E58. Permission Led Selling in Beauty With Naomi Nahoum

This week’s episode is honestly one of the most powerful conversations I’ve ever had on the podcast. I sat down with Naomi from Beauty Business Evolution. 

This episode is PACKED with the kind of “oh my god… THAT’S why I’m burnt out / undercharging / struggling to convert” clarity that genuinely changes businesses.
 

Here’s a little taste:

🎀 Why so many women burn out

🎀 The permission led sales strategy (this is GOLD)

🎀 The ONE thing every beauty pro should master

🎀 What actually attracts high-paying clients

🎀 Money triggers & confidence

🎀 How to explain your value without sounding salesy
 

Honestly… this episode hits different. You’re going to be obsessed with this one.
 
You can find Naomi here: https://www.instagram.com/beautybusinessevolution/

Naomi's Consultation Blueprint: https://www.beautybusinessevolution.com.au/the-5k10k-consultation-blueprint

Are you looking to level up your salon in 2026? Every beauty business owner needs Beauty Business Foundation, this is the KEY areas you need to have a successful beauty business. Want to learn more? 

 https://beautybusinessschool.com.au/beauty-business-foundations/ 

Transcript

Welcome back to the Beauty Business School podcast. Today I have an incredible guest who I was very lucky to meet at Expo recently. Today I have Naomi Nahum with us. Welcome. Thank you, Kimberly. Hello. Hello. Hello. So good to be here. It was really nice to connect with you at Expo. I was the emcee for your particular category, and I loved listening to you and listening to the insights you had around business. And I'd love just to start off, tell us a little bit about you, your background, where you're from. Yeah, allright. So I'm originally from Western Australia. If you have international guests, that's the other side of Australia, because currently I'm in New South Wales, Sydney. Well, a little town out of Byron Bay, actually. But my journey started, I was obsessed with nutrition, beauty, wellness, fitness since I was a kid. My mom and I remember doing Fit for Life when I was 16. Like that's a juice fasting process that you go through. And I soon realized, wow, what you eat from a young person, like at 16, your skin changes really incredibly. I mean, so much so I had orange hands from having so much carrot juice. But more than that, I know just learning rituals from my mom. She still had bowels and bubble bowels, and she looked after her skin immaculately and really was looking after herself so much so that it really made a huge impression of me. And living in the country of Western Australia, I think having space and time and eating really fresh produce all the time, having vegetables in our garden, it just made a big impression from a small person into an adult. And I just naturally felt it gravitated towards health and healing and beauty. So instead of studying nutrition, which I really wanted to become a naturopath in Perth, WA, they didn't actually have anything available at the time. So I looked at CIDESCO, the diploma and it covered nutrition, it covered anatomy, and it covered all the things on cells and biology. So I was like, I just love this. I want to do this. And the more I got into it, the more I realized I'm in theright place. I'm working with women and I know one day I'll be able to help women transform their health and their skin. So it all started then way back when I was 19, after year 12, worked with Ella Bachet for three years, which gave me an insight of the ingredients I didn't want to work with. No offense to Ella Bachet. I've come a long way since Lanlin. And I don't want to put any cosmetic down, but I really soon realized I wanted to work holistically and with ingredients that were more natural and clean and more plant-based, but still making an impact on cells. So when I moved to Sydney, because I wanted to work in health and wellness, I worked on a health retreat and that made me realize, oh, that's amazing how you can actually integrate beauty and wellness together. And that's what I always did as a child and as a teenager. And then learning to be with it professionally, I was like, oh, I found my home. I was like, this is phenomenal. And I worked in a few more places in Sydney and I soon realized customer service was appalling. It really was. I was like, I always went the extra mile for people and I always gave more and I just thought, I can do this. These clinics, health retreats, they're good, but good isn't good enough. Like the Australian people deserve more and I want to give more. I want to be that person people come back to and I build that relationship with. So I took the brave move. I had no money. Knew no one, new to Sydney and knew nothing about the distributors or skincare in Australia at the time, as in what was actually a cosmeceutical comparable to a cosmetic. But I was, you know what, full of experience and love and care and I'm just going to give it a crack. What have I got to lose? My goodness. So my mom lent me some money to set up my first clinic. And in two years, it was phenomenal. What I did from nothing, zero, to multi-six figures blew my brain. Like from $19 an hour to making 10K weeks because I focused on relationships and not revenue. I focused on consultation. And what I soon realized, I came from a background where I learned how to do consultations really well. CIDESCO taught me that. My remedial massage diploma taught me that. I studied psychotherapy. And when you work with people with emotional intelligence, you really have to unpack their life. And so I really learned the fundamentals of what are people here for and what weren't they happy with and where do they want to go on the journey. So I think creating that longevity and that relationship with people really made them feel seen, heard, understood and want to be guided by me. And I was like, wow, that was really validating. I didn't actually realize this was a thing until it became a thing. And I was like, this is a blueprint and I need to actually start reproducing it because I grew out of that small little place and I finally had some money in my bank. And I was able to rebuild a new clinic and I employed three beauty therapists and contracted a massage therapist and a laser practitioner. And we were the first wellness center in Sydney. So it really took off. It was phenomenal. And back then in 2000, no one knew really what wellness was. It seems so foreign to say that now because we're so all over it. But people were like, what do you mean wellness? And I had to re-explain it. So I felt like I was going on this educational journey and on the journey and I was educating clients. They really got it. I mean, my husband was my partner in business. He's an acupuncturist, Chinese herbs, shiatsu practitioner. So people got the connection of, oh, like when you get the body mind nutrition element, how well you feel, how better you feel, how vital you feel. So it was an exciting journey. And yeah, that's sort of in a nutshell where it began. Naomi, I did not realize we had so much in common. You've just given us this beautiful intro and I am like, I did not realize we had so much in common, emotional intelligence, the nutrition and the skin gut health, like wellness aspects. I'm like, all my questions are about to go in the bin that I had for you. But honestly, I think given when you were doing that, that would have been quite revolutionary. Like that would have been so unique, so different. And I imagine that's where a lot of the like, but what's wellness? Like it would have been almost like now we talk about gut health, we talk about emotional intelligence, we talk about all of those sorts of things with our clients and they're like, yep, yep, we get it. But I imagine that there would have been roadblocks bringing that out in a time where people were like, what are you talking about? I know. And I feel like we've got a lot in common because I've heard you talk about healing and tarot cards as well. I kept a lot to myself because people were a bit like, I don't want to say it like, people really thought it was a bit woo woo if you talked about healing then. And I actually am a healer in a modern world, generally. Like I don't dress up with my witches outfit and like I love staging and all of that. I'm going to be in the woods with you. Let's go, honey. We're together. Barefoot, the whole thing. Yeah. I can do both worlds, but I'm just, yeah, I just kept it more contained because I knew I was building something and I felt if I went too far left, I would have lost a lot of people. But I kept it contained enough to make people feel safe enough to know that I've got you, I get you without going too far to the woods, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. Dealing with city people, you know, and not saying I'm not a city person. I grew up in the country. So it's a very different mindset. And also what I had, the knowledge I had was very different to the corporates I was looking after, you know, back then, corporates, not now. I mean, corporates are very into holistic health and wellness and they know the difference now. They know they need to decompress and have to do something more to regulate their nervous system. So if I started talking about meditation back then, oh my God, I think I would have just gone up. You're talking about a cold,right? It's interesting that you say that people now know because there are parts of me that I don't talk about. And I've really just sort of started exploring this in recent podcasts with guests. Interestingly, I keep bringing people in by accident who are very aligned. I'm like, the universe is doing things to me here. I see what you're doing. But I like, I'm very different. I homeschool my eldest daughter. My son is in primary school still. But we don't take Ponadol. We don't take any medication. We work on our gut health. We work on our mindset. We talk about emotional intelligence a lot. Like I live a very different life. And even now, I feel like there is an element of people being like, these chicks extra. In fact, one of my friends said, you're the most extreme friend that I have. And I was like, what is extreme about taking care of your mind and body? And like, I think there is a turn in the waters now because a lot of people that I know who are quite successful in the industry, and there's obviously a lot of people who aren't as well, not aren't successful, but aren't doing this. They are working on their nervous system. They are working on their internal health. They are, you know, changing the way that we speak to people in the industry, what we take on in the industry. And I always say, people always say to me, oh, the industry is bitchy. Yes, if you are in that circle. And I feel like there's this beautiful circle that is coming out now where we're like, hey, we're emotionally regulated. We're taking care of ourselves. We're seeing our shit. Like we're seeing when we're projecting on people or treating people poorly and really taking ownership. And I just want to say, I think it was so damn brave of you to do it in a time when no one would have heard you. Like as much as I'm scared to talk about it now still, there is a bigger conversation happening and you just wouldn't have even had that. Yeah. No, I appreciate what you're saying. And I felt I couldn't do it any other way because I am so holistic in my approach and everything, everything, absolutely everything. I'm more spiritual than holistic actually. And I don't speak of that enough, you know. But yeah, it was brave, but it felt the only way I could do it. And I thought, it's make or break. This is me. I knew no one. So Kimberly, I was either going to be rejected or loved. It just wouldn't have been loved. I had to crawl back, get on that flight to WA. But I knew there was proof because I worked on this health retreat for six months. I lived on site. And there were people from Sydney flocking all week, all weekend. I was looking after them. I'm going, there are people out there that are craving this, not just for a weekend or a couple of day fix. They want to know this. So that the proof was there. It just, I just needed to find my tribe in a community. And I was like, if I get itright, if I give them the time, if I set up the consultright and take them on a journey and show them what's possible. You know, I had maps of this is where you are and this is where you can be if you're willing to do this. But if you don't want to, there's this. You know, we can do this. You know, like I gave them options. And I soon realized with emotional intelligence, women like at least three choices. Give them any more than three, they get lost and don't make a decision. So I thought, if I gave them three choices, the high end, the middle ground, and the lower end, they're going to find a choice somewhere because they want to make a choice. So I sort of like, we can start here. We can do this. Or if you really want to go for everything, this is what's possible. Yeah. So I took the time because I had the time and I built slowly. And that's why it worked. And that's, you know, there was that, do you remember that saying that was out there? When you go slow, you get pace or something. I know when you slow down, you get faster or something like that. There was an expression people were talking about years ago about going slow makes you faster. And I was like, well, it does because if you do the hard work first, you do the slow building, bubbling away, then I saw it explode because it rippled. Women talk the good things, you know. They're like, go and see that woman, go and see that chick. She's doing this to me. Yeah. It's that whole slow is fast, fast is slow. Because when you go too fast, you make mistakes. And when you go slow, like I just, there's so many little nuggets you just said in there that would benefit everyone listening. It's like, I found the evidence. So not only did you do a bit of market research in being there, you then convinced your subconscious brain, well, this is possible because I'm seeing it's possible. And I think when you go into a business being like, I know this is possible, you go from how am I going to make this work to it's just going to work. And it's that sense of knowing that comes with it. So I thought like, as you said that, I was like, that's such a like great little nugget of if you believe it's going to work, what you believe is what you become. Yes, I love that. Yes. So I think I just, I'm always like, I've got all this stuff off to the side of the screen that I want to ask you. And I'm like, but also, I now just want to know, like, how did you build this business in a time where like it just, I remember even when I was younger, when people would talk about holistic health and stuff, my parents would be like, oh, that woo woo crap. Like they would say stuff like that. Like even now my parents would be like, what are you doing? Who are you? So I just, I think that's amazing. No, I love, yeah, and I love the alignment that you don't, not that, but you're teaching your children that you don't need medication to heal pain. You know, you can do other things. I mean, medication's wonderful. I mean, I've taken it multiple times. I mean, it's there for a reason, but it's not my first choice. It seems like you too. Like, you know, if you can, you know, help yourself. And it's a bit like business. If you, if we take the shortcut, you know, there are long-term consequences. There's no shortcut. There is, but there's consequences with the shortcut. Such a good metaphor of like, everyone always says, like, but why don't you take Panadol? I'm like, oh, because I'll go drink water first. Okay, well, you know, it's basically, I often find we try to cover what's wrong with us instead of healing the problem. Also, almonds are really good for headaches if anyone wants some. Oh, I love that. Like four or five almonds is equivalent to a Panadol. But it's just stuff like that. And I think what happens is when you say stuff like this, and I wonder if you've experienced this with how you set up your business, people instantly think I'm off the deep end and I don't appreciate science and I don't appreciate medicine. No, no, no. I think we're bloody amazing. I think that we've done some incredible things. And I think that there is room for everything in moderation. Like you said, it's not my go-to though. I don't take Panadol for a headache. I'll lay down and have a nap. I'll take some almonds. I have natural alternatives. And if none of that worked, I'd take the damn Panadol. It's your last choice. And I think if we put it back into business, so if, you know, if your clients aren't rebooking or your figures are low or you're not retailing as strongly or something else is happening in your business, why don't we take that metaphor into assessing? Okay, what is going on in your business? Why are things we need to, you know, I always come back to looking at what's working, what's not working, what can we do better? So it's like reassessing rather than, you know, those knee-jerk reactions. You know, a lot of people tend to go, oh my gosh, I need another device. I need another machine. Oh, my products. Oh, maybe I need a new product. Oh my gosh. I need to discount. I've got to do a quick promotion. Pause. Put the Panadol aside. Don't hit the emergency button yet. Just what is actually going on? Feeling a little bit uncomfortable with actually seeing the signs. Yeah, it's treating the symptom. You're treating the symptom rather than going to the problem and being like, what's the root cause of this? You know, if your books aren't busy next week, what happened four weeks ago? Weeks ago. What was happening four weeks ago? Because otherwise you're going to book them up next week with your reactive Panadol. I'm really liking this metaphor. Your reactive Panadol moment instead of actually being like, okay, well, let's not take the Panadol. Let's go back assess so that this doesn't happen in another four weeks and another four weeks and another four weeks. Yeah. Love that. Right. Yeah. We need to feel, we need to, I suppose, yeah, we need to feel regulated to do that and have a good mindset and feel like we're in charge of those thoughts. Yes, I agree. And I think for my next question for you, because now I'm making them up as I go, I'd love to know how do business owners then take this on board? Like we give so much to our clients,right? We constantly are giving to our clients. We're constantly saying, hey, you know, you should take these essential fatty acids or you should wash your lashes or you should do X, Y, Z, you know, use your brow serum. How do business owners then, when we begin, we start with so much passion,right? And we run on that adrenaline and we're so excited. But as time goes on, we stop taking care of ourselves. We burn out. How do business owners then actually create a sustainable business by putting themselves first and taking care of their nervous system? Yeah, good question. I that's quite layered that one. I feel sometimes that comes from us being women and we're predominantly looking at looking after women. It's like the feeling of you can't give when your cup is half empty. You know, like we give us and give us and nurtures and nurtures. And it might be a subconscious thing we've learned either collectively or from our mothers or grandparents or grandmothers that, you know, we can't ask for too much and we, you know, can we, we have to hold back and that feeling of, oh, do I, you know, do I now offer more because she's already paid so much? You know, we need to like look at how we're operating as a woman in business and be more the leader and be a director and be the owner and learn to just master what we're great at and do our best to let go of any past conditioning or patterning. But we have to realize what that patterning is because women tend to be overgivers. Yeah. So that sense of our nature is then put that into a business world and it can get overlooked. And then we do what you're saying is we get burnt out. Yeah. Because of that patterning and because of our nature. But then we have to relearn how to, okay, I might be like that, but how can I put in stronger boundaries? How can I learn to say no kindly and lovingly so you're not compromising yourself? You're not losing integrity with your clients or your business people around you. And that takes time and effort and energy. Otherwise, I say choose your heart. This is what I say to my coaching clients. I go, you choose your heart. You keep behaving and performing this way and the same things continue. You know, the same patterns, the same behaviors will keep showing up and nothing changes because you're still doing, you're not delegating. We're not good at delegating. We have to learn to delegate. Yeah. We need to learn to put our head up and say, I need help. To fall into these patterns is so easy,right though? I mean, I'm now on business number. I don't know. I've had multiple businesses. And I noticed literally last week that I was falling into the patterns of give more, but don't charge more. Give more, but don't charge more. Give more or just charge a little more, but I'm working so much more. And I was like, hang on a second, but that's what burnt you out in the last two businesses. So reel it in. And it's really easy to not clock that and to not keep your behavior on the pulse. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's the thing what I was saying was that for us to transform, we need to change that behavior to actually be the person, that woman, that successful business owner, whatever success looks like for you. I mean, for me, success was having the time and the freedom to choose to do what I want to do when I want to do it. It's, you know, financial success was one thing to actually be having money in your bank and surplus to live a lifestyle that you want to and you deserve to. But more than that, it's just choosing you over having this decision of, oh, I'm burnt out, I'm exhausted. Like you're more important, your health is more important. It's, you know, I saw my mum work so hard, so too hard. You know, that broke me as a child. I'm like, oh, I'm getting upset talking about it. Yeah, it's just we have to change that patterning. Oh, I feel you. I'm like, don't, I'm a sympathetic cry. I'll cry too. It really is. And I talk to this to my students a lot. Like I'm like, the beliefs that you have are formatted when you're a child,right? So for you, you watched your mum work so hard and you were like, that's not the life she deserved. That's not the life I deserve. And you've taken that belief system into your business. For someone else, they could witness the same thing as you and literally be like, I need to work that hard to be successful,right? Because we define those beliefs. And I love that you define the belief system of like, no, that's not going to be my future. That's not what I'm going to do. But it's so easy for us to just lead through life based on what we've defined as a child. Yeah. And I did model her behavior because to get to where I am now, I worked so hard. I mean, it's a hard industry, but I love it. I mean, when I say choose your heart, I live on the back of a dairy farm. That is hard. When I see these family wake up at, well, I'm not awake, but I hear their tractor at 3:30 in the morning turning the grass for the cows and doing all sorts of things. Like that is hard. What they do. And then you get the public saying it's 20% or 20 cents increase for a liter of milk. And like, I think we get so removed living in the city. You don't see what these dairy dudes are doing. Like they're working hard. I mean, digging holes in concrete and making roads is hard. I mean, emotionally and mentally, we work hard. Yes. But we need, if we choose this, we need to, this I think this answers the question more to the point of what you're asking is own it. Like we've chosen an industry where we're transforming women. Like we're making them feel amazing and their self-belief and their certainty in who they are and what they stand for. So yeah, it's hard our industry, but we've chosen it and and stick by it and choose your heart in the sense of do you choose to turn up and go, what can I do better today that's going to actually make a difference not only to my business, but to people's lives? So you don't have to work as hard by looking at your numbers. Like this is what we don't tend to do a lot, I think, as selling owners. We don't learn the business. We learn how to be amazing operators and experts in our own field. But we're not learning how to actually run a business. And we don't get taught that, which is fair. You know, I I had to learn how to run a business. I hired my first business coach in 2001. And that's because I didn't know. I mean, I knew how to look at what was coming in, what was going out, but I didn't know what that actually meant at the end of the day. Because I know back then, actually, Kimberly, I don't know about your viewers, but in around 2000, we weren't talking about figures in our business. Like it was very close. We wouldn't say we were making this much. It was sort of, I don't know, it was always like boasting or not heard of that we could actually share our figures. And now it seems a bit more transparent, but like we need to know what our figures are. Like know your numbers, know your rebooking numbers, just know some common mathematics in your business so you're actually not running out of loss and know how much it costs you to open your doors every week. So you know how much you need to be charging. So it's these sort of things that I'm teaching and educating the industry most of the day, actually. And you know, it's pretty boring to know your numbers, but it's essential if you want to have a sustainable business. I think it's really sexy. I make it sexy. I mean, it sounds boring, but I do make it sexy. Yeah. I absolutely, like, don't get me wrong, when I first started and I sat down, I was like, I want to pull my hair out. I want to pull my teeth out. Like this is actually the worst thing that I've ever done. But once I started to be on top of those numbers and I started to see the profit margins sweetening the streets and more money being in my bank account, I was like, why didn't I think this was sexy sooner? Because this is the best. Yeah, yeah. It's crucial to have a long-term business. And if you want, and that's the thing to be in the long-term and the sustainability rather than, you know, getting 20, 30 years in going, I've got nothing to show for it. You know, that's, which is common I think people don't realize how common that is to be doing it for so long and being like, wow, I've got nothing to show for it. I can't get a bank loan. I can't get a car. I can't get a house. Yeah. They didn't put the time into getting their head out of sand, really, and looking at their numbers. And that comes back to me. I think a lot of the time I was speaking to one of my coaching clients recently and she said, my self-belief to charge more for what you're saying just doesn't, she just didn't feel comfortable. Yeah. And so that's why a lot of small selling owners and beauty professionals do just scrape by. It looks like they're doing really well on the outside, but because their costs are so much more than what they're charging, they hit a ceiling. And I think it's out of fear of asking, they think for too much or being too much. But yeah, we need to move through that and just feel comfortable to have conversations with our clients to say, look, these are my costs. I need to charge a certain amount because I will have to shut. And how many sellings do close every year? I mean, there's thousands, thousands. Yeah. We even say it like not a lot, but we have seen students come in, not do the work, not look at their numbers and then close down. And that's fine. It's obviously a choice, but it's devastating because it's like if you just knew your numbers, it would change the game for you. And I'm sure you're the same. Like if you just knew your numbers and you saw yourself as an expert who could charge at that level, everything would change. And I often see the shift, and I don't know about you, but when people go from home into a commercial selling, they don't want to, or one, home-based businesses don't think they can charge much, especially when someone goes from a commercial selling back to a home. They're like, should I drop my prices? No, you shouldn't. Absolutely not. Your skill hasn't changed. Your service hasn't changed. Keep the prices as they are. But like when home-based businesses go into a commercial selling, they don't feel they can make the jump to commercial prices, but really they should have probably been charging that much from home anyway. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, working from home doesn't mean you need to charge less. It's almost like, you remember when internet shopping became a thing, like it wasn't a thing and then it became a thing and people were like, oh, it's going to be cheaper because it's online. No, it doesn't mean it's cheaper because it's online. It doesn't mean your overheads are less. It looks like they're less because you haven't, but those products are being stored somewhere. Like there's still costs involved. There's still pack up and there's a human involved. Pardon? It's funny that you say that because so many people say to me like, oh, it must be great to be a business coach because you don't have overheads. And I'm like, hang on, hang on, one moment. You have a commercial space. I have a hundred million programs that need to be paid for to keep this running. So my overheads, and I don't even know if I've said this on the podcast before, but they're $15,000 before anything else. Like, so I think there is a misconception around like, oh, it's cheaper from work to work from home. Absolutely. Look, I'm not going to lie. There is less overheads for a selling to work from home. However, why wouldn't you put yourself into that level of profit? Why wouldn't you do that? Why wouldn't you do that so that you can afford a fit out, can afford more retail, can afford to grow, or just can afford to go on a damn holiday because you deserve it? And marketing, like you probably need to market yourself more because you haven't got the foot traffic. There's, yeah, there's a lot of pros and cons, but it doesn't, like you're saying it. And what I'm saying is you don't need to lower your prices because you work from home. If anything, you just build yourself belief and your confidence, your certainty, and be consistent. And all of that requires a cost and a price. And the value you're giving, we're not putting enough on the value we give, regardless if you're from a home or a commercial business. One conversation, because I charge, when people see me, only work two weeks, hands on a month. And one woman, I've ruined my clothes because I've got this really beautiful signature facial treatment. And one woman said to me, Naomi, you've ruined me. I go to the six-star spas everywhere around the world. And the only thing missing is a chandelier from your ceiling. I was like, doesn't change the quality of my treatment, doesn't change your result. She's like, no, that's the luxurious experience I go for, but I come to you, pay the price because I love it and you're amazing. Isn't that phenomenal? If you just put a few shiny objects around and then charge the same, but the service might not be the same because a lot of people go to those resorts and retreats and experiences and they walk away going, that was just, the quality wasn't there. There was no connection. There was no feeling from the therapist to the client. Like I feel empty walking out, but I come to you without the chandelier and I feel like I've been on a holiday. Yeah. So what do you think then the real secret is to being able to build a business that can bring in those clients that can charge that amount of money, one, for attraction and two, for keeping them long-term? So I'll just reframe your question, Kimberly. So what? That's allright. So what do you feel is the secret to actually getting clients who will pay that level of money, that five-star? I see. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Great question. You know, people will feel you before you say anything. So my certainty, I'm just talking from my experience and then what I've modeled with my clients, with my coaching clients of how they can also charge when they weren't charging, is that if you've got this rock-solid certainty of who you are, what you give, what you're about, more than your environment, they will believe you and they will know it. Women are so instinctive. They will feel you because there's any figure of a doubt that they don't believe what you're saying or that you can't take them on a journey or you can't give them the result. There'll be in their psychological, emotional part of their gut and brain connection, they'll be going, uh-uh, something's not adding up here. I just had so much self-belief that that's the thing. I worked on my inner knowing and I had the expertise, the skills, and I've had a suitcase full of qualifications. I've got so many diplomas and certifications and I continue to train and learn. So I, you know, I had the evidence, I've got the proof, I've got the knowledge, but more than that, that was that consistency. I just was consistent in everything I did and they felt it. Yeah. And I just had a conviction. So it's like, you need to have that belief and that certainty in yourself, unwavering, and you have to work on that. That becomes, that's not just something that just, oh yeah, that happens. We need to work on that. So the more that you can show your clients, even if it's social proof, you know, if you've got the conviction, I could show them, I had testimonials, I could show them my belief in my languaging and just how they felt within being with me, that was the difference. So if you're confident in your hands and your energy exchange, people will know that. That's the difference. But the attraction is then understanding who your ideal client is. So my marketing was very always on point. So what I would say, if you're a woman that is looking for X, Y, and Z, you know, flawless aging, anti-aging treatments that will give you X, Y, and Z results, I would attract them in, but the thing was nurturing them and transforming them. So converting them to a long-term client. So you can attract them with your marketing, but then then it's up to you as a selling owner, can you then nurture them so much so that they want to come back to you? And when do you say, when can I make your next booking? That's notright at the end. You have to do it in the consult. You need to do it. Right? Yeah. You have to, you can't be doing all that, oh, I didn't rebook her a follow, you know, or recommend home care. You don't do that at the end. That's all part of the nurturing in the consult. Yeah. I'll need to see you in three weeks' time, four weeks' time. How does that sound to you? Ask for, ask for, not proof, ask for their permission in the moment. So it's all that permission-led leadership is what I'm all about. Is it okay? And when you make women feel safe, that gives them confidence in you. Yeah. So that's sort of a roundabout way to get there. I mean, first it starts with you, but it's your languaging. It's your consult and doing, gathering the information and in that gathering to actually then say, this is what I notice. Could I see you in four weeks' time? Can I put a home care program together for you? You know, it's getting that permission then and there rather thanright at the end when they're ready to leave and they're switching off and just want to go once they've paid. They really are. You don't exist anymore. They just want to tap and leave. So I can help. Done. See you, sister. And I think if we really looked at our consumer behavior as our own consumer behavior, when I've gotten out of the facial, please don't sell me retail then. I don't want to feel sold to. I'm so true. That's why it feels like you're being sold to. And yeah, this is it. This is the thing, Kimberly. You just said it. Our industry is full of awkwardness and pushiness because it feels like you're being sold to when it's at the end. If you do it at the beginning, it's not a selling point. It's an educational point. That is the difference. Yeah. We've got to normalize when we're selling. And you do it at the beginning, you won't feel like you're being sold to. Exactly what you said. You feel sold to at the end. Yeah. I think especially because when you come in and you're coming in, let's say you've booked an anti-aging facial, you know you're going in for an anti-aging facial. So it would make sense for them to say to you, okay, today I have you booked in for an anti-aging facial. We're going to look at your skin. I'm going to talk to you about what's happening within your skin and what a journey would look like to get you to where you want to go and ask them their goals. Then it kind of makes sense at that point to be like,right, here's what you should do. When you've done the facial, you've used all the products and it's like, so today I used 17 things on you. Do you want to buy them? It no longer makes sense because it's like, but I've had the service and I'm just ready to leave. Yeah. And also too, there's a really, there's a psychological point. So the highest point for a woman to respond to you is generally at the beginning. She's more likely to say yes to you, to your suggestions and offersright at the beginning. That's the highest point. Yeah. Like where did that come from? I want to read that article. Yeah. Well, no, I studied on the psychology of sales and spend about it. Exactly. I studied the psychology of sales. It was a five-day intensive training. And it really, really opened my world to transforming my business with my team because I knew I could do it, but I didn't actually have a model that I could pull apart. I mean, I could see what I was doing. I could see, okay, the client would come in and I'd sit them down and go through the consults and do what you just actually said. Then I modeled that back to them saying, this is where you're at. This is what I can see I can do for you. And if you're open to it, we can do these three things. You can start here. We can get your skincare routine sorted with cleansing, nightcare, daycare. We can introduce a nutritional element, a wellness element, give them all the things so they could choose. But the thing that I would say to them, once I see and touch your skin, I'll then be able to give you a home care program. Is that okay for you? And I swear every woman said yes. Yeah. So that was the permissionright at the beginning. And I never felt like I was selling. And that's why I became a 10K selling owner in two years because of that. That's all I knew. I love this concept. That one thing transformed my life. You're like, if you're going to take one thing, guys, permission-led. I love the concept of permission-led. I mean, it's, I'm going to be honest with you, I probably have done it naturally, but I've never heard of it as like a concept. I'd love for you to go a little deeper. Like, can you explain that to me? Yeah. So when you ask permission, is that okay if I do this? Is it okay if I show you what's possible? Is it okay that I show you a nourishing cream or a mask or whatever, a serum or whatever the product that you would like to introduce possibly to your client? It shows that you're respectful to the client's needs. It makes the woman feel safe so she can make a decision, yes or no, and make her feel understood. And it also makes you look like a leader because you're guiding. Yeah. So there's a lot to be said in it because it goes through multiple layers of allowing the client to see you as a leader. You make them feel safe and you're giving them the permission and ownership to say yes or no to you. And it's not to take anything personally. It's just to go, I now understand where we're at in your own mind. Sure. I'm sitting here and obviously I'm also a business coach. So I'm like, oh, permission-led sales strategy. Like if you don't have a course called that, Naomi, please. Because it is. No, something's coming. I'm brewing. I've got something. I've got something coming, girl. I love that. I'm like, great. I love that. Like we can obviously talk about that when it happens. But I just think permission-led is such a unique concept. Like we're always taught the structure, the strategy of sales. Like, but to just put women in a state of nurture, because let's be honest, we are nurturers and to feel safe. It's actually, people often say like, do you prefer a commercial or a home selling? I actually love when I know I'm going to a beautiful, clean home selling, a home selling, because it feels safer. It feels more intimate. Yeah,right. Nice. Right. And if I'm going to a big commercial selling, I like it to feel cozy and intimate because that's in my nature to want to feel safe in that way. So when we think about that, what you're doing is you're taking that element of like nurturing. And that's not to say, by the way, guys, commercial sellers can't be that. They absolutely. No, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. That warmth of what comes from that, if you can put that into a sales strategy, as well as obviously solve a problem and, you know, take them through the journey of what they're going to have, I just think that there would be transformational power in that. And it makes sense to me that you did what you did in two years by leading that way. Oh, phenomenal. And then the great thing is, when I did hire my coach, I said, what the hell are you doing? Honestly, that was the worst. Because I was saying to you previously and to your viewers, back then in 2000, we weren't sharing numbers. So I didn't think I was doing anything special. I just, I didn't even really look at my bank account. That's how vague I was. I was just like, oh, it's working. I'm busy. I'm so happy I was busy. I wasn't even too busy to look at my bank account. But I was like, when she said, why are you getting over 70% bookings? I went, am I? Yeah. Like, do you not look at your numbers? No. I'm just busy. I'm happy. I'm making money and my clients are happy. They're coming back. So this is the vagueness that I don't want other selling owners to get fall into the trap of. Because I mean, now we talk about numbers. I mean, I know how important it is. But back then, it's like, you're making money. So what? She's like, please. She's like, what? Look at what you're doing. She's like, I want to clean a car and you're by yourself. What are you doing? She actually forced me to go, not literally, physically, but go, what are you doing? Like, what is your process? So that's when I knew the high point of, as I was sharing before, that when you sit down, that is actually a high point. And that's where I came up with my permission-led leadership. And when you touch the skin and see the skin and you then go, oh, now is it okay that I can share what would be a great opportunity for you to improve your skin or how we can work together on that? Is that okay? And they go, yes. So that was the moment where I went, oh, that's what I'm doing. That's so different. I'm not doing it at the end where people feel sold to. That's why it felt very natural to me. So then I could then train my three beauty therapists and like, this is what you do. And then when I studied the psychology of sales, I had more evidence of this is what I was doing was correct. But yeah, obviously I had a lot more to give to my team and now to the industry because I actually know it's like, this is actually proven. Yeah. I love permission-led leadership. I'm obsessed with that name. I think that that's well done. That's very, very well done. I'm here for it. I'm like, I've just caught on that for a second. But I do, I completely agree with you. And it's interesting because you've said a few times that we're so transparent about talking about money now, but I do find the opposite. I find there's so much resistance. Like even my clients when I'm like, hey, can I share that we got you to 20K months? Can I share this? There's this level of what if my team think I'm rich? What if my team leave me because I'm making so much money? They feel so much shame around money and profit and talking about money. And a lot of it comes from how we grew up around money, again, taking that back. But the industry, I remember talking to someone about it. She said, oh, I don't share my client results because I don't ever want it to shame someone else because they're not there. And I was like, oh, that's so interesting because I would see it as here's what you could do. Here's the potential and the possibility. Yeah. What's possible? Yeah. I feel like money is still a very taboo conversation. I'm the most open person. Like I was telling you about my figures before we got on this call. I was like, yeah, we're doing this and we're doing that. And like, it cost me $15,000 to run. Like, and people just look at me blank face. Like, I can't believe that because I do even remember when I was a kid saying to my dad, how much money do you earn? And he got quite upset with me and was like, that is the rudest thing you could ever ask someone. And I was like, okay, oh, so it took me a lot of like rewiring to be like, it's safe to talk about money. It's safe to look at money. It's safe to have money in my account. And I just think that there is a really powerful conversation there around like, if you are listening to all this and being like, I'm triggered by money or I feel this way, it's okay to reframe that. You don't have to stay in the belief that you're inright now. Yeah. And it's a money mindset that we get. Either like your experience, you were taught not to ask, which incorrect or correct is neither or. It was just what it was. Maybe your dad learned that from his family or they didn't talk about money. Whereas in my family, we talked about money all the time, actually. So it was not foreign to me. When people would ask about money, I'm like, oh, you know, it's okay. But I can see why it is triggering because it, I suppose what it does, it puts people in a, it's almost like their career. Like people will sum up your career with how much you make. Like people would go, oh, you're a beauty therapist or skin therapist. Oh, that's nice. Like, oh, you're just a beauty therapist. Oh, that's your career. That's nice. Or because I've got quite a young energy, I feel people would like, oh, do you just have a little selling from home? Like, no, actually I have three girls and two contractors. I'm like, oh, they treat you so different. Like it's like, people just have these assumptions and I don't mind if I wasn't earning money at the time. It didn't matter because I didn't have money at the time. Yeah. You know, like I can go either or, but it's like, don't assume and don't make up all these assumptions just because I look or sound a certain way that, oh, you, oh, that's nice. I heard a lash artist speaking recently saying, oh, you're a lash business. Oh, that must be nice. Oh, you must be just, you know, getting by. And she's like a multi-trillion dollar business. Like just getting by. Just whatever. It's funny. Even the fucking girls look a bit pretty. There is this projection. I like, I've got so many instances and even within and without the industry. I remember getting on a plane and sitting next to this lovely author who ended up sending me a whole kid series of books for my children. He was the nicest man. And he was like, so why are you off to America? And I was like, oh, I'm going to a lash conference. And he was like, oh, what? And I spent half of the flight telling him about lashes and how big the industry was. And he's like, if I'm honest, I would have thought that if you're a beauty therapist, you're getting by. You're not making money. And there is that level of presumption that I think talking about numbers can be powerful to change the perception. But also there is that element of people coming out and they're like, oh, I've got a multi-six-figure business. Come learn this service with me. And you could too, without being transparent, know your numbers because you can have multiple six-figure business. You can have a six-figure business and have zero profit. So there is that in it and transparency. Yeah. And I think once I started revealing my figures as a skin clinic owner, I noticed some of my skin clients dropped off because I don't think they realized the income I was making. Or then some people were like, wow, you're actually running a real business. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the perception too because I'm not running on money. I'm running on the relationship that I build. So I guess there would have been when I started being transparent, I was just like, wow, sometimes it bit me on my bum. So there is, like you were saying, it's still triggering for people. It's and maybe that's why selling owners are not sharing their income because they are concerned that if they do share their income, it would drop off. Yeah. Quite. Because there was a selling that I was coaching and within she was a 38K selling owner and within three months she went to 57Ks and I think wow. Oh my God. Like, yeah, I was so proud of her and she was one of the best clients to have because she just followed everything. I saw so many gaps in her in her business. I was like, you fix all those holes and you'll fly. And yeah, but something happened that she just then said, please don't share this publicly. I was like, oh wow, this is quite something. You know, because for me it was just like, this works. What we're doing works. It wasn't like I needed to share her name, but just, and she was like, no, no, no. Yeah. It's so, I mean, this is an area I play in a lot. So for me, that comes down to being able to navigate people's triggers and projections. Someone else's money mindset doesn't belong to you. You need to move past that and you need to like, I share openly. My business, guys, earns between 25 and 30K a month. My overhead's $15,000. You do the math. We're in profit. And that could make you not want to work with me or that could make you be like, um, I want to support her. And I think the difference here of what I have created this level of being really comfortable in talking about this is I've created a community who are like, fuck, yes. Yes, you are. Why wouldn't you? Like, I want to do that or I want to support that. Like, there is a creator I'm following at the moment and she's like, my million dollar year. I just signed up to her program because I want to help her get there. I was like, take my money because she has created a community where she's not shaming it herself. And what energy you put out there, that's what you getright on back. If you are putting it out there and you're kind of like, oh, is this braggy? Is this that? Well, guess what? Your clients will be like, she's braggy. Yeah. So if you fully own it and you create a community just like you and that energy, they're going to support you all the way to the top. They're going to be like, yes. I think that's the difference knowing the essence of the person. Like, I'm not a money chaser. I love relationships and connection means a lot to me. So, but the the gold is if if people want to come on board to model you and be in your energy and your community so they can get there too, I'm all for that. Like, I think that's great. Like your community, like if they go, oh my God, I love Kimberly's vibe and she's in profit, I want that too. Yeah. And I think that that is really that people feel like they can't be successful and other people can't handle it. That's not your responsibility. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Not at all. Yeah. And you won't lose the clients who are truly committed to the community and the experience and you. You'll only lose the clients who were coming to you just because you were the easiest option, the best kind of option, like the most convenient for them. If someone is a raving fan, they're going to stay. Yes, they will. I love that. Because that's the thing. We don't have to push harder or do more hours or do more of anything really. I think it's really what I've found is if you find your thing you love and master it and keep it simple, just do that one thing, but do it so well that you're doing more of it, but become better from doing it. Less is more. I love that. You've given us some absolute, I'm like the sitting there and really thinking about the customer experience and being really good at what you do and really embodying that, like being like, I fully embody this, I can charge. And we know that when you have clients who are obsessed with your service, like the client you spoke about earlier, they're going to refer you out. They're going to get more people through. I just, I'd love to ask, maybe this is my last question. I guess how do you build that level of confidence in yourself to be able to have the conversations at the beginning of the treatment, to be able to feel fully embodied in being like, yeah, this is a three, four hundred dollar facial? Like how do you actually get that confidence? I believe in the value I give. So the confidence comes from so much experience, from so much study, so much life experience, so much commitment, so much consistency, and so much that I give. So it's, if you know you have all of that, plus you can charge. And it's being able to say that. Like for an example, I had a high-end client who would come in and buy a massage from our clinic at the time when I was offering a full-body massage. And he'd say, no, my wife wants it with you. And I said, oh, okay. So that's 20% more. Because I would charge 20% more than my team. And he said, oh, why is it 20% more with you? And I said, well, I've got 15 years experience at that time and multiple diplomas. And I offer a lot more. My team are equally as good. But if you're saying you want to be with me, that's what it costs. And he's like, allright, okay. So it's having the confidence to have those conversations. Look, he was a smart businessman. I could talk straight to him like that. I wouldn't speak to a female client if she walked in and said, why is it 20% more to a treatment with you? I would word it very differently. But I needed to match his energy. And I think that's the thing is to be able to read people and feel confident and be able to have a cohesive, articulate, calm, but grounded conversation matching their energy. And if, you know, someone was more softer and in that, I just, just share with them, just say, look, this is what you're getting is not just a facial. You're getting a whole experience. You're getting 20 years wrapped up in two hours or 90 minutes or one hour that comes with a holistic experience, guided relaxation, breath work, cosmeceuticals, incredible skin after work, body work, acupressure, pre-exposure, body scanning. It's a whole concept wrapped up in one. And actually, I could be charging over $500, but actually for you, it's, you know, I'm charging $360. You know, so the value you're getting is more than what. So you need to give them more, explain it in a way that it's like blows them out and go, oh, they kind of feel silly for asking. Yeah. But you don't want them to make them feel silly. But it's like explaining it in a way that you're offering this as a whole package and a treatment and an experience. It's not just a treatment. It's not just a facial. Yeah. And when people go, oh, it's just a facial, or actually I just need to reframe that. I'll just say to them, it's actually not just a facial. Can I explain, please? That's that permission-led leadership again. I'll just need to explain, if that's okay, what you're actually wanting to have or what you're booking in for. So you, you're empowered. You're not disempowered by someone trying to belittle you or make you feel bad for what you charge. Yeah. You take ownership of the conversation. You know exactly pre-framing what you're giving the client. You know exactly what to say. It's almost like it's so rehearsed as natural. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I think. Yes, yes, yes. You know what I mean? Like you need to, you can't be caught on your feet because that makes you look uncomfortable, incompetent, and not confident. And I just knew what I was giving because I knew my service so well that that's what I would answer back to them in a very, very loving, kind, but strong boundary format. So it really is understanding like what is your value. Like it's not just brows, it's not just lashes, it's not just skin. What is the value you're giving and how can you package that value up with your service to be like, okay, yes, you see that I'm going to do your lashes, but what you don't see is all these other things. You know, we include an under-eye mask. We maybe you do a head massage if it's like got a processing time, your treatment. Like it's all those added things that it's like you see the result. Here's all those other things that you don't see. Yes. And if you are, like you're saying, if you've got a lot of lashes or eyebrow specialists in your listeners, it's even saying the things that people don't say that are really obvious. Like I actually map out your eyebrows. I frame them. I make them, you know, whatever you need to say, the things that seem so obvious to us as the therapist or the artist, but it's not obvious to the client. Yes. Yes. It's like saying all of the touch points. Naomi, you've given me some really good things here that I'm like, these are incredible points. Like they really are. And whilst they seem so like simple and obvious, I often find that's the biggest like shifters in business is just being like, how can you, and activity for everyone listening, write down your services and write down the actual value. We custom design your brows by mapping them out. You know, we do a brow massage that's based on, I don't know, whatever type of massage. Like you just make it sound good. Color. Like even how you customize the color so it's so, I don't know if the word's perfect, whatever the languaging is. So it's so aligned with your coloring, your skin tone, your hair tone, whatever. I don't do brows. I do, but I don't. We have a mixed bag of listeners, which is why I always bring in so many. Like when I talk to skin specialists, I'm like, and what about lashes and brows? And then when I talk to brow specialists, I'm like, what about skin? So I'm always mixing it in there. But it really brings me back to, I heard a quote this week and it said, it's easy to be a, it's easy to be confident when you're of service. So if you really see this as not just what you do, but the service is greater than that, that would really build your confidence. Yes. Because we need to own what we do. You're not just a brow or a skin therapist or a facialist. You're more. And it's actually seeing the moreness. It's like seeing the transformation, the greatness that that woman will walk out feeling so confident because you've had your magic on them. You've I've just, you've done the sparkle. I've thought how to quantify this. Instead of being in the masculine energy, and for those who don't know, masculine is strategy and doing of like, I do lashes, I do skin, I do brows. Go into your feminine energy where you're very much like, oh, you know, so not only are you going to get the transformation, so the process is that we do one, two, three, four, five. Feminine's very creative. It's very flowy. It's very detail-orientated, but not in the same way as strategy. Yeah. Yeah. It's got a softer edge to it. Yeah. It's not so young. It's more fluid and more flowing and more sparkled. It's more sparkled. We want you to sparkle. We want you to sparkle in your, in your, in your strategy. And it is like even just saying this to you, I'm like, I feel more confident. I'm even doing these services. Like it does feel so different to being like, oh, I do lashes. It's like, oh, well, what I do is I custom create a design that perfectly fits your face. Yes. Then I go in and I choose the perfect length, curls, and colors to suit your eyes. Well, shit, you've got me already. What's it paying for? Yeah. Yes. You're soright. It is. It's that whole, what you get. It's the confidence in being able to say that and how to articulate that. That's the difference. That's a very good social media post. I'm sitting here, I'm like, you know the social media post that's going around and it's like what you pay for versus what you get. And it's all their expenses. It should be like what you think you're paying for versus what you get. And it's the experience of all of those unique elements in the treatment. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And it's how you define yourself comparable to everyone else doing seemingly the same thing as you. Absolutely. You know, like,ugh. I'm like, I could go. Hours pass has jumped around because as soon as you introduce yourself and like, I got to know that side of you, I was like, excuse me, hang on. Throwing the whole thing out of the window. Sometimes I think I just need to come on here and do three hours where we just chat. And I'm just like,right, let's go over there. Let's come over here. What is it? Joe Rogan style where he just like talks to people for three hours. It would be an experience. I don't know how your listeners will go. We may have to pause, take a few breaks. Yes. I'm like, you guys are loyal,right? Let me know your thoughts, feelings. I'd love to wrap this up by asking you if you were to start your business out all over againright now, what would one key piece of advice be that you would give a business owner? Oh, gosh. There's a lot. Okay. One key piece of advice. I think, yeah, peeling itright back. Know what you want to focus on and just do it so damn good that people will just want to come to you, stay loyal to you, become a raving fan, refer, rebook, and buy from you. Just know that one piece and be consistent at that one piece. So it's the consistency at finding that one thing that works for you and just do it and do it until you're a master. Because it's not about pushing harder. It's not about the hustle and the grind. Yeah, sometimes we do like that part, but it's the consistency of finding that one thing and just doing it so damn good that you're a master at it, an expert, a specialist, and you get known for it. Yes. But people just come up and just, they just want to be with you. Yeah. I love this. I'm obsessed with you. Thank you very much. I know. I'm very like emotive in the way I speak to people. I'm like, I'm part of the family now. Come on. No, thank you so much. Naomi, where can everybody find you? Oh, thank you. So my Instagram handle, Beauty Business Evolution. Well, my name, Naomi Nahoom under Beauty Business Evolution. My website, beautybusinessevolution.com.au. Yeah, that's a good start. Yes. That's perfect. That's where we can all find you. I love that. And you can obviously drop in and have a chat with you if they have any questions. Oh, please. Yeah. I've got an incredible freebie at the moment, if anyone's interested. My consultation blueprint. This is my 10 cake week formula, girlfriends. Oh, I love. Okay. Well, you can all run over there and download that immediately. I need to link it to you, actually. I didn't link it to you. Yeah. So, oh, we'll put it in the show notes. Look, guys, how professional we are. We're organizing it in the show. We're like, we'll put it in the show notes. It's absolutely fine. Uh, thank you so much for your time and for joining me today. It has been an absolute blast. Oh, my pleasure too, Kimberly. You're a blast.