Graced to Lead

S2/E10 - Rebuilding After Loss: Navigating Leadership When Your World Collapses with Dawn Mann Sanders

• Belinda Gaston • Season 2 • Episode 10

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What happens when a leader's world completely falls apart? When the carefully constructed life you've built suddenly crumbles beneath you? Dawn Mann Sanders knows this territory intimately. After experiencing three miscarriages and the sudden death of her husband within a single year, Dawn found herself in an uncharted wilderness no leadership manual had prepared her for.

This powerful conversation unveils the rarely discussed intersection of personal devastation and leadership responsibility. Dawn, a spiritual architect and associate minister, shares how losing her husband and unborn children didn't just represent the loss of loved ones—it represented the loss of her future, identity, and the dreams she had carefully nurtured. For women in leadership positions, these profound disruptions create unique challenges as they navigate their grief while maintaining their responsibilities to lead others.

Drawing from Genesis, Dawn reveals how she discovered a framework for rebuilding by studying the creation story. She found parallels between the formlessness and void described at the beginning of creation and her own experience of emptiness after loss. This biblical foundation provided her with practical steps: remaining connected to God, recognizing that parts of her identity remained intact even when others were lost, and creating steady flows of nourishment in her life.

Dawn challenges several misconceptions leaders often hold about healing and restoration. She dismantles the notion that if we do everything "right," we can avoid setbacks or ensure they're temporary. Using examples from Adam and Eve in paradise to Job's blameless character, she shows how even perfect circumstances or righteousness don't exempt us from profound disruption. She also emphasizes that authenticity matters more than facades—contrary to what many leaders fear, people connect more deeply with leaders who acknowledge their struggles while working through them.

Ready to rebuild after your own devastation? Dawn's forthcoming book "When Your World Ends" and her new podcast "Rebuilding Your Life" provide resources for moving from shell-shocked to spirit-sheltered. Connect with Dawn at DawnMannSanders.com or join her Creative Restoration Movement for ongoing support in your rebuilding journey.

Connect with Dawn Online:
Instagram: @dawnmannsanders
Facebook: Dawn Mann Sanders
Threads: @dawnmannsanders
X (Twitter): @DawnMannSanders
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dawnmannsanders

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Belinda Gaston:

Welcome to the Graced to Lead podcast. I'm Belinda Gaston, your host, and listen. Today we have an amazing conversation with a very special woman, and so I want to start by introducing her and then I will welcome her to the show. On our show today we have Dawn Mann Sanders, and she's a spiritual architect, author, bible teacher, associate minister at First Baptist Church of Glen Arden International in Maryland. She blends Genesis-shaped blueprints with reflective practices and helps people rebuild rhythms after devastating loss, soul-crushing disappointment and major life disruptions. Her debut book, when your World Ends, and her forthcoming podcast ends and her forthcoming podcast Rebuilding your Life illuminates God's creative process so people can move from shell-shocked to spirit-sheltered, and she lives what she preaches. Y'all and I am excited about this conversation. Can you do me a favor and welcome Dawn Mann-Sanders to the show? Welcome Dawn.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Hello Belinda, it is a pleasure to be here.

Belinda Gaston:

Thank you so much, and so one of the reasons I believe that really this conversation is necessary is because we're at a time where women who lead are having to face difficult situations. As they lead right, they are leading in places where they've experienced loss, where they've experienced grief, where life situations have happened and the responsibility to lead is still there. But there are things that are happening with women that are leading that they need to deal with, and I think you are the perfect person for this conversation. So, to help our listeners, can you start by just telling us a little bit about your personal story and how you got into this space?

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Yeah. So after what I call a series of unproductive relationships, unfruitful relationships it wasn't necessarily that the guy was terrible, it just wasn't a good fit and some of them painful relationships, relationships I finally met and married. What several people in my life said was the one and he blessed me to just have the first year ourselves. Several of our friends, when we got married, after they got married, got pregnant that first year and even though we didn't meet each other until late in life we didn't start courting until we were 40 years old and we both wanted to have a family. He Graced me to have that first year where we weren't, we wouldn't try, we wouldn't do anything to, you know, being late in life too. We didn't want to risk, you know, doing anything to stop it and then not being able to have a family. But we didn't do. We risk, you know, doing anything to stop it and then not being able to have a family. But we didn't do, we weren't trying. And then God Graced us to not be pregnant that first year.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

But my husband, you know on our anniversary, I told him we can start on our anniversary trying, and so over that next year, I experienced what I believe to be three miscarriages.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I say two and document two in the book, because I was able to test and have the proof that I was pregnant twice, but I believe I was pregnant the first time and, before I could test, lost that child and over the course of the next year, like I said, I had three miscarriages, and the third miscarriage I had six weeks before my husband's unexpected sudden death, and so I lost what I felt like was my whole family in the course of a year. With it, I felt like I'd lost my future as well, because, as anyone who has experienced loss knows, you don't just lose the person, you lose the hopes and dreams tied to that person. And with the loss of my husband so late in life, I believe I lost the opportunity to have my own family from my body. And so, yeah, I was devastated, and that's what led to me writing my book and starting my ministry helping people rebuild their lives after, like you said, devastating loss, major life disruptions and soul-crushing disappointments.

Belinda Gaston:

Thank you for sharing that, and I think that when people hear stories like yours, it's hard to even imagine how you keep going Right, how do you even get through one miscarriage, let alone two others, and then the loss of your husband, and so we're grateful that you're sharing your story. I'm interested in how you began to move forward. How did you begin to sense God leading you to rebuild? How did you get from that place to where you are?

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Thank you, belinda, for asking that question and phrasing it the way you did. About rebuilding, first, I want to say you're right, it is devastating. I don't want to, in any way, shape or form, minimize any of my pain or anyone else's pain. What I will say is, because I was what I call a late in life mom, because I was pregnant, and I believe life begins at conception what I will say is I was happy that I got pregnant. I used to celebrate my cycle every month. I know that's rare to hear.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

After I turned 35, I started celebrating my cycle because it was another sign to me that I had an opportunity to have a family, and so I started treating it that way and receiving it that way. So the fact that I got pregnant was just, and that's what I prayed for. And you know they say be careful what you ask for. And the Bible says ask not. You have not because you ask not. I didn't think at that time that praying for the ability to get pregnant was different than praying to have a baby, and it's different. And so after my first miscarriage, though I was very thankful to have gotten pregnant, my prayers changed and I started praying to have a healthy baby. Well, you know the story I didn't have a healthy baby.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

After the second miscarriage, that one rocked me, the first one. I was like, oh, I can get pregnant. And I also felt like though it hurt. Like I said, I don't want to minimize my pain, and I also felt like though it hurt. Like I said, I don't want to minimize my pain. That miscarriage was not, you know, unknown and I didn't think I was special. Why would I not? You know, why would God shield me from one miscarriage? Now, I did question why he didn't shield me from two and three. I'll be honest about that, right.

Belinda Gaston:

What is?

Dawn Mann Sanders:

going on. I thought this was the kind of household, the kind of family that you would want, because we were going to raise up kingdom kids, right. So I was my husband and I my husband was a youth minister and we were both like what is going on? And I started questioning my body and was very devastated with those other two and the third one on my husband's birthday.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I had what I call a violent miscarriage because the other ones and I'm just going to use the word violent, we don't need to go any further than any more graphic than that. But here I was, it was so violent. He took me to the emergency room. We thought I was dying because of this miscarriage. I want to mention, because you said, how do you get past it? And I share in the book about how, after my husband died because as long as he was alive I still had hope for a family when he died I very much wanted to go with him. I felt like God made two decisions that day. He didn't just decide to take my husband, he decided to leave me and even though people were saying God has more for you, I was like, yeah, I'm not signing up for that.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I didn't sign up for this. I'm good.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I started learning about heaven, because I wanted to know what my husband's life was like. And the more I learned about heaven, the more I was like why am I? Why do I want to stay here? So I kept praying. I was praying that God would take me too, and he didn't. So when you say what led to me rebuilding, I want to set the stage for what I was rebuilding from. And so I was praying every day God take you know.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I would go to bed every night asking God to take me, and every morning I was waking up and I was like okay, after a while I'm like OK, I'm an intelligent human being. I'm sensing that your answer is no, at least for this season. Right, because we will all surely die, but not necessarily today. And so I started to pick up that, ok, I'm going to be here, pick up, but okay, I'm going to be here. And then I started thinking to myself well, I cannot, I cannot continue to hurt, because this is just too much.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

When you think you're going to go that night, you can endure that day's pain, but to endure that day's pain, the same level of pain, every single day, I was like, okay, again, I didn't sign up for this I do since you are waking me up and I'm sensing you saying, because I had said this part of my life was I was living through the end of the world as I knew it Well, and that's what I and I sensed that God went yeah, and I want you to live through the end of the world as you know it Right. And so that's what led to me recognizing that God was saying I want, I kept you because I want you to live. I don't want you to just exist, I don't want you to just survive, I want you to just survive, I want you to live. You have walked in the land of the dead long enough. Turn and start living again. And so I was like, okay, I need to start living again, and there are a lot of great books out there.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I can recommend a few on grieving and there are a lot of great books out there. I can recommend a few on grieving. Right. I did not find books on rebuilding and I found that they're different. When you're grieving, you're in one spot and what I realized is, if there's any direction you're going in, it's inward, it's going deeper. That's a different direction than forward, and when you're moving in a different direction, you need different skills and tactics. I also came to understand that the structures, the resources, the insights, even my relationship with God since this is a Christian podcast would be different in my new season than it was in my current season, and so I had to develop these new things. And I'm gonna tell you something, since this is a podcast for leaders and I'm so excited about the fact that it's a podcast for leaders right, as leaders, we get to certain levels and we think certain things are behind us.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

In fact, the American culture kind of sells us a bill of goods when we're on the path to the American dream. Get your education check, buy a house check. Get your education check, buy a house check. Find your spouse check, build your career check, and not necessarily in this order. But you have a bill of goods and you start checking things off Build wealth check. Get your first six figure job check right. You just start, you know, build it. Get these titles check. Travel check right. You just start checking these things off your and you think to yourself oh well, I've had a six-figure income, I'm never going to have to go back to the five-figure income because we're moving forward. We don't think we're going to have, we're going to get these setbacks that are going to set us so far back. And now I'm going to take it to the spiritual right.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

The way I understood it as a minister was I never expected for it to get this dark. After standing in the light that just didn't compute. My brain was like what? How can it be this dark? And it's this dark because the tools and the strategies and the processes and the systems that I had spent 25 years building I had spent 25 years as a software tester. I was at the pinnacle of software testing. When I would interview people, I'd be like I don't need to practice. I've been doing this thing for 25 years Now. All of a sudden it's different. And not only was it different spiritually because I was at the pinnacle of being a software tester. I was hitting a ceiling in my salary. Remember, we're sitting here going. Oh, we're going to move forward.

Belinda Gaston:

And I was like wait a minute.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

What is this? 1% pay raise? What kind of fresh crazy is this? So I pivoted to become a data scientist, using all the skills that I had as a software tester. So I was rebuilding in every area of my life the reason I mention this and in every area of my life I needed new things and one of the things I realized that I needed that I didn't expect, you know, I had gotten new jobs before. I hadn't changed careers. I mean 25 years I hadn't changed careers, but I had gotten new jobs before. I always used the same network. When you pivot and not only did I pivot to data science right, I'm an author. That's a huge pivot. Data science isn't a huge pivot. I'm using all the skills that I have as a tester the same degree, everything. That's why I chose it. I didn't have to go back to school or anything to be a data scientist. I didn't have to go back to school, in the sense of university, to become an author.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

But I knew nothing about writing a book and the people I knew hadn't written books. They wrote code, but they didn't write books. So I needed a whole new network of people. So when I say everything was changing, everything changed and how I was able to rebuild, I recognized that I was in a different season, that I was not going to be able to stay in that previous season because I was not going to be able to endure that pain. And in order to go into this new season and be successful because we're leaders, we crave and expect, at this point, success In order for me to succeed, I'm going to need some new skills soft skills if not hard skills, or vice versa.

Belinda Gaston:

I needed a little of both. Wow, dawn, there are a couple of things that you said that I don't want us to skip past, and the first is that you recognize that the season that you were in was shifting, that God wanted you to shift. Because you talked about waking up, it's like, oh, I'm still here, okay, I have to live. And so recognizing that season shift and recognizing that you need strategy for those seasons, I think is sometimes where people get stuck. People get stuck in old seasons, and that's either good or bad.

Belinda Gaston:

One of the things I heard you say was you talked about in your leadership, how you would hit a ceiling at the same time, and that's a choice. And so, listeners, I want to encourage you to really think about the season you are in. Are you in a season where you're supposed to be in, meaning the season that God wants you in to operate in your leadership, or are you in a season that you're supposed to move from from? So that's a question for you to think about, as you're listening to Dawn talk. So the other thing, dawn, that you talked about is how moving into these new seasons required new things. It required new networks for you, it required new skills, new things, and so I want to talk about this, and you've outlined some things in your book, but I want to talk about this one specifically, and you've navigated that. I'd like for you to share one or two things that helped you to begin to move.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Actually we're talking about some of the stuff in my book, so this is works real well I talk about in my book. My book is a deep dive into the creation story in Genesis 1. And as I was studying Genesis 1, just for myself, personally wasn't expecting it to become a book, was just, you know, I'm an associate minister, so I study the Bible from time to time. And so I was studying, god took me back to the beginning, right, and he said study Genesis. And I didn't even think about it being the beginning at that moment. I just was studying Genesis. And so the very first two verses in the New King James read in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form, void, and darkness was over the face of the deep and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. The face of the deep and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Well, belinda, I didn't get past verse two before I was struck by that description because I dug deeper.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Formless means more than just shapeless. It means unproductive, and when we're stuck and that's the problem that leaders are having it's like wait a minute. Being unproductive is foreign to us. We lead other people in their productivity. How is it that we are struggling? It is such a struggle because it's counter, it's counterintuitive, it's counter to our nature. We, we're the proverbial fish out of water, proverbial going what the season just, and that's what throws us, is because the strengths that we've been given, the gifts that we've been given, the gifts that we've been given, the talents, the skills, the experiences, everything that makes us us is rebelling, because we're like wait a minute, this, this, how? Because many of us are natural born leaders, we've been leading from the cradle. Many of us are natural born leaders. We've been leading from the cradle. In fact, our parents said things like oh, there's 13 going on 30, because we have been doing this from jump, and now we're finding ourselves in a place where we can't even lead ourselves, let alone other people, and it feels very uncomfortable. We feel very much not ourselves. And if we can't be ourselves, because everything comes from who we are, I struggled with what I was even calling myself after my husband died, because, you know, people immediately start considering calling you a widow.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

People were like, oh, as a minister. They were like, oh, you can minister to widows. And I was like, yeah, no, I'm not feeling that Widow. Who is that person? That word was foreign to me. I was Reggie's wife and I'd only been married to him two years. I had just gotten comfortable with being his wife and now people were calling me his widow and telling me I can minister to strangers, I'm like, and telling me I can minister to strangers, I'm like, and about something I don't even know. And I started thinking about this.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Right, you know, when we're growing up, there's a progression right where we gain certain knowledge. As we go on, we decide again part of the bill of goods in America that most leaders, at least in America, kind of go through. We pick up certain skills in high school, we go on to college, right, or trade school or whatever it is. We get training and we grow in our identity because of this training. We don't necessarily call ourselves even leaders at first, but because we're natural born leaders, we're out here leading and we develop confidence in this act of leading because we're just doing it. And as we get this confidence, then we say oh. When someone says, oh, you're a leader, we stop and we go, oh, they're right, and then we embrace calling ourselves a leader. So it begins with our identity and who we are. And if you're a leader, you do what leaders do. In fact, you started going oh, I'm a leader. So then you start jumping. You know you were jumping out there before, but you might've learned through life going oh, I might need to be careful about how I. You know you were jumping out there before, but you might have learned through life going oh, I might need to be careful about how I. But then you, because you have this confidence, you're like oh no, I'm a leader, so I'm OK jumping out there.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Another way of looking at it is a student. You're taught by your parents or whoever's raising you that students go to school. You're taught by your teachers that students listen and students read and students study and students take tests, and so you learn to do these things. You develop confidence in doing these things, and those are the things you do when you Learn to be. I told you I was a software test engineer when I learned what it was. I was first a developer. I learned how to write code in college and I started to call myself a programmer because I got confidence in doing that and they taught me in school what programmers do, and so I did that widow. I even learned in church how to be a wife. They teach you how to be a wife. They have you know. In women's ministry they teach women how to be a wife. In men's ministry they teach men how to be a husband. They teach parents how to be parents.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

You get this training? Who teaches you how to be a widow? Yeah, who teaches you to be a motherless mother? Not a motherless, a childless mother. In fact, there's not even a word in the English language for such an entity. Right? We have orphans who don't have parents. We have widows who don't have husbands, right? What is the word for a parent who has no children? It's unnatural. That's why we don't have a word, and because it's unnatural we don't teach people how to do it.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

So we're thrown into these situations that we have not been prepared for. Basically, going, wait a minute, what am I supposed to do? Well, the first thing you need to do is figure out who you are, and I know that's a big question because I wrestled with it for years after my husband died. Who am I? But again, I'm loving the fact. Not only is this a podcast for leaders, but it's a podcast for Christian leaders.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

There was a part of my identity that, though I lost my husband, that I did not lose. I was still Cliff and Eloise's child, even though I was Reggie's wife, and I'm no longer Reggie's wife. I can lose that, even though my father passed away before Reggie did, I'm still Cliff's child. I'm still Eloise's child. So as Christians, we're still God's child, we're still Jesus's brother, we are still the Holy Spirit's student. So there are aspects of our identity that are still intact, and that is. The joy that I had in having a clean slate is that I wasn't starting over from scratch, though it felt like it that there were parts of me that were still there and I needed to lean into the parts that were still there. I needed to hold on to them, and that's why the first step in my book is remain connected. And remain connected to God is because God had not gone anywhere.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I had gone somewhere emotionally and mentally, because I had lost who I was, but God had never stopped calling me his child. I am still a child of God. No matter what else happens to me, no matter who else comes and goes from my life, no matter where else I find myself, I am never outside of his reach. And so it begins with who we are, and we are his.

Belinda Gaston:

I believe that there's someone listening right now who's like I hear you, dawn, I hear you, I'm a believer. This is hard, this is really hard, and why would God even allow something like this to happen at this time in my life, when everything seemed to be so lined up? I'm praying, I'm serving, I'm doing all the things I'm leading. Well, why, now? What would you say to that woman?

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Number one. I'd honor your pain because suffering is real and suffering is painful. So I'm not in any way, shape or form, going to try to move you from the thought that this hurts or it's painful. I'm going to take you to Deuteronomy. The Lord said this assignment that I have given you. It's not too hard, nor beyond your reach. God has empowered you to make it through and, as they say, if you're going through hell, don't stop Right. Do not make hell your home, hell your home. Keep on moving so you can get through.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

And I'm not telling you to rush your grief when I say keep on moving, because grief is part of the process and you need to grieve and as leaders, we like to bypass the grieving because, like I said, your direction is inward, your direction is deep and we want to move forward. We're naturally wound to move forward because you can't lead anyone anywhere if you're not moving and going anywhere. But you need to go inward so that you can figure out where you're going. You need to know where you are. You cannot chart and I know I don't need to explain this. I can just say this because leaders understand this you cannot get from point A to point B if you do not know where point A is. We wake up one morning and we're like where am I and how did I get here? Well then you don't know where you are. You need to figure out point A. Yeah, we all know where point B is. It's better that's point B, better than where we are. But we cannot get to point B until we deal with point A. Okay, and as much as we want to bypass it, go around it, go over it, all of the things we must go through it.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

It's like the common cold. You remember how we used to go to the doctor? We don't go now because we know, again, as leaders, we know we go. Don't have a fever, right, don't have. You know, it's not flu, it's not COVID, it's not something they can do something about. We need to drink fluids and get plenty of rest. We need to take care of ourselves.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

That is the activity when you're sick and when you're healing. You are sick. I know we don't want to hear that as leaders, but you're experiencing pain. And what is pain? But a sign of sickness, a sign of injury and a sign that you need to do what, and you know what to do to heal. You know you need to rest of fluids, and I keep saying that because fluid in the Bible is a metaphor for God, water in all its forms metaphor for God. So you need to rest, something we as leaders struggle with, again against our nature, but we also those of us who have really excelled have learned that we work best when we rest, and this is an extended season of rest. So clear your schedule and do you, boo.

Belinda Gaston:

That's great advice.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I think that as leaders, oftentimes we don't have these conversations, and I'm grateful that we're talking about this now we want to have the conversation about how to move forward and we are having the conversation about moving forward because, again, you can't try to pass the point between a and b until we know a. But we want to just focus on B, but that's why we don't have the conversation, belinda.

Belinda Gaston:

Yeah, and I think those uncomfortable conversations are necessary. So, dawn, you've shared with us your journey. You talked about giving some really good insight to people who, leaders, who might be in the situation that you just came in, and I think that there's a lot of confusion and some misperceptions about the whole process of healing. Right, and so can you tell us one of the biggest misconceptions that women who lead have about healing or starting over?

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Well, I think the first one that we, like I said, as women, as leaders, the first misconception we have is that if we do everything right, if we check all the boxes, that we're going to keep going forward. But God is clear. Behold, I do a new thing. I recently heard a young pastor and I think his name is Pointer in Arkansas, and he preached about how God doesn't go backward. And I really thought about this. Right, because often in the Bible it says remember, but it always says remember with the goal of moving forward, not to move into the past, always to move forward. So, yeah, we're not going to stay where we are forever. We reach this pinnacle and we think, you know, we have this idea that we've arrived. That's one of the things. The misconceptions is that one day you will arrive and if you arrive somewhere, you're not going back. And what I mean by going back have setbacks because I've done the things. Well, because, let's just again, we're in Genesis right Now.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

My book deep dives into Genesis one, but let's visit Genesis two for a moment. My husband and I, when we were courting, we studied Genesis two because we wanted to study the first couple. Well, again, we didn't get far. We get to chapter three of the story, and along comes the serpent who basically just turns everything upside down. And so Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden, which is paradise, a garden that God planted. He didn't just let stuff grow wild like in the wilderness. Right God hand chose everything that was placed in the garden. It was the perfect environment for the pinnacle of his creation man and woman, adam and Eve. Man and woman, adam and Eve. And so they're in paradise, and along comes this serpent that convinces Eve that it can get better than this. Now, ain't that a misconception?

Belinda Gaston:

Yes.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Right there You're asking if misconception's right. It can get better than this, than what you're experiencing, which is a problem because we don't savor where we are, because we're always trying to get the next thing Right, and that's what grieving is about, because once it's gone, then we hurt over it. It's like we had this thing that we didn't necessarily appreciate the way we should have when we had it, but now that it's gone we're hurting over it.

Belinda Gaston:

Right.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

But back to Adam and Eve. They had been doing up until this point they've been doing everything right right Because they were in paradise. And now they mess up. So my whole point with this is you can be doing everything quote, unquote right and have trials and tribulations come into your life. They don't come into your life because you messed up. In fact, in the book I talk about how in the Bible it talks about, I want to say, in Isaiah, maybe in Revelation, I can't remember exactly where right now, but in the Bible God talks about creating a new heaven and a new earth. Again change God's going to give us this goodness right, and in this new place we're not going to remember our sins.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

And so I talk about how you might feel like you caused your troubles, like Adam and Eve ultimately did Right At first, though they hadn't done anything wrong until they did, but Job did nothing. It says Job was blameless and upright. So whether you feel like you made a mistake or not, challenges and trouble will come your way. So that's a misconception that I can do it all right and I can do that to protect myself. As Christians, it's wrong thinking to protect ourselves. The person who protects us is God.

Belinda Gaston:

Thank you, dawn. I'm going to ask one last question of you. I really want to leave listeners with some tangible steps, and one of them you've already identified. I really love the idea of us understanding what point A is. Where are you right now? And being honest with yourself about that, because a lot of times, as leaders, we are used to putting up the facade to lead well right, we carry things right, and so what happens is, if you have things happening internally, then you just you hide it and you're good. You can come up with the phrases I think they call it the spin Right, you know, and so that's, I think, an amazing tip, but other simple steps that you would share.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

OK. So, belinda, a moment ago you said that we, as Christian leaders, christian women, we put up this facade Right Like we have it all together. Christian leaders, Christian women, we put up this facade right Like we have it all together. And I get it, because you need the people to believe in you. Right, they're not going to follow you if they don't believe in you. But what I learned on my journey is that people will actually believe in you more when you're authentic, believe in you more when you're authentic.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

When God first dropped it in my spirit to share my journey, I was like, yeah, no, I'm not the one God, I was very much Moses, right, and I'm not the one. And the reason I wasn't the one. I told God this. I said God because I'm going to tell the truth. I'm going to tell the truth about how it hurts. I'm not going to sugarcoat that because I don't think it's going to help people to think that it doesn't hurt. Then they're hurting and they're wondering what's wrong with me Rather than healing. Right, because that's not going to help them heal.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I was also concerned. I was scared, because I was like people are going to see the real me. Right Before they sinned, adam and Eve were naked and unafraid. I was fearful to show people my pain. I hurt so much, belinda, and I'm not afraid now, so I'm going to say it I hurt so much, I thought I lost my faith. That's how the devil attacked me and I was like how can I, minister, bring people to Christ? How can I I'm a leader, right, that's what minister I lead people, that's the phrase they even use Lead people to Christ. How can I lead people to Christ? And I'm questioning if I'm there anymore. So how can I lead people? And people need to hear that. Leaders struggle, but they work through it. That struggle isn't the end. It's part of the journey we're leading people on, because there are going to be struggles on every journey. And if we don't show people when we're moving ahead and the bumps happen, and all they see, you is hey, oh, we just moving through and they're like wait a minute, this is a bumpy ride. This is a bumpy ride, I'm on bumps, but you just hey, oh, and you don't experience any bumps or you go oh, that bump was nothing, let's just stay focused. And they're like my focus is everywhere, but on this thing. That's not honest and it's not helpful and I'm going to say one other thing, specifically again, because of our culture and I don't think this is just true of America. When I say our culture, I mean as people.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I think the world, but definitely America, is going through this post truth era where we're celebrating people for being dishonest. We're following people who are regularly dishonest and you know they're dishonest. You know what they're telling you isn't true, because you, you like, you're sitting up here going. I know white is white and black is black and this rain is wet. I know rain is wet and you're trying to tell me rain is dry, rain is wet. And you're trying to tell me rain is dry, right, and we sit up here and we go because it sounds good, because it's the America we want, we're listening and we're following and because we don't like what other people are saying, we don't like the truth of what's being said.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

But how can we be Christian leaders, how can we be Christian post-truth leaders? That doesn't even follow? You can't be Christian and post-truth. And where does all of our faith begin Again, if I can't lead people to Jesus, if I'm struggling with my own relationship with Jesus? So we have to be honest first with ourselves and then be honest with other people so that people understand that this isn't easy. But, like I said, it's not too hard.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

And I'm going to go back to Genesis and wrap this up. When, in the Genesis story, god blessed us to be fruitful, multiply and have dominion. When Adam and Eve were cursed, they did not lose their fruitfulness, it just became hard. It just became hard Before the sin, it was easy. Well, we live in a sinful world y'all, and so it's hard. Do you know what softens hard ground? Moisture. What makes ground hard is a lack of moisture. Good ground, ground that's fruitful is moist ground Ground that and I've just been teaching on this on my Instagram and social media I have over this past month I started with good ground, that we have the ability to become good ground. What happens in life hardens us. It evaporates that moisture, but we can become good ground again. It's not a one-time thing Again. We don't check all the boxes get there and it's over. So when we get hardened, we can become good ground again. The way we become good ground again begins with moisture.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I found out this week that seeds can grow with water but not without water, that the first thing that activates a seed is water. And think about when we used to put potatoes in jars. We didn't have to put them in the ground, we put them in water. Water is a nutrient and nutrients are things we cannot produce ourselves. By definition, a nutrient is something an organism needs but cannot produce themselves. Our bodies are wonderful things and they're 60% water, but that water does not come from our bodies, it came from somewhere else and we have to constantly put water in. We can survive only a limited time Three days, I think it is A little over three days without water. So the way hard ground becomes soft is it gets wet.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Now you can get wet in rain and some rain comes in storms. The storm doesn't harden you. You become hardened. Be clear about that, because the storm brings rain. Right, storms bring rain. The storm didn't harden you, you became hard. You did that. You chose to do that. Like you were saying, choices. So there's rain, sometimes there's mists or drizzle. So I've been saying drops, drizzle and dew right. So you can sometimes have these storms, you can sometimes have drizzle. What's wonderful about drizzle is you go out there in the drizzle and you're like, oh, this ain't nothing, and 10 minutes later you're drenched and then there's dew, even when it's sunny outside. God gives us dew every morning, but you know what the real watering comes with? Psalm 1-3 when we're planted by streams, that one is happy, that one is fruitful. When we allow ourselves and that's step three in my book when we create a steady flow in our lives.

Belinda Gaston:

I think that's a great place for us to end. Dawn. Thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast Listen. This conversation has been so rich. I know that there are people who want to know how to reach you, so I'd love for you to share how people can reach you and if there's anything you're working on that you'd like to share with our listeners, now would be a great time to do it.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

So they can share share. They can find me at DawnMannSanderscom. Find me at DawnMannSanderscom. That's Dawn D-A-W-N Mann, M-A-N-N Sanders, S-A-N-D-E-R-Scom. Dawn Mann Sanders is also my handle on social media. So Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Dawn Mann Sanders is my handle on all these things, and the thing I'm currently working on is actually two things my audio book is coming out in September September 16th and you guys can get connected with me.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I just launched this new initiative called the Creative Restoration Movement. It launched on Juneteenth and I chose Juneteenth because I'm all about restoration and rebuilding, and Juneteenth is about delayed restoration, and so that's why I launched it there. I'm going to give you the link because the landing page has not connected to my website yet, so I'm going to give you the link. People can sign up and become a part of this, because I have resources for people to be restored. God has given us the ability to be restored, and so I'll have lots of resources there, like devotionals, meditations, other eBooks, just things and a whole community Facebook group. All of that, all the things. Belinda, I have all the things.

Belinda Gaston:

Excellent, excellent, and so, for our listeners, we'll have all of the links to to the website, as well as the creative restoration movement in the show's notes. Do you want to talk about your podcast? That's coming up.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

I would love to talk about my podcast. Thank you very much. My podcast is called Rebuilding your Life with Dawn Mann Sanders, and we're basically going to walk through God's creative process with people from all different walks of life. I have a series that I'm beginning with called the Many Roads to Rebuilding, so I'll have different people on who have experienced different things, and I mention that because a lot of people feel like, well, I haven't had a miscarriage, I haven't lost my husband. Does this apply to me and it applies to you if you have experienced, yes, a devastating loss, but also a major life disruption or a soul-crushing disappointment? And so I'm bringing people on who can help people see that their lives can be enriched by embracing God's creative process and joining the greater creative restoration movement.

Belinda Gaston:

Excellent. Thank you so much, Dawn. This has been a plum pleasing pleasure talking to you. Thank you for your time today, Dawn. I appreciate it.

Dawn Mann Sanders:

Thanks, Belinda. I tell you it was a joyful moment, so I know the spirit showed up.

Belinda Gaston:

Yes, I think this has been amazing and for our listeners. Thank you so much for being a Graced to Lead listener. I don't take your time listening or connecting with the show for granted. Also, remember you can always send me a text message. In the show's notes there's a place where you can send me a message. I read all of your messages and for those who have sent messages, you know I will respond. So, thank you. Thank you, thank you for continuing to be a Graced to Lead listener and remember we will be back again on Thursdays. Thank you for listening and until we meet each other again, remember you are indeed Graced to Lead. Bye-bye.

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Belinda Gaston

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