Insights from the Couch - Mental Health at Midlife

Ep.51: The Power of Secure Attachment: Co-Regulation, Connection, and Creating Lasting Connections with Tara Boothby

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 4 • Episode 51

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How do we create deep, secure, and lasting relationships—not just in romance, but in parenting, friendships, and even with ourselves? In this episode, we sit down with Tara Boothby, psychologist, author of Love and Love’s Energy, and expert in attachment science. She takes us on a journey into the heart of connection, breaking down the complexities of attachment styles, emotional safety, and the power of co-regulation.

We explore the difference between being loved and lovable, how attachment wounds impact our relationships, and why true security is something we earn over time. Plus, Tara shares her own evolution from skepticism about attachment theory to fully embracing what she calls “love science.” 

Tara Boothby, Registered Psychologist, and Author of "Love and Love's Energy: How Attachment Science Proves That Love Nurtures Our Biological Nature, Impacts Our Positive View of Ourselves, of Others, and of God, and Teaches Us All How to Love."

 

Episode Highlights:

[00:03] - Welcome! Introducing Tara Boothby & the power of attachment science.
[02:23] - How Tara went from doubting attachment theory to embracing “love science”.
[04:26] - The truth about attachment styles: It’s not as simple as you think.
[06:36] - What it really means to be securely attached (hint: it’s a process, not a label).
[09:20] - The hidden fears behind our relationship struggles.
[14:02] - Co-regulation vs. self-regulation: Why we heal faster in relationships.
[19:25] - The importance of repair in relationships & why small moments matter most.
[32:02] - “Earning” security: Can we heal from past attachment wounds?
[40:26] - Knowing when to press pause (or end) on unhealthy relationships.
[50:11] - Loving yourself: The foundation of all secure relationships.

 

Resources:

For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!

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Colette Fehr:

Hi everyone. Welcome back to insights from the couch. We have a great episode today on Attachment science and how to create more securely attached relationships, not just with your romantic partner, but that too, also in parent child relationships and friendships. What does it really mean to be vulnerable? How do you create safety? How do we cope with the fact that we've all been abandoned, rejected and wounded? How do we make the relationships we are built for, that we are wired for, happen and make them good and secure and loving? And we've got an amazing guest here with us today, Dr Tara Boothby from Canada. She is the author of Love and loves energy, and she's a psychologist in Alberta and British Columbia, where it is extremely cold. She's worked at sojourn psychology in Sherwood Park, Alberta as a psychologist, supervisor and Case Manager for almost 20 years. She is also a wife and a mother, an extremely talented author, and she is an experiential attachment focused therapist, a certified Emotionally Focused couples, family and individual therapist and supervisor, as well as drawing from EMDR, the circle of security and meaning centered theories. We are so excited to have Tara here with us today to talk about her book and attachment. Let's dive right in. Okay, so let's just dive into talking about your book. And actually, can you start by maybe sharing a little bit about your own personal journey, even to wanting to get into attachment work? Yeah? Oh, that's a big, bold question, right? Because as much as you want to share, yeah, I think it's funny, because when I started out in the field of psychology, I kind of thought attachment theory was nonsense. I felt rebellious against it. And I love that I know, and I just was, I was very judgmental of the theory because I didn't know anything about it. So I judged it before i i discovered what attachment theory is, and I prefer love science. I think Sue Johnson's term love science, it just makes more sense.

Tara Boothby:

Attachment is a difficult word to honor in that it's confusing. But again, John Bowlby, he's the father of attachment theory, so there's this honoring as well of his language, but I was much more in the meaning focused existential wheelhouse. And that was that was good too, because they they go hand in hand in just this, the corrective epiphany experiences that we're honoring in attachment work. So I thought it was kind of crap. And then I discovered the circle of security, which is a beautiful theory that comes out of the United States. It's about parenting. And the picture of parenting this circle where where the parents hands are holding the relationship, and the child goes out on the the top of the circle, the secure base to discover, and they come back in for safe haven. It made so much sense, and I felt like a corrective epiphany. I felt a very spiritual bond with with the circle of security. And then my my professional life kind of exploded. I was had some, you know, painful, collegial experiences, and I tricked myself into doing therapy by signing up for the externship, the Emotionally Focused Therapy. Step one, I'm like, I need to do something. But my pride didn't say, get a therapist. My pride said, do trainings.

Colette Fehr:

That's so honest. I've been

Unknown:

there. I've been there, me too, yeah, yeah.

Tara Boothby:

But it worked, and that was that was the beginning of just obsessing over attachment theory and love science. Love science is Sue's model is easier to understand. It is crazy making to try and understand attachment styles. What

Laura Bowman:

do you mean by that?

Colette Fehr:

And Tara, just keep in mind for our listeners, you know, I'm also a certified Emotionally Focused couples therapist, and Laura is well versed in this information as well. But for our listeners, a lot of this is really new, so I would love for you to clarify what you meant by that, but then also take us into a little bit about the way you understand Dr Sue Johnson's model of love science, because a lot of our listeners aren't familiar with that. Yeah.

Tara Boothby:

Okay, Sue will talk about the. The cycle in a relationship, and there's a pattern, and there's different parts of who we are that show up, they we get activated, and then the dynamic is escalated, and that's for couples that we see that in friendships, we see that between parents and children. We see that in our professional relationships as a therapist, as a psychologist, we feel it in the room totally. We're activated. And then, like for a therapist, an emotionally focused therapist, we feel that activation. I know I'm activated myself. A therapist says, let's move in. That changes a lot in our personal relationships, too. I'm like, oh, there's there's the emotional heat. So we're moving into the emotional heat worth everybody. But with attachment styles as well the complexity, we want to oversimplify it. I think we want to categorize attachment and we want to label attachment. I

Colette Fehr:

agree with you, Tara, that like especially in pop psychology. Now the whole thing is like, what's your attachment style? And it really makes me a little bonkers. I understand the human desire to come to terms with something by simplifying it and to understand ourselves better, and I certainly celebrate that. But it's not so simple. We fluctuate and we show up as avoidant in some relationships and context, and we show up as anxious and others, and we can be secure. And I really respect the fact that you're bringing attention to this, because it's not a neat, Pat little box the way people want it to be.

Tara Boothby:

I think that's beautiful. That's a great, great insight Colette, and it's we don't fit into a box. And so in my book, I simplified even further of like, sometimes we're mover inners or remover outers, and we will sense into one one nuance more than the other. But sometimes I move in for for CO regulation, and sometimes I move out for self regulation. And the more stability we have with our self love, the more we know and love our ourselves. We are whole people who are wholly loved. We are flawed and fabulous. The more I can trust that that's okay, the more secure ishness I have, the more ability to flex. Is this where I move in, or is this where I move out?

Colette Fehr:

So what you're saying right now, I just want to slow this down for a moment, because this is this is everything. And you just said it so beautifully and powerfully, right at the core of this, of having secure ish attachment. And I really like that you said that because if secure is not a state we arrive at and permanently hold on to, we're trying to be more secure in our attachment within ourselves, and more securely attached to our safe, reliable others, because that's when we thrive most in The world. And so that flexibility, the more we love ourselves, the more securely attached we are within, the more we can move in, and the more we can move out, and have the flexibility to determine when those moves make sense and not necessarily threaten the security and stability of our relationships as we make those nuanced moves, and we can narrate it better with more with more safety, yes,

Tara Boothby:

yes, and that's again, with the Emotionally Focused Therapy model. It really brings people to a sense of being embodied. Yes. The more we are living in our body, the more we know our perceptions and our emotions and our like Virginia Satir would say our feelings about our feelings, yes, and the more we know, our deep down attachment needs and our attachment fears, those things that get us in our fight, flight, freeze and fawn. So when we're in a in a trauma response, no matter the level of that trauma response, then I am pressing in because I'm afraid my need won't get met, or I'm fleeing or or, you know, withdrawing away because I'm afraid of my attachment. You know, my attachment fear is really I'm afraid of my need. I'm afraid to need, right?

Colette Fehr:

And so let's, can we try to grant because this is so big and so important, and so many people don't really understand this, that underneath small moments, it's not just big, traumatic moments, underneath small moments where we get disconnected or something just says, Uh oh, this doesn't feel so safe. We're good anymore with a friend, with a parent, with a partner, there's fear, there's attachment fear, sometimes we're afraid to even have needs often, and we know this as therapists, people have no idea what those attachment needs are, right? Those core needs to know you matter, you're. Are important, that you're lovable, that you're good enough, right? I mean, it's so fundamental to humanity. So I'm trying to think, can we give like a little example, so that people understand what we're talking about, about these interactional patterns? Yes,

Tara Boothby:

yeah. So first, okay, so we can think of like a scenario, but yeah, maybe this will answer as well. Is a part of my book too. Is, is there's an argument? What? When I fell in love with attachment theory, it made so much sense about what love is. And in evolutionary psychology, we know that we have nature and we have nurture. And so from a spiritual perspective, it just made such a great big argument in my life for a loving God that it's not just that I have this nature. There's also this importance for nurture. So if it's okay, this is an example from being raised as a North American Evangelical Christian, was that I was raised to believe I was loved. Period that was the sentence, you are loved. But from the attachment theory perspective, love science, we are loved. We are lovable and we are loving. So really discovering that I am lovable just the way I am flawed and fabulous and lovable, flawed and fab, fabulous and loving that that's so transformative, and that's part of with EFT as well, is people start to recover their ability to love themselves and then to trust their own positive intentionality so that they can better love others and trust others positive intentionality. That's my experience that, like, that's the big epiphany that I had to say, Well, if we belong in loving relationships, there's got to be a cosmic love that we all belong to all of us. Yeah.

Laura Bowman:

So, so is this like, kind of like an EPI, like you describe it as an epiphany, like a revelation intellectually, or, like, where you say, I'm raised to believe that I am loved, but when you shift into I am lovable, flawed and fabulous just the way I am. Did you have a shift of experiences, or was this just a shift of mindset for you? Things really

Tara Boothby:

changed? Because, you know, within love, we can have correction. Love doesn't punish. We know this from the Emotionally Focused family therapy point of view, right? We we set up blocks, and lots of times in parenting, our blocks are violent, even if it's not beating our children, like I don't beat my children, but if I get mean, I that's violent, and it's it's hard to protest, it's hard to correct within the wheelhouse of love, but it's possible. So can you

Colette Fehr:

use that example a little bit to explain that more like when we get mean with it. Because I think that's something every parent can relate to.

Tara Boothby:

Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, part of it is, from a parenting perspective, is just be mindful. First off, the biggest thing with parenting is knowing just oops, I don't like what I did there. That's something and and again, we want to find our own self regulation so that we can go back in and CO regulate when you make a parenting mistake, rupture and repair just, you know, go back back. Phil, let me think I have school aged children, so there are always parent mistakes that I'm doing. Yeah, and Tara

Colette Fehr:

even co regulation is a term that most of our audience may not be familiar with, and it's so powerful we're designed for CO regulation. So before you even get in an example, I would love to hear your definition of that, because everyone this is something all of us need to really access. Yeah,

Tara Boothby:

so, so co regulation, really, our bodies, our central nervous systems, are designed to move into relationship so that we can balance and so that we can come to a point of like, homeostasis. Well being, I'm in my window of tolerance now, because you are with me. And then there's times where we self regulate, and it's like I've got to go on my own and find my own balance so that I can come back into relationship. And the big piece is, is that we do well. We are designed to thrive. We are designed to just enjoy delight benefit from relationships, when we can live from our window of tolerance as often as possible. But Parenting is hard. Yeah, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

Parenting is hard, and actually, human beings can regulate twice as fast in the loving gaze of another. Other and the proximity of a safe other than we can't not that there is never a time or place to self regulate, but it's so we are so wired for attachment, for bonds, yes, that we're really designed to feel better for upset being having someone be with us when we're feeling that way, just be there safely existing with us in our emotions helps our nervous system come back to that baseline. Better than anything. It's

Laura Bowman:

beautiful, right? I mean, I have clients as I'm I work with anxiety a lot, and I have some clients that as soon as they get into like healthy co regulation with another person that they're able to sleep. Finally, they're able to stop having nightmares. I mean, the the level that they're they just need so much CO regulation. And when they finally find something that's secure and safe and feels good to their system, the healing comes quickly, right? And this, I mean not this isn't true for every single human, but some of my anxiety clients, it's better than any drug that you give them, yes,

Tara Boothby:

yes. And so I think back to an example, just this morning, getting ready for school, and it's tense. And usually the the tension is about socks or something like that. Socks, right? Everybody gets socks. Can

Laura Bowman:

never find them.

Tara Boothby:

It takes seven asks, I think, at least, and then my child will say, My daughter, why are you yelling? And it's like, that is the worst, because that can get us going. We didn't fight about socks this morning. But my, my son has a field trip, and so he needed a helmet. My husband got the helmet, put it on. It was loose. I said it's loose. And I tried to fix it, but I broke my nail yesterday, so I couldn't so you gotta make this tighter. Then we had a, you know, a lover's quarrel over this helmet. And so basically what we did was I drove the kids to school and I said, Sorry, mommy and daddy had an argument this morning. But, you know, we argue sometimes, and I've told them before, it's like, you two argue, but you love each other, right? And mommies and daddies do that too. And then I just texted him later, and I was like, you know, I am sorry, because he, he is upset with me. I'm upset with him, but it's not always about me proving what he did right, because, let's be honest, it is always his fault, of course, but it was more I knew. I know his stress level right now is through the roof, and so an apology is something. And he called me immediately and he said, Thank you so much for saying sorry. Yeah, it's a repair. It's a repair, and it's a small, a small thing. But I, again, I like this analogy of and it's from the songs of song Solomon, and you tell the story about marriage like a farmer's field, and it's the rodents that come in and destroy and so I think of that picture, it's not the other farmer who shows up with their big truck that's going to steal your crop. It's the pests, it's the small things. Yeah, you know, and apologizing over the silly helmet fight matters, yes,

Colette Fehr:

and that is actually the biggest thing, in a way, like you're saying, because, from a love science perspective, that is saying, you know, the minutia of this is not what's really important, but that our bond feels safe and secure even as we have normal life challenges, that's what matters. I love you. I care. I'm sorry we got into a squabble, right? It usually doesn't have to be relitigated, and that's the mistake people make often, is who was right, who was wrong? Let me explain the details. No, it went this way. No, it went that way. You never listen, right? And none of that really addresses the attachment piece, which is that I need to know that we're still good, that we're still safely connected and that this isn't doing harm to our bond.

Tara Boothby:

Yeah, and Jay and I, we were we're not physically present with each other when I send the text and he gives me a call, but our bodies have 20 years of CO regulation in our history, and our bodies have experiences of repairing ruptures. So for he and I, there's that, that easy relief, yeah, so, oh, this is familiar. And the circle of security people when they talk about the sensitivity. So our attachment sensitivities is we're really at. Asking, Will you meet me in my unmetable place? Exactly? And it's not just about a helmet, and it's not just about my kids won't find their socks. It, it starts to feel unbeatable after a while.

Colette Fehr:

Yes, I love that language. This reminds me of something that just came up in a romantic relationship, and even the session that I just came out of just now, right? This is the thing that some people who really haven't, not everyone's a therapist, of course, and not everybody's done this work, but once you really understand the attachment piece and how important it is just to be present and connected in the moment that that's really the power of what creates safety and all these other moves are so different. People try to intellectualize, explain, remove themselves, argue, whatever it is, all of those things. Really miss the MAR because when someone's with you in the unmetable place, that's when you co regulate, like I'm feeling something, it doesn't really matter why it upset me. I'm taking the risk to share with you that I was upset because I'm trusting that you at least I have a chance that you'll meet me here, right? I'm being courageous, and if I get back from you, no, that's not what happened. Or let me explain to you why, or you shouldn't be upset about that, or you yell at me, get defensive or walk away, then I am even more deeply wounded than I was by the original thing, because I now feel alone and I feel that I cannot be met in my unbeatable place where I dared to show my vulnerability,

Tara Boothby:

yeah, yeah. And I one of the chapters in my book I titled like shame, blame and humiliation, and there's these nuances of when we we do the thing that we hate, that we do that behavior, and do I feel ashamed? Do? Am I worried you're going to blame me, or do I feel guilty or humiliated? And there's different ways the language around it getting explicit to know if we say to somebody, oh, you feel so ashamed, it's like, well, that might not tune in and when we go ahead,

Laura Bowman:

no, I just like thinking about an argument that my husband and I had, and I'm just thinking about this unbeatable place. I'm just grounding it a little bit and and he had this reaction to something, and I had an immediate reaction in my body. And, and I'm a therapist so, and I'm an ifs therapist, so, like, I knew a part of me was completely activated, and there's a voice saying, Laura, if you let that part handle this, this is just going to be bad. This is going to go really badly and yet. And I tried really hard to not let that part like blend and take over, but it did. And then I did the thing I always do when I get that feeling, when I get that sort of trigger from him, and I immediately thought, shit, why was I not able to do this differently even though I know it's just the wrong move, and so I guess I'm asking both of you, like, where do you go when you just get sucked in to the same move over and over when you know it doesn't it's not going to be helpful. And

Colette Fehr:

I think that does happen. That's human right. You repair, you catch yourself as you take a pause, you regulate yourself, you come back and own your own, your move and say, you know that part of me just got triggered, and this is what I was feeling. And Tara, I'm going to let you answer this, because you may see this differently, but this is how I see it, that this is why repair is so important, because our nervous system is its own wild animal that will do what it wants at times. And we're not always in our window of tolerance, but that's why, you know, if we come back and we acknowledge that in a safe way, I do think that prevents permanent damage, and there's room in a healthy relationship to be human,

Tara Boothby:

yeah, yeah. And, and you're alluding to it, that's beautiful. And Laura, how you say with ifs and the parts work, parts of self. It's insight. And when we have positive intention towards ourselves and positive intention to the other person, we can look inside and it's scary. I remember when I it was like the third or fourth time I took the sensitivities the course I. Activities from the circle of security folk and I went down to Spokane like four times I had to go down there fly from Edmonton. And the first time I was sitting in there with the cohort, Kent Hoffman, was leading us through just this visualization and about connecting with self. And it was as if I was on the edge of this cliff and I was looking in this abyss, and i i It wasn't God or anything, it was me. I said to myself, you can fall in. Give yourself permission. Wow, but it's so scary. It's so scary to get in there, especially when we don't know that it is okay to be flawed. It is okay to be ruinous at times, right? And I had a friend who is struggling with their family, and I just ran into them, and they, this person said to me, oh, you know, I tried to reach out. And boy, was that a mistake. And you know, here's this person who I believe they're trusting their own positive intention, and they're like, I want my family, so they reached out. And, you know, it's so so sad, because we're all just people like everybody else. Sometimes we're good, sometimes we're bad, it's just heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking how painful relationships are. Oh

Colette Fehr:

my god yes. And I have to say, listening to this topic, I just to be vulnerable and real. I just had something happen to me the other day with a very close friend. I feel like I actually do even better. Now, in my romantic relationship, taking these risks to be vulnerable, but in close friendships, it can be hard for me. I haven't even though I have many close friends, that's a context where I'm not as likely maybe to be vulnerable about something that hurts me for whatever reason. And I was having a conversation with a friend about something very intimate, and something triggered some feelings in me where I just felt almost a little rejected by something that was said. And the thing itself wasn't that big, but the feeling it created, it hurt me, and I decided in the moment to take the risk, to share it. And I really felt that I was communicating for my adult self, at least initially. And I was saying, you know, I just want to tell you some feelings that came up, because this relationship is important to me, and it's a little scary to do this, but I feel like we're close enough that I can tell you about my inner world and that, you know, all I really want is for you to just hear that this is the feeling. And anyway, it did not go well, and it did not go well at all, and I got a reaction that felt to me, defensive, explanatory, doubling down on details, what was meant and not went meant, what it why it wasn't what I thought it was, and what my friend was saying wasn't even what I thought it was. So then, of course, it's like the detail Olympics, right? And I was feeling more and more rejected and hurt and alone as the conversation continued. And I had a part of me that thought, wow, I just wish I hadn't said anything at all and then, and this is where I think, and the reason I'm sharing this too is this is what's changed for me over the years and my own self connection and self love Journey, is that even as I was in the midst of feeling so rejected, it did not feel good. I'm not going to lie, it really felt in my stomach. I felt sick, and I felt sick about it all weekend, but what where I was able to shift was I was able to bring my own loving presence to myself, and I was able to say, you know, wow, Colette, you took a risk to do something you typically would never do. And it's such a sign of my own growth and courage, just interpersonally, that I even went there and it didn't land, and I was able to feel really experientially that I don't think the person's reaction was a lack of care for me, even though that's how it felt. I think the person, my friend, got activated into her own stuff, and I was able to feel that and to have some empathy for that, and then also to really be with my own younger inner child, my vulnerable self, and say, You know what? That really hurt. I reached for a connection. I didn't get it. That person could not meet me in my unbeatable place, but I still can be there for me. And be proud of myself for speaking up and know that I'm growing and I can love myself in that place. Yeah, and so it ended up being a painful but also really positive experience for myself to validate myself and extend that loving care within

Laura Bowman:

I'm glad you told that story, Colette, because I feel like we always think that we're going to be vulnerable and we're going to take an emotional risk, and it's going to go so well, but a lot of times it goes just like you described, where you're left having to take to talk to yourself, to parent yourself, to say, I'm here for you, and that's the step. I don't think people are clear

Colette Fehr:

on a lot of the time, no, and also it felt like absolute shit. I cannot even believe at what I feel like. I have a very I feel like I have a pretty healthy relationship with myself. I'm very emotionally connected. I'm a therapist. I felt so wounded by the interaction, the depth of the pain even surprised. I mean, it really hurt. It really, really, really hurt, and I was okay. But of course, who wants to do things that could hurt? However, if we never take the risk to connect, we know we'll never get it right. You've got so I it's tough. Let me ask this question

Laura Bowman:

to Tara. I really want to, I really want to direct this to like, I'm thinking of like a client of mine, or many of my clients, and they have not been raised in the circle of security, right? They've had terrible familial experiences and like, abandonment and rejection and criticism and content the whole the whole nine yards, and now they're attempting, in their adult world to find partners to heal these patterns like tell us, give us what's the hopeful story on how you can go from Never having healthy attachment to finding healthy attachment. Yeah,

Tara Boothby:

you're talking about earning security. That's what we do. So we we have our own story, and we all have relational trauma. We all have some level of trauma. That's what Colette's talking about. As my my trauma got activated here, and that surprises me, because I am emotionally safe with my friend. Just to say one more thing, I think, to Colette that I it's, it's as if you trusted her positive intention, and that if you were hearing the echoes inside of her, it's, it's as if she's saying, Colette, you mean so much to me that I don't want to get this wrong for you. Yeah, and I'm going to try really, really hard to prove to you that I didn't actually hurt you, right? And you know that, and you know that, right?

Colette Fehr:

Thank you for narrating it like that, though, yeah.

Tara Boothby:

But then it's, it's it's scary. We get wobbly. So when we we get married or fall in love, usually, like in our 20s, those are the relationships where we're scrambling more. It's like, Okay, I gotta find the one, or that the false notions. And we're just babies. We're so young, when we're in our 20s and we try to find a life partner, and it's pretty common that there's that urgency, then it's changing a bit. Seems that the young people, they are more promiscuous. I mean, we were all promiscuous, but there's more of this, like trial and error in the 20s, and people are considering marriage in their 30s now, which is fine, it's just noticing. But we, we want somebody who's going to be be with us in a way that all of the pain that we've endured won't occur. And so the beginning of relationships, that lust zone, the crush zone, the honeymoon. My friend is is recently divorced and started dating, and he said, I'm just trying to enjoy the honeymoon and not over analyze it, because when you you choose in your 20s, and you're not informed, often, many of these relationships don't last, right? And then we have to press play again in our 40s or 50s and and dating is always dating. It's a anxiety provoking, it's an unknown, but clarifying our wants in a partner is really important. This is, Who am I looking for? Write it down. It's like, what do I want in this person? And the more we're informed about our own trauma and our own attachment injuries, the pains that we've gone through the relational trauma, the better we can sense into ourselves and and and have that like love energy is the language I use that we can have more of that charge and understand more of that charge because making it. Work is not about compatibility. It's not about compatibility. It's about commitment. And though there's this old meme that's like these, these two elderly people saying, In my day, we didn't throw things away when they were broken, we fixed them, but being informed, you know, especially people therapists who are divorced. I have so many therapist friends who are divorced. These people are very informed. So the second marriage is actually this beautiful place to discover human relationship in a fresh way. I've I've got a lot of mistakes and a lot of insight and a lot of of of recovery that I'm bringing into this relationship now, of maturity,

Laura Bowman:

yeah, so it's important to do your own work, yeah, especially the more the more injurious your family was, or the more attachment baggage you're bringing from previous relationships. It's important to really know how that impacted you? Yes, and

Colette Fehr:

security is earned in the little moments. You know it's it's really the smallest moments when we're tempted to continue to default to the ways we had to protect ourselves to survive those abandoning and rejecting moments earlier in life. With that insight can come awareness that, you know, this behavior kept me safe then and now, it's really keeping me from having that intimacy and that it plays a role. It's not just what your partner's doing to you, it's that and your feelings on that are valid, but it's also the way you show up in the little moment that's protective, that sends a scrambled signal to your partner that then makes them feel they have to protect, and that cycle that we co create. So I really do that's what we see in Emotionally Focused couples therapy by tuning into with compassion and non judgmental awareness, there are positive intentions, just like you said, Tara, my friend, I know her heart. I know she loves me. It didn't feel like it in the moment, and that's why it was so painful, and how much of that is her or me, or who cares? It's it felt the way it felt. And I had a choice, and I felt the urge to, and I started to, I started to react protectively and say, You know what? Forget it. Fuck you. Forget it. I'm out of here. I'll never tell you anything again, one and done. There's a reason I never shared at this level with you, and I'll never fucking do it again. I can feel that part of me right, and I'm not saying it's totally repaired with her, but I shifted into a place of, like, more understanding and not reacting in a way if I kick her away, then that's just gonna, it's gonna produce another reaction that further destroys our relationship, instead, when and if, if there's ever a safe time to talk about it, and I don't know there will be, I may just say, you know, the way that went, I felt a little wounded, and you know, I really, I know you had positive intentions. I may even just leave it at that, but that's very different from then saying, You know what? Fuck off. I'm done with you.

Tara Boothby:

Yeah. It is, yeah. And female relationships are, you know, this example is so beautiful because it rings so true for female relationships, we get this is how we get wobbly with each other, but when we take a break, and there's a space where we do take a break, yeah, and there's, there's relationships that we may never, ever return to or shouldn't, right? And I will say that being out of relationship is always unnatural, and I mean even people who it was so toxic, I believe I'll grieve the loss of those relationships for the rest of my life. Agreed,

Laura Bowman:

yeah, and I love that you said that. I mean, I just want to double click on that, because I think you're right. Like being out of relationship is unnatural, I feel that sentiment too, and yet, there are some relationships that are nearly impossible to participate in. Yeah,

Tara Boothby:

and we get to like ourselves. If I don't like who I am in this relationship, then I need space to consider. I need to dive into myself and think, Okay, can I move into this relationship in a different way? Can I show up and be in my positive intentionality with this person. So when we press pause, my belief is, is when I press pause, I am trying to contemplate on or be present with myself and evaluate, can I move back in within love's kind, you know, like, Can I move back in and have a volleying of. Caring for each other, holding each other's circle. Can I, can I live in a de escalated, balanced place? Can I stay in my window of tolerance with you? Can you stay in your window of tolerance with me? And that's sort of the idea of, press pause. We're not going to stop it. Let's press pause, and then we can, we can press play again or not. Yeah,

Colette Fehr:

and we have to evaluate. And the more you know yourself, the more connected you are to yourself, the more you can really evaluate what relationships are worth it when you really have to, sometimes there is a hard line boundary that has to be drawn, but even when that's the case, there's loss, because we're meant to be in relationship, and I'm with you. I There are relationships I don't have anymore, that it's right that I don't have them, but there's still grief over

Tara Boothby:

it. There's grief and and then we participated in the toxicness, yeah? And we, we, we weren't the true image of who we are in those relationships. Yeah. And so then when we have more health and awareness, when we just want to be insightful about ourselves and others, we have better ability to look back and say it wasn't all them, right, you know? And a marker of secure attachment, or the the goal for earning security is, I can look back on my past and see it was good and bad. Yes, it was good about

Colette Fehr:

my part and own my part, yeah and own my part,

Tara Boothby:

yeah and not own somebody else's. Yes,

Colette Fehr:

yeah. You know, one more small thing on that that I did, that it's funny, the reaction I got from some people 10 years after a relationship ended, it still bothered me so much, the way I behaved the toxicity that I participated in. I was not healthy in the way I showed up in the relationship, in its demise. Granted, a lot of things were happening that pushed buttons, that pushed big abandonment buttons, but it bothered me so much the way I acted that I actually had not spoken to this person in 10 years, and I didn't even know if it was the same phone number. And I wrote a message saying, you know, I just went it probably seems crazy. Some people were like, You should not have done that for like, five reasons. Yeah, you know what? It felt right to me. And so I honored my heart, and I just said, Hey, I don't even know if you'll get this. It's been so long, you don't even know I'm a therapist, but I just feel when I look back on our relationship, there were so many good things, but it got really unhealthy at the end, and I want to just own my part. I did not have good relationship skills. I still had a lot of wounds I hadn't worked through, and the way I behaved at times was really a big part of the problem. And I just want to apologize for that and tell you that I also thought there was a lot of good and that I hope your life's good. And you know, I wasn't trying to read any response. Well, I did, but what I got was, in a sense, unsatisfied, I think the hope, in a way, I didn't do it to get anything, but the hope would have been like, thank you so much. You know, I too, played a role. And like, I hope you're good, too. I didn't get that. I got Thank You for Your message. I'm glad you're well, yeah, okay, fine. But you know what? Then I thought, all right, well, you suck. Hey, and B, I'm still glad, I'm still glad I did it, because it bothered me that I didn't own my part, and I just wanted to say, like, I don't actually need the response, because it's just a reflection of that person's own development. I know they played a role too, and I don't need them to acknowledge it, but I needed to acknowledge my part and just say that I'm sorry that it got as like unhealthy and toxic as it did. I've grown since then I learned, and there was a lot of good too, and I wish you well. And I, in the end, I felt good about having done it. Yeah,

Tara Boothby:

is brave. Very brave. I can be too. I get more scared at the idea of those things. So I really respect people who take those big risks. And I think about them, and I wonder, how did you do that? But it's also, you know, like we can put so much emphasis on forgiveness. I have I break this down in my book as well that, you know, amends, forgiveness, repair, reconciliation. It's really, there's a lot to it. So you didn't get reconciliation, you weren't going to get repair, and you weren't looking for it. You were doing an amends and apologizing, yes. And so it's, it's huge when we notice what you did. Yeah. And your good intention in reaching out,

Laura Bowman:

very scary, very, I think it shows that nuance. But being able to, like, lean in and be flexible and say, like, I know what I brought, yep, and I don't expect, you know, you to to meet me there. You know, it's like, it is that flexibility, and that's like what we're working for,

Colette Fehr:

right, right, psychological flexibility, yes, and also, I think the more we love ourselves, the more we mature, the more we work on ourselves, which is a lifelong journey, the more we do have rejection never feels good, but the more bandwidth we have for some of that, because it does happen. It's part of the human experience. I didn't get the ideal response that I would have liked, but I have more ability to absorb that than I would have at another point where I might not have taken the risk because a rejecting response might have felt too painful, and this is why I really do think, regardless of what we've been through, doing our own work is so important, always that self loving work,

Tara Boothby:

yes, yeah, yeah, repairing with our own self, you know, like that, forgiveness, amends, repair, reconciliation with our own Self that so much has the internal family systems work, that's so much of the Emotionally Focused work, is I love me again. I'm loving towards myself. I see I am lovable, and then I'm loved as well. And that's all that's beautiful. But we, we, we live in such a culture where we don't want to be inside of our bodies, and then we pop out into behavior, and it becomes automatic. The neural pathways in our brain just move towards these behaviors and away from what's uncomfortable. So true, yeah, and that's where the IFS work that Lara does is is a beautiful model of reconciliation inside of oneself,

Laura Bowman:

yeah, and that's the work that people should direct into like, you know, like, I'm thinking of a client right now who, you know, has had terrible security, family stuff, and has had her like, ruinous is a word you used ruinous relationships. But his instinct is, I'm gonna go find another partner. But I can guarantee you that he does not feel lovable like he would say he doesn't feel lovable. It's like you want to say, like, pause like, let's, like, push the pause button, yeah, and let's do a like, a little like, we gotta go inside. And he has to repair with self and begin to find self love before he's going to be an attachment fit for anybody. It doesn't matter if he has the most, if he has Florence Nightingale, you know? And it's an attachment form, right? If he's not got that self love well. And

Colette Fehr:

I mean, I think so many of the at least in my practice, I see very few people, and they're all wonderful, loving, lovable people, but who feel lovable and good enough truly. I mean, I think these are the core human wounds we incur, and the promise of the journey of being more embodied and being in relationship and creating safer relationships, is coming to feel that we are indeed good enough, that we are lovable by virtue of breathing, and I think that's out of reach right now for so many people right that we we've been rejected, and We've been abandoned in ways throughout our lives, and it's left this feeling of, I'm not lovable, or maybe there's something wrong with me that this happens to me, and then, like you're saying, Tara, we're out there with these behaviors. We can't sit in it long enough to work on it and heal it so we never get to the core wound.

Tara Boothby:

Yeah, so we'll use this language of a stress pile up. When we consider our own selves, there's so much going on that it's this big old pile up problems, and it feels stressful and insurmountable. How do I get in there and do this? So then a lot of us shy away from the work. The best definition of repair I've come across is from the circle of security, and they say repair is, I am here, I know you need me, and we're going to work this out. It's beautiful. That's what you did when you've reached back to that old relationship. Is you're like, I'm here. I know you needed me now. I didn't know it then, and we can work this out. We're not going to be friends, but you know, we could meet each other in this, that old, unbeatable moment, yes, and, and probably because you've that's how you were on the inside Colette that you were in this, this position of your feet were on the earth. Yes, and you were in your window of tolerance, yes. So when you got the rejection, you're like, oh, same old, same shit, different day. Yeah, moving right along, yep,

Colette Fehr:

yep. And I could absorb it and not take it as a reflection of my lovability worthiness, right? I didn't. It didn't land like that. It felt a tinge of hurt, a tinge of disappointment, and then also, you know what? I did this to make an amends to this person. For my part, I've done that. I feel proud of myself for being mature enough to do that, and I'm okay inside, even though it felt a little hurtful and disappointing, I'm still okay. Hasn't damaged my view of self, yeah, but you

Laura Bowman:

wouldn't have done it had you not been able to tolerate what was

Colette Fehr:

no and I wouldn't have done it, you know? I mean, I didn't do it till 10 years later, right? I hadn't reached a place that I

Tara Boothby:

could do that, yeah, yeah. And it's hard to know, like I just I saw somebody recently who I expect I'll never see again, and we are out of relationship. And I really try to live with such forgiveness in my heart for people and and love them. And sometimes there's some people where I have to forgive and love them from afar. Yeah, so because, and when I saw this person, I was like, Oh, I do not like you, and I do not like me, I felt a big old fuck you inside, and the word hate was floating around. I was raised you don't have that word inside of you, but I I I live with such love now that I felt such intense rage and I was okay with that I'm not going to live in that moment. Right To me, it's a measure of terror, like you are not super human enough to be around people. My the risk is I will have a trauma response, then right if I'm in that intense rage activation, and then I fight, flight, fawn, freeze, whatever I'm going to do is not the truth of who I am and when I'm in my fight, flight, freeze, fawn reaction, that's when my brain is at risk of going into autopilot, and I'll do behaviors that are the truth of who I am, and then I'm not in my body and I'm not in charge.

Laura Bowman:

And that's the whole thing, right? Is learning what those what those triggers are, and what states you get put in by certain relationships, and noticing and like you're saying, most people do not live at that level. They're not in their bodies. It's so quick, it's so automatic. They're not registering all of that, and

Colette Fehr:

that's why, as I know, we have to wrap up. This went so fast, I feel like we could talk for 12 hours about all

Tara Boothby:

of this. Let's do it. Let's just have a sleepover. Yes,

Colette Fehr:

I love it, but you need to come to Florida because we cannot handle I agree. I agree, but it really is like I think what we we're saying is takeaways here. Don't worry so much about your attachment style or figuring it out. Really work. Do the work to get to know yourself. Be more embodied. Have less judgment for yourself. It's a process, and take risks, small risks that feel doable, to create more secure responses and more secure bonds in your relationships. By the way, you respond, even little, tiny things, right? If you have a reaction, it's human. You're going to yell at your kids, you're going to fight with your husband in front of your kids, you're going to be an asshole. It's inevitable. We all do, right? And that's okay, but you can rap out of the field, yes, and come back and say, You know what? I totally let my frustration overwhelm me. I know I tell I mean, I have to say this to my husband all the time because I'm very Italian and expressive, and I think I'm being so soft. And meanwhile, I'm like this, like a whirling dervish, and his alarm bells are going off, and I'll come back and say, You know what, I got really feisty there for a minute, and I'm sure that didn't feel good. I'm sorry for the way I spoke to you. I'm sorry I got so annoyed, right? And then most of the time, that small thing alone has so much power to take us from a disconnected place where we're going to spiral into like, Okay, thank you for apologizing, right? Just like what you describe with your husband. So you don't have to be a therapist, but do some therapy. I mean, I really do think that's a takeaway. And obviously this is not self promotion, since most of you listening couldn't even come to us just by virtue of laws and location, but it's worth it to spend some time working on yourself and loving yourself and know. I love what you said about loved, lovable and loving, yeah, that we're all that way. And Tara, before we let you go, can you share with us the full name of your book, where it's available, and then how our listeners can find you on social media or get in touch with you?

Tara Boothby:

Yeah, that's beautiful. The book is love and loves energy. So there's my beautiful book and my love, yeah, my dear friend did the art for it, for this book, and it's just the even the image is so powerful that people like to just look at it. Or when they're reading, they said, I just kept flipping back to the front and the cover to see if, if you were going to get to the place where I hope you are going to get to. So love and love. Yeah, love and loves. Energy. How attachment, science proves that love nurtures our biological nature, impacts our positive view of ourselves, of others and of God, and teaches us all how to love. I am on social media. I love social media. I love it. I love trying to be a positive oasis on the journey of social media and our company here. So one of our pages is sojourn psychology on Instagram, we have a sojourn psychology YouTube, where we put something up once a week and and then Tara Boothby, so we'll make sure we have my proper name and find it on social media. I love it. We

Colette Fehr:

will include that in the show notes so everyone can follow you. And I think your book is wonderful. The cover art is beautiful, and I think this is stuff that everybody needs access to. So thank you for writing the

Tara Boothby:

book. Yeah, thank you, and thank you for having me. Thank

Colette Fehr:

you so much for your time, Tara, we appreciate you, and thank you to all of our listeners. Sure you learned a lot today about attachment and love and love ability, and we hope that you enjoyed this episode of insights from the couch. We'll see you next time you