Navigating Grief With Levity & Love - A Conversation with Howard Miller

Summary

In this episode of Growth from Grief, host Sue Andersen speaks with Howard Miller about his experiences caring for aging parents and the emotional complexities that arise during this journey. They discuss the themes of anticipatory grief, the role of humor in coping, and the challenges posed by the pandemic. Howard shares personal anecdotes about his parents, their resilience, and the guilt that often accompanies loss. The conversation emphasizes the importance of family dynamics, communication, and finding comfort in small moments as one navigates the difficult terrain of grief. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the complexities of grief, exploring how memory, resources, and personal experiences shape the grieving process. They discuss the impact of losing loved ones, the importance of sharing stories, and how writing can serve as a therapeutic outlet. The conversation emphasizes the need for self-care and finding moments of levity amidst sorrow, highlighting that grief is a deeply personal journey that varies for everyone.

Thank you for listening! Visit www.sueandersenyoga.com for Yoga for Grief classes and additional resources.

Transcript

Sue Andersen (00:03.928)

Hi, and welcome to this episode of Growth from Grief. I'm Sue Andersen, and I'm so happy to welcome Howard Miller to the podcast this week. Howard, as I mentioned in the intro, has a book out called Burdens and Blessings. And I'm really interested to talk to you today, Howard, about your experience and of course your brother’s because it wasn't…You're writing from your perspective, but your brother also was along the journey with your aging parents.   

And you know one of the things that I think sometimes society as a whole talk about this a little bit more kind of dismisses this grief around parents that are, you know, aging, parents that are older and we'll get to that. Don't want to jump right in there yet but I think that that's why I like this is an important topic to bring up because I think sometimes people forget you still experience a loss and you're still breathing no matter the age of the person.

Howard Miller: Absolutely. Yeah.

Sue: So, welcome. 

Howard: Thank you. 

Sue: Can we start by just telling us a little bit about your parents? Because they're obviously the focus of this book.

Howard (01:39.008)

They are the focus of this book. thank you for reaching out and asking me to be on, Sue. I'm very happy to be here. And yeah, my parents are the focus, and they were, I mean, I don't know how far back you want me to go. Something not in the book is they were married on television. Back in the fifties, there was a television show called Bride and Groom. This is before reality shows and they applied, and they were married.

I could not get a copy of the video; have a recording. I think I have it somewhere. It was on an LP, but we got it on a tape of them getting married. But I my parents, what was, I was very fortunate that they were very, of course they were the parents first, right? But as we get to be adults, they had very active lives through their eighties.

They sold our home in New York, they bought in Florida, they spent more time in LA, because my brother had kids, they stayed out there. Which is where ultimately, they spent more time, that's where they passed away. So they were, well, not like any, I'm not gonna go into their marriage, know, whatever it was. But they were...

We were a close-knit family. It's funny, my brother said after they were gone, he said, I feel like I was kicked out of the nest, which was an interesting way of putting that. Dad lived to 99. And he lived with his mind pretty much all intact. And he broke his hip at 94, in which 90 % of people in their 90s pass, but he five more years.

Sue: Wow. 

Howard: I think that's I mean, obviously he had to make that decision, right. But I think we helped and encouraged that mom lived to 92. The last she lived a little less than a year and a half after dad. And it wasn't as easy for her with different ailments, although neither of them had…they even my mom said they didn't have cancer. They didn't. It was they just got old. Right. And I was almost going to say older. 

Howard (04:00.65)

No, that's me, I'm getting older. 

Sue: Right. 

Howard: So they got old. Well, they used to.. I remember they said to me at least once, how does it feel hanging out with old people? And on reflection, you're not old when you say that. 

Sue: Right. 

Howard: You're not. You're old when you don't, you know, you don't you don't say that. So, know, there's they they both had a good sense of humor, which is where I get it from. You know, they so that that that's that's one of the gifts that just we would laugh at the things no one else might laugh at. I don't know.

Sue: Well, you know, I wanted to mention that. I'm glad you brought it up because you talk about levity as a coping mechanism. And so were your parents like that? Like in their later years in their life? Were they like that?

Howard: So just the book, Burdens and Blessings, the subtitle is A Lighter Hearted Approach for Middle-aged Folks Dealing with Aging Parents. And I wrote it as a cathartic journey, but I realized other people could get value out of it. And I realized there was a lot of humor in the book. And so where do I get it? I get it from them. Now we could talk later. Levity doesn't have to mean humor. They were like that either intentionally or not. Or they at least, here, I'll give you a story where at least they'd laughed, right? 

If something was going and they might've laughed because, well, actually this story, they just laughed. was when my brother and I, during the pandemic, we weren't getting along at a certain moment. And I heard my mother say to my father, the boys, because we're the boys, are talking. And he goes, I might as well be dead. And I ran out of the room and said, don't you dare die. My brother will blame me for that. And that just got us laughing, right? So that's so.

Howard (05:47.816)

So they responded to my humor with that, but sometimes, like with my mom, both my brother and I, if we started to laugh, she probably would laugh. So it did carry through to some extent. Yeah.

Sue (06:04.984)

Did you find that that was something that you all kind of relied on as the situations were getting a little bit more difficult and more difficult? Because both of your parents at the same time were, right? mean, weren't they both sort of?

Howard: Yes and yes and no in that when my dad broke his hip, my mom was still pretty independent. Now, mom was an athlete. She's in the basketball hall of fame at Brooklyn College. know, she played basketball there. She played tennis till about 80 years old. So I could only imagine she stenosis and sciatica, but then macular degeneration so she couldn't see well. And her ongoing stomach issues.  They were all there when she was in, I guess her eighties when dad broke his hip at 94, but she was still very functional. 

In fact, the year after he broke his hip, they were back in Florida and he had pneumonia or bronchus something and he was in the hospital and she went, she had tickets to a show and she thought, well, I'll still go. So she was very functional for a while, even though she had those elements. Hers were always there, but they didn't come to my attention or my brother. Think my father masked some of that when she needed to rely on all of us. But yeah, it was both going on. 

You have to take, I remember one time my mom was having, I was down in LA and I was staying just during somewhat of the pandemic, so I was staying in a hotel. She was having issues and the home care aid very nicely stayed later. And my father said, Howard, and I offered to stay, but they're like, no, no, no. Then my father said, Howard, maybe you should stay. I don't know if I could help her. So I had to go to the hotel and check out and come back. I had, you I'm glad he said that, right? I'm glad he had the wherewithal to say that. So. Sure. Right. So.

Sue (08:16.84)

Yeah, so during the pandemic, that must have been a challenge. They were in LA at the time, though, right? Not in Florida.

Howard: Well, no, they were in Florida. I had taken them into... We had gotten the last several years after my dad broke his hip, they wanted to go back to Florida. I thought they were crazy. But, you know, I read that book, I can't remember the author's name, Being Mortal. It's by a doctor. And he... What I got out of the book is he said that as people get older, sometimes the only thing they have is to make decisions and they don't care if it's right or wrong.

And I thought, how can my father fly after just going through all this rehab? Well, I have to, so when I read that and go, it's their decision, I said, okay, when are we going? Cause I wasn't going to have them go alone. And quite honestly, they were correct in insisting on it. They had several more years of being there where they could work it out. And that includes 2020. I took them there in January and I went back in February. Everything was fine. But they were, so they were there. 

And my father wanted to stay there because at the time when the pandemic happened, California had more cases than COVID. And I'm like, but that, that's just a matter of time. And I kind of, I was getting sick over trying to convince them to come back. you know, none of us knew what was going on. I had to let it go. My brother didn't let it go. And he had a friend of his die unrelated to COVID. And he said, okay, let's go back. So no, so then they came back.

Howard (09:53.998)

In theory, this could work. My brother thought the safest to keep them is in my house. And we're the only ones, I'll be the only ones who sees them. But he worked full time. So I didn't see how this would work. And his place had a lot of different levels. So I was called down there, which, you know, so that's what led to, you know, conflict with us. so they were so, but they were, so they ended up in LA. And then I...We got them back into their apartments, I think, at end of May of 2020.

Sue: Right, wow.

Howard: Oh yeah, so that definitely added something. One of their home care aides got COVID. And yeah, but my parents never got it.

Sue: Yeah, of course, that was a scary time for everybody. all were wondering who's next, and am I going to get it, and all that kind of stuff. But I think for people that were older, elderly people, they were fortunate, like your parents, to be in somebody's home, or they 

Sue (11:10.53)

were in care, just the fact of just being alone was really difficult, so at least…

Howard: we saw that, that when they isolated people, human beings are not meant to be isolated. So no, they, they, they, we could take them a little bit on walks while they were there, but it was better once they got back to their place.

Sue: Sure, sure. Yeah. So I want to shift the conversation a little bit to talk a little bit about what I'm terming anticipatory grief. hinking about like, it's the, it's the, we're getting to the end or maybe we're getting to the end or I don't know if we're getting to the end. And talk a bit about that because I know you talk about that in the book too.

Howard: Well, in the book at the beginning, I mentioned that my brother said we were on borrowed time, right? And I jokingly wrote, you know, I, is 15 years before anything happened. We felt we were on borrowed time. I remember, think a friend was taking me out for my birthday and I said, it's kind of like my parents are a long running TV show. You don't know why it's on, but you don't want it to. And so there was always that now, but then it gets closer. 

Honestly, as my dad was 99, it was a shock when he went, which sounds so bizarre, I think, to some people because, he's 99. And so why was it a shock? I was convinced at that point he would live to 100. There was nothing, he didn't complain. There was nothing majorly wrong that I could see. Now, I hadn't been down there in a couple of weeks.

Sue (12:36.334)

Oh,  right.

Howard (12:51.542)

My brother said in hindsight, the weekend before, it took more effort for him to walk from the cafe to his apartment. You could think of all these things after the fact, but I was just surprised. Spoke to him the night before. My brother spoke to him that morning. And apparently there were fluids building up in him and he just, guess our theory is he went up to go to the bathroom, he has a walker and he fell and hit his head. And that was that, which in some ways, is a good way to go. But we found out if he woke up, he would never be the same. No, we didn't want that. We did not want that, right? Right.

Back in when he broke his hip, my mom and I went one day and he was so loopy from the narco, which I at one point was called Vicodin. And I thought, no, he can't lose his mind. So, you know, the power we have as family members, you have to cut that out. So I can't imagine the pain he had, you know, but the next day when we went in, we said, how are you? goes, well, better than yesterday. So I think we, you know, thing there.

Sue: Yeah. Right.

Howard (14:03.694)

So, so yeah, it does get inevitable. It gets inevitable, particularly when they're the last. Well, not quite the last. My mother still has a friend, amazing. She's now probably 94, husband's 95. They still drive and they're independent, but there were four of them and you know, three of them are now gone. And when everyone leaves with everyone around them, you know, it's getting closer. I don't necessarily, you don't know when.

Sue: Right. 

Howard: You just don't know when. And sometimes, admittedly, anyone who has taken whose life has been altered part of you wants there to be the end. Right. With this stuff. Sue: Sure. Yeah. 

Howard: So when you say anticipatory grief, I think when you're in the thick of it, I'm not so sure that you have. didn't have I didn't make the luxury to do that, because..

Sue: right.

Howard (15:02.528)

I tried to balance my life with other things which would always get interrupted.

Sue: Right, right, right. Yeah, I and they were remind me how was it a year apart? They were months apart

Howard: You mean, they died. No, almost a little less than a year and a half. So mom lived a little bit, but you know, Sue, this analogy I've used is you could think, if I got injured or sick, who would take care of me? Right. But then when you actually get injured or sick, you don't think that anymore. People will just show up. It's kind of like here, how will I feel about it and how will I grieve? I, you never know. Right. You never know. And I'm sure it goes through all different ebbs and flows.

Sue (15:50.274)

Right, right, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Did you find that, know, a lot of times with death, you know, the people that are still alive feel guilty about something like, I should have, I wish I did, you know, that sort of thing. How..

Howard: Oh my goodness.

Sue: I mean, it's a big topic.

Howard: No, it's, it's, uh, the answer is yes. Um, not with my dad. Not, not, uh, cause, cause we weren't expecting it. My mom, when you look at it, it's true to her character, I suppose. The Christmas day was the 25th, but so the official Christmas, which was a Sunday, like I'm saying the 25th Christmas day, duh, but Sunday the 25th, it was a Sunday. So the official Christmas day for work would be the 26th, right?

She fell and broke her hip at two o'clock in the morning or something like that on the 26th. And so this was a year when Southwest screwed up their software. so there were all these flight delays and we were having a storm here and just my getting there. didn't get there when I found out what it is. I didn't get there till Tuesday afternoon. And I did speak to the doctor, the hospice doctor. And I said, how long does my mom have? Cause she wasn't

Howard (17:15.018)

Awake, she was breathing, you know, I thought she was resting. What it was is she was unresponsive and she was shutting down because of the morphine I them to give. I'm not in the field, right? He said she has weeks. Okay. She has weeks. I thought I'm here for a few weeks. If I need anything, I'll have people ship it down, but I'm staying here for weeks. He did say the next 48 hours would be telling, but he didn't tell me what that means. Now, I don't think I'm an idiot but I didn't know that that means she could die. 

I, that evening, if I had known she could die, that which she did like at one in the morning, I would have one put Alexa in the room and played music that she was listening to. Two, I would have made a makeshift bed, even though I hadn't slept, I would have made it there. Fortunately, the caregiver said, Howard, get in here quick. that, so.

My guilt was over that I didn't do those things. And I, that's one of the guilts. And I read in a book, you know, there's all these different support things you could have. And they said, don't feel guilty, feel sorry.

Sue: Oh, right.

Howard (18:28.246)

And then the other thing I felt somewhat guilty is, you know, my mother two months before called me up and was crying, I don't want to live. I don't, I've had enough. I've had enough pain. And she did that several times after that. But you know what? You say it and then comes the moment. And even though she was in hospice, which she had agreed to, and she got on hospice because of her dementia, which wasn't that far along, but apparently,

That is that that gets you right into hospice. Hmm. So which I didn't know until then you have dementia, you could get into hospice and. And the hospice, because they were half short staffed on the official Christmas day, they sent you to the hospital. Oh, even though she broke her hip. It's like why, you know, but that that's why it was short staffed. That's my theory anyway. So. But.

I don't think she would have qualified for surgery to fix the hip. She had wanted it. I would have hoped she would say no. Cause who knows what that would, her quality of life would have been like if my father woke up with a bump on his head, I would hope she would have said no, but I never had the opportunity to ask her. I was going to, spoke to her on Monday night. She was in the ambulance. Her words were slurring, but she knew they were slurring. And I felt like that

Sue: Right.

Howard (19:55.456)

I was playing God in that moment. I didn't know if I could get her back to the hospital. My brother was in New York. I was in San Francisco. He was away. He was away. was, you so, know, I have to believe this is what she would have. She wouldn't have wanted it anyway. That's what, that's how I came peace to it. 

But absolutely you'll have guilt. And what I'll say though is those were my guilt. It wasn't about, I wish I had said this to them or that to them, you know, but those. I think guilt is just natural, but when you hold onto it, that's not benefiting you as the person holding onto it. And I don't think that's in service to the person who left.

Sue: Yeah.

Sue (20:39.958)

Right, right, right. Yeah, it's a tough one. It's a tough one, I think of emotions that come up, you know, and of course, these are emotions that come up, you know, in different situations, not just in grief, but you know, anger, you know, you certainly have a lot of stress, anxiety, you know, all of those things certainly follow. mean, sadness, obviously, with grief.

Howard: Yeah, I don't know if this is, I don't know what this is, but I, so mom died at the, well, like December 27th or something. So we're in LA, we went back East because that's where they're buried. And when I got back, I caught COVID. And so we were, now this is 2023, so I guess it's the first time I had COVID. Yeah, 2023, but I had to clear out her place.

So I'm there, but I found out I had COVID. I took the test because she had them down there. The day I got back there. And I never got a fever, but the cough in my chest is something I never felt before. I'm like, wow, what if I hadn't gotten vaccinated? And the boosters and all that. But I wouldn't take a sleeping pill because I was concerned about that. But it was really bad. But what a place to be.

I found some Vicks, you know, they had, my mother had the rotating bed so I could elevate the bed. And I thought, okay, maybe I should get an emergency bag, like with my charger and all that. But I had a vision of both of them. I mean, it was really weird. of them and they look very happy. I think my mom was having a drink, one drink and she always was a little, and so I felt, I took that as a nice sign, you know?

Sue: Yeah, yeah, that's that's nice. That is a nice sign. The the I want to go back to you know, you mentioned the shock for your dad, you know, because he really didn't expect that at all. And how about your mom? How was she also shocked about your dad? 

Howard: 22:35.48)

Yeah.

Howard (22:58.99)

We absolutely were. He always said he would live to 120 and then maybe five years for good luck. what's interesting, Sue, is I used to think, oh, I'd rather have my body than my mind. No, you want your minds. And, know, he wasn't that active a lot. He slept more, of course. But he had his routine and he had his habits. Right. One thing

Sue: Yeah.

Howard: I believe I put in the book what I realized, you as they were getting older, I asked, what did you do this morning? And they said, I had breakfast. And they were dead serious about that. You know, if you or I said we had breakfast, like, God, we wasted, you know, the morning. But then it got to a while where I would have, particularly with just my mom. Did you eat today or what did you eat? That's. 

Sue: Right.

Howard: But what I found.is we all need to feel significant and important in a certain way. And I remember when my dad broke his hip and he was in the rehab center and he, I was the only one there and he painfully got up to go to the bathroom to clean his false teeth. And I was watching him and I thought, I don't think there's anyone on this planet who's more focused in what they're doing than he is right now.

Howard: (24:19.372)

And maybe that's what life is about in that moment, right? you know, so he was, and I forgot your question that I brought up that story.

Sue: No, I was just going back to the shock well, how that affected your mother, yeah.

Howard: to the shock my mother. I would say big time in that. I asked my brother used to joke with me. He said, no wonder dad didn't want hearing aids. He didn't want to hear her all the time, but he was like, he was, they were there together. They were through it all. So she didn't have that. She didn't have that. It was, it was a big, it was huge. She, she tried. She really did try. And then there were just things that got her. Yeah.

Sue  (25:04.984)

Yeah.

Sue (25:09.326)

yeah, that's, know, I was reading, I'm reading this book and it's about the brain and grief and how, how the, what the brain has to do with grief. Right. And one of the, points that this, author makes, this scientist, is that there's a part of your brain that actually keeps track of people that you love.   It's six o'clock - This is when I hear this door open that, that I know somebody's, you know, so-and-so is coming home and I have dinner on the table. And that's like your brain has that in their head, in your head. And then, or encoded, I guess, when that person isn't there and the door opens, you still think, so he's coming home from work and I better get dinner on the table.

Howard: She, I don't remember when it started, but she thought she saw him there. Or she would say, she said, is your dad sleeping in the back room? Or she even said, I know he's dead, but can he come to the cafe with us? And I took that as normal signs of, of loss, not necessarily the dementia part. We didn't, you know, we had to differentiate between that. 

Right. How do you do that? I don't know. mean, she even said once, because she when she got the dementia, she goes, how will I know what's real or not? I didn't know how to answer that. But so she saw him, One time I made her laugh when she said she saw him. said, what was he wearing?

Sue: Right, yeah.

Howard: (26:49.71)

And she laughed, you know, but I get that. Yeah. The loss was, was quite hard for her, but they were married for, you know, 60 some odd years. So, yeah. Yeah. And you did mention something at the very beginning that we haven't talked about. And, and, know, I know you did a podcast on the loss of a pet. Right. And that's huge too, but you know, it was interesting because

Howard (27:17.602)

Yes, it's natural that parents go first. Parents want to go before their children, right? That's right. It's a natural progression, but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. I remember, and you know, each family is going to be different, but I do know, the guy who cuts my hair said to me, you know, my parents left when I was in my thirties. I imagine when you were a lot older, it could be even harder because you're so used to having them. And so, you know, they've been my life for 60 years, you know?

Sue: Right, right. Yeah. And that's really interesting. And I think you and I were chatting about this in our first earlier conversation that I remember when I was one of my first jobs out of college and a woman that I worked with, father had passed away. So this is in the early 80s.

Sue(28:19.136)

And he was 90 something, 95 or something. And I remember saying to another coworker, I feel bad. You know, her dad just died and the coworker was saying, what are you talking about? He was 95. And I was like, yeah, but it's still her dad. Yeah.

Howard: Right. Most people, you have to try to ignore it, you know, necessarily not look for those comments. It's kind of like getting back to the whole levity doesn't have to just be humor. has it's what you look on fondly, right? It's about remembering certain stories. Or if you're in the moment of some very stressful things going on, if you're in it, how can you reframe it?

Which is interesting, Sue, because part of the work I do teaching management and leadership skills for managers is how do you ask questions? When you ask someone, why isn't that project done on time? You're not going to get a great answer as opposed to what's prevented you from bringing the project in. That's the same thing you can do with siblings or in a situation. I'm not saying that's easy. We didn't do that all the time, but you just reframe it and see if something else can come up.

So that's a form of levity. So yeah, is. mean, levity is lighter heartedness. And so there's many ways to achieve that.

Sue (29:42.392)

Did you find, or not did you find, but what resources did you find that were very helpful to you, certainly after your parents died, in terms of helping you with your grief, but maybe even before, what were the resources that you found?

Howard: For which? To help them get services or to help me 

Sue: No, to help you. To help me. 

Howard:Okay, while they were alive, what helped me was trying to keep, not trying, but keeping a semblance of priorities for me. I mean, I have a business. had to still run that. But I still wanted to play tennis, play bridge. I mean, it's kind of, I left my phone on a lot. You you just have to...

Howard (30:39.212)

take their calls. That kind of and I lived, I didn't live in the same town. I went down there two or three times a month. Right. I was down, you know, and at some point I used to, well, I actually even in 2020 I flew more than usual, it was a lot of driving. But as my brother rightly pointed out, he's there. So if something happens, he's like 20, 30 minutes away, he's there and that's added pressure. And I can see that having been there when my mom went and there was no one there. 

So I had that able to separate it for even if it's just, you know, I could play tennis and nothing, I wouldn't be bothered. But I mean, I was on the phone with him several times a day, but I kept a semblance of my life. Although it was the number one thing and everyone was like, how are your parents? I mean, that was a common thing. 

And actually the night before my father died, someone at poker said, how are your parents? said, they're fine. You know, so I was like, you know, that's, that's, mean, I appreciated people asking, that's how I kept it for myself.

Sue: Yeah, yeah. And then when after

Howard: And I was gonna say, my brother and I at one point tried to make an effort. Let's talk about some other things. didn't, as we went on, that couldn't work, but you know, so just trying to figure out, but I'm sorry I interrupted you.

Sue (32:01.248)

Now I was just wondering, were there other outside resources that you were able to take advantage of that helped you?

Howard: I was, while they were alive, I had wanted us to go. There are people specializing, whatever kind of therapy, my parents refused. They refused. And, you know, looking at that probably because it was probably more for us and they just didn't want to do it, you know, whatever it was going to be. They refused that. And so there's nothing we could do about that. I mean, the home care agencies were a big, were a big help, especially when they were there overnight. That was a big relief because that was only that was way after my father died. It was only the last six months or so that my mom had it. had we had a care all the time. You know, you have that phone on and who knows? Yeah.

Sue (33:04.558)

Right. All right. Did you, or no, not did you. How has writing this book helped you heal? Talk a little bit about that.

Howard: Right. Well, first you also said there are other resources. I looked at other books and the... I used to be right. I'm looking at my desk that way. The Compassion Hotline from the place that we... The Dignity Network. And I actually called them once. You know, I did call. 

But how the book helped me... Well, initially it was just something I had written over 350 Word documents, with doctors appointments, thought, what do I do with all this? What do I do? And I have written two other books. These are all self published. The first book was when I was a coach and I used to do like weekly marketing. And it was about three things I learned from a situation, the book, which I need to get updated. It's called, you're full of shift. And then I have a book towards management skills, but this is very personal. And I just thought I'm writing this. 

And I remember in March of 2023, I put an outline when I was back down in LA getting, I had rented a car to take up because my brother, I had left stuff there. And then I just started writing it throughout. So it brought back some of the experience that we went through. I don't, when someone goes through something, I don't know, you don't necessarily call it trauma, but some stressful situation. If you don't process it, sure.

Sue: Yeah. Sure. Absolutely.

Howard (34:48.024)

So I think it helped me do that. And it was May of 2024 that I read it out loud to my friends, because we were proofing through it. And as I read it out loud, I was like, wow, this is stressful. Not the reading out loud, but what I was experiencing, what I had gone through. So it was very helpful that way. And when my brother read it, he said, you know, he knew I did a lot. And he appreciated it, but he might not have said it because he was going to do it a lot also, but he didn't know how much I was doing. Right. And I thought, wow, I wasn't expecting that. But your question is, so how did it help me? It just helped me to move forward with it. And then though, what was amazing, Sue, is other people read it. And their thoughts and how it affected them, like the one line I put the throw, I think it was somewhat of a

Howard (35:46.262)

row away line where I didn't like being called a good son. I thought it was a dutiful son. Because some of the thoughts I had, I don't think were good. And at least one or two people said, I identify with that. I'm like, OK. It's kind of. And then people whose parents had passed, it brought back those memories. And I thought, wow, this is so, that's.

Sue: Yeah.

Howard (36:13.774)

Because we don't as a society necessarily talk about this stuff, right?

Sue: Yeah, and you don't. you know, the challenges that you face, you know, it's that, you know, anticipatory grief or what's going to happen, or I don't know how to handle that, you know, just all of those emotions are, you're right, you need to find a way to process them. And you mentioning that book or that hotline, that compassion hotline that you were able to you know, get get help to quote unquote, you know, from those are just get

Howard: It was help. Yeah, it was.

Sue: Yeah, and maybe, I don't know what the book was, but a lot of times, books that I've read to help me processing, all of a sudden you remember something, or you think like, yeah, I can relate to that.

Howard (37:21.078)

Right. I read snippets of books. My attention span wasn't that that. Sure. And I wish I there's a book I recommend to a lot of people. It's for middle aged from the heart. I don't remember the name of it. I have it. It's in the other room, So. But I do do say I did look with Kaiser and they I look to see about getting support. But when I looked at their questions, I feel fortunate I wasn't…I could sleep, I could function, right? I was just, I knew what I was going through was completely normal. Right, sometimes it's hard to know what's maybe what's not. Like if you break up with somebody, you need to grieve.

Sue (38:08.546)

Yes, yes.

Howard: But if you decide to like wonder what they're doing and follow them all the time, that may not be normal, right? So it's like, when you have a loss, you're going, there is a grief depending on who it is, how, you know, there's no, I still grieve, you know, it's like, it's completely normal to do it. Right. Well, you say, of course, of course, but you know, that's, some people may not, think, oh, I should be over this by now, right?

Sue: Right. Yeah. And that's the misnomer, right? It's like there's this and there's this and there's this and it's, you and I should be fine in three months. It's like, well, not really.

Howard: Because we're taking like our work goals in trying to PowerPoint and put goals and timelines on things that you can't do. I just thought of that right now. I mean, you know, can't. It doesn't mean you don't. I could see someone at work while I'm still grieving. That's why I'm not doing my job. That's not what I'm saying here at all. It's just it ebbs and flows.

Sue: Yeah.

Howard (39:20.716)

It is this past Mother's Day for the last, this is the third without my mother. So I've called her friend, but a friend of mine said, well, what are you going to honor her? said, are you kidding? What is, what am I doing with all the, with the book? mean, looking to, looking to, you know, possibly give more talks on the book, but it's like, bring them up all the time. There's nothing special I need to do on Mother's Day. And I, know, it's just a day, right? It's, it's, it's something every day that one thinks about, right? You think, I've heard plenty of people, right? How often do you think about them? All the time. How do you know?

Sue: Well, Howard, do you have any other last thoughts, anything that you want to share with with our audience?

Howard: With, well, I think we, I mean, it's, I will say that for those who were listening, thinking, levity is humor. I'm not necessarily funny. Again, I want to emphasize and on my website, I have the, how can you achieve levity? And part of it is telling stories, right? Part of it is shifting your perspective, which I said about the questions. It can be…

Sue: Right.

Howard(40:38.418)

slight self-deprecation and let me give you something that I mean by that. When I was starting to take care of my parents, a friend of mine was taking, his mom wasn't doing well, he was flying back and forth to her. I was 15 years older than him. So it's sad that he has to go through it at his age, but I said to him, at least you have more energy. You know, I'm at the point, I can't sleep on an old couch. I'm sorry. It just doesn't work for me. No, you know what I mean?

And it's funny, but it got to be more so saying at some points I said, how old, how young do you think? And so there's a reality of that, you know, cause middle, what does middle age? say 40 and over at some, know, it's a shift. But, know, there's a big difference as you, as you start getting older. So you think that can maybe help. know, it's like, so, so those are.

Sue: Yeah.

Howard: So there's different ways to get some, you're in a very stressful situation as you're taking care, however much you are taking care of your parents, right? How do you make it just a little lighter? That's the point. And there could be probably ways that I haven't thought of right here, probably ways that aren't healthy for you either. But that's a whole other thing right? There's, which some people do, some people overeat, some will under eat, I suppose, but

What can you do for self care? And that's a form of levity. that's it. Self care is a form of levity.

Sue (42:14.321)

I like that.

Howard: I'm actually writing that down right now on my other computer.

Sue (42:22.446)

I will link to your website about the levity. I'll put that in the show notes. Yeah, because I think that's helpful.

Howard: And yeah, I mean, other, think I appreciate you reading the book.

Sue: Well, thank you. Yeah, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. I liked the little I liked all the stories.

Howard: And I think everyone has stories. I think I wrote at the end, even the problems weren't problems. When you reflect back, and this will get after my dad, when I looked at trees and thought, how long do these trees live here? We're just specks. We just go and And yeah, we're gonna be pissed off at things still. But when you reflect, most of them, you

It doesn't matter. doesn't matter. so that's, you know, to so being more it's again, though, it's a very it's very tough. But be good to yourself. And it's going to end. It ends.

Sue (43:32.312)

Right, right, right. I just wanted to close by saying that your point about the stories I think is really important because the one thing about when you're grieving is that you love when somebody says, tell me about your mother. Tell me about your brother. me about this person and why they meant so much to you. That's really important. I think too, and it helps. It helps you process your own grief. And you know, it's an easy thing for somebody to do.

Howard: People are afraid to do that sometimes. The first thing I got is that word condolences. I was like, God, if I hear this multi-syllable word one more time. And then I found, and this is what I say now, there's a Yiddish expression, I think it was a she pronoun, but may their memory be a blessing. So that's what I say to people now. But I agree with you. When I went after they passed, I could go back to traveling, which I love to do, and I could work anywhere.

Howard (44:41.07)

Over a year after my mom passed, I went to the Philippines because a friend lived there. And you you fly overnight. And as soon as I got in the car, my friend says, what was it? How hard was it when your mom passed? And I looked at him and said, can you give me a little time? But I will tell you, and I told him this, that was over a year later. And I appreciated so much the questions he had after that time. Because, you know, people don't, We all don't always think about that because everything moves on as it's supposed to, but it's nice to get that every once in a while.

Sue: Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you, Howard, for for this chat. I really enjoyed the conversation. And I will have all that information in the show notes to your website. And thank you, listeners. And we will see you in the next episode. Bye for now.

Howard: Thank you.