Insights from the Couch - Mental Health at Midlife

Ep.45: Ditching Diet Culture: Healing Your Relationship with Food and Body Image with Nicole Swartz

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 4 • Episode 45

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In this eye-opening episode, we sit down with Nicole Swartz, a licensed therapist specializing in helping people heal from the damaging effects of diet culture and generational body-image trauma. Nicole shares her personal story of overcoming an eating disorder, offers insights into her revolutionary coaching program, and explains how shifting mindsets around food and body image can create lasting, positive change for both individuals and families. This conversation dives into how diet culture infiltrates our lives, generational differences in attitudes toward body image, and the transformative power of self-compassion and acceptance. 

 

Episode Highlights:

[0:03] - Meet Nicole Swartz: Therapist, coach, and passionate advocate for breaking free from diet culture.
 [5:00] - Nicole’s personal journey: From a childhood steeped in diet culture to finding healing and creating her coaching program.
 [8:35] - How generational differences shape body image and food habits.
 [13:28] - The rise of body positivity among Gen Z and its cultural impact.
 [18:24] - Navigating the fine line between self-acceptance and the desire for change.
 [25:52] - Addressing the challenges of an obesogenic culture and finding balance in food choices.
 [29:12] - Transforming inner dialogue: How to move from self-criticism to self-compassion.
 [34:00] - Teaching children a balanced approach to food and body acceptance.
 [47:51] - Letting go of the shame around food and embracing a healthier narrative.

 

Resources:

Connect with Nicole Swartz: https://www.instagram.com/antidiet_therapist 

Make sure to visit the “Resources” page on our website www.insightsfromthecouch.org to download the worksheet and take ways that accompany each episode. This is hugely important as we are now creating a download that is unique to each episode and working hard to create an email list to support our programming offerings moving forward.

Colette Fehr:

All right, welcome back, everybody. Thanks for listening. We're here at insights from the couch, and Laura and I have a wonderful guest today, Nicole Swartz, and we're going to be talking about breaking free from diet culture and having a healthy relationship with food and your body something that is a lifelong process for most of us, women, thanks to society and Yes, welcome Nicole. I want to give a little bit of info on you, but just to say welcome to we're so glad to have you. Thank you so much for having me and acknowledging how important this topic is because I'm obviously very passionate about it, so I appreciate you giving me space to be here. Thank you. Yeah, we're thrilled to have you that you're a licensed therapist who specializes in helping individuals here heal from generational diet, culture, trauma, beautiful, and that you're committed to empowering clients to develop a positive relationship with their bodies and food, and you understand the importance of breaking the cycle, and you really offer guidance to those who wish to create a healthier environment, both for themselves and their children and families. Yeah, it is, and it's layered, right? I think that my approach, you know, I think without hijacking the moment and jumping right in, you know, I look at moms very specifically my generation. I'm a millennial. I think we're just the first generation who's sort of saying, This doesn't feel good, I want to push back a little bit, right, and realizing that we really absorbed so much specifically from our parents. You know, we really the research points mostly to mothers and daughters, right? Specifically, a daughter with a mother who is consumed by body image diet restriction has a higher likelihood of developing an eating disorder at some point in her life, or just being stuck in a cycle of dieting. We know that that's what the research says, but I think we're going to find out that it's not just daughters, it's men too. We know men just really don't talk so much about it. But you know, I was a product of that environment, so I have done all of the work to heal and in my work as a private practice therapist, every time I ask the question about, tell me your relationship with food in your body. Most of the answers are not. It's great. I love myself. I have problems with food, right? So that's kind of where the idea was birthed. A little bit like, okay, it's this personal experience for me, mixed with what I hear from the people I'm treating and really just seeing this highlighted problem that doesn't get as much attention as it should. So beautifully. Said, can you tell us a little bit about your own personal story? If you're willing? Yeah, absolutely. So I was raised with, you know, I always say two very loving parents, right? I always start the story that way, and before I even burst this program and I went to my parents and I said, I'm gonna be online and I'm gonna be talking a lot about my experiences, and it's not to shame you, or to say you did anything wrong, I think they did what the best that they could. They didn't know back then. I'm 38 so you know, my childhood really was the 90s. We just didn't know back then what we know now. So they really did the best they could, but they were both very consumed with their bodies, and both of my parents have been on a diet my whole life right up until today, right now. And you know, I can remember going to Weight Watchers meetings with my mom, not because she wanted me to be there to lose weight, but just like there was no childcare and she had to go to her meeting. So here I was sitting in the room, and we just didn't I want to believe nobody knew that as children, we're internalizing all of this, right? Even if we're sitting there and it's not about us or our bodies, we're getting the message that, oh, being smaller is better. My mom's kind of obsessed with being smaller, so I must make sure that I stay small too. So I wound up with an eating disorder that really reared its head, mostly when I was 14. I say that I'm in remission, but that's a life long diagnosis, right? That's yeah. So I spent most of my, I'll say, from like 19 up until just a few years ago, on the same cycle that I saw my parents on diets and just so much self loathing, and it was never good enough, and I never felt confident enough. And then having children really reopened all of that, right? Watching my body changed with each of my pregnancies, gaining, losing all of the weight, until just maybe, like, two years ago, and I was finally like, I am so tired of just hating myself. There has to be another way, and I don't want to spend every day thinking about what food choices I'm making, and obsessing and having guilt and all of the things that I could really just go on and on and on. But I wound up working with a registered dietitian who was very specifically specialized in breaking diet culture, and then, of course, in my own therapy process, it was.

Nicole Swartz:

Hand in hand, the healing that I experienced, and I realized there's a lot of coaching programs, like the one that I'm doing, focused from the nutrition lens. There's not a lot that focus from the Mental Health ones, even eating disorder specialized therapists. I think there's just a missed market here, and that's kind of the whole story that got me to where I designed this program that I made. So, Wow, I'm so curious about the program, but I am. Just have to start, like, Colette and I were talking, our parents are closer, late 70s, pushing 80, and very blended with the idea of like thin is better. I mean, my mom, I'll just say she got like, a tummy tuck at age 75

Laura Bowman:

Wow. And like, continues to like battle. Like, if she feels thin, she can participate in active society. If she doesn't, she doesn't want to. So like, the messages that I received were not even like padded at all, they were overt. Yes, they right. You will not have value if you're not then Exactly, yeah. So I didn't end up with an eating disorder, but my daughter did, and so I've gotten to watch that unfold, right? Yeah, but it is so pervasive in my family that I mean, and I feel like Colette has had some of the same stuff too, yeah.

Colette Fehr:

But, you know, it's interesting, Laura, for sure. You know, my father was heavy as a child, and his, you know, my grandparents would be well over 100 right? So we're talking many generations ago, and my father was nicknamed chubby because he was overweight, and so much so that my grandfather, who was in a wonderful person, right? I'm not trying to disparage anyone. I mean, I love my parents and my grandparents just like you said, unconditionally, that they put up a street sign at the corner of my dad's block that said chubby's corner. Yeah. And my dad tells the story of going to his dad there, he was a physician, and saying, Can you help me lose weight like I know I'm fat. And he said, You know what? You'll feel so embarrassed by yourself, that you'll find a way to lose weight. Ouch, right? So here my father it is. He definitely has. I was never told I've struggled with my weight my whole life. You know, I'm Italian. I feel like I have weight gaining genes and an inborn love of food, but I never got overt messages from my father, really, as a child. However, I got sub textual and subliminal messages everywhere. Yes, I went to a very small Catholic school, and everybody was like mostly Irish, especially in my younger years, and they were all real thin and like blonde. I mean, I know I'm blonde now, but obviously it's totally fake, and I was the only one I

Unknown:

love you for admitting Yes, of course, I

Colette Fehr:

don't think I'm full. In anyway,

Laura Bowman:

I'm all natural. Colette, speak for yourself, except

Colette Fehr:

you, but like when everyone around you is thin, and my mother was always overweight, and interestingly, didn't buy into diet culture and didn't seem to care. But I so internalized the message of culture that I thought it was bad that she was overweight, and I wanted her to be upset about it and do something about it, sure, which is so messed up. So I think I have been on a diet since about age 11, right, my entire life, and I'm currently on diet shots like Zep bound, which is an alternative to ozempic. It's been a lifelong struggle. I don't hate myself. I don't have the self loathing piece, but I do have the desire to be thin, and it is so hard wired. So I'd love to hear more about, obviously, the way you conceptualize this. But I'm also curious, since Laura and I are Gen Xers, how do you see the younger generation as truly conceptualizing what's healthy, and is it really different from our old bad messages, or is it just new language and still just as sick and fucked

Laura Bowman:

up health and wellness? Well, to

Nicole Swartz:

to be determined, I don't know, let's talk again in 30 years. But from what we're from what Millennials are doing with our small children. So my kids are five and eight, right? I can't speak so much about well, let me backtrack. I'll start there, and then I'll, I'll get to some of my Gen Z ers that I've either worked with, or my like, babysitters that I spend time with, and what I'm seeing. But I think there's a. Shift in language for sure, right? So there's rules that we have when I say we I'm talking me and my husband that we've decided, right? Our kids will never hear us say something negative about ourselves in general. It just won't happen, whether that's our bodies, whether that's any kind of self deprecation, because I think that that is so internalized in that moment they're hearing so much of what we're saying that goes right down to setting boundaries even with grandparents, right? So we have our Boomer grandparents, and they love to look at my son and say, You're so skinny. And I'm like, like, Nope, don't do that, because skinny to them is a compliment, but it's still a comment on a body, and that can be internalized and shameful. The same way saying your fat can be totally so there's helping set those boundaries. We talk a lot with our kids just about bodies are different. And they'll ask, Why is your you know, your belly is squishier than mine. And in a moment where someone could say, like, Oh, your belly is so much cuter than mine, I'm like, Yeah, my belly is squishier because I had you, like, that's where you grew. And he's like, Oh, it's so comfortable. I love laying on it. So to me, that's a beautiful moment where I'm not teaching him that my squishy belly is worse than his cute, little flat, tight belly that he has right now. I'm also honoring that. Yeah, my body has changed and it's different. And this is like a core memory that my son's making with me. Maybe he'll remember one day that we struggled in bed, and mom's soft belly made me feel happy, right? So those two things are an example there of here's the language that we're using that's different, and here's also where my healing comes in. So instead of me saying, Oh my gosh. He's pointing out that my belly is squishy, and that makes me feel shameful. I'm like, Oh, he's comfortable on me. And this is like a sweet moment, and that's in the bucket of healing for me with my body stuff. So that's part of I feel like I really could just go on and on. There's so many examples of how we're doing this with our small children. I think Gen Z, what I'm seeing is so much more body positivity, right? And this might open up a conversation about, you know, when we see, you know, just the way that they dress, like when I was that age, crop top on, I would never wear, like little shorts, but they're just out there in their bodies and they're comfortable and they're happy, and they're not experiencing the same things I think that my generation did in terms of, Oh, you don't have the body to wear that. They just wear what they want. So I agree, shifting

Colette Fehr:

to me, it's one of the I mean, I have two Gen Z daughters. They're both in college, and I think there's a lot with Gen Z that makes me want to bang my head against a wall, but this is something I think they really got right. I notice, especially they both go to college in Florida where everyone walks around half naked, 24/7, 365, days a year. And you're right. Regardless of body type, they are in, basically, clothes that look like bathing suits, shorts that end at the, you know, thigh, Marc, crease

Laura Bowman:

of your thigh,

Colette Fehr:

and you're amazing. I love that because I would not in middle school, get up from my lounge chair and get in the pool in front of boys and big T shirt covering me. I'd get in the pool with a T shirt when my body started developing. Sure, it's just makes me so happy for them, but body

Laura Bowman:

standards seem to be changing too, right? Like, I mean, I grew up with J Crew magazines, like, I wanted to be a J Crew model, which, like, they didn't want they looked, they were just like, had, didn't have butts or anything. And I was like, oh yeah. And I'm not built that way. And then somewhere along the way, like curvy became really sexy. And I'm like, when did that happen? But it feels like there's a changing body standard as well, absolutely.

Nicole Swartz:

And I think we can credit, you know, say what you want about Lizzo. I know she's had a rough go recently, but you know, I think we have to look at people like that, who are unapologetically who they are, and stand in their bodies and they don't hide behind anything. And I think for millennials, I can remember in the heyday of the early 2000s and being in the checkout line at the grocery store and looking at the magazine covers, and there were pictures of Jessica Simpson, who has an incredibly normal looking body at that time, and it would be labeled, she gained weight, she's fat, she's this, she's that. So again, it's that moment of even if we were not getting that overt messaging about our own bodies, of course, at 14, I'm looking at that and I'm saying, well, that doesn't look that different from my body, so I guess I'm fat too. And, you know, that's another example, too, of the way that we use the word fat, right? I'm trying to teach my kids that fat is something that our bodies have, right? And is also just the descriptor. It's okay to say fat, right? I think all of us, even me as the millennial, with you guys, fat probably makes a. Like, sit up a little straighter, right? Like, if someone uses that to describe someone, I try to teach my kids that's just a word that we use to describe things, and it doesn't have to be a dirty word that we avoid. So just another example of changing the language, right? Some bodies have more fat on them, and we would describe those bodies as fat. They're still beautiful. Yeah, right. I know

Colette Fehr:

it just feels like an insult, because in my upbringing, calling someone fat was definitely about the worst thing you could say about Yeah, you'd almost call them a murderer, derogatory

Laura Bowman:

and disqualifying. Yeah,

Nicole Swartz:

I know that's a big push. Though, in the world that I'm in, especially with our children, is trying to teach them that that word doesn't mean that it's just a descriptor, but it's hard for me and all the work I've done, and clearly this is my platform. I still, even in books we read, I used to skip the word fat. You know, in the children's books, they use it a lot, and I would skip it because I would think, like, I don't want them to learn that word. And now I'm learning okay, it's okay. They can understand, you know, I can show them on their bodies where they have fat on their bodies, and it's doesn't have to be what we know it to be. Yeah, right, yeah. And it

Colette Fehr:

seems that this change in cultural acceptance, because bodies have become, you know, more diverse and accepted as such, even though we know it's still there, right? And there's still a lot of misogyny in our culture and objectifying and judging women. And you know, even at 51 when I lose weight, people comment, and it's like, now you're good, right? Oh, yeah, right. It's always seen as the positive, being overweight still has a correlation with like, letting yourself go, being lazy, being less than but I do think we're shifting it, and I think this is a big part of why Gen Z doesn't feel and carry the shame. And I know in my own work what's changed for me. I mean, I, too, will always be working on this, but over the years, I've been able to really let go of the shame piece. I feel like, almost completely, you know, I don't, yeah, sometimes I catch certain glimpses of my body and I'm like, Oh, wow, that's not what I thought it looked like. Yeah, what I wish. But there's a fundamental acceptance. I don't hide. It's one of the reasons that I am personally committed to being very open about being on the weight loss shots, because I've noticed, yeah, and I feel like women carry shame about that, even though so many people are doing it. And once I tell people I'm doing the shots, then other people are opening up to me, but they seem so mortified by it, as if they have to hide it. And I don't want it to be that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. I

Nicole Swartz:

think that that's part of what my that's a part of my coaching program, is that we can, we can let go of the shame, and we can love ourselves and still want to change how we look, right? I think it's all about motivation for me. If it's motivation to change your body because of just how much you hate yourself and you think you'll be more valuable if you're smaller, that's a different conversation for me than if you're in a place where you love yourself and you're at the point where you're like, Well, I would feel a little better if my clothes just went on my body a little bit easier, right? Or

Colette Fehr:

I don't fit into any of my clothes. Yeah, that's right,

Nicole Swartz:

it's a problem. Yeah, that's a terrible feeling, right? But I think that it's where's the motivation to change your body coming from? Is it from self loathing and shame and feeling like you are more valuable to society in a smaller body, or is it truly your comfort? Those are two different issues for me, right?

Colette Fehr:

I agree, and I feel like you just articulated exactly the shift in me from when I was younger, and it was like I have to starve to be desired by my male partner and seen as valuable in society, and now it's like, I want to be healthy and feel good about how I look and feel good in my clothes. And also, it doesn't have to be perfect. My goal weight is about 20 to 25 pounds higher than I weighed when I was young, and that's my goal weight. So it's a much healthier, more balanced and self accepting place to be, and it feels a lot better inside.

Nicole Swartz:

I love that, and that's such a good mental checkpoint for anyone who's struggling, right? If, if we're in the place where we're trying to become smaller, what's the internal monolog looking like every day? Is it what you kind of just described, or is it that shame spiral and the self loathing and the idea that you kind of want to punish yourself, right? Oh, I ate this last night today, and I have to go do the elliptical for an hour. That kind of stuff is a red flag, right? Yeah. I

Laura Bowman:

mean, like, eating issues have, like, the same etiology, right? Like, I mean, like, are the same cause. Just for our listener, there is like that I see that some like. My daughter will be real, is really open about this. Like, she has more of, like, kind of almost an OCD relationship that she can get in with food and exercise, where it's, like, very compulsive and upset, you know, obsessive compulsive, and it's a very tight sort of anxiety loop, whereas, like, somebody who binges, and I'm not saying that all these things don't kind of all land in the same place, but people who binge can sometimes really be trying to self soothe and cope and, like, numb, and that's and sometimes our habits, like stem from a different place, or our ways of coping. Do you deal with that in your coaching program, like diff like the different ways these things really show up for people, sure,

Nicole Swartz:

yeah. So for me, specifically with the program, there's a certain line in the sand that I have to draw, because my coaching program, just to make this understandable for people who are listening, is outside of the therapy world for red tape reasons. For me to be able to treat people outside of the state of Florida where I'm licensed, right? So I have to be careful with what comes up in the coaching. If I'm working with someone and I see something that really starts to cross over into more of a disordered eating standpoint, I'm going to be talking about, hey, let's get a therapist on board to help us really work out some of that. But I'm absolutely talking with people about, what are we using food for? Right? In a more, I guess, in a less, a less pathological way. And I know that that word makes a lot of sense to the three of us in the room, but what I mean by that is, if our food habits have less to do with something on a deeper level, right, something that's not necessarily quite as threatening as really serious disordered eating could be right, but, yeah, we are definitely talking about, are we using food to soothe? How else can we soothe in those moments? And what are the steps we can take in the moment where the urge to, oh, I feel stressed, I want to reach for something, Hey, how can we pause and sit with that and think about, what else could we do? How do we handle, you know, a craving, sometimes we just have to honor it too, right? It's not always about controlling it. I think a big piece of what I want to teach people is that it's okay to eat emotionally, as long as that's not our only coping skill. I think that's where we get stuck, right? If that's the only thing we reach for in a moment, that's a problem. But sometimes there's space and it's culturally appropriate to reach for comfort. Colette, I'm also Italian, so hello. I mean, that's when I was a kid. The first thing, right? If you're sick, if you're sad, it's like, What are we eating? Right? That's not always bad. Sometimes, really, that touches your heart in a way that's nostalgic. So I'm not out here trying to get people to stop doing that, we just have to look at, what else should we and could we be doing in those moments?

Colette Fehr:

Right? So it's kind of like, you know, when people drink socially and moderately, truly, moderately, and they might enjoy a bottle of wine with a group of friends out on a Friday night, versus every time I'm stressed about work, I come home and I kind of turn my nervous system down with two or three drinks, and I rely on that coping mechanism, and it becomes rigid and entrenched. Same thing with food, because food is pleasure and joy and bonding and celebration. It's meant to taste good and bring us together. And, you know, the thought of a life of like, plain lettuce and boiled chicken, I'd rather just die now, yeah,

Nicole Swartz:

right, right, or there's a bigger body, right? Yes, that's part of the conversation too, that people get to of, like, okay, you know, there's certain people who are just genetically, naturally thin people, and they don't have to work hard at it. And then there's people who aren't. And sometimes it's like, you know what? I just want to enjoy myself, and if that means I have to buy the bigger pants, that's what I'm going to do. And you know, that's the space that I want to help more people get to. Is the acceptance of feeling. You know, you mentioned goal weight Colette, and I think I want people to chase a feeling. And that's not me shaming you. I'm happy for you. Yeah, that's what feels good for you. But I also want to encourage people, instead of a number, can we chase a feeling? Right? Whether that's being able to put on the first thing you pick in your closet and not change three more times? Because we all have those dates right, where it's like, oh, I can't find anything that feels good on my body. So chasing a feeling, whatever that looks like for someone,

Colette Fehr:

yeah, and my goal weight is correlated to that feeling I love. It's where I'm medically healthy. I don't want to be medically overweight, and I know some people see that differently, but my personal stance is, there is data correlated with mortality and being overweight, and I personally don't want to go that road, although I'm currently there, you know, I'm not that overweight and I'm almost obese. Well, there. I mean, I've lost a little bit of weight on this diet drug, but when I started, I was like five pounds away from being considered obese, right? So I'm, I'm looking to be at a place where I can enjoy life and food and, you know, feel reasonably comfortable and like good about how I look and not be medically overweight and find a very sane and balanced way I don't want to live anymore with food on my mind. Yeah, what did I eat? And like you said, when you said getting on the elliptical, I mean that was, like my whole life when I was young, calories in, calories out. Did I work out, did I overeat and that whole thing? I don't want to live like that anymore. So I love what you're saying about chasing a feeling and finding balance and self love.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, yeah.

Unknown:

Can, can

Laura Bowman:

we talk about though? I mean, how much do you do with the fact that we live in a culture that is, like very much stacked against us food wise? Yeah. I mean, even if you've never had a problem with food, food is going to find have a problem with you. Like, I mean, it's these addictive substances in food. It's just, I mean, what do they say we have an obesogenic culture? Like, it just, it is, it is a process, yeah? Like, all the processed food, the seed oils, the, you know, a Chick fil A on every straight corner, it's, yeah, it's hard, like, at what point do we have to begin to make, like, Sidestep all of that stuff, to have peace with, with our bodies or our health or anything? Yeah,

Nicole Swartz:

I think I come from a specific lens of understanding that there's a fear mongering piece to some of the food stuff that's out there, an account that I point people to. A lot on Instagram, we've heard of food babe, and I just tell my clients to do your research on what food babe shares. And there's another account called Food Science Babe and this person started the account to sort of debunk the stuff that food babe pushes, which is a lot of the seed oils and that whole realm of things. So I try to look for really science based information, right? We're looking for evidence based research to back some of the things that it's easy to get on social media and be inundated with propaganda, especially like in these current times, right? So we have to be careful with what we're absorbing and what we're believing based on what somebody just tells us without doing our own research. But all of that to say, I think everything comes down to balance, right? The foods that are the most addictive, so to speak of are, of course, are not. It's no one's reaching for the Apple, because you just get, like, stop thinking about wanting an apple or broccoli, right? It's the stuff that is processed. Never had that experience, right?

Colette Fehr:

Yeah? Me either, never binged on Apples. Yeah,

Nicole Swartz:

right, right. So of course, it's going to be the processed foods, it's going to be the sugar, it's going to be those things. So the approach that I teach is have what you want and add what you need. So if you're having a craving for potato chips, have the potato chips have a reasonable serving size of them. What are we going to add to that plate to help our body feel nourished and satisfied? So we're going to make sure that it's balanced right. So there is a nutrition lens, and I am not a nutritionist or a dietitian, so this is where I encourage people to make sure they're getting that support in other places. But we're gonna add fiber, we're gonna add fat, we're gonna add protein, and we're gonna have what we want. We're gonna add what we need. So like that, a mentally that feels better, but it's also helping our body process that in a way where we're keeping our health and check too?

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, I like that,

Colette Fehr:

making sure you get the nutrition, but you don't have to deprive yourself of the potato chips Exactly. So I'm curious, and for our listeners, what do you you in the coaching realm? You must still address some of that inner monolog, inner critic stuff, I imagine totally what suggestions do you have for people on how to start this journey of moving from shame to genuine acceptance? I

Nicole Swartz:

think one of the most powerful tips that I give people is start paying attention to how you're talking to yourself. I think we are all so used to our inner voice that we don't even hear it. So if we spend some time really observing, what are the things we say to ourselves every time we look in the mirror, and I ask somebody, would you say that to your best friend? And it puts people back on their heels every time. And I think that's a really powerful place for someone to start, because it's easy to do, right? We just have to pay attention and maybe record those thoughts and ask ourselves, would we ever say these things to someone we love, and how do we start treating ourselves the way we treat the people we love?

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, because we can be our own worst critic, and most of the time, people find that they would not say yeah, those things to anyone. Even a stranger they can't stand or something, sure, right? And

Nicole Swartz:

as far as all of the shame goes, that's there's a lot of unpacking there about what have the messages around food in our bodies been our whole lives? And it's going to be different for everyone. And my program is tailored specifically to each person. I don't have a curriculum that everybody gets. When we have our first session, we go through, What have your experiences been? What are your goals, so that I can tailor it specifically for people? So it's hard for me to answer that question, because everybody's journey will look different with me, but we're really going to look at what was your messaging around food. If you grew up in a house that never had sugar, we have to learn how to have sugar, because that's part of having a healthy, balanced diet. It's okay to want to have ice cream or candy or whatever the thing is. And how do we realize that, like our food doesn't determine our morality, we are not good or bad today based on what any of us eat? That's it just doesn't work that way. We've been taught that, but that's not what it is, right? So those are just a couple of examples to answer the question,

Colette Fehr:

yeah, getting away from the good and bad,

Laura Bowman:

all or nothing. Do you find that some, like, some people really struggle to, like, live in the middle space there. I mean, I think I've seen that. We see that in therapy all the time, people struggle to walk the middle path. But just even with food that like, if they begin with with something that it they have a hard time with the breaks,

Nicole Swartz:

yeah, and I think it's about, it's kind of like an exposure therapy, right? If you have someone who really has never allowed themselves to eat outside of what they deem to be good, it's very scary, right? It's kind of like working with with people who suffer from anorexia, right? All of those meals are exposure therapy in the beginning to work through the discomfort that comes up. So you know, it's starting and starting out small, if need be right, but just understanding that adding in something that you deem to be bad a we have to change the thought patterns around it. Food is neither good nor bad, right? Food is just food. Some food is more nutritious than others. Some foods do things differently in our bodies than others. This is an example of some of the language I use with my own children, of making sure that they're not going to grow up in a house where things are good or bad. So I'm that's part of the coaching I'm doing is, how do we move away from that language where we can understand how chicken breasts reacts in our body versus a cookie, right? And it's not that it's good or bad. They're doing different things in our body,

Colette Fehr:

right? And a cookie doesn't have nutritional value, or at least not much. I mean, it just doesn't. That's not labeling it. It's just the reality, whereas a chicken breast does,

Nicole Swartz:

right? And those are the conversations. Is okay, the protein is going to keep us full, it's going to give us energy, it's going to help our muscles grow, right? And this is the kind of the verbiage I use on my kids. So obviously, with adults and clients, it's a little different, right? But, okay, yes, the cookie is going to give you fast energy. We know that it's also, you know, there are foods that feed and are nutritious to our soul, right? And having a cookie is that, and that needs to be considered. That's part of breaking the diet culture is understanding that we're not just eating for the goal of being smaller. And

Laura Bowman:

sometimes you eat to feed your soul, and that's fine, and not getting stuck there that like, it's like, okay, maybe today I ate and like, soothe myself, but tomorrow I'm gonna eat to really nourish my body. And that going back and forth there is, like, is totally normal and fine,

Nicole Swartz:

totally and every day, especially as women, we have to look at, okay, where are we in our cycle? Our hormones have so much to do with how we view our bodies and how we feel and what our hunger cues are for the day. So there's flexibility. And I tell everybody, this is not a linear process. We're not like up, up, up, and then we plateau and we're perfect forever. It's never going to be that we have to anticipate that there are going to be days that are harder and easier for all of those reasons, right?

Colette Fehr:

And at menopause, things change hormonally in a big way, perimenopause, and, you know, things can really slow down if you don't keep up your muscle mass. So there's just so many factors, but it feels like finding the right path for you. You know may be different for everyone, what their goals are and what's healthy for them, but that it really is about getting rid of that self loathing piece, yes, and re narrating the way we talk about food and our physicality.

Nicole Swartz:

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think the second half of my program focuses on, you know, specifically for moms and how to do this with our kids. And, you know, it was funny last week with Halloween, and I had this realization, you know, we've, we've never put candy or sweets or anything on a pedestal with our kids. That's another piece of what I teach people is, you know, at dinner, we feed dessert with the meat. Ill, which really like, trips up my Boomer mom, who's like, you can't they're gonna eat the cookie first. And I'm like, okay, and then watch, they're also going to eat their food with it. And you know, I think in that moment, what we're teaching our kids is you don't have to earn the cookie. You don't have to ignore your fullness cue because you want to have the dessert. So we've always just had that approach. So we had Halloween, which brings up a lot of stress and anxiety for parents, because it's like, Ah, so much sugar and what's going to happen. So we came home Halloween night, they ate some of their candy. The next day, they go to school, they come home, they have yet to ask me to eat any of their candy. I have it. It's here. It's in the pantry. They know where it is. They haven't asked for it once. And I think that, the proof of how the approach works, because they have so much exposure to it that there's not an obsession about it. So that was, like a really proud moment for me to be like, Okay, this is working.

Colette Fehr:

See, I don't remember too. I mean, on the flip side of all the diet culture years ago, at least for me in the 70s, I mean, I could eat however much candy I wanted it was. I never got messages that like candy was bad. No one controlled my Halloween candy like it almost shocks me, although it shouldn't, to hear that moms are freaking out about Halloween. Sometimes, I think these younger generations, it's just exhausting how stressed out they are about every freaking thing. Like, right? Yeah, don't we have more, don't you have bigger problems in your life than how many pieces of, like, peanut butter cups your kid freaking eats?

Unknown:

I mean, I'm sorry. I

Colette Fehr:

just find it like, I mean, I would eat like, four Reese's peanut butter cups for a snack and, like, an RC Cola, and then dinner three hours later. And, like, it didn't kill me, you know, yeah.

Nicole Swartz:

And I think what's interesting is that somewhere between the 70s and the 90s is where the shift happened. And, you know, was it the the fat free movement? There's, you know, snack? Well, oh yeah, I remember the Devil's Food cookies, my mom has my favorite, I know, yeah, right. So dry, and they were very dry, but

Laura Bowman:

freebies, right?

Nicole Swartz:

And all of that that really took off in the late 80s, early 90s. And then, of course, you can't ignore the capitalism involved in diet culture, right? Totally. Just preying on people to spend their money was very nuanced, very layered. We could get into all different conversations about that, but,

Colette Fehr:

right, yeah, right. And the research shows that most people will return to their natural weight, because there is something to genetics and set points and so this like struggle to beat yourself up for not being something you think you should be. I mean, it's such a waste of your energy, your beautiful energy in life.

Nicole Swartz:

I agree, right? Yeah, that's so well said,

Laura Bowman:

you know, and I have definitely, over the years, because I have, like, really early memories of going downstairs to my the kid. My mom is a great cook, and so is my grandmother, and they'd always bake, and I, like, took the all the icing off the cake, like, I, like, just licked it all. I didn't, I guess I didn't realize that was, like, not a cool thing to do. But I did that. And I just remember being so hooked into sugar, like when they my aunt would make brownies, I would just, like do laps through the kitchen until they were gone, yeah. And to this day, if I get started on sugar like that, it can just be this, like, gerbil on a wheel thing, Me too. Me too. And it feels very like biological for me, like Colette and I were talking about how that just feels something in my system. I don't have a ton of shame about it. And now, when I kind of made it there go down that, that rabbit hole, I'm like, oh, here I go. Well, watch me go, you know, and it slide all the way to the bottom, and I'll make better decisions the next day. But I realized that even getting started that like, there's not a lot of room for balance for me with with certain foods, it's like, it's like, it's just gonna take me somewhere weird, okay, but that's having awareness of my own. Yeah, mess. I don't have a lot of Judge, shame or judgment around it. It is

Colette Fehr:

with me. Neither May, neither. Yeah,

Nicole Swartz:

right. And that's that's great, and that might be the case for someone like you. And then in another case, having regular exposure to sugar to, you know, avoid that feeling you're describing could be an approach that works, right? If you were my client, and you were describing that to me, and you were to say to me, I really want to work on this, I would say, let's try to have it every day and see where we can get with the regular exposure to it, to sort of retrain those connections in your brain that make it feel so out of control,

Laura Bowman:

right? Like, but the message is really experiment, find what works for you and see like where you land. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly,

Nicole Swartz:

because if it's not an issue, just like any client, forget, outside of my coaching, just in the therapy world, if it's not a problem for someone who am I to sit there and tell them, let's work on it, right? We all get to choose those things in our therapy process. So I agree, if it's not a problem for someone, it's not worth spending time on, right? I think that's the human experience. We're all so different that way, that's lovely. So

Colette Fehr:

yeah, and I'm glad you said that, Laura, because it's taken me a long time to to figure out even within the broader umbrella, let's say, the healthier version of like what we're labeling as not so healthy, diet culture, trying to find the ways to be healthy and to live in balance that there are so many things that sound really good and are good but just don't work for me, that I've had to really figure out what is healthy gonna look like for me, and also accepting that certain things the way my system runs biologically. And I mean, I've done tons of work on this over the year. Years, I've gone to all kinds of like, different therapies and programs and self explorations to try to figure it out. And, you know, realizing that certain things are always going to be a challenge for me. And instead of wishing they weren't, or beating myself up, like limiting sugar, but having it in moderation. You know, I have had to find other ways to cope with that reality. And it's not like, oh, it's bad and I can't have it. That's not the answer, either, but it is recognizing that I have, I believe, biologically, with like leptin and ghrelin, these hormones that control hunger and satiety. I really believe it's always a struggle for me once I get certain processed food, that's all I want. I don't want nutritious things, and I've never taken those things off the table or been like, No, I can't have them or anything like that. And this is part of what for me, I really like about this diet shot that I never or whatever you want to call it. I never thought I would do, because I was scared of what else it could do to my body. But I have to say, it's so nice. I'm still hungry. I'm losing weight very slowly, like a half a pound, maybe a week, sometimes a pound, very, very slowly, and I'm not dieting. But what's been so nice and freeing is that I do eat in a balanced way. I can have a little bit of dessert and feel satisfied, and then I don't want anymore. And it's not constantly screaming at me in my brain. More and more and more. It used to be that if there was, like, cookies or brownies in my pantry, it would be like, all I could think about, and they would be gone within 24 hours, because I would just be so pinging in my brain. And now my husband even is like, wow, that shot is crazy. He's like, we've had this, this and this, and you haven't even eaten it. It's like, more like what you describe with your kids and the candy, like, I just have some, and then I'm good. So for me, it's really been so great, and I can see for somebody else that this medication could bring them to a psychological place that maybe wouldn't be healthy. But for me, it's been really, really freeing and good, yeah, yeah. And

Nicole Swartz:

that's a lot of the feedback we're hearing from people with food noise, right? If that's a thing that people experience, that's just what you're talking about, that voice that just won't go away, that the all of the GLP ones are kind of helping quiet that and allow to figure out, yeah. And, you know, I think there's a misconception in the anti diet world and the intuitive eating world that this means the pendulum swings the other way. And you could just, it's like a free for all, and that's, that's not the thing. That's a big misconception. Nobody is teaching that, right? It's just a matter of really removing the good versus the bad. I think that that's really one of the pillars of what the anti diet movement is trying to do. We're not out here staying trash your entire diet, right? It's to live within balance and to allow yourself to have those foods without tying your morality to it, like

Laura Bowman:

tying your morality to it, yeah, or your worth, or

Nicole Swartz:

your worth, right? Yeah, exactly right. Like, oh, I had a good day today, because I ate within whatever parameters I had in my brain. It's not healthy, right? That's not where we

Laura Bowman:

should be finding our values to

Colette Fehr:

be. My dialog, like in my 20s and my teens and 20s, and that's the part that is so corrosive for us, yeah,

Laura Bowman:

and I'm glad that we're finally realizing that commenting on people's bodies. I mean, I was, I was funny. I go to the gym with my daughter. My daughter's the one that struggled with an eating disorder, but does really well with exercise and eating now, but she's, you know, she's at a lower part of her weight. Ranger now, and the trainer comes up to her and is like, you look great. Did you lose weight? And I'm just like, cringing, looking at this guy, thinking, What are you doing, man, like you don't know. Like you have no idea what, who you're talking to. And like, this is not appropriate. Like and all that does. She says, you know, Mom, when people see that, I feel like, Oh, I'm doing well, and I need to, like, keep up my advantage in the world. That's what that ticks off in her Sure. We need to understand that talking the commenting on people's bodies is just gotta go, yeah. It's gotta go, yeah.

Nicole Swartz:

I think that it just feeds the monster of, okay, smaller is better. Make sure I stay this way to whatever the consequence of that is, right? It can be incredibly damaging. And we have to just understand that that might have been a compliment 20 or 30 years ago, and nowadays it's a little more complicated than that.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, yes, and

Colette Fehr:

it should be. It should be, I hope that goes by the wayside, particularly men commenting on women's bodies. Just don't find something don't about a woman's you know what she has to say to compliment, if you really are so dead set on complimenting someone, right? Don't make it about physical appearance, and obviously for men too. I mean, I don't make mean to make this only like a heterosexually normative thing, but it's a huge problem in society. And I one of the things I love about getting older is less eyeballs of men and less commentary as I can become invisible, which I personally find very freeing. Yeah. And I just think it's like, not a Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just don't go, yeah, that's my PA.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah. I

Nicole Swartz:

appreciate you bringing up the heteronormative part. I work with a lot of LGBTQ clients in my private practice, and particularly with the men, that's a very common thread. The body stuff is there is such a high standard in that community for what they should look like, and almost all of them that I have treated have had some type of body dysmorphia there. So, you know, it's important that we shine a light on that too. It's not just women. It's not just right the heteronormative, it's happening everywhere. So I'm glad that you, you said that, Colette, thank you. Yeah,

Colette Fehr:

because I can only speak to my own personal experience. But it's certainly not unique to this the heterosexual Avenue, sure. Yeah, and I think just in general, let's stop commenting on people's bodies and stop hyper fixating on our own in those old, unhealthy, messaged ways, and start sure embracing a healthier way of being with our bodies and food. Yeah,

Nicole Swartz:

absolutely, the standards have to just be adjusted in a lot of different places. That's the bottom line there.

Laura Bowman:

And I love the work you're doing with your kids. I mean, I I so needed that in my family. Like, I mean, I internalized everything I got from my mom. And, you know, even now, I have to, like, catch myself from doing the evaluative comments of like, Oh, you look so great. Or like, shut up, Laura. It's like, no, like, it's we don't need to evaluate our kids

Nicole Swartz:

are, it's every day. It's it's being really mindful and just having some really some standards across the board that we don't use food as a reward. We don't celebrate with food too much, right? The idea of, oh, you had a bad day at school, let's go get ice cream, or, Oh, you're you had a great report card. Let's go get ice cream. That doesn't exist in our family. We just go get ice cream because it's Sunday and it sounds good, right, right, you know. And they're, I think they're just little building blocks of things you can do that start to really change the whole approach. And, you know, again, I'll always use my own kids as my example, but we do go get ice cream and they throw away two thirds of the cup of ice cream, and they're like, I've had enough, and that's it, and it goes in the trash. And, you know, you think about other kids who really struggle with, you know, hiding food, sneaking food, things like that. It's inspiring for me to see that what I'm doing is working, and I want everyone to be doing it, because it's going to be what moves the needle for this generation. So, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

yeah, and makes it just healthier to be in balance. I love it. Nicole, thank you so much. And you know, before we let you go, can you tell our listeners how they can contact you? Sure?

Nicole Swartz:

Yeah, absolutely. So the best place to find all of my information is on Instagram. My handle is anti diet, underscore therapist. Right there in my bio, you'll have a link to my application where you can read all about my program and figure out how else to contact me, whether that's through DMS, that's the best place to find me, and I'm happy to answer any questions if anyone reaches out. So, Oh, that's

Colette Fehr:

wonderful. Thanks. So. Much great work. Yeah, thank

Nicole Swartz:

you. I really appreciate the time and the space to talk about this with you guys today. Yeah,

Colette Fehr:

we're so grateful. Thank you. It's been a wonderful conversation, and thank you everyone for listening as always, if you liked what you heard today, we hope you do. Please write us a review and share this episode with your friends, and we will be back next week with more insights from the couch. You.