Gold Scars: Healing Through Grief and Vulnerability With Sylvia Moore Meyers

Summary:

In this episode of the Growth from Grief podcast, host Sue Andersen speaks with Sylvia Moore Myers, author of 'Gold Scars', about her journey through grief and trauma after the loss of her son. Sylvia shares her insights on the importance of addressing unresolved grief, the impact of trauma on relationships, and the healing power of vulnerability and laughter. She introduces her seven steps to healing and emphasizes the significance of reframing memories to aid recovery. The conversation highlights the necessity of sharing scars to help others with their wounds and provides resources for those seeking support in their grief journey.

Thank you for listening!   Visit www.sueandersenyoga.com for Yoga for Grief classes and additional resources.

Transcript

Hi everyone, welcome to the Growth from Grief podcast. I'm your host, Sue Andersen. And we are so privileged to speak with Sylvia Moore Myers, who is the author of the book, Gold Scars.  Sylvia and I have chatted a couple of times and I'm so happy that she's able to join us.

So welcome Sylvia, thank you for joining.

Thank you for having me Sue, I appreciate it.

So I thought maybe it would be great for our audience to hear a little bit. So I gave a little introduction, but I think it would be nice if you talked a little bit more, if it's a little bit more about yourself. Exactly.

Yeah, I am the author of Gold Scars, The Truth About Grief, Loss and Trauma and How to Beautifully Mend. Of course, that was written after I lost my son and after I went through grief recovery that I discovered didn't start with my son but went all the way back to early childhood and brought me forward. In the meantime, after my son passed, I finished my bachelor's degree.

Then I recently finished my master's degree in crisis trauma counseling. And I'm about halfway through my PhD. I'll have a doctor of education in traumatology, is crisis informed counseling. And when someone says, why are you doing that? It's like, well, I need to put my mouth where my money is. 

I set out to tell the world how to resolve grief in your life and how to mend. And I want to take it to that next level. I want to help as many people as possible. The book came because I was helping two or three people at a time. And I thought, I'll write the book. More people will read it. Lots of people will get help. And they'll do that same thing I did. Was it really that easy? And so, you know, and I give a lot of things on my website for free. So please go there and get the free stuff.

But it is truly because I have a passion to help people with grief, especially parents or people who have lost someone very close to them. Because recent studies show, what is it, three quarters of parents who lose a child will have advanced grief and PTSD. Statistically, that's not the norm. Statistically, about 20 % of us get stuck in grief after a loss, but in particularly parents tend to get and develop the additional signs and symptoms after about six months. 

And there's not a lot of research and there's not a lot of courses on it. I was surprised to find the research still as of 2024. And I just put a paper out this week about it. There's not a combination grief and trauma classes that actually do both at the same time. So I'm to develop.

That's great. It's wonderful. think a couple of things that you just said that struck me because I can relate to that. First thing that you said was you went to your own recovery, your own grief recovery, and discovered that it had to start way back way back. 

I went in and of course I was stubborn. I really am, you know, probably the reason I'm academic is because I'm a skeptic of everything. And you got to prove it to me. I want to see it on a 25 page with a, you know, with a reference sheet to make me believe it. But I didn't want to go to grief recovery. I didn't want to read the books people were sending me. I didn't want to hear it, you know, and but I was suffering. 

And when I finally broke down and I went to grief recovery, I was just, I was amazed that it, and you go in thinking, I'm going to grief recovery, the loss of my son that just happened. And you find out that you're grief recovering the ill treatment as a child or the neglect and abuse and every bad event that happened to you from your earliest memory, through and past the mother of your child. And for me, that was life-changing.

Yeah. you know, the other thing about that is if, if you, if you aren't able to do that, if you don't have the resources, for example, that you had, and you're not able to do that, or you're not working with a person that, you know, makes that connection, then it pops up x years later. It pops up, it's not going to just stay there it festers and it comes up and you have to deal with it. That's okay. You're dealing with it.

Yeah. that's OK. It's obvious. Well, you know, we repeat what we don't repair. And my life was a pattern like an airplane in a circling around the airport. It just never changed. I got in a bad relationship. I was cheated on. I got in another bad relationship. I was abused. I got in another relationship for the wrong reasons. it's like, and my life was a catastrophe of bad decisions based on the trauma and unresolved grief issues from early on. And I think that's why I said I had this epiphany. 

It's like, wow, I need to tell the whole world about this because this is good stuff right here. Can I go back and change what happened? No. No. No, I appreciate the life God gave me. He gave me these experiences for a reason, and I'm putting them to good use right now. I'm repeating the bad stuff anymore because I resolved it. You repair it.

Yeah.

Yeah, you won't repeat it. And that's what grief recovery really is. It's a whole look at the whole person, the whole body, being healthy. And I talk about that in the book, all the H's. I call them the 7 H's, healing and healthy and habits and holiness and being happy again and laughing, being hilarity. All of those are good medicine. And they're all important elements of the total recovery from grief and loss.

Yeah. You know, you there's a sentence in your book, "I was searching for an eraser, but the whole time I needed a highlighter."  I love that. Can you talk about that? 

Yeah, know, anyone who's going through grief, what you're really trying to do is suppress it. You're just like, I'm not going to think about it. It's not going to bother me anymore. I'm not going to deal with it. And you're just constantly looking for a way to wipe that out. That's not how you you heal. We scar. We're human beings. We're not a chameleon. You know, I can't grow back something I lose. Right. God made us heal on purpose. And I think that the reason he did is because when we mend, we mend, scar. 

So that's why I call it mend beautifully. Because people with wounds are looking for people with scars. I think it's a testament to what we've been through. We've survived that, and now we want to be that example. I was trying to erase what happened and pretend like it didn't happen and change my life in that direction.

And what I really need to do is bring it out and whip it up a little bit, you know, tell it how it really makes me feel. And then the healing actually starts once you announce it to yourself. It's a strange concept. In psychology, it's really just it's not really suppression. It's emotion focused. So you want your client to emotionally deal with the trauma that happened again.

And it sounds like it's torture. You're torturing the poor person, right? But in actuality, you're having them deal with it emotionally so that they can adjust what those emotions look like and where they sit in their mind and their brain. And it's a revelation. And that's what cures and heals people with trauma and therapy. And for grief, it has the same effect. And they just happen to be side by side in most cases. So but yeah, it's exposing it on purpose and then mending from that.

Yeah, and it's and it's can be scary because you're you just don't know what's it's that fear. It's that fear of I don't know what's going to happen if I start if I start crying. I'm not going to stop.

Vulnerability. Yeah. yes, it is vulnerable. And yes, you will cry. And that's what I'm here for. As a counselor on a one-on-one or whether in a group, crying is part of it. It's welcomed. mean, silence is welcomed. But tears are great. Make sure you bring the tissues, because we're going to cry. It's a good cry. Because we're also going to laugh our butts off. And it's rewarding experience.

Should grief recovery something be in your life? Because I promise you, even if you've lost no one, there's something in your life that you can recover from.

There's a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of loss you talk about in the book and maybe you can talk a little bit more about the book because you do go through quite a bit.

Wow, and it's my books of murder mystery, but it really happened. Yeah It can be triggering so I warn everybody yes, please read it but so I after my son died, of course, He was on his way home teenager in college. got a snickers bar and a Mountain Dew got back in the truck with a friend of his another young person pulled up and shot him point blank and

He was an organ donor the next day. And you get that call in the middle of the night. Well, it was not too late, but it was late enough. And you're rushing to the hospital thinking, I don't think he's going to make it. And I don't even know why. They wouldn't even tell us what happened. I just knew that he wasn't at our local hospital. He was 30 minutes away. There's a big problem. Right. So but that was horrible. I had a 16 year old and a seven year old who had no clue.

And my husband and I, we'd been married, golly, at that point, probably eight years. We were actually newlyweds in a way. Our marriage did this completely. We're good friends now, but oof, I didn't want to be around him anymore. And life changed. My children changed. They grieved differently. And I was floundering. had no idea what to do.

Eight months after my son's murder, a want-to-be serial killer follows me home, I kid you not, and tried to kill me in my driveway. I was his fourth victim, not his first. None of us died, but I was the only one that got the license plate because he threw me down behind the bars. He told the police that night that he just wanted to kill someone. And for some reason, it was me.

I don't think God puts us in bad positions, but I think for me it was kind of the camel that broke the straws back. Was like, everything just went to heck. Eventually I found grief recovery. So I march into grief recovery. I'm going to recover my son. And I start dealing with, they say, what's the first memory that you have? Very important part of therapy is what's your earliest memory as a child?

Not good or bad, just what is it? And then let's timeline your life. And right now I'm 63 going on 64 when I went in for that. I was still an old person. But I had lots of years to put on that timeline. And then we started talking about bad things that happened. My grandmother died when I was young in my house. And I was standing there with her. My babysitter had committed suicide when I was about eight, I think.

The one thing that I focused on that I kept going back to over and over again was I never held my mother's hand. She's never done my hair. We never shopped together. I was one of 10 children, six down and five up, you And I had a non-nurturing mom with a high IQ and Asperger's, we found out after she died. But that non-nurturing affected my entire life and my self-esteem, how I thought about myself.

My bad relationship choices and it affected many things that happened to me after that. I also found out that I was autistic, which was a revelation. It's like, wow, wish someone would have told me when I was a kid. But because I went through bullying, getting beat up, sexual harassment and abuse. And I had a whole life experience of it over and over like that pattern that I said it just keeps on coming around.

And so I started grief recovering all of that. You ever been to church when someone gets saved? I mean, they truly get saved and they're just like their whole life and they're just jumping up and that's how I felt. But I was just amazed that I'd been holding all of that in. And then I just started grief recovering everything. And then I became a grief recovery specialist.

When I got back into classes and I got in the school and became a master degree. Business at that point, but but yeah, the floodgates had opened and you can't stop me now.

Grief recovery is a program right? I just want to make sure that

Multiple programs for grief.  There's on my level as a counselor in crisis trauma, I can counsel people through grief alone or through grief and trauma either. And the programs have to be made for them. There's multiple books that are great. And most grief recovery, I'm sorry, colleges and authors of this subject say that if you have a really good book, a manual of some kind that can complement the scientific part of the process, it's always better because it gives somebody something tangible. So someone can grief recovery through my book. You can grief recovery from my website from the seven steps. It's free download. 

And the grief recovery manual. And then there's grief program that they sell to churches which is really good. I've looked at all of them. There's not a bad grief recovery program, but there are not a lot of really good grief recovery specialists, and that's the big problem right now. You need more of them. We do. lots of

I wanted to ask you to talk a little bit about the methodology. So you've got that, I know you have the framework, but let's talk about the seven to heal for a second. How you came up with that?

Yeah, sure, sure. I wanted an easy way, you know, get on the back of a bookmark thing. I wanted a really easy way for people to remember what they read, at least carry that with them. Right. So I put it in the process in the process and I assigned an H to everything to make it just really easy. But the first process is help, you know, knowing that you need help and actually focusing your energy to do it. The same analogy everyone uses when the mask comes down in the airplane, you put it on yourself first and then the person sitting next to you. I could not help anyone in my family, my children, no one until I got help for myself. Then I could. And then I really regretted not doing it sooner. So if you know you need help, don't be shy. Call me, but just make that decision that you're going to do something about it because you don't have to live like this. 

You can be happy again. Healing. It's just that process of knowing that you need to heal and starting that process as well. You can't heal unless you want to. I mean, just to be honest, you just really can't. It's a mindset, you know? 

And then being healthy. I call it studying what you eat, not watching what you eat, because a lot of us watch what we eat. You need to study it. How many carbs? How many calories? Why is your heart racing? It's probably from the carb intake at breakfast. And just treat your body. like the temple that it is. What goes in comes out. Good in, good out. And I think when people learn how to eat healthy, it changes your life. It changes your skin, changes your hair, it changes your body, and it changes your mindset. So being healthy is the third most important thing. Hope. 

Number four is hope because you have something to be hopeful for. A lot of people think that they don't. In the Bible itself, the word hope just reappears constantly for a reason. We are hopeful that we'll have a better day tomorrow. We hope it might rain. I hope I feel better again. I hope this grief subsides. Be hopeful in something and have that because to say that you're hopeful for nothing is untrue. Find out what it is that you want and ask for it. And by the way, articulating something makes it appear. It's magic. 

Holiness, also known as worthiness. A lot of people will say, well, you I don't feel very holy. I feel like God doesn't care about me. It's like, you know, God really loves losers. You I was a loser. God used me anyway. David was a loser. He cheated, you know, and, you know, Samson was a murderer. you know, who did, and Rahab was a prostitute. There you go. And Sylvia was a jerk. And so, and he used us anyway. So we all have that ability to be worthy and they're worthy in you and you should feel worthy and holy and not let anybody take that away from you. 

Six is happiness. You can be happy no matter what. I think that you can fake happy sometimes because it's endorphins, all those good chemicals that go in your brain when you smile. Fake it a little bit till you make it because actually just smiling puts those processes in your brain. But find something to smile about. Watch a funny movie. You know, you can be down, being down is normal, but finding a way to get up is even better. So find something to be fun and happy. Read the cartoons again. I love reading the cartoons. I get the newspaper once a week for the cartoons. Old school girl, man, I'm telling you. 

And then the last one is hilarious. How can you laugh out loud when something tragic has happened? I'll tell you how. The morning of my son's funeral, my brother had just flown in and he came down with his wife and his ex-wife, who's my very dear friend, also flew down. And they ended up booking the flight together and didn't know it. And they ended up sitting on the front row, the three of them, side by side. So that's pretty fun, right? Ex-wife and wife. So the steward finds out about it and he grabs a mic and goes, is anyone flying with their wife today? So you know, people raise their hands.

And then he goes, is anyone also flying with their ex-wife today? And my brother stands up and turns around to everyone on the plane and goes, my girlfriend was going to try to fly, but we had to put her on the next flight down. The whole manifesto of humans laughed their butts off on that plane.  He told that story the morning of Jacob's funeral in the kitchen with everybody standing around. And guess what we all did? We laughed our butts off.

Of course.

Yeah. You know, so give yourself permission as often as possible to laugh your ass off, you know, honestly, it's super healthy. And those processes really just kind of set in motion your whole frame of mind that you want to heal. And you're going to get from feeling hopeless to being able to laugh your butt off and to be hilarious. So that's what that means. 

And then S.C.A.R, I'll tell you briefly about S.C.A.R. People ask me to start talking about grief and I usually, I say, I don't want to talk about fluff and stuff. I want to talk about the scar, the hard truth. That's why I put scars on my face on the book cover. Because they also serve as a way for you to remember what you have inside of you already that helps you to recover. And that's the S-C-A-R, strength, courage, adaptability and resilience pre-wired in you right now. 

You're walking around. All you got to do is turn them on, right? And so you've got that strength, courage is something you drum up, right? That's part of wanting to heal, wanting to get help. And then adaptability is, you know, it's not like resilience. It's really just saying, I am willing to change my patterns, my habits. I'm going to adapt to this. This is, I'm not going to change it. You know, I don't need to forget what happened to my son and myself. I need a better way to remember. And that's what you're doing with that mindset. 

And then of course, resilience, it's in there. It's that bounce back quality that human beings have, God given, pre-wired into our DNA, tap into it and use it because you got it.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, all great, all great advice, the laughter one. You know, it's, it's funny, because I just remember probably the first year after my son had died, I was with two women that I had just met, like I was, I had met the year before, because I lost my job. And so I was volunteering. And their kids, their kids were younger than Ian. So we could have conversations because I could talk about when he was that age of their kids. And my gosh, we laughed our butts off of, you know, just talking about these different stories. And then all of a sudden I was like, my God, I'm laughing and my son's dead. You you have to get over that. It takes a little bit to get over that.

Well, that's all right. You didn't forget about him. You're actually remembering stories with these other folks. So it's not like you forgot. That kind of takes you, you know, like, can't be laughing. You know what I mean? Like, like.

That's right.

Here in therapy, it's called reframing. in the same thing, I don't need a way to forget what happened to my son. I need a better way to remember. It's called reframing. So it's like, yes, what happened to him was terrible. Yes, I got PTSD because I saw it with my own eyes and it was horrific. I saw him on the gurney. I don't need that part. I need to remember the fun things and the loving things and to reframe my memories of him.

When I die, I already told all my kids that no one's allowed to wear black first, yellow or orange, pick your color. If they come in with anything else on, someone's gonna slap a daisy on them or something, but no black. And I want y'all to tell the funny things that happened to me. I'm picking my own music out so it'll be festive. do I want them to miss me? Yeah, just a little bit. But I don't want it to be the bad things that, you know that they remember. And yeah, feel free to cry. I'm gone, right? But try to remember the fun things about me, all the things that made y'all laugh because I try so hard to make my family laugh at me. My Obi-Wan Kenobi jokes, yeah.

The scars also are significant, I think. Of course, that's reminding us of Kintsugi, the pot of Japanese pottery, which is so beautiful. 

Do you have one? Oh, nice. Yeah. It's so beautiful. You know, I think because if you have something physically wrong with you, you actually have a scar or you have that incision or, you know, that turned into a scar.

I have plenty.

And, but this, there's no scar, it's visible. And so having that, having that little bit of an image, I think it's helpful. I think it's helpful.

It does, I think for me it was empowering that you can see, I can see the scars from my three C-sections and where I had my hip replaced a few years ago. And every time I burned myself trying to get something out of the oven, pot roast, turkey, just know what they all are. But when you talk about the scars on the heart, they're actually there and you can feel them.

Yes.

When they were painting the gold scars on my face and we were creating that book cover, I was empowered by that. I'm like, these are my scars that are invisible that I'm pulling out and showing to the world. And I think it's important because I think it's the fear of sharing and rejection and going to therapy and not anybody taking you seriously or you get embarrassed.

None of that's true. That's not how it is when you go. Therapy is not a sign of weakness. If you would have listened to my mother, you would have never gone to therapy because nobody gets involved in the family business. It was like the mafia. We don't go to therapy and don't talk to anybody at your school. Now I'm that person. I'm the one who's going to talk to your kids. And you want me to. But just the opposite is true.

Right, right. Don't tell me.

You know, actually pulling it out and talking to it. And I tell them, take grief out wherever you're hiding it, slap it around a little bit and tell it how it really makes you feel because it's empowering.

Well, it is. also, every single person that you talk to in the world has some loss. And whether it's recent or it's not exactly the same. All of a sudden, if you're sharing, or they recognize that you're a person that's talked about this, then they feel very comfortable telling you their story. And well, now they got a load off their mind and body and spirit, you know.

Well, remember the two key concepts we talked about when we first started this conversation. People with wounds are looking for people with scars. So they go, how did you do that? How did you're like, I can't wait to tell you. Very, very important concept. And then the other one is, is unless you repair it, you're going to repeat it. So the sooner you can help someone that's scarred and hasn't really
dealt with that loss in one way or another, and they're still carrying it around as if it was yesterday. Until they deal with it, they're going to keep repeating that over and over again in their life. I've seen it with my own eyes.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm sure. I'm sure. Yeah. I have another quote from the book that I wanted you to talk about. You say, "because heartbreak is a brain issue, we must show our brain how to heal". Can you talk about that?

Yeah, I think we forget that everybody says, you know, the feelings are all in the heart. And I get that, you even God says he has a heart of love for us. But really everything chemically is happening up here, you know, and it's just retraining your brain. Remember that I don't need to forget what happened to my son. I need a better way to remember. You need to reframe it in your brain, you know, and rethink it and journal it. 

One really effective way to deal with someone that has hurt you in the past, whether they're alive or not, is to write a letter to resolve the issue. Dear mom, I'm really sorry that we didn't have a close relationship. I miss that. I regret never being able to sit in your lap or shop with you or even talk about girl things. But mom, I just learned some things about you that make my heart just bleed for you. And I just want you to know that I love you and I can't wait to see you and have it.

And that's it. That's a resolution with my mom, right? That was basically the letter I wrote, except it was like three pages long. But to the man that tried to attack me and kill me, I didn't write that letter. The letter is different. And the letter is, I'm sorry that something in your brain, that you were addicted to drugs, that you just felt a need. I'm sorry that that happened and I'm sorry that it was me, but I'm not going to let that bother me anymore. I'm putting this event behind me and I'm not going to let this bother me. I'm not going to think about it anymore. And that is a resolution as well. So I didn't tell him I forgive him, not really. mean, in one letter to the man that killed my son, that one that I wrote, I told him, I forgive you. It was meth that caused him to do that and he didn't know my son.

You know, didn't make a bit of all. And he was just a kid himself and now he's spending the rest of his life in prison. So, you know, I told him in my letter that I never sent to him because you don't send the letter, right, for yourself. But what it does in your brain is it resolves it. You have to put all that down and reframe it in your brain and really make that decision that you're really simply just not going to let it bother you anymore. It's an amazing feeling. And that's what you want to do when you reframe your brain. Change that, change the way you're thinking about it. Don't be the victim. There's enough of them out there. You don't need to be a martyr. know, move on. It happened, you can't change it, now resolve it.

Yeah, yeah. I also found that very helpful. Along my path, I had to do a similar thing and write a letter. And it's kind of amazing that all that you feel like, yeah, I was suddenly like, okay, I don't even know what I did with the letter, but I didn't need the letter. I didn't need it anymore. I wrote it.

And then whatever I did with it, probably threw it away, tore it up or something, know, some kind of meaningful. I don't know if I kept it, but I know what you're talking about. It was very, very freeing. you know, you still, it's not that I forgot about that thing. I don't have the emotion attached to it.

Mine is in the filing cabinet, but yeah.

That's exactly it. That is exactly it. You've detached it. And now when you think about it now, it's a memory of something that happened. I can tell you vividly everything that happened that night. I know exactly when I dropped my purse, when my hair came out of my head, when I hit the ground, when I dropped my weight to keep from being put. I remember everything in vivid detail. It doesn't disturb me anymore. It's a memory in a story that I tell other people, but it isn't part of my life. But I've reframed it and I've moved on from.

Yeah, yeah. Can you talk a little bit about, you mentioned early on, resources that you have on your website? And I'd you to just share a little bit of that with our listeners.

Yes, and my website is really easy to find goldscars.com. It's really Linktr.ee/ Goldscars. Everything Goldscar. But yeah, there's a resource that I created, which is basically the Seven to Heal in a smaller version and like a work around, you you call it a, I don't know, you could use it for a class or you could use it for yourself to move through the seven steps and it's free. So you just go and download that PDF.

And you'll also get my weekly newsletter that'll start once you do that. And you can cancel that at any time. But it's really a lot of fun. I try to make the newsletter very fun and tie it to something interesting. And we hit one subject every week. And so that's a lot of fun as well. On the book, if you buy the book from my publisher, which you'll find on that website, say buy from publisher, Books-a-Million, Barnes & Noble. Hit the publisher one.

And you'll see that there's a code that you can put in there at the checkout. If you put MJA, which is my publishers and Morgan James author, MJA40, you'll get 40 % off that book from my publisher. So that's a gift to everyone that's watching and listening. That's unique. Yeah. So I do that. You'll see it also on Linktree, but it says put in MJA20. Put in MJA40 instead. And you'll get the 40, you know, from that area as well. yeah, those are some good resources, making the book as cheap as possible. They're basically taking all of their cut and making it zero so that I'll at least get back the portion of the book from the publisher side of it, from my side. Yeah. But they made their portion free and that's pretty awesome.

That is awesome. That's great.

And if anybody wants a bookmark and you write to me, get my newsletter, just write to me and say, I want the bookmark. I will mail you one.

Nice. Yeah, yeah, I do get the newsletter. It is funny. Great tips, but also kind of, you know,

All good.

Did you go through the Wizard of Oz? Hey, you know what? Grief Recovery is really just a walk down the yellow brick road. You got everything you need right now in you right now. Strength, courage, adaptability, resilience. Those are the red shoots. And the sooner you learn, can click them, the less walking on that road you could do. And we've all got a little Tin Man and Innis, don't we? Yeah. Yeah. They're all part of it.

IT's who we are. So it's a great analogy.

It is. is. Is there anything else that you want to share that we haven't talked about, Sylvia?

No, you know, one of the things that we're talking about in the newsletter, I think right now is the ashes of disaster grow the roses of success. And so from any tragedy, any life experience that you've had, you feel like you've been carrying it around. It's deep and it's set and you feel like there's never going to be a difference. It's untrue. Those are the ashes. Everything's burned down.

You know, everybody came to the funeral without water and instead they said really stupid stuff to you like, there's another angel in heaven. You're going, no, there's not. He's there, but he's not an angel. And other things that people say for whatever reason. You feel like everything's just burnt down around and you're covered in ashes. Well, from the ashes of disaster come the roses of success. Out of that will grow something beautiful if you allow it and you can help other people.

Right.

When you get to that point where you've been injured and then you've realized that you're mended, that you're able to turn around and help someone, that is a life-changing event. And I think we owe it to each other to be the ones walking around with the scars, helping the people with the wounds. And I think that is why we scar, so that people will say, how, how did you recover? And then we share that story.

That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you joining on the podcast today. And listeners will have all the information that Sylvia talked about on her website and all those links. I'll have them in the show notes. And thank you for joining.

Thank you for having me again. Enjoy your day. Bye now.

Bye bye.