leadership, rising fast, leading teams under constant scrutiny, managing major crime, logistics, and then carrying responsibility most people will never see. Alongside that, she raised her son as a single parent competed internationally as a strongwoman, and quietly built a coaching business that would one day become her entire focus. What changed Everything wasn't a productivity problem, it was identity. Zoë saw that no system diary or boundary works, if the leader underneath still believes their worth comes from being needed busy or available. And today, through her PIIPS framework plan, intention, identity, performance, and structure, she helps leaders create success that feels as good as it looks. Leaders who gore home on time take time off, real time off. And who perform at a high level without sacrifice themselves in the process. She doesn't teach theory. She teaches from lived experience and from all. And from the moment she chose to stop surviving leadership and start shaping it Zoe, welcome to the show.

Zoe 1:37

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Paul 1:39

Well, welcome Although ironically, this'll go out sometime in February. This is our first recording of 2026, so happy New Year and welcome to the show. I'm gonna dive straight into it Zoe'cause we've talked about a lot there in the entrance bit. When you think back to your early life. What would you say that the first signs were as a young person, that you'd be comfortable carrying that responsibility, that leadership responsibility? What? What would your mam have known that you were gonna go on to be a leader?

Zoe 2:10

funny. You should ask that because only last night, one of my connections, he's actually an ex-colleague posted on LinkedIn about his scouting days and I. Commented to say that being a sixer in the brownies was my first ever leadership role. Gosh, brownies, what's that? Age seven to 10. So yeah, probably at 10 I was sixer of the brownies. Very proud of my two stripes. So I think that would've been, that would've been my first leadership role, and actually through guiding. went on to be young leader and was at one point at Brown Owl as well. So I guess, yeah, that probably was my first step into leadership and then, yeah, then started working for the police and the leadership came in quite early on after that. So would my parents have known. Yeah, probably. I think back then as well, there was definitely terms for girls, weren't there that bossy, she's a bossy little thing

Paul 3:08

yeah.

Zoe 3:09

I

Paul 3:09

Sassy. Yeah.

Zoe 3:10

I don't think sassy was a word back then because obviously a little

Paul 3:13

bit

Zoe 3:13

older

Paul 3:13

Yeah.

Zoe 3:13

I think certainly I had something about me, I think that probably was best channeled into leadership rather than anywhere else.

Paul 3:21

My mam might have said You were a little madam. Oh yeah i was definitely called a little madam i'm still that to be fair Oh dear Yeah. I love it. I love it. So then you got drawn to the police. Now for the vast majority of people, as I know well, haven't been a former volunteer police officer, myself as a special constable, it's a calling. what got you excited about the idea of joining the police? In what capacity did you join the police?

Zoe 3:43

So mum and dad actually met as police cadets, and so my mum was out of the job by the time I was old enough to really understand what was going on. dad did his full 30 years and actually my mum's dad was a police officer and he did his full 30 years as well. So I guess I grew up. my dad talking about stories, and I, knew that I always wanted something that was very different. I also knew that I wanted to do something that made a difference, like meaningful work was really important and I didn't want a 9 to 5 that was gonna be the same. So I actually started working for the police as a civilian with the intention of going through the recruitment process when it opened up. I did go through the recruitment process. It didn't get through. By one mark. I failed one of those psychometric tests. Ridiculous. something to do with how,

Paul 4:35

trains

Zoe 4:35

were traveling at different times and speeds and absolutely nothing to do with dealing with people. So I was very frustrated. However, I didn't ever apply again because different opportunities came up, which I took hold of. And although I never. Was actually a police officer. I did a lot of roles in my time with the police that historically had been done by police officers, so i actually had best of both worlds because you didn't have to wait to be moved into a different team. A job came up and I applied for it. So yeah, it was very fortunate that although it didn't quite pan out as I'd planned, I actually still ticked a lot of the boxes that I wanted to tick if that makes sense. It was

Paul 5:17

Yeah.

Zoe 5:17

a very different, in a very different way.

Paul 5:19

So if we look back to then at that point, where did you start to move towards being a leader in the police force?'cause obviously it wasn't straight away. You learn the ropes, you get your move, your way up but what point did you realize that you wanted to become a leader within the police force as well?

Zoe 5:35

A lot sooner than anybody expected, myself included, if we're being totally honest. I think I'd only been in about 3 years, but I had a supervisor It was just a cause of so much frustration for all of us that when a team leader role came up at a different station. I, dunno, I think this is that young person. This is the madam, the sas. Like there, there was a part of me that's I can't do any worse than this person, so let me put an application in and see what happens. And. really how I stepped into leadership. So not really because I was inspired by a wonderful leader, but actually because I was frustrated by poor leadership and thought, actually think do just as well, if not better. And actually going into that role was. Where I had an amazing leader and certainly somebody who became a role model and a mentor, and showed me actually what good leadership looks like. And so very grateful for that. And actually, I know a lot of people go into leadership because they're inspired by somebody, and mine was the opposite, but I've heard that from other people too. So

Paul 6:43

Yep. poor leadership

Zoe 6:44

has a huge impact and I think that motivated me. and also me into you can either sit and moan about it here or you can do something about it and and do something elsewhere. Which was the path I took, which was a bit of a theme, really an taker, if nothing else.

Paul 7:02

I see a lot of this with our guests on the show, and you are not the first person to have come through that sort of experience. And we had a guest on the show, he was talking about healthcare journey in a very similar way. Very poorly led, very stressful because of that poor leadership, a lot of poor choices being made, which put people at risk and lives at risk and care at risk. And her response was, rather than go down with the sinking ship, she fought to save it and became the leader herself and did things in spite of the poor leadership that she'd seen. And I think that's, when I look back to my career, it was to start with, yeah, there was probably was quite a lot of. Bitching and moaning about, oh, he's done that, or they've done that and they've done this and they haven't done this. Then it starts to become, like you say, a choice of I can either keep moaning about this or I can actually learn from the poor leadership that I'm witnessing because this is how not to do things so I can do the opposite and then I'll be winning. But I think it's hard to see that at a young age. Like it's and especially in. Policings quite a relentless, stressful role because of the constant challenges, because know two days are the sim there's no handbook for everything. Do you feel like you were trying to prove that you were a good leader to yourself, to others? Was there what fed into that leadership appetite? I think.

Zoe 8:20

You're absolutely right. There is, there's no handbook for leadership anyway, and this was back in the late 90's so there wasn't even Google. So there wasn't, not only was there not just, the information just wasn't there. So you only, you could only learn by the people that you were around to around. And I think. For me, I had to prove myself because I went in that first leadership role. The people that I was supervising, they were older, they had more experience. I think there was a lot to prove. And I was in my very early 20's I had only 3 years in the job. In its entirety. So I think there were a lot of people who were expecting me to fail. And I do like to prove people wrong. That's definitely a part of my character, which the majority of the time serves me well. But that's got me into trouble a few times, that's for sure. But I felt like I had a lot to prove. and, people were pretty vocal about it, don't blame them. I think if I'd been in a similar situation, I probably would've had something to say as well. So I knew that I had a lot to prove, but I think also that helped in a way because the expectation wasn't there. so for me, it gave me the opportunity to walk in and say, okay, talk to me. Tell me what it is that you need. What is it I can do to support you? And actually. Be very open about the fact that I knew less than them. And I

Paul 9:45

Yeah.

Zoe 9:46

that's something in leadership that I think is what makes a really good leader is somebody that is okay with saying, actually, I don't know. I think you know more than me. And being okay with that. And so I

Paul 9:57

Yeah.

Zoe 9:57

the lack of expectation, the younger age the lesser amount of time and service actually did me a bit of a favor.'cause people weren't expecting it and it meant I could say. I don't know. You tell me what's the best, what do you need me to do to help make life easier for you within the team? So I know, I think I definitely had something to prove to myself as well. I think that probably came secondary at that point.

Paul 10:22

You've moved through into leadership roles within the police and you've held some quite senior roles within Avon and Somerset Police major crime logistics and business change. Like business change doesn't sound like a big role. I know firsthand how big that is in the police force. So that's a, that's an enormous role to take on. At what point did you get involved with coaching? Was that before you left the police or was that during, or.

Zoe 10:46

Because I went into leadership at a young age and because I was a police staff, member of staff, that was. Supervising police officers, it's quite unusual. not, it's pretty common nowadays, but certainly back then, female leaders, female senior leaders and police staff leaders that had supervision. Responsibility for police officers was quite unusual, so I was asked to mentor. A couple of other people coming up through the organisation And as part of that, to support those mentoring roles, we were put on a coaching and mentoring course to give us some skills to be able to support that. So that was really the first taster. And actually I found once I'd done that course, that the coaching style of leadership really suited me. So having some tools in the toolbox to help with that definitely helped. that kind of piqued my interest with coaching and then. As police and public sector in general, if they can get you to do more than one job, then they will. And so this opportunity came up that to be self development trainer. In addition to my contracted role, and actually didn't get through the first time the opportunity was offered to somebody else, and then it came up again a year later. So I put my hat back in the ring and and doing the self-development training alongside the coaching and mentoring and alongside some of the work that I was doing in. looking for potential within the force and looking at what we had in place to help that succession plan of high performers and people that were showing that potential kind of all kind of came together. and that really is where it all started and. Interestingly, the coaching for me started more around nutrition and lifestyle because that was something that was of interest to me per of to personally at that time. And then it's just evolved then over time and became lot more than that. So i that was a long time ago, so I was doing the coaching and mentoring. Back in the 2000's it was a long time before I really stepped into coaching and took more in a way of thinking, actually, this is something I could do all of the time, rather than something that was doing, a passion project for want of a better word

Paul 13:05

Yeah. And so the bit that threw me'cause we didn't discuss in the offline meeting was whether you competed as a strongwoman as well,

Zoe 13:13

Yeah.

Paul 13:13

Not just competed, but you competed internationally, right? And. I've got friends who've been bodybuilders, male and female, who've been bodybuilders. I've got friends who are involved in CrossFit competitions now. It's all very, Hyrox and all that sort of stuff. But female powerlifting. And like, how did you get involved in that? Like where did that come from?'cause that's not quite unusual.

Zoe 13:37

Yeah, and back. I mean we're talking 10 years ago, so again, back then it, we. Females in the weight section. Back, I mean up until I, know some gyms still have female only weightlifting sections. But yeah, certainly anybody lifting heavy in the weight section and being female was definitely unusual. Certainly. Caught. Caught a few strange looks over the years. I had a personal trainer and I was part of a group where strength and conditioning was a big part of what we did. And a lot of it was for fun. It definitely. For me was about just tapping into the inner child. So we would do boot camps and you'd run

Paul 14:16

round the Yeah.

Zoe 14:17

field with somebody over your shoulder, and that just for me was a great way to switch off from work. And then somebody who I trained with said that there was an open day at a gym in Bristol. opening the gym up for women that were interested in strongmen. And I went down really just went down to keep somebody company who didn't wanna go on their own. And as we were leaving. The gym owner said that he was looking to put on a competition for women. First one, they'd been running men's competitions for years, and he said, I'm thinking to do a competition for women. Would you sign up? And actually, that year I challenged myself to say yes to opportunities that came up. So just push myself out my comfort zone a little bit. I found myself saying yes. And when you see those memes where it was like this escalated quickly it really did because the first competition was in Bristol. In the December and a year later, almost to the date I was competing at Europe's strongest woman, where just kept qualifying for the next level. It is a much. Bigger competition now in much bigger stages. But yeah, it did escalate very quickly and like you said, single parent working full time, squeezing it all in because I wanted to do it and I didn't wanna say no to these opportunities that were coming up. Yeah, escalated very quickly. Loved every minute of it. But yeah, it was definitely a challenge.

Paul 15:42

So single parent, is it multiple kids? Is it just one? Like

Zoe 15:46

Just

Paul 15:47

just one? And how old were they when you were doing all of this?

Zoe 15:50

So he's 23 now. So he was just going into secondary school at that time.

Paul 15:57

What was his thoughts on that? Because I'd imagine that a young teen

Zoe 16:00

He was really supportive. Really supportive. To be honest, a lot of it was quite separate. So he plays basketball, so he's also very sporty So I think there were elements of, I was going to the gym, he was going to practice and going to training. That actually worked really

Paul 16:14

well Yeah. because.

Zoe 16:15

There was an element of role modeling in there of, I didn't wanna go. And it was cold and it was dark and there were times where he didn't wanna go'cause he was tired and he was grumpy. And it we would have those conversations of yeah, come on let's just go and get this done and then we can chill for a couple of days. So I don't think. At point, he really clocked as to how serious it had all got. And then he came to watch me at Britain's Strongest Woman. That was the first competition he came to which was when I qualified for Europe's. And it was really nice to have him there. And then he came to Europe's strongest women as well. And I think that's when. he how it works

Paul 16:55

wow. Yeah.

Zoe 16:56

i think there where times where, especially when I was in those top level competitions where I think there was probably a little bit of embarrassment on his part with his mates of, his mam's walking around hench, I think was the word that was used on your mam's really hench. But there we go. I think as parents, we're supposed to embarrass our kids somehow, aren't we? That's not the worst way to do it.

Paul 17:17

when you're walking past random objects thinking, yeah, I could lift that. I could lift you. I could lift you on that. I could.

Zoe 17:24

Yeah, so I mean

Paul 17:25

I love it.

Zoe 17:26

that element. And then sitting in meetings, in work, and obviously at that point I was in senior leadership, so I'm sitting in meetings, in work dressed in corporate wear, and yet I've got bruises. On my arms, a cut on my chin where I've knocked something and there were, I remember in one meeting I took my cardigan off and the guy sitting next to me went, can you put that back on? That's that embarrassing. You're making me feel really tiny. So there, was an element of that, and I think

Paul 17:54

I love it.

Zoe 17:55

there were a lot of comments made. All with, good intention. It was it, but I, it definitely. Was not the norm. I think nowadays with Hyrox rocks and CrossFit, lifting is a lot more common, which is great to see. But yeah, certainly back. Certainly back then it was a bit different.

Paul 18:49

Wow. I see. This is what I love this podcast for, right? Like people, like we come in and it's like we, we've got this obvious track to go down, but let's just go off at this tangent and find out all about this. And I love that. I love that. We should, we can share those conversations. So then so we've got strongwoman competitions, we've got single parents, and we've got quite a high flying police career. When did that come to an end?

Zoe 19:13

They decided for me, so

Paul 19:15

as happens?

Zoe 19:16

I had the news. 2017 I was made redundant. So the news came in January, a complete shock. working in business change, there were other conversations going on that I wasn't party to. I thought the role was secure for another two years because of the program that I was working on. However, decisions had been made to split the role that I was in and put the higher level into a police officer's role and the lower level into a more junior and therefore more cost effective role. So I wasn't expecting it. It came completely out of the blue and it was actually my 20th year. So for anyone. that or if you don't know anything about policing, there's a 20 year long service, good conduct, which is a milestone for a lot of us that work in the organisation for a long period of time. I was gutted like it, we talk about identity, I said my parents were in the police, it was 20 years, I'd never really worked for anyone else. And I was like, what do I do? What do I need to go and find work elsewhere? Single parent only my income, so I had to look at the options and I think. Very naively, I thought that starting a business would be the easier of the two, rather than going through a recruitment process for more leadership positions. I'm quite glad that I had that naivety because it was definitely the right decision, and I've loved, I'm in year 9 now. I've absolutely loved running the business, but I didn't know anything. I knew nothing at, I knew nothing at all. And I think if I knew then what I knew now, what I know now. Probably would've made a very different decision. So I actually think my naivety really did me a favor, but I wanted to. Look at all of the things that I'd enjoyed doing. There were so many aspects of the job that I absolutely loved. I wasn't ready to go. I'll be totally honest, I wasn't ready to go. But I'd started to look at coaching and it was a long, like on my radar of a longer term thing that I would like to do. They just moved the timeline forward for me and force my hand a little bit to say okay just get it done. But at the, at that point, the business was. Registered, I think at that point. And I had a logo and I had a Facebook page, which had my mum and sister on it. That was literally it. And then I had my notice period where I was like okay, let's just watch some HMRC inland revenue webinars. Let's look to see what, how do you, how does one run a business? And off we go. And that's

Paul 21:53

I am,

Zoe 21:54

pretty

Paul 21:54

I'm laughing'cause the pain's still quite fresh for me, right? Like you are 9 years in, I've just, we're finishing now a third year coming up now. So we're I'd like to think I'm over the hump of a lot of it, but Yeah. That naivety bit Yeah. Really rings true for, and I'm sure it does for everyone,

Zoe 22:09

Yeah.

Paul 22:10

Like when you first start your own business, there's so many hats that you need to wear. Imposter syndrome's probably one of the bigger inner voices at that point in time. How did you deal with that? zoe

Zoe 22:20

Imposter syndrome has probably crept up in different ways over the years and that being able to challenge that thinking, I think especially. we're being honest, like being a young female senior leader, police staff. The imposter syndromes quite often was influenced by what other people were saying rather than an internal thing coming through. I always felt like I had to prove myself. I always felt like people were trying to catch me out. That's not fair.'cause I think actually I was really supported, like on the whole, I was really supported. There were definitely a few individuals that perhaps weren't as supportive, but actually on the whole, I did feel very supported. And I think that imposter syndrome, that feeling the need to prove when people talk about, oh, they're only in that job'cause they've ticked, they tick a box and they're trying to increase visibility of women in senior leadership and all the rest of it. And I think there's a part of you that knows that you are more than capable and you've definitely earned your right to be in the room. That still, and there's that little niggling doubt, but actually I think sometimes that works as a positive because it. Keeps your self awareness high you are challenging yourself and you are questioning like, okay, how did I do that? Could I have done that any differently? How can I be better? So I think whilst there were elements of it there, I actually think that I was able to use that to my advantage and just getting better, think imposter syndrome, that fear of being found out. That wasn't there in quite the strictest sense of imposter syndrome, but feeling like I had to prove myself was definitely always there and still is. But I use as something that helps me to keep questioning how can I be better, I don't think there's a ceiling for that. Yeah. Do you

Paul 24:15

Yeah

Zoe 24:16

sense.

Paul 24:17

I can see. I can see the power of framing it in that way.'cause I think that's the important thing to recognise that there's, we, can talk about the internal board of directors lot, lots of people talk about that now. And it's whilst every voice in there has a seat at the table. Although we perceive things like fear and anxiety and imposter syndrome as negative things, actually they're there to serve a purpose a lot of the time, not all the time. So there to serve a purpose and actually, things like imposter syndrome can serve to help keep you at the very peak of your game, whether,

Zoe 24:46

And

Paul 24:46

That's should be the case or it's a different matter, but.

Zoe 24:49

I think we've all worked with somebody who could do with a little dash of imposter syndrome.

Paul 24:54

So then you've developed the I am saying this right, the PIIPS framework. What's what's the origin of that? What, how did you base that on.

Zoe 25:01

So that actually came off the back of somebody asking me the question in a podcast quite a couple of years ago now. So I was working out in Cyprus and was doing a podcast with somebody over in the States, and he asked the question, he's like, how did you make all of this happen? Is one thing to be a senior leader? Another thing to be a single raise. Raising a teenager as a single parent, you did both of those at the same time, and then you added in training and competing, like how did you make all of that happen I'll be honest. The answer I gave was, I don't know. I just did you just, you got up you had to be organized, you had to have good time management. You had to think ahead of what needed to be done. You had to choose what the priorities were, what you suggest to what you said no to. I didn't really think about it at the time. I just did it. and then I went for a walk afterwards and as I was walking it through, walking through. Out in the hills in Cyprus. And I was like there must be more to it than that because I've done it over so many different times in my life where people have said to me, how do you do it? Like, how do you make all of that happen? How do you look like you're compromising or sacrificing? You are doing it all. Like how do you make that work? And that's really where I sat down and I thought, okay. What have I done on each of these occasions? What's the difference that makes the difference? What's the common themes? And then that's where the PIIPS framework came up. So firstly, to plan and I'm definitely not somebody who. Plans particularly well I'm too quick to just oh, that's good enough. Let's just jump in and take

Paul 26:41

Yep.

Zoe 26:41

But the planning is really important, being very clear on your intentions. Like, why am I doing this? Why is this important? What's the compelling purpose behind it? The identity? Who do I need to be if I'm gonna make this happen, if I'm gonna do a really good job with this, if I'm gonna be successful with this, who do I need to be? Performance. Okay. How do I need to, what do I need to do to perform at a high level? these are all things that I've looked at now, ready for the year ahead and structure, if I want all of these things to happen. What structure needs to be in place to enable all of those things to happen? And most of the time, especially conversations with clients. Most people have elements of all 5 pillars. It's, for me, the framework is around looking at all of those 5 pillars and piecing them together and making sure that all 5 pillars are strong. And that for me is the difference that makes the difference for clients that then go on to make everything happen. And the ones that are able to do it all and work past the overwhelm, being able to. achieve what they want to achieve. I think you mentioned at the beginning, for success, that feels as good as it looks. And there's a lot of people that are very successful on paper, who are overwhelmed, who are burned out, who are working in roles that don't align with their values. Then missing that sense of purpose, that's not what I want for people. I think if you, we get one run at this life, and we can definitely squeeze a hell of a lot into it. We just need to make make sure that we're saying yes to the right things and saying no to the things that don't align, and then we just need to plan and make it happen.

Paul 28:30

And I think that's something I see in more experienced business owners who've been doing what they do for some time. Is you start to realise that more and more the things that you have a vision to achieve and how you enjoy helping people becomes more important than finding new clients. And the interesting thing that's contrary to logic really, is that the less time you spend on trying to find new clients and just enjoy what you are doing, the more clients find you. In a lot of B2B and service based businesses especially. And I'm certainly finding that much more as I've, as I'm moving on. I see a lot of new business owners who are terrified of their pipeline. They know exactly how many opportunities are in their pipeline and they've got to chase them down. And we've got to find, I've gotta find a new channel to find some, and it's, and whenever I speak to somebody who's been doing their role more than 5 or 6 years. They're all very calm about it all. It's very, yes I'll need to get some new clients this year. I'm going to find some. And they just know that they'll do it. I love that difference in, perspective and attitude. And so you work with leaders that are either worried about or are experiencing overwhelm and burnout and fatigue and all of those things that go hand in hand with each other. What's. What's often the breaking point? What's the point where they come to you? What changes for them?

Zoe 29:55

I think it's that element. It is different on a surface level. It's different for all of them, but I think on an internal level it's the. I am, they're losing part of themselves in the process. And so I work with a lot of people who are impact driven rather than income driven. I think, police history, public sector, but actually, a lot of people who I work with it. They're, they are driven by impact means that they are giving so much to everybody else, that they're either losing themselves in the process or they're losing time and energy for themselves in the process. They're, they find it very hard to say no. They very, they find it very hard to boundary. They find it very hard not to show up and do all of the things for all of the people all of the time. And so that means they end up working late. They end up working weekends and they go off on holiday, but they're worrying about everybody that's back at home or they're carrying the mental load for everybody within their team. So it's the impact drive that is out of. Balance. And so it's that element of helping them to see that they can still be impact driven and they can still make huge impact, but they don't need to be working long hours and 7 days a week. To be able to do that and actually being more efficient, being more effective, makes you a better leader and actually going home on time and taking some time off. forces you to be a better leader in the time that you have, rather than expanding that time and giving all of your energy. So final straw is often they're not feeling present at home. Either somebody has said something or it's the cause of frustration and conflict outside of work, but then not having that work and life balance. And I know that's always a huge debate, isn't it? And people tell you, some people will say you can't have work and a life balance. it doesn't mean it's a 50 50 balance. It might be 80 20, it might be 2080. Ultimately, you have to decide where where your time and energy goes, but there needs to be a pot there for you as well. So there might be a pot there for children, partner work, but there also needs to be a pot there for you well. So I think that the internal element is that they're not present. Anymore. So they're not present at work and they're not present at home. They're trying to split themselves into two different places. Yeah,

Paul 32:30

I hear that. I hear that. And so I guess at a time that's quite poignant in the year, we've just come back from Christmas and New Year and everybody should be going back to work feeling refreshed and ready to go. And we both know there's a lot of people who just aren't feeling that. So you talk there about taking the week off with zero work and zero guilt. I know that's your new your new package, your new program as such. What's the first step on that people can take before they even come to you, that will help them prepare for their next week off where they can do it right.

Zoe 33:02

The first step is get really clear on what reality is because we're often very much guided by what we think and what we feel, and that's not always what is true. I created actually the first week of the program that I lead is a time audit and just getting really clear on where your time is actually going, whether that's in your workplace or as a business owner. And I've actually put a workbook together, which is the free download on the website. So everyone's welcome to go and help themselves to that, but we need to be really clear on what reality is and where we think our time is going or where the time is actually going because. once we can start to make those decisions of, okay, where do I want my time to go? What do I wanna pull back on? What do I want to give more to? Then we can start to make different decisions and we can ask ourselves better questions around how do we make that happen? But some people are very clear as to what the problem is and where they want to get to, what they want life to look like. Some people don't have that clarity. So I think once we get really clear on what our reality is. then the next step then is what do I wanna keep and what do I want to change? And so the first step is just get really clear on what is reality rather than how things feel. Because how things feel isn't always how it actually is.

Paul 34:28

That makes total sense. And what we'll do is I'll, if you can send me the link for that pack, then I'll make sure that goes in the show notes for anybody who's interested. And obviously if you do want to know more about how that process works or any of the things that we've talked about today, please do feel free to reach out to Zoë. We'll put a contact details in the show notes so you can reach out directly.

Zoe 34:48

That it.

Paul 34:49

Zoe, thank you very much for being an amazing guest on the show. Thoroughly enjoyed your story. Thank you.

Zoe 34:55

Thank you. Great questions too, and thanks for the opportunity to share the story. It's been good to chat.

Paul 35:00

No problem. And thank you at home as ever for watching or listening along. Hope you've enjoyed today's story, and we will see you next week on Marketpulse pros and pioneers.