Insights from the Couch - Mental Health at Midlife

Ep.47: Losing a Loved One: How to Cope, Heal, and Move Forward with Helen Keeling Neal, LMHC

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 3 • Episode 47

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In this heartfelt episode, we’re joined by our dear friend and fellow therapist, Helen Keeling-Neal, as she bravely shares her journey through grief after the sudden loss of her husband. Helen opens up about the profound and unexpected challenges that come with navigating life as a young widow and single mom, all while finding ways to heal, grow, and embrace a new path forward. Whether you’ve experienced a similar loss or simply want to support a loved one going through grief, Helen’s story is full of insights, compassion, and real-life wisdom.

We explore the complexities of grief, from the early shock and survival mode to the ongoing journey of healing and finding purpose. Helen discusses the tools and support systems that helped her, including therapy and community, and she offers invaluable advice on how to be there for someone experiencing loss. 

 

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] - Introducing Helen Keeling-Neal and her story of sudden loss.
[2:00] - The immediate impact of losing a spouse and going into “survival mode.”
[3:26] - Dealing with the “business of death” and the logistics of loss.
[6:54] - Finding support: How friends, family, and community showed up.
[9:36] - Coping strategies: Therapy, EMDR, and the importance of avoiding quick fixes.
[12:58] - Raising young children through grief and balancing career shifts.
[17:51] - Understanding attachment and compound grief in the healing process.
[23:31] - Moving forward in new relationships and dealing with fears of loss.
[29:19] - Top tips for navigating grief and healing after losing a loved one.

 

Resources:

 

For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!

If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!

Colette Fehr:

Helen, welcome back, everyone. Thanks for listening. We are here today with Helen Keeling Neil, our dear friend and also colleague. She is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, licensed mental health counselor with a private practice in Winter Park, Florida, and an all around, fabulous human being, and we're in for a real treat today, because even though it's a difficult subject matter, it's one that's really important to discuss. Helen lost her husband at an unexpectedly young age, and has found a way to move through grief and live her best life, and we really want you to hear about how she did that, what she's been through, and the hopes that it will help those of you who are dealing with something similar, and maybe a friends and family going through that as well. So welcome, Helen. I'm going to shut up now, and I want to turn over the floor to you a little bit. It's

Helen Keeling-Neal:

good to be here. I think this is a really important topic, no matter what age you lose someone at. For me, I was 42 my kids were four and six. David was 10 years older than me, and it was very quick. It was very sudden. We'd known something was going on. We thought it was maybe to do with his stomach, and had him checked out at the gastroenterologist and things like that. And three months later, he was in chronic liver failure, so he had liver cancer, yes, and so we actually, from when we found that out, he went into the hospital and never came out. He ended up passing away in hospice, but it was about about two and a half weeks, and then he was, what, yeah, wow. Very quick, very shocking, very powerless place to be. Yeah, super fast. Doing this a long time ago. Clearly, I'm not 42 anymore, but Well, you look at Judy. Oh, yeah, thank you.

Laura Bowman:

How many years ago was that at this client? 1009

Helen Keeling-Neal:

so it's come coming up on 15 Wow.

Laura Bowman:

So a 15 year journey of, I mean, take us into, like, how you process that just initially? I mean, obviously it's so unexpected. Well, you

Helen Keeling-Neal:

don't, you don't process it initially. You go into survival mode, or shutdown mode, or num mode, or mum mode. I went into mum mode. My kids were so little, they were attached to him, and so that's what I had to do. That kind of loss, and any loss, especially when you have kids, it's like you're losing you're not just losing your husband, but you're losing an income, you're losing the guy who cuts the lawn, you know, you're losing BEDTIME STORY dad and the person who grills in the family, and the second set of eyes and all of this. So it's like this loss across the board that you don't even think about until it happens.

Colette Fehr:

I'm just even listening to you. I've known you all these years, and I did not know the story of what happened, or just how sudden it was, how young your children were, and for this to all transpire within a period of about two weeks, were you just in shock for a long period of time? Or, I mean, how do you even get through the day when this first occurs?

Helen Keeling-Neal:

Yeah, I this might sound some kind of harsh, but I think after someone passes away, or is in the process of a sudden, tragic thing like this, there's like you go into the business of death. It's like you have to handle the business of it, the logistics, the you know, for me as somebody who wanted to really take care of my kids, and the way the story went, we went into the hospital, they told me, originally, 18 months, and then they assessed them again. They said probably about 12 months. And then a couple days later they said, No, we're looking at about six to nine months. And then they told me, he's good about eight weeks. And then they said this was all in space for a few days. He's probably good about seven days, and that's how quickly that happens. So I had to set in place, and I feel grateful that I was able to do this the things that we might need. So I'd already went to New Hope for Children, grieving family, because I knew I was going to need that as a resource for my kids. I was already reaching out to family, because, I mean family in town, things like that. So I went into business mode, logistics mode. You got the funeral, the service, and you're dealing with a lot of people who are super kind. And, you know, there's jokes about the endless lasagnas and stuffed shells, and it's true, but it's also delightful, and I got to feed some neighbors with that, because there was so much food and and so much care. So it's not really, I think, until later in the quiet moments. Are really hard to allow that the real grief starts to process, and that can be years later for people. You know, I think about six months later, things got quieter. People weren't calling as much. That's when, you know, I would be curled up on the floor sobbing, and my kids just oh, it was heartbreaking. Either the older one, who was six, knew much my kids were really chewing Dan, you know, and just grieved so loudly, and the younger one, she didn't know she was grieving so she would get so upset. And this was a four year old who didn't have tantrums, you we, you know, and hadn't said she was around too you would check the door in her room so hard she cracked the wall because she was so upset that they didn't have blueberry flavor Italian ice. Now, we both know, we all know, wasn't the Italian a wasn't Italian ice, and so having to deal with that on that's when you put your own grief aside. That's when you can't and make an income, and, you know, keep the house tight and do the laundry and keep their schedule as normal as possible, bedtimes and story and and school and all of that. It comes in pods, and it's completely non linear. And we all, you know, we know the stages of of grief, and I think you can have all of them once. You can have one, and then can be a big gap and and the things to look out for are, you know, don't dive into substance use and another relationship, yeah, really important.

Laura Bowman:

Did you have anyone to support you like does does family come and stay with you or rally next to you? Are you like alone with these small children for the bulk of this journey?

Helen Keeling-Neal:

But first, I had a lot of support and, you know, and I have to say that as someone who is used to being the supporter, I had to really adjust my mindset around that and learn how to receive. And I'm very big on working with my clients, on on receiving and encouraging people to ask, and when people say, What can I do? Oh, I'm fine and good be specific. And also it's something that's important to know is you don't know what you need sometimes in the event of that. So having someone say, Hey, I'm gonna bring you some food. I'm gonna drop it off on your doorstep. Don't worry, you can freeze it is great. But as far as support, I had an amazing community where I lived, a lot of really, really strong friends. My mom flew in from England, was here for a couple of weeks, and my good friend Molly came into town, and David's family came into town, then everybody goes away after a couple of weeks. Yes, this is what

Colette Fehr:

I hear people talk about, who my my really dear friend, just lost her father, and obviously it's a different situation. He was an older man, but they still were not prepared for it at all. And a lot of what you're saying reminds me of what she said. So I think this conversation is important for everyone who's lost anyone in their life that you know, at first you are, I love your friends, the business of death that you have to function. And so maybe you're not even in shock yet, or you're certainly not in the Stages of Grief yet, because you there's just so much to do, yeah, that has to be accomplished. You only have the luxury of feeling your feelings. And then it's not till, you know, I've heard other people and clients talk about this, that after somebody passes, there's all these people around you, and then people go back to their normal lives. And that's when you're alone and you have the space to sit with the enormity of what's happened, and it begins to sink in, yeah? So it makes a lot of sense. But I think if you haven't been through it, and I haven't been through it, knock on wood with anyone so close to me, you know, I can't imagine how hard that must be when it begins to sink in, yeah. So what kind of things when you're saying, Don't go to substance abuse, don't get involved with someone else, and I can see how tempting both of those things would be. What are some of the things you did that helped you cope when it began to sink in and you started feeling your feelings?

Helen Keeling-Neal:

Therapy. Therapy is huge. EMDR, you know, really helpful. I try to live a normal life with that kind of loss. It just wakes you up into this pentacrest. But it's like, what the fuck kind of circumstance where everything else. Seems small in comparison. So the things that might have been a big irritation before it just goes away, because it's like, well, nobody died today. That's and honestly, definitely mantra, nobody died today, I'm in recovery. So I went to recovery meetings, I would raise my hand and say, I'm a high risk. I'm a high risk. And, you know, so that I could get through this, sober and be present for my kids. Yeah, having close friends that you can sit and cry with, that can hold that space for you and not need to make you feel better, rescuing you from it. Yes, yes. But there comes a stage where, like you want to, I wanted to be able to do that right, to vent it out when it came up, but Griff is like a sneaky bench because it blindsides you just at the most inopportune moments. And I remember I heard about 11 months after David died, I went on a date. Was a nice date, went for dinner, gave her a hug goodbye, and had the wrong cologne on. The smell was the wrong spot. I went home and I cried for three days. I just just never think about things like that, what that's going to be like? It's

Colette Fehr:

not your person. And it all of a sudden that grief just comes surging up.

Helen Keeling-Neal:

Another thing I did, I went to grief. Share, I don't know if you've heard of grief share, no, what's grief? Share? It is done through a church. And I'm not a particularly churchy person, but I met this lovely lady who was an older lady, and she said, why don't you come to grief share, and it's to help process grief, and it's, it's non denominational. And that was really helpful, because everybody in the room had lost someone, and that was really good. And then you hoped for grieving children and families, because the parents would have their own session while the kids had their sessions.

Colette Fehr:

Oh, that's amazing. That's great. So you really recommend, and it makes sense to me as a therapist like this shared experience of being with others who have are going through something similar, that that's an important component, I would think of healing huge.

Helen Keeling-Neal:

Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

I have a client doing that right now. She lost her dad unexpectedly, and it's a huge help. Let me, let me ask you, Ellen, I'm assuming, like having young kids, were you working at the time, or were you like a stay at home mom.

Helen Keeling-Neal:

So I was working part time, just doing some business consulting and teaching mommy and me art classes, consulting for an art studio called my art studio. And we've been on through a lot of difficulties. Because it was the recession, David had lost his job. There was a lot of stuff going on, so we're in a very financially difficult position, and so I actually had to get a full time job immediately after he passed away. So it was about three weeks later I was working full time.

Laura Bowman:

What did you decide to do? Like, what? What did you find in terms of full time work in that moment?

Helen Keeling-Neal:

Yes, well, I'm very grateful, because the art studio had wanted me to come on as director previously, but I'd said no, so I went on full time as the director for my art studio and did a had a full time after school program and field trips and things like that. That was a real gift for me, because I was able to leave, pick up my kids and bring them back to the studio, because my priority was my kids. Yeah, but I had to make a decision, and this is a decision which is a difficult one to make. I had to make a decision to not make a very high income, because I needed to be really present for my kids. I could have gone into, you know, three plus figure position, but shows less because of the time and what and flexibility I needed, and that was a really difficult thing, and it meant I, you know, I lost the house that I lived in, and had to move into a smaller house, but I did that on purpose, because I needed to not have that be so overwhelming, the overhead be so overwhelming that I would just have nothing for my kids and would be working like 56 hours a week, right?

Colette Fehr:

You needed to prioritize your time with the kids and balance that in the decision. And I wonder Helen, you know, as we're all three therapists here, and for our listeners who may be grieving the loss of someone or surely it's something we're all going to face at some point, I have seen many clients over the years before I decided to only do couples therapy in particular, who would move through the stages of grief and come to some resolution, and Then those who would, you know, not resolution, but acceptance, and then those who would really get stuck in the grief and not progress. And one of the things I've noticed, and I'm curious your take on this, is that many of those who were able to successfully move through the grief and come to acceptance created a narrative. Narrative of what happened that they could live with. And doesn't mean that it minimized the pain, but they found a way to make sense of and come to terms with it. Did you have to develop some because I would imagine that you're you know, how does this happen to me? How could this have happened, especially when it's a tragic, untimely thing. Did you have to come up with some kind of narrative that explained why this occurred, or to help you live with the unthinkable?

Helen Keeling-Neal:

I really didn't, but I'm a little different in that way. Personally, I'm very much a sort of living in alignment kind of person.

Colette Fehr:

Can you explain what that means too? Can you explain what living in alignment means? So,

Helen Keeling-Neal:

you know, I don't go to why did this happen? I go to more. This sucks that this happened. This isn't fair that it happened, but it did happen. What do I need to do now to move through it? Did

Laura Bowman:

you feel sorry for yourself, though? Was there, like, was there strong feelings of, like, Why me?

Helen Keeling-Neal:

I think the feelings didn't come in the thought of, why me. They came in complete overwhelm, yeah, like, it's not fair to be so overwhelmed. Like, that's not okay. I have a lot of things I went through early childhood and things like that too, that made life very difficult for me. So I think I was like, What the This is not fucking fair. Yeah. So it's more anger,

Unknown:

really too much for one person's life, but then

Helen Keeling-Neal:

on the other side, but it is what it is, and therefore what am I going to do, and how am I going to handle it, and how I'm going to move through it. No one's talked to that getting stuck. I'm pretty convinced that getting stuck piece is related to compound grief and attachment. More about that? Yes. Pink set, the neurologist, he talks about the seven affect networks in one of them is panic slash grief, which is the abandonment, the loneliness and those kind of elements. And so what I see, and certainly with some of my experiences, if you've lost someone significant earlier, or if you have an attachment wound for an unavailable or non present, or non emotionally present caregiver, you can get stuck in an aspect of yourself that is looping the grief. That seems like it's about this loss, but it isn't. It's an earlier attachment wound or an earlier loss.

Laura Bowman:

That makes sense.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, that was going to say the same thing. That makes perfect sense. And when I think about the clients who come to mind, that makes sense with their attachment history as well. So in the case of the point you're bringing up for somebody listening, you know, this is where going to therapy is really going to be important, really

Helen Keeling-Neal:

important, right? Because it's hard to pass apart, because I had some of that too, because I lost my dad when I was younger, and it was a lot of stuff, right? So you it feels so huge, it feels insurmountable. And so a good therapist can help you with some EMDR, or you have a tea or whatever, you know, modality that works for you to really kind of pull that apart, so you can process this and then process this and process this. It

Laura Bowman:

sounds like you did a lot of work prior though

Colette Fehr:

I did. You've mentioned EMDR twice, and now art and our listeners, most of them probably don't know what those things are. Can you just give a very top line explanation? Because somebody going through grief may want to look for a therapist in their area who does these modalities that are so helpful. So do you want to just share a little more about what those are and why they're so effective?

Helen Keeling-Neal:

Yes. EMDR stands for eye movement desensitization, reprocessing, and so it's a way using bilateral movements, whether it's tapping or tracking with your eyes, to process the trauma in connection with the grief and loss. So a lot of times the it's not pretty, the end of life can be not pretty and very traumatic to see. Yeah. So the way that you do that is you can walk through releasing the stored trauma around the event and around loss and a RT. I'm not trained in, but I know other people who are trained in it accelerated resolution, theory, I think, and therapy, therapy, thank you. And that's a similar process too. Yes,

Colette Fehr:

thank you. Helen and I actually did, the practitioner in my office is trained in art, and I did two sessions with her, not on well, on another kind of grief, a relationship grief, and it's actually very similar to EMDR, which you and I are both trained in. And these are, I do think it's worth saying, you know, if you're going through something like this, the loss of a loved one, grief and trauma around that EMDR, or. Therapy can help you move through it much more quickly and deeply, because when we talk things through, it's so valuable, but it's really more of a cognitive process. And when you get beneath all of that, into the body more deeply and into those stored memories that are less conscious, it helps you, like you said, release some of that. So I think we all probably would suggest to any listeners that those therapies are worth looking into. And our website insights from the couch.org, we will include links to those therapies so you can look into that more thoroughly, as well as look for a therapist trained in those modalities in your area. I think that's really useful advice for people.

Laura Bowman:

What was the beginning of the shifting out of this, where you began to feel like, I can raise these kids, I've got this I'm healing like, what was the what was the journey through? I'm sure it's still going on, but

Helen Keeling-Neal:

in some way, because every developmental milestone, every mile marker, for them and for me as an absence, right? So if it's starting first grade or second grade, or graduating high school or going to college, so it's always going to be a lost dance. But you know, the Queen Mother, she had this great saying, and it was, it doesn't get better. I get better at it. And she's talking about grief. I love that I've seen often the image of a jar, and it's packed full of stones, and that's grief. And then a next image will be it's a bigger jar, and so the palace stones look smaller. Time really does heal. And if one's mindful of processing the emotions as they come up, allowing them to really come out. Often, we do an even deeper healing when you get into another relationship. You can't really do that loss if it's a significant other, until you're in a love relationship that is really connected, because it just kicks up a whole tennis shirt, a whole bunch of stuff. Have you

Laura Bowman:

had that experience? You had that experience? Tell us about that.

Helen Keeling-Neal:

Yeah, I guess it was about maybe 18 months. I had a relationship that lasted about a year and three months, but I was never really fully in love with him, but in that relationship, I did some grieving, but then I didn't really have a very long term relationship for a number of years after that, for a long time, two and a half years ago, I met someone, and I fell in love, and it was like fully hit terrifying, because the thought was, What if I lose them again? Yeah, so all this stuff came up. And two and a half years is not that long in a relationship, you know? And then here's this piece of now, bringing him into my family, with my kids and all that components, and it's really easy in some ways, to just stay out of a relationship. I didn't want to bring a lot of people in and out. I didn't want to do a lot of dating because of my kids, you know, so but then I went a little bit the other way.

Colette Fehr:

Have you found that being in a committed relationship now, despite the fear that it's brought a lot of healing,

Laura Bowman:

it's great. Oh, good. I'm so glad it's good. But is it, does it still feel so wildly vulnerable? Or have you worked through that?

Helen Keeling-Neal:

I've worked through that? Yes, so And Helen, maybe

Colette Fehr:

there isn't one, but I'm just curious what you would say to somebody going through this, like, do you see your own personal opinion kind of an ideal time to circulate? I mean, obviously everyone's got to tune into themselves and when they feel ready. But are there any like, do's and don'ts around getting into other relationships?

Helen Keeling-Neal:

Well, I don't think there is an ideal time. If you take somebody who is 70 years old and has maybe been with their partner for 50 years, and then that person may not even be able to be without a relationship, because that has been what has fed them for so long. So you know, I'd say a lot of seniors will go more quickly into a relationship. And, you know, go for it. I think the things to look out for is, if you have children, you need to be cautious, because they've already lost someone, yes, and they don't expect them to attach to this new person. Don't, you know, if. You fall in love with this person does not mean that they're going to and so there's a lot to navigate there. You really need to be mindful about that, and, and, and so that's why don't do it so quickly. Be mindful of not using it to avoid the grief

Laura Bowman:

your kids are like adults by the time you fall in love, right? Yes, yeah. How did they receive your partner? Were they happy for you by that point, like, come on, Mommy, you need to do this. Yes.

Helen Keeling-Neal:

So yeah. So it was about 10 months after David died, my eldest. It was so heartbreaking, and she goes, lovely. What am I gonna get? A new daddy? Heartbreaking. She couldn't conceptualize not having a new death, not having a dad. Could not, could not just like it was so heartbreaking. Oh my god, yeah, you have to be aware of the wound this creates for children, and especially zero to six, as far as attachment goes, you know, there's a big old like, it's, it's a wood, but it's a wound, no matter what. But they do great, yes, that's awesome, and

Colette Fehr:

they're happy. That's amazing.

Laura Bowman:

I love that. Oh yeah, we skipped over, like, the whole part of this story where you build this career. So that happens,

Colette Fehr:

yes, and become a therapist, yeah, yeah,

Helen Keeling-Neal:

you really invested in you. I did and, but, you know, there were a lot of reasons that I went into third grads thought about it. I remember going to a Rollins information session with a two year old and a newborn into, you know, like, and I'm thinking, Oh, no, I can't do this at this time. But after David died, I thought to myself, life needs to be done in a way that I want to do it. And what do I want to do? It has been I've thought about it for a long time, and I thought, well, what am I waiting for? Why am I waiting this? You just literally don't know if you're going to be here tomorrow or if anybody else is going to be here tomorrow. Why would I wait to move towards something? So I did. I applied, and I got my masters and became licensed. And another reason I did. I had a very specific goal. I was going to go right into private practice. I needed to be able to manage my own work hours so that I could set my own schedule, so I could be available for my kids. And everybody would say, you're going to have to work evenings. I said, I'm not working evenings. And I never did. I never worked evenings right from the get go. Good for you. I wanted to keep my kids a priority with that. It wasn't anybody else to be with them, wasn't another family member, and it wasn't in the budget to have babysitters. So you had

Colette Fehr:

to get right into action, and you did. You didn't have the luxury of just, you know, collapsing and hiding in your bedroom. You had to be an active mother. You had to be an earner. There were really, there was really no option but to keep waking up every day and putting one foot in front of the other, yeah,

Helen Keeling-Neal:

because I would collapse and hide in the bedroom or in collapse. But yeah, you have to keep going.

Laura Bowman:

You had to function. And let's just say how normal that is, the collapsing in the bedroom. I mean, I still hear that with women who have gone through some terrible divorces that were not there, like just the at night, collapsing and feeling hopeless and despair. And that's like part of the process seems really important to get that out, to have, like,

Helen Keeling-Neal:

to be sobbing so hard that your pillow is wet. Need to do that. Really important. If we store it, we just gonna Oh, and it just turns into other stones.

Colette Fehr:

Oh my gosh. I agree so much. And actually this is probably the perfect segue what you're saying right now as we wrap up the episode, to give some tips and takeaways for people going through grief of any kind, you know, one that I hear you saying now is absolutely feel your feelings. Give yourself permission, have that time to cry and sub you have to work through the emotions, and of course, you've also said going to therapy and maybe seeking something deeper than just talk therapy even. What else would you say are your top tips for somebody going through grief?

Helen Keeling-Neal:

Don't judge yourself in it. Stay away from that. I don't know why I'm crying or it's been six months. I should be feeling better or doing better. Let yourself be angry. I think that's a really big part that we don't always allow. Let yourself be angry at the person for dying. Let yourself be angry at God. Let yourself be angry at the world or the disease, or the person who created it, or the car, really let yourself be in that that's beautiful and mindful of guilt. Make sure to work through any guilt, the times that I nagged him, or the times that I was like, why aren't you home? And. I working so much, reflecting on and wishing I'd been kinder or more patient in things. So really turn a lens of kindness on yourself and understanding, and reach out to the people who can sit with big feelings, your friends and your family. And the other thing is, activate your play network, do something fun. The Oh, I love ride a roller coaster. Go do whatever is fun for you that used to be funny you think may not even be fun. Try and push yourself to do it because it will help. Oh, that's a great suggestion,

Colette Fehr:

because I think sometimes people feel like they shouldn't be having any fun, or shouldn't be doing anything good. And it's so important to feel your big and sad and hurt, hurtful feelings, but also to go live and not lift yourself up for that. And then, of course, you also said earlier to some kind of support group if you have children, perhaps they need that too, if you've lost a spouse, but also for you, if you can find a local group at a church or someplace else with other people going through grief, that that will really, really help. I mean, these are such powerful, important takeaways. Anything else that you want to add? I certainly think this is enough, but I want to give you a chance. If there's anything else that you feel like is really important.

Helen Keeling-Neal:

I want to add something for the people who are supporting the person who's lost someone. One of the things you know a lot of times, after some period of time, it was almost like my identity, my community, became the person whose husband had died, and my kids, it was the kids whose dad had died, and sometimes you just want to feel normal. So the pity eyes, whenever someone would see me, some people go right into the pity eyes. And I know that that's empathy and and know that that's care. But sometimes you just want to be a person who is going to work or doing the laundry or making a dinner, and so take your cues from the person who's grieving.

Laura Bowman:

It's good advice.

Colette Fehr:

That's great advice that's helpful for me to hear just as a person, because I think I'm one of those people who probably has the pity eyes and is trying to exercise, but sometimes you don't, you don't want to be living in the space of it every minute of every day. Great. Yes, so helpful, and we're so happy to have had you. And we're going to give links to EMDR therapy, art therapy, and all that good stuff, so that if you're going through this, or, you know someone who is you have solutions that can help. And I love Helen, how you said, my favorite thing, it doesn't get better. I get better at it. I mean, I think that's just a beautiful synopsis of the crazy and up and down process of grief, right? You've got to give it time.

Laura Bowman:

And so glad to hear that you're so happy and your family is good, that's awesome. You're

Colette Fehr:

in love and you're in love. Oh God, yay for

Laura Bowman:

love. We love love,

Colette Fehr:

all right. Well, thank you so much everyone for listening, and don't forget to check out resources from this episode and more at insights from the couch.org. Thank you, Helen, and we'll see you next time.

Laura Bowman:

Take care, everybody.

Unknown:

You.