When Others Don't Know What To Say

What do you say when someone you love is grieving? And just as importantly, what should you avoid saying?

In this heartfelt conversation, I sit down with grief educator, author, and speaker Heidi Dunstan, whose own experience of suddenly losing her husband inspired her mission to teach others how to support grieving people with compassion and confidence. Together, we explore why so many people disappear, say the wrong thing, or simply don't know how to show up—and how even small acts of kindness can make a profound difference.

Whether you are grieving yourself or want to better support someone you love, this episode offers practical wisdom, heartfelt stories, and gentle reminders that grief is ultimately a reflection of love.

Thank you for listening!   Visit www.sueandersenyoga.com for Yoga for Grief classes and additional resources.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hello. I'm Sue Andersen, grief guide and yoga teacher dedicated to helping individuals navigate the challenging journey of loss. Welcome to Growth From Grief, where I aim to offer strategies to transition from the depths of grief to the path of healing. Whatever loss you are grappling with, here you'll discover support to ease both the physical and emotional burdens of grief.  Together, let's embark on a journey towards strength, peace, and healing. I'm so glad you are here. 

Hi, and welcome to this episode of Growth From Grief. I'm your host, Sue Andersen. Welcome. If you are a returning [00:01:00] listener, thanks for returning. If you're new, welcome. I hope you will find this episode and other past episodes helpful to you as you move through your grief.  In this episode, I'm goining to be speaking with Heidi Dunstan.

Heidi is a certified grief educator, international bestselling author and speaker, and she educates people about grief and how to support others who are grieving. And she came to this mission, from her own experience after suddenly losing her husband and finding that a lot of people were saying the wrong thing or just disappearing from her life.

And she realized that she... a lot of people never learned how to grieve, [00:02:00] and so that leaves a lot of people that are grieving in isolation, and maybe you relate to this. You know, we... frequently the people around you stop talking about who you lost or what you lost. And so Heidi is helping people to feel equipped to support their loved ones so we can grieve with grace together.

I think that's a, a really lovely, a lovely thing. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Heidi. 

SUE: Hi, Heidi. Welcome, I'm so glad you're here, on our Growth from Grief podcast. One of the things that you and I talked about when we were first chatting is, [00:03:00], whether or not this topic was going to be appropriate for my listeners, who are generally people who have experienced loss and are grieving.

And, and I think it is because, you know, people that are grieving are still trying to figure out how to deal with the people who are trying to support them. So it's a little bit of a game, as you know, and, and the reason why you, are doing the work that you're doing. And so I think it's, it's great, for people who are grieving a loss to really have - also have those tools so they can maybe gently help the people that are trying to help them.

But also on the other side of the coin, sometimes even for myself, I'm at a loss for words. You know- Yeah ... having experienced a lot of loss [00:04:00] myself, you know, sometimes I think or other people might think, oh, she just knows what to do, but you know what? Sometimes I don't. And so I'm, I'm really looking forward to our conversation, this morning.

HEIDI: Thanks so much for having me, Susan. And, and, and you're exactly right. I can tell you that as I spent more and more time with grievers after my husband died.  I realized that a lot of us gets kind of stuck, not only in our grief, but in the fact that people say terrible things to us. Yes. And we don't always know that it's terrible.

It just doesn't feel right. Mm-hmm. And so it kind of leaves us in the muck, and we're already in the muck, right? And so on top of that, some of the tools actually help people to go, "Hey, that helped me make sense of what felt weird." And then on top of that, teaches them things to say because, again, we knew it didn't feel right.

We don't like saying it again to somebody else, [00:05:00], but we don't always have those words, and we know that words matter. Yes. Right? Yes. They, they truly do. And, and on top of that, when we don't have the right words, we tend to be silent, and that silence we also found is deafening as we navigated grief.

Those people that we thought would say the right thing that said nothing at all, that left us reeling just as much, if not more. Right. So. Right. Yeah. It helps grievers, I think dispel some of the crazy that they're going through 'cause there's lots of it, and then also gives them some of the tools and the confidence to lean into that grief.

SUE: Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk about how you came to this? I, I know, that your husband died, so can you talk a little bit about that and your experience as a griever? 

HEIDI: Yeah. So, it was two days after Christmas. It was the day before my 40th birthday. I'd found out that my husband, Mike, had planned me a [00:06:00] 40-person surprise birthday party, and love the man dearly, miss him dearly, but, he menu for this birthday party was chicken wings and cake.

And, I knew we didn't have any chicken wings in the freezer, so I said, "We need to go shopping." And I figured I could enhance the menu a little bit. And, on the way home, uh, he was... we were switching vehicles in the driveway, and he had a massive heart attack in the driveway. Wow. Um, and literally an hour later, uh, he was gone.

And it was very unexpected. We didn't... yeah, no, no clue that this was in, in the foreseeable future. And- He, we were both, we are both very well-loved people, and which is great, in everyday life. But when you're grieving, it means that grief collides a lot  and people want to be there for you, and they don't know how.

[00:07:00] And the people that are close to you, some of my closest people disappeared 'cause I was a reminder to them that Mike was gone. I activated their grief as well. And so, to dispel some of the crazy, I did what most normal 40-year-old women do, and I turned to Facebook groups. And then, to realize that there was other widows that were navigating the same kind of, I call it the crazy train of grief.

Mm-hmm. It's a 10 coupon ride, and you get a, don't get a choice of when to get off.  And- I really found that I, I had some really amazing people. I call them my angels, the friends that I didn't anticipate were gonna show up. I had some that showed up that just were spectacular. And then I had friends who I thought would show up that completely disappeared.

And then I just had those people that said the [00:08:00] weirdest things, like, "I understand grief. I went through divorce." "Uh, you're young. You can find love again," like three days after he died, 'cause, you know, love just turns off like a switch as fast as he died. It doesn't work like that. You know, I had friends that showed up with big bottles of alcohol, and they just thought I would drink my way through it, and just so inappropriate.

Yeah. And as I spent more and more time with grievers, I found out that my story wasn't that unusual. Yeah. And, um, as I kinda got my feet back under me, it was during COVID, my husband died in 2018, um, I, I went on an audio-only app called Clubhouse, and we would have these conversations about, like you'd go in different rooms and just talk to people, and there was always these rooms about grief and loss.

And a common theme [00:09:00] was the stupid things people said to you. And I was like, "We gotta change this." Like, this isn't because our people are mean and terrible. It's 'cause they've never been taught. Yeah. And so I just started making a mission to teach people how to lean into grief, which is those moments when you feel like you're supposed to, like, hide away and not say anything.

Those are the moments when you're meant to lean in. And it's been really powerful to be able to see how much change it can hap- that can happen because it doesn't just happen with one person when I teach them. They get to use it over and over again. Right. Great. And so it just builds their confidence, and it's beautiful to watch.

SUE: It's interesting. So my, my first husband died when I was 28, so this was,  just a few years ago ... almost, almost 40 years ago. But, and so this was [00:10:00] back in, you know, the late '80s. And- I mean, just incredible the crazy things that happened at that time because people really had no idea. I mean, three months later- Yeah, it wasn't an empathy kind of a- time, was it? And three months later people were like, you know, my husband's friends were like, "Oh, so and so wants to know if you want to date him." I'm like, "What?" You know, it was just kind of crazy. And yet, some of that thought, some of those thoughts and, you know, behaviors carry through because that's what people learned along the way, and, and they still don't know what to do.

HEIDI: Yeah. A- and, and it's because we don't talk about it. I mean, I actually was in a room once with a lady who her husband died by... at a workplace accident, young like you were when your first husband passed, like 29. [00:11:00] And nine months after her husband died, her doctor, her family physician said to her, "Out of all my patients, you take the prize in grieving the hardest."

Wow. Again, this is a man who's trained in death. Wow. Um, and so we just don't talk about it, and yet we know that we miss the mark, and so... But we don't know how to navigate it. And, and part of the reason is I th- I truly believe that grief is individual, our fingerprint. Mm-hmm. And I do believe that judgment is grief's kryptonite, and we tend to judge when grief doesn't look like we think our grief would look like.

If it looks different than somebody else's, we tend to lean into judgment and then that's where things go aw- awry. Yeah. "Oh, it's been five weeks. Y- you're not over that yet? Why do you still have your wedding band on? Why did you take it off? Why is the bedroom [00:12:00] still set up? Why..." Like, all those questions come with a line of grief or judgment to them.

Yeah. And as soon as somebody who is navigating hard emotions feels judged, they shut down. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. I felt like I had to put armor on every single day that I went outside the door, and it doesn't serve us. It doesn't make sense to me. I always kind of relate it to America's Got Talent. Have you ever watched that show?

Yes. Where they get the Golden Buzzer? When people get the Golden Buzzer, do they celebrate the same? No, they don't. No. And yet when the camera pans to the audience, are they judging how they celebrate or are they celebrating alongside them? charging No, they're not. Well, and when, when people are happy, they're celebrating alongside them.

Yeah. Okay. Yes. They're, they're, like, crying with them, they're laughing with them, they're [00:13:00] clapping, and yet we do judge how people move through pain. Yeah. And that's where the disconnect is. And what happens is, is when we do judge, we miss that magic. When you actually are able to lay down the judgment and just love somebody where they're at, hold space for exactly what they need you get to actually hear about their person, you get to hear memories, you get to carry on legacy, and you get, get to connect with the people.

I can tell you the people that showed up for me in that first 18 months after Mike died are memorable in my world. Mm. My neighbor who showed up with a Costco-sized case of Kleenex 'cause he knows I'm a sprinkler, that's memorable to me. Yeah. The friend who sat with me in a restaurant and just let me messy cry and not shove Kleenex in my face, not tell me, "Don't cry. You'll make me cry, too." He just let me cry 'cause he knew I needed it. Memorable. Yeah. 

[00:14:00] Um, the people, like the friend who showed up, like... I mean, my Christmas tree was up. I don't even know when my Christmas tree got taken down. But a friend came over. I don't, I don't recall it. I might have been sleeping. I might have been at the funeral home.

I don't know. But my Christmas tree was gone. Yeah. Didn't ask, just was like, "This needs to happen." It's those people that are memorable, and it's because they were willing to be uncomfortable in the muck with me. They didn't... They knew they didn't have the right words to fix anything, 'cause the only thing I wanted was Mike back.

Right. They were okay being like, "She's allowed to feel the way she feels." 

SUE: There's fear. There's fear in that, too, right? Of course. So with the judgment, th- there's fear. So, oh, if, you know, this happened to her, w- it could happen to me, so I, I, I don't know what to do. There's a lot of fear, and people are, uh, I think, afraid to [00:15:00] get close.

And I agree with you, with people that you didn't expect to be the support were the greater support. And, and I've been thinking about that in the sense that, the people with that... were my greatest support were people that I had just met, that didn't even know... Like my son, when my son died 12 years ago, they didn't even know him, and yet I was able to share with them, uh, because they were talking about their kids, and I was able to share, and, and laugh, and it was, like, fun.

Um, the people who knew me really well, it was s- very hard for them, very hard. And so I agree with you on that. And I, and I do think there's a fear in that. And I, I think it's the fact that we're not the same either. Yeah. When we lose somebody we cherish, we change, and people grieve the fact that we're not the same.

HEIDI: Yes. That's very true. That's very true. And [00:16:00] I, I know that there's some people that said to me, like, "I just want Heidi back." And I was like, "A piece of me died the day he died." Yeah. Yeah. That, that Heidi won't be back, you know? And I also felt different. Like, there was just relationships that people were like, "Well, you haven't called."

And I'm like, "I just don't wanna be that person." Like, I can't be that person anymore. Right. And it just, I didn't feel like it fit. And, and I think that's why, like, a year or two after a, a major loss in your life, a lot of people change jobs, because they n- they don't fit there anymore. Right. 'Cause the person that worked there before is not there anymore.

Right. Um, and so it, it gets messy and I always say it requires a lot of grace. [00:17:00] I, on both sides. Mm-hmm. You know, um, people say stupid things, and it's, it's hard 'cause we're, we're already raw, especially 'cause it's early. Usually they say them early, um- Right ... on. Um, but even post, like I mean, I- Mike's been gone almost eight years, and I would say the most common question that I still get, I mean, I was just, on Friday night, met somebody and the fact that I was a widow came up.

And a woman, her first question was, "H- what was the cause of death?" Yeah. Why does it matter? Right. I, I, I, I just shared with you that next week I'm speaking at Harvard, and I'm speaking on we need to stop asking how people died and start asking how they lived. Mm. 'Cause that's where the magic of grief comes in, because it allows for connection, and it allows for legacy to carry on.

'Cause we get to hold our, the memories and the stories of our people, and those are the f- how we pass the [00:18:00] torch on. Right. That's how we can actually connect in grief, is actually just talking about our people in the way that we love them, not in the day that they died, not in that moment. Right. And I think people that are trying to support the griefer are also afraid to talk about the person that died.

Yeah, they're afraid to- "Oh, I don't want to upset you." You're already upset. I'm already upset. Exactly. It's not a dimmer switch. It's an on and off switch. Like, and, and the griever has the ability to say, "I'm not up for talking about this today or this moment." Yeah. You know, I had a... You know, I remember I was probably about five months out after Mike passed, and a lady texted me, which it was beautiful, she reached out.

Um, but I was at work, and she wanted to see how I was doing and, and I was keeping it together, but probably by a shoestring. Yeah. And I [00:19:00] was like, "Look, I just can't." I said, "I really appreciate you reaching out right now. I'm just at work, and I really don't want to cry, so can we connect later?" And so sometimes it's just having the sensitivity because we live in this world where we... a person may not be right in front of you. Just ask, "Hey." Right. "What you doing right now? I want to check in, or would it be better to check in later?" 

Right? Right. Um, I mean, it's, it's those little things that matter, you know. My, my husband was a fireman, and when I had to go to the firehouse dinner where they do the farewells for all the firemen that had passed that year, I ended up sitting beside an old colleague and friend of his, and he saw Mike 10 days before he died, and Mike was alive and healthy and happy and excited.

And then he got an email to say that Mike was gone. Hmm. And instead of saying, "Heidi, can you tell me what happened?" He said, "May I ask what happened?" He's like, "I saw him, I... And then I got the [00:20:00] email." And he's like, "Was it an accident?" Like, and at that moment then I knew that he was asking permission. It wasn't an expectation.

It wasn't like a law and order crime scene show where the cause of death is the main storyline, right? It was like he just needed that piece to go, "Why did my friend go?" But I can tell you, like, when an Uber driver asks my relationship status, and I say, "Widowed," and they say, "How did he die?" Like, why does it matter?

Oh. Right. And why the hell can you ask this question? Right. You know, why does it matter? Yeah. You know, and it's just as a... You know, we... I just had a conversation with a lady who, um, a friend of her s- son died by suicide. Mm-hmm. And people want to know how he died. Yeah. Yes. Why? But why, why do you need that information?

Why can't we ask about what happened before that day? [00:21:00] Right. What was his life like before? Right. Right. It's... Yeah. It, it, it is, um, it is kind of crazy. It's... I don't know if it's morbid curiosity or n- not knowing what else to say, or I'm not sure why. I think it's a little bit of that. I also think that it's that it's so common language in tri- like crime TVs, like CSI, Law & Order- Oh, sure all those movies. And people are like, "Well, we talk about it all... Like, we see it all the time." Yeah. We even see it in the news, like so-and-so died b- by, uh, succumbed to cancer. It, it, how they died doesn't really matter. Right. It's how they lived. Yeah. Yeah. And it is such a small piece of the equation, and it doesn't serve the griever other than to have to relive probably one of the hardest days in their life.

Right.[00:22:00] 

HEIDI: But when we can look at the question and go, "Where do we both win?" It's not in the day they died. Right. It's in the, in the days that they lived Can you tell me how you, um, during this time of your grieving that you kind of came into this, I'll call it a mission, of, you know, wanting to educate people? And, and how did you get there?

SUE: What was your sort of steps you you took?

HEIDI: Like I said, kind of that whole Clubhouse thing, I just started having conversations. Everybody was talking. Like, there was lots of grief coaches and grief counselors, and there was even some, uneral directors. There's some twins in the US that four generations of funeral directing.

One of them had his PhD in grief. But not a lot of people talk about what to say and not say. And so for the last probably four or five years, I've really taught people more about what to say and not say, and I give [00:23:00] them really real decent tools. Like stop asking how are you today, 'cause good, fine, or okay is not an answer a griever's gonna give you.

Start asking how's today. Start asking, being present. Mm-hmm. And being willing to open, hear an answer that isn't fluffy and nice. It could be that I haven't slept or I haven't eaten, or I miss my person. And, and as I've, as I've done more and more of the work about teaching people what to say and I got my grief educator certification, I didn't want to help grievers.

HEIDI: There's lots of people out there helping grievers. There's not a lot of people out there educating people on how to support their people in their life with grief. And I love teaching people. I love watching people soar, and it is really quite amazing when somebody phones me and somebody close to them is grieving and they're like, "I don't know what to say."

And we have a half an hour conversation, [00:24:00] and then five or six weeks later I bump into them and they're like, "I've had, like, six or seven other times where I've needed to use that." And so it isn't... I'm able to help multitudes of people by one conversation or one talk or one podcast. And- Right ... um, and I truly believe people want to do grief differently.

They want to support their people, they've just never been taught. And it's such- Yeah ... a sticky conversation, that it gets messy and people get scared. And- Yes ... because it doesn't look like their grief, they don't know what to do, or they judge 'cause they're like, "Why do they cry so much? I wouldn't cry that much," or, "Why aren't they cryvi- crying?"

HEIDI: Or, you know, like, "Why did they  " I lost 30 pounds after Mike died, like, three months. People thought I looked fabulous. I had one friend who was like, "Did you lose all that weight 'cause you're not eating?" I'm like, "Yeah." I said, "I hate eating by myself. Um, I have [00:25:00] brain fog so bad that when I put stuff on the stove I can only cook one at a time and nothing tastes good." Right. And she was like, "Why don't you come over? Bring some to-go containers. I'll have you over for dinner. Have a sleepover. We'll eat junk food and watch movies too, and I'll send you home with leftovers." Right? That's how ... we get to show up in grief. It, we didn't need to have deep, dark conversations.

Right, right. She just was like, "I see a need, and I'd like to hang out with you." And I had coffee with her yesterday, and it's just like those are the people that stay in your life. Right. When, when you start to get your feet back under you after grief, and for me it was about 18 months, some people less, some people more.

Those are the people that stay in your life. There's lots of other people that just faded away because I'm not the same person. Right. Yeah, and they, and they don't know what to do now. [00:26:00] They don't. And so as I've done, had these conversations and teaching people, the piece the first few years that I felt like was missing, Susan, was that there was no why.

Why are we teaching people what to say? And the why is that we have a, a duty as those left behind to carry on the legacies of those we've lost. Yeah. And that's where the magic truly lies. Like, people think that grief is dark and ugly and sad, but there's some beautiful moments in grief. You know, some of the, the tools that I used in my grief to get through some of the hardest days was being grateful I had Mike.

HEIDI: Yeah. You know, when I knew I was going down that deep, dark, those yucky days, I was like, "Okay, now, now I'm gonna write out or I'm gonna think about, I'm gonna look at all the photos and go, 'I'm so grateful I had him.'" You know? And those are, that's where magic lies. And, and that's where the [00:27:00] beauty in grief is, because I truly believe grief is love.

It wouldn't hurt if we didn't love our people, so when you see deep grief, you're seeing deep love, and all grievers are trying to do is learn how to love their person in a new way. 

SUE: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's it. That's very true. That's very true. So, you mentioned that you, you're giving this talk, for example, at Harvard. So are- do you generally do a lot of these, talks at different places? And can you talk- ... introduce us a little bit to that kind of conversation that you have? 

HEIDI: Yeah, for sure. Or presentation. So, I mean, the nice part is, is what I do is really teaching. And so I could do it one-on-one, and sometimes when people phone me and they're like, "Heidi, I'm dealing with this right now," I'm like, "Yeah, let's have a conversation.

I'm not gonna wait for you to..." Right? And we just unpack some stuff. But the best way to do this [00:28:00] is it's teachable to anybody. Mm-hmm. And so to do it from stage with multiple people in the room means that the message gets out more. And I don't get to choose who holds onto the message, but I can tell you all of us will navigate grief.

We all have people in our lives, and they don't get to stay with us forever. Yeah. And so if it means that they circle back to it or they embrace it today and move forward with it, teaching from stage or teaching in a workshop or teaching at a lunch and learn, um, means that more people get it. And I can tell you, I have lots of people that phone me and say, "Hey, Heidi, my so-and-so neighbor, um, their person died, and I need you to fix them."

HEIDI: And I'm like, "Then let's have a conversation with you." And I'm like, 'cause I, I don't, I don't actually deal with grievers. Mm. Um, I, I think there's enough of those in the world, and I, I totally believe, like if you are grieving, go and see a grief coach. Go and see a grief therapist. [00:29:00] Go see somebody who specializes in grief, 'cause there are a lot of therapists who are not well-versed in grief.

Yes. Um, and so but I can tell you that I think we all deserve to have friends and family around us that can navigate those sticky conversations. And so I find it way... It, it just lights me up to be able to say, "Oh, let's help you to help them." Mm. Mm. Right? 'Cause they just want their person who's still alive back, and, and to know that they have shifted, that life has changed for them and life is gonna look different.

Right. And that they can have the right words. And sometimes that right words is, "I don't know what to say, but you're important to me and I'd like to be here with you." 'Cause you can't fix it. Unless you know how to bring somebody back from the [00:30:00] dead, you can't take it away. I agree. But you can be present.

SUE: And you just hit on something I was going to ask you about. So you don't know what to say whether it's,  you're at the funeral, you know, ... You picture yourself whenever you've had to go to a funeral, and this could be for somebody that you don't really know well. You know, it could be a neighbor.

It could be, I don't know, your friend's father that you didn't know, so but you're there for them. Yeah. And, and you're usually just saying, "I'm sorry for your loss." Which I don't love. 

HEIDI: No. I'm sorry for your loss. Yeah. There's no connection there, right? It... How many times have we heard, "I'm sorry for your loss," and you purse your lips and you say, "Thank you," and the conversation stops there.

Right. And so I say, "Losing a parent is a [00:31:00] significant loss and my heart goes out to you. I acknowledge the pain. I acknowledge the fact that this is big for you, and is there something I can do to support you today?" Not, "Call me if you need me." Right. Right, yeah. 'Cause, like, when you're early in loss, you don't know what you need.

Right. And, and I, I hold grievers accountable too, okay? So, like, as somebody who's supporting people, offering service, "Hey, I'm going to grab groceries. What do you need?" Not, "Do you need anything?" What do you need? Or, you know, if you already know that they drink 2% milk or that they always have this, "Hey, do you want me to pick some of that up for you?"

HEIDI: "Hey, I'm grabbing my kids from soccer. Can I grab yours too?" Where they could just take a breath and go, "Yeah, that'd be great." Mm-hmm. "I could use that extra little bit of time to myself." So offering and, and making sure you can fulfill that offer, [00:32:00] 'cause loss feels big when there's more loss. When people say they're gonna do stuff and then they don't fulfill it, it's like, ugh, life is even harder.

But I acknowledge the loss, I acknowledge the pain. I often, if I don't know the person, I'll ask that person's name. And that usually is enough to, for them to go, "This is somebody who wants to have a conversation with me." Mm. Um, I don't... If I, if I come upon somebody who's grieving and I don't know what they're grieving, and they tell me somebody's died, I may ask, "Was it an expected loss?"

Because I know that you've probably navigated this, grief doesn't just happen in a finite amount of time. It can happen, grief moments happen years after somebody's died. Sure, yeah. Yeah. Um, so I usually will say, "Was it an expected loss?" And that's enough for them to also [00:33:00] know I didn't ask the cause of death, but they'll be like, "No, they were sick for a while," or, "Yeah, it was completely unexpected."

HEIDI: And they might even tell me, "Oh, it was 12 years ago." You know, I, I met a woman, she's actually a certified grief educator, and we were on a conversation. We were on a Zoom like this, and she was having a hard day, and her husband had been gone 12 years. But it was that it was her birthday that day. And today was the day that she turned older than he was when he died. And she was like, "I was never supposed to be older than him." 

And so grief moments happen years and years after, you know? And they - they're, they're weird ones. Like, I only had Mike in my life for four years. I met him in 2014, he passed in 2018, and when his, I call it his wing anniversary, the anniversary of his death came, and it was five years that he was gone, I really, really struggled that he was gone longer than I had him.

HEIDI: [00:34:00] And we don't get to choose what moments impact us, which means we don't get to judge how somebody moves through a moment. Mm. Right? Like- Yeah ... that's where when we can actually say, "Hey, I see you, and you're important to me, and I see this is hard right now." Not, "Oh, you're so strong." 

SUE: Oh, that's the o- that's, that's the phrase I don't like. That is the phrase I don't... I never liked it. 

HEIDI: Because you never felt it, 'cause you felt completely broken. Right. Yes, yes. Absolutely. And strong meant that they thought that you got it under control, so it, it absolved them from any responsibility for showing up. Yeah. And so I don't say... I tell people, "I see how courageous you are.

It takes a lot of courage to show up every day." Yeah. And I acknowledge the fact that it's not [00:35:00] easy to navigate loss. I

SUE: l- I like that. I like that, courageous versus strong. 

HEIDI: Yeah. One is an action. It's courage is action. It's them- Mm ... doing something. And, and on the days when they hide under the covers, 'cause we've all had them in grief.  That you're just like- Right ... "I'm not getting out of bed," turn around and acknowledge it. Say, "Hey, I see today that you were taking care of yourself, and it was hard." Yeah. And you're allowed to. Give them permission to be okay with the fact that today was hard. Mm-hmm. You know? People say to me, "Oh," like, "So and so, they, they were supposed to come for dinner and they just called last minute and canceled."

You know? And I find it so disrespectful and I'm like, it's 'cause grief was driving the 18-wheeler that day. And the way you can show up is say, "Hey, you know, I hear, I get the sense that today's a hard day. [00:36:00] How about I show up tomorrow with leftovers?" And just save the meal for them and have the conversation when it's an easier day.

Yeah. You know, they're not personally going, "Oh, I don't want to come to your dinner." They're going, "I don't want to come... I can't come to your dinner." Right, right, right. Like, I feel like I got hit by a truck. Right. Right? Right. And, you know, one of the things that, um, for grievers, especially during the holidays because the holidays are really hard, um, not just for missing your person, but also because of all the expectations.

SUE: Expectations of joy and expectations of coming to the party or going out to the dinner or whatever it is. And, you know, something that people, who are working with grievers might say is, you know, well, just call the host ahe- if you think you want to go or even if you're not sure, [00:37:00] call the host ahead of time and just say, "Hey, I might come, but I'm gonna, I might leave early and I want you to know it has nothing to do with you."

Yeah. Yeah. It's- And, y- you know, that's another way to sort of deal with that situation es- like I said, especially during the holidays. 

HEIDI: Exactly. I, I mean, there's some accountability on the griever's side, right? I mean, I have grievers... I, I remember when I went through widows, it was group counseling. They showed us this video and it was a woman who throughout the video said, "My friends never call. The phone never rang. My friends never called." And at the end of the video, the counselor said, "You know, what stuck out for you?" And I said, "Her husband died, her fingers didn't break. Like, she could dial the number too." You know, you have to ask for what you want. And yes, sometimes you'll dial the number and your friends will say something dumb or they will, won't answer.

But guess what? Keep dialing [00:38:00] numbers until you've got somebody. Or go to a Facebook group and connect with people that are going through what you're going through. You know, it's easy to stay a victim, right? Yeah. Yeah. Life is already hard. You don't need to make it harder for yourself. Right. Right? Right, right.

HEIDI:  but on the same note, for the grievers or for the people that are, know somebody who's going through grief, we get to show up and when you do, it may not be instantaneous. This, it's not going to be like you ordered something from Amazon and it's going to show up on the door the next day. It's going to be a year or two later when they got their feet under them that they might go, "I really needed you.

Thank you. Like how you showed up was beautiful." Um- But yeah, we, we have to do grief better. We deserve to. Our, the legacies of the people that we've lost deserve it. Mm-hmm. The people that are navigating it, um, deserve it, [00:39:00] and us supporting it, we deserve it 'cause we get those legacies. That means we get that to pass that torch.

Yeah. Right? We get to- Yeah ... learn from the people that have already done it. Yeah. 

SUE: Yeah. No, very true. Very true. I, um, a friend of mine who also lost her husband, um, in the last three years, you know, she kind of talked about how, you know, one of the things that was kind of difficult for her was these, you know, the expectations.

Expectations of, of other people. And, you know, that's... I don't know how the person that's trying to support the griever can lessen the expectations or sort of that conversation about expectations, which might be, like, your boss expecting you to come to [00:40:00] work after a week, or people expecting you to come to the party.

What are your thoughts about that in terms of other people's expectations? 

HEIDI: So I, I've always lived with the rule that expectations are premeditated disappointments. So when somebody expects something from me, they're already setting themselves up for that disappointment. I might meet the expectation, so no big deal, but that's...

When there's an expectation there and that expectation hasn't been conveyed, um, or it isn't realistic, or it isn't fair, there's gonna be disappointment. Mm. And we do it to ourselves even. Sometimes where we have expectations on our own self and then we're like, "Didn't show up for myself that way." 

And that's where grace comes in, right? So, and work sucks 'cause, you know, work does expect you to come back to work. And we don't have grief-informed policies. You know, I'm glad I was an entrepreneur and I could dictate my schedule. Mm-hmm. But for those that work corporate, [00:41:00] um, and they've got three days of bereavement and, and then after that they've got to get a doctor's note because, you know, now they're broken and sick, um, that doesn't, it doesn't make sense to me.

HEIDI: And on top of that, you've, you're supposed to come back to work the way you were before. Right. Your grief is supposed to stay at your house, and it doesn't work like that. Right. Right. And so, um, those expectations don't serve us, and I... That's why I always say we, we, we get to love people exactly where they're at.

Mm-hmm. We don't get to tell them how they're supposed to feel. We don't get to tell them that it's been five weeks, they should be over it, or it's been five years. Yeah. We all go through it a- at our own pace and in our own way. Mm-hmm. And some people navigate it fast, and some people don't, and some people never get through their grief.

Yeah. I [00:42:00] will grieve Mike to the last breath I take, plain and simple. Yeah. Because I will love him to the last breath I take, right? Now, I have many days now that I don't cry, and I have moments where I do. Right. And it's because I miss him, and I now miss... I miss you and I love you are the same. When I miss you, it's because I'm loving you. Yeah. And when I choose to frame it that way, it comes with grace rather than expectation. 

SUE: Yeah. That's nice. I like that. That's nice. Right. Is there anything, Heidi, that we haven't covered that you'd like to share with our listeners?

HEIDI: Let's share a couple of the things that we shouldn't say.

Yes. How about, like, at least they're not suffering?

The person right in front of you is suffering. Yeah. So any kind of... [00:43:00] I always say any sentence that starts with "at least" minimizes the person right in front of you. At least you can, get another dog. Yeah. Which sounds somewhat okay, a little weird, but it sounds really inappropriate when you say, "At least you can have another child."

Yeah. Right? Time heals all wounds. Everything happens for a reason. Those are ones I never say. Time doesn't heal all wounds. Yeah. Grief... People always say, "Does grief get easier? Do you get through grief? Does it get easier?" And I say, "Grief gets different." Yeah. Right? It does. It, some days it's easier, yes. And other days it's as hard as the first day, and we don't get to choose.

And so that level of uncertainty can cause a little bit of anxiety and overwhelm when it hits, 'cause, you know, I always believe that we kind of do grief in our head and in our heart. Yes. And our head [00:44:00] kind of slows us down, 'cause we always say, "I thought I was through this. Why am I going through this again?"

HEIDI: Which keeps us here instead of, "Wow, this is hard today, and I really miss them," and, and, and whatever else is coming after that and. Um, and so- Letting people be where they need to be. Mm. And that's it. Like, 'cause they, they didn't choose to be there, right? Right. They didn't choose these emotions. They can make choices after, right?

You keep doing what you've always done and expecting a different result, you ... That's the definition of insanity. Right. So, right, when somebody's like, "Hey, why don't we, uh, instead of sitting on the couch crying for seven days straight, why don't we go for a walk?" That's just trying to break a pattern, right?

It's not trying to minimize or do anything. So, um, everything happens for ... And, and then everything happens for a reason. There is no reason big enough that I don't have my Mike- held in my hand [00:45:00] today. Right. Yeah. Other than I have to ... I mean, I am ... I have a, a level of faith in my life, so I have to trust that there's a bigger plan.

But when you're going through grief, it doesn't make sense. Right. Right. 'cause we just want our people back. Yeah. True. That's very true. Yeah. And, and I think that we get to, um-

We get to navigate it. We get to be at the helm even though it doesn't feel like we're in control 'cause our bodies are doing what our bodies are doing. But as for grievers, I say make sure you've got your, your close circle of people that you trust for when things are challenging. Mm-hmm. I don't wanna say hard, but they, they're challenging when it's like it's a lot.

Yeah. Um, make sure you've got... And, and digital [00:46:00] people are just as good as, as in real life people, right? I've made some really great connects with people, did online- Yeah ... through Facebook or through, grief groups, where it's like they can see me just as well.  ... and, and I can tell you, like, I've had many grief conversations where it ended on Zoom 'cause, you know, I don't cry gracefully.

It doesn't look good. So, there's lots of phone calls I find in grief rather than Zoom calls. Yeah. And, and I also, I encourage people to find the humor. I miss the laughter in my home. Mike and I had a lot of fun together and I actually think that one day I might actually design some sympathy cards that have some humor in them.

HEIDI: They're not for everybody, but you know, we get to be reminded that [00:47:00] we need to smile again. Yeah. Yeah. And we get to smile. It's not always gonna be appropriate. The tears are just as important. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I tend to, as you can see, I kind of could throw little, little jokes in there, and it's because humor's an important part to my world.

You know, when the neighbor shows up... And, and the neighbor held me while the firefighters worked on Mike. Um, so when he showed up with the Costco-sized case of Kleenex, we had a laugh. Yeah. Right? And, and I mean- Yeah ... it was, it was like I, I'm surprised he... It was my birthday the next day, right? So he could have wrapped it- Yes

like a birthday gift, like...

Yeah, we get to have, like, those moments, 'cause they're important, right? Yeah. They can help to take us out of that dark train that can go spiraling down very fast. We've all been there as grievers, where it doesn't feel like you're getting out of it. And so humor, I [00:48:00] find... Humor and gratitude were big tools that helped me, um, stay out of the dark.

HEIDI: Yeah. That's- It didn't mean that I wasn't all, I wasn't all rosy and like I, I say that first 18 months I was a zombie. But- I didn't curl up in bed for six months r- either, so. Yeah. 

SUE: So, if people are looking to connect with you, what's the best way to do that? 

HEIDI: (my website) www.heididunstan.ca. All my socials are there, my email's there. And then I also often teach a complimentary master class. I've gotta put one up, actually. I've got one coming up on grief in the classroom. So I do different topics, like half an hour, 45 minutes. Oh, nice. Okay. So for teachers and educators I do one usually November-ish for, how to invite grief to the holidays. How to invite somebody and [00:49:00] their grief to the holiday table. 

And then I just sometimes do the what to say and not say, or I might do a legacy, like let's share legacy stories. So it's, based on my travel schedule, there's not a pattern. I, I apologize. Most people are like, "Oh, the third Thursday of this is perfect."

My life doesn't unfortunately work like that. So, there is a tab, Events tab, and just see when the next one is. So I'll, I'll get that one posted today, 'cause it's fast approaching. But,  there's usually one there.

SUE:  Good. All right. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this conversation. And I wish you well. 

HEIDI: Thanks. Thank you. And thank you for having me, and thanks for having the conversation. A lot of people think that grievers just need grief, and, and, and I really hope this has resonated for you and your audience so that we can all grieve with grace together. 

SUE: Thank you. Thank [00:50:00] you.