Cape CopCast
Welcome to "The Cape CopCast," the official podcast of the Cape Coral Police Department.
Hosted by Officer Mercedes Simonds, and Lisa Greenberg from our Public Affairs team, this podcast dives into the heart of Cape Coral PD's public safety, community initiatives, and the inner workings of our police department. Each episode brings you insightful discussions, interviews with key community figures, and expert advice on safety.
Cape CopCast
Chief's Chat #17: Tactical De-escalation to Detain a Man with a Knife
What does real police de-escalation look like? In this episode of the Cape CopCast 'Chief's Chat,' Chief Anthony Sizemore breaks down body camera footage of a potentially deadly encounter that ended peacefully thanks to crisis intervention training and compassionate policing.
When Cape Coral officers responded to a home in which parents had been assaulted by their adult son on the autism spectrum, they faced a complex challenge. The suspect was non-verbal, armed with a knife, and had already demonstrated violence. Without proper training, this situation could have ended tragically.
The Chief walks us through the footage moment by moment, highlighting how officers maintained lethal cover while deploying less-lethal options like tasers. The tactical communication between officers, their adaptability to the suspect's unique needs, and their immediate shift to compassion once the threat was contained demonstrate how training translates to street-level success.
This episode offers rare insights into the split-second decisions officers make when lives are at stake. It underscores the department's mission of "partnering together for a safer community for all" – showing how that partnership sometimes forms in unexpected ways during crisis situations. The incident ultimately provides avenues for the family to access court-mandated mental health services that might otherwise have been unavailable.
Watch the full video on YouTube to see this remarkable example of crisis intervention in action: https://www.youtube.com/@Capecops
Hello and welcome back to the Cape Cop cast chief chat edition. I'm one of your hosts, lisa Greenberg. I'm also a public affairs officer here with the Cape Coral Police Department and, as you can see, the chair next to me is empty. My partner in crime, mercedes, has officially gone on maternity leave. We are so happy. Congratulations to her and her husband. They have a beautiful baby boy, and so it's just me and the chief solo today. We're going to rock this thing out. How's it going? It's going good.
Speaker 2:How are you?
Speaker 1:Good, it's been a little busy, but I'm adjusting. I of course miss her, but we're getting it done.
Speaker 2:We're just cranking it out, and I like to be busy. Anyway, I'm used to that.
Speaker 1:So it's good when you work here, you better be. Yeah, right, I know today we want to dive into a topic that we've kind of discussed before in other scenarios, but we essentially had a situation in which there was a violent male, that our officers used their tactics, that they learned to make sure that the situation didn't end violently between the officers and this gentleman.
Speaker 2:Real de-escalation.
Speaker 1:Real de-escalation exactly, so we kind of wanted to dive into that, and so this is kind of where I would encourage anyone who's listening to this as a podcast to go to the YouTube, because we are going to put the whole video in showing this situation and kind of walking through it. If you have to listen to a podcast, though, chief, let's describe it for them a little bit. Just the people who are listening, what exactly happened.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. Our officers were summoned to a home in which there's parents who live there and their adult child lives there and something. When you talk about people who have autism or people on the spectrum, the first thing that comes to mind are children, and that's been in our society for a long time now, and the thing with children is they grow and we now have in throughout the country but we're no different here a lot of people on the autism spectrum that are adults and they're in a wide range of functionality, and some of your be it nonverbal or other challenges for those living on the autism spectrum disorder are now adults and a lot of them still live with their parents and their parents are older now and are they are adults. They're, they're full grown, uh, but still have some of the challenges, uh, that they had as children, and when you think of somebody, uh, in that situation. So we got sent to a, a home in which there was a violent encounter between an adult child and the parents, and upon arrival, the officers discovered that the parents had been the victims of a pretty significant assault and battery. They were injured and the adult child had left the home, but the victims or parents in this case, communicated to the officers that their son, an adult male, was on the autism spectrum and is nonverbal, and they believe he was armed with a knife. So now not only is it challenging for officers to go out and try and find this person that had committed this crime against family members, there's an additional challenge that normal communication that you would have verbal commands, getting a response, is going to be hindered because of the spectrum disorder.
Speaker 2:So this was in the northwest precinct of our city, so there was people who probably wondered why there was a helicopter up. We had canines out. We were doing it. Just because somebody's on the autism spectrum doesn't mean that we don't do what we normally would do, which is find a, a suspect who committed a crime. It just really in enhances our need for training or to rely on our training. So we fast forward and you can see one of our canine officers, uh, checks out with the mail. We have him in the street and you can clearly one of our canine officers checks out with the male. We have him in the street and you can clearly see that he is armed with a knife.
Speaker 1:Stop right there, put it down Kilo 101 on possibly 10-12. Embers in Northwest 17th Place. Hey, let me see your hands. Northwest 17th Place in Embers Parkway.
Speaker 2:He's holding a knife.
Speaker 1:Give me 33 traffic please.
Speaker 2:Put the knife down now. You're going to get bit by my dog.
Speaker 1:Do you understand me? Yes, sir, put the knife down right now.
Speaker 2:Put the knife down right now. Okay me, drop the knife. Drop the knife. Taser, taser, one taser. Drop the knife drop the knife get on the ground get on the ground, leave him right there, sarge, sarge, leave him right there, I got you, I got you. Hey, wait, wait, he's going again. Give me another taser, get on the ground. Get on the ground, do Get on the ground.
Speaker 1:Do not move. Do you understand me? You're going to get bit. Do not move. Put your hands behind your back.
Speaker 2:You're going to get bit Now. The fact that the parents and or victims communicated that this individual was nonverbal was critical. It was absolutely critical because if we didn't have that information that can present to officers as being resistant, or maybe some pre-flight or fight indicators, because they're formulating a plan to either fight or flee but having that information, which is the first step in activating training or crisis intervention training, is knowing that the individual that we have, albeit dangerous, albeit a full-grown man who committed a violent act and is actively armed right in front of you, he also has a nonverbal condition. So that's difficult enough to communicate with somebody in blue skies, we call it.
Speaker 2:But when you're faced with this in real time on the street, you don't rise to the occasion or come up with new techniques under high stress. Quite the opposite, you fall back to your level of training and fortunately we have been utilizing crisis intervention training for over a decade here. So immediately under high stress situations, the officers realize and you can hear them communicating to each other on the radio he's non-verbal. That way anybody coming up that maybe wasn't on the scene to hear it directly from the parents the officers are communicating to other responding officers be advised this individual is non-verbal. So if you become the one that take over commands or you see me giving commands to them and you observe that they are not responding, please know that they're nonverbal. It is not to be mistaken for pre-flight or fight indicators, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah. You want to make sure that they know, so that if they he's, you know they come on scene. He's not answering commands. It's not that he's being resistant.
Speaker 2:Correct. So again it. It doesn't mean that we, you know, wash our hands and go home or we feel sorry that that he's in the situation or the parents are in this situation. A crime was still committed. But it's very nuanced, you know.
Speaker 2:When we get here so you can see on the video the officer is giving commands. Non-verbal doesn't mean not able to hear, he is just not able to give vocal feedback or nonverbal. So they're giving commands to drop the knife and the officer has what we call lethal cover. He has his firearm out because, nonverbal or not, if this turns into an attack situation or he charges the officers either to cause harm and or try to facilitate a suicide by cop, if you will, you have to be prepared to protect yourself, right? So if it's just you and somebody has a deadly weapon, then you have a deadly weapon, right. But then fortunately, we have a backup show up and then we go into a tactical situation where we have lethal cover, which is the firearm, and then less lethal, which would be the taser or beanbag shotgun or any type of less lethal option. And then the coordination comes in. So you continue with verbal commands, consistent, not get down, stand up, right, you don't want to confuse people so they have to be consistent commands drop, drop the knife, get down on the ground, drop the knife, get down on the ground. Repetitive, repetitive and hopefully it will click. At the same time the officers communicate with each other.
Speaker 2:I'm going to deploy the taser and you say that to other officers, because when a taser is deployed it makes a pop, right, it makes a sound that what you don't want to do is initiate something called sympathetic fire. So if you hear a pop, sometimes it can be a psychological or physiological response of sympathetic fire. I heard a pop, I pop, I pop. We train for that, to combat that, so that doesn't happen. So you'll hear on the video tasers deployed. I'm going to use the taser they repeat the word taser for the officers to hear, so that we don't initiate a sympathetic fire situation. And as you can see on the video, we did not, because that's another element of the training. So the individual is hit with the taser and not everybody reacts the same way. There are very rare instances where it doesn't work at all. There are some where people fall immediately on the ground and flop around or their muscles tense.
Speaker 2:Some can take it and they're getting all the full effects, the full ride, if you will. But they don't necessarily fall and that's what you're seeing here. He is affected by it. But what that can do sometimes is if somebody is in a different state of I'm not hearing you, not because they're not communicative, but they're just like anyone. They're in a stressful situation themselves. They're realizing what they just did they ran. It's a very scary situation. So they're in a stressful situation themselves. They're realizing what they just did they ran. It's a very scary situation. So you don't always react the way you think somebody would react.
Speaker 2:But the taser will not only stop somebody from advancing or running or fighting. It can also reset you to go hey, pay attention to what's going on here and you can see that unfold on the video. He's hit with the taser, he has a reset and he that unfold on the video. He's hit with the taser, he has a reset and he gets down onto the ground. Our officers then come in. We still have lethal cover in case something goes wrong. We still have less lethal in case he decides nope, I'm not going, we're going to do this again. That doesn't happen. The officers come in and apply handcuffs and take him into custody.
Speaker 2:Now when you look at what de-escalation you hear de-escalation right and it's. We've talked about it for many, many years. It became in the national conversation or front of mind around 2020, you know when when police reform and the quote unquote national conversation about policing had been going on, about de-escalation Not a new concept, but it's a new concept to a lot of new people that have come in. De-escalation in the abstract is very calm and peaceful. In reality, de-escalation can look scary. It can still involve a use of force. Applying a taser or hitting somebody with a taser is a use of force. Applying a taser or hitting somebody with a taser is a use of force. Bringing somebody to the ground is a use of force. Handcuffing somebody anytime you put hands on somebody, that's a use of force. So de-escalation is not devoid of using force.
Speaker 2:De-escalation is the hopes to minimize the force needed and if we're presented with somebody that is already in the acute demonstrated violence and is armed with a deadly weapon, then you're already at a deadly force situation potentially and the hope is to deescalate that to a less lethal option. And that's exactly what happened here. But when you watch it without any context it can be scary. Yeah, it's loud, there's lights flashing, it's night, there's a guy with a maybe you see the knife, maybe you don't. You can clearly see it in real life. And then we hit somebody with a taser and if you know the end of the movie, you know it's easy to be able to judge oh, this individual is on the autism spectrum. I feel bad. I don't want that to happen to them. Nobody does. But if you ask somebody whose family member was killed in a situation like that by law enforcement if they would trade, I mean it's a silly thing to ask, but absolutely Right. Trade, I mean it's a silly thing to ask, but absolutely so.
Speaker 2:De-escalation sometimes is not the prettiest thing, but it is exactly what happened here, which was de-escalation from a deadly force encounter to a less lethal encounter, to safely taking someone into custody. That will A answer for the charges, but B will have an avenue for additional psychological help, because it wasn't just the autism spectrum that this person on there was another underlying psychological condition as well and we don't know at the time what their circumstances are as far as insurance or for therapy or for any other type of services, but sometimes when there's a violent encounter. But sometimes when there's a violent encounter, you unlock avenues for families through court-ordered or court-mandated help. So there's a lot of different ways for people to get help after a situation like this, but first and foremost, you tend to the victims ascertain as much information as you can, because you can see at the very beginning, when we encountered the, the victims, them communicating to us that he was non-verbal, was critical to this entire 100.
Speaker 2:So that's what? Um, when you look at our mission statement partnering together for a safer community for all you picture what that means in your head. It's not always what you think it is, but that is also what our mission statement is. You don't choose the partnership. Sometimes you know we didn't pick to go there. They certainly didn't wake up that day thinking that the police were going to come and have this. But, like it or not, we're partners right now and when you have that type of communication and that type of partnership, the second half of that mission, which is to ensure the safety for all, it's the safety for them and it's the safety for the offender as well and the officer.
Speaker 2:So that's what the mission statement looks like in practice. That's what de-escalation looks like in practice. It can be scary, it can be, you know. Quite frankly, it can look ugly, but it's a heck of a lot better than what the alternative would have been had you not had training, had you not had the ability to communicate, and not only with the initial information, but to put that out to all the other officers in real time in a rapidly dynamic and evolving situation. That video that you're looking at, or you just looked at, is exactly what de-escalation looks like, and it doesn't happen by accident.
Speaker 2:Right, we train for this Absolutely. It's intentional. Right, if you want to do something, you have to practice it, you have to be proficient at it, and we're committed to doing that. And I think this highlights exactly that. I mean, if we didn't do that, if we didn't train, we weren't committed to it, and this outcome was different, you certainly would be seeing it a lot on a much different medium than our YouTube channel and talking about it on the Cape Copcast. It would be on the news, certainly locally, maybe even nationally. But those days of not training and not being ready for this, they're over. They're over nationally, but they're certainly over here. I'll repeat it again Seventh largest city and the third biggest state in the country. You're not prepared for big time stuff? Then you're just not doing it right and rest assured, we are.
Speaker 1:The first officer on scene also was a canine officer, correct, and at one point, once the gentleman was tased, he got his canine out ready to go as well, because the gentleman was not responding to the taser as they thought he would. So just in case, and saying you know, I'm, my dog's going to bite you, my dog's going to bite you. And the guy ended up complying. So it's just another tool that we have to be able to the canine is actually a less lethal use of option.
Speaker 2:Right, we track suspects and and and missing people with the canine. That's an application. They do open-air sniffs for narcotics, but they also do apprehension. And apprehension that leg of the three-legged stool of canine is a use of force. So if he were to be armed, not responding to one less lethal option, you go to another less lethal option. You use every tool in the toolbox. You don't just well, one less lethal option didn't work, we go back to lethal. No, that's not how that works. So we apply in real time many different options to be able to get the outcome that we got.
Speaker 2:So I just think, if you know the context that we're talking about and look at all of the different layers in this onion, if you will, there's a lot going on, and a lot going on fast and not a lot of room for error, because lives are literally at stake, and we talked about this on a previous podcast that it's stressful enough for the family that they live with this every day and then for the worst nightmare to happen, where they're attacked, and then they call for help.
Speaker 2:The last thing they want is the person that they call for help to be not help. So it's very vital that we have the training, the ability, and you also have to have compassion and a care for human life. Right, right, that's the other part that completes that circuit. We provide our officers with the training, we drill it until it's an auto response and you can see that there. But you also have real human beings that really care about other human beings in the video, and I think we talked longer than the actual incident was, but that's everything that goes in, and sometimes in a millisecond, to the responding officers.
Speaker 1:And one thing I did want to point out is you know, once they had the gentleman under control and once you know they got the cuffs on him, you can see a difference and you can see that compassion come through the way they're handling him, the way they're conversing with him, asking can see a difference and you can see that compassion come through the way they're handling him, the way they're conversing with him, asking him if he's okay. You know being much more gentle but of course, when you're in the situation where the stakes are up here, you know the response is going to be up here. Once that danger is under control, you can see that compassion come through.
Speaker 2:Right, and we don't have the luxury, if you will, to picture a pot of boiling water. It takes a while to get hot and that's the emotion and we don't have the luxury to be able to cool and calm down. Slow meaning you can't be mad, and you put me in this situation. You did this to your loved ones. No, it's immediate. The threat is over. You go right back down to this is a person that thank God we were able to have the resolution that we had, so now it's into helping them and helping the entire family situation.
Speaker 2:So I couldn't be more proud of our officers for what we train on, that they applied, but beyond that, what they brought to the police department. Right, we want to hire good people and have that as a base to train and prepare. But if you don't have that good base, it doesn't really hit it on all cylinders like you want. So just the wonderful human beings that they are, the compassionate people that they are, that value human life and then are also smart enough and talented enough to receive the training, accept the training and then apply it in real life. It's just a tremendous job by them and by their frontline leadership to trust in them to do that and it's saving lives and you saw it unfold right in front of us.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Great job to all those involved. Incredible work Definitely makes us proud, for sure. Anything else you want to talk about today, Chief?
Speaker 2:Again. It's been a long week. Got a great weekend here. It's still beautiful weather. I know there's a lot of community events, so be safe when you're out in the community enjoying what may be one of the last remaining weekends before humid time.
Speaker 1:Humid hot. Yeah, All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us and we will see you next time. Have a good one.
