Why Awareness Isn’t Enough: Turning Therapy Insights Into Real Change

We often expect transformation to come from big breakthroughs, but as Hero and Psychotherapist Jen Baumgold explains, lasting change usually begins with the smallest shifts in day-to-day living. 

In this episode, Jen and Chandler talk through the daily work of integration by paying attention to the body, pausing before reacting, experimenting with new behaviors, and gently challenging long-held patterns. Jen shares accessible tools for regulating the nervous system, practicing boundaries, and rebuilding trust with yourself one decision at a time. 

What You Will Learn

• [00:07:31] Why awareness alone rarely creates change, and what gets in the way of turning insight into action
• [00:09:16] How letting go of a long-held belief (like stepping off the scale) can reconnect you to bodily knowing
• [00:14:48] The power of permission and small steps — why tiny experiments are often more sustainable than big overhauls
• [00:17:30] How to spot a pattern’s triggers and locate the sensation in your body so you can begin to work with it
• [00:21:13] Practical micro-habits for interrupting automatic reactions, like pausing before answering or waiting on emails
• [00:29:39] How EMDR supports integration by allowing you to access and reprocess material from a calmer, safer state
• [00:34:43] A simple nervous-system tool: using saliva or a small oral action to cue parasympathetic (“rest and digest”) activation
• [00:36:51] Why rebuilding self-trust — through boundaries, small decisions, and consistent practice — is core to lasting change

Let’s Connect!
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Cait DeMello

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Chandler Stroud

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Mixing and editing provided by Next Day Podcast.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Chandler Stroud: Hey guys, it's Chandler and welcome to The Healing Heroes. I promise you.

[00:00:08] I'm Chandler Stroud, an executive wife and busy mom of two who after years of living with anxiety. Health struggles and an unshakeable feeling like I should be happier, made a profound discovery that changed everything. Join me on a journey where unexpected paths lead to healing and more happiness. On this show, we will explore unconventional ways to unlock more joy in your own life with the help of my very own healers.

[00:00:40] And trusted advisors, the Healing Heroes.

[00:00:47] Hey everyone. Welcome back to the show. Thank you for tuning in. I am your host, Chandler, and today I'm so happy you're here because Hero and psychotherapist, Jen Baum Gold is back. And today we're talking about what happens after we become aware of our patterns, how to actually. Integrate, change into your day to day, embody new ways of being, and move from just understanding those patterns to really transforming in how you live and behave, and have relationships with your loved ones.

[00:01:24] I used to think that breakthroughs happened in the therapy sessions, and sometimes they do. I've had that experience myself with Jen, but somewhere along the way I realized that often the real progress or change happens in the car ride home or when you're quietly cooking dinner in your kitchen. Or in that moment when your kid triggers something old and you suddenly have a choice that you didn't realize that you had before.

[00:01:55] In that moment, Jen and I are talking about that part, the living, breathing practice of applying what you learn in therapy to the actual messiness of your life. And I am living this right now. It is so relevant for this stage of my healing journey. I've done so much great work with Jen, but I will say there is one limiting belief and tendency behavior that I have exhibited and been trying to let go of in our therapy sessions that I've felt really stuck in.

[00:02:30] One of the limiting beliefs that I transparently have been working through for some time is that. My worth is defined by how much I weigh. My weight has been a problem my whole life. If you listen to the first season of this show, I talk about that in the intro to a couple different episodes. It's something I've always struggled with and have overcome, and then struggled and then overcome, and then struggled and.

[00:02:55] It's just one of those beliefs. I've really had a hard time changing in talk therapy and even doing some EMDR, which we have dabbled in from time to time. And Jen looked at me one day back in early September and she was like, what if you just stopped weighing yourself? I was like, well then I wouldn't know how much I'd weighed and that would be terrifying.

[00:03:18] And then I can't decide what to eat for the day or what I'm doing wrong. And there were so many thoughts that were running through my head and she was like, so what? Like what's the worst that can happen? Like weigh yourself in a week, two weeks, but like try going a few days. And this felt so. Monumental to me because I have been weighing myself every day of my life since I was maybe 13 or 14 years old, if I'm being honest.

[00:03:44] So this was a very scary change, but I am proud to share that it is now, we're mid-November and I have not weighed myself one time since that session in early September. And here's what I'll tell you. My clothes still fit. All the clothes that I was wearing prior to that session still fit. I feel really strong because I'm listening to my body when I work out.

[00:04:06] I'm not punishing myself. I'm lifting when I know I wanna feel strong. I'm walking when I wanna feel peace, or doing yoga when I want a good sweat. And. It's really changed so much in my life. I feel like I needed that shift day to day to just wake me up out of this pattern of stepping on a scale and letting a number dictate my worth for the day.

[00:04:32] And I know how hard that is to do, especially for women, but it has really bled into other areas of my life. And I have started questioning like who says. Skinny is more valuable. Who says going blonde is the way to be? Who says, getting Botox and trying to make yourself look younger makes you more lovable or worthy?

[00:04:56] And it's scary to challenge these things that we just accept as societal norms, but it's in these sessions that we really wake up to who we truly are inside the beliefs that we want to own or disown. That were maybe inherited or learned over a long period of time, and when you really come back to what you truly believe, it can be a really powerful change in your day to day.

[00:05:25] So many women are aware of their wounds, but are still stuck living in them. Or conversely, you may not be even consciously aware of the experiences that you had that are still impacting how you show up with your kids, your husband, how you manage. Dress show up in relationships and more. So today I am really excited to dive deep into this topic with hero Jen.

[00:05:51] But before we get started, for our new listeners joining us today, let me just quickly introduce her for anyone new here. She's a licensed clinical social worker and psychotherapist specializing in the treatment of trauma. Jen is certified in EMDR and began her career in the New York City Fire Department Counseling Service unit.

[00:06:12] Where she worked until 2016. During her time there, she provided crucial mental health support to FDNY members and their families. In addition to her private practice, Jen is an active member of the Fairfield County Trauma Response Team. A volunteer alliance of mental health professionals committed to aiding first responders and the local community in healing trauma.

[00:06:36] Tragedy and stress. Jen, it is so great to have you back today. Thank you for being here. 

[00:06:42] Jen Baumgold: I'm so happy to be back, Chandler. Thanks for having me. 

[00:06:45] Chandler Stroud: Anytime. Love having you here. And I know we've talked about so many other topics in the past, psychotherapy more holistically, EMDR, resourcing, limiting beliefs.

[00:06:57] And so today I'm so excited to talk about how we can take what we learn in therapy and really integrate it into our day-to-day in a way that changes how we show up, changes our behaviors. So I'm really excited for this conversation. Me too. So to kick us off, Jen, I think a lot of women listening are very self-aware.

[00:07:18] They read the books, they go to therapy, they can name their trauma patterns even. Why does awareness often not translate into change for so many women? 

[00:07:31] Jen Baumgold: I mean, I think awareness is such an important part of our journeys of therapy and, you know, just becoming self-aware, but it's a first step, right? So if you think about it, we all know what we should do.

[00:07:44] You know, if you take something like you know, you know you shouldn't smoke, right? You shouldn't smoke cigarettes. It's bad for you. You still do that. It's not because you don't know that you shouldn't be doing it. It's, you know that we can have a disconnect between knowing and feeling and doing, and I think a lot of times we can have this awareness and have an idea of what we, you know, what's going on, what the pattern is.

[00:08:09] But aren't something's blocking us from changing it. Mm. And something's blocking us from accessing that change. And I think part of it is figuring out what that is and then how to work around it. When you just talked about this, you know, sort of blocking belief about your own weight and you were saying, well, I cannot weigh myself, like that was a belief that you had to do that in order to.

[00:08:29] Maintain some sense of worthiness, but letting go of that belief, I think, allows you to tap into your body, right? Because one of the conversations we had around that was, okay, like the weight is a measurement, it's an external thing. You know, it's, it's a, it's numbers on a scale, but what happens if, you know, you just pay attention to how you feel in your body.

[00:08:50] I feel strong, I feel powerful. I feel, you know, attractive. Whatever. You know, it might be that you're feeling in your body. Letting go of that behavior, of that belief allowed you to access that. And I think just having awareness of that belief wouldn't have been the same thing. You had to kind of shed it and that that kind of removed that obstacle from the beha to allow for the behavior change.

[00:09:16] Chandler Stroud: Thank you for saying that. I think that was so articulate and well said. That's exactly right. It was like I was aware of the belief and I knew I didn't want to make it mine anymore, but I didn't know how to change it. And I think that simple conversation of just taking a small step and. Trying to remove myself from that conversation in a way was like so helpful in reconnecting me with me again.

[00:09:46] And to your point, really going inward to hear like, how did I physically feel about that? Yeah, it was really, it was really helpful to. Consciously know that it existed, but then take a baby step towards changing it in my day to day, and that sort of had this ripple effect that helped me stick with it and get more in tune with my body, as you're saying, and listen more frequently and more deeply to what I need in any given situation.

[00:10:18] From your perspective, Jen, what's the biggest trap or misconception around insights and what we might learn in a therapy session? Why do we often confuse knowledge with transformation, in your opinion? 

[00:10:31] Jen Baumgold: Well, again, I don't wanna underestimate the importance of insight. You know? I think that's something that.

[00:10:36] It takes work to get to. And it's, it's not just, you just don't arrive at the insight. I think that there's a lot of work that goes into hard work, hard emotional work to uncovering these patterns, to having that insight. But that being said, I think it can feel like the solution once you discover the pattern.

[00:10:53] 'cause it is so. Like, it's like a eureka moment, right? Like, oh my God, that's right. I do do that. You know, oh my God, I never thought about it that way. That makes so much sense. Or it's relieving in a way, it, it's feeling seen, it's being heard. It's, it's, oh wait, no, this is really happening and this is why I do this.

[00:11:10] And we love figuring things out. It's like, you know, a puzzle of ourselves. So there is a re inherent reward in insight and awareness, and I think. It's taking that next step again, just because we know something, it's like, okay, well now what do we do? So knowing that, that is just the first step, and, and sometimes I think most people who, you know, really work in therapy recognize that they get to a point, they're like, okay, I know this.

[00:11:37] Now what? Sometimes people might say, yeah, no, this is what it is. I'm accepting of it. I can't change it. And. I'm not gonna do anything more with it, but it's just, again, a first step towards, you know, making the changes that you want in your life. 

[00:11:54] Chandler Stroud: That makes sense. I think, I mean, we always say on the show too, like healing starts with the awareness.

[00:11:59] You can't go and address what you don't know is there. Exactly. Or even a pattern or an issue. So I, I agree with your comment about not downplaying awareness. Mm-hmm. I think that is like the first most important step. But you know, in my experience, as you and I talked together, like the awareness was there, it was like, yeah, I know this is a problem for me.

[00:12:21] I just don't know how to break the chain, right? Like, how do I free myself from this belief system that I don't wanna own? I don't wanna make it mine. And I thought it was so brilliant when you were just like, so. Maybe it's almost like go take a step back, like actually become less aware of what's happening there.

[00:12:41] S and like that's free yourself from the awareness of it for a little bit. And by not stepping on a scale and knowing that number, and the first few days I'd, I didn't even say the first week or two were really hard and I thought about you. I'm like, well, she said I could weigh myself out of after a week or two, but.

[00:12:58] No, it just became so freeing to not know the number. I like noticed how I felt different after a few days. It was like I wasn't marinating on it. I wasn't like punishing myself or judging myself throughout the day because of this thing that I, this piece of information I had decidedly collected for myself was dictating how happy I was throughout the day, and I don't even think I realized the power it had over my mood until I removed it entirely.

[00:13:27] So I think it was so simple and maybe so obvious to some, but so transformational for me to have you suggest like, here, maybe try integrating it this way in your day-to-day. And it worked. 

[00:13:43] Jen Baumgold: And I think there's, you know, there's a couple different things about that too. One is so much of the work that you've done up until this point, I could have made that suggestion a couple years ago, and you had been like, you're crazy.

[00:13:51] I'm never doing that fair. And, you know, or done it, you know, to please me there. It, it could have been anything. Right? I think that you have such an awareness, and I do remember that conversation when I said, well, well, how do you feel in your body? You know, or something to that effect. And you, and you're like, well, yeah, of course, because.

[00:14:10] I know that I'm supposed to be connecting with what I feel and this number is preventing me from doing that, and I think it was kind of twofold of the relief and being able to say, okay, this is. I like, one of my goals is to really connect to myself and my body and my self trust and this number's, you know, kind of preventing me from doing that.

[00:14:30] And I think the other thing is that it was small, right? It was manageable and it was like, just don't go a few days. And it's wonderful that it's been, you know, almost three months. But I think it's really kind of allowing yourself the permission to just do it in small steps. 

[00:14:48] Chandler Stroud: I think that's exactly right.

[00:14:50] Permission to do it in small steps. Like a lot of the women listening in and I know it was my experience. We love to people please. Right? Like that's something that might be an insight you hear in therapy. And then you have to go integrate, not people pleasing in your day-to-day. And I heard something the other day that was like, you're so good at people pleasing, try people pleasing yourself.

[00:15:10] And I was like. Ooh, I like that. I can do that. I know how to people please, like make myself happy all day. Yeah. And I really have tried to wake up with that mentality every day for the last several weeks, even months, like, okay. If I'm really gonna make myself happy, I know I want to do 10 minutes of yoga because of how I feel on the other side.

[00:15:31] Today I feel like having a bigger breakfast, I'm gonna do that because that's gonna make me happy. Or I just wanna go for a walk. I don't wanna kill myself on the Peloton bike, or I wanna feel strong, so I'm gonna lift even though I just lifted. Yesterday or you know, whatever it might be. Like, I really am tuning into that feeling for the first time from the lens of how do I love myself a little harder today and making that part of my day-to-day job.

[00:15:55] So I just wanted to share that. 'cause I thought that was really cool. And it's touching on, I think what you're saying, which is like really reconnecting and listening to yourself in a way. Allows you to, without even knowing it, just like love yourself a little bit better. Right? 

[00:16:11] Jen Baumgold: And we have such a hard time loving ourselves.

[00:16:14] You know, I think that's something that comes up in loving kindness. Meditation is extending love to your, or self-compassion meditation, extending love to yourself as if you were extending it to somebody else. And we can easily do that. We can easily, I, I, a lot of times clients are struggling with self-criticism and I, I would say, would you say something that harsh about.

[00:16:33] Your child and they would say, no, of course not. Would you say it about your friend? No. I would never say that about another person. Then why are you saying it about yourself? You're a person who deserves the same response, the same love, and the same worthiness that the other people you're talking about do.

[00:16:49] There's no difference between you and your child and you know, your like friend and your teacher, whatever. So I think, you know, I love that idea of. Being able to take that element of people pleasing and saying, okay, when I have this tendency, let me turn it inward to me. 

[00:17:05] Chandler Stroud: Ladies who are listening, go.

[00:17:06] People please yourself today.

[00:17:11] Go love yourselves. Jen, once someone becomes aware of a core wound or trauma pattern, like what's the next step? 

[00:17:19] Jen Baumgold: I think it's going deeper. You know, it's starting to identify where that pattern is triggered. What are the circumstances that generally seem to bring it up? And I think, you know, recognizing it in your body when that happens.

[00:17:30] Okay, now I'm people pleasing. Where do I feel that in my body? What? What's the sensation? Am I feeling like a tingling? Am I feeling tense? Do I feel it in my heart? Is it a pit of the stomach? 'cause I know I'm not doing something that really serves me, but is really for the purpose of people pleasing. So really getting curious around that.

[00:17:48] And once you can begin to. Create, you know, deeper awareness around when it's happening, where it's what emotions and where it is in your body. You can begin to really work on it, not just from like a cognitive, I have this belief or I have this pattern, but from an integrated like feeling emotional body perspective, 

[00:18:09] Chandler Stroud: is there a common, I see this and I'm aware of this, but I can't stop doing it yet.

[00:18:14] Phase, how do we kind of normalize this part of healing? 

[00:18:19] Jen Baumgold: Yeah. I mean, I think that's like a lot of what we were talking about in, in terms of awareness that we're, you know, I see this pattern, I know it's happening. I'm helpless against it, you know, I can, I see it in the moment. I'm screaming at my kids. It doesn't feel good, but yet I'm powerless over it.

[00:18:39] I think that is a very normal part of gaining awareness, and I would approach that with, you know, self-compassion, empathy around, okay, I'm, this is part of the work and I'm trying to change it, not giving up because it feels unchangeable at the time. 

[00:18:57] Chandler Stroud: I think that's really important. Really important. Oh, for sure.

[00:19:00] Yeah. Because like anything else, it's a muscle. You build it. Mm-hmm. Yes. Right. Just because you become aware of it. You can't just like, Ugh, now I'm strong with it. Right, right. It takes a lot of practice to first become so aware of it, that you recognize it consistently and regularly, and then. In the, like actions you take to change it, it doesn't change dramatically overnight.

[00:19:24] No. It's like you grow into that change by practicing it over and over and over. 

[00:19:28] Jen Baumgold: Right? It takes, takes dedication, practice, working, you know repetition. Around it. And again, like doing that from a place of self-compassion and empathy, self empathy, that's like, okay, this is, you know, making small changes towards this.

[00:19:45] And these patterns have been with us for most of us our entire lives, right? And they were built in the name of survival. I mean, think about people pleasing. Why do we people please, well, somewhere, somehow that kept us safe. You know, if we were people pleasing and we did everything right and, you know, sacrificed our own self needs.

[00:20:03] Maybe our parents wouldn't get mad at us. Our, you know, our violent or abusive parents wouldn't get mad at us. They develop in the name of survival and they've been with us for so long. So undoing them can be terrifying for most people. Yeah, and that's why I think the small suggestions, the small, like micro changes are so important because they're changing the neurobiology, they're changing the neuro pathways, but in very small ways that don't feel overwhelming to the nervous, the nervous system.

[00:20:29] Chandler Stroud: I love that. And I think in my example, someone might interpret not weighing yourself for three or four days to be a big first step for those like me who were doing it every day, and like you said, because I had done the work for a couple years with you, I was more readily in the camp of like, okay, let's give this a shot.

[00:20:47] And now I've taken it to the next level by not doing it for like 12 weeks. But for someone listening who's. Hearing your advice and saying, okay, well what does that look like in situation? Can you give a couple examples of what like a baby step integration might look like? 

[00:21:08] Jen Baumgold: Yeah, no, I think if you have identified, you know, we'll keep going with the people pleasing pattern, right?

[00:21:13] And you've identified this as it, it starts with, okay, maybe I. You know, say yes immediately to things and I don't think about them. So it's taking a pause and you know, really kind of. Waiting for a few seconds before you immediately jump to say something and to, and to like kind of break that automatic pattern.

[00:21:33] So these, these patterns are so, you know, ingrained in us and so subconscious that they're, they're automatic. You become like, alright, yes, of course I'll do that. Or, you know, you extend yourself in these ways. And so it's recognizing that and you know, even if you to say to yourself, I'm, I'm people pleasing now or now is when I would people please.

[00:21:49] So that's helping to sort of integrate the cognitive piece of it by naming it. Allowing you to feel it and name it at the same time, which then allows you to cut your nervous system to kind of activate that or to get out of your nervous system, right? To get outta the fight or flight response and into the executive function part of your brain that's like, do I really wanna do this?

[00:22:10] I mean, like, I don't know. It's a big commitment and why am I doing it? Just to like, make this person happy, so. I think a pause can be incredibly powerful. Changing a small behavior. You know, maybe you respond to emails immediately because you're afraid somebody's gonna be mad at you. So taking, you know.

[00:22:28] I, I kind of look at it as like, you can take a day, 24 hours maybe, maybe that feels like too much. Maybe take, you know, a half an hour before you respond to an email. Giving yourself that permission to go at your pace and not being controlled by others. But again, they don't have to be monumental shifts, right?

[00:22:43] You know, it was not weighing yourself for a few days or not weighing yourself for a day, not responding immediately. Pausing for 10 seconds. It doesn't mean that you have to say no, it just means. Pausing between the question and the answer. Yeah, 

[00:22:59] Chandler Stroud: take a breath, right? Yeah. Before you answer, I think, I love that you're saying this because it really does exist on a spectrum.

[00:23:06] What feels like a baby step for you might feel like a very different baby step for someone else. So just kind of know yourself well enough to decide if you need just 30 minutes to wait to answer that email. If that's just like. The most terrifying, painful thing. Or if you can wait a full day, I say stretch yourself, like see if you can get really uncomfortable with it because you might be surprised at what happens.

[00:23:31] I think that's great advice. 

[00:23:32] Jen Baumgold: You know, start with 60 seconds, you know, wait a minute, and if that feels like the perfect example of what you did, just start with a day and that's like, yeah, I can do this. Oh, you know, and then it keeps going. It's like, well, I don't actually even really miss this. 

[00:23:45] Chandler Stroud: No, I really don't.

[00:23:46] I'm not gonna lie, guys. Friday night, pizza night got a whole lot more fun without a scale on Saturday mornings. That's all I'll say. I can imagine. Can you give another example, Jen, of perfectionism? Like if someone is a perfectionist, how would this maybe an example of how that might apply The baby step rule.

[00:24:06] Jen Baumgold: That's a good one. So when I think of perfectionism, I think of people who are focused on everything being in order and perfect. And so sometimes that leads to like not turning a paper in on time because it's not perfect if you're a student or you know, not having people over because you know your house doesn't look the way it should.

[00:24:24] So those might be. Bigger examples. I think a small example of perfectionism is, you know, wearing mismatched socks or like, you know, wearing your hair in a way that you don't think it looks perfect or, you know, going out of the house without makeup. And those are all sort of, you know physical examples, but I think it, you know, I think of, I, I really enjoy running.

[00:24:44] I haven't been as much lately, but I would not run if I couldn't run three miles. And so that was just, you know, if you look at that logic, it doesn't make any sense. Like you're not doing something you like because you can't do it the way you wanna do it. So, you know. As I got older, I started to say, okay, you know, if I just run a mile, that's better than nothing.

[00:25:03] If I run half a mile, if I run to the mailbox and back, like that's more than nothing. So letting go of these, it has to be a certain way. Things even on small levels, you know, doing things out of order, not doing the dishes. I, I've had clients who have, I've actually said, okay, your, your job is to not do the dishes tonight.

[00:25:21] Like, you have to leave them, you have to leave them till the next day. Good one. And how does that feel? You know, and it's getting comfortable in that uncomfortability. Okay. Like, I'm imperfect. How does this feel? 

[00:25:34] Chandler Stroud: Great. Those are great examples. I mean, I think lots for our listeners to tap into and try for themselves if they're game.

[00:25:42] So you often teach, the body holds onto patterns long after the mind notices them what's somatic or of the body. Clues should women look for that? Maybe show this is a trauma pattern, not just a personality trait of mine. Like are there ways for our listeners to self-identify what might be a trauma pattern versus just who they are or like part of how they behave?

[00:26:08] Jen Baumgold: Yeah, that's such a good question and I think this is where it can also get tricky because we have to have some level of self-awareness. Our body to know that because when it's a trauma response, it feels like it doesn't really fit the situation. You know, and I, I wanna say that in a way that isn't going to make people think that they're overreacting, but I think that most people I work with have some sort of knowledge that they're reacting to something that feels outsized to the given situation.

[00:26:38] So, you know, your boss asks you to do something. I think we actually went through something like this too, right? Yes. And your boss asks you to do something and you're like, I can't believe he did that. What the hell's wrong with him? The nerve. And you know, then you kinda take a step back and you're like, well, logically it, it makes sense that he would do that.

[00:26:57] But I'm so, you know, my body, my emotions are riled up around this. Like, what is that? And that is often, you know, a trauma response. That is not about the situation that's happening with your boss. It's about something else that you're reacting to versus, you know, a personality trait. I, I think of. Those are sort of along the lines of values, like I'm angry because somebody's being, you know, unfair or this is unjust.

[00:27:21] So not an emotional response to something that you can logically understand, if that makes sense. 

[00:27:28] Chandler Stroud: I think that's super clear. I mean, I don't know that the examples will always be clear as day for those listening, trying to kind of unwind what is potentially an outcome of trauma versus. Just how I am day to day.

[00:27:43] But I think that's a really good place to start and like question to ask yourself in those moments. 

[00:27:48] Jen Baumgold: I think, like you said, like what's going on now? Right? Like sitting with your body and being like, what, what do I need right now? What's going on for me right now? Like that, being curious around that is, you know, okay, and like my values are being va you know, violated or.

[00:28:03] I can see this point of view and I can see why this person would be coming from this point of view, but I'm still really angry and I can't understand why. So it's nuanced and it's, it's sort of more intuitive. I wish I had a better example of it, but I think, no, we love the word intuitive. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, sometimes you just know, you're like, okay.

[00:28:22] Like I realize I was overreacting. Maybe I didn't in the moment, but upon analyzing it, I'm like, all right. That really didn't warrant that response, and I've noticed that I've reacted this way in similar situations. 

[00:28:34] Chandler Stroud: I think that's a really great way to break it down for people and very relevant given we were coming out of our month of November, KNOW Ven verse episodes that all focused on the importance of tapping into your intuition and really hearing yourself again, because that's the place where you can get clarity on a lot of what you're talking about right now.

[00:28:54] Jen Baumgold: And we're going into the holidays, which is the best time to be triggered by family? 

[00:28:58] Chandler Stroud: I mean, that's a whole nother episode. That is a wonderful, that should have made that the topic of today's conversation. Maybe we can address the fallout in January. Going. Just a step further on that, how does EMDR eye movement desensitization and reprocessing the kind of bilateral stimulation therapy you and I have done together and talked about many times on the show?

[00:29:22] So if you are curious, highly recommend you go back and listen to past episodes. But how does EMDR in particular support the integration of some of these learnings that occur during therapy sessions versus just the insight piece of uncovering them? 

[00:29:39] Jen Baumgold: I think EMDR, the, the bilateral stimulation piece of it, you know, in the eye movements sort of allows you to access memories, experiences.

[00:29:50] In a way that is, feels sort of safe and, and calm, right? It takes away a lot of that anxiety, the fight or flight response, so that you can say, okay, this happened and it activates that part of your brain, which, you know, trauma occurs in, we get stuck in our LI system, right? That's our, our fight or flight survival system that serves to keep us safe.

[00:30:17] But it cuts off our access to our prefrontal cortex and, and the executive function part of our brain that can make reason and meaning out of things. So EMDR allows us to look at this from, you know, kind of combining both and, you know, recognizing that these emotions, these body sensations exist and they can sort of be integrated with that, like more adaptive belief and.

[00:30:42] You know, to be honest, like we don't really know exactly how it works. There's a lot of theories out there that it allows like communication between the right and left hemispheres of the brain and integrates that. I think some people, you know, believe that it's the eye movements, which is similar to REM sleep and it, you know, our REM sleep allows us to integrate our experiences throughout the day.

[00:31:03] Traumatic material gets stuck in a different place, and so for whatever reason, our, our normal REM sleep patterns don't. Integrate that, but when you kind of, you know, you have EMDR and you are intentionally evoking REM patterns, it can help to integrate both the logic and the emotional response. 

[00:31:24] Chandler Stroud: Love that.

[00:31:25] Thanks for breaking that down. I know it's complicated, but I think it's helpful just because EMDR is such a big part of what we do together and what we talk about on the show, and I think it's been so valuable for me in identifying and excavating those insights so that I can then go integrate them and I.

[00:31:45] Would agree. I think it's definitely helped with the integration piece too. Just making me interact with those insights differently than I would in a triggering situation outside 

[00:31:56] Jen Baumgold: of therapy. Right, exactly. It gives you the place to interact with it from safety. Right, and from having this dual awareness of being in the office doing EMDR and the, you know, tappers or whatever you use, kind of like provides that relaxation.

[00:32:11] Opportunity to really access it and experience it in a different way than you would just remembering it on your own. Jen, is there like 

[00:32:22] Chandler Stroud: a simple accessible practice that you'd recommend women think about trying to tune into their bodies when they realize that a pattern of theirs has been activated in a situation outside of a therapy session?

[00:32:37] Jen Baumgold: Yeah, I think, you know, again, the power of the pause, right? Like, so you. It starts with awareness too. It's, it's aware what your body is telling you, and I think our bodies will never lie to us. They would be, you know, our, our mind can make up a story and we can rationalize things away, but if your body is telling you something, something's going on, so you feel this, you know, pit of your stomach because you know, I, you had an interaction with somebody and you don't really exactly know what it is.

[00:33:04] But you feel that, so kind of just taking a pause and not jumping to rationalizing it, you know, maybe it's a ten second pause doing, if you have like a pattern breathing practice four square breathing or just, you know, four in, six out and then just kind of putting your hand on your chest. And I think that touch, that contact helps too in just sitting with that and say, you know.

[00:33:28] What is my body trying to tell me right now? Like, what do I need? And you might not, you know, there's no wrong answer. It's just the act of doing it that kind of teaches us to really pay attention to the signals from our body. 

[00:33:41] Chandler Stroud: Thank you for sharing that. I think that's very accessible for anyone who finds themself in that kind of situation.

[00:33:47] Once someone recognizes a pattern that they might be exhibiting day to day, what are the tiny daily habits that begin rewiring it? 

[00:33:57] Jen Baumgold: Well, I think one of it is, you know, the pausing. I think we, we just did that, but mm-hmm. Naming, enter, tame it. Saying the pattern out loud. This is when I, people please.

[00:34:05] Right. This is, and by doing that, it's taking you out of the limbic system, outta the survival system. It's not an automatic reaction. You're now choosing your reaction to it because you're just the simple act of naming it. They say, you know, one of the expressions is, name it to tame it. You can do that with emotions.

[00:34:23] You can do that with patterns. You are activating that part of your brain, the executive function part of your brain, and so that doesn't live in the same place as your limbic system. It can't be activated at the same time, so even just recognizing it, I think the other thing is if you. Wanna increase, you know, your ability to regulate your nervous system.

[00:34:43] There's so many practices out there. Whether it's grounding, doing something like you know, creating more saliva in your mouth instantly calms and activates your parasympathetic nervous system. 'cause if you think about a parasympathetic nervous system is your rest and digest. If you create saliva in your mouth, you take a sip of water, you have a breath mint.

[00:35:01] It will activate that rest and digest system. So doing something along those lines, but making it a regular practice. So if you pair it with something like before you get outta bed on the mor in the morning, you put your feet down on the ground and take like three deep diaphragmatic breaths. And so like you're gonna be getting outta bed anyway.

[00:35:19] Think about putting your feet on the ground, pair it with that so that. It becomes an automatic thing, right? You're not, these patterns are automatic. So we wanna make regulating our nervous system, which then allows us to access again, that prefrontal cortex and that part of our brain that says, okay, we don't need to do this.

[00:35:36] How can we react differently? So by making, you know, regulation of your nervous system a regular habit, it will lead to more of a chance of being able to access how you wanna change those patterns. 

[00:35:49] Chandler Stroud: Got it. Okay. That's really helpful. I hadn't heard the saliva thing before. That was really cool. Oh 

[00:35:55] Jen Baumgold: really?

[00:35:55] That's actually, maybe we 

[00:35:56] Chandler Stroud: did talk about this once because I'm like, I think I said that all 

[00:35:58] Jen Baumgold: the time. 

[00:35:59] Chandler Stroud: I always have like lollipops or like worths in my bag or in my car and I'm like, well, maybe I was trying to like self. Self soothe when I'm like always reaching for food or something to suck on or, you know, I think that's really interesting.

[00:36:14] I don't know that we really broke it down to the level of the saliva activating your rest or digest state, which is so cool. And it's a 

[00:36:20] Jen Baumgold: simple, easy one too, right? Like if you have it nearby, being able to just have a breath mint. It's, yeah, it's automatic. It doesn't, you don't have to really think about it.

[00:36:30] You just take it and then it hopefully, you know, begins that process of calming your, your sympathetic nervous system down. 

[00:36:35] Chandler Stroud: So cool. Thank you for sharing that. You and I talk a lot on this show and one-on-one in your office about self-trust. Why is rebuilding trust in yourself the actual integration work after trauma?

[00:36:51] Jen Baumgold: Hmm. Well, trauma really cuts us off from ourself, right? And it, it builds this distrust in ourself because. Something didn't happen the way it was supposed to and we were in danger. And now it could have been our parents not keeping us safe. A caretaker, another adult, you know, in childhood trauma who did not do the things that they were supposed to, didn't protect us even as adults, you know, if somebody is a victim of a crime or you know, a car accident, any kind of trauma.

[00:37:19] It's easier to blame ourselves because we feel like we have control over that. So, and we also don't like random things. Our brain like to predict what's gonna happen next. They're meaning making machines, their predictors. We don't like the idea that random stuff could happen at any day, anytime. You know, I was in a car accident maybe like six months ago and it reminded me, I didn't know that.

[00:37:41] Oh my God. I mean, I was fine, but like, it just, you know, the impact like, and I, I. Automatically blamed myself for it, which I was not at fault. And that was, that's a whole other story. But because it came outta nowhere, you know, it was like that typical, like I was driving my daughter and her friend and I was, we were talking and I turned into somebody that wasn't supposed to be there, essentially.

[00:38:06] And it really shook me up because it was not what I was expecting to happen. And so by telling myself this automatic story of, well, it must have been my fault because. I don't even remember what the, how I turned it into my fault at this point. But then like there's a subconscious like control piece in that, you know, this, I did this so I can make sure it doesn't happen again.

[00:38:27] You know, I'm in control of it. But what happens is we start to internalize that as we can't keep ourselves safe. We can't be trusted, we can't trust our intuition, we can't trust that we know what to do and it separates us from that and. I think, you know, regaining that sense of trust in ourselves is so important.

[00:38:45] And there's a lot of different ways we can do that too. Again, in those small micro moments, you know, of taking a pause, taking control over, you know, making one decision that, you know, maybe doesn't seem like a big one, but you're like, you know what? I'm deciding what we're having for dinner tonight. Or setting a boundary, you know, going back to the emails, you know, I don't answer.

[00:39:06] Emails after eight o'clock, something like that. You know, that's protecting, 'cause boundaries are self-protection, right? And so we talk about people pleasing, we talk about trauma responses. Oftentimes there are people pleasing or trying to survive. We don't have good boundaries because we just wanna get the thing that we need, which is either safety or attachment.

[00:39:22] So. Trusting yourself to set boundaries, and I think boundaries can be a scary word because people think of them in such a big term, but they can be little ones. Again, you know, don't check your email after eight or wait a minute before responding to a text message. You know, wait an hour before you say yes to something.

[00:39:44] Chandler Stroud: I love the last one. Yeah, I think we're so quick to feel like we have to respond on the spot. Mm-hmm. But giving yourself an hour to really think it through is so helpful. 

[00:39:55] Jen Baumgold: So helpful. And it protects you right. And your time and your energy, and thus increases your, you know, faith in yourself to be able to trust yourself.

[00:40:04] Chandler Stroud: Yeah. Yeah, it does. To keep yourself safe. Yeah, it does. Ugh, you just convinced me that self-trust is at the heart of it all. The heart of it all. Even the intuition piece, it's, we spent so much time last month talking about intuition and getting in touch with your intuition and trusting your intuition, but yeah, I mean.

[00:40:26] You have to trust yourself in order to hear it in the first place and then follow through. Mm-hmm. So I just think that's really powerful stuff. 

[00:40:34] Jen Baumgold: Yeah. And, and so many of us have been disconnected from that. You know, I think that's part of the work in EMDR too helps us to see like, it, it sort of widens the capacity or it.

[00:40:46] I dunno exactly how it does it, but somehow allows for this. Okay, wait, no, that's actually not what happened. Right. You know? And that's okay. I don't need like random things do happen and it doesn't have to be my fault. 

[00:40:59] Chandler Stroud: Yeah. I think that's a really important point that you shared and a great example in your own life.

[00:41:05] I'm very sorry to hear about your car accident. But it does bring to life. So specifically what you're trying to explain, which, you know, our brains being these, meaning making machines and taking onus of something that was not your fault. Just so that we could feel more in a state of rest and digest and at peace.

[00:41:27] Yeah. Is like, and world 

[00:41:28] Jen Baumgold: is in, you know, because for a while after that car accident. I've, and I think these things happen to us too, and, and they help us to, you know, for me it helps me to, I, I think, empathize and understand my clients too, because that happened and I was, I wouldn't say I was afraid to drive, but I was like, oh my God, that could happen.

[00:41:49] Like, what if it had been worse? That could happen to me at any time. You know, this just came outta nowhere. It was a normal Saturday afternoon. You know, the kids were in the car. All these things that were like sort of piling up and. You know, trauma works like that. It, it shatters our assumptions that, you know, we're safe and we have to then make up a story of like how we can control that.

[00:42:09] And a lot of times it's taking our own responsibility. 

[00:42:13] Chandler Stroud: What kinds of support, whether therapeutic, somatic, relational, actually help the integration of this work stick? 

[00:42:21] Jen Baumgold: You know, I think it's, it's sort of like we talked about it being a, a. Lifelong process. I think EMDR, obviously sometimes people come in for refreshers on EMDR, you know, we've done the work.

[00:42:32] Something else comes up. Maybe it feels like it's not quite, something else is triggered and we'll work on that. It's the, the naming it while you feel it, right, so you know that you're feeling this pit of my stomach feeling. My tendency here is to say yes to people, please. And I'm noting that cognitively like those three things, like what happens with these patterns is they just happen automatically.

[00:42:57] So you wouldn't even have that cognitive piece of noticing the people pleasing you just do it and then be like, why am I so resentful that I said yes to this? Because I wasn't acting out of my true like desire or needs. I was doing it, you know, for somebody else to people please. And not even like, you know, people pleasing, can get confused with.

[00:43:18] You know, it's not being generous or empathic, it's doing it for survival. So rather than being automatic in it, it's noticing it, naming it along with the physical sensation of it. And that is integration, right? Like it's that awareness in all three places and being able to sit with it. So it's somatic in the sense of feeling it.

[00:43:41] And again, just becoming really in tune with, I think yoga's a great practice for that, of where we feel things in our body, you know? 

[00:43:48] Chandler Stroud: Yeah. Couldn't agree more. How do you know when someone is truly integrating? Like what does that look and feel like? 

[00:43:58] Jen Baumgold: So I know what it feels like from my perspective and I, I think, I think it, I think that, you know, clients have shared that it, it's a similar feeling.

[00:44:07] So another story of my trauma, and I'm sure I've told you this one 'cause I think I've told every client at some point a number of years ago, I was pretty. Like viciously attacked by a dog while I was running. And, you know, it was scary and it, it was terrifying. And I definitely had some acute stress reactions, but over time it, it normalized.

[00:44:25] But one thing that remained was every time I would run by a dog, I would have a physical reaction to it. So it was that integration in the bad way. It was the, you know, these two things were wired together in my brain, seeing a dog and running would produce this like uncomfortable feeling in my chest and like I would feel my heart rate increase.

[00:44:43] And feel a sensation of fear, but it wasn't enough to really like seek treatment for it. It just kind of. It would register and I'd be like, oh God, that's like still there. It was stuck. So perfect example of how trauma gets stuck and then triggered in a, and so it wouldn't matter, like the dogs that I would run by when I was running were either like, you know, behind gates, some were barking, some weren't, some, I mean, I remember running at work and, and running by like a chihuahua on a leash and feeling it.

[00:45:08] And this dog was like, you know, the size of a rat and, and clearly not gonna attack me on a leash. So it shows, you know, the cognitive and the body and, and limbic system were disconnected. I could rationalize that this dog was not gonna hurt me, but I still felt the fear, still felt it in my body, still felt the emotion.

[00:45:24] Mm-hmm. So then I went and trained for EMDR, and when you train in EMDR, you, you have to do it. You have it done to yourself. And I was one of the examples that they used for this incident. So after that. I would be running and I would see a dog, and I would expect to have that physical, like, you know, reaction that, that pit of the stomach, that, that quickening of my heart rate, that feeling of fear.

[00:45:50] And it wouldn't come. So like it still was there in that, like I would notice it, but I wouldn't feel it. And then over time I was like, okay, it's safe to run by, you know? Yeah. 

[00:46:02] Chandler Stroud: But 

[00:46:02] Jen Baumgold: removing that physical part of it. Allowed me to sort of like story it that it was safe, whereas I couldn't do that before.

[00:46:12] Chandler Stroud: Yeah. 

[00:46:13] Jen Baumgold: And it's not like the memory was gone or it's not like, you know, that wasn't a terrifying experience, but it became integrated into my system in a way that it no longer was like hanging out in my nervous system to be triggered by dogs. 

[00:46:28] Chandler Stroud: Which is a great feeling. 

[00:46:30] Jen Baumgold: Yes. Especially 'cause I love dogs so, and running, but.

[00:46:34] Chandler Stroud: Yeah, I think if helpful, my equivalent of that was I used to have like not, I did actually have a panic attack once, but just general nervousness when I would go away from my kids. Yeah. Overnight for that. You remember that? Yeah. Like I just was like, my rational mind would say they're with their dad, they're totally fine.

[00:46:54] But my body was like, oh my gosh. And I would spiral, like there was a serial killer in my house and crazy. Irrational thoughts and I felt like my palm sweat, my breath quicken all of the physical feelings. And in doing this work, the EMDR, coupled with like a, again, the somatic work and even spiritual trusting in something bigger than me, I learned to trust against So.

[00:47:19] I think similar to what you said, you just, you kind of just know. Mm-hmm. Like, you get so used to feeling one way and then you experience whatever the stimulus is and you feel different and you're like, oh my gosh, that's not what I expected. 

[00:47:33] Jen Baumgold: Yeah. 

[00:47:33] Chandler Stroud: Cool. 

[00:47:35] Jen Baumgold: Yeah, exactly. It's, and then it, it has more room too, right?

[00:47:39] You have more room to. Kind of explore different things to do, different things, to be like, oh, that's not taking up that space. I can, you know, enjoy running again. I can go on lots of vacations. I can, you know, trust myself to keep my kids safe. I can trust myself to keep myself safe, you know, while running.

[00:47:56] I think those are the things that are kind of cut off from us. 

[00:48:00] Chandler Stroud: Yeah. I mean, I, I think it makes total sense. Jen, before we jump, if listeners take one next step this week to embody a new pattern, what would you want it to be? 

[00:48:11] Jen Baumgold: I think it's, I mean, I don't know if this is oversimplifying it, but really feeling things in your body.

[00:48:15] I think we, we tend to be so disconnected from them and, you know, our, our minds are wonderful things, but really sitting with. Your body physical sensations, you know, and just noticing them. I think it starts with that, you know, that is the key to integration. You know, the first part of it. Because we often ignore what our body is telling us.

[00:48:38] You know? And we, it's gonna tell us things before our mind does, before our mind makes the story. We would talk about this in e mdr, like, don't think about it. Just feel it. And so we're often questioning like what we're feeling, why are we feeling, you know, not even why that would be a good thing, but dismissing it, you know, rationalizing in a way.

[00:48:55] I think if. You take, make a conscious effort to say, where are you feeling? Where am I feeling this in, in my body? You know what? When I'm doing this? 'cause sometimes you'll see that you're doing something that you think is what you're supposed to be doing, or the right thing, or you're telling yourself something, but it doesn't quite feel free of tension in your body, you know?

[00:49:17] Or when you're, you know. I think just with a certain person, right? You know, there are people that make our nervous systems feel very regulated and people who don't. So why am I feeling this when I'm around this person? What, what's going on? Am I feeling lack of tension? Am I feeling, you know, like every, the tension's draining from my body when I'm around this person?

[00:49:36] Or am I feeling really tense and really like, I can't, like I'm clenching. So I think just noticing those patterns, those sort of the below the level of cognition patterns that we have. 

[00:49:48] Chandler Stroud: I personally like co-sign that advice. I think it's great. I would love if more of us could tune into what our bodies are trying to tell us.

[00:49:58] So I love that advice. Thank you so much for sharing it and for being here today and going deep on this topic. I think it's so relevant and I as always learned even a few things from you today. So thank you so much, Jen, for being here. 

[00:50:13] Jen Baumgold: Oh, of course. This was really great. I loved it, Chandler. Thank you.

[00:50:17] Chandler Stroud: Can't wait till our next one, Jen, and to those tuning in, if you like today's discussion, please share it with friends and don't forget to follow the show. You can also visit healing heroes podcast.com to get resources, meet the heroes, and share your ideas for future episodes. Thanks for listening, everyone, and until next time, remember.

[00:50:40] Be curious, be courageous, and be kind to yourself. You've got this.