Getting "Unstuck" After Deep Betrayal: Debi's Story | Healing Heroines

Betrayal is something that no one is prepared for. Whether you've been betrayed by a relative, close friend, or spouse, these traumatic experiences can leave lasting emotional and physical wounds. Chandler sits down with Dr. Debi Silber, founder of the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute, to discuss why betrayal impacts us so deeply and what it takes to move beyond it. 

Drawing from both her personal experience with betrayal and years of research, Debi explains the stages of betrayal recovery, how to recognize when you're stuck, and what true transformation looks like. 

What You Will Learn

• [00:08:00] Why betrayal creates a unique kind of heartbreak
• [00:11:30] The moment she realized traditional healing wasn't enough
• [00:16:30] How her personal story became the foundation of her work
• [00:24:30] Why rebuilding trust starts with yourself
• [00:33:00] The five stages of healing after betrayal
• [00:36:30] How unresolved betrayal can keep you emotionally stuck
• [00:43:00] Who Unstuck was written for and why
• [00:47:30] What transformation looks like on the other side of betrayal

Resources Mentioned

• Trust Again by Dr. Debi Silber
• Unstuck by Dr. Debi Silber

Let’s Connect!

Dr. Debi Silber

Website | Instagram | TEDx Talk: Do You Have Post Betrayal Syndrome?

Chandler Stroud

Website | LinkedIn | Instagram

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Mixing and editing provided by Next Day Podcast.

Transcript

Chandler Stroud: [00:00:00] Hey, guys. Before we dive in, quick question. Have you ever gone to bed completely exhausted, but your brain just won't shut off? Or maybe you felt that wave of anxiety where your heart starts racing before your rational mind can stop the spiral? That's exactly what led me to Lux Neuro, and neurofeedback has genuinely been a game changer for me.

Chandler Stroud: What I love most is that everything is personalized to my brain, and I train virtually from home while watching TV. The [00:00:30] biggest shifts for me have been better sleep and actually being able to access calm in my body. If you also experience anxiety, have a hard time focusing, sleeping, or simply want nervous system support, head to luxneuro.com to learn more and book a free consultation.

Chandler Stroud: And as a Healing Heroes listener, you'll get 10% off one month of remote training or counseling if you mention the show. Okay, now let's get into today's episode. Hey, guys. [00:01:00] It's Chandler, and welcome to the Healing Heroes. I promise you. I'm Chandler Stroud, an executive, wife, and busy mom of two, who after years of living with anxiety, health struggles, and an unshakable feeling like I should be happier, made a profound discovery that changed everything.

Chandler Stroud: Join me on a journey where unexpected paths lead to healing and [00:01:30] more happiness. On this show, we'll explore unconventional ways to unlock more joy in your own life with the help of my very own healers and trusted advisors, the Healing Heroes. We're gonna make it.

Chandler Stroud: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Healing Heroes podcast. I'm your host, Chandler, and today we're here with another Healing Heroine episode. As a reminder, these interviews are with [00:02:00] women who have navigated trauma, tragedy, or hardship and healed with the help of our healing heroes, or who have healed through other approaches and now use their experience and learnings to help others in the world.

Chandler Stroud: Today's topic is no different. There are certain experiences in life that don't just hurt, they rearrange you. Betrayal is one of them, not because something ended naturally, but because someone you trusted made a choice that [00:02:30] shattered your sense of reality. And when that happens, it's not just heartbreak, it's confusion, it's self-doubt.

Chandler Stroud: It's questioning your own instincts. It's lying awake at night wondering how you missed something We don't talk enough about that inner world. We talk about the drama, we talk about the event itself, but we don't talk about what happens inside a woman when trust is broken. Today's conversation isn't about details or [00:03:00] gossip.

Chandler Stroud: It's about what it feels like when the ground shifts beneath you and what it actually takes to rebuild. Because sometimes healing isn't just about moving on, it's about rebuilding your relationship with yourself in the process. If you've ever felt blindsided, if you've ever questioned your own judgment, if you've ever thought, "Why am I still not over this?"

Chandler Stroud: This conversation is for you. Before we dive [00:03:30] in, let me introduce you to today's guest. Dr. Debbie Silber is founder and CEO of the Post Betrayal Transformation, PBT, Institute and National Forgiveness Day. She's also an award-winning speaker, two-time number one international best-selling author, and host of a top 2% podcast, From Betrayal to Breakthrough.

Chandler Stroud: Her groundbreaking PhD study revealed three discoveries that completely [00:04:00] revolutionized our understanding of betrayal and full healing. She's also the creator of the world's number one betrayal recovery certification and has been featured on Fox, CBS, The Dr. Oz Show, and TEDx twice. But what makes Dr.

Chandler Stroud: Debbie's message truly resonate is her own story. After spending the early part of her 34-year career as a lifestyle coach, a devastating personal betrayal sent her [00:04:30] into a PhD program and into discoveries that transformed both her life and her field. Her journey through all five stages is the living proof behind the research and the reason her message reaches anyone who has ever wondered if they will truly be okay again.

Chandler Stroud: Debbie, thank you so much for being here today. I am truly so excited for this conversation, and I just really appreciate you taking the time. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Thank you. Really looking forward to this conversation as well. [00:05:00] 

Chandler Stroud: Well, thank you for that. As is customary when I interview a heroine on the show, I like to start with a few light warm-up questions.

Chandler Stroud: So today, Debi, I'm curious, when you think back to those years raising your kids, what's a small, maybe ordinary moment that still makes you smile? 

Dr. Debi Silber: Well, I mean, there were so many because there were so many kids and so many dogs. We, you know, we had a, we had a lot going on. It was, you know, and it just sounds kinda corny to say, [00:05:30] but it was, it was those little moments.

Dr. Debi Silber: It was those little moments of, I remember when they were super young, having all four of them in the bathtub together, you know? Or, or j- ugh. I mean, it was just, it was just, a, a adorable. Or just all sitting around, like, just with music playing and, and just simple, like simple moments. I think one of the things we didn't do enough of was get together with a lot of other families because we, I mean, I, we have the dearest friends, [00:06:00] but we had such a pack with just our own kids that we just really enjoyed just spending time.

Dr. Debi Silber: They loved spending time with each other, and that was, that was enough. It was, it was really a special time. 

Chandler Stroud: I love that. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Hard, but 

Chandler Stroud: special. Hard, but special. I think a lot of women would feel that today as well. But I love that you bring back such a simple memory like the bathtub. It's really amazing the stuff that stands out and the things you remember years after the fact.

Chandler Stroud: Oh, yeah. [00:06:30] So thank you for sharing that. Um, jumping ahead, what's one thing bringing you joy this week? 

Dr. Debi Silber: This week, we just... I mean, there is so much now. We had, last week was one of my daughters got married, and all the kids came in- Mm ... with all of the partners, and that was just incredible. In a few weeks, my first grandchild is due.

Dr. Debi Silber: So- Congrats. Thanks. So it's just, it's such a great time. I think one of the things that I love so much is, as [00:07:00] adults, they're like four best friends. And what's so fun for me to see too is their partners. I mean, here are these four random people all coming together, and their favorite people are my fra- favorite people.

Dr. Debi Silber: And to see the four partners having fun on their own, getting... You know, just, just giggling and, you know, joking around with each other- Mm-hmm ... that's as special as seeing the four kids together. Because they didn't, they didn't know [00:07:30] each other. They're all there because of my kids. So, uh, it's fun and beautiful to watch, and watching them as adults now.

Dr. Debi Silber: It's such a different experience. And it's fun for me. I don't... You know, I'm, I'm a mom always, but in a very different capacity now. 

Chandler Stroud: Yeah, yeah. That's so cool. I mean, in so many ways, you probably looked around and thought like, "Wow, I built this." Like- 

Dr. Debi Silber: And I- Yeah ... it all started 

Chandler Stroud: with me. Right. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Crazy. And I let them know that.

Chandler Stroud: As, as you should. 

Dr. Debi Silber: I [00:08:00] totally do. You know? Totally do. Um- This is, this is all what we've created, and, and we're not, we're not missing a minute of it. 

Chandler Stroud: No. I love that you say it that way. That's great. Can you share with our listeners the piece you told me before we hit record today about how the party ended?

Dr. Debi Silber: Oh, okay. So now imagine we had, here we have this wedding at the house, and it was just so beautiful. And y- I guess you know it's a good party when at the end, there are at least 40 people in their dresses, in their [00:08:30] suits, in the pool. The music is playing, and everybody, one after another, after another. And I personally jumped in with the other mom of the bride, and we jumped in together.

Dr. Debi Silber: And it was just... I mean, the, to see the couples jumping in and the singles jumping in, it was just so much fun. And, uh, we used up every towel we had. 

Chandler Stroud: I bet you did. And 

Dr. Debi Silber: we actually had to... My, my zipper got stuck on my dress, so we had to cut me out of the dress. It was... We have so many... [00:09:00] Oh, yeah, it- It was, but it was worth- I 

Chandler Stroud: mean, Debbie, we gotta hang outside of the recording.

Chandler Stroud: I wanna come to your house. This sounds like the best party anybody has ever been to. 

Dr. Debi Silber: It, it really, it really was. I mean, here it is, it's over a week later, we're still hearing about it, and, and the neighbors too. 

Chandler Stroud: That's so cool. It was great. What a joyous event. Like, I would just be on cloud nine. I'm sure that's gonna carry you for a very long time.

Chandler Stroud: Well, thank you for letting us in and giving us a peek into that, I guess, [00:09:30] private with 40 of your closest friends, but, like, very special family moment. That sounds so, again, so joyous, so much fun, and congrats to you and of course your daughter on such a big occasion. That's exciting. Okay. Well, Debbie, let's get into it.

Chandler Stroud: I'm so eager to hear more about your work, but before we get there, I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you came into this field. So to the extent you're comfortable sharing, can you tell us more about your background and what drove [00:10:00] you to choose betrayal as a focus area? 

Dr. Debi Silber: Oh, you don't think people just study betrayal because they like the topic?

Dr. Debi Silber: Why do you study- 

Chandler Stroud: I mean, I'm fascinated by it, but, like, to devote your life, I mean, there's definitely a passion there. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Oh, yeah. No, you study because you have to. So as you said, I mean, I'm in business 34 years, health, mindset, personal development, and then I had a painful betrayal from my family which made no sense.

Dr. Debi Silber: I, I thought I did all I needed to do to heal from that, and then it happened again a [00:10:30] few years later, and this time it was my husband. And anybody who's been through it, you're shocked, blindsided. The world you've known is no longer, and, um, it was the most painful experience I've... And I've been in the ICU.

Dr. Debi Silber: I've lost loved ones. Nothing, nothing shattered my heart like this. And, you know, usually I would go to books or courses or mentors to help me heal, and there wasn't anything, and I had to get it together. I mean, [00:11:00] these kids were counting on me. I had a business to run. I didn't know what to do, so I, I thought, "Okay, well, maybe not the choice that many people would choose, but I'm going to study this and understand it so well that I'm taking this on at the PhD level."

Dr. Debi Silber: I mean, sort of a weird choice at, at, as a way of healing, but here I was, 50 years old, going back for this PhD, and I... And truly, the intention was I need to heal, and I need to be there for my kids and my [00:11:30] clients and- I remember going through the program and then doing the study saying, "I have no idea how I'm gonna heal from this, but if I do, I'm taking everybody with me."

Dr. Debi Silber: Like, it was- Hmm ... knowing. I mean, I'm a highly sensitive empath with integrity as my highest value. It wasn't enough just to heal. Like, th- I had to do something really powerful with something this big, for me anyway. And so I did the study. Uh, the study led to these [00:12:00] three groundbreaking discoveries which changed everything we know, and changed my family, my work, my health, my life.

Chandler Stroud: Wow. Wow. I'm so excited to get into those three discoveries. Before we do, I wanna pause here and just ask what, what were you navigating and balancing at that time in your life? And you can choose the first or the second betrayal, both, but, like, how old were your kids? What was... What were you doing for work?

Dr. Debi Silber: My kids were teenagers, and I think one of the reasons why it hit all of us so [00:12:30] hard was my husband was the one who told them. And if anything has you wake up and realize what's important, it's losing everyone important to you. And that was... It was such a crazy time because I... And I remember sitting down with each of the kids saying, "Uh, y- you're seeing me crash.

Dr. Debi Silber: You're going to see me rise. You're, you're gonna, gonna get an inside scoop in what healing looks like." I have no idea how, but there was [00:13:00] no way they were gonna learn anything else. And, you know, a- as like anybody who has kids, they're each so different. So I remember sitting each of them down and, and speaking with them in the way that they needed.

Dr. Debi Silber: And it, you know, even, like, I have one son, and he, you know, he doesn't talk much, but I remember him just giving me a hug, and he's like, "We got this, Ma." Like, and that was it, y- you know? And I knew for him that was it. I just needed them to know it had nothing to do with them. [00:13:30] And I think giving, giving them the space, and me the space, where I let them know I'm not certainly at my best.

Dr. Debi Silber: It has nothing to do with you. We're all in this together, and we're gonna do something really powerful with this. 

Chandler Stroud: Yeah, and I love, I love hearing you say that, but I think what's so incredible about what you're sharing is that you felt that in your body, in your heart, even prior to doing the work, learning what you [00:14:00] learned, uncovering what you uncovered, and bringing it to the world.

Chandler Stroud: It was like you decided to study this to help people, to transmute your own pain into purpose for others, and I think that's so incredible that you knew that even in the depths of your grief and in what you were experiencing at that time. 

Dr. Debi Silber: You know what? I think that comes from... And thank you. I, I think that comes from I've always trained...

Dr. Debi Silber: I, I think I just trained myself where I would rather [00:14:30] try something and fail than live with the shoulda, coulda, woulda. That I can't... I ha- I have made that so much more intolerable Then if you try something and it doesn't work, the what if torments me. Because what's the worst that happens? So it doesn't, it doesn't work, right?

Dr. Debi Silber: Like, okay, you can survive that, but I, I couldn't live with myself if there could have been something so helpful and healing for me, my kids, my [00:15:00] clients, the world, and I didn't pursue it because I was afraid or because I didn't feel I had what it took or whatever. I, v- I have made that feeling way more intolerable than, okay, didn't work, like a million other things, right?

Dr. Debi Silber: And I, I think that's been, that's been something that has been so ingrained in me for so long, uh, and it's probably the reason why I've done a lot of things and [00:15:30] also failed at a lot of things. 

Chandler Stroud: Yeah. I love that. I think I needed to hear that today, and I'm sure so many other women listeners also needed to hear that today because we so often get in our own way.

Chandler Stroud: And look what you've created on the other side of not being afraid to fail. I mean, it's really impressive. 

Dr. Debi Silber: A- and it's not that there was no fear. I mean, the fear was tremendous because I'm a really private person. I mean, when you think about it- Mm ... betrayal is the most gossiped topic. [00:16:00] Who doesn't, you know, who's not gossiped- Yeah

Dr. Debi Silber: for the most part? So I remember, uh, when I wrote Trust Again, and, um, and that was really the, the research and the... It was really a lot of my dissertation made sort of reader friendly into a book. And, and I sat down with the kids, and I sat down with my husband. I wanna close the loop on that story as well.

Dr. Debi Silber: And I said, "Everything is in here. I just want you to know." And I thought they were gonna be like, "Oh, Mom, come on," 'cause, you know, their friends were following me [00:16:30] on Facebook and, and all of this. And, and they were like, "You know what, Mom? You're gonna help a, you're gonna help a lot of people." My absolute biggest supporter was my husband.

Chandler Stroud: Wow. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah, and which was, that's how you know. You know, betrayal will show you who someone truly is. It also wakes them up. It has the opportunity to wake them up to who they temporarily became, not that you need to do anything with it, but there's tremendous opportunity if you do. But it takes the absolute crash and burn of the old.

Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah. And [00:17:00] that's when you can say, "Who do I wanna become? What am I ready for now? What was I settling for?" What, what do I need? And when you move forward with that intention, and, and there's a process as well, but when that's the intention, and then if the betrayer decides the same thing and they do that as well, you're meeting up as two very different people.

Dr. Debi Silber: And, and to close the loop on my own story, you know, healing [00:17:30] is, and rebuilding is always a choice, whether you rebuild yourself and move along, and that's what I did with my family. They, they were the same. They weren't changing, so I healed and, and moved along. Or if the situation lends itself, if you're willing, if you want to, you rebuild something entirely new with the person who hurt you, and that's what I did with my husband, you know, not long ago as two completely transformed people.

Dr. Debi Silber: We, uh, married each other again 

Chandler Stroud: You did? 

Dr. Debi Silber: Mm-hmm. New rings, new vows I don't think 

Chandler Stroud: I realized that. [00:18:00] 

Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah. New rings, new vows, new dress, and our four kids as our bridal party. 

Chandler Stroud: Wow, Debbie. Yeah. That is an incredible story. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Th- there was no renewing. No, it was over. It was over. But that's, that's the missed opportunity with so many people.

Dr. Debi Silber: They- Hmm ... they're trying to patch up, patch up, patch up, look the other way, ch- you know. No, no. It takes the death and destruction of the old, and that's how you rebuild the new, whether it's a new you or a new collective you. [00:18:30] You never know what's gonna show up, but for sure the opportunity is in completely rebuilding a new version of you that's so deliberate and intentional, uh, and that wouldn't have had the opportunity to be rebuilt had the experience not happened.

Dr. Debi Silber: That's trauma well served. 

Chandler Stroud: Yeah. I would agree with that, and I totally co-sign everything you're saying. I think that's absolutely nail on the head. That's just, uh... Wow, that's such an incredible story, and I love how you talk [00:19:00] about the destruction of the old to make way for the new, and that both of you really were able to do that individually in order to find something brand new together as a pair.

Chandler Stroud: I think, wow, that's very cool. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah, that's the scary part because so many people aren't willing to do that. They, they'll, they'll just take the familiar known. Yeah. But then they take all that it gives them as well. You know, I use this, um, analogy. I, I talk about this, I think it was in that second TEDx, Do You Have Post-Betrayal Syndrome?

Dr. Debi Silber: I talk about the old [00:19:30] house. This is what most people do. They strive for resilience. Now, resilience you need for your every day. It's important. Like, in using this old house as an example, you'll see it here. Transformation's a whole different thing. So let's imagine there's this old house, and let's say the old house needs a new roof.

Dr. Debi Silber: You get a roof. That's resilience. You're bringing it back. You're restoring, right? Or it needs a new boiler. You get a boiler. That's resilience. You're restoring. Mm-hmm. Here's trauma and transformation. A tornado comes by and levels the [00:20:00] house. A new paint job's not gonna fix it, and a new boiler's not gonna fix it, right?

Dr. Debi Silber: Now, you, you could stand there, and you have every right to kick and scream and mourn and cry at the loss of your house and look at the lot where your house once stood and say, "This is the worst thing that's ever happened." You'd be right. But if you decide, you don't have to, but if you decide to rebuild that house, why would you build the same one?

Dr. Debi Silber: There's nothing there, right? Why not give it everything the old house didn't have? Make it better, make it more [00:20:30] beautiful. That's the opportunity that so many people miss because they're so busy just with, with the rebuild, you know, patching up. 

Chandler Stroud: Yeah. Yeah. No, so well said. Thank you for that analogy. I think as we start to transition into more of the work that you're doing today, I'm just curious to go back again in time, and you mentioned as you were talking about betrayal how you sought out the healing and the self-help books, and that you realized that none of that was going to get you as far as you needed [00:21:00] to go in this work.

Chandler Stroud: Can you describe what that betrayal, both of them at the time, felt like in your body and in your inner world? Like, how was that different on a physical, emotional, even spiritual level? 

Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah. You, you know, I remember one of my study participants saying, "You know what it feels like? It feels like every negative emotion you can imagine, getting punched in the gut, and losing a child in a crowd all at the same time."

Dr. Debi Silber: Mm. It's such a shock to the body, to the mind, to the heart. This [00:21:30] was your person. This was the person who gave you a sense of safety and security, and that's who took it away. This is the person you run to when other people are causing harm, and that's the person causing the harm. So it's so disorienting.

Dr. Debi Silber: It's so heartbreaking. Heartbreak is real. Heartache is real. I never felt a physical pain in my heart except for when I was betrayed. 

Chandler Stroud: Mm. 

Dr. Debi Silber: And, and y- you [00:22:00] were... You know, with, with betrayal, you're abiding by the spoken or unspoken rules of that relationship, assuming the other person is, too, and without your awareness or consent.

Dr. Debi Silber: Someone just completely broke those rules. It's such a violation of, of everything that you signed up for. Yeah. And that's why it's like, how do you just get over something like that? You can't. You can't. The idea is use that [00:22:30] experience to create something magnificent. 

Chandler Stroud: I love that. I do. I really love that, and that gets back to what you were saying about the destruction of the old and creating something entirely new in its place, which actually aligns really well with a lot of what we talk about on the show and how people come back from those deep-rooted traumas and tragedies.

Chandler Stroud: You really do have to create something new for yourself, and in many cases, it might even be a new you, right? I mean, [00:23:00] everything changes from the inside out when you go through these experiences. Thank you for sharing that, Debbie. I really appreciate you being so candid with our listeners, and I, I think it's so cool to hear the kind of tension between how this just completely...

Chandler Stroud: how this can really have an impact on you, you know, physically and in all these different ways. But at the same time, you kept so much room for the light and the hope and the inspiration that you could [00:23:30] create this new life, and you could one day feel differently. Which is how I think we jump into your work because obviously you've dedicated your life to this and have made some incredibly powerful and groundbreaking discoveries as a part of that journey.

Chandler Stroud: Debbie, one thing I'd love to ask you before we jump into kind of the bones of the work you do, how did betrayal specifically change the way you saw yourself? And maybe even a [00:24:00] better question is, how did betrayal change the way you see yourself today? 

Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah. Well, the version of you you're seeing now is a stage five version, and when I go into the dis- discoveries, you'll see how that's created.

Dr. Debi Silber: Uh, I think one thing that is so consistent when we've been betrayed is we take it personally. Mm-hmm. We think it has something to do with us, and I can share with you, after working with thousands of betrayed and thousands of [00:24:30] betrayers, it has nothing to do with you. This was someone else's unhealed trauma, sense of entitlement, you know, whatever it was, and you were deeply and forever impacted by it, but it had nothing to do with you.

Dr. Debi Silber: So th- that's the first thing. But it, but it's so common to feel such embarrassment, such shame, you know, s- j- in something that we didn't even do, and that's one of the reasons why. The first discovery was [00:25:00] that betrayal is such a different type of trauma. That's exactly one of the reasons why. Like, think about it.

Dr. Debi Silber: When you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss. You know, people rally. They're bringing you the casseroles. They're showing up. With betrayal, because of the shame, because of the humiliation, because of the embarrassment, very often the betrayed doesn't even tell anyone. So here they've had one of the most painful of the human experiences, and they're struggling and [00:25:30] suffering in silence.

Dr. Debi Silber: Now, to make matters worse, the betrayer very often isn't taking the heat for it at all. The betrayed is covering for the betrayer. They're so loved by the community, by the family, by the friends. They don't wanna ruin their reputation. So now imagine, it's like a Tuesday, right? They've j- their whole world has imploded and, and the kids are like, "What's for dinner, Mom?"

Dr. Debi Silber: And they're showing up for work and doing whatever. It's unheard of. You would never expect that [00:26:00] with another type of trauma, but with betrayal you do, and, and that shattering of trust. You know, when you lose someone you love, for example, let's use that example again, you know, you don't look back and question that relationship.

Dr. Debi Silber: You look back with the beautiful memories, right? Extracting all those beautiful moments. With betrayal, the whole relationship comes into question. Like, was I living a lie? Was the whole thing not real? When I thought we were having this great family vacation, was this really what was going on? When I thought I had this amazing [00:26:30] business partner and they were stealing all the funds, how did I not know?

Dr. Debi Silber: So it's, it's so shocking. It's so shocking. And, and trust, you know, you brought up trust. Trust is so... It's so interesting because the most well-meaning, well-intentioned coaches, counselors, therapists say, "Oh, well, you know, you need to learn to trust again." And I, I wrote the book Trust Again. I, I understand the, the reason for trust.

Dr. Debi Silber: And they'll say, "Well, start with some- something low stakes. Start with, like, a friend." That is so backwards, and here's why. And again, well-meaning, [00:27:00] well-intentioned. We have our own system that we create to decide if someone is trustworthy. Let's say if they do something 50 or 100 times consistently, repeatedly, I can feel that person is trustworthy, right?

Dr. Debi Silber: And we decide. You, we have given them our seal of trustworthiness. Now they betray us. Not only is that such a shock, now we look at it saying, "Oh, no, my system that I've created- is fundamentally flawed. [00:27:30] I can't count on my system. My compass is broken. See? So how can I trust in anything or anyone? I can't even trust anything I'm thinking or feeling.

Dr. Debi Silber: There's so much to it, so much to it. 

Chandler Stroud: It's so multilayered and multifaceted the way you describe it. Yeah, I mean, you can really just keep digging and find new ways to look at this situation. Now, I think I would love to hear more about some of the more technical aspects of your work, Debbie, based on everything you [00:28:00] shared.

Chandler Stroud: Thank you again. You've coined the term post-betrayal syndrome. What is that exactly, and how does betrayal trauma differ from other traumas we experience in life? 

Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah, so th- the first discovery was that betrayal is a different type of experience, so any- anybody who says trauma's trauma, no, it's not. Uh, it's different, and here's why.

Dr. Debi Silber: With other traumas, like again, let's use death of a loved one, definitely a trauma. There's not a shattering of the self, rejection, [00:28:30] abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust. They're intact with other traumas. But with betrayal, there's a shattering of the self. So the invitation after a trauma is to rebuild your life without that person, without that house you lost in the house fire, whatever it was, right?

Dr. Debi Silber: Whatever the trauma is, the invitation is to rebuild your life. With betrayal, not only is the invitation to rebuild your life, you need to rebuild the self because that was shattered, too. And so that's [00:29:00] another reason why betrayal is different. So that's answering one part of your question. The second part, post-betrayal syndrome, that was the second discovery, and what we learned was there's this collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal, it's now known as post-betrayal syndrome.

Dr. Debi Silber: Now, we've tested over 100,000 people to see to what extent they're struggling, and what's so interesting about this is we've all heard that beautiful sentiment, time heals all wounds, right? Well, I have the- Mm-hmm ... proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's [00:29:30] not true. There's a question that says, "Is there anything else you'd like to share?"

Dr. Debi Silber: on the assessment, and people write things like, "My betrayal happened 35 years ago. I'm unwilling to trust again." "My betrayal happened 15 years ago. Feels like it happened yesterday." So we know we can't count on time. We can't even count on a new relationship to heal it. Healing needs to be deliberate and intentional.

Dr. Debi Silber: Uh, happy to share the stats if you wanna hear them, but just... I'll just pull one to show you how- Yeah, 

Chandler Stroud: please ... 

Dr. Debi Silber: out of over 100,000 people, men, women, just about [00:30:00] every country is represented, 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. Think what that'll do to the decisions you make.

Dr. Debi Silber: 94% deal with painful triggers. Here are some of the common, uh, physical symptoms. 71% have low energy. 68% have sleep issues. 63% have extreme fatigue. You sleep all night, you wake up, you're exhausted, your adrenals- Mm-hmm ... have tanked. 47% have weight changes. In the [00:30:30] beginning, you can't hold food down. Later on, you're emotionally eating.

Dr. Debi Silber: 62% can't concentrate. So imagine you can't concentrate, you have a gut issue, you're exhausted. You still have to work, show up, do your, all your things. This one killed me. 84% have an inability to trust. Mm. Think about what that's gonna do with any relationship going forward. 

Chandler Stroud: Wow. Wow. Those are incredible statistics and numbers.

Chandler Stroud: Thank you for sharing those. It's, it's really mind-boggling, [00:31:00] not that they would be feeling that way, but just the sheer volume of those impacted who are still feeling it that acutely- 

Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah ... 

Chandler Stroud: is really amazing. 

Dr. Debi Silber: And they're walking around fine. 

Chandler Stroud: Mm. 

Dr. Debi Silber: That's- Yeah ... that's what gets me. I'm like, "Ugh, come on." 45% of everybody betrayed has a digestive issue of some kind, Crohn's, IBS, diverticulitis, reflux, whatever.

Dr. Debi Silber: So a woman came in. She was in her mid-80s, and she had a 70-plus-year [00:31:30] digestive issue from a family betrayal. She was adopted. They didn't tell her, something like that. 70-plus years struggling with this gut issue. You can imagine the protocols, the medicine, the supplements, the foods, the everything. Finally for her to just be like, "I have a bad stomach.

Dr. Debi Silber: Like, this is me. I have a bad stomach." Two weeks into healing the betrayal, she healed from a 70-plus-year digestive issue. That's what happens, but we have all of these symptoms that started as a result of the betrayal, and [00:32:00] they do not heal on their own. So here we g- we can go a lifetime, and this woman almost did, right, a lifetime managing and suppressing symptoms that are from the betrayal, and the worst thing is- That person who caused it may not know, care, remember, they may not even be alive, and here we are decades later because it was left unhealed.

Dr. Debi Silber: The good news is- Mm ... you can heal all of it, which was the third discovery. So the third discovery, for me, this was the most exciting, and what we learned was [00:32:30] while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and most people do- Mm ... if we're going to fully heal, we're going to move through five proven, predictable stages.

Dr. Debi Silber: And what's even more exciting about that is we now know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at each stage, and we know what we need to do in order to move from one stage to the next. Healing's entirely predictable. 

Chandler Stroud: In your book, Debbie, you talk about the five stages of healing from betrayal, and I'd love to spend a couple minutes on each so [00:33:00] listeners just get a feel for the progression.

Chandler Stroud: Can you share more about what they are and how the five stages work? 

Dr. Debi Silber: Okay. So stage one, this is actually before it happens, and what's so interesting about stage one is we're not scanning for betrayal. We're living our life. We're in what we think is a healthy relationship, so we're going to work, we're raising our kids, we're doing all the things.

Dr. Debi Silber: We're kind of on autopilot, uh, because we're, we're putting the time into our relationship, but not in the, in the, the [00:33:30] mode of scanning for trauma, right? So that's why we're so blindsided by it. Then w- and then when there is this shattering of trust, which is stage two, what's so common is, now we go back and we're ruminating, and what's happening here is, now here's where people say, well-intentioned people, "Oh, you have to move on."

Dr. Debi Silber: And yes, you do, but not before this piece, and here's why. We're doing that because we're looking for, to see what we missed. [00:34:00] How did I not see? How did I not know? What did I miss? And we're doing that because if we can figure it out, if I can figure out w- how my coworker, you know, w- was screwing me out of the promotion, if I can find out how the, my partner was stealing the company funds, if I can find out how my, my, my marriage partner, you know, the infidelity, if I can figure that out, I can prevent it from happening again.

Dr. Debi Silber: So it's so important, so important. We can't rush that. But [00:34:30] there's this, stage two is the shock, the trauma, the D-Day, discovery day. This is the scariest of all of the stages. This is where our lives just imploded, and it's the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview. So we've just ignited the stress response.

Dr. Debi Silber: We're now headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. The mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. We cannot understand what we just learned, and our worldview has just been shattered. That's our mental [00:35:00] model, the rules that govern us, that prevent chaos. Trust this person, don't go here, you know?

Dr. Debi Silber: And in one earth-shattering moment, every rule we've been following is no longer true. The bottom has bottomed out, and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. It's terrifying. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You'd grab hold of anything or anyone in order to stay safe and stay alive, and that's stage three.

Dr. Debi Silber: Survival instincts emerge. This is the most practical out of all of the stages. [00:35:30] Here's the biggest trap, though. This is the stage the majority of people get stuck in, and here's why. I believe 

Chandler Stroud: that. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Oh, you... Because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma we just came from, we think it's good, and because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we plant roots here.

Dr. Debi Silber: We park here. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that, and we create this functional life, but it's flat, and it's behind walls, and it's safe. And we look at it, saying, "You know what? I'm good. I'm good. I'll [00:36:00] keep everybody..." A- and in fact, 67% of everybody betrayed puts the big wall up. They keep out the bad ones, but they keep out the good ones, too.

Dr. Debi Silber: They're unwilling to risk that level of vulnerability because they don't wanna be hurt again. So yes, you're surviving and, and this is affecting you in business because you're not showing up the way you need to. This is affecting you in your relationships because here's where repeat betrayals happen, 'cause nothing has really changed.

Dr. Debi Silber: Or you're keeping everyone at a distance. And so we're not healed. [00:36:30] In fact, we're becoming hardened. This is where we become angry, bitter, resentful, you know? And we stay here. We can stay here for life. Here's also where we're so unhappy, but we don't know there's anything better, so now on top of that, we add numbing, avoiding, suppressing.

Dr. Debi Silber: So now we're using food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, scrolling, whatever it is, to numb, avoid, and distract. So we do it for a day, a week, a month. Now it's a habit. A year, 10 years, 20 years. I can see someone 20 years later and say, [00:37:00] "That emotional eating you're doing, you know, do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal?"

Dr. Debi Silber: They look at me like I'm crazy. Mm. Overworking, that's another one too. 

Chandler Stroud: Yeah. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Overworking, over-exercising, and now we're celebrated for it. "Oh, you're such a hard worker. Oh, look at you." And meanwhile, we're celebrated for something that we're using as a distraction- Yeah ... preventing us from healing. 

Chandler Stroud: We see this so often in the women who listen to our show, like women who also have trauma in their history, right?

Chandler Stroud: [00:37:30] It's a lot of just hypervigilance, staying active, being productive, high achieving, succeeding, people pleasing, perfectionism All those things. So what you're saying is definitely tracking. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Oh, yeah. And then, you know, and we don't know there's anything better, so we live here. Yeah. And we're numbing and suppressing the symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome.

Dr. Debi Silber: We're fi- Classic if you know you're in stage three, "I'm fine. 

Chandler Stroud: I'm fine." I'm fine. Those words. Ugh, I've been posting a lot about I'm fine [00:38:00] lately. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Fine 

Chandler Stroud: is not transformed. The most expensive words in the English language for a high-achieving woman. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Yes. 

Chandler Stroud: Costs us everything, our identities, ourselves, that conversation you should have.

Chandler Stroud: Mm-hmm. You know, the, uh, so many things. It's just... Yeah, I think that's a really important thing that you just flagged. 

Dr. Debi Silber: It's, a- and they're totally stuck. They're so much better than they were, but my gosh, you didn't go through all of that to be fine. Y- you know, you wanna use this as a launchpad to your [00:38:30] transformation.

Dr. Debi Silber: Look at the power you're giving that person, that experience, for you to go through one of the most painful of the human experiences to be fine? No, no, no, no, no. 

Chandler Stroud: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Debi Silber: You owe it to yourself to transform. So if you're willing, willingness is a big word right here, to let go of the story and all it gives you, grieve more than the loss, bunch of things you need to do.

Dr. Debi Silber: You move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. Here's where you acknowledge, uh, you know, it- it's I can't [00:39:00] control what happens, but I control what I do with it. Very forward moving. Who do I wanna be? What do I need? What have I outgrown? What was I settling for? Lots of questions.

Dr. Debi Silber: Lots of who am I now ready to become? And so it's very action-oriented in a way that we never, we may never have done before. When we've settled into this new space, we've made it sort of mentally home, we move into the fifth most beautiful stage, and this is healing, rebirth, and a new worldview. The body [00:39:30] starts to heal.

Dr. Debi Silber: Self-love, self-care, eating well, exercise. We didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now we do. The mind is healing. We're making all kinds of new rules, new boundaries based on what we just experienced. And we've a whole new worldview based on everything we see so clearly now. It is so common in stage five, new levels of health.

Dr. Debi Silber: New relationships, either with the person who hurt you in a very different way or someone entirely new. New businesses, new passion projects. Like the PBT Institute, that was a stage five thing. National [00:40:00] Forgiveness Day, that was a stage five thing. Mm-hmm. Marrying my husband again, that was a stage five thing.

Dr. Debi Silber: You don't have access to any of, of the new things when you're stuck in your trauma. 

Chandler Stroud: Which stage do you see most high-achieving women stuck in? 

Dr. Debi Silber: This has nothing to do with intelligence, and in fact, high-achieving women get stuck in stage three so often, and here's why. They're so used to using their brilliant mind.

Dr. Debi Silber: Healing from betrayal has nothing to do with your intelligence. [00:40:30] In fact, you're using the wrong tool for the job. It's like doing every home improvement with a hammer. Sometimes you need a different tool, and high achievers assume the same, the same determination using their mind that they use to do other things will help them with this, and that's not the case at all.

Dr. Debi Silber: It has nothing to do with intelligence. 

Chandler Stroud: Yeah. I'm really glad you said that. I can see how that would be a very important piece of all of this. Debbie, you didn't just heal. You built an entire institute [00:41:00] certifying professionals from your experience, which is incredible. Why, and what was the gap you were seeing in traditional therapy or trauma recovery and how your methodology is so different?

Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah, well, we're- we've actually become the world's leading organization in betrayal recovery, research, education, and transformation, and I think it's because, uh, of our methodology. You know, this is... There's a framework. There's a roadmap. You don't have to stay stuck [00:41:30] with this. Staying stuck has become a choice, and I know that's gonna hit a lot of people hard, but it's really true.

Dr. Debi Silber: And now that there's a framework and a roadmap and it works and it's proven over and over again, you know, we see it with our coaches that we, and our practitioners that we certify. And this isn't certifying people to become, let's say, betrayal recovery experts, not at all. So often it's that executive coach who's working with that high performer who's [00:42:00] stuck, but meanwhile, that stuckness is because of a betrayal.

Dr. Debi Silber: Or they need more confidence and because they're not w- or they're not hitting their numbers the way they were. Very often, there's a fear of showing up. The confidence was shattered because of that betrayal. So it, what, what we found is really hitting, uh, is that- This, these clients are coming their way anyway, but they're so much more equipped to serve and at the [00:42:30] highest level because n- they're, these clients aren't saying, "Hey, I've been betrayed.

Dr. Debi Silber: Help me with this." They're assuming if it happened 20 years ago, they're over it by now. Right. But meanwhile, that's been the block. So when they know the language, they see it, then they know how to just help them so much more effectively. 

Chandler Stroud: I also wanna make sure we touch on your new book, Unstuck. Who is this book for, and what does it offer that your earlier books did not?

Dr. Debi Silber: You know, my earlier books really, uh, they speak to the betrayed and the betrayer. I have one [00:43:00] or two out for the betrayer as well, but Unstuck is for the practitioner. Mm. I want practitioners to, to see the... As these clients are coming in, and they're, they're ending the relationship at, "I'm fine," I want them to realize, "Oh, my gosh, that's a stage three client.

Dr. Debi Silber: What am I doing?" And when they understand what post-betrayal syndrome looks like, what the symptoms that show up, it can help any coach or practitioner work so much better. Like, [00:43:30] let's say there's a, there's a health coach. We mentioned, I mentioned the gut issues, or even a digestive expert, doctor, let's just say.

Dr. Debi Silber: When they know that, yes, they're treating the symptoms someone's coming in with, but if they know there's a betrayal at the root of it, look at, look at how much, m- you know, more deeply these transformations would happen because now they're getting to the root. And it's so interesting because so- we're going into corporate, and so many people in corporate speak about stress, speak about trust, speak about psychological safety.[00:44:00] 

Dr. Debi Silber: All of the root is betrayal. So when they realize betrayal is at the root of this, get it at the root and heal your organization, heal your team. That's, I mean, that's why we're hitting this as hard as we are. 

Chandler Stroud: Love that. I love that. I can see how it would have a role in corporate, too. That's exciting that you've made those inroads.

Chandler Stroud: Debbie, if you could sit across from the version of you who had just been through those early betrayals, what would you tell her? 

Dr. Debi Silber: Hang in there, [00:44:30] kid. Uh, you know, I just, I think I would just have given myself so much more compassion, so much more love. I was all about the doing. I had, you know, just do this, do this, do this.

Dr. Debi Silber: It was, I was on such a mission, and I'm glad for it now. Uh, but I, I, I neglected the extra love, self-love I could have used. I [00:45:00] wasn't hard on myself, but I wasn't as nurturing or kind to myself as I could have been. 

Chandler Stroud: Thank you for sharing that. I think that's probably a common experience, I would imagine. Not just as it relates to betrayal, but a lot of things in life, but specifically this, I can see how that that would be a trap for a high-achieving, intelligent woman.

Dr. Debi Silber: We get so many accolades from what we do. 

Chandler Stroud: Mm. You 

Dr. Debi Silber: know, who's [00:45:30] congratulating us on, on how we're being, right? But that's one of those situations now, you know, g- past it, I look and I say, you know, I, I see it so clearly. And I will tell you, in that rebuild, everything changes. That's the opportunity here. And, and I did change that because I was so hard on myself and so critical and judgmental.

Dr. Debi Silber: Like, for example, silly example, I get lost wherever I go. It's just what happens. I know it. I just... So I would call myself names and be really harsh [00:46:00] and critical, and that was one of the things later, after the betrayal, that I decided to change. I said, "You know, I'm most likely gonna still get lost wherever I go, but I'm not gonna call myself names anymore, or I'm not gonna be, uh, say those things.

Dr. Debi Silber: From now on, everything I do like that is simply adorable." 

Chandler Stroud: I love that, Debbie. I love that. It's such a tangible example of, like, reframing these conversations that we have in our heads with ourselves. 

Dr. Debi Silber: That's 

Chandler Stroud: it. I mean, so much more compassion there. 

Dr. Debi Silber: The beauty of the [00:46:30] experience is it really, when I say everything shatters, I'm not, I'm not kidding.

Dr. Debi Silber: But it, the beauty of it is you rebuild in a way that serves you best, that highest, best version of you. Who do you wanna be now? What are you waiting for? Like, the worst just happened. Don't, don't settle for fine. Don't settle for okay. What is it you wanna do? Like, when, when I shared that experience of, of jumping in the pool with [00:47:00] my fancy dress on at my daughter's wedding, the old me wouldn't have done that.

Dr. Debi Silber: That's this version. You see? Yeah. It's deliberate. It's all intentional. It's who do I wanna be now. 

Chandler Stroud: Oh, I love it. That's such a beautiful way to wrap up our conversation, Debbie. Thank you so much for everything you shared today. It's really incredible what you're doing in the world, how you're helping people everywhere.

Chandler Stroud: So I just, I really appreciate you taking the time to be here with us, and I'm grateful for you and your [00:47:30] work. Thank you. 

Dr. Debi Silber: Thank you for the opportunity. 

Chandler Stroud: And for those listening, if this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who might find it helpful. You can also visit thehealingheroes.com to learn more and even work with me and my heroes.

Chandler Stroud: Thanks for listening, everyone, and until next time, remember, be curious, be courageous, and be kind to yourself. You've got [00:48:00] this.