The Reality of Abortion Access in Texas with Anna Rupani

When people talk about abortion access, the conversation usually focuses on laws, politics, and court decisions.

But what happens when someone actually needs care?

In this season finale of Working Girl, Rachel sits down with Anna Rupani, the first Executive Director of Fund Texas Choice, the oldest statewide practical support abortion organization in Texas.

Anna shares what it really looks like to help Texans access abortion care in a state where many people must travel hundreds or even thousands of miles to receive treatment. From transportation and lodging to childcare and emotional support, she pulls back the curtain on the hidden barriers that many people never see.

The conversation also explores Anna's journey from immigration and family law into reproductive justice advocacy, what she's learned about leadership during some of the most challenging moments in the movement, and why rest, resilience, and empathy are essential for sustainable change.

Together, Rachel and Anna discuss:

• What practical support abortion organizations actually do
• The realities Texans face when seeking abortion care
• How policy decisions impact everyday people
• Leadership, burnout, and building resilient teams
• Why abortion access affects more than just abortion patients
• The importance of reducing stigma through honest conversations
• How hope can exist even in difficult moments

Whether you are deeply familiar with reproductive justice or just beginning to learn, this episode offers an honest, human-centered look at one of the most debated issues in America today.

Because behind every policy debate is a person simply trying to access healthcare.

Listen now and subscribe.

Check out the show notes for ways to get involved, learn more, and support the work.

Transcript

Welcome To Working Girl

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Working Girl, the podcast where we pull back the curtain on the real work, building a more just world. I'm your host, Rachel Power. Each episode, I sit down with women who are the front lines of change, organizing, advocating, dealing, and challenging the system that they are. Together we talk honestly about the victories, stepbacks, and deeply human stories of hyperjects. Because in a world where change can feel painfully stuck, these are the women who are feeding to give up. Welcome back to Working Girls. This is actually the season finale. Can you believe it? We have had a season full of so many amazing conversations. We're not stopping here. Our last conversation is going to be an amazing one. Today I'm speaking with Anna Rupani, who serves as the first executive director of Fund Texas Choice, the oldest statewide practical support abortion organization in Texas. She was born and raised a Texan, a first-generation Pakistani American, and a proud Muslim. She has spent almost her entire career in social justice work. Her family's experience with the immigration system put Anna on the track to practice immigration and family law, where she focused on supporting undocumented immigrant survivors of trauma, domestic violence, human trafficking, and sexual assault. Right before her arrival to fund Texas Choice, Anna also worked with minors dealing with the immigration system at the height of child separation. She received her jurisdictor from New England School of Law, her Master's in Social Work from Florida State University, and her Bachelor's of Science in Business Management from Boston College. Anna has been awarded the Outstanding Co-Chair Award for her work with Lawyers Against Domestic Violence Committee of the Dallas Association of Young Lawyers, the Rising Roggio Award by the Dallas Women's Lawyers Association for her work as a young female lawyer, and the Judge Reginald C. Lindsay Public Service Law Book Award by the Massachusetts Black Lawyers Association. When not working as a pro-abortion advocate in her free time, Anna enjoys hanging out, traveling with her partner and their dog Bella. She loves to hang out with her nibblings, read, hike, watch movies, and play video games. Welcome to the show, Anna. Glad to be here. Also, I had to Google nibblings. I was like, oh, that's such a cute little term. And now I want to use it all the time.

Service As A Lifelong Thread

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Okay, so obviously you've worked in immigration law, family law, trauma advocacy before leading fun Texas Choice. What thread connects all of those experiences for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:43

I think it's that social justice piece of it, right? For me, growing up as a Muslim, service is like a huge part of my upbringing and a part of the religion. And that is like what I grew up around and grew up with. My parents were what you could call the equivalent of like, they weren't an imam, but they were an equivalent to like a pastor of our place of worship for like 12 to 13 years of my life. So it was like the tenets of Islam about service were just very much ingrained in everything I did and everything they raised me with. And then when I was looking for even the university I wanted to go to, I landed on Boston College because the Jesuits are all about service and academics, and their motto was men and women for others. So you go to school, get an education, and you become a man or a woman for other people. And your work is supposed to be done for other people. And so I think that upbringing around social justice and service created like the trajectory of the work that I was going to do in the future. And I think it was because all of the work that I've done is intersectional, right? It's all connected. If you're not in a safe relationship, if you're not in a safe home, if you don't have a safe status, you're at the risk of not being housed or at the risk of being harmed or in danger or assaulted. And so all of that is connected because safety is at the core of all of that.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Yeah, that's so true. I normally would ask: was there a particular moment when you realize your career wasn't going to just be a job but part of a larger mission? But it sounds like you kind of always knew it would be a larger mission.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yeah, I mean, mostly I knew that I wanted to be a lawyer since I was seven, but I couldn't figure out like what kind of law I wanted to do. And funny enough, I said I was never gonna do immigration law because my family was so impacted by immigration that I was like, I am not gonna do immigration law. And then when I went to college, I was like, yeah, I want to do service work. I just don't know how to make that happen with the law. And then I ran across someone getting their master's in social work. I talked to them for a while and I was like, ooh, I want to do law that connects social work and the legal systems together. And I should do that by way of getting my masters first working in the clinical setting. And it was in that clinical setting that I was a domestic violence advocate in London, where I learned about a special domestic violence court. So it was specifically for survivors of domestic violence and intimate partner violence. And the judges only heard their cases, and I was like, oh, that's exactly the lawyer I want to be. But I always knew that it had to be something connected to social justice and service work.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Yeah. And I also really love the fact of being Muslim really helped shape your identity and also and knowing exactly how you wanted to serve people. It's like it created that really solid foundation for you that you could just build on. And even just the stories you told there, it sounds like it was just a matter of the right moments and opportunities falling into your life to show you and guide you the way, but you always had that foundation. Exactly. Yeah, I love that.

What Fund Texas Choice Does

SPEAKER_00 5:46

So for listeners who may not be familiar with Fund Texas Choice, can you explain what the organization does and the role it plays in supporting Texans?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, so Fund Texas Choice, um, as you mentioned, is the oldest and largest practical support organization in the state of Texas. And what that means is we provide actual practical logistical support for folks who travel. I know that sounds like a lot of words, but it's like, what are the logistics you have when you're traveling out of state to get to your abortion care? We will pay for that. And we existed long before abortion row was overturned. And so, folks, Texas is a big state. People still needed to travel in the state and out of the state to get their care. And so we would pay for their travel, we pay for their lodging, we pay for their food assistance, gas assistance. If they are given like painkillers after the fact, we try to help pay for that, or their pads or anything like that, that they have menstrual products that they might need, or sanitary products, we pay for that. So all of the in-between costs is what we take care of for any Texan that needs an abortion when they're traveling.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

I mean, it just sounds like a lot of very practical support that people probably don't think or realize someone would need. What do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions people have about your type of organization?

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Well, what I would say is people didn't think that we needed to exist until Ro fell, which I've heard that for so many times, even post-Row, and I hear that today, even they're like, wow, you've been around for 13 years or 12 years. Like, how did that happen? Like, why? And I'm like, Texas is a big state. I don't think you realize how big Texas is. So I think that's one big one. And I think the other one is often people don't realize like what people go through in abortion. Like having to get healthcare even in your local city can be really hard sometimes. And then to travel, people don't realize like a lot of our callers have never traveled before. So everyone just assumes folks know how to travel. So why is there a need for someone like us or an organization like ours to help them? But that's just as we know, as you probably know, travel's a luxury, and travel's not something that everyone can have access to. So there's always that misconception that people know what they're doing or know how to handle it, and that's not the case. And then the costs of everything, there's always a misconception of how expensive things are, or that people should like use the least affordable option to get the care they want. So a lot of times there's this misconception that paying for a nice hotel room is a luxury and that shouldn't happen because people they can probably stay in someone's house or something. And I'm like, everyone deserves to get healthcare with dignity and care and respect in their privacy. And so a lot of times that misconception of like the cost of everything, they're like, wait, y'all pay how much for a hotel room? And I'm like, yeah, it's because everyone deserves that dignity.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah, absolutely. When you were talking about the traveling aspect, I thought about as well. A lot of southern states are like this, but Texas is primarily rural areas. There's a lot of people in rural, small areas that just never leave their town. Like I grew up in a very small town in the Ozarks, and most people just never left. Like some people were very proud that they had never left the town or had never gone outside of Arkansas. And I think that that's probably got to be really daunting as well if you're in a small rural area to have never gone anywhere and now suddenly you need care that you definitely can't get where you live. For people to assume that you're gonna know how to do it is just very unfair.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Yeah. And I mean, that's actually like I love that you bring that point up because several of our callers ask for support with a companion, and we can't always provide that support for every caller because I'm sure you can appreciate how expensive that can be. And so we have to like balance that with other dire circumstances or other necessities for when someone in fact does, should always have a companion versus like first-time flyers, anxiety and producing, right? And people that have never left that can create not just anxiety, but could potentially be a deterrent factor for even wanting to get their abortion because they don't know how to navigate the systems and they don't want to do it alone. And so we have to balance all of that. But if we could help everyone with a companion, we would, but that just we can't because it's like from a cost perspective, it's so high. And so I think that's like a great point that you point out because we deal with those folks that have to leave from rural areas and are inarquists about doing so. And I also like the point that you pointed out rural areas. Like when I say that we've existed long before Rafael, part of that reason is Texas, as big as it

Misconceptions About Travel And Dignity

SPEAKER_01 10:10

is, is a healthcare desert, right? It's a gynecological desert. It was an abortion desert before Rafael. And we were created because House Built 2 at the time in 2013 that passed. And some folks might remember it. It's when Representative Wendy Davis was filibustering in her pink tennis shoes. And I remember that moment so vividly because I was studying for the bar exam to come back to Texas, and I was like, whoa, something great is happening in Texas, and it like reignited my light and passion to come back to Texas. I'm like, oh yeah, I've been gone for a long time, but I remember why Texans are so amazing because of this fight that they have in them. And right after that bill passed, 50% of the clinics in Texas shut down. So we went from over 40 to 20. And then within the next few months, we went down to eight clinics in the entire state, all concentrated in major cities. And so in West Texas, the panhandle other states were closer for care than their own home state. And so that's why we were founded to support that need because people don't realize how far people are traveling or how the closest clinic is hundreds and hundreds or thousands of miles away. And that's scary to do when you're used to, like you said, being from a smaller town and people are happy that they've never left that town.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Yeah. Well, speaking of how our laws and access has changed quite a bit, how has your organization had to evolve over the last several years?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Yeah, we've grown significantly. Within like six months of me starting, we went from a four-person organization to a two-person organization. And that was like at the height of when SB8, which was a six-week ban that was getting passed, happened. And when the six-week ban was enacted, it was still a team of two and a consultant and one part-time employee. And now we're a team of 11 folks, which is great. So we've grown pretty significantly. So we've grown to answer after that need. We have had to like think about the process by which we fund, but we continue to fund exactly the needs that are there. We don't have a cap on each person only gets a thousand dollars worth of practical support. If someone's practical support costs us $1,500 and someone else's costs us $800, that's like how we operate. But we've grown to respond to that need. And then we've continued to try to work with other organizations. There was a moment in time when we had too many calls. We still have too many calls, but there's a time where we had way too many calls and we couldn't even get through phone calls. And so we started working with other organizations really deeply to support us. And so other organizations have also opened their capacities because Texas is the largest state with a dam, and most of the people are coming from Texas. And so I would say the biggest thing we've done is grown to respond to that need and then continue to raise dollars to fund the needs that are there. I would say like we've had to increase the cost of gas assistance. We've had to like rethink about how much we're paying for flights because flights keep increasing. And a lot of people forget that what happens globally impacts us here, or what's happening domestically impacts us here. So we've seen ticket prices go up ever since with what's happening with Iran is happening, right? We've seen, and that impacts us because gas, as you know, has gone up. So flights have gone up. Then domestically, lots of people don't think about like we're in Texas, right? Like there's UT football games, there's the Red River rivalries that increase costs on those weekends. So like when our callers are traveling, if it's a football weekend in some of those states, our hotel prices are up. So we've had to like also think about oh, this thing is going to be happening this weekend now more than we used to because all of those things come into play. So New Mexico, one of the states that a lot of our callers go to, the balloon festival in Albuquerque is a big one. It like shoots prices up. So like we've had to pay attention more to things like that that we wouldn't have otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

I would never have thought of those things. So that's actually really interesting. And yeah, I imagine, especially in Texas, that football season is a hard one to get around. So obviously, you are the first executive director of Fun Texas Choice, which is not only an incredible accomplishment and something that I think all women should be so proud of, but I'm curious what you've learned about leadership during some of those really challenging moments for the organization.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

I think for me, there's like two parts of the leadership that I think a lot about. One has a lot to do with resiliency. Like, resiliency is not a joke. And I say that very wholeheartedly in a meaningful way. Like, not only are Texans resilient, but you have to be resilient to be a leader in abortion work because it is like the punches keep getting

Texas As A Health Care Desert

SPEAKER_01 14:40

thrown, and you have to show up like awake, ready, even if you're exhausted or tired, which also leads to the idea that like one of the lessons in leadership that I've thought about is rest as resistance is not just a phrase, it is like factual. And so one thing like I think about from a leadership perspective at this organization, when I started, we were on a five-day work week. And as we grew, I moved like I worked to move our team to a four-day work week. And the reason I did that was because rest is important and this work is really hard, and you're barely recovering on Saturday from the week, and then Sunday you're probably for the next week, and so you're just like constantly exhausted, and so that extra day makes a difference, right? And so that piece of it, I think, was really, really important that rest is important, and like the point is to have us tired so we're not willing to fight back. So we like make it as important as ever to take rest when we need to. Our organization started doing week-wide shutdowns every so often to force a break on everybody too. So the beginning of summer or like the beginning of July, we take a whole week off because of that summer break. We like enforce that, and it's partly because the work is hard and we have to be able to like take breaks. And the other some of the challenging moments is sometimes they think the work is so dire that people want to move in urgency, but you have to slow down. Oftentimes people forget that urgency is rooted to white supremacy in ways that we don't think about. So it's important as a leader to not show urgency in moments for us so that the team also is responding in a way that doesn't feel urgent and still getting the work done because we didn't create the situation, we're just here to help fill in the gap. And I will say, like, sometimes it feels like I know we're doing enough, but everyone often feels like we're not doing enough because there's so much more we could do, and that's why it's like we have to resist that urgency culture of, oh my god, we have to do this because of this, this, and this. Yeah, and we didn't create it. So if we're so tired and we're acting in urgency, we're never gonna be able to get it done.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Yeah, and the work will always be there. I think that's something that so many activists struggle with is when wanting to take that break or pause, to feeling that also that guilt of, but there's so many people that need help. Who am I to take a break? And you have to remember to fill your own cup as well, because the work is endless, the energy is not, we have to be able to get through each day.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Yeah, I think that's so true. And I think the second piece of that I will say is some folks know this, but I am a recent survivor of breast cancer. And so, like as a leader and having like gone through cancer, it's like really shifted how I've shown up for the work because I'm often like, yeah, this is really hard, and we have to just take it as it comes. And some days it's gonna be slow, and some days it's gonna be hard, and some days it's gonna be good, and some days it's gonna be like, well, that sucked. And I think if we can acknowledge all, and I bring the survivorship into this because that is exactly how my journey was. Really good days, really, really awful days, a lot of hills and valleys, and I often find that the work resembles

Scaling Up After SB8

SPEAKER_01 18:03

a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Well, I really want to commend you for staying so committed to the cause despite going through such a major personal challenge.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

I cannot imagine that was in any way easy. And even if perhaps the people you helped were not aware, I think it it speaks to a much broader mission that you have and how strong you are. Thank you. So speaking of leadership, obviously this is a very publicly debated space, especially in the South. How do you lead through that and stay focused on the people that are at the center of the work?

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah, I mean, I won't say that it hasn't been hard. I have to pause and think about when I was like, oh, I have to compartmentalize and pretend that everything is okay, even though it's not. When I took this role on, like before I applied for this role, I knew that Roe was gonna get overturned in our lifetime. I knew that Roe was unfortunately not gonna be here forever. And I didn't think that it was gonna happen within like a year basically of my leadership. And so when I took this role, I wasn't prepared for that. And I'd be lying and saying that, oh, I knew that it was gonna be this bad or whatever, because I didn't. And I remember when SV8 passed, that that first night I was asked to appear on a national television show, media or news show, and I was hesitating because I was like, oh, I have not been on this job for a year, and I know how dangerous people's names that are doing abortion work, like what that can mean, right? The dangerous threats, the like attacks. And so I was like, should I be doing this? Should I be going on public television and putting myself out there? And I hesitated and I ultimately ended up doing it, and I remember like getting basic messages from strangers or phone voicemails at our organization being full with like threats. And I won't say that I wasn't hesitant there, but then like I also had to step back and think about the work and the vulnerability in that work is a strength, not a weakness, and that we as leaders have to share honestly about what we're struggling with and what's happening, as well as allow others to step in and create the culture that is important for the safety and the diress the situation requires. And then also where we as leaders need to think about radical prioritization with intention. And so all these bad things that are happening, we still have to like balance that and then think about okay, we can prioritize, we can lead with empathy, we can be resilient, and then like we don't have to be perfect, we're gonna make mistakes and just having that honest conversation, I thought was really important. And like, I think that's what has allowed me to center the people at the work because Texans need help. We are a Texas organization that has Texans that work here for Texans, Texans for Texans is like what we do, and so I think about that all the time because if you lead with empathy, you're centering the people that are calling in and the people that are talking to the callers. If you're prioritizing, you can balance how many folks we can serve every month, you know. And so I think that's like what has led to allowing myself and even the organization, the other folks at this organization, center the people at work instead of the work itself.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Yeah. I love so much that you just said that because at my job, my token tagline is lead with empathy. I just say it all the time. And I think it's so relevant to like every facet of being a leader. And especially when things are hard.

unknown 21:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

So I I love that you have that mindset as well. So we talked a little bit earlier about the different types of challenges that your clients have to face when needing. Get abortion care. But I want to even broaden to some other things that might inhibit them that people may not think about, like caregiving responsibilities, their immigration status, or even their workplace flexibility.

Leadership Through Rest And Resilience

SPEAKER_00 22:15

How have you seen that impact someone's ability to get care and how are you guys able to help with that?

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Yeah, I mean, I'd be lying and saying that that doesn't come up. It comes up all the time. You know, we do work with folks that are undocumented or folks that are English is not the preferred language or their primary language. We work with disabled folks, we work with folks who can't take time off their work. I mean, it impacts, you know, they can't get wages that day. And so again, we try to leave with empathy as best as we can, but we also we also try to meet our callers where they're at. So if someone is having language access or is nervous about their status, like we try to work with them and figure out can we help someone else travel with them for their safety, right? We work a lot with Frontera Fund when it comes to folks that are undocumented because Frontera Fund is the fund that works with the valley. And so they work with everyone in the valley. So they're experts at working with folks that need abortion care that are undocumented. When it's someone who has like caregiving responsibilities, you know, 67% of our callers are already parents. And so that's like oftentimes people are shocked when we say that because you're like, wait, parents are having abortions. I was like, Yeah, parents are having abortions and they're the larger population. So if there is like especially we and we have had callers that are breastfeeding during the time they're getting their abortion, and so we work with them and we help pay for like either a babysitter to come with them to watch their infant while they're going through the procedure so they can still continue to pump andor breastfeed if they need to or nurse if they need to. And we will either provide child care stipends for folks that need that, or again, we'll help them travel with them. And in when companions are necessary, we provide as much of that as we can too. So we try to really meet the callers where they're at because it's not their fault they're having to go through this experience in such a like what feels like a traumatic way, right? Like you can't go to your doctor. You have to like talk to eight different organizations to figure all this out. And so it's a lot. And we try to what we that's why we provide holistic and wraparound care. We talk to the callers from the day we get them till the day they get back, even though like we've already booked all the travel. We check with them and ask them, like, hey, did you make it to the hotel? Did you make it to the clinic? Are you back at the hotel? Are you back at your house? Are you at the airport to make some of that hard-fought uncertainty? So their immigration status or if they have childcare needs, et cetera, make it a little bit easier on them.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yeah. So basically, you've spent years working directly with people who have been infected by complex systems. What have those experiences from your career taught you about how policy decisions show up in everyday life?

SPEAKER_01 24:55

I don't think the policymakers are talking to the people who they're making decisions about. So that's like just real. I think a lot of policy, policy doesn't show up in everyday life by often creating confusion and or uncertainty in my experience, at least in this work and in immigration work as well. And I think they often forget to center the people that are gonna be the most impacted. I think policy decisions often are made for the folks that are on one side or the other, but like the large middle is often forgotten, and that's the everyday Texan, the everyday person that just needs care. And I don't mean care, just abortion care. I mean like immigration care, housing care, all of those things. And so I do often think these policy decisions impact the work and an abortion work. I can even talk about immigration. When these laws change, the next day, either when they go into effect or when they're being publicized so much, literally the next day to the whole like several days after that, our phone lines are flooded with people thinking abortion's been banned, their appointment is going to be canceled. When I was an immigration attorney, anytime something would happen, especially with a lot of executive orders, they're like, wait, am I getting deported? And like the phone lines would be off the hook. And so people freak out. And I think in the uncertainty in all of that is the point, right? They want to confuse us, they want to make it harder. And so I think often these policies didn't show up by creating confusion, creating chaos. And what I like to say is cruelty is the point, that is part of it, right? Not knowing is cruel, and it's okay because who has access to that information or how to navigate it is often not the callers we see, right? It's usually, and so these laws impact black, indigenous, and other persons of colors and the people that are most marginalized because that's the point. It's to continue to keep them more marginalized.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah, it's so interesting how the conversation around abortion access has changed so much over the years and at so many different levels from the advocacy level to the lawmaker level to the people who just need the care. It's really radically changed. Imagine when you're the person who just needs the care, it is so daunting.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Absolutely. And I can like, you know, I haven't had an abortion, but people often think these abortion bans only impact, and and this is again how do these policies show up in everyday life, they often think it only impacts what's getting abortions, but that's just not true. It impacts anyone trying to get any kind of health care that could be impacted by that. And so I had a polyp in my uterus post-SBA, and part of the prop, like to excise that polyp, I had to undergo a DNC, similar procedure to what would be an abortion. And in order to have the DNC, I was prescribed mysroprostal that I was supposed to take one the night before, one the morning of to weaken the

Public Scrutiny Threats And Empathy

SPEAKER_01 27:47

cervix to make the DNZ more easy and create less like trauma to my body and less harm. And typically they've had to change the processes now, but my OBGYN at the time, she was used to setting that prescription out the day before, picking up the patient would pick it up from the pharmacy that night or that like evening, have the one that night, and then one in the morning. And the pharmacist would not dispense the misoprostal to me. And I went to multiple pharmacies and I was not the misoprostal was not dispensed to me because they were in fear that I could have been pregnant, and they didn't have a record of whether I was pregnant or not. And so, therefore, if they gave me the misoprostal, they would have helped secure an abortion for me and then would be liable under SB8. And so they refused until my doctor was able to provide them notification, like proper documentation, which by the way didn't happen until another week later. And so my procedure was delayed by a month. Even though I was in excruciating pain during that time, I couldn't get my procedure because a law was created to ban abortions and I was unable to get just regular reproductive health care because of it. And so these policies don't show up in everyday life just like that, right? People can't access care, any kind of care a lot of times. And so that's what you see. You see the stories that ProPublica released of folks bleeding in the hospital parking lots, waiting to get care because doctors refuse to give them care because there's still a fetal, what fetal cardiac embryonic activity. And so more people refer it to as a heartbeat, but we know it's not a heartbeat until a certain time frame. And so they're not getting care just because of an arbitrary law that determines what is a heartbeat.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Just taking it in. It's it's hard. It's so hard, especially as women. I think there are so many aspects to women's health that male policymakers just could never understand, don't think about, don't care to think about. And yet now we see so many women suffering on such a larger scale than they were even previously. It honestly, uh which doesn't bode well for a podcast, but it honestly leaves me speechless. Yeah. Okay. So speaking of emotional reaction, obviously you must hear so many stories from people navigating a crisis or this type of uncertainty. How do you manage to carry these stories without letting them consume you?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

I will say, because I'm the executive director, I am not working with the callers directly unless my help is needed. But I have helped our callers before and I've worked in direct client access for my entire career. So it's funny, a lot of people think that folks who get their abortion they regret it or sad. And by and large, a lot of our callers are like, this is the best decision I've ever made. You saved me. But that doesn't mean that stories don't aren't heavy during the moment. Like the fear of getting in trouble or the fear of like, oh my God, what's gonna happen if they think I'm violating the law? All of that is heavy, right? And as the leader of an organization that has to worry about like our team, that is heavy too, because we navigate as an organization around these incredibly difficult to read laws, incredibly innocuous. They're meant to be confusing, right? They're meant to cause confusion so people don't know what to do. So, like we as like I as a leader have to think about how do we navigate it so that the team is safe, so that the work we're doing is legal within the laws, which everything we do, you know, is legal, and we work with attorneys to do that, but that is heavy. And I'd say joking around is helpful, something like you have to find an outlet. And the reason I say rest is radical, like we do have to rest, we have to be able to shut off. Like, all of those things are important, and reminding yourself the work is gonna be there tomorrow is like another big part of it. But the emotional reality of some of this stuff is really hard, and you have to be able to step away from it. I have often said once I become numb to the stories, that means it's my time to leave the job that I'm at because it's not that they're not incredibly heavy, but if I can't have a reaction to them, that means I've become cynical to the work, right? And so I have to make sure that I'm doing everything to not be cynical, and that means like

Barriers Like Work Status Childcare

SPEAKER_01 32:04

stepping away. I tend to watch what I call trash TV, like TV that's so like smutty or rom-coms or whatever, because I'm like, I need that happy ending at the end of the day, because I know for a lot of people that's not true. And so disconnecting is part of how you have to you allow it to not consume you. Whether you can do that is a different story, but you have to find the ways to try to do that.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

And I can imagine too, when the progress feels really slow or the setbacks feel overwhelming, staying connected to your purpose is even harder.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, absolutely. And I think therapy is another reason we're all able to do the work we do, because you have to be able to have a place to release this outlet without creating vicarious trauma for everyone around you, and also be able to just like release and be able to move on, right? Even if that takes a while, but and building coping skills that way. Like I think for me, a lot of times going on walks in the evening with our dog, like traveling, reading fantasy books a lot of times, and then and then playing video games, like those are a lot of my like outlets. You know, sometimes everyone's like, Oh, I think psycho to be a gamer, and I'm like, I don't know if I'm a gamer, but there's some games I like, and it's because I get to beat the get bad the bad guys, like and it's you know, that's where I take my anger out on these video games or watching even when I was like trying to recover from my breast cancer. I was watching a lot of those, you know, those vertical dramas. I was watching those, and I'm like, there's always a comeuppance or a vengeance story, and I'm like, yes, I'm so happy the person that caused all this harm is getting their due.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Yeah. For me, it's always been the Bravo shows. I am a sucker for it. Yeah. It gives me so much like mental relief. Especially because, like, in general, their problems are not comparable to the very serious stuff we're dealing with in social justice. So it's nice to kind of just unplug and look at these very funny problems that aren't really truly problems. Exactly. Okay, so as we wrap up, for someone listening who wants to better understand reproductive justice or they want to maybe better understand how it's affecting the South, et cetera, where would you encourage them to start?

SPEAKER_01 34:23

There's so many places where they could start. One place could be Fun Techless Choice's blogs. We have like several blogs like outlining what reproductive justice work is, like who it impacts, basic stuff so that people can actually connect the dots a little bit better. But I think another place where folks can start is on Instagram and TikTok, oddly enough, and following organizations that do this work on Texas Choice, but also Frontada Fund or Lilith Fund or any of your local abortion funds. I think that's really a great place to start. Another organization I think is a great place to start is called AVOW. There are C3, C4 partner that does advocacy work. And then especially in Texas, we have folks that we work with the ACLU on what is the Texas Abortion Advocacy Network. And so there's a cohort every several, like two or three times a year, and you attend classes in the evening once every month or so, and you learn more about abortion work and reproductive justice work and the connection. And then there's a what we call TAN, Texas Abortion Advocacy Network. There's a TAN conference, and so y'all like folks can get together and learn more and figure out how to use what you've learned and build a community within your own local areas. And so that's just like takes people from like ground zero all the way to get them to be experts in abortion advocacy. So I think that's like another great place to start.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, and I think it's worth mentioning that especially in the South, it can feel really taboo to even talk about abortion or reproductive justice. And I think because I've tried to implement so many uh policies, like that website where you could like anonymously tell on someone. I can imagine too, there's gotta be this feeling of like, is it even safe to be looking up or be learning about it? And it is you can still learn about it because you prepare it, right? Yeah, and people need your support, even if you aren't able to donate or volunteer. The more that people understand the better the conversations can be around improving it. And I would really encourage you to try to overcome that fear and anxiety and know that you still have a right to learn and educate yourself on these issues. And it will only help you feel more empowered, especially because maybe you won't help on a broader scale, but maybe your friend is going through something or someone you know, and you never know when an opportunity could come up where that education you've done will help you help someone else. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

And I really appreciate you saying that because the other thing I would tell folks to do outside of like trying to we get start, those are all the places where to start. Using the word abortion is so important. One of the things we talk about is anti-abortion folks use the word abortion more than pro-abortion advocates or even your pro-choice advocates do. And that's not good because it's stigmatizing the word when it's a healthcare procedure that is akin to like anything else. Getting a vasectomy, getting a mammogram, getting reconstructive surgery. Like those are all healthcare procedures. Abortion is just a healthcare procedure, it's not a dirty word, it's the name of a procedure, and we should be able to actually use that word without thinking it's a dirty word or whispering it or using euphemisms like reproductive health around it, right? There's a specific like there's a lot, reproductive health encompasses a lot of things. Abortion is a procedure in that, and we should be able to name it. And I think that's like another place where people can start to like help demystify

Policy Creates Confusion And Cruelty

SPEAKER_01 37:54

and destigmatize the word and the procedure itself.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Yeah, definitely. What is something you've learned from the people you've served that you think everyone could benefit from hearing?

SPEAKER_01 38:04

I think that something I've learned from the people I serve, and I've said this over and over again, but resilience is just like people don't realize how resilient they have to be until they're forced to be resilient. I see that in everyday Texans every single day. And it's a good reminder, and so it's not maybe a lesson, but it's a good reminder that when we show up, we're dealing with real humans at the other end of the line. They're navigating difficult circumstances not created by themselves. And they just truly are so happy that someone is willing to help. And so it's, you know, thinking about like just if you're not sure where to start, just offering help is enough because the second they hear from us saying, Yeah, we can help them, the joy in their voices that they're getting support is I can't even capture it. I can't figure out even how to capture it appropriately here. But it's because they're just like you and me. And that's the important thing I think folks forget. And it's something I'm often reminded by our callers is that could be me tomorrow. And they're navigating it with such resilience. And in the face of walls that are built to stop them, they're fighting it. And so I don't know if that's about a lesson I've learned as much as what I see in the callers that reach out to us and the work that we do and what our team does. It's about showing up. And I think like that's the lesson is show up, even if it's you can only give 10% show up, so that that 10% can impact someone.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

I think it speaks to how important compassion and acknowledging someone's dignity is when supporting others. Yeah. So I always end with this question: what does hope look like to you right now?

SPEAKER_01 39:53

You know, I like this question a lot because even on my Instagram, in my like bio, I have a quote from Miriam Kaba that says hope is a discipline. That is it's a discipline. I don't know if what hope looks to me is everyday Texans fighting for everyday Texans. It's about reminding yourself that this is a marathon, not a sprint. And hope is about the everyday small ones that you see. It's the everyday changes that you see. I often think about hope is not about one moment or a fleeting thing. It's showing up every day. And, you know, when I took this job and I told my parents what job it was like, my dad was like abortion, and he would whisper it, and he would say, Yeah, she does women's health care work. And I'm like, no dad, it's not women's only. We work with trans folks and stuff. And that was this when I took this job five and a half years ago. And I was like, no, I'm gonna break my dad. He's gonna say the word abortion and he's gonna say it loud today. If you ask him, some what his daughter does, she goes, Oh, she does abortion work. Like my dad says it loud and proud. And I think that's just like an example of how hope shows up, right? Hope shows up and talking about it, doing it, and just slowly working toward like, yes, I want that progress to be faster. But if that's not gonna happen, showing up every day and doing those slow things to have everyday wins.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure learning from you. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to Working Girl. If this conversation resonated with you, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone who cares about building a more just world. You can learn more about today's guests and find additional resources at each other. Until next time, stay curious, stay compassion, and keep doing the work.