No One Gets to Drive This But You with Terri Brown: Grief Series Ep. 5

In this episode of the Inner Spark Grief Series, I sit down with Terri Brown, an LSCSW psychotherapist with 39 years of experience in death and dying, critical incident response, and grief counseling — including work with Kroger's critical incident teams and 12 years serving soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan with the Department of Defense.

Terri has personally walked alongside me through my own journey, and in this conversation we get into why grief is so rarely talked about — and why that silence leaves so many people feeling alone in it.

We talk about:

• Terri's beach metaphor for grief — the waves that lap gently at your feet, and the ones that swamp you without warning
• Why "I'm so sorry for your loss" isn't the comfort we think it is, and what to say instead
• The "grief grocery bag" — a simple, tangible way to show up for someone grieving
• Why there's no timeline, no order, and no wrong way to grieve — even 20 years later
• What happens after the casseroles stop and everyone goes home
• How to actually mean it when you say "I'm here for you"
• Why grief and joy aren't opposites — and how humor becomes part of healing
• Terri's own story about her dad, and the moment they still laugh about today

A line worth sitting with: "This is your process. This is your journey, and it's your timeline. No one gets to drive this but you."

If this episode brought something up for you, please know — grief doesn't need to be earned, explained, or timed. You're allowed to be exactly where you are.

If you found something that sparked you, share it with a friend who needs to hear it today.

You can find me at:
https://www.instagram.com/cataton/
https://www.facebook.com/casey.taton/

You can find what sparks me at:
https://www.facebook.com/share/g/1AgeRtyojY/
https://www.instagram.com/lmbdcelebrations/

Music by: Jason and Ashley Scheufler
Artwork by:  https://www.instagram.com/graphx_ink/

Transcript

0:01

A therapist of 39 years just told me grief is like walking on a beach, and the wave that swamps you doesn't ask permission Hey, friends. Welcome to the Inner Spark Podcast. I'm your host, Casey Peyton. If you're looking to hear stories of transformation and personal growth, this podcast is for you. My guest and I will be sharing those sparking moments that has changed them into living a more fulfilling, authentic life. I'm so excited for you to hear each unique story. So sit back, relax, and let's get started. Hey friend. Welcome back to the Enter Spark podcast. I'm your host, Casey Taton. This is the series on grief, and today I have a very special guest with me, Terry Brown. I am gonna read you her credentials. She is an L-S-C-C-S-W psychotherapist for 39 years. She has lots of extensive training and experience with treating death and dying issues. She has also helped me through lots of my journey. She is actually, a counselor, I always talk about how amazing counselors are and how. I think there's no judgment, shame that everybody should have a counselor. And so I ask her to come on and talk about grief with us today because I've got to experience some of her beautiful work that she is just openheartedly. Just her gift in this world is just beautiful. And so thank you, Terry for being who you are and welcome. Well, thank you for having me, Casey. It's a privilege to be here. Do you want to tell them anymore about your, big credentials. You, you have a big impact. You've done a lot in this world. Can you give them a little overview? Sure. So I've practiced for about 39 years. I've practiced, in private practice for probably the last 25. I also, sit on several critical incident teams, and that. Really, makes up, uh, I'll give you an example of what that comprises. I do some work for the Kroger company and so if there's an armed robbery or an employee death, then I will go into the store for a day or two and talk with the employees about how that has impacted them. Giving them an outlet to be able to talk with someone privately. So that's part of the critical incident there. And I also serve, I served for about 12 years on a, critical incident team for the Department of Defense. And. Did a lot of work with soldiers coming, uh, out of Iraq and Afghanistan in that war theater, and that was very, uh, rewarding work. Um, it was, it was a tough 12 years. I traveled a lot. And one year I did. I was gone 32 weekends in one year. So, so that was, uh, but it was very rewarding because while I wasn't in the military, I felt like I could contribute and um, and did something for the military people who were, fighting for our freedom. Yeah. Thank you. I know you've touched so many and you're just such a blessing. That's why I wanted to bring you on, during this series. The main reason I wanna do it, I know you and I have chatted about this before about grief, the different stages of grief and how it's just not overall talked about in our world, and so many feel so alone with. Going through different things that they don't feel like they can share, who to share 'em with, how to share 'em with. And I think that we've made it such a thing where people don't know how to even respond to someone who does then choose to share it. And so I really wanna give people the awareness that everybody experiences grief in their life at some point. And there's all different kinds it weighs heavy on my heart that there's so much that we could do just to allow people the space to even be aware of what grief is and then be okay talking about it. I have a question for you. If you're good answering How would you explain grief to somebody. What I often say to people is that grief is a process and a journey. I often say to patients that. Grief is very much like walking along the beach of the ocean and keeping in mind that the ocean can be very calm and it can also be pretty raging and pretty powerful. So often when you're walking along the beach, sometimes the waves are just kinda lapping at your feet and I. It doesn't, you know, feel bad or scary, but sometimes a giant wave will swamp you and it shocks you and it scares you, and you don't really know where it came from. And I use that analogy because. I truly believe that that is how people often experience grief. I remember one time a patient saying to me that she was in the grocery store and she was almost done with her shopping, and she got swamped by a big grief wave and she just left her cart and went home and came back the next day. Um, which I think is. That's really good insight to be able to recognize what's happening. And a lot of times people don't, and I harken that back to we haven't been very well trained in grief. If we look at it from, why don't we teach kids? About grief or death and dying in the school system. A lot of teachers will say, well, we don't have time for that, and that's probably accurate that our teachers don't have time for that. Although I really think that or not doing any service to our youth. Most youth get their first experience with death and dying when like a grandparent or a great grandparent passes, and then it really becomes a catastrophe if they lose a sibling or they lose a parent Aren. Um, it's so much more difficult than. I love how you just summarized it about the beach because I could feel the different times grief has come in my life and it is like that. You just, you don't know when it's gonna hit. And just the awareness of being able to be aware that this is here, it's happening to me. And, just being able to calm yourself down, walk away, and then. Be able to handle it. And I think that that's huge. And I think what you just said about kids is so powerful because you know the work I do with the kids in the hospital and losing kids, it's something that I knew would happen, but I don't think I really knew it was going to happen. I didn't wanna feel, I didn't wanna see it was going to happen and. Now that I have more experience with it, it's it's never okay. Like, I don't wanna say dying is okay, but the truth is we're all here to live and die. And, when it happens to somebody unexpected, a tragedy, losing a kid, it's never, okay. There's never the right words to say. I feel like we don't know the things to say or what to do to support someone going through that. And I've been learning that as I go through this of children also don't know. We teach them happy, we teach them joy, we teach 'em, they're supposed to smile. And then when a tragedy happens, and there's grief involved. We don't teach them that they can share their feelings about crying. Besides, you know what sadness is, what grief is, what Crying all the feeling, all the emotions. And we just tend to focus on the higher emotions. Like you can be mad and you can be happy, but, and I think it would help through this whole world a favor if just even parents could make it more normal. If we could make it a normal conversation to talk about. Grief comes in so many ways. Indeed, it does. Losing a job, losing, an animal, it could be moving grieving, like anything you're going through. And so then when it, normally, I think the big ways it affects us is when someone dies, like you said, I don't even know when you say that. How do you get people to recognize when someone would come to you? Like you've dealt with all these people. And they're experiencing this, but yet at some point they may not know it's grief. Are there stages or process? And that's true. That's, that's really a good point because sometimes. People do have a difficult time recognizing and identifying their feelings, and so it's helpful if, especially if a therapist or counselor can kind of step in and say, you know, this is about. Grief that this is grief. And I also think that if that person comes from a family or a background of where grief really wasn't talked about or it wasn't okay to talk about, then they may have just, bottled it up and stuffed it. And they don't recognize it for what it is. Yeah. Do you have a process that you. Suggest to people to navigate their way through this. I always like to find out where people are. One thing that continues to just amaze me is I will often have people come in and they will say, well, my husband died a year ago, and my friends are telling me that I just need to move on. Or perhaps they've lost a child and, maybe a friend has said, you should have another child. I always like to get sort of a baseline of where they are. I've had people come into my office before and they lost somebody 20 years ago, and they are still on square one, but what I always say to people is. This is your process. This is your journey, and it's your timeline. No one gets to drive this but you, because I think people need permission to process their grief in whatever. Timeframe that they need. Some people like to do it, like some people like to, you know, get rid of all the clothes and all the stuff, and some people don't. They find a, a great deal of comfort, especially with children. Often we see that. Um, you know, parents will keep the child's room the very same for a very long time, but that provides them comfort of, you know, reminding them of when the child was there. So I always kinda like to get that baseline of where people are at and then we kind of go from there. This might be a good place to kind of segue in is that, while Elizabeth Kubler Ross was certainly a pioneer in the death and dying field, she was very adamant about there being certain stages of grief, but also that people went through. Stages in a certain order. And what we now know more than ever is that people often can be in several stages at the same time, and they can vacillate back and forth. And it doesn't always go according to a plan. Giving people that permission, because there's still a lot of literature and information out there that talks about the stages of grief, which is accurate and correct, but, there really isn't a lot out there about, how to navigate all that. Yes. I love that you just brought that up because. So many times when I've talked to people about grief, they're like, but I should be here, and I should have, like, right. They just assume that they should have already gone through these phases, and yet they are years out and they're, they've never really dealt with any of it. And so it's really the permission to say you're allowed to fill your feelings and wherever you're at is okay. Like there is no timeline of. You may do it in a week or a day and move on and be fine. Where it may take someone 20 years, it may be with them for the rest of their life, but they just know when it's coming in and the awareness around it. Well, and we have really changed the landscape of, you know, for many, many years our society has had great traditions around death. And it used to be that we had very traditional funerals and they were really a very, somber and sad time kind of for everyone. And we have, gradually kind of segued. Into more celebrations of life. But I often caution people about, because one of the things that happens is a person dies and then, the people that are left behind, they're kind of surrounded by a lot of people, relatives, friends, lots of people coming in, bringing food, um, you know, wanting to talk to them. And then, you know, you have a big celebration of life. And that can be, I think that can be a very healing thing. But then as we often talk about, what happens after that is everybody goes home. Yes. And that's when the person is really left alone. Yeah. And they face that difficulty. Yes. That's right. Yeah. So I think that we're often surrounded by all the people when everything happens and then when people leave, they're like, oh, they were doing good. They seem to be doing okay. And they were in a way entertaining and their mind was busy. And so it's were they okay? Do you know that they were okay? And people don't know the right things to say either. I don't even know how to make that a normal thing of, I've tried to tell people like, right, right. When someone says, I'm sorry. Like they'll say. About their loss or they're lost and it's like they're not lost. The person's not lost. Not lost, died. Yeah. Don't say they're lost. Like we know where they are. Right. And if you think about that, we have that sort of rote, thing that we say of, I'm so sorry for your loss. Yes. You know, that just, that really kinda gets me because, you are absolutely correct. The person has not lost, the person died. If you go up to someone and say, I am so sorry that your mother died. It does two things. It is super good for both of you because the person you're saying it to, hears the words and you are actually saying the words. What happened? You are saying the person died. Not that the person is lost. I often think about, many years ago I saw a little boy and he lost his mom and lost. There we go with that wording. His mom died. My bad. There. His mother died and at the funeral a. A woman came up to him and said, well, you know, your mother's in heaven, and God needed her more than you did. He needed an angel and he stomped on her foot. So, so when he got brought into his therapy session, his aunt, who he was living with said, you know, you need to tell Mrs. Brown what happened at the funeral and you know. First of all, a small child can't understand, that. And it's, I think a much better thing to say would be, I'm so very sorry that your mommy died. We all miss her. Yes. But again, that comes Casey from, we're not trained. Yeah, we're not trained. Many people are trained to just not say anything at all. Yes. And so we're out there scrambling for the right words when we don't even have a clue what the right words are. And I think that kind of goes into, you know, so many people want to do something for someone who has had a loved one that has died so. Often people are, you know, we still have that tradition of taking people casserole. Yes. And I think most of those casserole get thrown in the freezer and maybe later tossed out. When I was at a conference, working on my grief and loss certification, someone suggested the grief grocery bag, and I really thought this was a great idea. Go to the grocery store, fill up a grocery bag with chips, candy crackers, cheese in a can, ice cream, and if you wanna stick a card on the bag, that's good too. Hand it to the person and leave because people need comfort food. If they're going to eat it all, they need things that, I'm sure a health expert wouldn't agree that it's good for them, but they need comfort food. Because they need all the comfort that they can get. But here we are baking our, great funeral casseroles, and I, yeah, I love that idea. I think that what a gift when you're in those situations, I remember asking my mom like, when is the last time you ate? Hmm. Like ate anything. Like I don't even care if you ate sugar, like when is the last time you ate anything? Let's be honest, we don't feel like sitting down and having a steak when we're no going through this. And so just having something they can easy grab Sure. And comfort food like. Right. They're going through the process and there's a reason why there's comfort things we all do when we're going through phases. One thing I think, that we have learned is that, and I'm not against flowers, but. I think a lot of people are saying before they die that, you know, I don't want people spending a bunch of money on flowers that are just gonna die. I want people donating to a specific cause, and I really like that a lot because it honors the person that died. It honors their wishes, about something that was meaningful and important to them and helps, I think, kinda leave their legacy. Yes. Flowers are beautiful, but they are, they are, they're going to die. Or a family member who's not feeling the best is now going to be. Forced to take care of these flowers, plants. And I've watched people like a whole room, get full of flowers and you're like, who's gonna take all those flowers home? And what, what's gonna happen to them in a day? Like they may look beautiful in here. And if that's a person's wish to have a room of flowers, that's great. But I don't think so many now these days you don't need to send flowers. There's a way to leave, a legacy. Mm-hmm. And their name. That means something important to them. What did they love? What did they value? Right. Right. Yeah. I think, of course, it's so much more difficult when a child dies because not only do we not have any training for that, it really goes against that unwritten rule that your kids are not supposed to die before you do, and you're never supposed to have to bury your own child. So I think that. Those are really unchartered waters. And oftentimes, and I'm sure you know much more about this than I do, oftentimes there's a lot more, it's a much more intensive fight. If somebody's 96 and they're not doing well, it's much more likely that we're gonna call in hospice and, we're going to let them die peacefully. And say that they lived a good life with children. We never give up hope. Ever. So it's very difficult for people to join that journey. That journey of when the child is in the process of dying. It is, I believe it is far too painful for people. For people who have children of their own. It's too close to home. I also believe that there are people who, and I don't know that this is actually a conscious thought, but there are people who can't get close to it because it feels like it might be catching. Yeah. You know, if I'm too close to this, then something bad will happen to me or my child. And, that's that person's. Natural response to something so horrible. Yes, I agree with what you just said is the thoughts that come through other people's minds. I had this problem talking about on our party Facebook page. And I really struggled with it and that's why I said I'm gonna make a podcast about this. Because I was like, how do I tell these people? We're doing parties for these children that are struggling, going through all different kinds of experiences. And at the same time, over the holidays, we had at least five of five families that were dealing with hospice. And I was like. I stopped posting in my own Facebook community for the parties and stopped telling people about what we were doing because I didn't know the right words to say, and I was like, I'm gonna offend somebody. This is gonna make somebody mad. But the truth was, is we were creating experiences for where that family was. And if that kid was still active, if they could get out then go to the movies, we were giving them movie tickets, go experience this. If they could maybe play cards or they had a favorite meal, like maybe they needed to order in food, the kid could still eat it. We were individualizing it to wherever the kid in the family was. We had a kid that. Was to the very end stages and was not eating, not doing anything, but the family asked for food for themselves. They didn't wanna cook. They didn't wanna think. And it was like, I was like, can you be specific? What, where do you like, do you want fast food? And they were able to say just some Chick-fil-A would be great, some little nuggets. We have so little bit of something to grab and eat. We don't have to sit down and like eat, we can choose to if we want to, but. We also don't have to, and we just have it available. And we also looked at the sibling and said, has anyone done anything for the sibling? And it was like, no, no one's really, they're kind of just going through the process too, and their own little mind. And we don't even want know what's going through, A little mind looking at their sibling dying. And so we took the sibling a gift to let them know, because everyone's showering, the Child that's passing away and not saying, oh, your sister is going to be the one here, left here, and still have all these thoughts and emotions going through their head. And we took a gift for the sister and I didn't know how to tell people on the party page. That we were doing that I was like, this is gonna make what this good thing we're doing bad. And I had talked to people about it and some people were like, I don't wanna hear about it. I don't wanna hear about it. And so I was like, whoa, I can't even talk about like, we're doing something good. Like these are the last memories. Because I do have experiences where years later now they look back and they're like, thank you for giving my daughter her last 16th birthday. They didn't know at the time it was gonna be her last birthday. Neither did we. That seemed to be okay. Just struggling a little bit. And you know, that was her last birthday. And the last birthday they get to remember with their daughter and now they can reach out to us and say, thank you for that moment. And so it's a little bit easier to say that. Thank you for that moment now. But when it's happening, it's harder to tell the story of we have this family that needs this. And some people are very willing and they're like, okay, what can we do? Right? How can we support them? And then there's the people who are like, I don't wanna hear about it. Like your kid is not going to get, it's not a cold or something. Right? It's not contagious. But think about that. If you haven't been trained to talk about it, then yes. It's too frightening, you know, it's catastrophic. And you don't wanna get close to it because you don't know what to do with it. You don't know how to process it. Um, and certainly, I mean, you know, take a look at our world, bad things happen every day all the time. Mm-hmm. Um, but you know, I also often say to people, you know, watch how much news you're watching because we have to be careful about. What we exposed ourselves to. So there are people who simply do not have, the, tools, and they just don't have that experience and, you know, ability to face something that is so frightening and so scary. Yes. All the things I'm like, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. All things. It is scary and for me it's like, how can I support you? And I usually say to them, I'm here if you need anything, but I think there's a catch when you say that to people, when I say that, I'm opening myself up to tell them I'm here to listen. And I've learned that going through this. I'm here to listen to what you have to say. If you want to talk, I'm here for that. If you don't, I'm just here to like maybe drop something off to you. Mm-hmm. Or I'm just here to reach out and say, I'm acknowledging what's happening and I'm holding space for you if you need that. And I don't think that people realize, I have people that wanna ask. Did they do this? Did they try this is this? And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Those things don't matter. We separate ourselves from the situation and we say, how can we be of support? Right. Right. And, and so are, you're right. Our, our PAT response is, well, if you need anything, let me know. Mm-hmm. You know, as fast as we can say that and get outta there. Yeah. Right. And run. Yeah. And so if you really want to help, you have to let the person know that, I am available and I am willing to take this journey with you. I know it won't be easy. I know it could get ugly. But I'm willing to take the journey. So if you really let people know, then they hear that very differently. They hear that as, oh, wow, I could call this person if I really needed to. I could call this person. Because sometimes when somebody's going through a really tough time, they don't need someone to, have an in-depth conversation. They might need somebody to just call and talk about the weather or Hey, I saw this funny thing on TV and thought about you, or, just something that is, since what they're going through is definitely off the charts in terms of normal, they just need some normal talk. Yes. Those are powerful points of. We don't have to dismiss it, what's going on? And you can also kind of, if you truly know a person, you can kind of gauge where a person is at if, oh, sure. I think it's being open to knowing the person and then also not running away if you say, I'm gonna be there because people say, I'm here for you if you need anything. And then they're out the door. Right. They're just saying it to be nice. So I think it's a public announcement, like if you're saying it to be nice, please stop saying those things. If you really mean it with sincere, if you really wanna just sit with someone, and I say you set with no judgment, you set with listening ears of no judgment and support if someone asks you to sit with them. If that's too hard, then I think it's much better to say to the person, here's what I can do. I can do this and I can do this, and, I just can't do that. But then you're letting them know very clearly, this is what I can do. I think that's good. That's good for both parties. Yeah. I think it allows people to be able to know, I can ask this person and that person is not comfortable. And when you're sitting in an odd situation, uncomfortable, odd for you, whatever's going through your head, it's not making them any better because everybody can feel tension. Sure, sure. So maybe they need someone to cry with. Maybe they need someone to laugh with. But wherever they're at, just, some people don't like hospitals, they don't. Right, right. That's fine. Like that's acceptable to not want to be there. It's acceptable to say, I don't know what to say, to have your own feelings, but you can support and help in other ways. Well, sure, sure. That's what makes your organization so great because you can be a liaison between people who might not like to go to the hospital. Yeah. Yeah. So many emotions and feelings, and I just wanna remind people that there's no instant fix for grief, no, but I do think everybody should be more aware to talk about it, to acknowledge it, and to say just hold space. If you can't, if you're not able to hold space for somebody else, that's fine. Don't offer it. I just think the awareness around it, do you have any suggestions on how we bring a more awareness to it or how we even know that someone's going through grief maybe? I certainly think that. Sometimes there are some obvious signs, but often what we see in someone who is sort of, encompassed by grief is they're depressed, they're anxious. They might not wanna leave their house. They used to hang out with people and now they don't. They turned down invitations to hang out with their friends. And I think it's really important, for people to say to the person, Hey, I've noticed these things and can you tell me what, what's going on? What's going on? That would be the first question, and I think the second would be, what can I do to help? And to always offer, do you think maybe you need to talk to somebody? And we have the Good Grief support group. We have a wonderful organization for children that are grieving. It's either, is it two trees or three trees? I'm never sure. I think they may have changed their name actually. Mm-hmm. But we have really good resources in Wichita. Yeah. Yeah. And I would hope that people would, you know, take advantage of that. Some of the larger churches even have their own grief support groups. So there are certainly things out there. Sometimes I think that, everybody always talks about having an intervention. If you have a really good friend that you're worried about, you know, go over to their house and say, um, you know. Get a pair of socks and shoes on because we're going Yeah. Be insistent. Yes. And kind of make something happen. But I think that it's fully easy for people that are grieving to stay in a darker place. And not to resurface. And I think they often think, why would anyone want to share in this with me? Because they just feel so bad and they feel so terrible. I like how you said, why would anyone wanna share in this with me? Because I think that we put. The word shame comes with grief sometimes, or embarrassment or judgment of what people may think, and I think we would all be better off in life if we could let go of the judgment around it and help someone who is really hurting. We don't judge a person for saying like, you're smiling too much. Smiling is contagious. Right? Right. So, I mean, there is a ladder of feelings and emotions, but when someone needs support, I don't think there shouldn't be any. If you wanna have your own judgment, keep it to yourself. But the main focus is how much do you love that person? And we wanna keep people down here alive and happy and thriving because. It can be a very lonely place. Dealing with these things by yourself and then being afraid to call someone and say, I'm, people often say, I'm okay. Right. Again, that's a very pat response. How are you doing? I'm fine. I'm okay. Yeah. Except they're not. Yes. And people wonder, well, why wouldn't they just be honest and tell me. Mm-hmm. Because for the most part, we don't really think that people wanna hear it. Yes. So we keep it to ourselves or we perceive that somehow we're weak. And we put those high expectations on ourselves of. You know, well, I've, I've gotta do better. I've gotta do better. I see people who lost a loved one a long, long, long time ago, and they're still, they might be right smack in the middle of their grief. And I always say to them, they always ask me, well, how do you think I'm doing? And I always have the same response. Well, I think you're right where you need to be. Because your grief process is your own. It doesn't belong to anybody else. Nobody else gets to tell you how to do it. Nobody else gets to say, this is the timetable. And some people truly do. They truly do. Grieve forever. And we even see sometimes where one spouse dies and very quickly the other spouse dies. Yeah. Because their grief is just so intense. And as you know, people are tremendously powerful about when they die. Yes. Very strong feelings on that one. Yes. Yeah. Been been through that, right? Haven't, yeah, I think, haven't we all? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I just thank you for coming on and saying what you said. And thank you for all your service that you've done. As I've been working myself through this, and obviously I've come to you and said, I don't know what to do. As things have come up with my own family, my own life, my own feelings, or even things that have happened, 10 years ago, even with like my health journey on moving through. That is a grief process too of Absolutely. Yeah. And sometimes you don't know how to explain when those things hit you, but I think it's just really important to make sure that it's not embarrassment to say that I need help and right. I am like the one person that says everybody should have a counselor. Everybody should have someone besides their family that they talk to with no judgment that can look you in the eye and honestly give you feedback. Right. I think for the most part it's really not gonna hurt you. And hopefully will only help you. And that's a good point about the health issues. You know, I've spent many years seeing terminally ill cancer patients and helping them through that last part of their life journey. And that too is such a grief process, being ill. And I have a number of people I see that have chronic illnesses. Again, lots of grief about, I have this disease, I can't do this, I can't do that. I won't ever be able to do this. A lot of grief. I am just grateful that they have you to express that too, and for every person out there that can hold the space for this, because it is, it's not for everybody and you have definitely done so much training and work to be able to protect your own self and not go home with all of it on you as well, because it's a lot when people just. Share everything on you dump all their emotions and all their feelings, and you're able to give them feedback and then also not carry it with you. It does take some practice to, to do that. Yes. So thank you for going through all the trainings and all the education you have and all the experience you have because. It's a lot and I just wanna make it okay for people to talk about, people to say I'm hurting and for people to not be scared. Right, right. I was actually looking, I don't normally scroll, but I do have families that I follow and their child is going through the process right now. Of. Passing away. They're in a different state. But I followed this kid and I've, I followed another one, another girl too, that passed away and hers was a really long journey on hospice. And so that's like passing away when the time is right for you. There's no right on some of these journeys. So it could be a year, it could be six months, like it could be days like, we don't ever know. But I think that one of the, one of the most important things both of these families have done is. Talk about it on social media and said, they've come out and said just their feelings. And one family asked for privacy. Hey, we know our child is scared right now, doesn't wanna die. We know there's no other options. We're not asking for any anybody to throw their options at us in the comments. We're just asking for prayers or support or whatever. Good healing vibes. Whatever you believe in, just leave that with us and we're gonna be at peace, and then we will keep you updated. I think just respecting everybody's individual things as they go through this and not telling someone there's not hope either because. You don't know. I watched a mom go through this and they did like a Christmas early and they did all these things early and then the little girl lost it longer time than they expected, but then when she passed away, I don't know that it's not any easier. No, no. It's not any easier. And people like, but you had all this extra time. No, no one has extra time. Right. She's been able to come on and she'll turn off the comments and do a live video and talk about it, and I am grateful that she's able to do that and express what she's went through, because I just think that when you're able to do that, you're always helping somebody else. And what a fabulous way for her to process that and to also put herself into a teaching position and share with others. And it certainly might. I'm sure it is difficult for others to hear, but such a blessing that people are able to find the strength and courage to do that. Yeah, I watched it and shed tears along with her and I'm like, I don't know this lady in real life, but I've watched their journey and she's on here crying and sharing her heart about the good, the bad, the ugly of it all, and, and then able to say okay, it's been this many months past and this is what we're dealing with now. This is how we're feeling. And they also have little kids that they share about, and so I think it's really. Really helpful. And also it's really therapeutic when you get to share your voice. I never thought it was, people were taught to stuff our emotions down a lot of times. But as I've been doing podcasting and learning and healing myself, it's like it actually is really helpful when you are able to bring it out of your own self and speak it to somebody. It's really helpful that she's able to go through this and just speak it in front of all these people and just be like, this is where I'm at today. Tomorrow, I may not be in the same place, and that's okay. Absolutely. Absolutely. When I talk about grief, I say that it's such a heavy topic and I don't want these podcasts to be sad. Right. So if you could say something like, grief and happiness can be in the same, do you believe that? I do. Well, I think about the stages of grief. Yes. I mean, people can be in all the stages at the same time. They can be zipping back and forth between them and they can pop over into euphoria and happiness and, but, and then sometimes they'll catch themselves and think, wait a second, so and so just died. And here I am happy. I've got to get back to the sadness and, to really understand that. It's okay to grab onto a little happiness or, I often say to people that, you know, humor truly is some of our very best medicine. And I really enjoy. Seeing people, at a funeral or celebration of life when they remember humorous, fun and happy things about the person when they're really bringing that joy to the grieving process because absolutely that can be part of the grieving process. Absolutely. Yeah, I wanna thank you for saying that because I don't wanna end these as sad. I want to end them with how can we make this, like grief is a low vibration, but there can also be high vibrations I interviewed another guest about grief and he told the story about his dad. And a memory he had about grieving and how at the time it was as a kid, he didn't get it. But now he knew it was like tough love and so I think that's just powerful. Like now he gets to laugh about it. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and that's why it's so important to talk about the people that we've lost because Yeah. We're keeping their memories alive. Mm-hmm. And we're processing that grief and we're doing it in a way that isn't just all tears and sadness. You were talking about your other guest and their dad. Mm-hmm. When my dad died from lung cancer and he was diagnosed many years ago, but he was diagnosed in August and died the following, February. He didn't really die from cancer, he died from the chemo. Mm-hmm. Um, because the chemo was just too difficult for him to endure, but. Right before people die, their body temperatures go up. And so he got really hot and he took off all of his clothes. I'll never forget this. He looked at me and he said, do you think it's gonna matter when I get to heaven? Do you think God will care if I'm naked? I said, no, daddy, I don't think it'll matter. But we laugh about that now. And we remember him well. That's what I always tell people. Remember your loved ones. Well celebrate them. Yes. Thank you for sharing that story. Oh, you're welcome. I love when people put their personal touch on it is this is what I've experienced and this is what we remember and this is how we still bring it to life. I think that's the other important thing is. To remember them like just because they're in heaven or whatever your beliefs are. They're not with us here anymore, but we can still remember them. Absolutely. Yeah. And I really encourage people to continue to talk to them because I think that's super good in the grief process to continue to have that conversation, you know, when I'm working on a project, my dad was an engineer, so when I'm working on a project to figure it out, and I'm saying, well, dad, I certainly wish you were here now because I can't figure this out. Yes. I thank you for sharing that as well. You're, I think these are very important things. Welcome. I wanna thank you for being here. If you could leave them with a piece of advice, do you have some parting words? I do. I don't shy away from your grief process. Dive in and feel it. And experience it and let it come and let it go because if you put it off, then it's gonna sneak up and really get you down the road and it's gonna be much more difficult. So don't be afraid of it. Dive in and take that walk by the beach. And when that big wave swamps you, at least you'll know, oh yeah, that's what this is. This is a big wave of grief. And get yourself a towel and dry yourself off and continue your walk. Thank you so much for just coming and talking about this with us. Oh, you're welcome. It's my pleasure. And what a blessing to have people like you, Casey, who are getting the word out. Thank you. I receive that. We're changing the world. One voice at a time. And that's right. Today is the day we start making the change, so thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for tuning in to another episode. I hope today's story inspired you to embrace your own journey of growth and change. Remember, transformation isn't always easy, but it's always worth it. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review. If you found something that sparked you in this episode and may spark a friend, I encourage you to go share it with them. If you have your own story you would like to share, I would love to hear it, so please reach out to me. Until next time, friends, go have some fun and let those sparks fly.