Insights Unveiled - Brand Communication

Our final episode focuses on Brand Communication and how Market Research can help develop and optimize it.  We explore where / how things can go wrong, share some helpful  frameworks, and discuss the importance of early consumer involvement.  Our guest speaker is Hugo Brooks, founder of research & strategy agencies Ne:on  and Brand Dynamics. 

Transcript

Judith: 0:05

So, hello again, Market Research friends, and welcome to the very last edition of the Insights Unveiled podcast. This is our podcast that's trying to make sense of the typical business issues that get thrown at market research, and it's for anyone who wants a deeper insight into the real world of insights. So, follow us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you usually search for podcasts. So, who are we and what's this all about? Mandy.

Mandy: 0:28

Hi, I'm Mandy. I'm a client side market research manager but I've also been a marketer as well.

Judith: 0:34

And I'm Judith. I was an agency side researcher and now I write about and for the research industry and make podcasts and videos too. So Our podcast takes a really critical look at how the market research industry tackles business questions and we've taken a typical business issue in each one. We kind of want to lift the curtain on what really happens which can look very different depending on your perspective, whether you're on the client side, the agency side, whether you're a supplier, and we try and understand what kind of gets lost in translation along the way between all of those different parties and why what happens in reality isn't always the same as what's specified in the brief proposed in the tender or agreed in the contract.

Mandy: 1:15

So to give it a little bit of structure, we're following a logical arc from spotting an opportunity all the way through to creating a new product or service and finally marketing and selling them. And do check out some of our previous episodes on things such as trend hunting or market sizing. Just an important PS at this point, All of our opinions are our own and they do not necessarily reflect those of the companies we work for now or have worked for in the past. Great. Okay. So the last topic, the last topic is all about communicating those brands and services that we might've created in a business. And this episode is really going to briefly cover market research's involvement with communicating a brand or product because it's a really very broad topic and our episodes, as you know, we try and keep them short. So we're really focusing in on how market research optimizes that brand communication. So we don't cover the full ways that you can create a brand proposition or communication development, for example, and neither are we going to cover promotions and promotional effectiveness, which is another fantastic topic. Very useful, very interesting, but unfortunately no time to cover it here. There is not enough time when we're talking about market

Judith: 2:35

research. We could do this way much more, but we don't have enough time and nor do our listeners. Absolutely.

Mandy: 2:41

So the sort of things we're going to talk about here. Firstly, Judith, what's your view when it comes to communicating? I've said communicating brands and products and services. Is, is it different for the techs the tech world or business to business world, you think as well?

Judith: 2:54

Well, you know, well, that's a really good question, Mandy, because I think there was a time when it was thought to be and actually, and, and interestingly, I think Mark Ritson has had a column in Marketing Week on this just, just this week which is Stop Asking If They're Right. if this will, this approach will work in B2B, because the answer is yes, so just stop asking. And his point is, and I would absolutely concur, is that, you know, we're all just people, so when you're communicating in B2B you're still just communicating to people, and yes, there might be a panel of buyers and some, you know, more complex decision making, but actually at the end of the day, we're all the same as consumers really. And so the techniques that are used to communicate consumer brands are really starting to be used much more in, services and in tech and in business as well. And it doesn't have to be stuff being boring, you know, because you need to get stuff across to people in, in exactly the same way.

Mandy: 3:48

It's a really good point. And funnily enough, I was also thinking that, you know, when we talk about communications, things have changed so much over the past few years with regards to the media landscape. But as you say, it does still come back to people receiving communications about a brand and it comes back to us, you know, trying to put across a point about a brand or a product or service in an effective way.

Judith: 4:10

Absolutely. And I mean, yeah, like you say, the media landscape has changed so much. You know, who would have thought that something like TikTok would be a serious platform for, for brands to use, but it absolutely is. And there's no reason that, you know, that that shouldn't be the same for, for any brand really, because it's, it's a medium that you've got, you've got to meet people where they are when you're trying to communicate with them.

Mandy: 4:29

Yeah, yeah,

Judith: 4:30

So Mandy, as always, and for the last time, what's the typical business question that you get asked in the market research department?

Mandy: 4:38

So there are many types, many different types of requests to market research, but I'll give you some examples of a few that I've received in the past. So we might hear something like, I've made some new brand content. Can you test it? to see if our target consumers like it. That's quite a typical one. Quite often people have launched perhaps a new sub brand range and want to understand if it's communicating, the additional benefit that that sub brand's bringing. Another one which will be, possibly make people smile is, you know, our audience must be bored with our ad. It's been around for two years already. Can you help me test some new scripts? And, and finally the, the classic the global team has developed some new communication ideas and executions, but I don't think it's going to be applicable to our market and our consumers. They're different, you know? So please, can you help us either validate it or throw it away? So Yeah, you get a lot of questions around communications, some of which are deeper than others. Yes, and I think

Judith: 5:37

your, your last point that you just made there, can you help us either validate it or throw it away, I think that's, I think that's kind of the crux of it, isn't that?

Mandy: 5:44

Yeah, and quite often that is exactly what there's going on. The stakeholder is wanting, they're wanting to either say, yep, tick, that's fine. Get it out there. We're happy to spend millions behind it, or they're really looking for evidence to say, no, that's really not going to work for our market. We really want to create something else. And it can be very tricky for the market research department and agencies because you are. Sometimes between a rock and a hard place on this one. But

Judith: 6:09

yeah,

Mandy: 6:09

personally, I, I always feel market search can play a really valuable role in this process because rather than just ask helping the business understand if it works or not, you're quite often needing to articulate why it's important. Communication will fit with your brand and why consumers will engage with it and understand it or, or not. And it's that why that's, that's really critical.

Judith: 6:31

Exactly. And it's that why that moves you out of being sort of the tick box department, which is, which is that very, very uncomfortable place to be in. Okay. So on that note, then what, what's the best way to tackle these questions as a, as a market researcher? So

Mandy: 6:46

in short And despite the fact that it's, it's quite a scary place looking at creative research, and quite often people make out that it's different, I've always found that it's, you research it in much the same way that you would research anything else. So you're applying the same kind of quantitative or qualitative tools and, and so on. But there are two considerations. For me that are really important. So first of all, the stimulus. So as ever, the stimulus should reflect the objective of the research, but for communications, we have to think way beyond just testing scripts. There was a big epiphany for me when I realized that, just putting a script in front of a consumer in a research group.

Judith: 7:27

Not

Mandy: 7:27

the best way really to reach the objective of finding the best communications. And there are so many other things we can put in front of people to get a response from them, whether it's music or tonality or mood boards or snippets. And again, actually some of these can better reflect the new media landscape we work in as well.

Judith: 7:45

You have to be a bit cleverer. You have to think a bit more laterally, don't you? Absolutely. A bit more creatively.

Mandy: 7:51

And completely depending on where you are in that brief as well. You might not even be as far as finished scripts. You might be right at the start of looking at just the communication idea. So think really broadly about the stimulus. And then the second consideration is around methodology. Yeah, there is so much debate about validity or the robustness of different methods. My personal view is that all methods are valid as long as we accept the limitations and know that, you know, no one method is is going to do everything. So an example here is that neuro research is, has become very popular with, with telecommunications and it's absolutely fantastic because obviously it gets to that subconscious response, but it won't tell you the why. Similarly, I mentioned qualitative groups, which is what we used to do in the olden days. And are

Judith: 8:38

still done these days. And are still,

Mandy: 8:40

and are still done, are still done. They get criticized because obviously there is a lot of hot housing that can happen and they can be, you know, the most vocal person in the group. So they also

Judith: 8:51

on their

Mandy: 8:51

own probably aren't the best and only way, but as you say, they have a very, very good role to play when trying to get to the Y and if using the right stimulus alongside them. So yeah, just be really aware of the limits of the, whatever methodology you choose and be really upfront about that with you, with your stakeholders, with your business.

Judith: 9:09

And I think, you know, if we're able to get away from this idea of being sort of box ticking, then, you know, we, then we, we can be freed up from, from being sort of challenged over methodologies really, because, you know, if it's, if it's a sort of true partnership approach, then the method, everyone understands that methodologies are just tools.

Mandy: 9:28

There's the, it's what I call the, the blunt tool approach. Market research is very often accused, particularly by creative agencies as being a blunt tool. But I always say it's only a dangerous tool if you use the research to, to beat people about the head with it. And, and there are ways to really avoid that, that bad feeling you can get from using a blunt tool. Yeah, and

Judith: 9:50

again, I think it's particularly pertinent in, in this type of research as well, and particularly because there is quite often a creative agency involved as well, and there's, and it's, it's managing those relationships between three parties, and that can be, that can be very uncomfortable, and you know, the last thing you want as, as an agency is to be in the sort of the third wheel position, set up as sort of the enemy to the creative agency, which can happen if you're in this sort of box ticking position.

Mandy: 10:18

So do we have tips on how to avoid that very tricky? Creative agency, business and research agency issue that, that can arise. Judith, I know we were talking before and you, you were saying something about the, you know, the communication point that I know is really important.

Judith: 10:35

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think this is a thing that runs through all of our podcasts and basically all of research really is, you know, the earlier you can get involved the better. the more you can bring everybody on board together, it's a collaborative exercise you know, the more you can keep everybody up to date throughout the project, so that you, the scope doesn't creep and you know, it really does feel like it's a team brought in to achieve something rather than a sort of adversarial set of, set of people, you know, you don't want to be marking the, the creative agency's home, right, that's not a good position to be in.

Mandy: 11:10

They, they, you know, they can be scathing and sometimes it is really for good reason if that communication has not been, has not been right with them. Wow. Right. Yeah. So,

Judith: 11:17

Mandy, do you, do you have like practical tips to how to, how to avoid that?

Mandy: 11:21

Yeah, so I, I have a couple actually. So my first one is have in place a really clear communication framework. So the by framework I mean the way you. think about communication to avoid the kind of beauty contest, like it or don't like it type approach to research. So I'll give you an example from one that I was taught years and years ago at Unilever, and that was called the ABC approach.

Judith: 11:46

And

Mandy: 11:47

ABC stood for attention, branding, and communication. So when you're going in to test your, your piece of communication, you're actually looking for whether it is going to grab attention. Is it well branded and is it communicating the message you need? And each of those objectives needs to be right in order for that communication to, to be successful in the future. And, and hence you kind of, you're using the consumer response to explore each of those elements rather than the. Do I like it? Do I not like it? Approach. Because obviously, you know, an ad can be thoroughly liked, but if it's not communicating what the brand needs to communicate, then obviously it's not going to work. So it really does make it much more objective way of, of understanding that, that communications potential. Yeah, that would be my first tip.

Judith: 12:35

And I think it's really important to get away from that like, don't like, isn't it? Because especially, you know, if you're getting that reaction from a stakeholder higher up as well, well, I just don't like it, you know, that that can can kill, can kill something very valid. And, it's really important to move it away from that.

Mandy: 12:51

And then my second tip would be, and this gets probably a bit more complicated in my head certainly anyway, but it's just being really clear about what you are researching, what you're trying to understand. So for example, be really clear about separating a brand proposition, if you like, from a communication idea, from a communication execution. So I was thinking just for this, we recorded this, what, what do I mean by those three terms? And I've used an example of Lidl which is a, which is a brand that I do not know particularly well, but I had a go at thinking, well, what, what does Lidl stand for? So if if I was thinking about what, what is the brand proposition, I'd be thinking about, well, what does the brand Lidl stand for? So it probably stands in this case for outstanding value. Exactly. That's the heart of the brand. But if I was trying to think of the communication idea, the communication idea is something that communicates what the brand stands for in a really relevant and impactful way. So for Lidl, it might be to do with how much you get for your money. So it might be about price and quality combined. So, you know, price without compromise could be the communication idea. I know that their strap line is something like. Big on something little on price, for example. So it's just a really powerful way to put across what their brand is about. But then when you come to the execution, if you're looking at what is the communication executions, then those are really the different little stories. that brings that brand communication idea to life. So, for example, I looked at some of their ads and there was a Christmas one about a, a raccoon that's running around bringing Christmas presents to people, which is an odd idea, but essentially the, the raccoon is going the extra mile to deliver a toy in this case to, to a boy. So it's kind of, again, it's a, it's a little story that's really bringing to life that idea of, quality without compromise. So I hope that example works for, for people listening. It's it's, it's not an easy it's not an easy construct to get our heads around, but it is, as I say, that it's important because it comes down to what are you researching when you're going into research and being really clear on that. And as you say, Judith, really reassuring an agency and your stakeholders, that that's what we're looking for. We're not, we're not worried about the execution and how that story is coming to life. We're really worried about the bigger idea. Or the flip of that, you know, actually we've got the big idea. We're not questioning that. We're just looking at how these different executions are going to bring that idea to life in the best way. Being able to focus on those things really helps that communication. It really helps reassure people across. Yeah, I

Judith: 15:25

think that's really important. Brilliant. That's really helpful. Should we go to our guest?

Mandy: 15:29

Yes, indeed. We have our guest Hugo. So let's, let's go and speak to him.

Judith: 15:33

Okay, so welcome to Hugo Brooks. Thank you so much for joining us. I really, really appreciate it. I'm looking forward to talking to you. Can I start by just asking you to tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Hugo: 15:44

Sure, so I'm, I'm Hugo Brooks. I'm CEO of a company called Neon that used to be called Brand Dynamics. We fairly recently rebranded and might touch in on why that's kind of relevant to some of the things we're going to be talking about in a bit. But yes, so I've been CEO of this company for for the company's existed for about 15 years, I think. And we've really seen the organization go through many, many changes, but what's different, I think, and relevant is that we actually, I'm not actually an insight person by, by background. I'm actually a brand, a creative and a brand development person by background and came into the area of insight through. that a desire to get better and clearer and more useful consumer information in the work that I was doing. And then we've ended up being actually, you know, insight is probably 80 percent of what, of what we do in brand consulting, the other 20. So my perspective has, has always got that mix of kind of both, both sides, particularly the creative side and the, and the consumer insight side.

Judith: 16:51

So, oh, brilliant. Okay. Well, thank you for that. Can you also now share with us a piece of brand communication that you, well, one that you've worked on or not really, but, but something that you find interesting and exciting.

Hugo: 17:03

So, yes, yeah, yes, I happily share one. So, the one, the one I thought I would talk about is Gillette and the best a man can get. As we know that the best a man can get is a, is a, you know, an anthemic piece of advertising that's existed for many, many years, kind of ran into some difficulties because it began to look quite old fashioned. So they stepped away from it, stepped away into a bit of a void, found they haven't really got anything to step into, then found the way to come back into it, which was, was really some very. challenging and controversial advertising, which if you haven't seen you, everybody should look up. It was done in 2020, I think, and, and ran for a while after that in the U. S. And the, and the, the, the theme of the advertising was, was really tackling toxic masculinity. So actually tackling their own story, if you like, or trying to correct the story of what a best a man can get might mean, and then actually begin to talk about, you know, Maybe it's about the best a man can be rather than the best a man can get. And this idea that actually it's men's responsibility to kind of look after each other to make sure that they, the, the unfortunate things around masculinities are stopped. The important thing about it, whether you like it or agree with it or not, Disagree with it or whatever you feel about it. The really important thing about it is that what the brand is doing is it's inserting itself into the current narrative. And, for me, I, you know, I could choose an ad that I like. There's all sorts of ads I like, or I think are really good. But what it's a great example of love it or hate it. It is finding a way to run with the current narrative and take a position. In the in in that process that people can choose whether they want to agree with or not agree with and clearly it comes from a place of real insight around what is going on for men and actually having worked in this sector where I know is that as important as what as what's going on for men is actually is what's going on for women. men's perception of women's perception of them. So it's a great example of where you really have to unpick this from a human perspective in great detail in order to navigate it. But if you do that, you then got the power to insert yourself into a narrative, which is very current and very important.

Judith: 19:31

Yeah. That's a absolutely brilliant example. And, and so interesting. So, okay, let's, let's think now about the, the process of market research.'cause that's really what this podcast is all about. What about. the brief and the client in, in communications research. Where, where are the gaps and where can things go wrong?

Hugo: 19:51

So I think, in, in, in really simple terms, if I could answer that in one sentence, which is, get the research and insight people involved too late. I, I could kind of leave it there, but, but, but, but, but I think that's, that, that's the first thing. I think we have to move from a place where research and insight is seen as a, as a testing mechanism for communication to, to actually, it's a partnership in the development of communication. So if you, like, you've got the client group bringing, Commercial and strategic objectives. You've got you've got the creative agency bringing creativity and media objectives, but there's somebody missing from the room in that conversation, which is the consumer. And it harks back to a very old fashioned idea of we will go and develop our our brand and our communication, then we'll tell the consumer and they'll take it or not take it, they'll like it or lump it because we know best. And actually it's still, there's still that runs through both clients and creative agencies thinking is we know best. And actually it, it's, it, the more you do that, the more it becomes. a random process to whether you'll be successful or not. And you may be, you know, some great adverts that were born that way. But they're more by luck than, than judgment. I think the key to success in communication is great insight and great creativity. Loads of other stuff around that. But you put those two things together and you've got a really powerful combination. And that's always been behind some of the greatest. Pieces of communication And to do that, you need to have insight at the beginning of the process. And actually, you're trying more than ever today, you're trying to create something that is, that is about research. authenticity and believability for the consumer. And if you do that without even involving them in the process, you, you kind of, it's not surprising that it's, it becomes a slightly random process as to whether you're going to be successful or not.

Judith: 22:03

Yes. I, I think that's really interesting. Do, do you think that that we know best attitude from the creatives and the clients sometimes extends not just to the consumer, but also to the agency insights people as well? That they're seen as more of a, a sort of a, a, a conduit for a tick box, tick box exercise rather than a, a real, you know, a, an add to the value of the project? I, I think worse than that actually, I, I, I, I think sometimes, that the, the research agency is sometimes seen as the enemy. And I, you know, none of us really want to say that, but, but I think particularly, and this absolutely isn't so with all clients, but if, but I would say some of the client organizations or advertising agencies that are slightly more stuck in the past have this idea that actually You know, these people are going to turn up and just criticize what we do and and therefore we've got to do our best to get past this stage, you know,

Hugo: 23:01

it's, it's a hurdle. Whereas that just misses out on a massive opportunity to have real, you know, really collaborative, work and we, you know, we, and I'm sure a lot of other agencies really work hard at collaboration with both the client and the creative agency so that they feel we're part of a team. We're just, we're just there to enable us all to do better, By bringing in the voice of the person that's going to buy the product.

Judith: 23:29

Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. And so then just to finish off what would be your advice? Do you have any advice for listeners about developing successful communications?

Hugo: 23:41

for me, I think the, the, the first thing is that is the, is that communication is an absolutely essential part of the brand experience and. We need to move away from the idea of it as being a sort of separate bubble that I've got, you know, all of these other things going on over here. And then I go and do some advertising you know, that, that, that's, that's the, the, the tectonic plates have changed on that some time ago, if only because of the change in the media landscape. But actually because I think people are now really coming to realize that there is something called a total brand experience of which the communication is a vital part wherever and however it happens. So I think the idea that communications is a completely separate thing is something that's really useful to let go of.

Judith: 24:33

yeah. And that really is where market research and insight should be. That's, that's the heart of what it should be about, really making that connection.

Hugo: 24:42

You really can't do that unless you have done the work to, to understand who the consumer is, where they are. what they need, what they want to hear, what they don't want to heaR. Brilliant.

Judith: 24:54

That's amazing advice. Thank you so much.

Mandy: 25:00

Great. Thanks, Judith. That was such an interesting interview to listen to with yourself and Hugo. In summing up, I think the thing that really came out for me was that the idea that brands communicate continuously in all their forms, it's not something separate. So I thought, it's a really good idea to keep consumer understanding. relevant and fresh all the time and to really keep that at the forefront of your creative and your media agency's minds and your stakeholders minds. It's not something you just come to once every blue moon, you know, you've, it's a good way of kind of keeping them up to speed. I think it also has, would have the added benefit of really forging stronger relationships with them as well. If you're able to keep coming to that agency with new and fresh insights or, or examples you've seen of those insights, that's really going to be stimulating and motivating to them. And, and, you know, you'll, you'll talk more often, you'll speak more often, which is

Judith: 25:55

going to be a good thing as well. Yeah, like everything, us researchers are the, the the conduit to the consumer and that's, that's absolutely invaluable for everybody involved. So for the, for the brand and any agencies along the way, so it's an important job that we take.

Mandy: 26:10

Indeed, So, as you just said at the start, this is our final episode in our series of Insights Unveiled. And looking back, I wondered if there was sort of one or two things that is a, is a thread that pulls through all the episodes. Judith, what are your thoughts? What are really Yeah,

Judith: 26:28

absolutely. Well, first of all, Mandy, it's been so much fun. It's been so much fun to do, hasn't it? And I think we've, we've had, we've had an absolute ball putting these together and we hope you have enjoyed listening to them too. In terms of what's come out of them, well, I think I've been thinking about it and I think for me it's always nice to put a framework around something and for me it's the three C's and that's what's really come out of all of these and I think the first C is communications. You know, we set out to look at where things can go wrong between agencies and clients and suppliers. And the answer to stop things getting lost in translation is, is of course communication. You know, you need to, you need to be. Talking from the very, very beginning of a project all the way through and then afterwards as well, you need to really build relationships, you know, we, we know all of this, but it, it tends to get lost in the day to day, agencies are brought in at the last minute to validate something rather than at the beginning to help make it better. And I think that's, that's you know, where things can start to go wrong. I think the second C for me is confidence. And I think as an industry we, we need to build up our confidence a little bit more because it's only when you've got the confidence to say, look, I need to be in at the beginning of this conversation, that you will start then being able to have those really good communications and you will end up being a partner. And what should give us confidence? Well, it's. It's our third C, which is the consumer. You know, we absolutely are the people who can help brands understand who their consumers are. And we all know it, we all know that brands are supposed to be very consumer centric. They can't do that without market research. They can't do that without us. So we really have got something to say and something really, really valuable to deliver, whether you're an agency side or client side, you know, we, we We are, we have this role and we should feel very confident to, to, you know, stand up there and you know, get the, the seat at the table that we say that we want and, and then we'll be able to have those communications and enter into real partnerships and, you know, the work will be better all around. So I think, I think that would be, be it for me really. The three C's communications, confidence, and consumer. What about you, Mandy? What do you take from our little series that we've done?

Mandy: 28:35

That's a wonderful sum up. Well, I as ever come back to the objective of the series. So for me, it was about trying to understand the common business questions that are asked and how market research can really help the business understand them. And the big thing for me was the nail the brief. So I think that's something that's come through all the episodes. The importance of really investing time when you write a market research brief and really think about what will the market research agency pick up from that brief. Put yourself in their shoes. Is there enough in there? Will they really understand it? Make sure there's real clarity on the definitions that you're using and real clarity on the scope. And I'm mindful of something that Simon brought up in episode three, for when he talked about change control and he said, you know, if you have the brief, but if it changes really be in charge of that change, control that change, make sure that everybody knows that the brief has changed. So for me, that was a very active way of managing the brief and making sure everyone is, is really clear. Yeah, big tip.

Judith: 29:42

I think that's an absolutely brilliant point to pick up on as well because you know, perhaps the fourth C should be control really. Ah, yeah, control change, yeah. Yeah, absolutely, because I think that, you know, when things go wrong, it's when there's misunderstanding, it's when there's mission creep, it's when there's scope creep. So, you know, hopefully having listened to all our podcasts, you'll be a bit more better equipped to manage change in your own organizations and to be the great market researcher we know you can all be. I hope so too.

Mandy: 30:11

Fantastic. Well, it only remains to say thanks to all the guests that we've had on the series and thank you.

Judith: 30:18

Yeah. Thank you, Mandy as well. And thank you to all our listeners. We're signing out. Bye bye!