Cape CopCast
Welcome to "The Cape CopCast," the official podcast of the Cape Coral Police Department.
Hosted by Officer Mercedes Simonds, and Lisa Greenberg from our Public Affairs team, this podcast dives into the heart of Cape Coral PD's public safety, community initiatives, and the inner workings of our police department. Each episode brings you insightful discussions, interviews with key community figures, and expert advice on safety.
Cape CopCast
Chief's Chat #9: Addressing Homelessness in Cape Coral
Join us as we explore a pivotal issue affecting many communities today—homelessness and public space management—alongside Chief Anthony Sizemore in this edition of the Cape CopCast "Chief's Chat."
Hosts Lisa Greenberg and Officer Mercedes Simonds talk about the intricacies of Cape Coral's new proposed ordinance that seeks to manage public spaces by prohibiting outdoor camping, a topic often linked to homelessness. We shed light on how this measure, born from House Bill 1365, is not an anti-homeless law but a means to ensure constitutionality in maintaining public order. As we draw insights from a recent US Supreme Court decision on a similar ordinance in Grants Pass, Oregon, we promise you'll leave with a clearer understanding of the balance between legal enforcement and compassionate outreach.
In this spirited conversation, we also uncover the critical role specialized officers play in supporting individuals without homes, focusing on connecting them to essential services through comprehensive training. We discuss the challenges of enforcing such ordinances while emphasizing that the primary aim is care and support, not just enforcement. By addressing the visible aspects of homelessness and recognizing its persistent nature due to global economic conditions and human psychology, we stress the need for both immediate action and long-term strategies. Tune in for a nuanced discussion that navigates the complexities of homelessness and the efforts made to tackle it for the benefit of the entire community.
Welcome back to another episode of the Cape Cop cast Chiefs chat edition. Happy Friday everyone.
Speaker 2:I'm Lisa Greenberg and I'm Officer Mercedes Simons. Together we make up the Public Affairs Office. We have the chief once again, and I think today we were going to try to talk about a new ordinance violation we're putting into play in the city of Cape Coral.
Speaker 3:Yes, that would be the prohibitionition on Outdoor Camping is what it's called.
Speaker 3:That's the official title is a Prohibition on Outdoor Camping, and where that comes from is a state house bill House Bill 1365, that came out of Tallahassee. The house bill itself is not a law or an enforceable. This is the statute that we're using to enforce or enact a prohibition on on municipal camping. What it is is a directive to to counties and cities that you have to create an ordinance that has enforceability penalties, otherwise you as the municipality or the county will be in trouble. So it's kind of conversationally or coffee shop talk, referred to as DeSantis' anti-homeless law.
Speaker 3:It's not what it is. It's actually a House bill that directs cities and counties to create legislation. That's twofold Number one, a prohibition on outdoor camping and ensuring that there is a health and wellness or welfare continuum of care component into it. And we can talk about what the continuum of care is. But that is what is the backstory on the ordinance that was introduced on Wednesday evening at the City of Cape Coral's council meeting that they do an introduction to an ordinance, that's a public notice, that in two weeks they're going to do a public hearing on it and either thumbs up or thumbs down on the ordinance, and that's what it's about.
Speaker 2:So how do they come up with? How exactly to word the ordinance? Who sits down to put everything into play and decide how things should be worded and written?
Speaker 3:The city attorney's office and within the city attorney's office we at the police department have a police legal advisor who is an attorney that works for the city attorney's office assigned to us. But let me back up where it comes from, where the language comes from. There's a US Supreme Court decision that is very new and it is from a city in Oregon called Grants Pass and the case was called the Grants Pass decision. So the city in Oregon created a law that prohibited outdoor camping, or you can't have homeless camps on the sidewalk or in public areas and everything that you see in some of these major cities that make you scratch your head Like how the heck can that happen? Well, there really wasn't a mechanism to prohibit that. So this city in Grants Pass, oregon, said we're going to do it. So they did it.
Speaker 3:It got challenged, it went to local court, it went to circuit court, it went all the way up to the United States Supreme Court and, without boring you with too many of the details, the argument against the law that says the law is unconst, constitutional says that a homeless person is a class of people and you can't discriminate against a class of people. The argument for the law was that being homeless is not a class, it is an action, and all different classes of people can choose that action or not. Choose that action not getting into anybody's economic circumstances or mental health conditions that would get you there. But being homeless is not a class, it is an action, and the US Supreme Court went with that, which means that enacting a prohibition on camping law is not discriminatory towards a class of people. It targets an action that's committed by people, which is a really rough way to say that the law stands. So you are allowed, as a county or municipality or government body, to enact laws and ordinances that prohibit large camps of homeless people on sidewalks and in public property.
Speaker 3:You always have had the ability as a private landowner, to permit or prohibit behavior on your property. And let's localize it to Cape Coral. So you look at the downtown Cape area, the CRA or the entertainment district. All of the private businesses in that urban area have the ability and they either have or they soon will, if they choose to sign a letter with us that gives the police department the authority, whether they're present or not, to enforce trespass on their private property.
Speaker 3:The gap in the circuit was the ability. That fine, I won't be on the back parking lot of business X with my tents and my bag chairs and drink during the day and lay around. That's prohibited, I know that. But I can go right on public property and you can't do a thing about it Sidewalks, right of ways, public parking lots, anything like that and up until grants pass, you couldn't do anything about that other than suggest you shouldn't be here. Can we help you, can we get you services, and we'll get into what that means.
Speaker 3:But there really wasn't any teeth in the law, and people who willfully choose to live a lifestyle of being homeless know that and they can exploit that. And it put us in a position to either ignore it, perceived to be ignoring it, allow it or you could violate somebody's constitutional protected freedoms to be able to exist right, and there never has been. Nor does Grants Pass or the prohibition on outdoor camping outlaw homelessness or criminalize homelessness. It does not do that. What it does is it prohibits you from setting up residency on public land. So it's a needle that needs to be threaded.
Speaker 3:So there's what we've done, how we got here. But then moving forward, I think is probably what people want to know, because there's passion on both sides of this issue where, if you're on one side, you're like what do you mean? There's another side of the issue. Yes, there is another side of the issue. So the two sides of the issue for homelessness are here in Cape Coral and also nationally are people that are advocates for human beings and for helping them and providing blankets and food and comfort items, socks, water, great humanitarian things. And then they can't imagine that there's somebody on the other side who says they shouldn't be here, they need to be removed immediately, no questions asked, get them out and they can't understand why everybody isn't on their side of the issue. And then in the middle, you have reality, doability if that's even a word and then legality, constitutionality. That's where we live. So what we have done, and what we will always do, is participate in a program called HOT Team H-O-T, housing, outreach and Treatment.
Speaker 3:They're all action words right, it's not homeless outreach team that some people think HOT Team is's. It's housing, outreach and treatment, and those are. That's what our officers uh, deputies from the lee county sheriff's office, officers from fmpd, members of lee health, the lee county human and veteran services, non-governmental organizations or ngos like st matthew's House, and all of these people come together instead of working in silos. It's called the continuum of care, and our role police, law enforcement's role in the continuum of care is to make contact with people that are experiencing homelessness people on the street and engage them. And we get trained on how to approach people homeless veterans, homeless families, homeless with mental health conditions, substance abuse issues. There's different ways to talk to people and engage them and let them know we're here for you, to provide you a direction. We're not going to show up and arrest you for being homeless Right, that is not.
Speaker 3:That's not a humane thing to do, it's not a legal thing to do and it's just not what we do. Our first engagement, then and now, is going to be how can we help you? I just need services. I need someplace where I can take a shower. I don't have my driver's license I lost it, but I have one or I can't find my social security card or my DD-214 if you're a veteran. There are things I need to get so I can get a job and kind of get on the path.
Speaker 3:Some people might need transitional housing, some people might need substance abuse treatment. Some people might need any number of different social services within the continuum of care, and our job is to serve as a conduit to get you there. We're not going to get you the new driver's license. We're not going to teach you new job skills. We're not going to provide you with a shower. We will provide you a place to get all of those things if you choose right, and that's the big thing. So therein lies the issue. If you want the help, the first and foremost plan of attack is for us to get you into the continuum of care, to break the cycle and get you where you need to be.
Speaker 2:And I think the important thing here is that that's not anything new. We're not just now offering continuum of care. We've had a team in place to go out, interact with people, to get to know whoever's homeless in our community and offer them these resources. That's not anything new that we're bringing to the table. That's where we've always stood.
Speaker 3:20 years we've been doing that.
Speaker 1:Right. I don't think people were aware, or a lot of them were aware, that we have officers who are dedicated to doing just that, and we're not just focused on enforcing this new ordinance when it comes to that point. We also have officers who are dedicated to helping people who are experiencing homelessness. That's right.
Speaker 3:And the training for the specialized officers is very niche, very involved. We know specifically probably who to contact at Human Veterans Services to get you where you need to be. Contact at the DMV. You know all the different things. Regular patrol officers know that we have these services and they can reach out for assistance to get you there. They can give you a ride there themselves, but they don't have the. They know about it enough to do it, but they're not experts in it. But we do have experts in it to help.
Speaker 3:We also do regional activities where Fort Myers, lee County, all of the NGOs will come and meet with our homeless people, take an inventory of who they are and what they need. How can we help you? So we have that part of it. Then you have the other part where people say I don't want help, I like what I'm doing, and there's many reasons for that. Some of it is mental health issues, some of it they really don't want to be part of the system, or the system and the continuum of care has a requirement that you are clean and sober and don't partake in violence. And some people don't want to give up what they're doing or they can't right. It's either a choice, or they're a prisoner to it. Either way, you have to abide by certain rules, to be in transitional housing or to be in a triage center. And if you're going to continue to abuse drugs or alcohol, you're going to be removed. To abuse drugs or alcohol, you're going to be removed. If you get into violent confrontations by just the confrontation itself, driven by mental health issues or driven by a combination of mental health and substance abuse. But you become a, you're a fighter, you're out and you're back on the street. So you have people who don't want to help, can't really get the help because of their lifestyle or have just willfully chosen to be that way. You have a constitutional right to live on the street.
Speaker 3:What this new ordinance will do, if it's voted in on the 22nd, is going to prohibit camping, sleeping, storing all of the camping gear, your bag, chairs, your cart, your stuff. So you can't be on private property collecting. And then, if you're moved from the private property by trespass or refuse to go and get arrested. But if you, I'll just go to the city property. This completes that circuit. You cannot do that on city property. You're allowed to be homeless. You're allowed to make that choice. We want to help you. We want to deliver you into the continuum of care, to get you services.
Speaker 3:But if you choose to be homeless, it's going to be very difficult to do that and navigate the law. And if you violate the law, the first thing will be can we get you help? No, I don't want help. I want to do this. Well, you can't do that. You could be homeless, but you can't accumulate all of your stuff. You can't lay out on the sidewalk. You have to move and then hopefully they will move.
Speaker 3:If they don't, they can be trespassed. If they refuse to leave after they're trespassed, it's just like any other thing trespassing situation. There's a criminal statute for trespass after warning and they can be subject to arrest. Arrest is not the first action that we take, but it is certainly on the table. And then if you have repeat violators where you know Mercedes, we've told you, we've been out here three times this week. We've even given you a written trespass warning and you're back, you're going to end up getting arrested. So you might be a as soon as we show up and see you arrest. That would be the situation. But if you're new to the area, you haven't encountered us before. We're not jumping out of the car, running up and arresting you because you look quote unquote homeless.
Speaker 3:Just the conversation that we're having, it's super nuanced, there's a lot of pitfalls, there's a lot of opportunity for people, for our officers, to be outside of the Constitution. So training is very important. So if this ordinance goes into effect, our legal team, our police legal advisor, will work with our training bureau to craft training that is easy to understand, easy to interpret, easy to enact, so our officers know what they're doing and go out there and address the issue multifaceted. Number one priority is the continuum of care. Number two is to ensure that all of our private business partners are on board with the mission of having trespass letters on file, making sure that all of our officers know the complexities of the grants, passed, decision and how it translates down to Cape Coral and then actually go out and do the work. There's a lot to it.
Speaker 3:Will that ordinance effectively solve the homeless issue? No, it will not. We are a large city We've talked about it before Eighth largest city, third biggest state in the country. If it's out there, it's in here. Homelessness is out there, homelessness is in here. It will continue. It's a global economic condition. It's a function of human psychology.
Speaker 3:So homelessness has been here for a long time. It will continue to be here, but what this will do is give us another tool to be able to help, because there's both sides of the issue. There's human beings that are in crisis, that need help, don't know they need help, need help, want help and we can get them help. And then others who want to live about their life without seeing blight or being afraid or being a victim of a crime because somebody was not all, but some homeless people will drink alcohol, get into fights, create an uncomfortable situation. So that's one of the difficulties that you have in a free society with density is that you run into these types of issues. But I believe that this legislation will absolutely help. It will help close a loophole that has been there. Will it solve the overarching macro issue of homelessness in the United States and specifically Cape Coral? 100% no. But will it give us the tools and the ability to make it better for everybody's homeless or not? Yes, I think it will.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know it's a touchy subject. So I appreciate you coming on and kind of clarifying and going a little deeper so that people who maybe have heard things about this but not the full picture or have questions can get those answers by listening to this podcast.
Speaker 3:Sure, and it really depends on your commute to work or to Publix or whatever you do in your life. There's people that are listening, that are like what are you talking about?
Speaker 1:What homeless Right.
Speaker 3:Because if you don't happen to go by certain areas, then you don't know. And then there's some that ride their bike in this particular area or walk in a particular area, that see it every day, or see a camp and go yeah, it's rampant, it's everywhere. It really depends on where you stand, depends on where you sit. We have a good collaborative relationship with our elected officials, with city management. We as the police department are in contact with our contemporaries, with our peers. Our legal team is up to speed, up to the minute on national and local and state legislation, to make sure that Kid Coral's on the forefront.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's great because it lets us do our job. It's not saying that everybody gets arrested. No constitutional rights are going to be violated with the ordinance. It just kind of lets us. It gives us options and different tools to be able to help them. It's not trying to make it as uncomfortable as possible without options, but there are options there for you to take and it almost gives more incentive to take those options and to take the help. And I think you could argue in a lot of cases that it is mental health and alcoholism and things like that and those are revolving issues. Those are not things that are just going to get better with them being out homeless in the community. Those are things that are going to get better in treatment, in facilities and with those resources that we have to offer Right.
Speaker 3:That's the number one goal.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Anything else you can think of, Chief.
Speaker 3:I think that's a pretty heavy topic for this week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. Thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate you listening or watching, and we will see you next time on the Chief's Chat. Take care.
