Insights from the Couch - Mental Health at Midlife

Ep.21: Surviving Narcissistic Abuse Part 1

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 2 • Episode 21

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In this episode of Insights from the Couch, we dive into the complex world of narcissistic abuse with the incredible Vanessa Reiser, a licensed clinical social worker specializing in narcissistic and cult abuse. Together, we explore what it’s really like to experience this insidious form of domestic violence, how to identify narcissistic behaviors early on, and the warning signs that often go unnoticed until it’s too late. Vanessa shares her personal story of surviving narcissistic abuse, shedding light on the psychological manipulation that victims face and the steps they can take to heal and escape.

This episode is packed with insights on understanding narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), the difference between someone acting narcissistically versus having NPD, and the trauma bonds that make it so difficult for victims to break free. Whether you're dealing with a narcissist in your life or just curious about the subject, this episode will open your eyes to the tactics used by these master manipulators and the hope that lies in recovery.

 

Episode Highlights:
[3:10] - Vanessa’s personal journey: From working in the Bronx to becoming an advocate for domestic violence survivors.
[6:10] - What is narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) and how does it differ from narcissistic behavior?
[9:22] - Red flags to watch for in a relationship: Love bombing, superficial charm, and fast-moving affection.
[12:46] - How long can a narcissist hold their mask before revealing their true self?
[15:33] - The dangerous cycle of abuse and why victims struggle to leave.
[18:25] - The role of intermittent reinforcement and how victims become addicted to the narcissist’s approval.
[22:16] - The biological and psychological factors that drive narcissistic behavior.

 

Resources:

For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!

If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!

Colette Fehr:

Laura, welcome to insights from the couch. I'm here with Laura and Vanessa Reiser, and this is part one of our special double episode on narcissism. Everything you need to know how to identify it, what are the warning signs, and what do you need to do to escape and heal from a narcissist in your life. Thanks for being here. Welcome back to insights from the couch. We're so excited to have Vanessa Reiser here, licensed clinical social worker, and Vanessa has such an impressive resume, we're going to be talking about narcissism today. And I personally, even as a therapist, cannot wait to hear what you have to say as an expert in this specific niche. But Vanessa is a mother, author, entrepreneur, two time Iron Man and psychotherapist licensed in New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Florida, specializing, as I said, in narcissistic and cult abuse. She's also the founder of a teletherapist LLC, and is best known for her run across the state for New York, 285 miles in 11 days. I cannot wait to hear more about that, in a wedding dress, no less, to raise awareness for narcissistic abuse. She also subsequently ran across New Jersey, Connecticut and Massachusetts, Damn, I can't even run down the block. Her insights, both personal and professional, giving her a unique lens into this insidious form of domestic abuse. And in addition to interviews and appearances and prestigious news and media outlets like People Magazine, The New York Times, Fox News, MSN and the New York Post. Vanessa has an incredible book coming out on october 29 called narcissistic abuse, a therapist guide to identifying, escaping and healing from toxic and manipulative people. Welcome Vanessa and thanks for being here.

Laura Bowman:

We're so glad to have you.

Vanessa Reiser:

Thank you so much for having me.

Laura Bowman:

This is such a popular topic. You

Vanessa Reiser:

know, we did that run in 2021 but then we we ran across the states of New Jersey, Connecticut and Massachusetts. It's a lot shorter across those states. So I'm getting a little older, and everything's kind of crookedy. So if anybody wants to take over, by all means, I'm willing to pass the baton, but yeah, the run was really a transformative experience for me personally, and I think people were really excited to feel validated in having to deal with this insidious form of domestic violence, kind of in the shadows. A lot of people are not able to have a voice around this because of the family court system. They're sort of suffering in a vacuum. We really wanted to shine a light on this for the silent victims, so that was a big part of why that run was so important. I

Laura Bowman:

love that I'm a runner too. I'll run with you anytime. I love that awesome form of advocacy. But tell me like before you had personal experience with this, were you practicing as a therapist, like, where? What kind of work were you doing? And did this just move your your purpose? I'm assuming it did. Yeah, I

Vanessa Reiser:

was working in the Bronx at an outpatient mental health clinic, very triage style, kind of the belly of the beast. I was seeing everything in terms of trauma, children going through the foster care system. And then also was working at the high school of American Studies and the Bronx High School of Science, which are two really, really formidable institutions. They put out more Nobel Peace Prize winners you have to test into these institutions you cannot buy your way in. And so large immigrant populations, really interesting kids. You know, everyone was going to Yale Harvard and the rest and so, lots of suicidal ideation because of familial pressure, yeah, and I loved it. It was, you know, just an amazing experience. And that's a lot of what social workers do, certainly in the city of New York and the boroughs, you see a lot of trauma. You see what you need to see to sort of, you know, make changes. And that was really what was important for me. And I loved it. And then when I went through this experience myself on a personal level, I did pivot, and I did shift my attention towards mostly domestic violence now.

Colette Fehr:

So it was your own personal experience that really drew you to working with DV and specializing in narcissistic abuse.

Vanessa Reiser:

It was it changed my entire life. I really felt like I was in a cult. I was mind controlled. I was a different version of myself, and I think most people who know me would consider me to be fairly intelligent and sort of stable in my sense of self and really strong, and even I was manipulated. And so it really kind of speaks volumes, because I didn't have a lot. Of guidance as a small child, lived through a lot of adversity, and I think I was pretty I was a pretty big independent thinker, quite honestly, like, there wasn't a lot of noise that was floating around in there in terms of any sheepish, you know, following. And so I think that's probably what saved me, because I was only there for a year and a half or so a year and eight months. So I think that is what saved me. And I think a lot of people who are primed for servitude through religious environments, etc, really kind of go the long haul, stay the distance, and sacrifice, you know, decades of their life trying to forgive and give the benefit of the doubt to people who are particularly toxic. So right, while I was shocked in some ways, in retrospect and still kind of like, Am that I fell victim, I think that that's what made me turn it around and get the hell out of there was that, you know, I was able to find myself eventually, wow, yeah. I

Colette Fehr:

mean, it's so and it's so helpful for listeners to hear that even the strongest minded, most intelligent of us, this can happen to anybody. It really can. It's the nature of the beast. Yeah? I

Vanessa Reiser:

mean, when you're dealing with a master manipulator, yeah, they have been doing this for their entire lives, and so it's hard to go up against a psychopath, a sociopath or narcissist who is really adept at, you know, manipulating, playing games, confabulating, you know, shifting narratives, and so you can't it's almost like one of those things, like you don't know what you don't know what you don't know you kind of, I don't do any victim blaming. I just don't subscribe to that. I think it can happen to anybody. I'm not kidding, like that could happen to anyone.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, let's set our terms for the listener. Like, I mean, I think that's one of these cultural, like, geisty things we're in these days, is, like, everybody's a narcissist, but like, not everybody really is a narcissist. It's that's kind of its own unique thing. And I would just love for you to talk about NPD, or even, like, the trait of narcissism. Do you see it on a continuum, or is it either you are or you aren't? Like, how do you kind of conceptualize narcissism?

Vanessa Reiser:

I think people can behave narcissistically. So if I'm hungry and I need a Snickers bar, you know, kind of like, the little horns so like, Oh, I'm gonna maybe not be the best version of myself, or if I'm PMSing, or if I'm tired, sleep deprived, whatever biological variables are at play. Might could make me act like, narcissistically, like I might just be a jerk, or, you know, unkind, but somebody who has sort of a corrupt brain and is suffering from NPD has this pervasively. It's something that is always their go to this is their kind of like baseline is to sort of create problems for sport. Why? Because they're looking for coveted attention. They want attention. They are addicted to the dopamine that they get from that attention. Because they are perpetually bored. Their baseline is lower, so they're kind of pulling people down to make themselves feel relevant or better. And I would say that one of the prime characteristics for someone with NPD is addiction. They are addicted to attention. And while they may have comorbidities like addicted to drugs, sex, food, video games, alcohol, etc, they are all addicted to attention. Do they get that from sex? Yes. Do they get that from being antagonistic and getting negative attention from you. Yes, they don't discriminate. They just need, like, feed me, feed me, feed me, supply I need attention. So first and foremost, they are all addicts by design. All narcissists are addicts. Not all addicts are narcissists. I

Colette Fehr:

don't think I've ever heard that. No, me neither. It's fascinating. They're addicted to it. And then, of course, what you're saying is that it's pervasive to personality. It's not behaving narcissistically in given moments. This is the baseline for people like this. And you know it, I would imagine that it's difficult to spot initially, but what are some of the early warning signs that people can look for somebody

Vanessa Reiser:

who's fast moving if you're dealing with an intimate partner scenario. This is somebody who sort of swoops in with lots of loving text messages, you are my soulmate. This is the love bombing phase where they've never met anyone like you. You know, let's get married, let's have children. You know, you're the greatest thing since sliced bread and kind of over the top gestures gifts. That's obviously a huge red flag. If someone is particularly fast moving, another red flag would be superficial charm. Oftentimes, these are people who are really adept at. At that persona that they've created. So these are a lot of times, you know, poets, priests and politicians, they're really, really good at kissing babies whilst stabbing you in the back. So that duplicitousness is there, but in the first place you're not going to know, you know, these are your really, really charming neighbors with the perfect lawn that you think that's on a psychopath that lives there. You think the psychopath lives in that house with the overgrown grass, you know, because we sort of think monsters are going to look a certain way, but superficial charm is a huge red flag. So if somebody you know, kind of presents as absolutely one zillion percent put together. You could smell the Cologne coming from a mile away. And, you know, everything is kind of buttoned up. You know, be on alert, because superficial charm is a huge red flag. This

Colette Fehr:

is already freaking me out. Vanessa,

Laura Bowman:

it's so creepy. It's so creepy.

Vanessa Reiser:

My work is so dark. I know, no,

Colette Fehr:

no, no. It's because I've been in too many of these relationships. You know, it's familiar. It's familiar. That's why I'm memories, yeah, yeah. But go on, I'm sorry I interrupted, and thank you for saying that.

Vanessa Reiser:

Because, no, that's really important. Because people who know me from social media or other places, they may think that, you know, I only had one rodeo, and that is not the case. To your point, I have been involved and bumped up against these fools in different in different capacities over my lifetime, believe me, me too. It wasn't one rodeo. It wasn't two I mean, it was a bunch of people that I have bumped up against, and thank God I got out okay, because there were some stories, you know, that were really scary. So thank you for saying that. Because it wasn't like, I met one and it was, it wasn't right in my rear view. I was like, Oh my God. There. Was like, Oh, I remember this one and this one

Colette Fehr:

and this one, yes, this is what I'm thinking listening to. I'm like, Oh my God. And, you know, it makes sense. I'm so glad you said these are monsters who don't look like monsters. These are people who are charming and they give you attention and they have impressive jobs. They're intelligent. It's so seductive. This comes in a seductive, enticing package, right? Yeah,

Vanessa Reiser:

it does. It does. And I ended up having, you know, great love affairs with really decent men too, it should be stated. And my son is a really good man. And, you know, there are people around me that I have dated in the past that I'm still really good friends with. This isn't sort of something that I'm on a crusade to, like, you know, bash men or anything like that. It's just, you know, in hindsight, there were a few, there were just a few, but, you know, I was able to now see it differently. So

Laura Bowman:

take us into like, what you call like, these circulations like, so the narcissist comes on, like, strong and charming, and you're like, Oh my God. I found like, the best guy ever. He's amazing. And then when does what's the first chink in the armor where you're like whoa, and how long can a narcissist sort of hold it together before the mask starts to slip?

Vanessa Reiser:

Yeah, I think the average is between four to eight months they will begin to reveal certain things. And that's very purposeful, because what they're doing in that in those moments are they're going to show you a little piece of what they're capable of in an effort to gage your ability to endure. So they're doing this on purpose. They're going to sort of let the mask slip a little bit, give you a little bit of a pang of what the punishments might look like in terms of passive aggressive behavior or silent treatment, or it could be overt abuse, quite honestly, it could be a physical assault. But they're going to give you a little bit of a something, and they're going to sit back and watch to see, what can you endure? What are you capable and then with the next time that they do it, they sort of turn up this dial until before you know it, you're really, really sort of spiraling in that environment. So they they're gaging and turning up the dial the entire time, but it's between four and eight months, I would say, on average, where they're going to give you a little reveal to see what you'll you have the capacity to deal with.

Colette Fehr:

Can you give an example of what something like that might look like, like? What that little Gage? Can you think of something that you know, just grounds it in the concrete a little? Yeah,

Vanessa Reiser:

they might disappear for a good amount of time to give you the silent treatment, to see, you know how you handle that, if you come, you know, looking for them, that sort of checks the box of giving them attention if they say a snide or snarky comment about your appearance or your devalued in somewhere way where they make you feel less than maybe there's an insult in there, and they're going to see what you're going to be able to manage, and the more you do, the more they're going to do that. It's that's why. It's a relationship of inevitable harm. You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't, no matter what, they're going to continue to up the ante, up the stakes, and turn up that dial. And so you essentially just lose your entire sense of self. And it's really hard to extricate yourself from these environments, particularly if you are co parenting with the narcissist eventually, because they are going to exploit your children as a way to harm you, just for sport. Ultimately, the stakes just seem to get higher and higher higher for people, and it's very hard to get out.

Laura Bowman:

I'm thinking about like the victim, and I'm thinking about women in general, like when they're in a relationship, it's the masters to slip. What are a lot of victims telling themselves? I mean, what's the psychology, the Compassionate view of a person like this, where they're like, well, he's just avoidant, or he's just been hurt. I mean, what? What are the stories women begin to tell themselves that just keeps them stuck?

Vanessa Reiser:

Yeah, there's a lot of giving the benefit of the doubt. Yeah. Dr brahminy talks about this quite a bit. And if God gives you a resume, check the references, because we're not giving the benefit of the doubt anymore as days are over, that gets us into really, really dangerous situations. You have to kind of really do your work, do your background, check up on people, make sure they are who they say they are. Don't, don't assume that this person you know who's telling you that they're an attorney is even an attorney. I mean, I can't tell you how many times people have told me that they've been dealing with full on Grifters, people who just lie. Because basically what you're saying to yourself is, why would anybody lie about going to Columbia Law, right? Nobody would ever be that bold. Oh yeah, they would, yeah. Oh yeah, they would. So you really can't the benefit of the doubt is something that we all sort of do. I think women do this a lot because we're sort of told, you know, be kind, Don't be a bitch. Everyone's afraid to be a bitch. You don't want to push back. Let me tell you, being a bitch is what saved me. And so I counsel people all the time on sort of, you know, standing up and stepping into their power, this idea that you are going to be like a bitch or be an awful person because you are having boundaries and studying others to protect yourself, no way. And Dr romini and I have talked about that also at length, which is basically, you know, if you get out of these relationships with anything, it really is this idea that you can trust yourself once you get out. I mean, you have to trust yourself. You can't anymore, you know, give the benefit of the doubt or second guess yourself. But I think that's what happens in the very first place. To your point, it's like, you know, you really are coming from an empathetic place, and you're thinking people are generally, you know, similarly brained, and they're not out to hurt you. Why would you ever imagine that? Right? Like, that's not something we ever, you know, teach our kids generally. It's like, okay, well, there's evil people all around you. Because why would you tell your children that's so scary? You know, we sort of teach our children things like Sesame Street and be empathetic and care for your neighbors and other people. And that is is not the case with a lot of people. Unfortunately, there are a lot of dark and dangerous people, so we probably will have to start to open up a dialog with our young people around you know what this is and how people can potentially be not so good or maybe different, right? Because

Colette Fehr:

I think back in the day, I didn't hear anything about this, and of course, now it's everywhere in social media, but I know for me, and I'm curious if this is something you've seen, or you experienced, part of the hook when I've been involved with narcissists has been the intermittent reinforcement nature of, you know, the famous bird box experiment was that when birds got food consistently, you know, they learned when to eat. When they got food intermittently, They pecked themselves into a frenzy and went mad. So if somebody is giving you attention, or what feels like love, you start to try to figure out, well, what do I do, and how do I get that consistently? And you don't get it consistently, so you can make yourself crazy and take that as a reflection of you and your lack of worth, rather than what it is the manipulative nature of someone who's trying to hook you. Is that something you also see kind of across the board, or commonly, absolutely,

Vanessa Reiser:

it is highly Pavlovian. It is extremely built in reinforcers. And one of the things that's really interesting is the negative reinforcer. So if you are being love bombed, and all they do is kind of stop the love bombing, even that feels destabilizing, you'll be right. What did I do wrong? You were so gracious yesterday, and you were so there's a lot of nuance in terms of what the reinforcers are once they. Kind of cut out the silent treatment, and they just appear after many days, even that feels like a breadcrumb of like the highest order. It's like, Oh, thank God, you know, because what happens is, in the cycle of abuse, you become addicted to the fix of the makeup session or things being okay. So they are addicted to the dopamine they get from supply, and then subsequently you become addicted to the fix in the cycle of abuse, and that develops into a trauma bond where you're looking for that fix. Make it okay again. Make it okay again. Make it okay again. But yes, that is all built in reinforcers. It's an age old thing that cult leaders have used forever in terms of mind control, and it works the reinforcers are really what they're really adept at, sort of procuring and managing, not just with you, but probably with subordinates, family members. That's why it feels very much like a playbook for people. They're like, are they having a meeting every month? Because they have figured out these manipulative tactics work, and so they are rather Pavlovian. You know, Pavlov's dog with the reinforcer. So this is something that is that they they figure out. Do I know they understand Pavlov now, but I think they figure out from an early age. What works? Yeah, that's why I think it's a biological issue. Less about nurture. I think it's more of a nature issue. I think they start developing these skills at very young ages. We see this with Oppositional Defiant Disorder in youth, in terms of, you know, harming animals or setting fires, they're kind of watching and learning how to manipulate, in my opinion, from a very young age. Yeah, that's

Laura Bowman:

so interesting that you see it as like a because I've heard so much of it being like ascribed to certain types of parenting. But it doesn't feel totally right at all. You're more right, like is that it does feel like a way of being that they like figure out from an early age, gets them something. So it's not entirely conscious. Or do you believe that it is conscious? It's just sort of they're wiring

Colette Fehr:

or biologically hardwired? Yeah,

Vanessa Reiser:

I think some parts of it are conscious, but I think because they've been doing it for so long. By and large, it is habitual, and this also coupled with the confabulation so there are, they are lying so frequently, and they are so dizzy from their own lies that they just fill in the blanks as they go along and kind of worry about it later. The other half is they figured out that it works rather well. These are people that are in C suites. They are CEOs. I think one in four CEOs is a psychopath directly. They really figure out over time that it absolutely works, and so they're not as worried about it over time. They're like, you know, I'll just, I'll just get an attorney to take care of this. Or they kind of just, sort of like, go up against what, you know, we would think would be the law, and they're kind of not in that realm. They're sometimes involved in, you know, high criminality, and they don't care, because they they know that it works. The idea is that they figured out whatever they're doing it's working, so just keep doing that until it's not working, and sometimes they do get in trouble. That's the greatest thing that we see. The only time I ever see narcissists, sociopaths or psychopaths ever really meet justice, though, unfortunately, and this is, like my whole crusade that I'm on, is that it's in the environment of a cult. And why do I think that is? Is because they're outnumbered. The cult members sort of rise up against the cult leader, and I think it's a numbers game. When you see this in intimate relationships, in the Family Court, the victim generally loses because they're not sort of locking arms with other victims. And so I'm on this crusade to scream from the mountains that people need to start locking arms with the former supplies, the ex wives, the ex girlfriends, the prostitutes, whatever, and start to sort of sound the alarm in numbers. Because that's the only time we saw that with the Nexium cult. We saw it with the stolen youth cult. We see justice only in those environments where people are going together up against an abuser. Unfortunately, nobody listens to one person, certainly not one woman. And that's kind of what I'm noticing. Is really a trend, and I hope that people will begin to open up to the former supplies and start to because I think the biggest part of this, I'm sorry, I'm just on a tie radio, the biggest part of it is that my clients come to me and the biggest pain they have is the justice piece. They're they're every single one of those. Why do they get away with this? It's not fair. You know, this sort of like, oh, like, Why is no one protecting me? The systems that are put in place are not protecting me. I had a very. Terrible Family Court experience, even though I was, I'm not co parenting with a narcissist, and I had a really terrible experience with the domestic violence center where I sat on the board. These were, these are communities that are supposed to provide support and help, and they don't. And I think the injustice piece is the biggest horror for all of my clients. Yeah,

Colette Fehr:

I really relate to that. I really relate to that. I know my own experience in court, with someone like this or not in court, but going through legal proceedings is that the manipulations, the lies, everything was believed, everything seems so legitimate, and you feel crazy. You feel crazy. You're made to think you are crazy. You're painted as the hysterical, histrionic female, and it's mind boggling. And then, of course, you become more upset as this happens. And when kids are involved, it's particularly painful and scary. And a lot of times, these people have all the power and society just backs them kind of automatically.

Vanessa Reiser:

That's a big piece. And I think what we need to start doing is giving women, specifically in domestic violence scenarios, permission to find the other supply, find the other women, and get some validation there and be open to others coming to you, because that's, I think, where we're going to see change this idea that the powers that be will, like, perpetuate a narrative that like, Oh, you're you're crazy. Why would you reach out to the other acts? I just say, because I wanted to, because I wanted to

Laura Bowman:

learn about what they need a witness, right? Yes, they make it

Vanessa Reiser:

like, Oh, so you're obsessed. You went and found the other No, that's not what it is, right, right? I'm obsessed with my healing. Yeah, exactly. So

Laura Bowman:

talk a little bit, I kind of know the answer, but I just want to hear you say, like, do narcissists ever heal themselves? Or is this just not is this something a strategy they just roll on into the next relationship, into the next business deal, and this, this strategy never really hits a wall and heals? Or is it like a very small percentage? We don't

Vanessa Reiser:

have any data that says that they change mostly because they like the way they are. They consider themselves to be winning in some ways. So they're always in this game. They're playing a game. It's a sport, and they think they're winning or they're looking to win. And so that, coupled with the fact that I do believe it's biological, in terms of the lack of empathy and the brain being corrupt and being sort of broken, there's not a lot of neuroplasticity in these people. There's it's a rigid disorder, and that's why you see them sort of copy and paste, doing the same behaviors over and over and over again, not that it's the same, but because we are clinicians, it's not that it's the same, but there's a parallel that I'm able to see in terms of autism spectrum disorder, in that there's some movement in terms of, you know, they're they're changing, but by and large, the behaviors seem to be rather rigid. And that's something that I I liken it to in that regard, not that I'm saying that there's a saying I'm saying in that regard, in terms of the rigidity. So I don't think that there's a lot of hope that they'll change. I mean, the best case scenario for mankind is that somebody comes out and develops a drug that sort of somehow cultivates empathy, because empathy is ground zero for the narcissist. Listen, we are, you know, very green in this realm. And so it's very possible that a drug could be developed that, you know, makes empathy happen. Who am I to say? I'm not a, you know, scientist, and I'm certainly not working on brains, but that's what I think is happening. And until that occurs, we sort of have a big problem, because if someone who is like this gets into a position of power, like we saw with Hitler, it becomes really dangerous, because they are going to toy with the masses, literally for sport. I mean, this is just fun and games for them. They're not inclined to have any understanding of what it feels like to be put in a gas chamber. And they this is just a game, the same way they might play Monopoly. So that's really dangerous for mankind if we don't start to have really important conversations about what happens when people with this disorder get into positions of power. What could happen to people at the hands of someone like that? Yeah,

Colette Fehr:

and what has happened?

Laura Bowman:

Wow. And I'm assuming a narcissist wouldn't even take that medication because it's like empathy isn't interesting to them, right,

Vanessa Reiser:

right? You're absolutely right. It would have to be mandated, which is a whole other side conversation that's absolutely true too, right, right, right? I.