Insights from the Couch - Mental Health at Midlife

Ep.36: What Makes a Good Mother

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 3 • Episode 36

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Hey everyone, Colette and Laura here! This week, we’re diving deep into one of the biggest, most emotionally loaded topics: What makes a good mother? If you’re a parent (or ever had one), you’ve likely asked yourself this question in some form—whether it’s self-reflection, societal pressure, or those internalized voices from childhood.

We unpack the emotional complexities of motherhood, the impact of attachment, and how our childhood experiences shape the way we parent. Plus, we dive into the wild case of Ruby Franke—the “mommy blogger” turned convicted abuser—to contrast what real maternal love looks like versus performative parenting. We also get personal about our own mothering styles, the mistakes we’ve made, and the lessons we’ve learned. This episode is raw, honest, and full of insights that might just shift the way you think about motherhood.

 

Episode Highlights:

[0:02] – Kicking off the conversation: What really makes a “good mother”?

[1:44] – The constant self-questioning of moms: Am I doing this right?

[2:11] – The shocking case of Ruby Franke—what happens when motherhood is all about image and control.

[6:37] – How we model (or reject) our own mothers’ parenting styles.

[10:14] – One of the most critical traits of a good mom: Knowing where you end and your child begins.

[12:30] – The emotional burden some mothers put on their children (and how to break the cycle).

[15:29] – The role of discipline: Leading with warmth vs. using shame and control.

[21:10] – Parenting different personalities: How to adapt to your child’s unique needs.

[23:53] – Why the parent-child relationship is always top-down (yes, even when your kids are adults).

[31:15] – What our own kids say makes a good mom (these answers might surprise you!).

[36:35] – The lifelong impact of emotional safety and feeling unconditionally loved.

[42:42] – Why telling kids an age-appropriate truth is crucial for their stability and trust.

[46:24] – The viral “Door Holder #3” moment that perfectly captures great parenting. 

 

Resources:

Door Holder Number 3 Video: https://youtube.com/shorts/T8AlmEjmtLU?si=1-eDTo6MSAesGgkj 

For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!

If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!

 

Colette Fehr:

Hi everyone. Welcome back to insights from the couch. Today, we're talking about what makes a good mother. This is a big topic with a lot of emotional, controversial opinions, no doubt, and Laura and I have really kept our own perspectives close to the vest, so you're going to be hearing this conversation unfold very authentically and genuinely in real time. Today, we want to hear from you too, particularly about this. Email us at info, at insights from the couch. Message us on Instagram and let us know what you think about motherhood and what makes a good mother. All right, let's get into it. I can't even wait.

Laura Bowman:

Yes, I love this topic. I mean, particularly because I think I certainly filter a lot of my experience through this question of like, if I do X, am I being a good mother when I make this decision, am I being a good mother? And I hear clients talking that way all the time, like they're asking themselves constantly, am I being a good

Colette Fehr:

mother? You're asking yourself that constantly.

Laura Bowman:

I mean, I think I filter a lot of my choices through that, like, not not that particular question, but like, how does this choice impact my ability to be a mother, and is it negatively impacting it or positively impacting it? So it's definitely a counterpoint that I'm bouncing off a lot. And I care. I think, I think we all care about being great moms,

Colette Fehr:

unless we're a virulent narcissist or sociopath. Yes,

Laura Bowman:

I think even though I think even they want to be considered mother

Colette Fehr:

considered different than being one. So I have to on that point. I have to jump in as we get into this topic and just say I am reading. Do you know who Ruby Frank is, the mommy Yes, blogger, that's going to jail.

Laura Bowman:

Yes, I saw her daughter get to an interview. Okay,

Colette Fehr:

well, I want to hear about that because her name's Sherry, and I think it's Frank. I don't know if it's Frank or Frankie. It's F, R, a, n, k, e. I was not really familiar with this story, but her daughter, Sherry, the eldest daughter of, I think six kids, has written a memoir, memoir experience. I'm halfway through it. So the timing of this episode is so interesting because Ruby Frank is the antithesis of a good mother. First of all, she is clearly extremely mentally ill, this woman and either a narcissist, sociopath, both. I don't even care about being delicate, about not diagnosing somebody I've never met. She's just an abhorrent person. She abuses her kids. And, you know, I don't want to give spoilers to anyone who might be interested in reading the book. It's so well written, it's less about the details of the abuse at least so far, and more about the inner landscape of this woman, Sherry, and what she went through having this mother who was so withholding and judgmental and all about image, long before they had this video blog. So let me just give a couple details to frame this. Basically, they're strict Mormons in Utah. They live near Provo Utah, and the parents met in college. Both of the parents were strict Mormons. They met in college. They got married a couple weeks later, Ruby, the mother, had a couple kids by the time she was 21 years old, and she started by getting her daughter up every morning at age five, every morning at 6am and making her sit in front of the piano and play and have a smile on her face. If she didn't have the right expression, she'd be smacked across the face. Okay, so that just gives you a little flavor for the kind of environment. And there's this one moment where Sherry, the daughter, says she's writing in her journal, and she's trying to come to terms with, how do I I know what I have to do to survive this environment, which is to say nothing, do what makes my mother happy, right? And so many of our clients have lesser versions of this dynamic that we hear about in therapy, or the same kind of version, but then reconciling This doesn't feel right. And one day she's writing in her journal, and she says, I realize I don't think my mother loves me. Yeah, at about 11 years old,

Laura Bowman:

and so she's writing that at 11, she has that realization, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

yeah. And you know, she was right in this case, the. Woman. It doesn't sound like this woman is capable of love, but yet she built her career, and they built riches off of being a mommy blogger, and they called it passenger aid or eight, passenger, eight, passenger, I think, meaning the two parents and the six kids, and this woman, Ruby, built an image of this beautiful, perfect life, raising her children Mormon, doing everything just right, being a real mom, and it was all performative and all bullshit while she was abusing the kids. And at some point, she got involved with a licensed therapist named So, creepy.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, were they, like, romantically involved, or, like, what was the story there? I

Colette Fehr:

think there might be something like that, but I haven't gotten to that part yet. But Jodi operated out of sort of a cult mindset and really brainwashed clients and started to take control of the decisions Ruby and her husband made with their kids, and so all these punishments would be very psychologically manipulative and withholding, like you don't get food unless you behave the right way. Some of the kids were starving. So it's it got really extreme. It's a fascinating story, but it brings to mind this as we're contemplating what makes a good mother. Some people really don't have a good mother. So how do we then learn how to be as moms?

Laura Bowman:

I don't know. It's like a tough question. I

Colette Fehr:

mean, do you model your mothering after your mother, or what you didn't like about your mother, or what you you know, where do you get Do you draw from society, both

Laura Bowman:

and right? Both, both and I mean, I just feel like I've always had, like, strong instincts around this stuff. Agreed, there's things my mother did really well that I thought, like I'm taking this part with me, and there are things she didn't do so well that I thought, I'm never taking this part with me. Yeah, I think I feel that way too. Yeah. And I'm pretty like, good at discerning that in my own gut. But I don't think everybody is. I mean, I know people aren't.

Colette Fehr:

I do hear a lot of people say like, Oh, does that make me a bad mom? You know, I don't have that because I don't think I tend to be that lit messy, according to society in general. I think I operate out of my own instincts, and I feel like a part I got right is the attachment piece in terms of being responsive, nurturing, supportive, there for you kind of responses. However, with an older perspective, I realized that, like at certain times, particularly going through my divorce, there was a period that I was very distracted and stressed and I wasn't as present as I should have been, and I've had to talk that through with my kids, like their memory of that time was not great, and so I've tried to take accountability for that, but also give myself grace around I did the best I could at the time. You know what? I didn't do the best I could. I did. Looking back, I wish I had done some of that differently, but I didn't know what I didn't know at that time, yeah?

Laura Bowman:

Or phases, like, really tax you too. I mean, like, it's hard, yeah? I think there's, like, a whole bunch of different ways, different types of moms. Like, there's so many, like, I was not the logistical mom. Like, I was the mom where, like, we'd go for, like, a beach trip, and my friends would show up with like, coolers and like changes of clothes, and, you know, five different bottles of sunscreen. And I'd like, roll up with like, a bottle of sunscreen in my purse. And I was like, clearly, like, didn't understand the assignment, like I do. I was, like, a little haphazard and stuff like that, I think. And I think, oh, shit, I didn't, like, pack any food or and so I think there's all different types of, like, being a good mom, but the core traits the beating heart of what is really a good mom comes down to that attachment piece that you're talking about. Like, it doesn't matter what you're about, but if you have a couple of those core pieces, I think you really and I I wrote them down because I was like, when I was thinking about this, I was like, what do I really think if you pulled everything away, is like the good mom, and I think,

Colette Fehr:

okay for me, and then I'll tell you mine. Yeah, I want to hear

Laura Bowman:

so the first one I have is knowing where the child, where you end as a mom and the child begins, and not like reversing that frame at all, like where. It's like you think you're in a your child is an extension of you, or your child needs to take care of your needs, like you have a real firm idea of like, this is me, this is what I'm responsible for. And they're their own unique being

Colette Fehr:

so important, so important. Don't we see that so much in therapy, where people are trying to live vicariously through their children, controlling their children,

Laura Bowman:

yes, yes, or just like, blended with their children and they don't even want to be but, like, I've been there in moments, but you got to pull yourself out of that.

Colette Fehr:

We can all get blended in moments. But I'm talking about people, because I think this goes hand in hand, where they really their ego is invested in their child's accomplishments. It's not really about the good of the child. It's really about how this reflects on me and what it says about me, and they attempt to hyper control their children's choices. Sometimes that comes from anxiety, but sometimes it comes from an ego based need to be in control and to see that person as instead of a separate person as a reflection of them. Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

and that's that version, but also the the child's there to care for, the parents needs. That version is really gross, too. I agree. No, they like the guilt piece where you're guilting your kid. The child is there to make sure that you feel a certain way. That's

Colette Fehr:

the parents emotions. Yeah. And what I see in therapy, and I know you do too, is women in their 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s who because of that childhood dynamic, even if they intellectually see it for what it is now, they really still struggle to unblend and unhook from the guilt, right? Like I have a client whose mother, the phone calls with her are so absurd, the mother's always in a tizzy. She wants to run all of her emotions on, you know, it's like a Drama Triangle, yeah, where the mother is the victim, and she's an angry victim, and she expects her daughter to like, make her feel better, be a constant, unequivocally available sounding board for all of this Mother's problems and needs, and really doesn't have any respect that this daughter might have her own life, her own fluctuating emotional bandwidth, nothing.

Laura Bowman:

Oh, I see that too, you know, and I think that so in the in the inverse, the people who get this right and understand that, like, I'm responsible for myself, and my child is my, their own person, and they're not responsible for me. That, to me, is like, step one, yeah, of like, good mother, baseline. So I have two others that I think are core. I bet if I thought about it longer, I'd probably think of more. I think that there's like, and you've spoken about this is like when your parent has genuine enthusiasm and curiosity for the person that you are and the way you see the world, like, you know you've said to me before, like, oh, you know my dad will give me critical feedback, but I know he thinks I'm the best thing since sliced bread. Yep, right. And it's like, when you have that knowing that your parent really sees you and really values the way you see the world and and it's just like a felt sense of like, they get me, they're paying attention, they're curious about me, and they're just so fucking glad to see me, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

and they support you, like, you know, your back,

Laura Bowman:

yes, yeah, yeah. So that's two, yeah. And then three, I think, is, like, when you're a real, like, good, sturdy, predictable leader, and like, you don't rely on, like, authoritarian crap, like using harshness, shame or criticism as like tools for learning, you're really using kindness and warmth to got to lead.

Colette Fehr:

I agree completely, and I think that, you know, it is a parent's responsibility to teach children how to be in the world and to have some structure and discipline. And that, admittedly, is not my strong suit. It was a problem for me to be divorced because I'm a very laissez faire parent. I'm a very laissez faire human. I didn't have a very structured or disciplined upbringing. In fact, I don't know that I really had any structure at all to my childhood, and that worked great for me, but as a result, as a mom, since I had my kids at a young age, and I got divorced at a young age, I don't think I did a great job with the discipline part, and I didn't have another person there to provide that however, where I'm. Going with all of this is that you can discipline and give structure from a place of kindness, love, encouragement, teaching, there's no space for harshness, exacting. You know, I don't believe in corporal punishment, and I I have to sit here often and listen to clients describe it, and many of them are, are fans of it, and I respect that. That's their view. But I don't, I don't

Laura Bowman:

think it works. I don't think it works. My mom is a big fan of, like, pulling control, like, I mean, I we had an incident when she was down where my son, he is, like, a new driver. He's been driving for probably a year, and he is doing a big project, and he took, he took a friend and drove to Jacksonville to go do an interview. And like, I was like, I did not feel comfortable with him driving to Jacksonville with, like, this kid in his car, just like, didn't feel right to me, but he he did it anyway. He did it anyway, even though I was like, take an Uber. I'll pay for the Uber. Like, really film at you driving. So my mom was here for that incident. He comes home, he gets home safely, and she's like, well, what are you going to do when he gets home? I said, I'm going to really talk to him about, like, the choice he made, because I didn't think it was, like, a safe, responsible choice. She's like, Well, are you gonna say, Hey, buddy, hand me the keys, like she wanted me to, like, take control and, like, one up him and put him in his place. Yeah. And I said, Mom, I don't think it works. Like, I don't parent like that. And and I don't really think it works. And those were her instincts, you know, especially with my brother, to go head to head with him all the time. And it just, it really like they just don't, they don't have a relationship. And I think it's because that instinct is bad. Yeah,

Colette Fehr:

yeah. I agree completely. And, you know, I want to talk about some of the the things that to add on to yours, because I agree with all of yours, but this story that you're telling makes me think of also another concept that I think is important, which is, they talk about the right fit, right? And I do Emotionally Focused couples therapy. And so couples come to me together for the first intake session, and then they each come in individually, and I do more of an attachment history questionnaire, my own version of the adult attachment interview, which is an assessment, and it's a lot about what was your childhood like? It's not about blaming parents or hyper focusing on the past. It's more about understanding, what did you learn about how to connect? Were there people in your life who were there for you? Did you learn to go to somebody as a source of comfort, or was there no predictable, reliable, consistent adult available, and so you had to learn to survive by relying on yourself, tuning out and dissociating whatever it may be, not to mention abuse, right? And we know that benign neglect, even in childhood, has a powerful effect, and that emotional neglect in childhood can be even more painful and damaging than physical abuse. I'm not trying to minimize either. They're both horrible, but there is this idea of like the right fit when you learn to do therapy from an attachment perspective, I am a very imaginative, emotionally sensitive, quirky little MF, er, okay. I have stuff going on in my head. Particulars. I'm sensitive to my environment, like I was like this as a young child. No one else in my family is like this. If my parents listen to this episode, they will be laughing right now, because I just had all these little quirks, like I made up that I had seven sisters, and I would, I mean, I carried it really far. I would pretend they were in the house when friends came over. I would make my parents lie so many different things. I woke up every night and went into my parents room. There were elaborate rituals. So I really believe if I had a stern I know if I had the kind of stern parent who spanked or I can't even imagine how my psyche would be like, I wouldn't have been able to handle that, even if it was responsibly rendered. You know, I know my husband wasn't like, beaten or anything, but he was given the belt a couple times, and then he's like, You didn't have to, you didn't have to get the belt off him, because the fact that you knew the belt could happen, you know, kept you in line, right? But for me, I'd be in a therapist office for 20 years trying to, like, do EMDR, to process that trauma. So there is something about you might have a parent that's like, great for another kid, but isn't. A good fit for you, and that's a big part of being a mother, too. Are you a great match for the disposition of your child? Yeah, and that's I completely agree with that, and there are some and, you know, I have three different kids, and I feel like I'm probably a better fit for some of them than others. But then, then I also think that it's beholden on the parent to figure out the kid they have, and parent the kid they have, totally agree, rather than the kid that they like hope to have. You know, can you get curious and get to the level of the kid that you actually and be flexible and be flexible and adaptable, exactly? So I think that's got to be on the list, being flexible and adaptable to the needs of your specific child, right? Are they on the autism spectrum? Are they really creative and sensitive? Are they sort of, you know, independent? Do they not want to be touched? Right? One of my kids. I'm very affectionate, and I want to, like, hug my kids every five seconds. I have a kid who does not want to be touched ever, you know, and, and that may sound

Unknown:

like one of those, too. And then I have, I have one kid who only,

Laura Bowman:

the only way I can connect with him is by sitting and tickling, like, tickling him, and that's the only time he talks, yeah, and then the other kid doesn't want to be touched. But like, talks all the time, yeah. Like, you gotta, like, know those you know idiosyncratic things, and respect them exactly,

Colette Fehr:

and and try to, because I do believe also, as we get into my little list, this wasn't on it, but I think this is important to me, a parent, child relationship is always top down forever, even when your child is an adult. I love this part. Yes, it is your job as a parent to think of it doesn't mean you're never gonna fuck up. I'm not saying that, because, God knows, I've fucked up plenty of times, but I've created a relationship with my daughters that is secure. I believe they know they're loved, and they feel comfortable telling me stuff about their life, and they feel comfortable telling me when I've hurt them or done something they don't like, and I it is my job as a parent, whether they're 2545 or 15, in my opinion, not to let them disrespect me, but to listen to their emotional experience, how I have impacted them. Doesn't matter what my intentions are. It's not my ego that's on the line and my idea of myself. It's my job to say, tell me more about what you experienced. I hear you. I get it. I thank you for helping me understand what it's like in your shoes when I did that. I'm so sorry that I hurt you. Let's what can we learn from this? How can I do better? How can I be there for you? There are things I have heard from my children about their experience through my divorce, that in my opinion, I'm just going to say this. I'm not invalidating it. They don't listen to my podcast, and I've said this to them anyway, but that I don't really that feels so far fetched to me and feel almost like what they've been conditioned to believe I could be wrong, but that's not what I tell them. What I tell them is that was your experience. I hear you. You know, I'm sorry that even if I was working three jobs, which is what was going on at one period of time, right, that they felt that I wasn't as present as I could have been. So I always think it's a parent's job to remember you're the parent and I'm here to provide unconditional love and support. Because if you don't get that from a mother who in the getting it from Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

and I love that, you said it just like that. Because I think a lot of people feel like I'm the parent and I deserve respect. And that's the frame that a lot of people go in with, like, I deserve respect. I don't want to hear anything about myself that doesn't jive with who I think I am. And that's the frame they hold. But that's it. That's the one, and that's goes back to being properly individuated, exactly, and, yeah, holding the structure

Colette Fehr:

and individuation, for our listeners, is when you have a strong sense of self as autonomous doesn't mean you're not connected to other people, but you know where you end and they begin. You don't put your shit on other people. You don't expect people to rescue you, enable. You manage your emotions. You don't sit in a victim stance. You take an empowered stance where you know life and your choices are your responsibility.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, lot of mothers drop the ball right right here. Totally, totally.

Colette Fehr:

One thing I feel like I've done well is that. I like, I don't put any of my stuff on my kids. I mean, I hope they'd agree with that. I think they would, but I don't. I'm not living vicariously through them, and I don't feel like my parents did that to me. So that's something positive I've taken from my childhood. But I want to say a couple more. This goes along the lines of this that two things, and then I want to give a shout out to Sue Johnson. So first of all, I think that acceptance, and we're talking about this through all of this, but I think acceptance is one of the biggest prerequisites, not to mention gifts you can give your child that you fundamentally accept them for who they are. And let's be honest, we all have some ego. We all have some desire. Some of it is even just, I want certain things for my kids because I don't want them to suffer. It's not about my ego. I just, I want them to have a good life, but you have to let your kids be who they are, and really making a child feel accepted for their personality, their clothing choices, their life decisions. And this goes along with letting them make mistakes. So this is my second is not letting children. Yes, you have to parent, but I also think you have to let children have some natural consequences, and this is what's getting lost in the era of lawn mower and helicopter parenting. Is that over enabling kids doing everything for them. I mean, parents writing college applications, parents obsessing over where their kids go to school, parents trying to prevent their children from making mistakes. It's good parenting, yeah, but

Laura Bowman:

that goes right back to not knowing where you end and they begin. Like, it's the intolerance in the parents body of like, not being a lot like able to let that kit fail, because then that feels like a failure for them, right?

Colette Fehr:

So I think it comes from three things, right? I think it comes from that. I think sometimes it comes from, like, ego and wanting certain things that reflect well on you. And I think sometimes it comes from just fear that, like, my kids aren't going to be okay in the world if I don't hyper manage, yes.

Laura Bowman:

Oh, definitely, definitely. I agree. I agree.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah. So to me, those are really, really important things, and where I feel like I've grown as a person is that I didn't realize how, you know, I'm not a structured person. My childhood was very my parents were separated for a long time. Eventually divorced. I floated back from one house to the other. I did very well, like that, you know, like I didn't bother me at all to have two houses. It didn't bother me to have my parents separated. In fact, I preferred it. I really what bothered me was fighting when that happened, it bothered me so to me, my parents separated and feeling happier in their lives. I thought that was fine. I like to kind of float around. My children didn't have the same experience like they've shared with me that it was really hard on them to have to, like, pack their stuff and go from house to house. And it sounds crazy now as years into being a therapist and working with relationships that I was so surprised by that I didn't anticipate it because I didn't experience it, right? So I also think part of being a good parent is openness to learn as you go and be constantly evaluating and taking an inventory. You know, we all have blind spots here. You have your personality. You had your experience. You don't know what you don't know. But being willing to say, oh, you know what, I didn't know that, right? Sounds crazy that I might not know that my kids didn't love going back and I mean, I don't know that. I thought they loved it, but it was, yeah, it didn't impact them the same way it impacted me. But being willing to say, Okay, I didn't know that doesn't make me a bad mom. But like, what could I do to make this better for them and be more understanding and responsive?

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, no, I agree. I am. Like, I even have blind spot. Well, we all have blind spots, but my, one of mine, is I when I'm thinking or I'm worried, or I'm just, you know, in my head, I'm in my head a lot, like I'm in my head a lot that's just part of me. And I can get quiet and sort of just not ruminate, but I'm sorting in my head, like, what I what I want to do. And that impacts my kids, like they've given me the feedback of, like, you know, and when I can see them checking in on me, like, in a worried way, I'm like, wow, whoa. Like, I don't want them to be doing that, you know. So I, I really try to, i. Be right up front with like what's going on with me, because I don't want them to all of a sudden feel like they need to take care of me, or wonder if something's wrong, but too. But I'm oblivious to when I get into that state. I can't see it very well, but I can see it reflected in them. So I switch gears pretty quickly, because I don't want them to feel like they need to take care of me.

Colette Fehr:

No, I think this goes back to what we're saying, right? It's a parent top down thing. I don't want that either, and it's beautiful that your kids will tell you that and then you course correct. I mean, I think that's being a good mom. It's not not making mistakes. You're not even making a mistake. You're just being you, but it's being willing and available to assess yourself and take feedback and say, Oh, I just like to be up in my head, but it's impacting these relationships that are important to me. So let me course correct Exactly.

Laura Bowman:

And I actually asked my kids what. I actually asked my kids, what do you think makes a good mom? Because I was like, we're doing this episode. You want to hear what my kids had to say? Yes, well, my son had a different feedback than my daughter. One first thing he said was safety, someone to go to. There's your attachment frame.

Colette Fehr:

That's the Sue Johnson stuff. Yeah, that was

Laura Bowman:

his first instinct. I love that. Then the second, this is such a boy, right? He said food security, like, basically, just keep feeding me and we'll be good,

Colette Fehr:

right? It's the child version of, feed me. Fuck me. Flatter me. We talked about, like men want from their wives. This

Laura Bowman:

is like, I think my son would be like, forever. Just grateful if I just was, like, in the kitchen, right

Colette Fehr:

if you're emotionally available and feeding him, Yes, I mean, that could be the, that could be the like caption for a good mom, right there.

Laura Bowman:

Totally, just keep feeding me. And then he said, then he, like, laughed, and he's like, goods and services. Like, he loves it. Like, when I make his bed, he's an active service guy. So like, if I'm just, like, literally barefoot in the kitchen and cleaning. He's like, just happy. And he said, like nesting, like that, we have like a safe nest. So I thought that was, like, beautiful. I love that. And then he said, he said these two things. He said a model, he's like, I you know, like somebody who models, like, a good weight, good stuff. And then he said, a woman, a mom that feels good about herself, I love that. I thought that was real. This is a 16 year old. It's amazing, good observations. And then my daughter said that she thought that the like real core was stability and predictability and modeling emotional and physical health. And she said, not a mom who puts herself first in a selfish way, but a mom who put prioritizes her needs.

Colette Fehr:

I love it. It sounds like you're raising really emotionally intelligent, healthy children. Those are beautiful. I thought those were beautiful. They are beautiful. I know. I wish I asked my daughters. I don't know what they would say, but I do know I've gotten feedback from them, that they feel like I'm always there for them, that they can tell me anything. I know when there's like a scared moment where they're sad or hurting, I'm the first person they come to. They have their friends call me. They'll call me on speaker with I mean, I know part of it maybe is because I'm a therapist, but I also think it's been that way forever, and I know they don't worry about me in that way, like they are a child. Should be free to focus on their own life. Obviously, if I had a medical situation or something was wrong, they would care and be supportive, but it's not their job to go, oh my god, Mom, are you okay? Or, you know, it's just to your point. You want to be responsive to your kids, yeah, yeah. And that's like the Sue Johnson stuff. So I'm glad you brought up emotional safety, because that's another baseline given feeling emotional safety with anyone, I mean, is a prerequisite, I think, in relationship. But if it's not there with a mother and child, it's a really, really hard thing to overcome. You shouldn't have to watch your words, worry if you make a mistake, be thinking about how your mother's evaluating. You worry about performing or earning love. This is a big thing. I see in therapy, people who feel like they have to achieve, meet standards to be loved. There is nothing more. And I think studies show this, that when you have, this is the Sue Johnson heart of it. I was going to say a parent. She talks about it in the sense of relationships. And you know, her work is based on the pioneering work of Dr John Bowlby back in the 40s, who first identity. When infants are crying, right? They need an adult to respond to them. It's based on what she calls a R, E, being accessible, responsive and engaged. And in fact, mothers don't have to there's a concept called the good enough mother, and that means that a mother doesn't have to be perfect. Doesn't have to respond to every bid for connection. In fact, that's impossible, but mothers who are responsive, most of the time, they're accessible, meaning I'm here if you need me, oops, I wasn't there. I repair with you, and now I'm here, right? They create a secure base, which is a lot of what your son's talking about. And the concept of a secure base means you, my mom, are a place. It's like home, you know, station and space, right? Like you you go, you check in, you get fed, you're heard, you're loved, you're accepted, and that gives you the confidence and security to go out and explore the world, develop yourself and individuate and that responsiveness is when I look at you with tears in my eyes, do you mirror back to me that you're with me in that experience. You don't even have to feel empathy. You just have to be willing to be there, be responsive to that emotion and be engaged, right? Be present most of the time, some of the time, yes, yes, not perfect.

Laura Bowman:

No, no. Mother is going to be perfect. But I mean, and this is like, as we're like, unpacking all of this, it occurs to me that, like it's it's simple, but there's a lot to it, in a way, and mothers are so critical for helping children figure out what love is like and what their self worth is like, yeah and yeah. When this goes wrong, it can be very hard to put it back together. This is what why people are in lifetimes of therapy trying to feel like they have to earn love or do something in order to be loved, because they never felt intrinsically loved or seen

Colette Fehr:

right? And people absolutely can and do triumph, but, but it's a big wound. And so I think what I'm trying to impart right now is that, you know, something I think my mom did well, really well, was letting me be me, you know, like I Well, she didn't let me have long hair when I was three, but I then insisted on wearing pink ballet tights on my head so that they could be a long hair, because she wouldn't let me have long hair, and my best hysterical, yeah. And I wore it everywhere I went, proudly in the grocery store with this. And then my aunt made me a hat, a wool hat with long brown braids, and I wore the hat in the summertime, like with a bathing suit at the pool, because I wanted long hair. So, you know, I was allowed to have my feisty, independent spirit, you know. And I think along with that, and I always felt loved. I always felt unconditionally loved, and I was always fed, I mean, and taken care of and nurtured in those ways. But I really think for our listeners, the most important thing, the heart of everything we're talking about, is really being a safe, accepting, emotionally engaged, soft place for your children to land in the long run that is going to give them such a leg up in life. There's actually plenty of room to make a lot of mistakes.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, if you get that part, and I think this is where the part where I think a lot of parents screw up a little bit, is that there's so many accouterments in our culture for kids, right? Like, so, you know, you're raising your kids to play sports and you're at every game, or you're, you know, traveling with your like, this is something my mother did really well. Like, she was, she exposed us to a lot. She was a great, like, educational mom, you know, she read us a lot of books. She like, made education such a huge priority. I mean, I went to, I love, a bazillion Broadway shows. Yeah, we were in Europe, traveling around, watching, like, the passion play. And overall, you know, and she was, like, she was just very culturally astute, and she gave us a lot of experiences. And yet that does not take the place of what we're talking about. You can do all the things, and you can think you're doing all the things, but if you don't have this attachment piece, this basic, soft, trusting place to follow. All where you're accepting your kids and really showing them I've got your back. It doesn't matter how many books you read them or where you take them on vacation. So like, let's not put the cart before

Colette Fehr:

the horse, right? And how you pack the beach bag with the 8000 sun blocks and activities and snacks and the birthday parties. None of it matters at the end of the day. What creates a secure human being and a successful adult is being loved unconditionally, being imperfect and willing to take accountability and being there like have your kids back. Those things go a long way. You I hear from people in therapy, oh, you know, my parents, maybe we weren't the most emotionally expressive household, and sometimes people are like, I'm having to learn how to have that language now more as an adult, but I always knew I was loved. Yeah, there is no substitute for knowing that intrinsic, knowing that, yeah, yeah. See later, you don't right. And I see so many parents with so much anxiety, and I relate to it, you know. And I became a mom at 27 and I had postpartum anxiety and just tremendous, like I felt like I had to do everything right to the point of, did I do enough moments of brain stimulation? And was she not? I mean, it was so much pressure in the modern parenting, and this is almost 24 years ago. It's worse. Now. It's worse, yeah, and I think the basics of really being loving loving and available are stayed the

Laura Bowman:

same. Yeah, they're timeless, yeah. So put most of your energy into this, the stuff we're talking about today, the other I just want to tag it on to the end, because I think it's important, is to tell your kids like an age appropriate truth about what's going on in the house? I think there's a lot of like, secrecy, or like, parents want to protect their kids from certain things, and I don't think you need to editorialize on that. In fact, I don't think it's your you should you shouldn't do it, but they're high. Don't, but don't lie. I think there's such like, like, a destabilizing force that happens when a kid can feel that something is really wrong and the parent isn't telling everything like a truth? Yeah, that's not helpful, guys. So like to the extent you can tell some version of the truth that's gonna make sense to your kids and help them maintain continuity is really important.

Colette Fehr:

I agree. I'm glad you brought that up, because it's actually psychologically damaging to invalidate the felt sense of reality with pretending everything's hunky dory when a child can clearly tell. You know, the biggest thing I see, of course, is around divorce, separation, or parents going through a rough period, don't burden your child with the details of their your marriage. Of course, that's not appropriate and that's damaging. But acknowledging like, hey, you know, we're working through like, a hard time, and there's nothing for you to worry about. I'm the adult and I'm going to handle it and I'm okay. It's gotta also be frame, yes, keeping the frame of like, I'm the grown up. I can handle it. I'm fine, and you are free to be a kid. But yes, what you're picking up on, that vibe, it's real. It's real here. Yep, really important. So did we cover it today? You know what it is like? Have you seen like, I wish we could, like, put this clip somewhere. Have you seen that clip of that little kid who comes into the car, he's British, and he says, I've got my part in the in the like, what is it the Nativity? Have you seen this? No. And the mom goes, Oh, what did you get? She goes, I got a classic roll. And she's like, You got a classic pot? Did you? And he's like, yes. And then she says, Are you Joseph? And he's like, no. She's like, Are you one of the three wise men? And he goes, No. And she's like, Well, tell me, what did you get? And he goes, I'm door holder number three, I'll be holding doors. And right away,

Laura Bowman:

this mom on cue, beautifully goes, Oh, fantastic. Your door, holder number three, are you quite pleased then? And he's like, yes, holding doors. I'm gonna be wearing brown. But like, this parent got it so right in that these moments where it was like she matched her child's energy, she was enthusiastic, she didn't come in with, like, her pre preconceived notions of, what do you mean? You're freaking door holder number three, you. She was so into her kid. I like, we need to put that somewhere, because it's just a micro moment, yeah, of how to really be a safe place for a kid.

Colette Fehr:

I it's beautiful. I think we should link it in the show notes. Do you have it? I want to see it. I do. I'll send it to you. See I was parented like that, where my parents were always excited, even if I had the smallest and most inconsequential role. And I feel like I've parented like that so much so that my kids are like, Oh my god, Mom, you're like, so excited, and we, like, just walked across the street, you know? But you know what? I'd rather err on that side. And I just want to concede that if you weren't parented that way, that's very easy for me and instinctive, but because I was parented that way, and if you had the kind of parent was, like, what? You're the door holder, you're not Jesus, baby Jesus, like,

Laura Bowman:

who I need to call, right?

Colette Fehr:

Like, what the heck happened? And you should have been, and there are, there's a lot of that. So if you didn't have that modeled for you, your instinct might be to be like, Wait, who got Joseph right?

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, who did they that kid? Not that kid, right? But if your

Colette Fehr:

kid's like, I'm an Nativity and I am a piece of straw on the floor that the mule is shitting on in the manger. Be excited. You

Laura Bowman:

know, it was like, literally, my daughter's experience, she was like the ass of the dragon in the play, like she was, she was the ass of the dragon, but you're

Colette Fehr:

excited for her. And that's what parenting is about. Life is hard and cruel, and there is so much fucked up shit going on out there be a safe place. That's a safe

Laura Bowman:

place. That's it. I think we did it today. All

Colette Fehr:

right, I it was fun to talk about. I have to say, if I became a mom at 51 I feel like I would be in such a different place to be more patient and more wise, but that's not the way it goes. You're glad I did

Laura Bowman:

it when I was I made, I made mistakes. I think I'm a better mother now, Me too. Me too. Yeah, I definitely better not mother now, but I do not have the energy. I mean, parenting three kids like just about I'm not saying that in this phase.

Colette Fehr:

I think babies are adorable. I want absolutely nothing to do with it.

Laura Bowman:

Same, same. Be cute over

Colette Fehr:

there. Yeah. All right, thanks guys for listening. Please let us know what you think, if you have comments, if you disagree with us, we want to hear it all. Insights from the couch.org. Info at insights from the couch.org. Is our email insights from the couch.org. Is our website. Drop us a line, send in your questions. We'd love to hear from you, and thanks for listening to another episode of insights from the couch. We will see you next time bye, guys, you