Insights from the Couch - Mental Health at Midlife

Ep.33: Living an Intentional Life with Cait Flanders

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 3 • Episode 33

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Today we sit down with the incredible Cait Flanders to explore what it really means to live an intentional life. Cait, author of The Year of Less and Adventures in Opting Out, shares her journey of opting out of societal norms, creating life on her own terms, and learning how to navigate her way through sobriety, minimalism, and self-compassion. Cait opens up about her decision to quit drinking, her shopping ban that led to a massive decluttering of her life—both physically and emotionally—and the tough but necessary journey of finding clarity through less. This is an episode about finding peace in simplicity, courage in self-awareness, and learning how to let go of what no longer serves us.

 

Episode Highlights:
[02:27] - Letting go of relationships and finding peace with personal boundaries.[06:12] - Societal pressure and opting out of the social “noise”.
[06:30] - Welcoming Cait as she joins us to share her story firsthand.
[07:55] - Cait’s shopping ban: how decluttering and minimalism started her journey.
[11:34] - Evolving from financial goals to a deeper emotional transformation.
[15:37] - Navigating sobriety and finding healthy coping mechanisms.
[18:26] - Facing raw emotions during the year of less and embracing vulnerability.
[24:15] - Cait’s dad on sobriety: “It’s so much better on this side”.
[26:35] - Self-compassion and letting go of shame for past choices.
[31:20] - Cultivating resilience and self-trust through intentional change.
[35:49] - Embracing emotional growth and self-connection to enrich relationships.

 

Connect with Cait Flanders:

 

For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!

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Laura Bowman:

Kate, welcome back to insights from the couch. Today we're going to talk to Kate Flanders, who is this really cool young writer who wrote the book The Year of less and adventures and opting out a field guide to leading an intentional life. This is a woman who has sidestepped culture all over the place on her own terms. She stopped drinking. She's been sober for, I think, seven plus years. She did an entire experiment with a shopping ban where she just didn't shop for a year and got rid of a lot of the extraneous crap in her house and worked on her own terms as a self supporting writer, and from there, has done multiple solo travel trips and has lived abroad for, I think, well, over a year now. So she's going to be popping on at some point, but

Colette Fehr:

so cool. I can't wait to talk to her. First of all, I'm jealous in like, a healthy way. I don't begrudge her. I just sort of wish I had that life. But I really love this topic, because we're talking about creating, cultivating an intentional life on your own terms, according to your values, and that'll look different to everybody, but I love the idea of weeding out, or, as she says, opting out and getting rid of what's extraneous, both the material and physical the emotional, so that you're really homing down on, like, what you want. So we were just chatting before we started recording on like, how when you do this, you lose people along the way.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, when you live in accordance with your values, certain relationships will fall away. And you know, I was talking about in my own life that I have a really close family member who I always thought I would be super close with and and I do not have this person in my life anymore. It's my brother, and I was grew up so close with him, but I was telling Colette like just to be in relationship with him is a real compromising of my own values, and it's just too hard. So you have to be okay with losses along the way, even though you're really not okay with them, you wouldn't choose them.

Colette Fehr:

You miss that person, and you there's grief for that loss. But at the same time, your relationship with yourself matters more, and if somebody makes you compromise or abandon yourself in order to be in a relationship with them, you get to a point where you're not willing to do that anymore, amen. So part of the opting out is people, right? Is people, and I've seen other friends have to go through letting go friendships. It can be quite excruciatingly painful, but what that point is is where it's more painful to compromise yourself and choosing ourselves can be really hard. It can be and especially if you have a history of being a people pleaser. I can't even say it makes me sick actually. Yeah, I do too, but I was a massive people pleaser, and still consider myself one in recovery. But I haven't lost family members. I have lost friends or let go of friends. Maybe it just happened sort of naturally in some cases, and in other cases, there's been a hard stop. And then, Laura, you were saying to me when we decided to just hop on and get started. I love the term you use that I live this sort of monk like existence, which I feel like anyone who knows me will find very hard to believe, yes, but tell me your perspective on that, because I'm curious how you saw me during that time, or what you saw

Laura Bowman:

you never surprised. Like I've never ceased to be amazed by you. Because, like, as soon as somebody thinks they have your personality nailed. You always, like, you always have a twist. So I guess I wasn't surprised to see you. I mean, I think what were you like, coloring your own hair and kind of like you did, like, no nails, and you were like, walking, ever, running every day and working out, and you were like, no out drinking, yeah, like, which, I mean, I didn't drink for a year, and you were super comfortable in that choice, like I was. It didn't bother it didn't seem to bother you at all, to just choose yourself there. And you told me there were certain people you hadn't seen or weren't connected with, and you were kind of okay with it, yeah, I thought it was a very productive time for you.

Colette Fehr:

I know, as you say it, I'm like, God, I kind of missed that time. No, I have to say it was also during COVID, yeah, you know, I think I used COVID as like a cocooning because I thought, you know, not really going anywhere, at least for. A little while and seeing anyone, that's when I went back to being brunette, which I decided isn't really great for me the way I look, but it saved me money and time. And you're right, my life got smaller. I think. What was good about it, I wasn't spending money. I wasn't drinking. It was a quieter time. I'm normally pretty social. I didn't do much socially, but I felt very connected to myself, to my values, and I was really at peace. You know, maybe

Laura Bowman:

I'm not fully neurotypical, I don't know, but I just I it's hard on me, so I the way you're describing life is like the way I choose to live. I would choose to live all the time, although there's always a tension of like, are you not engaged enough?

Colette Fehr:

Are you not in the world enough? And so that that's my own conversation that I have with myself. I really wonder for our listeners, how many of you guys feel pressure to be out in the world and on and socializing, or more people at this age, they have, they already opted out of that, and they're just kind of quiet at home, doing their own thing.

Laura Bowman:

Let's be honest. I think there's just a push, if you know, to be relevant, to not miss out even, you know, I even have that voice and yeah, a little FOMO of like, oh, I guess everybody's sort of doing stuff. Why aren't I there? Even if you don't really want to be there, here she

Cait Flanders:

is. Yay, hi, yeah, yeah. So

Colette Fehr:

we're gonna just jump right in, because we already started chatting. Laura, I'll let you kind of take it away from here. And Kate, we're so excited to have you here. You're a beautiful writer, and you have a wonderful message to share with our listeners. Thank

Laura Bowman:

you so much. Yes, I read your books. I'm almost through your second book, which is adventures and opting out, but I read the year of last in like, a day, and I was just, I was so, like, moved and inspired. First of all, it's like, completely in my language of I'm always talking to Colette about, like, the need to, like, really sidestep the current of culture. Like, I feel like it's a very fast moving current, and it will swallow you if you don't make some really intentional choices about where you want to put yourself, but I'm also just for, like, personal disclosure, a little bit of, like, a just right OCD type. So, like, the whole idea of getting rid of things really appeals to me. Like, that's my safe space. Like, when life gets really overwhelming, I'll just start throwing things out and cleaning my house. So I was like, Yes, I want to live in this simple, intentional space. Will you tell our listeners, like, what was happening in your life that began the book, the year of last and what you did with that book? Yeah.

Cait Flanders:

Okay, so gosh, at the beginning, it's so interesting to be reflecting on this now, because it's been 10 years since I did that, which is always just interesting, because, like, the book, someone reads it for the first time, it's new to them, and you're like, I did that experience. Like I started it in July of 2014

Laura Bowman:

How old were you then? By the way, 29

Cait Flanders:

like, I was a baby. I'm

Laura Bowman:

so impressed at how young you were at, like, tackling these things. Yeah, I was a baby.

Cait Flanders:

You know, one of the things that was true was that, unfortunately, for a bunch of different reasons, I had had to move, I think it was five times. And in moving so many times, I mean, I You can't help but notice the fact that you're basically just moving things, like from closet to closet. You know, you're not even unpacking so much stuff. There's so many boxes of things that you just seem to own and keep in storage, but like, you never actually use them. And I think if you just lived in one place for a long time, it's easy to kind of ignore that, or just feel like that's kind of like, for lack of better terms, quote, unquote, normal, like it's just a thing you do. You know, you just keep some stuff in storage. But I think when you move it so many times, you really start to see, I don't even know what some of this stuff is. Like, I don't even know what's in some of these boxes. Yeah, and I keep paying, I mean, I was doing the moving, but you're still paying to, like, rent a moving truck, to, like, move things around. And I'm like, What even is all of this stuff? I think, like, there was also probably just regular kind of life, stress, work stress, like there were some different things happening. The moves were a big part of it. And then the other thing that was true is that a big part of the decision at first was actually financial. And it was that, like, at the time I was writing a personal finance blog, and on the blog, I would share my budgets. So I would share them at the start of the month, like, what I kind of thought my numbers would look like, and then I would share an updated budget at the end, and I would, I would say, like, you know, I'm gonna save 20% of my income. And actually that that should have been doable for sort of the amount I was earning where I was living. Saying, like, I it should have been doable, but at the end of every single month, I would write, like, basically all the reasons why I couldn't hit that and why I was only saving, like, Max, like, you know, five, 810, like, sometimes I get 10 or so percent, but like, it wasn't very much. And I I did that for 12 months in a row. And when you are documenting things and sharing it for like, you start to notice, hey, like things about like, what am I writing every single month? Like, what is this thing that I'm sharing every single month? They're not excuses. But like, your reasoning, your thoughts, like that, you see the pattern, right? And so, like, once you see the pattern, you're like, something isn't right here, like something doesn't feel quite right here, like, actually this. Like, saving more should be doable. I should be able to do this. So I think I'm going to try something different. So at first it was strictly financial. And the thought was it actually had nothing to do with stuff. At first it was like, I'm just going to try to not shop, like, I'm gonna try to not buy new things and see if that helps me save. So it started, like, purely financial, and then sort of, I don't know, I got, like, the idea to declutter, I think, from all the moves, and then that just kind of spiraled into something totally different.

Colette Fehr:

What did it spiral into? Like, tell us about that part, because this is such a bold, brave thing to do at 20. I mean, at any age, but particularly so young. So how did it evolve and what motivated you to turn it into something deeper?

Cait Flanders:

My first thought was like, you know, yeah, I'll do a little Declutter. But I didn't really know what that meant. And this was like, I think it was actually maybe four or five months, like, before Marie Kondos books had come to North America. I feel like they came out, like october 2014 and so I started this just a few months so it's like I wasn't following sort of anyone's guidance. And it's very obvious, like, when I tell you, what I did was basically, like, room by room, I would empty the drawers or the closet or whatever onto the floor, and I made a huge mess, and then I had to clean it up. So, like, I don't think, I don't know if there's a lot of decluttering experts that say, like, that's what maybe they do. I don't, I don't really know, but

Colette Fehr:

I like it. I think it's a great

Laura Bowman:

strategy forces you to, I mean,

Cait Flanders:

for some people, it could be that could be just really overwhelming, and just leave a lot of mess, right? But, yeah, I was motivated by it. So when I would see the mess, like I was someone who I wanted and cleaned up, and I don't know, I was just like, ruthless, like, I I started room by room and, like, it was kind of like, oh, like, the kitchen, there weren't that that many things. Like, actually, that was a pretty practical room. You know, I didn't have a lot of extra. But then it was things like, like clothes. Like, there were so many items of clothing that I held on to, but I never wore. And there's so many stories I realized that I was telling myself about why I was holding on to everything, or, like, what when I'll wear it one day? Or, like, this dress I used to love, and it fit me so well, like, all you know, it'll fit well again one day, or something, like, it was all kinds of things. And eventually, like, I just got really, really serious with myself, and was like, no, like, it was, it was kind of cutthroat, like it, but it was very like, Have I used this? Am I actually going to use this? Like, if the answer was no, it got bagged up and was donated. So I think, like, you know, I thought I'll just declutter, but in the first month, if I remember correctly, I like, I donated something like 43% of my belongings and and so I think, like, looking at a number like that, and even just like, how many times I, like, literally filled my car from, like, the floor to ceiling, all, all square inches that you could find. Like, I think when you see that, you're like, oh, something's happening here. Actually, this is and it's only one month, and I'm like, I'm gonna do this for a year. Of like, what? What is happening here? Did

Laura Bowman:

you miss any of those items? If we're being absolutely none, to be honest,

Cait Flanders:

I I don't remember so much of whatever I got rid of, I hold on to, like, not very much. I have, like, one box left at my dad's house, but it's just one of those, like, kind of a U haul, small size. So, like, it's not very big. And that's like, sentimental things. So like, photos, my high school yearbooks, like, I didn't get rid of things like that. Like, I literally was just getting rid of the things I'm never gonna wear it. I've never used this. Like, why do I ask this? Why do I Yeah, but no, I've never missed anything. I remember too. Like, I didn't do it then, but it's something I've done, like, over the years, is I've gotten rid of journals that I used to write in, and I remember a friend being like, Oh, you're, you're gonna regret that. Don't do that. And I'm like, I've never even regretted that. Yeah, because when I looked at them, they made me feel anxious, and I like, felt sad for my younger self. I'm like, I don't, I don't mean this, like nobody. So I discovered I and I've never regretted it.

Laura Bowman:

So one of the things, like Colette and I talk about and we did it in a. Other episode is, I think it was like a Phil Stutz thing, where he says that one of the strat one of the things we do in life is we rely on all of these like low level things like consuming food or shopping or alcohol. And I know you have your own relationship with sobriety, and we do that to sort of cut the emotional tension in our lives all the time. You know, we're wicking away all the stress from daily life, and so when you start peeling back these coping mechanisms, like, what was that like to not rely on shopping or alcohol? Yeah.

Cait Flanders:

So in that sense, it probably makes like to talk about the sobriety aspect first, because I stopped drinking before this. So actually, it's almost like I'd sort of been on this journey that I didn't even really understand until the shopping ban. But I think, like over the years, I had slowly been getting rid of those things, and even earlier than that, like, the reason I started writing about personal finance was I was documenting paying off a bunch of debt, and so it was like I was debt free. So that that kind of changed, you know, some of my relationship with money, then I well, actually, I guess I stopped. I, like, recreationally used, like, certain drugs when I was younger. I stopped doing that when I was, like, 25 I think it's been like a so long, like 25 and then I stopped drinking when I was 27 and so I do think, above all else, like living a sober life has changed me more than anything. Like there are obviously other things that you can numb yourself with, but I think, like alcohol, if you're drinking the way that I was, is, like, very quickly leads into just a dissociation, right? Like it was to be completely disconnected, like, from my body and what was true for me. So I think, like that has changed me, above all else. Then, yeah, my spending probably did pick up a little bit, so I wasn't going back into debt. But there were probably more, I'd say, like emotional purchases, like, I didn't actually identify with, like, retail therapy. From this the angle, I guess, of like treating myself like, I don't think treating myself has ever been something I've really done. I was more the kind of person who, like, if I was having a hard time bad day, would, yeah, buy myself the thing or and kind of impulsively buy the thing, just, yeah, it's almost

Colette Fehr:

like a pick me up little pick me up exactly. It's a little hit of dopamine. So I think I did like more

Cait Flanders:

of that. And then, yeah, the shopping ban obviously forced me to recognize that I couldn't do that anymore. And so it's interesting, because, like, one of the questions I've been asked before is like, okay, like, okay, like, you know, if you can't drink, if you can't shop, like, what do you do? And I'm like, I cried a lot that year. Like, I actually think the year of less or, like, that year was one of the hardest years that I've emotionally ever gone through. And that's, you know, there's more that I know about myself even now. Like, because I hadn't even done any therapy at that point, now I have. So there's, like, a lot more I understand about myself now, but it's like I just had to feel my feelings, and some of them were really, really hard, and I had no strategy. So it was just like, I have to be sad. There was a lot more self soothing. There was a lot more call a friend or just like, have a hot bath or cry in bed like you just yeah, get it out emotionally.

Colette Fehr:

So when you let go of alcohol and shopping things that you were doing, not so much as a treat, but kind of a coping mechanism, not to feel feelings, then all the feelings are there, and you have to sit with yourself. And so all that stored up unprocessed emotion then comes to the surface for you, and you find yourself crying and feeling, and you know, maybe in that really engaged way, for the first time, without any true escapes, or at least the escapes that you were accustomed to. But it sounds like even though it was a very intense year, it led to a true metamorphosis and a beginning of really knowing and understanding yourself. Did you find that that was the pivotal time that you really met yourself for the first time? Yeah,

Cait Flanders:

I do think so. I also really like that you use the word beginning, because, like, it does sort of feel like the beginning, right? Like it was a challenge, an experiment that I just did for myself, and I learned some things. But yeah, I think, like it was the beginning. I think especially if we, if we just kind of used it from the angle, or the aspect of the fact, like I had to feel my feelings for the first time. Like, truly, right? That was just the beginning of that. And I honestly think, like, this is still, like, probably a lifelong journey for me, of like, how do you actually understand yourself and let yourself feel things, validate yourself, validate the feelings that you're having, but something I did not know. About myself at 29 is that I could probably have complex PTSD and so like, that's something I've only really understood for the last couple of years. And they're like it. It opens my eyes up so much to like various things that I've done in life. I do think it was just the beginning. Yeah, and

Colette Fehr:

you're now, what, almost 40 Yeah, 39 so you're in a very different phase of life and space in life, and maybe just now, understanding that you probably have complex PTSD and everything is a lifelong journey to work through, right including that. What would you tell listeners, if you know, if it were like imagine it was your best friend looking to you for advice. What would you say that you've learned that you would want somebody else to maybe consider for their own life?

Cait Flanders:

I mean, I do think a big one, and probably the thing I will have to work on for my whole life is to not feel ashamed of things I've done, or, you know, money I've spent, or just decisions that I've made, because there's so much stuff that we we don't understand about ourselves and and the reasons behind why we do things, I then think it's like An interesting journey when you start to figure out maybe some of the whys that can lead to a whole bunch of new emotions. Like, maybe you're angry, or maybe, like, there's all kinds of stuff you kind of have to then reckon with once you start to understand some of the reasons behind, like, why you are the way you are. But like, shame has to be taken out of it. I like that you use the word compassion there, I feel like self compassion and trying to reduce shame, they will be the skills of my life that I yeah, like, because I just think that that is what keeps us trapped. It's what keeps us from taking action, action, not meaning, like, you know, I don't know, kind of intense, like, productivity type things. Just like, yeah, taking some kind of action towards changing your life. I also like, this is something that came up more in adventures than it did in the year of loss. But I think a big thing that I still have to remind myself of is that if someone is wanting to change your life. That does mean your life is going to change. And that that that might sound like a really silly thing to say, but I don't think that people really grapple with that enough. And I think because, you know, you make a change, and all kinds of things change, it's not just, Oh, I've changed this habit. It's like that could change how you show up, then how other people relate to you. It could change your relationships. It could change, you know, all kinds of things. And I also think it's probably one of the reasons we don't change is because it does have a ripple effect, and so many other areas of your life will be touched on, or, like, impacted. And that's that's hard, but it's like, I think if we don't tell each other that, then we're not It's not like a warning, but like we're doing a disservice by not talking about the fact that it will be all encompassing. You can just say, like, I would like to stop, you know, doing this coping mechanism, or I would like to stop dissociating and being a be a person who feels her feelings and has, you know, hard conversations and stuff like that. It's like, well, that has a big impact on your life. It sure does, yeah, and that's the way that I live now, and the relationships I have now, all of it is so much healthier than anything I've experienced before. And like, is completely out of the realm of what I ever thought was possible. Like, you know, thinking about friendships or, like, romantic partnership, like, the connections I have now are so different than anything I could have even imagined

Laura Bowman:

I love, that you say that because, like, what, before you got on the call we were talking about, you do lose people. You will lose people. And that's the thing that I think people stay stuck around is like, well, if I don't go out and drink with these people, I'm not going to have any friends. But what I'm hearing you say is that on the other side of that is really good stuff, if you can, like, stay the course.

Cait Flanders:

That's something my dad always says. My dad is someone who's sober as well. And I mean, he's been sober like forever at this point. Yeah, my dad is someone who's sober, and I remember him saying to me, it's so much better on this side. Like it can take a long time to feel that, or to, like, really understand what that means for you, you know, but it's like after years of making these decisions that are right for you, like you know you, not only you learn so much about your own values, like what's important to you, like you know, boundaries you might have that could be totally different, but also will create really healthy relationships to come in

Colette Fehr:

that is lifelong work. Right to constantly meet yourself, be with yourself, validate, offer yourself compassion and grace. And I particularly love what you're saying about letting go of shame for our younger selves, because that really keeps us stuck. If we can look back on mistakes we made and there might be regret. I really like to tease that part. I don't think that you celebrate every single decision you made. I mean, I've done some stupid, fucked up things that brought about some really crappy consequences. And I look back and part of me goes, oh, like, I just want to cringe, and it almost feels humiliating, even just to re witness it in my own mind. And yet I try to bring that loving parent, internal parent, part of me there to say, you know that young Colette did the best she could with what she knew at the time, and I learned from those mistakes, and I feel tenderness toward her, not judgment and contempt. And I think when we begin to do that, even though it's not easy, it's a conscious choice, we begin to free ourselves to move forward in the future and cultivate the life we want, and we give ourselves permission to continue to make mistakes and learn from them. And it sounds like this is the way you're living your life, that you're on a beautiful journey of really being alive and loving toward yourself, and that it's bringing loving, healthy people into your life. Thank

Cait Flanders:

you for saying that. That definitely feels true. It feels like like, Actually, I haven't done therapy in a couple of years now, but it feels like that's like one of the last things my therapist said to me was she was just like, I think you don't understand this, or didn't understand this, but like, Your journey has been learning how to love yourself and and just treating yourself like with love and respect. And it's like, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

I I have goosebumps everywhere when you say, Yeah, because that's it, right? You can create whatever life you want, but you've got to have that foundation and some self love. And self love doesn't mean that you have all this self confidence, right? It just means that we, we show up for ourselves, and we're we're caring toward ourselves the way we would be toward anyone else we love. People talk about having courage, but most of us don't feel very brave when we're standing there in the face of our fear and we want the thing. Perhaps, maybe we don't even know what it is. It's on the other side of the fear. So how do you see that? What steps do you take to go on that journey when you're scared, but you've got to act anyway. Yeah,

Cait Flanders:

one of the first things, and I've really had to practice this, but it is something that I probably now try to remind myself near the start of this, like, if I'm trying to make a change now, is I do try to live in a way where it's all an experiment. Like, I try not to focus on, you know, like, if I make this decision and it's wrong or I decide I don't like it, I try not to, I guess, stress too much about that. Like, it's like understanding you can reverse out, you know, like you can decide, actually, this wasn't the right one for me, I can actually just change my mind again. Like, that's allowed. So like, if you're curious about something, just try it. And like, if it's not working, you know, either reverse or change direction, like it's and like, you won't actually know how you feel about the thing until you start it. So that permission, I guess, of just like, it's just an experiment, like you're not making decision for the rest of your life, and you have to hold on to this decision forever and ever,

Laura Bowman:

reducing the stakes and, like, really relying on the process, I know, even in the book adventures, and opting out, it's like this extended metaphor of the hike, right? Or the climb, and you're like, you know, it's not all about the summit. It's not all about like, this outcome. It's all about, like, the process of showing up and playing with things and reworking things when you need to. I love

Colette Fehr:

it. That's, in fact, really the only way we can do it. But I think people do get stuck on this, so I'm glad you're saying it, first of all analysis paralysis, right? We want to, like, figure it all out first and what's the right choice. And a favorite phrase of mine, as I always like to say, because I approach it much the same that you do. I'm not outcome dependent, right? That that is my favorite thing to remind myself of, because it gives myself permission to fail, to mess up, to be wrong about what I thought was going to be good for me or fulfilling, and to pivot. Not only can you change your mind, but you can redirect. Few decisions are really going to wreck your life. Now, some can, and I've made some of those too, but even those, I managed to you. You know, make something beautiful out of so if we can stop thinking about everything, we're going to try as, Oh my gosh, I have to be good enough for it, and I have to know what it's going to do, and I have to know how it's going to change. And what if I make a mistake? Who cares? Maybe you do make a mistake, but maybe that mistake leads to this beautiful new pathway up the mountain that you never would have discovered. The other

Cait Flanders:

thing that's become true over the years is that, like, one of the ways, like, one of the other ways that I, I guess, like, can feel confident in making changes is I've done it enough to know that I can handle things, yes, you know. So it's like, I've made enough changes and also pivots. There are ones I've completely reversed out of. There are ones that I've just had to sidestep somewhere, like, there. There's so many things that that I now have almost like this in my body. There is now memory of, like, I know how to handle it so, like, even if I'm still terrified to start, I do have enough history in my body that tells me I can handle it. So, like, kind of no matter what comes up, like, I don't want to put myself into like, the danger zone of, like, way outside my comfort zone, but I'm like, but like I can handle being pushed. Like I can handle Yeah, if this doesn't work, if I need to do something else, like I can handle that.

Colette Fehr:

This is why people are stuck, because change is scary and because we don't have what you describe, you have to build a muscle for it. It's like the paradox of fear, right? Which is that the more you do the thing you're afraid of, the less afraid you become. But in order to get to that place, you have to do the thing you're afraid of and as so much as possible for all of us, if we're willing to collaborate with fear and move with fear, instead of feeling like we have to overcome it and then we'll act

Cait Flanders:

it's interesting how like listening to you say that it it brought me back to, I'd say, like, the first six months of quitting drinking, which because, like, you, I think it was the word to use. They're like, willing, not courageous. It's like, nothing about that felt courageous. And actually, sometimes I think it feels important, almost to, like, share some of these stories, which is, like, the first time you make a big change, you're probably actually not gonna do it, like, with full honesty and integrity. I found it so scary to tell my friends that I was thinking about quitting drinking, so I kind of just lied and said I had homework all the time. Like, honestly, but I'm like, but that is, like, a thing it took, and it's like, now if I was gonna do something, I have many years of like, sobriety behind me that I'm like, Oh, I could easily talk about the thing, and it's, it's not as scary, but it's like 27 years old thinking about quitting drinking, which definitely affected my entire social life, and like all of my relationships, I didn't feel courageous with it in the beginning, honestly, I probably didn't feel courageous with sobriety for like, five plus years. You

Colette Fehr:

know that's so glad you're saying this. I'm so glad you're saying this, because this is the hardest part of it, is that we don't feel courageous, we don't feel brave, and we don't do it with honesty and integrity at the beginning, because we're unsure. We're racked with fear and self doubt, and we don't even know if we're taking the right steps. But this is why action is so important. Had you never been willing to go through that period of discomfort and self doubt and taking action without knowing where it would lead you, you wouldn't be living the kind of intentional life you

Cait Flanders:

are. No, it's true, and it's like, that's I'm like, I'm not necessarily sharing that as advice. It's more just like, if you're not comfortable telling everyone what new thing you're doing you don't have to like, and with all changes, that's definitely something I've learned. Is like you learn over time, who are the people that you can talk to about these kinds of things with, and who are the people you can't like, who are the people who are, to be blunt, just gonna like shit all over it like you're gonna learn that and but then you also learn who the people are who are just going to support you unconditionally and are just going to be happy with you doing whatever's right for you.

Laura Bowman:

I love what you write. I love it. And I wanted this for the listeners, because I want to, like, talk to them a little bit about when you said, signs of being on the wrong path. This is from your adventures book I love that that part and you write, you complain about the same thing over and over, for weeks, months, or maybe even years. You feel bored, ambivalent or numb about a job, relationship or situation. You have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep. You feel defensive about your choices. You don't like yourself very much, but you aren't sure why. You don't like to think about where your money is going or being used for. You feel jealous when you see other people doing things you want to do. You see the direction you are heading in. And you don't like it. I was like, Yeah, mic drop, right? Like, so this is time to, like, look at yourself and go. Maybe it's time for an experiment.

Colette Fehr:

When somebody dares to take the risk, they're willing to take the risk, to be honest, to be vulnerable, to be assertive about what they need, and they're witnessed, and space is held for them, and that person gives a loving, accepting response. There is nothing more healing and satisfying and soul enriching than those moments like I could cry just even thinking about it. That's like the sense of what we get to do as therapists and as people, if we can create that kind of connection with somebody like everything else in life is

Laura Bowman:

gravy. I totally agree with what you guys are saying, but I want to take us back to like the beginning of this conversation, where you take the alcohol out of the story, you take the shopping out of the story, you get quiet. And you cried more in that year than you probably ever cried in your whole life. There is a part where you have to get connected with self, you have to release emotion, or you are not worth anything in relationship. You're so constipated, you're so you're just like so shut down. You can't get there. So there has to be a time in life where you're getting really real with self before you know, and not that these things can't happen simultaneously, but that emotional growth is like, it's, there's got to be a phase. It's,

Cait Flanders:

yeah, it's very true. I also think, like that's something I appreciate in my partnership so much as we talk about how our relationships with ourselves is like number one. So like, if one of us is feeling disconnected from ourselves, it's not, we're not going to have a good relationship. I'm

Colette Fehr:

so glad you circled back to that, Laura, before we wrapped up and I realized we're out of time. But I mean, Kate, I could just talk to you all day, yes and savor every moment. You are walking the walk and living it and writing beautifully about it, and you just exude this sense of warmth and peace. And I hope everyone who's listening will check us out on youtube so that they can see what this looks like, and also hear that it doesn't start out so pretty and perfect. It's messy, it's messy, but this is something we can all do. So thank you for being an inspiration to everyone, and before we let you go, can you tell us? Tell the listeners how they can find you and connect with you. Well, first,

Cait Flanders:

like and your books first. Thank you for that. That's such a nice and, like, generous reflection. I would say, like the number one place, because I am a writer, is like, I write. I read a newsletter on sub stack. So it's just like, Kate Flanders, dot, sub stack.com, I think is the link. So I'm on some stack, and

Colette Fehr:

Kate is C, A, I T, just for everyone. Yes. Okay,

Cait Flanders:

yeah. So Kate Flanders sub stack, I am on Instagram a little bit again, just Kate Flanders across the board. I do share pictures of, like, my hikes and places that I go outside. So if nothing else, maybe you'll enjoy the pictures. And

Laura Bowman:

Kate, what are you working on next like, what's what's the next thing? Yeah. So

Cait Flanders:

it's interesting now, because I think when people have asked that question, for that question over the last few years, I almost felt like, oh, the answer was, like, nothing. Because I didn't, I just didn't know. I think I was doing a lot of healing work for the last few years, and it's like really hard to write, especially anything personal, when you're in the thick of that. But yeah, I'm working on a book proposal right now. So it's one of those things where you're like, you can't say can't say too much, because you need to find out if a publisher is even interested. And you know, maybe they will be, and if they're not, I do actually believe in it enough. I think I would even go the self publishing route. So we'll, we'll just see what happens. But hopefully book number three,

Laura Bowman:

well, I'm here for it, so me

Colette Fehr:

too. Thank you so much for being with us and everyone, all of our listeners, thank you for your support. Check out Kate's amazing books, and we're going to link to everything in our show notes and also her sub stack. And we hope you got some great insights from the couch today. We'll see you next time you