Music, Activism, and Rising Above with Gwen Levey

Award-winning musician, activist, and Rise Above Justice Movement co-founder Gwen Levey joins Working Girl for a deeply honest conversation about survivorship, activism, reproductive justice, LGBTQ+ rights, and the emotional reality of doing this work in today’s political climate.

Gwen shares how the overturning of Roe v. Wade changed the trajectory of her life and music career, what it means to build community online while facing constant backlash, and why rest, self-care, and connection are essential for anyone fighting for change.

We also talk about surviving sexual violence, intersectional feminism, social media censorship, country music, political awakening, and how ordinary people can start getting involved in their communities.

This conversation is raw, thoughtful, empowering, and one I think so many people need right now.

Listen now and subscribe.

Check out the show notes for ways to get involved, learn more, and support the work.

Transcript

Content Note And Welcome

SPEAKER_00 0:00

A quick note before we start. This episode includes mention of sexual assault. We don't discuss any specific experiences in detail, but please take care of yourself as you listen. Welcome to Working Girl, the podcast where we pull back the curtain on the real work of building a more just world. I'm your host, Rachel Ampala. Each episode, I sit down with women who are on the front lines of change, organizing, advocating, healing, and challenging the systems that shape our lives. Together we talk honestly about the victories, the setbacks, and the deeply human stories behind the fight for justice. Because in a world where change can feel painfully slow, these are the women who refuse to give up. Welcome to Working Girl. Today

Meet Gwyn Levy And Rise Above

SPEAKER_00 0:51

we have a very fun guest. Not our standard type of guest. We don't have a lawyer today, we don't have someone who's running a nonprofit. Something very interesting, actually. We have Gwyn Levy, who is the award-winning musician, songwriter, activist, and co-founder of the Survivor Coalition Rise Above Justice Movement. If you are involved in social justice or you care about it and you are on Instagram, there's a very good chance you've seen their Instagram community or you are already following it. I love the work and content they're putting out there and raising awareness for people to better understand what's going on. So I'm very excited to have Gwyn today. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me, Rachel. Happy to be on. Yeah, I'm so excited to have you. And you have your own podcast, so you're a pro at this.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yes, yes, we do. Yeah, and we have, like you, lots and lots of episodes. Lots and lots of guests. Yes, which is good.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

I think it shows how much people actually are wanting to talk about social justice and issues that I know are important to both of us. I'd really love to just start simple for people who don't already follow you or know you. When you tell people what you do, how do you describe it in your own words?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

So, I mean, I would definitely say I'm a musician first and songwriter, and my activism and what I do with Rise Above Justice movement, it all ties into my music. So it's kind of everything going hand in hand. Everything I write is from my perspective, and one of my lyrics, and I know this is something that's been said before, my existence is resistance, just like who I am as a person, my identity, and plays all into my music and the activism I'm doing, and really using my platform to give, I don't want to say a voice, but a stage for people that wouldn't normally have one, especially when it comes to human rights.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, I love that. And the name itself, Rise Above Justice Movement, is very powerful. What does

Rising Above Without Engaging Trolls

SPEAKER_00 2:56

rise above mean to you in practice?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

I would say, and this is not always easy, literally rising above the negative energy that we're seeing, uh especially when it comes to all the hateful rhetoric and just the movements that have been happening and the power, you know, the people in power that we're seeing. Rising above that is, you know, it takes strength, it takes courage, it takes awareness and education. So I would say that that really describes what we do on a day-to-day basis. And again, it's not easy. Like, you know, there's times where you know, it's like when Michelle Obama's like, we go high when they go low. Yeah. That famous quote. But you know, that's not always easy. And there's some people who are like, I'm gonna go lower than low, and it's like, and meet them there. And you know, sometimes that does happen, but you know, you do your best to rise above and not and set a good example and again use your platform to showcase positivity as much as possible, and especially in these really hard times, and when we're talking about these really hard issues that need to be addressed.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Yeah. And it is really hard to stay positive, especially when you have the opposing rhetoric, and people are so vocal and feel very forthcoming in sharing their opinions online. Yes. It will it'll take a lot for me to ever engage with someone like that who's being like overly negative or intensely critical, because I just I have found it's not worth my time. Sometimes rising above is just not engaging with the rhetoric because, for example, I once heard this great quote, it feels like something that would come from real housewives, but it was like, I'm not going out of my way to be petty. It's on my route. And I feel like, yeah, for me, that's so true. I can be so petty and so like sometimes rising above is just literally not engaging.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah, and I mean, first of all, good for you for not engaging with the hate comments. And I know we'll dive more into this, but when I first released my Pro Choice Country Anthem, Barefooted Pregnant, which is what led me to Rise Above Justice Movement, and I've always been active, but then it really made me an activist, like within the work I'm doing. Just all the negativity that came my way, all the hate comments, and they've told us to, you know, I've gone viral several times and engage with everything because then it'll help push the algorithm. And so I was engaging all the time, and it really, really affected my mental health. And, you know, especially someone who has been going through recovery in terms of like from an eating disorder and also just a lot of the trauma that happened to me, especially being a survivor, and people kind of just started tearing me apart because they didn't agree with me, right? And it was a very long journey for me to just realize like it has nothing to do with me as a person, it has to do with them. And again, like you said, Rachel, like disengaging, not engaging at all is really the way to rise above everything. And Zachary is our founder and someone you know I'm very close to for Rise Above Justice Movement. And there are times when he's you know, I'll ask him for advice and he'll be like, Don't engage. You know, that's what we learned when we did a little bit of work with the Kamala Harris campaign. They're always like, Don't engage, don't engage. But again, we both like will fall into that trap sometimes where we're just like, oh, it's so hard not to. And again, it's a hard lesson to learn.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Yeah, I think especially, you know, I think a lot of conversation has happened since the presidential election and even before leading up to it, about how those tough conversations are what help moves the needle and get people to open their eyes. And I think it takes a lot of discernment and probably just experience to be able to gauge like when the conversation is worth engaging in and when it's not gonna go anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, and I mean now, you know, I uh there's so many comments, and I'm I'm happy now because like Instagram or Facebook, like they'll hide a lot of the comments that are negative typically, so I don't always have to see them. But when I do, it is like kind of like is this someone genuinely asking a question because they are like, is this you know, like an opposing viewpoint and wanting to have a conversation, or is it someone who wants to be on there and like be like, you're fat, you're ugly, you have no talent, and just shut up, you know, kind of thing. Those are all the comments that I'm just like, nah, I don't care, literally not worth my time. But before that was very hard for me, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, I mean, who wouldn't have a hard time with it? Yeah. I think there's a big difference between being hateful and being combative versus just genuinely having an opposing viewpoint and trying to have a debate or conversation. I think America's kind of lost the plot on the difference between the two, but I digress.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Definitely.

How The Movement Works Daily

SPEAKER_00 8:00

So you've touched on it a little bit, but what does the rise above justice movement actually look like on the ground today? Like what is the work you guys are doing day to day to connect with people?

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah, I mean, we are a coalition of survivors and our allies, and we're trying to bring attention to the news and the stories that the mainstream media won't cover. And day to day, we have this community, this platform where people collaborate with us, and it really helps get their stories out, like these amazing collaborators. And also, I learn something new every day. So I would say, besides posting on social media, the news and things we've seen, and you know, it's like one of those kind of like it's like a forum kind of, you know, you can post the news, people can comment, start a conversation, and people can collaborate with us. Zachary is doing a lot of the direct messaging. So there's like hundreds of people messaging every day. Like, where do we get started? You know, people want to know how can I join in this fight? What can I do to help my community? What can I do to be part of your community? So it's a lot of engagement and communication every day. And for me, I'm more on the social media side. So I'm editing a lot of our content. I'm helping with the podcast when I can, on top of the music I'm doing. And then yeah, I would say also we're we started this candidate series for the podcast, and it's called the Rise Above Justice Movement Podcast. And we're interviewing like hundreds of candidates that we feel are meeting the criteria that we want to see, you know, for candidates. A lot of them have grassroots campaigns. So I would say, yeah, again, a lot of communication every day and just staying on top of like monitoring our community. And when I say monitoring, I just mean like who's collaborating and things like that, and just having conversations literally every day. And I think that that's so important for what we do, especially as survivors, because our voices have been silenced. A lot of us have been silenced, and we're continuing to be silenced. So it's like a way to empower us and take back that power that was stolen from us. And I think hopefully, like as we're seeing, because it's grown so fast in such a short amount of time. I mean, we've only been around like we haven't even been around two years. And I think people coming to see the content and just having a place where people can discuss and have conversations helps people feel seen. So that's really what we're doing on a day-to-day basis.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah. You mentioned survivors a lot. I'm curious what other communities you feel most connected to or responsible for in the work you guys are doing.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

So we had a historic Zoom call back in October 2024, right before the election, with survivors like Anita Hill, who was someone who came out against Clarence Thomas, and we had Harvey Weinstein survivors and Donald Trump survivors, and also we're talking Epstein survivors. And I feel like survivors have again been silenced for so long. So Toronto Burke is the founder of the Me Too movement, and she was part of our Zoom call. So I would say Me Too. We wouldn't be who we are without the Me Too movement, and some of the other organizations that we love to collaborate with and do work with, I'd say, as feminists. Like that's a huge part of, you know, again, our platform. And gosh, there's there's a lot that we collaborate with all the time. We do a lot of work with politicians like Rokana and the House Oversight Dems, and people who are uplifting survivor voices and making it possible for survivors to be seen and heard, which is so important. But I I would say the biggest one is Me Too, for sure, because again, wouldn't be where we are without them.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah, I really respect that, especially because for me personally, when the Me Too movement was really rising up, I felt it very strongly as like a woman working in the corporate workplace. I was experiencing sexual harassment and gender issues all the time in the workplace. So when I would see these women kind of standing up to their bosses or whatnot, I found it really empowering. And then it took a whole different turn for me only a couple of years ago when I discovered I had been sexually assaulted as a child. And suddenly me too felt very real and very different. And I only publicly acknowledged that I was a survivor last year. And I have found it to be so encouraging to see the community of survivors online in any capacity, because it can feel really isolating and scary, and especially when you're seeing all of these very powerful people get away with what they've done to victims. I do just on a side note want to really commend you and the work you guys are doing for survivors because it is really important. And even if someone doesn't have the courage to send in the message to you guys, they're seeing it. You know, they're seeing the content, and I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Thank you. And you know, I relate to that as well, Rachel, just in my own personal journey. And I know when we talked previously, I kind of mentioned being, you know, sexual assault survivor starting when I was six years old and not talking about it. I didn't even tell my parents till I was in my 20s and going to therapy and realizing just how much it really affected me, and then having it continue like that pattern as I was older. Yeah, it's it's very difficult. And I I'm really, really glad to hear that you see it and other people are seeing just the space, the safe space for survivors and community. And we do our best to make it as safe as possible. And yeah, I'm really glad it's it's being noticed. A part of being a survivor can be feeling silenced, and now it's like I hope just people feel empowered by the work we're doing and also like all our collaborators, you know, who just really again want to give a stage to those who may not have it.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yeah.

Survivor Community And Intersectional Feminism

SPEAKER_00 14:25

And I think being an activist as well, I think what's something that's interesting is realizing once you're a survivor, you realize you're a survivor, realizing how interconnected so many issues are that maybe you didn't think had any connection, right? Or for example, I upon discovering what had happened to me in once I got through that initial hue turtle of the personal part of it, and I started to really look more into how it was affecting other people, you know, then diving into the statistics around sexual assault when it comes to women of color or people in the LGBTQIA community, it becomes such a more robust conversation, which is why I think taking it back to your mention of feminism, the importance of intersectional feminism, because you can't talk about SA without talking about racism or other types of discrimination. And I think as activists, it's really important that we help connect those dots for people because some people might really mean well and just not understand those connections. Some people may not mean well and have bias and need to be educated on those connections. And I think we have really important platforms, not only as survivors, but as people with microphones and large followings to help educate people on that.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Yeah, and I've learned so much myself. And I always say, you know, you don't come into the world knowing everything and having all this information, but I think it shows your morality, your morality when you actually learn the information. And it's like, what do you do with that? When you're aware, are you creating change? Are you being the example? And I think that's so important for all of us because I think a lot of people get very defensive because they have been taught a certain way. They have been brainwashed, there's propaganda everywhere. And I do understand that I have an example of that myself, and you know, we can go into it, but you know, and a few different avenues, you know, where it's everything is intersectional without realizing it. And I did grow up right outside of Washington, DC, which is one of the most diverse areas in the whole country. I think I went to the high school, like Michelle Obama came to speak at our high school because it is considered the most diverse high school in the country. So I grew up around, you know, I didn't think of racism, but also at the same time, I'm aware that racism exists. And I've seen it, but now it's like talking about it and how all these issues, like you said, are interconnected, whether it's SA, reproductive rights, LGBTQ plus all of these things are so connected. And it's the way people in power keep us marginalized and keep us down because they don't want us to have these conversations. They don't want people to be educated about our history, about our past, and the way our country was founded, right? On colonization and genocide. That's just not something that our government clearly has wanted us to really know and sit with. And reparations in any way have not been given rightfully so to the people who deserve it. And again, I think that's why we're here, right? Just like even thinking back to the New Deal, you learn in school how amazing that was, but it was amazing for a certain group of people, not for everybody. And I think that our society would probably be in a different place if we had included minority groups more in the New Deal and didn't have segregation, all these things, right? And while people think we've come a long way, well, oh, we don't need the Voting Rights Act, we don't need the Civil Rights Act anymore. That's from the 60s. Our country's moved on. We've not moved on at all. And depending on who you talk to, some people may say it's worse now, even though it's not legal to have slavery and things, but we still see that in our systems. And yeah, I just think that it's so important again that once you become aware and educated about the truth, what are you doing to like lead your own life as an example? And it's not that you have to like, I have to be an activist, all these things, but you should be aware and have your morals based around that. It's kind of how I feel. Yeah. You know, I know things aren't black and white, but again, once you have the information, what do you do with it?

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Well, I'm curious. I mean, it sounds like you really had the privilege of growing up around a lot of diversity. I mean, I personally grew up in the Ozarks in Arkansas, but there was not a lot of diversity. So the TV show.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Oh no, sorry, different. Is that the same Ozarks? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's that's it's technically in Missouri, but they filmed it. They filmed it like a couple of hours from my hometown, I think. So it's like very accurate. Yeah, I gotcha. I'm curious. You talked a lot about when you've kind of have that moment of epiphany or awareness. What pushed you from the state of awareness to action and eventually building something of your own in this world?

Roe’s Fall And A Viral Song

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah. So going back as an artist, I moved to Nashville in 2017, and it was a culture shock. I'm not gonna lie, when I moved here, because you know, where I came from was so diverse. And coming down to Nashville is just, you know, not that there isn't diversity here, but it's really not as diverse as you would expect. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I started writing music, just wanting to be a songwriter. And so I was writing with all these people, and I ended up just kind of like, and I I did love country music, but I always say I kind of fell into country music. I had a really great appreciation for it because of the chicks, and we all know what happened to them when they spoke out, got canceled for talking about President Bush back in the day and the war. And so I was always influenced by their music and then some other country artists that I really love. So when I started writing country music, I feel like there was people who were like, I'm conservative, and then also people are like, I'm liberal, and no one really talked about it. Like it was like you don't talk about politics, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

It was like the two things you don't talk about, religion and politics.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

I was like, all of our parents taught us that. It's true. And you know, in country music, like of course, religion's talked about a lot, drinking's talked about a lot and all these things. And I would say that my most controversial song before Barefoot Impregnum was called All the Weed I Need. And it's about not going for the drinking route, but for going towards you know, being more 420 positive. So, like again, you know, and also just like I had a lot of like feminist songs about being your own woman, blah, blah, blah, like that kind of thing. But what really changed me, uh, you know, I guess is radicalized the right word, like Roe v. Wade being overturned in 2022 and being a survivor, and then in Tennessee, knowing that once it was overturned six weeks later, these trigger bands that these really out-of-touch politicians had in place said that if you're raped, if you're a victim of incest, if you know, for whatever reason, you will not be able to choose like what happens to your body. And as a survivor, we know what it's like to have something happen to our body that's out of our control, that it's a violation. And so I I was just like, it changed me. It really did. And I I couldn't not write about it. And I told my co writers that, and then Barefooted Pregnant came about, and it just changed my trajectory because at the time I feel like I was on that typical country. Americana route where you know I was getting success. I had some songs on these major playlists on like Spotify and Apple Music, and I was independent. So like it was like, wow, okay, so like I'm having success with this. And barefoot impregnant, we put it out and it went viral pretty much right away. And then, you know, it's over 25 million views later. But what happened in my career is like I would say a lot of doors opened for me with Rise Above and talking to you, a lot of amazing opportunities. But when it came to some opportunities in the country music world, yeah, doors were closed and people stopped calling me and I stopped getting booked places and all these things. I could probably go on and on. But again, it's sad that it feels, you know, people are like, oh, what a sacrifice. But you know, I'm doing the right thing, I'm doing what's right, like the moral thing, you know, and again, using my platform, my voice to give a stage to people that don't have it. And I became really good friends with Allie Phillips, who is someone here in Tennessee, and she is running for office again. She ran for office this past election as well. And she had to have an emergency abortion and had to flee the state because Tennessee wouldn't allow her. She was probably going to lose her life if she didn't have it. So she had to go to New York with no family around her. She was alone and had to have this abortion and deal with that just because, again, our government here in Tennessee, our politicians just are so anti-abortion, so anti-woman's right to choose for herself. And one last thing I'll say about that is I find that very insulting because women are so smart. We know what's right for us. We know what's right for our bodies and our lives. And why would you want like more unwanted children in this world when we can't even take care of the life that's here, you know, and DHS here in Tennessee is like kids are sleeping on the floor, and some of them are being transported to like juvenile detention centers because there's no space for them. Like this is our reality, and they want that to continue here and make it worse, really. So, yeah, again, Ruby Wade being overturned, and then all these issues, right? That again you are intersect, as we say. Like, I've learned so much, and it affects everybody. And yeah, just almost like blew my world. You know, I knew things were happening in the world, but like I was always cared about the world, and my family were very involved and politically involved, but man, I don't know, something happened with Roe v. Wade, and I'm not the only one I know who's said that same thing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Yeah, I've heard that a lot. And I think it's interesting for I think like millennials and Gen Z, probably mostly millennials, who I think we kind of grew up in this era of feeling like all those big equality measures had happened already, right? It was like a new world. There it wasn't that it was perfect, but I feel like we all kind of felt like we were in a good place. And then these things all start getting overturned. And I think much like the pandemic, I think everything just felt so unprecedented. You know, everything was so new, and it was kind of just rocking the world of so many people who had been born into a society that felt, you know, even if the day-to-day interactions were not indicative of the laws in place, that the laws did protect people or were supposed to. Right. That illusion. Right. Yeah. Right. And of course, it 100% can be argued that is also probably very much through a white lens, right? I think. Of course. Obviously, people of color can argue like we may have had the right to vote and whatever, but we're still getting arrested at disproportionate rates and all that. But I think for most people who didn't have the awareness, who did not grow up in a lived experience that would teach them differently, I think it was very much like rose-colored glasses. And then you have like Gen Z, who's just kind of always known things being uprooted and have never really known a world in which there were legal protections. And it's just so bizarre. I think you've got now this like mixture of generations that all have a very different lived experience with equality and what that looks like in the legal system, what it looks like on the streets. And not to mention, I just think we also have to acknowledge the way that to the point I was making, so many people think that the legal protections are like a blanket and they just like take care of everything and they don't. And I think for the privileged when those uh protections went away, it sort of just unearthed what uh most people were already experiencing and the privileged were then suddenly you know made aware. And I worked really hard personally to re-educate myself on what I thought I understood about the world and about America, what was really going on, even if those legal protections were in place. But then also even when they have now not been in place, how much worse things have gotten. Yeah, me too. Yeah. And you have to. I think sometimes I hear people, again, mostly millennials, complain like life is already hard enough. Now I gotta go figure out racism and now I gotta go understand my privilege and like Yeah. It's like, well, yeah, you do, because you're not the center of the universe. Other people's experiences matter, and that's relevant, especially when your vote impacts so many people that have lives nothing like yours.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Yeah, and I mean, you know, I've had to let go of friendships because people are like, we're gonna vote for Trump and this administration and just everything that it represents, and oh, the economy, they're gonna fix the economy. Like, that's what I kept hearing. And my life is short, like I just want to be able to like make as much money and get as much as I possibly can, no matter the expense to other people. And I literally was just like, okay, so that's not the morals that I believe in. And yeah, I think the world is seeing that selfish energy that has been surrounding us like our whole lives again. And just like you said, with the pandemic and then also the election, and that's all the things that they're taking away, like all the rights they're stripping away. It's just like, wow, you're really seeing what it is, what's really behind the curtain, right? And it's disappointing, but again, that's why we're here, right? Trying to help make a difference. And it's sad when not everyone feels that way. You know, I don't necessarily expect everyone to be an activist, but at least try to vote and be aware and teach your children, teach the next generation. I mean, now teach yourself, obviously, but like we need to fix these things because it's not gonna go away. I feel like it's almost just like the door has been blown open. And I'm sure there's some people that are still like, because of their privilege, aren't even paying attention. I know some of those people, yeah, in Nashville and country music, like I see it. But eventually, like, where are you gonna be left if the people who have been holding you up in some ways aren't there anymore? I just think it's like that kind of mentality that unfortunately I want to say more people are waking up, but I just wish it was faster.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

I get it. And I feel like the number one question I get asked by people, whether it's related to the podcast or when people find out I'm an activist, is well, I don't even know where to start. Like I want to be helpful to the world and I don't know what to do. And usually my first response will be to identify your privileges and then work really hard to root out the biases that got you there, and that will inherently make you a better person for society. Like, yes, you can go vote a certain way, or you can go volunteer, you can go to a protest, those things are all really important. But you know, you still see so many people showing up and doing that who have the biases still that they don't think they do, or they think that there's like one right way to do it when they are still holding these thoughts or truths in their mind about the way the world works that still comes from a privileged place. I think it's okay, as long as it's, you know, obviously you aren't someone who's done something awful or whatnot, but I think it's okay to just acknowledge you're privileged, that you didn't realize you were privileged or that you had a bias or whatever, and to then say, I'm gonna actively work on it. And then also not expect those other people with the uh lived experiences you don't understand to then have to educate you and inform you. Like you have to be willing to do the work to unroot all of that in your mind. Again, someone like me, I mean, growing up in kind of the deep south in the Ozarks, I was really proud to be a liberal. Most of my family is not, they're very conservative, and it was always a joke that I was like the black sheep. And, you know, I was like so proud to vote for Obama. And in my mind, I thought, oh, but I am already liberal, like I already get it, you know. And then once I got out of Arkansas and I went to college and I started being exposed to more diversity and more ways of thinking, I started to realize that even though my heart was really in the right place and I had a lot of good intent in wanting to help people, that there was a lot I needed to unlearn, right? I think I really dug into like the white savior complex and how much white women have failed, women of color in the feminist movement. And like I worked really hard personally to undo a lot of the thoughts and mindsets that I had that I thought were okay because I thought, well, at my core, I'm a good person and I'm liberal. But you really gotta be willing to like dig in the weeds and in the trenches and do that work, and also not be afraid to acknowledge I was wrong about some stuff. Like I got a lot of it right, but I've gotten a lot of it wrong, and I'm gonna fix that. Yeah. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

It is okay.

Unlearning Bias On Trans Rights

SPEAKER_01 32:39

And there's examples that I've had in my own life where I didn't think I knew a trans person growing up. I didn't really understand. And then I had to educate myself about that. And I had a trans friend who was in the middle of transitioning, and I had been dating someone at this time that had been using a trans slur, which I didn't know was a slur. And I had mentioned it to them, my friend who was transitioning, and they were so like offended that they were like, I need to take a step away from you in space while I transition. I was like, wow, okay, I'm so sorry. Like, first of all, and I need to educate myself further. So that was an example. And I think another example for me is I have a Jewish lost name. And though my parents weren't Zionist or pro-Israel, like my some of my other family is, there's things that society and people around me, again, not my parents, but some other family had been like saying about you know, pro-Israel and everything, and I just had no idea. And so someone followed me because they loved Barefant and Pregnant, and they commented and they're like, this was like right when the war started, and no one was talking about it. And I was very much receiving a lot of the pro-Israel side, and someone had said, Why don't you talk more about Palestine? And I had put something on my story because I grew up with some Palestinian and Israeli students just saying, like, nobody really knows what to do, but like everyone's acknowledging this has been a problem and things, and we're all educating ourselves. And this person got really angry because I was like, Oh, I I did put something on my story, and I just acknowledged it that in that way because I was still starting to educate myself, and they were so upset with me, like they basically put me on blast and unfollowed me all these things. And that was really a wake-up call for me to educate myself more about the history behind Israel and Palestine, because we were obviously always told, well, Israel was formed because of the horrible things that happened to the Jewish people in the Holocaust, but it's so much deeper than that, and just the way it's been done is just so horrible, this genocide. And I mean, I'm one of the only Jewish people that I know in my circle with Jewish heritage, I should say, that is pro-Palestine, which is kind of wild, even though I know there's more and more people waking up to it. But, you know, that was just another example of something that you know I had to educate myself about. And again, it's what you do with the information once you have it that shows your morality. So yeah, and then I led me to my friend Saadia, who's a content creator, and we started this series, which we haven't done in a while, but it was called Voices for Peace because she's a very pro-Palestine creator, and you know, just wanted to have that platform and use my platform. And I lost some followers. You know, there's some Jewish people who are like, you know, this is really gonna get in the way of your message about women's rights, like don't let it take that away. And I was just like, it's all like we're saying, inter you know, interconnected here. And again, in the beginning, it was it was scary. I mean, there's still things that are scary to like say online, but I have a platform and I have a voice and I want to be able to use it again, you know, give that stage to the people who don't have one.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah,

Learning Palestine’s History Publicly

SPEAKER_00 35:57

I think that at least for me, like sometimes I find it easier to post like a controversial what I would imagine many people in our community would not consider controversial, but in America, like a controversial take on a social justice subject. I find that to almost be easier or like to talk about it on this podcast than to like confront it with my own family sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Oh yeah, but I can imagine too, like I'm grateful like my immediate family. We align on pretty much everything, but yeah, to have family, that would be very hard. I know that must be very hard.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Yeah, and a lot of people in the South go through that. And I think that maybe encouragement from my experience is sometimes it may really be a lost cause in terms of getting them to see what you see in the world, but you can then turn to the outer community in public and try to change lives and opinions that way. It doesn't have to be like a one size fits all approach. Especially when going back to the very beginning of our conversation, knowing when to engage and disengage, I think some conversations are just not worth it or are not going to happen. But there are so many other people who actually might listen, or your specific perspective might actually be impactful to them.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Yeah. And then again, the difference between hate speech and not having, you know, being that way.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Willing to have an actual conversation versus just being hateful.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yeah. And I I mean, you know, and experiencing things online, you know, just when we're talking about identity, having a Jewish last name and getting anti-Semitic comments, or being pro-choice and getting misogynistic comments and being openly bisexual and getting homophobic comments, and also being in an interracial relationship with my partner, Marcus, you know, it's like we get hate too. And it's just like, whoa, okay, you know, but then you you get it's it actually is like I'm more comfortable now in my skin and who I am to be able to like just see that, like going back to the beginning of our conversation, seeing a comment like that and being like, okay, this has really nothing to do with me personally. This is so much bigger than just me.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Yeah, I get it. Shout out to our bisexual friends. I am also bisexual. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yes, and I'm in an interracial marriage. Oh, wow. I didn't know that either. Very proud that my husband is an immigrant, so I'm very loud about immigration rights as well. So shout out to those people. Switching gears as we kind of wrap up, the emotional toll of this work for anyone, whether they're in a nonprofit space, etc., is very hard. I think when you then add on your part in music and trying to connect with people through creativity. And as a musician, I imagine that adds a whole other layer, especially as you've kind of talked about being in country, music specifically, and then add on all the other layers of your identities and how that impacts the emotional toll being so intense. How do you take care of yourself and what does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 39:14

I

Self Care For Long Haul Activism

SPEAKER_01 39:15

love this question because I've struggled with self-care, and I feel like having the eating disorder and like recovering from that has been a journey as well. And I think what I didn't used to do, I should say, is I didn't used to give care back to myself in terms I would just get up and start working immediately, like not having breakfast, not going for a walk, not moving my body in some way. Now I make sure to get up and have water, have breakfast before anything. You know, sometimes I do end up on my phone a little bit, but then I'm like, okay, before I like sit down on my computer and really do this work, I have to take that moment for myself. I put on some like high frequency music or like meditation music. Sometimes I try to meditate in the morning and have my routine and take my dog for a walk and then start my work. Because I mean, the worst headspace I've ever been in is just like being stuck in a cycle of putting out all this content, like posting multiple times a day, having my music, but also having Rise Above Justice movement and not having given myself the care that I need and taking a moment to reflect on myself and just like where I am in the present. And that also leads to anxiety and all these different things that I've struggled with that it's so important to be in the present moment. It's like, what does this day, this moment need? Because as I always say, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And I am someone who's like has been known to be impatient and just like, why is this not working? Why is this not happening now? But it's like I realize now like I'm taking it day by day by day instead of okay, I have to get to the finish line right now. Because first of all, what does the finish line look like? Okay, we get have goals, right? But there's so much work that goes into it behind the scenes, and up until we get to these moments where it's like, wow, change is really possible, which it is. I have a lot of hope because I see a lot of people that are doing work like you, like everybody I've seen through Rise Above, and so many examples of people who are doing so much amazing work. So in order to keep that fire, that flame alive, I have to give back to myself. Because otherwise it's like, you know, we're humans here having this human experience, living our lives, but we also have to have moments of joy and not just like going, going, going, going and down a path where you're trying to help people. But if you're again, if you're not giving back to yourself, it actually might harm, you know, do more harm than good when you're not approaching it from like the right mindset kind of thing. So it's definitely a big lesson I've had to learn, and I'm in such a better place now than I've ever been. I feel like this is definitely like a healthy spot, even though it still gets frustrating, it's still hard work, as you know. And now I'm able to like every day I feel like I get stronger, the more I give back to myself. Because doing the work gives back to me too, but I have to take care of my body and my mind, because then it's just, you know, you're not gonna be as effective as you want to be.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Yeah, I mean, after this last presidential election, I went through about a three-month window of really, really bad mental health. Oh, me too. Me too. I've struggled with mental health my whole life, but I think the difference here was that when you add on the doom scrolling, and then just every day rights being gutted, laws being changed.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Yeah, the world being so out of whack on top of your own mental health is like the wor it's the worst.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

I know it's so scary. I know. My husband regularly was like, I'm actually very concerned about you. He was like, I feel like I'm gonna need to check you in somewhere at some point. Like I could not disengage from what was going on, and I felt guilt. Like I have to stay glued into everything that's going on because if I don't, I don't know about something. Like I'm letting those people down that are suffering by letting their plight be ignored or not be acknowledged. And it did hit a breaking point for me where I mean, I knew I needed to be taking care of myself, but you can get to a place where you feel like, why is my well-being any more important or moments of joy more important than the suffering these other people are going through? But it's just not sustainable. And for people who want to get involved in social justice in any capacity, that's a really important lesson. Is like you said, like you've got to pour back into yourself because you can only give so much, whether it's your mental space, your physical activity, your finances, like however it is that you've chosen to be uh committed. Yourself to activism or to change, it's not an endless well. And so I think it's okay to be really passionate and care and keep doing the work and also pour back into yourself. So there's something to pull from, especially when the times are at their worst and things are really, really hard. And that's a really important lesson for everyone. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

And one of the biggest things they talk about with the civil rights movement is how important rest is. That's something that people had to do. Otherwise, it wouldn't have gotten done. And I mean it's continuing to this day, but you know, same concept for sure.

Start Local Support And Find Hope

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Well, speaking of those people who want to do more, for people listening who are feeling moved but overwhelmed, where do you think they should start?

SPEAKER_01 44:46

I think I always tell people to check out their local indivisible chapters because they have one literally everywhere. Get involved in your community is like I know people keep saying that. It's like, oh, where do I start in my community? Well, I would say again, the indivisible chapters will tell you what's going on specifically where you're living. And I think showing up again to the polls, even on the smaller, not the nationwide elections, but the small local elections is are so important because your voice matters, your representation matters, and you want people representing you that share in your same values are aligned with you. I really think it's important to start there. And yeah, again, like some people I understand social anxiety, like not wanting to go out and meet people. But I think as local as you can go is like the best because it starts in your community immediately. And then for people who feel isolated and don't like the community that surrounds, you know, the immediate community that surrounds them, I think there are amazing organizations online that you can check out. We have a list of those, I believe, in our bio for Rise Above Justice Movement. So if you want to go check us out at Rise Above Justice Movement and check out our bio, we have some organizations that we recommend. And I think that I get how it could be super overwhelming when you're first starting. And where do I start? And I think also you maybe honing in on making some sort of list, like what are the things I really care about? Like what's getting me to the polls? What's getting me to even want to look at how do I get involved in my community? Like, what are those things? And then starting there, because again, it's all connected as we're talking about, and there's no wrong place to start. It's just like once you start somewhere, it's gonna help move that needle forward in some way.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Yeah. Awesome. How can people support both Rise Above Justice Movement and your music?

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Thank you. I think Rise Above, we are again grassroots, as a lot of people are, and we're not getting paid for the work we're doing, we're volunteering. So even if you if you can't give money, like just following, supporting, liking a post, resharing a post helps so much. The same thing goes for my music. I do have a GoFundMe for my music and completely independent artist, no labeled, no financial backing. So it's a lot of again, very connected, like music and politics, right? Where it's grassroots organizing and fundraising and all these things. So we do have a new album coming out this fall. But it, you know, again, if you can't financially support, absolutely understand. You just like again, liking a post, following, sharing, that all helps so much. So yeah, I just I want to always be able to continue the work I'm doing. And since my music and activism are so connected, so intertwined, any help and support I can get as an independent artist as well as an activist with Rise Above Justice Movement, a co-founder, is so appreciated. You know, just the fact that people are wanting to listen to what we have to say, or you know, what I have to say is through Rise Above, or just as a musician and singer is a gift. And I'm glad people are along on this journey. And thank you for letting me speak to your followers and your listeners as well, because again, I just think that what you're doing is so important as well as just uplifting these stories. And I'm glad we connected.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Yeah, I am really excited to have had you on. And I think your point about how if if even all you can do is like like or repost something, even speaking to both of our podcasts, I think something that a lot of people may not realize or may not be uh personally impacted by is like when you're discussing the kind of stuff we're discussing online, we deal with shadow bands, we deal with the algorithm pushing us down. And so whether it's our social media or our podcast, I know both of us have to struggle with how do we reach people when the algorithms are like actively working against you and liking content, reposting content, leaving reviews on both of our podcasts, sharing the stuff that we're sharing is really important because if you found the work we're doing helpful or insightful, the odds are someone else will too. And I think it's really important to help keep spreading the message that activists and women working in these spaces are trying to share because we are getting silenced by big tech and the government. And it's really important that we uplift each other as much as possible. Absolutely agree. I like to always end on a positive note and ask what is giving you hope right now.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Ooh, there's a lot to give hope, you know. Again, like just connecting with people like you, Rachel, and then seeing the people that are in the comments or people that are coming out to shows, or I'm also part of a group called Singing Resistance Nashville. And just seeing how many people are showing up and wanting to be a part of community right now gives me hope. And I do see more and more people waking up every day to the reality of what's going on. People who are not happy with it. And I don't think people want to necessarily quote unquote tolerate it anymore, and then it's giving me hope just like connecting with people for sure.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

Yeah, I love that. I think a common thread in every episode is the importance of community, whether you're building it or you're supporting one. And I just love that it always comes back to that because I think it's it is really important. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me.

Final Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_00 50:31

Thank you for listening to Working Girl. If this conversation resonated with you, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone who cares about building a more just world. You can learn more about today's guest and find additional resources in the show notes. Until next time, stay curious, stay compassionate, and keep doing the work.