Insights from the Couch - Mental Health at Midlife

Ep.30: Divorcuary: Should I Stay or Should I Go? With Dr. Marni Feuerman

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 3 • Episode 30

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This week, we’re joined by the incredible Dr. Marnie Feuerman, a renowned couples therapist and author of Ghosted and Breadcrumbed. Together, we tackle the heart-wrenching question so many face: Should I stay in this relationship or should I leave? Dr. Marnie shares her wisdom on navigating divorce ambivalence, emotional disconnection, and the power of discernment counseling to find clarity and confidence. Are you in a “gray divorce” phase or just questioning your connection? The insights Dr. Marni Feuerman shares can help you move forward with intention.

We talk about the importance of emotional availability, how systemic understanding can transform relational dynamics, and why some relationships struggle during midlife transitions. Dr. Marnie also unpacks the nuances of attachment styles and how they shape the way couples connect or disconnect. Don’t miss this candid and compassionate conversation that may just help you find the clarity you’ve been searching for.

 

Episode Highlights:
[00:02] - Introducing Dr. Marnie Feuerman and her expertise in relationship counseling.
[01:56] - Dr. Marnie shares her perspective on why divorce ambivalence is so common and the complexities behind such a monumental decision.
[05:23] - Discussing "gray divorce" and how empty nest syndrome can magnify marital issues.
[08:05] - The impact of menopause and hormonal changes on intimacy and connection in relationships.
[11:39] - Emotional unavailability explained: What it looks like, how it affects relationships, and the role of attachment styles.
[15:55] - Colette reflects on her own experience with emotional disconnection in a marriage.
[20:23] - The "lottery test" question: A surprising way to explore how someone feels about staying in their marriage.
[26:34] - The difference between being “in love” versus experiencing a deeper, companionate love.
[30:48] - Dr. Marnie explains discernment counseling: What it is and how it helps couples clarify their next steps.
[36:30] - Why couples therapy requires at least one “cheerleader” for the relationship to succeed.
[41:22] - Final takeaways: Why seeking professional guidance with a systemic approach is essential when facing relationship crossroads.

 

Resources:

For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!

If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!

Colette Fehr:

Marc, so welcome back, guys. We're here at insights from the couch, mental health at midlife, with an amazing friend and therapist today that we have for you. Marnie feuerman, am I pronouncing it correctly? Marnie, yes, Dr. Marnie feuerman, and we have a great episode today, something that so many of us are dealing with. We're going to be talking about that very difficult question of, should I stay or should I go? You know, when you're considering divorce and you are ambivalent about it, maybe part of you wants it and part of you doesn't, and how we can help ourselves come to a decision. Marnie has so many valuable insights to share. So first of all, Marnie, before I do your bio, I just want to say welcome and thank you for

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

being here. Thank you so much for having me.

Colette Fehr:

We're so excited for this episode. Topic. We need this topic. Yes, we do. So let me just give you a little insight. You guys all a little insight into Dr Marc practice and her expertise. She is a distinguished psychotherapist based in South Florida and renowned particularly for her expertise in relationships and a legendary couples therapist. I feel confident saying that she's also a clinical supervisor of other therapists and an author. So Marnie is frequently sought after by popular media for her expertise. She writes for about.com and contributes content to platforms such as Huffington Post very well.com and the Gottman Institute, and she also has her own blog. Among others, she is also the author of the incredible book, ghosted and breadcrumbs. I love that title. Stop failing for unavailable men and get smart about healthy relationships.

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

Yeah. So which is here? Yeah.

Colette Fehr:

Okay, great, great. And we will link to the book in our show notes too, for sure, because it's really a valuable read. This book empowers women to break free from unhealthy relationship patterns. So for more information, you can visit Marty's website, the talking solution.com, and Dr Marnie online.com, and we will post all of this in the show notes as well. But for now, let's dig in to these juicy topics. And Marc, maybe you could start out by sharing with us and our listeners some of what you often hear from your clients when they come in on the fence about whether to stay married or get a divorce?

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

Yeah, it's, um, it's unfortunately, pretty common. And I think it's one of those problems people have when they are contemplating something like this, and it can leave people feeling really paralyzed. And of course, just as the decision was made to get married, which is one of the most important decisions you make in your life, here's another extremely important and gut often gut wrenching decision if you are thinking about divorce, and so it is definitely not A decision that can be taken lightly, and it really requires people to slow down and really be thorough about what's happening and what's going on, and their attempts to resolve the issues. And of course, reach out to a professional. It's probably one of the best times to reach out to a professional, and hopefully not when it's too late, where you're so far gone. And really that professional is just being used as the transitional person, as we call it, but maybe using a therapist where it because you really are struggling and you really don't know what to do, and there is perhaps some room still in your brain to, you know, to pivot, perhaps back into that relationship. And that is a possibility so but, you know, we go through, I'm sure you're, you both are very familiar with it, with the concept of cognitive dissonance, you know, which is certainly what we see so much in this particular circumstance, with which just basically means people have these very conflicting thoughts or these very conflicting decisions to make, or they're considering a decision that actually goes against their value system. And for a lot of people, they got married and they took bows. And so what it affects morally, ethically for people can't be discounted, right? That people are really struggling, and they've got all of this stuff going on, sometimes even religious considerations, and they're racked with guilt because of, you know, the particular way that they are committed to their religion, children. I mean, there's so many things that. So many layers to this choice that people sometimes get stuck around making, right

Colette Fehr:

and I just was working on a little video around Gray Divorce. And we know that the empty nest phase is a huge time of divorce for so many couples. Are you seeing a lot of that in your practice, later in life, divorces,

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

yes, you know, the kids leave, and if people haven't really, you know, fostered their connection and their romantic relationship, we know that the microscope is turned on right then when the kids leave, usually within, like, a year after they leave, and the dust kind of settles from that, and then people look at each other and say, you know, what are we doing here? And do I have something in common with this person? And kids are a fantastic distractor, and so when that's gone and your roles shift, it's either going to be a nice, smooth transition for people and welcoming and it's great, or we have the other group of people where they're just saying, Oh no, like, this is not what I expected, and it's not going well,

Laura Bowman:

and it's, you know, one of the things I see because I see individuals exclusively, I see the burnt out pursuer partner very often, Who is very frustrated and stuck because they have family considerations, moral considerations, but, but really, they feel like there is no emotional connection. And it is those family relationships that hold them in for far longer than they would stay otherwise. And it was so interesting. We went to this menopause conference, and one of these physicians were saying that really, so much of this Gray Divorce coincides with women's dip and desire, and then when the sex falls apart, that it begins to be like the death now of the connection. I don't know if you see that as well. Yeah, I

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

do. I do. I've definitely had some men come in and they're really struggling, because sex is still important, but their bodies are very different. Women, our bodies can really betray us. You know, in those menopause years and there's a significant amount of change. And as you know, sex is one of the most difficult topics for couples to talk about, right? So it's really hard to start up a conversation about your sex life and your dissatisfaction with it and when and what's happening when couples reach that. And I think also, women can feel some sense of shame too, because they may actually want it so they have a part of their brain that says, I do want to be physically intimate with my partner, but my but my body is not allowing me to because of those changes. And then that leads into which I'm sure you heard at the menopause conference, like how hard it is to get really good help, and what the medical world has been offering women at that phase of life. And I think there's definitely a lot to be desired. So all of these things are, you know, part of all those layers that I know we're going to talk

Colette Fehr:

about, yeah, and also, you know, the perimenopausal years that start so much earlier, when women start to experience a shift in hormones as early as the late 30s even, and certainly throughout the 40s. So all of this is happening as kids are getting older, if the kids leave and you haven't been emotionally connected for a long time, all of a sudden, you're feeling it. And we know that more than 70% of divorces are initiated by women. Women, right? Men are not as likely to ask for a divorce. But to the sex point, sex is such an important part of our relationship, and it's not just many people misunderstand that as men wanting to get off this is a primary way that men feel connected, and not that it's not true for women too, but we tend to really prioritize the emotional connection and feel most connected through conversation. So I wonder if what you see in your practice also correlates with those numbers and that trend that I see in my office. Yeah, definitely.

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

I see the same sort of thing reflected. I also see where women sometimes will even not even want to be affectionate. So it bleeds into that because they're thinking, if their husbands come over, give them a hug, that you know that is going to lead to the pressure of sex and and there just is worried about it too. So it's something that that's on their minds, even if it's the partner that's turning away from sex, it's on both people's minds. Just, again, nobody's really having conversations about it, but I think I see more men who feel more emotionally connected through the physical channel, and so when it all shuts down, it's obviously hugely problematic for the marriage, right?

Laura Bowman:

So yeah, I see that same thing, but I have men. I have a few men right now who are. Really exhausted in their marriages, and they're younger, and sex has stopped a while back. I mean, really, section of stopped, but sex has stopped a while ago, and they're burned out. Is, can you define for us, like, emotional unavailability and like, it can come in the form of either partner, right? This is not just men being emotionally unavailable, okay? Yes, 100%

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

Yeah. So I would kind of broadly put it into a few different categories. So sometimes someone's emotionally unavailable because of something that they're going through in their life, some type of other crisis. A parent just died. They just lost their job, you know, something like that, that maybe has them temporarily unavailable. And then there's the category that I would say is a more deeper level issue, where it's more within somebody, where they're putting up barriers to intimacy, or they turn away from intimacy and connection. They use a lot of protective strategies that don't involve turning towards their pop, their partner for comfort, help support those sorts of things. And so that would kind of be what we would call emotional unavailability, which is a, you know, certainly a very broad term, but usually one person would have some challenges with connecting in some way with their partner.

Colette Fehr:

That makes a lot of sense. And so what happens in a marriage when one partner is emotionally available or more securely attached and does turn for comfort and connection and another partner isn't? Yeah, well,

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

these things do exist on a continuum. So if you have somebody who, let's say, they've got some challenges with being more emotionally like available and open, but they are, they're able to lean into it. If they're with a more securely attached partner, there's a good chance they're going to gravitate more in that direction. But what we see is really problematic is when one person is secure, we'll say they're more securely attached, but they're with a very severely avoidant partner, and that avoidant partner just doubles down and maybe doesn't have insight, isn't willing to get help, isn't really wanting to look at it, then the other, the more secure partner, is going to become very burnt out, because they're going to always have that longing for the connection. So that's what can happen. But if somebody is more secure, there's a there's a good chance that they're going to, like, pull their partner a bit in that direction. So that's good news. But as we know, if we have another, like, more opposite attachment type strategy where somebody is very anxious, then that's another one that could be super polarizing as well, and then it's, you know, it, they just get into that anxious, avoided trap, so to speak. So Right? But those things are often what you what ends up going to couples therapy right? When they have those situations where they just they know they're stuck, they don't really know why. They know something's wrong. They say we can't communicate so they know something's going on, but maybe they're not so understanding of, you know, those deeper dynamics that certainly a couple's therapists can see and try to help them with but if you've got somebody who just is going to maybe not be so open to the process and not maybe curious about their contribution to the dynamic, unfortunately, it doesn't often bode well even when they're in a therapist's office. So you do need someone who at least has willingness. That's a really good trait, if at least they're willing and they're open and they're not super defensive about it, you know,

Colette Fehr:

yep, being willing is so important. And just to ground this a little bit in narrative, Marnie, what you just described is exactly my first marriage, and the reason that I ended up getting divorced. And, you know, there were many issues to point to, but it wasn't really our issues. You know, we had young kids, and the division of labor wasn't equal, and our differences started to emerge. But the real issue is that my ex husband was not emotionally available, and I believe if he were here, he would also concede, because he has said this to me, that he wasn't emotionally available at that time. I think he's done a lot of work and made changes in his current marriage, but I could not reach him no matter what I did, and I did try to pull him along and engage, and I really could almost never get his authentic self. He did not turn to Me for comfort. He had the mindset of like, I handle things on my own, and I'm strong and silent. And when I would reach to him for comfort, it would be met with logic. And rational strategies and problem solving, which only made me feel feel more alienated. And so going through that for so long, you do get burned out. And if somebody isn't willing to work on that, or even worse, they don't even know that's an issue. They're just living life the way, I mean, he was doing what he saw, modeled in his own family and what he grew up with. So I couldn't get anywhere, and we didn't get anywhere even in couples therapy as a result. Oh, wow, yeah. So I really relate to what you're saying, and I think it's so much of what we see you and I working with couples is that it all comes down to emotional disconnection and unavailability. It's not the issues, it's not money, it's not kids, it's getting stuck because you can't connect around the differences in the issues, right?

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

Or you try to talk about it and one person shuts down, or one person escalates, or both people just go at it and attack each other. And we see all of these different types of patterns, yeah, that all just result in disconnection.

Laura Bowman:

I mean, I don't work with couples. I am wondering, I feel like I've heard this that like the anxious, avoidant sort of situation is easier to work with in some ways, because it's such a classic, you know, that that has more hope. I mean, am I right? Am I just, did I make

Colette Fehr:

that? Yeah, and that's the majority of people who come in,

Laura Bowman:

right? But some of the stuff that is really tough, like, what is where does it get? Really tough, really tough

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

when one or both has a history of trauma, because then sometimes you could be seeing explosiveness, or you're seeing the extreme ends of the continuum with the strategy. So someone's not just shutting down, but they could be stonewalling for days, the anxious person could be screaming and cussing and all of that. So you could see just a big, a big amount of energy, or on the other side of the continuum, where we have couples, where they are both more avoidance. And so those are the ones that often say, you know, they feel like roommates, and there's like, no conversations, yeah, and there's no fun, there's there's no energy, so, right? It's just flat lined. Those are really challenging to work with as well.

Colette Fehr:

So challenging. And as the therapist in the room, you know, we're working on their interactional cycle, and they come in and there's not barely even a cycle, the cycle is all just nothing, right? We sit there the dining dead. We don't talk, we don't fight, we don't talk about anything. We're not having sex. That is a really tough dynamic to turn around, for sure.

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

And their conversations are superficial. They're extremely superficial.

Colette Fehr:

Everything's at the surface, so there's no connection, and there's little to work with and grab onto. But as you said, Marnie, there's so many complicated issues about why people may stay in a marriage even when it's not very connected or fulfilling, religion, family finances, social pressure, all of those things. So what are some of the things? Right? Safety, right? Feeling a sense of security in the world, for sure. So what are some of the things people should consider and like, where do you start if you're in one of these like, I'm not happy, but I don't know if I want to leave. Yeah, where

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

you start is, you know, as a therapist, I'll kind of say where I would start, which just might kind of help know people understand me with the direction. So my opening question might be something like, just tell me your story. Tell me what's happened that's gotten you to this place where you were seriously thinking about divorce. I kind of want to blank slate people a little bit with that, and then I'm kind of poking around, because I want to get an understanding of, you know, maybe they've tried something, maybe they've had maybe they didn't try couples therapy, but I find out that the therapist had zero training in couples therapy. Maybe they tried therapy with an excellent couples therapists, and I'm thinking, wow, they really gave it a try, and they did it for a year, you know? So I'm wanting to know all of those things. I'm wanting to know if there are specific things that have happened that have been more along the lines of what we would call an attachment injuries, meaning something happened like, it, like infidelity or some other betrayal, or somebody's abusing substances, something like that, those sorts of things. I'm wanting to understand. What's happened with the parenting system. You know, did they throw all of their energy into the kids and completely. They disregard the marriage, how much are they considering the kids in this decision? Like you said finances, right? That that's a biggie, because I certainly hear people that are like, if I ask a question, like, which is, which probably isn't the most fair question, but I do ask it, I'll say, if you won the lottery today, I'm gonna give you ten million what are you doing? I'm gonna go. I'm

Colette Fehr:

gone. I love that very telling, very telling.

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

It doesn't mean yeah, they got to do it and follow through, but at least it's good information for me to help them, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

to see where they are. Yeah, because it tells you, if they felt totally financially secure, if somebody it's like a no brainer, they'd be out at least. It gives you a sense of, like, what they're feeling emotionally about the marriage,

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

right, right? And then there's always the love question, but it's much more nuanced, okay? Because people will say, I don't think I love them anymore. Okay?

Laura Bowman:

I love them. I love them, but I not in love with them. I love that.

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

I didn't love them. Oh my gosh. That, like, means, like, nothing, right? Like, what the heck that mean? Or I know, or sometimes you'll hear which, I think they rewrite history. I never did love them. Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

I hear that too.

Colette Fehr:

Like, I don't know that. I've said that about multiple people. So full disclosure, right? So

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

I don't know how much like stock I'm necessarily going to put in that. I just, but I know I'm going to be asking a lot more questions to kind of get a sense of, again, love what happened? Are they rewriting history? Was there this spark at the beginning? When was the spark lost? You know, was it right away? Was it 10 years later? Was it when the kids were born? So there's, there's so many things that you're kind of going with this timeline too, to try to plot out, like, what has impacted this marriage, and also the decisions that people have made, millions of them along the way, that have all been choice points. Are you turning towards each other, or did you continue to turn away and not necessarily to find fault? Right? I don't want, I wouldn't want anyone to come in and think that there has to be a good guy or a bad guy. Because, again, there there's so many strata, strata, stratifications of you know, the decision that has led someone to that particular point. So

Colette Fehr:

yeah, and Marc, what you're saying about these questions in particular, I want to ask if you can share more, because I think this is really important for listeners, just about why the love question isn't as important as people think it is. Because experientially, when you're feeling like I never loved you or I'm not in love with you anymore, this feels so pivotal to people, but we know as therapists that it's not really the heart of it. So can you shed a little more light on that. Yeah,

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

so I think the question is more about, you know, what their friendship is like, and if they can count on each other. I think that is really, really important. I think if someone can say yes, I can really count on this person, and they are my rock, and they're the person I go to when I'm not doing well, or when I when I have a need. That, to me, sounds like more the definition of love. And so when I hear I'm not in love often, what that does mean is that they don't feel like they can count on their partner, they don't feel like they've been they could go to them and they feel like they've been really let down, right? And it also, I think, starts to make that change the way they feel about themselves, yeah, you know, they feel like, am I not worthy? Am I not important? Am I not seen in this relationship? And so those are the things that I think are components of that love. And I'm definitely not looking for what often is there at the very beginning of a relationship, the lust and the limerence and that, you know, huge amount of attraction and all that, because we know that wears off. But what I am looking for is just that deeper companionate, love, that friendship, yeah, that, you know, we hold hands through the dark times that we go through, and sometimes people have let go of each other. And I would say that's more what I look for

Laura Bowman:

when you say the thing about, you know, it's really starting to affect how a person feels about themselves or their relationship with themselves, is that the hinge point where it's kind of like this is starting to not be, you know, the juice is not worth the squeeze at a point where you are just not feeling connected to yourself based on the stress of the relationship.

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

Yeah, people are feeling that's what. Then they start to say, I don't feel I don't feel loved, also, not just I'm not sure I love this person, but that they don't feel so loved either.

Colette Fehr:

And I think that's the most painful experience, right? That we know. That core question from Dr Sue Johnson of are you there for me? Right? Is the heart of attachment science, this is what relationships, mature, healthy relationships are really about feeling that you can turn to your partner in a time of need and that they'll be there, and that if you don't have that sense, you don't feel loved, and then this can start to affect how much love you feel for your partner eventually. And so what you're really trying to help people do is suss out when you say you don't feel in love anymore or that you never have what does that really mean? Right? Let's dig beneath the hood and understand a more granular definition of that, because it's certainly not about not having the butterflies anymore. Almost nobody has that it's even nature's design for that not to continue indefinitely. So really trying to help people get at what's happened in the relationship up to this point, that's gotten you here. Have you been turning toward each other, and what have you tried to work on the relationship, if anything, right? That's really important. So for listeners, you know, what do you want them to take away or, like, what can be helpful to understand about that? Because I think this is a big thing.

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

Yeah, so I'd say the most important thing I could stress to people is, I think when they're trying to figure this out, and they go to a professional they might be thinking like we have the Madrid formula, like they're gonna just plug in some data and we churn it out. We say yes, divorce, no, stay, and it's not like that at all. To also kind of quote Dr Bill Doherty, who has done a lot of research on this and the divorce question and divorce ambivalence, and I've learned a lot from him, it's more about clarity, and it's about confidence in the decision you're going to make. And you may never, ever feel you're reaching that 100% certainty level, but perhaps you've gotten a lot more information, and you've left no stone unturned in making the decision. So there won't be a magic, specific thing where you'll get that answer, but hopefully it will move you in the right direction of making, again, just one of the most important decisions you're going to make, and that you have somebody also holding up a mirror to you because you've contributed as well. And we know the divorce rate for second and third marriages is worse. And people think if they just trade out a partner, that that's going to just be the answer, and then they're finding that they're perhaps bringing their same behavior or trait or something within themselves into that next relationship. And so doing this work also gives you an opportunity to work on yourself, because if we're just focusing on your partner, we're not getting that whole systemic 360 degree view. And so that's a big piece of that as well.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, that the way you have work to do, even if you feel as if you're the secure partner who's really like, willing and open and it's the other person who's really contaminated the dynamic, you still have so much to learn. And let me just ask both of you, because you do this all the time. Can we debunk? Like, marriage therapists don't ever tell couples. Like, hey guys, you should call this. This is a mess. Like, you don't say it. Like, how does it really

Colette Fehr:

someone says that to you, that is not a good therapist, right? Yeah, right.

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

Should never tell you what to do with that.

Colette Fehr:

Exactly. Never. I think

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

people sometimes want that.

Colette Fehr:

Yes, you know, like that, yeah,

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

yes. Like they would want you to. And of course, you're I'm very clear that that's not what I do. And some people, I think, are disappointed by that, because, again, they're thinking, I'm going to tell them, but I thoroughly explain, like, what my job is and what I'm there to do, but the ultimate decision to stay or go lies with them. And then I also tell them, it really lies kind of with one of you, because it only takes one to, you know, to divorce. You know, we live in no fault, divorce times and whatever. So it really just takes one to decide that the marriage is over, so that relationship is not going to continue if just one person is wanting to do that. And so that's also kind of the sad reality of

Colette Fehr:

it, too, but it's so interesting because it takes two people to decide to get married, but only one to decide to get to divorce. And the reality is. When you have couples where one or both people are ambivalent, but particularly if one is ambivalent, that person inherently has more power in the dynamic. And So Marc, what you're speaking to and with this process of helping couples get clarity and feel more confident in making a decision. You're describing something very special called discernment therapy, or discernment counseling. And this is sort of the ambivalence therapy, when people are not sure, because until both people are willing to roll up their sleeves and lean in and do the work looking at themselves, you can't do traditional couples therapy. So can you give our listeners a little insight into discernment counseling?

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

Sure, so it's for what's called mixed agenda couples, meaning their their goal for coming in to see the marriage therapist is perhaps not in alignment, because one person is strongly considering divorce, or leaning out, or they both are, and so it's just a short term process to help them work both together and separately. So there's some one on one time, and then there's some time with them together to make sure they're exploring all of these, some of these things that we've touched on, and a lot of other things, so that they can make the best decision possible. And so it's just, it's just a process, so that it just is more refined to focus on that circumstance. Because most couples, when they come to us, that come to couples therapy, we assume, or we have to specifically ask, do you both want to work on this marriage? Are you both motivated to work on the marriage. And if you get some hesitancy, or you get I'm not sure, or you get somebody maybe reluctant to answer, or there are certain things that that are going to signal to you, I've got to back up a bit. I have to assess much more, and I perhaps have to bring some discernment, counseling skills and some of that process into this. So it's really just starting with exactly where they're at, because if you just launch into couples therapy, you're going to not gain traction, and it's going to be really frustrating. So for the therapist and and for the couple so you want the truth. What I tell people is I just really need as much honesty from you both as possible, and so we'll have some one on one time, so that you can really tell me your thoughts without worrying about like retribution. We can kind of even keep that confidential for short term. I get both of their consent for that, because this way I'm getting all the details that I need to then try to offer some kind of plan for them and some direction to go.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, so it's really a focused process. You and I both do discernment counseling. It's it can be a very helpful and really necessary thing, because it's typically one to five sessions where we're just focused on that clarity and confidence about a decision to either stay together and give it an all out effort, and, you know, maybe at least six months of couples therapy, or to call it, because sometimes we know somebody's already done. I mean, I joke that a lot of times, some one comes to me to donate their spouse to Goodwill, like, I'm good well, and they're like, Yeah, this thing out of my closet. I don't wear it. I don't want it, right? Like, I'm here to make a donation, and I want you to help me make this less painful. Yeah? And if we try to start doing couples therapy with somebody who's already out and is just afraid to say it's actually more damaging to the other partner and will waste everyone's time money and cause more emotional wounding. So it's really an important and it can be a very valuable thing to do, and a lot of people don't know about it. So if you're listening and you're someone who's struggling in your marriage, you know you may want to find somebody who does discernment counseling in your area and really try to get some clarity. Because I have to also say that this is the thing I wish had been available to me, or that I had known about in my first marriage, because I felt that I made a rushed, emotional decision, kind of under duress, and whatever you decide, there's right. There's no one way to go. Sometimes relationships need to end, but you want to really walk around in it and have someone help you process it, and know that, like you said, there's no stone unturned, so that when you do decide to do this, you feel like you've really examined all the angles, and even if it's still painful, you're sure about your decision. So things very valuable. It is valuable.

Laura Bowman:

Can I ask about this? Like this? If say, you're doing, you know, couples already, and you're hitting that roadblock, and you're like, I think. One or more of us might want to be done with this. So then when you go into I have a couple that's actually considering this right now, and they want to go into discernment. What's the decision tree after that? It's either maybe we don't want to be together anymore and now we're going to begin to wind the marriage down, or what happens? They can decide we're going to go full tilt into another course of marriage therapy or an intensive. What do you recommend after a discernment process?

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

Oh, that's a really good question. So depending on the outcome, you know, the three paths are. They do have an option to not do anything. So there's kind of go back status quo. Path to would be moving towards separation, or separation and divorce. And you kind of spend a lot of time talking about that and what that looks like. And because separation could be half a step to divorce, separation is sometimes just to get space and not be like right on top of each other and see if you miss somebody. And sometimes that loosens things up in a way that also helps them turn back into the marriage. So separation could be different directions. And then the third path is trying a course of couples therapy where you're going to stay in it for at least six months, because we want enough time to really see that we can affect some change. And if somebody just does two months has that same old fight over and over, which, of course, they're gonna have that same fight, I can guarantee it. And then they say, Okay, we're done. And so we're really trying to prevent that. We're saying, give us a chance, as the therapist, to work through that fight that you are gonna have for sure. So one interesting thing that Dr Dougherty found that I think makes sense, and I kind of see this in my practice. If you don't have at least one leaning in, there's a good chance the couple therapy really isn't going to take off. You kind of need that one person who he calls like, the cheerleader for the US, you know, the cheerleader for the relationship. And so if you have two that just, you know, still very ambivalent, both leaning out. There's nobody who's going to be like, hey, yeah, let's do this. Let's stick this. Let's stick with this. Let's see where we get. And so that's an interesting finding. So you do need at least one person who's really motivated, and maybe the other one not completely like detached and out if there's a little bit of energy that's workable, but you definitely need at least one partner with enough emotional energy to roll up their sleeves and get in the trenches and do the work.

Colette Fehr:

So true. And I think he also found that with those three paths that only about 10% of people end up opting to go with the status quo. We're not going to do couples therapy, we're not going to get divorced. Get divorced, we're just going to, like, leave things as they are, you know? So it's so interesting, right,

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

right? Most people want to do something, yeah, because

Laura Bowman:

they're ready. By the time you're getting to discernment, you're really ready to take a look at what to do, the status quo doesn't feel good

Colette Fehr:

anymore. Yeah, and I think the couples therapy piece is just helping people get into the right mindset that if they're gonna do that work, they are just like you said, Marc, they're gonna have to be willing to come ready to look at themselves and work on themselves, and not just point the finger at a partner, because couples therapy will not be helpful if you double down on that stance, and really that doesn't help anything in life period, actually,

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

completely, yes.

Colette Fehr:

So this is great. Okay, so we're about to be out of time here, but I want to ask you before we sign off any kind of final takeaways for our listeners, if they're in this position, or they have friends in this position that you want everyone to take away? Yeah,

Dr. Marnie Feuerman:

first of all, I really have a lot of compassion for those people, because it's, it is an awful place to be, you know. So I just want to validate that, that if you are in that circumstance, and if you're the kind of person who is watching even or listening to a podcast like this, you're conscientious, and you're wanting to really explore this, and you're wanting to get answers. You're not wanting to make a rash decision, and so all that's really good. And I would say we have a lot more information out there than maybe we did 510, even 20 years ago, we have a lot more information about what works in couples therapy, what makes marriage, marriages succeed and fail. We have a lot more hard science. And so I would say, don't hesitate to go out and, you know, educate yourself and work with a professional that really understands systems. And by that, I mean that they understand relational interactions and relationship dynamics, because that is it's just different than individual, than just working one on one with somebody who maybe that's all they've ever done, and they don't have as much of the relationship training. So that training is important, and you. Millions of excellent individual couples therapists. So please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. But I think even if you have an individual therapist, you'll want to know that they have some training in systems theory and in relationships and those types of dynamics. So that's just going to be important. Because when, when I have a someone coming in, and let's say, they don't want to come in with their partner, but they're contemplating this question. They're thinking about divorce. I'm going to work with them one on one, but I'm always keeping in my head the partner, and you know, what could be their perspective? And I'm trying to even ask questions to elicit that from that individual person. And of course, I'm always asking, like, would your partner be willing to see a therapist with you, so this way you can get the app the, you know, the best look at everything that's going on. And of course, for understandable reasons, sometimes they say no, because the partner has no idea at all that this is what they're thinking of. So that I, you know, I totally understand that side of it. But if you're in the circumstance where you can actually go visit a, you know, someone who works with couples, and in particular, if they do discernment work, then I would say it would it's really worthwhile so that you make this decision, and, you know, with that confidence and with that clarity,

Colette Fehr:

absolutely perfectly said. Thank you so much, Marnie. This is so helpful, and we're going to link to all of these resources and how you can reach Dr Marnie and even work with her if you're in the state of Florida, and we're just so grateful that you came on and lent us your time, because this is something so many people are dealing with. So thank you to you, and thank you everyone for listening. We hope you got some good insights from the couch today. Yes, and we will see you all next time.

Unknown:

Bye, guys. You