Spring Re-Releaes: Human Design and the Blueprint of You

Next up in our Season 1 Re-Release series, we're taking a look back at our first conversation with Human Design Coach Zach. Learn the fundamentals of Human Design and how discovering your unique blueprint can help you propel into the next chapter of your life.

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Human Design is a tool to help you gain a deeper understanding of yourself, both emotionally and physically. Known as the science of differentiation, it provides a unique blueprint for accessing parts of ourselves that are unreachable externally. Unlike purely mental systems, Human Design requires active experimentation and engagement. It integrates past wisdom, learned experiences, and memories while also aligning with the visions we hold for our future.

Hero and Human Design Coach Zach has coached and educated people professionally for the last decade, an adventure that has taken him all over the world. The core and foundation of his work is human design, a modern science containing ancient systems for exploring the nature of being. 

What You Will Learn

• [06:45] Why human design and how it has helped Zach's clients 
• [11:06] The 5 Types within human design, their strategy and authority 
• [14:44] The role of the mind in decision-making 
• [17:06] A practical example of how Zach applies human design  
• [20:11] What a typical human design session looks like with Zach 
• [22:28] What attracted Zach to human design 
• [26:18] Challenges Zach faced going all-in on human design coaching 
• [32:38] How human design helps people reconnect with themselves
• [34:17] Common fears about Human Design and why try it 
• [36:11] Tips on how you can get started with human design at home

Let’s Connect!

Zach Carlsen

Website | Instagram

Chandler Stroud

Website | LinkedIn | Instagram

Happiness Academy is now Healing Heroines, a signature space for women who are ready to feel more grounded, more peaceful, and more aligned — inside and out. 

Download a complimentary Healing Roadmap to discover our Past, Present, and Possible framework.

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Mixing and editing provided by Next Day Podcast.

Transcript

Hey guys, it's Chandler and welcome to The Healing Heroes. 

I promise you. 

I'm Chandler Stroud, an executive wife and busy mom of two who after years of living with anxiety health struggles and an unshakeable feeling like I should be happier, made a profound discovery that changed everything. Join me on a journey where unexpected paths lead to healing and more happiness. On this show, we will explore unconventional ways to unlock more joy in your own life. With the help of my very own healers and trusted advisors, the Healing Heroes. 

Hi everyone. I can't wait for this conversation today because we're talking about human design, which I think is a very underutilized tool for knowing yourself more intimately, both on an emotional level and on a physical level. My friend, Zach is going to tell us more about it shortly and how it encourages you to evaluate your full self through a completely different lens than you're used to. I found Zach initially through another healing hero, Kate, who was recently on the show talking about the power of tarot cards. Kate and I were sharing an Uber out of the city last fall, and I confided in her that while the EMDR and therapy I had been doing to fully process my childhood trauma had been so helpful, I still felt like that cognitive progress I was making was somehow divorced from my physical self. My body was still able to recognize that the trauma had taken up residence inside me and was wreaking havoc on my bodily systems and emotional states of being between that knowledge and after having a livelier conversation about all sorts of unconventional modalities that enable us to reconnect with ourselves, Kate emphatically insisted I reach out to Zach for a human design reading and the rest is history and fun fact. 

It was ultimately Zach who led me to exploring myofascial release or MFR. So I think it's really special to see how these incredible people are my healing heroes in more ways than just one. With that, let me tell you a little bit more about my friend Zach. He has been coaching and educating professionally for the last decade, an adventure that has brought him all over the world. The core and foundation of his work is human design, a modern science containing ancient systems for exploring the nature of being. He holds advanced academic degrees in pedagogy, literature and French, as well as certifications from Gallup Inc. In Clifton Strengths Coaching and SSC in human design coaching. In 2021, he obtained his master coach certification from Elementum Coaching Institute. His primary philosophy in the words of Ram das is that we are all just walking one another home. No one is broken or incomplete or half, but we forget for a time here so that we can grow, expand, evolve, and ultimately remember from a new elevated space of consciousness, he's on that journey for himself and assists others in the process through holistic, multi-dimensional support. Zach, thank you so much for being with us today. I'm so glad you're here and I'm thrilled to dive into the work you do since I think there's probably less awareness and understanding of human design amongst our listeners. 

Thank you, Chandler. I'm so excited to be here and to have this conversation with you and the listeners. 

Thanks, Zach. We are too. Before we get into your background and the great work you're doing, let's start with the basics so that listeners understand a little bit more about human design. Can you share an overview of what human design is? 

Human design is a system for exploring ourselves and exploring ourselves both in real life and then in our relationship that we have with ourselves internally, the stuff that no one else can see, but that we experience constantly. And so human design is a system made up of other systems to explore this, and there's five primary systems that interact with each other inside the umbrella of human design. We've got astrology, we've got the Hindu Brahman chakra system, we've got the Kabbalah, we've got quantum physics, and then we have the Chinese ing, and those are the big five. But underpinning all of that, and the only reason that this system actually is relevant, meaningful, valuable to people is that it incorporates our own personal experience, the things that we have learned, the wisdom that we have gathered and the memories that we hold for ourselves in the past, but also the vision that we hold for ourselves in the future. And so it's really like a blueprint or a guide for navigating the stuff that's really difficult to get at in another way, it's not a mental system exclusively. It's a system that requires us to experiment with it, play with it, and so it's an experiential system. 

I love thinking about it in an experiential way because I do think that speaks to the breadth of what it brings to the table and the impact it can have on those who get a reading from you. Just curious, why would someone reach out to you for a human design reading, 

I work with a lot of people who want to know the why of things, right? It's not enough for them to just notice something they want to know why is that there? So a pattern of self-sabotage, let's say, or people pleasing or perfectionism, we might notice that it's there, but we really want to go deeper into the why because we know intuitively, instinctively deep inside that if we know the why, where did this come from? What experiences did I have that created this response from me? Then I can do something with it. And so it's really about making what is unconscious conscious so that we have a say we're not on autopilot, or we don't feel like we're just being rag alled around by the universe. It puts us back into the driver's seat in a way that is both humble, right? We're not kings of the world, but we are the driver, the conduit of energy for our lives. 

Knowing the reasons why someone would want to use human design to get a better sense of themselves or their behavior or more. How has it helped the clients you've worked with? Why is it so beneficial for them? 

So human design is considered the science of differentiation, and it helps us get access to those parts of ourselves that we can't really get to externally, right? There's no signs or symptoms of them externally, but they're a part of our inner worldview. They're a part of our operating system in the world, and it may show in different ways that are frustrating, a tendency to people please or bypass reality, put our heads in the sand. And so people come to human design because they want access to that. They want to know more. Like I said earlier, if you're someone who wants to know the why of things, you can't learn it in a book. It makes what is so amorphous, so abstract, it makes it tangible. And so people come to me when they've often tried everything else. They've done Myers-Briggs, they've done the Enneagram. I used to work with a system exclusively called StrengthsFinder. They're working with a coach, a therapist. 

I know StrengthsFinder well. 

People who spend endless time on Instagram or TikTok watching the healers, the therapists, the coaches there, and they've got all these dots that they want to connect, but it's like some of them hit, some of them miss, but none of them feel true because human design is the science of you. It gives us a lens. It's both a telescope and a microscope. We can look at things that seem very distant and far away in ourselves through a telescope of human design, but also the part that I love most is when it becomes a microscope, right? We can really drill down and say, okay, this thing worked for that person. Why doesn't it work for me? And human design provides answers to it that aren't making the other people wrong. It's not making us wrong. It's an invitation to really celebrate ourselves and give ourselves full permission to full send everything that we're doing in our lives. 

And sometimes that means stopping doing things. I feel like a lot of us have a season in our healing journey where we're out there on a witch hunt, we're looking for the thing that's broken, we're looking for the thing that needs to be fixed, and we can find answers to some of that in human design, but more often than not, we find these really clear data points, evidence of where we're already so complete, we're already so whole, we're already so amazing. And then because we've made something unconscious conscious, we have an actual blueprint that we're looking at with lots of concrete data and information about us, we can then take action, not from a place of, I hope this works, but a place of this is me, this is the embodied expression of me. I know this, I understand it. I'm completely familiar with it. These patterns that we have of thinking, processing, making decisions, we are the experts in us. You, the listener, are the expert on you. Nobody is going to be able to come in and tell you who you are, but you can go in, look within, inquire within and bring those answers out and use that information in a new way. 

I appreciate how you laid that out for everyone and articulated it so beautifully that really brings to life the multidimensional nature of human design for listeners. So I really appreciate that. Do you have any specific stories of clients who have come to you with maybe navigating some of the challenges you spoke to earlier and have a session with you and have any aha moments in that session? Or do you find that the breakthroughs really happened long after you guys have met and then you get an email after the fact? I'm just curious how that works. 

The thing that I love about this system is that it isn't theoretical. There's a lot of information in it, but to answer your question, it's tangible stuff that we can use immediately. I remember after my first human design reading later that afternoon, I was practicing it. There wasn't this big delay. There wasn't some thing that I needed to go out and practice. It's like I could start experimenting with it that day. And to break it down just into tangible pieces, everybody has a type, and there's five types in human design. We've got generators, manifestors, reflectors, projectors, and manifesting generators. That type is sort of like your sign in astrology. It's a big broad stroke. Then everyone has a strategy, which is your best way of making decisions, and that's related to your type. And then everyone has an authority. And something that it took me almost 40 years to understand is that I'm not designed to make decisions with my brain. 

My mind is there. It's a beautiful, wonderful, miraculous thing, but it's not there for me to make decisions with. I actually have a place in my body and everybody else does too. That's not your brain, that is perfectly designed to guide us when we're making a big decision or a small decision. And then beyond that, everyone also has a profile. And the profile is kind of the character that you play. It's the costume that you wear as you do your work on this earth. So because it's the science of differentiation, then it breaks it down into just these minute degrees of information and data such that there's literally nobody on the planet right now who has the same design as you because of that thing I said a minute ago is nobody outside of us knows more about us than we do. 

Very cool. 

People see us from different perspectives. It's like the four people who are in a room with an elephant and one's holding the trunk and he says, an elephant is like a hose and one's touching the leg. And he's like, no, it's like a tree trunk and one's holding the tail. He's like, it's a rope. And then the fourth one is touching its side. And he's like, no, you guys are all wrong. An elephant is like a wall, and that's what it's like to be a person. We are the elephant and people get these different perspectives of us, but they don't have the whole picture. And in that scenario, one of them does know exactly what an elephant is, and it's the elephant. The elephant has been there, it's been itself, all of its life, just like you, just like me, just like everybody. And so we can seek outside perspectives to get wisdom, maybe point out blind spots, but we are the ones who have the whole picture. 

We have been there the whole time. You have been there for every moment of your life. We forget things. We bypass things, we block things out, of course. But really when it comes down to it, if we're going to have access to the fullness of our lives, we have to give ourselves permission to be the one to have that access, not outsourcing it to somebody else. And I want to say too, we don't do this work alone. I'm always working with a therapist, always working with a coach, always working with a mentor. I need those pieces in my life, but I still give myself full permission to make the final call, to have the authority and the direction that my life goes. And human design is like a user's manual. It's a guide, and it really, in my 10 years, it leaves nothing out. 

I am curious because you mentioned this at the lead in that basically that we all have this place within us where we are guided to make decisions from. And you acknowledged that your mind is a beautiful thing, but isn't your source of authority specifically, I'm curious, is that unique to you or is it possible for someone else's authority to be in the mind? 

The mind plays a role in certain people's chart, but nobody in the human design system is designed to make their decisions from their mind. And so if you're brand new to this, you might be asking, well, where do we make our decisions from? And my unique design is that I make my decisions from my sacrum, from my gut. Some of my good friends, they make their decisions from their spleen. 

I think mine was my spleen. You said that in our reading, and I was mean pretty shocked. I was like, I've never thought about my spleen, never once in my life. And you're telling me my spleen has been guiding me this whole time. 

Yes. And trying to guide, because one of the things that we learn when we dive into this is how significantly we bypass this amazing little brain inside of our body, and we try to apply mental intellectual energy to the process that's like making pros and cons lists and overthinking and being up in our heads all the time. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a way of dropping in where the answer is just there, it emerges. We can hear it, we can feel it. It isn't this thought process where we're weighing options. It's just a truth. And that's again why working with the system, it's not theoretical. We're actually required to go out and experiment with it and explore it and to see for ourselves. And I'm not a super far out person. I like to think and research far out topics, but when it comes to how I live my life, I'm super practical, very rational, very organized. If people are familiar with astrology, I'm very Virgo in that sense. And so I came to the system with a ton of skepticism, a ton of questions, and I've gathered so many data points along the way, and I've created points of comparison where, here's how I would've made this decision in the past and here's how I made it now, and I can just see the difference. Can 

You give an example in your own life to bring that to life for listeners where you were behaving a certain way or doing something a certain way and then you turn to human design and you put into practice those learnings immediately after? 

So many examples. The biggest one is that I have a mind that runs at a million miles an hour, and I had always felt like there was something wrong with me because of that. I have a million hobbies. I start things and don't finish them. I've got a giant bookshelf full of half read books, and I always judged myself for that. And I had always felt like I need to be someone who finishes everything. He starts, I need to embody this masculine energy of really having a lot of clear direction in my life. And I would just beat myself up about that all the time. And the coach I was working with in my human design asked me, tell me exactly how that works against you. How is it getting in your way? And I couldn't come up with anything. And she's like, here's exactly where that lives in your chart, and here's some things you can do to actually expand that energy. 

They call it a hot mess energy. I always felt like a hot mess. It was a negative thing, but it's actually the thing that makes me the most magnetic. It's what draws people in. People get curious. And then we have these incredible conversations, and I'm drawing from some science article that I read and a trip that I went on. That's the way that I'm designed to process information, to use information, to apply information. And so instead of beating myself up about it, I just leaned it more into it. And I've seen tangible results from this. I've doubled my income in the last three years twice using human design. It isn't just like spiritual seeking. It's actually a great way to double down on who we are and to have actual cool things happen. My relationships that I have today with people, my family, my friends, partnerships that I'm in, I lean on human design for that. I stopped playing small. When I'm playing small, I see it now and then I can make a choice about that, but I'm not hiding anymore. I'm not trying to be like somebody else. And there's something alchemical that happens there when we all turn pain into service. You and I have talked about that. It's really at the core as far as I can see, of the healing heroes universe right now. Instead of trying to fix something that feels broken, it's finding where we're already whole and then using that as the new point of reference. 

I really love that. And by the way, guys, you heard it here first, Zach has officially said, we can embrace our hot mess energy. So that was quite freeing for 

Me. And what I would say is that that will look different person by person. Me embracing my hot mess will look different than you, and not everybody will relate to that. Some people are like, I'm never a hot mess. And it's like, great. And I bet your design will reflect that. 

I'm learning so much. This is great. Zach, what does a typical human design session look like with you? What do you do to 

Prep? I do a lot of prep for every reading that I'm on. I'm totally committed to the system, to this work. The foundation is your birthdate, time and place. There's no questions to answer. There's no survey to fill out. It's just your birthday time and place. And so when I meet with someone who wants a reading, I get that information from them, and then I spend between one and two hours prepping their chart. Anybody can run their own chart. It's totally free. That's one of the things that I love about the system. There's nothing to buy. You can actually spend years studying your own chart, YouTube videos, Instagram, buying books, checking books out from the library. That's what I did the first couple years of my journey here is I didn't get a reading until I was about 18 months in. And so people will come to the session and I will have already spent usually two hours diving in and exploring their chart and making notes and coming up with real questions, not generic questions that I would ask everyone specific questions about you, about things that I wonder, okay, I wonder if this person struggles with X, Y, or Z. 

I wonder if this person really enjoys this versus that. And not only that, there's a specific way that we prefer to be interacted with based on our human design. Some people they want to be given wide open questions. What do you think of that? Other people, I'm one of these people I like, yes, no questions when it comes to exploring something within myself. And so I take that into account too. So there's nothing generic about reading with me. I mean, just so much information all at once. And so one of the things that I learned to do pretty quickly is to really target what's one question that you're exploring right now? And then we focus the reading around that instead of all the data points. 

That sounds like a very helpful approach for people who are coming to you and seeking your guidance because there was an impetus for them reaching out to you initially. And I think it's really nice when people can find what they're looking for. What was it about human design that first intrigued you? I 

Have a very curious mind, and when I first got into this work, I mean, I was in really, really rough shape 10 years ago. I was homeless, I was unemployed, I was in debt. I was really kind of at rock bottom, and I started exploring these systems that might give me clues into how I can get my life back on track. And I started with StrengthsFinder, which you and I both know, I've really love that system. That's a system of how do we get things done? And then I went into Myers-Briggs, and then I went into astrology and then Enneagram and each one helped me answer questions, but it never really gave me what I was looking for, which was the whole enchilada. And I heard about human design on a podcast, and actually a little bit of my ego is in this. They said 1% of people are this type, so 1% of the population are reflectors. And I was like, oh, I know I'm a reflector. I've always been misunderstood. I'm definitely going to be a reflector. And I went there and no, I was not a reflector. I was a 

Manifesting generator. That's 33% of the population. And my was like, well, what are we then? Why do we feel so different? Why do we feel so misunderstood? Why do I feel like an alien on this planet? And I went in and my first week, I wish I could go back and relive that week studying the system because I was insatiable. I mean, I was watching hours and hours of YouTube videos. I was calling around to libraries to figure out where I could get the guidebooks. And I was also looking for someone, a real person in my life who knew the system and nobody did. And one of my beliefs is that if we don't have the community that we want create it. And so just through repetition, I was talking to every single person I could find about this stuff, and lo and behold, a few people got interested in it too. And we started having these conversations and it really grew from there. But nuts and bolts, the reason why I migrated to this system is because it had the answers that I was looking for. How 

Powerful, when you find your passion, what you're meant to be doing, and then bringing it to others that had to have been a really eyeopening and transformational week for you, I would imagine. 

Yeah, I think we have these it moments in our lives, and there's a saying where it's some decades, nothing happens. And then some weeks, decades happen. It's like bamboo, right? You plant bamboo seeds and it takes years to establish its root structure. You don't even see anything popping up from the ground. And then once it's foundation is set, once those roots are there, it will grow so fast. People say, you can hear it growing. And so for years you don't see anything. And then boom, all of a sudden there's this incredible growth and it's not coming out of nowhere. Overnight. Success is a myth, right? Overnight success takes about 10 years. The first nine and a half years are pretty slow. And then that half year when everyone's like eyes are wide and going, oh my gosh, but it didn't come out of nowhere. It happens because there's a foundation there. 

That's a beautiful analogy, and I think it's so relevant and perfect for what we're talking about here. 

I 

Agree. Thanks for sharing that. I didn't know that about Bamboo. That's really fascinating. What were some challenges you faced personally or professionally in deciding to go all in and start your own human design and coaching business? 

For me, it was self-worth. It was worthiness, it was deservingness, it was this, who am I to do something that I love? Who am I to think that I could have a career that I'm absolutely excited about? That was the biggest hurdle, giving myself permission to do the thing that I truly wanted to do. And in my human design, this is really funny because I learned this way, way after the fact. I have an incarnation cross, like a life path of service. So I'm here to serve people. I'm here to support people. I'm here to show up and hold space for people. I'm here to help people heal. And I was already eight years into that journey by the time I really, really dived into this system. And so beyond the worthiness piece too, it was taking action. I fall into this pattern that I think a lot of people can relate to of preparing, preparing, preparing. 

I'm not ready yet. And at some point I needed to pull the ripcord and just go. And at some point I took the leap and I learned that we don't require confidence or competence to start something. We developed those things along the way. I developed courage by, not by learning, but by doing in the same way that we can't learn patience by reading about it in a book. We actually learn patience by waiting in line when we're running late or hitting every red light. And so for me, it was deservingness and then getting out of preparation and just diving in, collecting data along the way, learning, growing, applying what I was learning, repeat. 

So one massive big leap of faith. 

And I am a believer in making educated leaps. I think that quantum leaps are super fun. They're super cool. They're sexy. Like, oh, look at this huge leap that I'm taking. But doing it from a place of empowerment and joy and faith and belief in ourselves and not from the space of I need to prove something to my parents. I need to prove something to the people who doubt me. And so there's an art there. I do think at some point we do need to take that leap, but doing it with a specific intention I think is what makes the difference. 

I love that. And I have to share. For me, that resonates on such a personal level. My whole life has been operating from this place of hypervigilance and survival mode and trying to prove not just to others that I can achieve and succeed, but really trying to prove to myself, because my self-worth was so low for so many years. And I do think up until even the early part of this year, a lot of what motivated me was, I'll be happy when I get the thing. And this whole process of healing has opened my eyes to so much, but it did allow me to truly find my passion and what my purpose is in this life. And actually slight tangent, but someone once told me that the meaning of life is to find your passion, but that the purpose of life is to share it with others. 

It has resonated so deeply because in this journey, I really did find my passion, which is learning new ways, unconventional ways to connect with yourself, to go deeper, to expand your comfort zone, and really get to know yourself in a way that transforms your outward life and your inner life, but your outward life as a result of fixing your inner life. And now through the Healing Heroes, this is my sharing it with others, I felt so compelled to do that. But it is coming from a place of this is honestly what I feel so passionately about doing. And I've said to people along the way, I felt really called to bring U 12 amazing people and healers together. It wasn't something that I grew up thinking, I want to launch a podcast. I mean, that just was never part, I didn't even think about the podcast until recently. 

It just was the best way to bring your voices and your amazing work to the world. And I'm passionate about that because I think there's so much out there that people don't realize exists to help them in that individual journey, whatever it looks like. So I really appreciate you saying that because it means a lot to me given I am in that moment right now of also taking this leap of faith and doing this work. It's scary and you have to be vulnerable. And it's also so rewarding, so rewarding. And I'm so grateful every day that I've chosen to go down this path, no matter what the outcome, 

The way that you describe that is you've already won. There's a pattern that I think we've all been familiar with of playing not to lose versus playing to win. And it's sort of like, what's the difference between not being sick and being, well, a lot of times we get stuck in this pattern with our health of not being sick, but that doesn't mean being well, it doesn't mean being healthy. And so that perspective shift that you described, it's really inspiring and everyone has their own version of that. And I imagine that when you got the insight, I'm going to do a podcast, it felt a certain way. It just felt right. And then since then, the energy, the inspiration, the motivation I would imagine has been there naturally. You haven't had to force a whole lot of stuff on this journey. Is that accurate? 

That is accurate. It's incredibly energizing what someone else from the outside in would say, that is a lot of work doesn't feel like work to me. 

Amen. 

Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you're here. How have you seen human design help people reconnect with themselves on a deeper level? I 

See it every day, honestly. I give readings all throughout the week and everybody's path back to themselves to reclaiming their truth is different. Again, no one can self-love us for us, other people can love us, but self-love by definition, it has to come from within. And so I get to witness that in my day to day working with clients and people, this self-awareness being the seed toward, and then through self-acceptance and self-love, self-care becomes intuitive. And an example of that is I used to struggle with sleep, and I thought that I needed to calm down before sleep. So meditation, yoga, doing something gentle. And I was always so frustrated because none of that seemed to work. And through studying my own design, it's like I need to empty my tank every day. I need to exhaust myself physically, mentally, and emotionally throughout the day in order to sleep well that night. And if I can do that, my sleep will be deep, I'll recharge. I'll get to do it again the next day. And so all of those pieces are available to us, but nobody can from the outside point and say, this is what you need to do. We generally teach what worked for us. And human design is against that way. It's saying, here's what works for you. What do 

You think is a common fear or misnomer about human design, and what would you say to the listener who's thinking about giving it a try? 

Skepticism. It is really easy, understandable, and I think smart to be skeptical of a system that claims to offer so much based on just our birth information. Common fear is that this is somehow just a ploy, which is why I love that there's nothing to buy. I mean, of course you can hire people for a reading, you can buy the book, but it isn't like this network marketing thing that you need to buy into first and then get the results. And so I think it's really a sign of health to be discerning and to be skeptical of something that makes the intangible tangible based on just a birth date. And that's why go out, try it yourself. Part of my journey has been in 12 step recovery, and there's a saying in there that faith without works is dead. And so practice what you preach and apply what you know. 

And so when it comes to fears that people have around human design, I think for me it boils down to skepticism. And if you're skeptical of it, good, I would imagine that that has served you well. You're not going to get duped. And if this is appealing to you, just try it. Spend six months practicing living from your strategy and authority. Those are two of the mechanical components, the things we can apply from human design. And if you get evidence that you like, great. If you don't really nothing lost, you didn't have to spend money. And it doesn't take a ton of time either. The investment is minimal and the return, the potential returns, the ROI is just mean. Unbelievable. 

Any suggestions for how people can get started with human design at home? If they aren't ready to hire a professional for a 

Reading, they can go to any number of websites and get their chart. And my body graph.com is a great one, but you can Google it and you can run your chart 10 times and it will always be the same. It doesn't change. It was the same on the day that we were born, and it'll be the same for our whole lives. How that's expressed, how that's experienced, how we embody that design is what's different. That's what changes. But the design itself is the same. So it doesn't matter where you get your chart. And then what I tell everybody is look at it and see what's your first question? There are, I mean, 15 podcasts that are good that I can think of for learning. There's books available at the library. There's books you can buy online. YouTube, of course, YouTube University. And then the part from my own story is if you can find someone else in your life who is into this sort of thing, get them on board so that you have a real person that you can talk to, explore, exchange what you're learning. 

If you have kids, run your kids' charts and then learn about them. Because as a parent, you get this unique perspective. You can probably relate of your kids that only you see. Only every kid is so unique. We're all so unique and different. And so finding ways of exploring this material that makes sense to you. There isn't this a b, C approach that I've found really works. But going in looking at the chart, what's the first question you have? Answer that question. That answer is available online, guaranteed. If you want to know what a symbol means, if you want to know what one of the lines mean, if you want to know, okay, how did they figure out this? How does the etching play into the different gates and channels? All of that you can find out for free. 

That's amazing. And thank you for such an inspiring and insightful conversation today. I learned so much as I always do speaking with you, and I cannot wait to do this again in a few short weeks. Thank you for your time. And to those tuning in, if you enjoyed today's conversation, please share it with friends and don't forget to subscribe. You can also visit healing heroes podcast com to get resources, meet the heroes, and share your ideas for future episodes. Thanks for listening everyone, and until next time, remember, be curious, be courageous, and be kind to yourself. You've got this.