Insights from the Couch - Mental Health at Midlife

Ep.41: Sex, Power & Betrayal: The Twisted Psychology of White Lotus

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 4 • Episode 41

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We’re back for Season 4 of Insights From the Couch: Mental Health at Midlife, and we’re kicking things off with a juicy deep dive into the twisted psychological underpinnings of HBO’s The White Lotus. As therapists and mega-fans of the show, we couldn’t resist unpacking the layers of sex, power, betrayal, and just downright messed-up family dynamics in this season. From the uncomfortably intimate Ratcliffe family to the passive-aggressive unraveling of a trio of longtime female friends, we’re peeling back the layers and asking—what’s really going on beneath the surface?

In this episode, we explore themes of toxic relationships, sibling incest, sociopathy, competitive female dynamics, and intergenerational trauma—all through a therapist’s lens. We’re talking character analysis, psychological patterns, and the emotional truth hiding beneath the satire.

 

Episode Highlights:

[0:02] - Kicking off Season 4 and diving into the dark psychology of The White Lotus.
[2:38] - Introducing the Ratcliffe family and the incest bombshell no one saw coming.
[6:25] - Power, rivalry, and the emerging sociopathic traits in Lachlan.
[11:15] - Southern charm, status obsession, and the mother’s fragile identity.
[14:21] - Over-the-top satire: suicide, wealth, and emotional unraveling.
[16:19] - Incest in pop culture and real-world psychological roots.
[19:58] - The intergenerational transmission of incest and suicidality.
[21:46] - Capitalism and class anxiety: when status is life-or-death.
[22:29] - The unraveling of female friendship: Lori, Kate, and Jacqueline.
[27:57] - Confrontation, gaslighting, and covert female aggression.
[30:58] - Who are these women now? Friendship vs. shared history.
[33:17] - Jacqueline’s betrayal: narcissism, jealousy, and dominance.
[36:53] - Competition, attention-seeking, and the hunger for power.
[38:16] - Amy Lou and Chelsea: emotional honesty and groundedness.
[40:56] - Does Gary have an agenda? The mysterious billionaire’s next move.
[43:07] - Frank’s dark monologue and Rick’s wake-up call.
[45:19] - Looking ahead to the finale and how it might all unfold.
[47:01] - A toast to The White Lotus and a possible finale viewing party.

 

Resources:

💻 Download our free guide: Toxic Relationships & Power Dynamics: How to Recognize, Manage & Break Free → insightsfromthecouch.org

📧 Got thoughts or theories? Email us at: info@insightsfromthecouch.org

Make sure to visit the “Resources” page on our website www.insightsfromthecouch.org to download the worksheet and take ways that accompany each episode. This is hugely important as we are now creating a download that is unique to each episode and working hard to create an email list to support our programming offerings moving forward.

Colette Fehr:

Scott, welcome back everyone. To the first episode of season four of insights from the couch, mental health at midlife. We've got a great episode today. We're going to be talking about all the dark stuff and the White Lotus, the psychological behind the scenes, sex, power and betrayal, the twisted psychology of white lotus, we could not resist because Laura and I are both addicted to the show, so we're going to dive in and talk about what's going on behind the scenes with these characters, or at least our take as therapists. And we want to hear from you too, your thoughts, your questions, your comments, what's going to happen in the show. So please reach out to us at info, at insights from the couch.org. I am so excited to dig into this and talk about all the fucked up stuff going on and the White Lotus. So let's get into it, and you guys remember to go to our website, insights from the couch.org. We are going to have a download for you on toxic relationships and power dynamics, how to recognize them, how to manage them, and how to get out of that, out of them. So don't forget to check that out after we dish on the white the White Lotus. All right, let's talk about it, because there's a lot to get into.

Laura Bowman:

I'm so into it. I just, I love Mike White's writing. I love these people. I like become so obsessed on the granular details of these humans, everyone we all know, somebody like every one of them, yeah, well, most of them, I guess. Well,

Colette Fehr:

okay, just before we get into the psychological dynamics. I don't like this season as much as last season. It's a slow

Laura Bowman:

build, right there, very it's an agonizingly slow build, yeah, but I like some I love the rat lift family,

Colette Fehr:

yes. So let's go there first, because they are so complicated. And of course, the brother incest thing. Well, I want to dig into that a little bit, but just even the dynamics of the family. And you know, it was modeled after like Mike White told them to watch southern charm on Bravo, which you've probably never seen, but I why I've seen it. I've seen episodes of it. Okay, so he told the father to model this guy, T Rav, who's just a complete douche bag, like this politician, who has a string of like, sexual assault allegations and baby mamas, yeah, yeah. So that because the the main actor is British, and I know

Laura Bowman:

that's he pulls him off really convincingly.

Colette Fehr:

Okay, so what do you what stands out to you about the family, other than the fact that the brothers giving the other brother a hand chop?

Laura Bowman:

I mean, that's actually like, that was so came out of left field for me, a little bit, even though, really why it should have, because, like, it was foreshadowed quite well. Just, I just, you know what the Lachlan character who ends up giving the hand job. I saw him very much like, and I don't know how many, I'm assuming anybody listening to this with any interest follows has seen all of the seasons, but the first season, there was like a brother who was kind of like the good guy who was, like, seemingly so innocent and like outside the family drama. And I thought that this kid was that initially, and now I'm seeing him as something quite different. I

Colette Fehr:

agree. I think he's actually got the like sexual deviance issues in the sense of incest, like

Laura Bowman:

some real deep pathos there. Absolutely what

Colette Fehr:

I thought at the beginning is that the daughter was that character, the one who was not corrupted by power and money that she wanted to be, you know, in the Buddhist monastery and sort of issue all of the social bullshit her family imposes on her. But I picked up on Lachlan seeming to be very sexually interested, I think potentially even in his sister and his brother.

Laura Bowman:

I think you're right on that. I initially thought that he looked at his brother like, Oh, you poor unfortunate douche bag. But now like, that's all shifted.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, yeah. But see, I didn't think that. Okay, here's my take, and then you give me your take. Yeah, I think from the beginning and even in the first episode, first of all, I was like, this family is so weird, and not just the fact that they're superficial and ridiculous, which they're that too, but I just thought they are so messed up, and there was so much sexual overtone from the jump with the way the brother was preoccupied. The Saxon was preoccupied with what, what's the sister's name? Again, I can't believe I watched Piper. Thank you. You know, preoccupied with whether or not Piper's had sex, like picking her up. I mean, my brother and I don't like touch each other. It's just weird. And then when. Saxon went in to the bathroom that first naked scene, lachlan's gaze. I got the feeling that for Saxon, it was just like, you know, whatever. I don't give a shit. I'm gonna walk around freely in front of my brother. But I felt like Lachlan had a sexual gaze even at his brother's body in that first episode. And now what I think is that Saxon is the, you know, finance bra douche yes, that everyone loves to hate, right? He's the guy we all know, one of those, yes, yes, just totally detestable. But I don't think he has the same real sexual I think he wanted to, like, bond with the brother and help it laid. But I think Lachlan could turn out to be, I don't know where this is gonna go. And the crazy thing is, like, by the time this episode airs on Wednesday, there will be another episode out that we can't talk about. I know

Laura Bowman:

we can't talk about. And you know, I think that this just shows that I wasn't even really paying attention to Lachlan that much. Yeah, I kind of saw him as like a non entity, till he started, like, really throwing them back at, like, the Full Moon Party, and looks at the brother and said, like, one day I'm gonna own you. And I'm like, What the fuck? What do you like of that? I was like, Oh, wow. Like, you want to take this guy down. You want to bring him down a peg. Somehow,

Colette Fehr:

competition, yeah, rivalry,

Laura Bowman:

like, you know, you see yourself somehow as stronger than this guy, like you have his number, and somehow he just seems more. Maybe it's predatory, like a little sociopathy, but he seems quite comfortable with himself, whereas Saxon is quite uncomfortable with himself. And like, when this whole thing happens, he just, like, unravels, like us, you know, right,

Colette Fehr:

which I found his portrayal of that whole aspect very believable, just how, first of all, I've never been on ecstasy, but I can imagine on drugs that, you know, we're biological animals, I'm sure all sorts of things like you insert another person, your body's gonna respond. So I don't have that much trouble seeing how that could go. But I do think it speaks to another possibility with Lachlan, like giving the hand job, that maybe it's not so much that he's sexually attracted, although I really did, do feel like I've seen those longing gazes, Although who knows with Mike White's writing, but maybe it's more about Lachlan saying, This is How I can destroy this brother, he will never recover, and I don't care. Maybe he does have some sociopathy, and he just doesn't care, or some deviance. He's missing a chip, if you will, and he knows that like the one thing he could do that will destroy this man's sense of self is to have him live with the fact that his brother gave him an orgasm.

Laura Bowman:

God, it's just yeah and, but, you know, then with with his sister and I like more to come there, because now they're in the monastery together, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

I was like, is he gonna, like, make a move on her? But, I mean, yeah, but if it's power and, like, ruining, because he does seem to really care about her, genuinely care, yeah, then that would not apply. But if it's more sexual attraction to one's siblings, then it could. I know that was my first thought. I'm like, you're gonna spend the night. Oh, my God, what's he gonna do to you? Right? Put on a girdle,

Laura Bowman:

protect your genitals. I mean, like, I don't know. I mean, yeah, so, so there's, like, more questions than answers there. Like, was that just a total one off? But it doesn't, it doesn't seem to bother a lot of them at

Colette Fehr:

all. No. And I thought this was fascinating, because, you know, you don't really see a lot of sibling incest in TV. I mean, I can't think of a time reason Flowers in the Attic. How could I forget that? I mean, that was made into a movie. Did you read those books? I

Laura Bowman:

watched that movie. I don't remember incest in the movie, though. Oh, my God. Okay. Well, was it between the older bro, the older siblings when they're stuck in the attic? I think it's

Colette Fehr:

between the olders and the youngers. It's so funny. I think it's VC Andrews. When I was young, dark, I read every one of those books. And shocker, they were my favorites, not because of incest, just because it was like, dark and power, yeah. And that's my that's my thing.

Laura Bowman:

The grandmother poisoning the kids in the Yes, yes.

Colette Fehr:

It was so good. But, you know, it speaks to an interesting point. I don't think we often see two brothers. I can't think of a time I've seen two brothers in an incest case on television or in literature. How

Laura Bowman:

about the younger brother? Dominique? I hope I'm not ruining this is a spoiler alert episode. So like, if you want to see all these things, don't listen. But there's. A scene in the brutalist where this guy, who's the benefactor of of the architect, he takes advantage of him and, like, sodomizes him while he's drunk. And it's a and it's you get the sense that it's not entirely sexual. You get the sense that it's an act of dominance. Exactly,

Colette Fehr:

yeah, exactly same

Laura Bowman:

sense, a little bit with Yeah.

Colette Fehr:

And, you know, another possibility along those lines is that the brother, to your point about you didn't even really pay attention to Lachlan. I think that's the dynamic in the family. Yeah, everybody else is so dominant in their own way, and he just sort of fades into the wallpaper. So it's also possible that this kid's just looking for ways to fit in, ways to be seen, ways to find intimacy, and they've taken this really virulent pathological form. And it wouldn't be totally shocking, because sometimes when incest arises in families. It's a function of enmeshment of an abusive family. And even though they present and think of themselves as this ideal Southern family, their dynamics, all of them are extremely toxic.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, you think the moms like swallowing, like benzodiazepines. Well now, now her husband is, I mean, the family is about to implode, and the biggest concern that the mother seems to have is like, Will Lachlan go to like UNC Chapel Hill or Duke,

Colette Fehr:

I know, I know, or will, will Piper stay in Thailand and ruin her prospects? It's such a throwback to like, the Bronte days, you know, Jane Eyre and Sense and Sensibility in a much more toxic form. This mother's living out of an old playbook where, like, your children have to be socially, strategically placed, and that's all that messed

Laura Bowman:

with it. And, I mean, that's the thing you get, is like how fragile her identity is like, when she contemplates, like, not having money, she's like, I'm not sure I'd want to live and, I mean, she's that's honest, like she thinks that is that would be the absolute death of her identity. Because, I mean, she's constantly talking about, like, our values and people like

Colette Fehr:

us, right? This is where I have to say. And I love Mike White, because I'm a big survivor fan, and he was on survivor. And I do think there's so much great stuff in these shows. I've watched every episode of every season, and I can't wait to dissect it afterwards, yeah, but I do have a criticism of his writing. Personally, I think a lot of it is very heavy handed and on the nose.

Laura Bowman:

Well, it is, and I know what it kind of makes it fun. Like, even the names, like, I don't know if you've caught this, but like, the character names are very like, like, Dickens style. Like, yeah, you know, Leslie Bibbs character is named Kate bore like, she's the boring boar. And it's like, so I just think it is very on the nose, and I, and I kind of think that's the kind of fun about it. And then it it jumps into the fact that Tim realizes the husband, like, maybe I have to pull off a murder suicide. Maybe it's not even compassionate to leave this woman behind. Yeah, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

no, I actually believed that that second suicide I really bought into, I thought for a minute, like, it happened.

Laura Bowman:

I almost, I almost think that maybe he has to kill his son too. Like, I'm not sure Saxon could take the ego death of not being the, you know, the protein shake heir to a big like, you know, I don't know what kind of fortune. I don't know. I

Colette Fehr:

think he has time to rebound. I don't think Saxon can take the ego death of having gotten a hand job from his brother.

Laura Bowman:

I think he's very

Colette Fehr:

fragile in lots of ways. Yeah, we might have to kill him off for that alone. But let me just be clear, I like the over the top and on the nose satirical component of the characters. Like there

Laura Bowman:

was another moment I think this was the first time you said to me that you didn't love this was the moment that Carrie Coon's character, who plays Laurie, you know, sees her friends and she knows they're talking shit about her, and she just like, has, like a primal scream and like weeps. And it's like we didn't need to see this to know how that impacted her,

Colette Fehr:

right, right? And not in that way. Yes, some of it's just to let the characters be more subtle in their dialog, because we've heard you've drawn the character so well, but Okay, so before we move on to because I'm dying to talk about the the three female friends, yeah. But anything else you want to say about this tragic North Carolina family? And do you think, I mean, I could care less who dies? I find that to be the least interesting. I know it's the conceit of the show, but it's like, who cares

Laura Bowman:

to me, I do. I do find it funny how the gun is being passed around. Like we know the gun is used. We. A gun is used, like we don't know, to the max, totally. I mean, I am surprised, just from like a human level, that Tim is even, like standing after drinking as much and like popping all these, like benzos, that he can even form a coherent sentence, yeah, but who knows, or

Colette Fehr:

that she can go through withdrawal if she's taking benzodiazepines daily. You know, benzodiazepines and alcohol are the only two drugs that can kill you. Yeah, seizures,

Laura Bowman:

yeah. She seems like not as annoyed as you would expect, or as like panic stricken as you would expect a person who really lost their

Colette Fehr:

pills. And so this is where it goes back into the caricature, and we just sort of have to accept that. But it seems like it can't be the dad who dies by suicide, because that's too obvious. It's too obvious, right? And I feel like it's gonna be, I don't I don't know anyone's name. Who's the like sweet little Thai couple, the unrequited love. I could see him dying. Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

he seems very like sacrificial lamb, right?

Colette Fehr:

Yes, yes, definitely. Like, he doesn't

Laura Bowman:

know he's surrounded by vipers. Like, they're always like, you know, showing those two like, thug bodyguards. And he's like, he wants to be a body. He's never going to be a bodyguard, but he's going to get offed by one of them, probably.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Oh, and you know, what else I wanted to just say, because, just because I think it's interesting, and we were chatting about this before, before we get too away from the incest thing that that Wester Marc effect, because I was trying to understand, what are these dynamics. I will say, In all my years of therapy, doing trauma therapy, so many clients who have been through Sexual Abuse Incest in their families, but not siblings. I've never had a client, have you like brother sister?

Unknown:

I have, oh, my God. Oh, wait. I have, wait,

Colette Fehr:

I have two. I have, and I have what I haven't had. Sorry, I have, you know what I haven't had? That. I'm thinking of two brothers. I haven't had a brother perpetrate another brother. I've had lots of brother sister.

Laura Bowman:

I've had that at like, I don't even want to talk about it. It's too much. Yeah, I can't talk about it. Okay, add some wacky stuff.

Colette Fehr:

Okay, yeah, but I do think, again, it's not something we see in pop culture. Obviously, it goes on. It goes on right. But trying to understand how that happens. And obviously there are multiple reasons, but this western Marc effect, this anthropologist in the 1890s discovered that there's a genetic reason, an evolutionary reason that kids who grew up in the early years together typically don't develop a sexual attraction to one another, even if they're not biologically related. And it's more than just I used to think it was the way You're conditioned, like you learned this is my brother, right? So you just don't think of the person that way. But actually, it's really a genetic thing that we just don't develop attraction to people we grew up with when we're kids. Because if there's incest among siblings, it can lead to major genetic problems, and it's not as advantageous for procreation. I Oh, no, absolutely,

Laura Bowman:

you know. But I wanted to say that this is my own gut feeling. I don't I'm not saying that there's even research behind this, but I do feel like when there's incest in like a way that's perpetrated over a long period of time, or even when it's perpetrated in adulthood, which I've seen, yeah, wow. I always feel like with the individual perpetrating there's like, a decent amount of sociopathy at playing interesting. There's just something off. It's, it is a little bit of an act of dominance. It's a little bit of, like this sexual liability, where they can, they can, kind of take advantage of anything, brother, sister, partner,

Colette Fehr:

I think that's a viable scenario. I just don't know if I think that's the only scenario. Oh, I know it's not the only I just Yeah. I mean, I also think that the if you're abused by a parent or step parent, then we know that kids will then act out that are abuse, often on their siblings. But I don't think that's the case with Lachlan, and also it may be a result of the fact, again, in a very pathological way, but that he feels totally disconnected, and he's trying to find ways not only to get power and dominance, but to be close to these siblings, I suspect that's not it. It's more deviant. But I think sometimes the incest can come from like a very unhealthy enmeshment that just doesn't set the right boundaries. Yeah, depending on what's going on at the executive subsystem, I

Laura Bowman:

think you're absolutely right, and I. Also want to say, because we'd be remiss not to, is that, you know, incest is one of these intergenerational transmission processes. So like, if it's in your family for multiple generations, it tends to get passed down like a bad yeah. And

Colette Fehr:

if it's in your family at all, it can get passed down, right? Yeah, yeah. And same thing with suicidality, I think sometimes people don't realize that we're seeing this father and the Ratcliffe family who it's a situational crisis that he doesn't know how to tell his wife. Not only will his wife not be okay, she will probably hate him for it. I mean, he's really shit the bed, and that may prompt him to take his life. I don't think it will, but he's definitely contemplating it. But for a lot of people, suicidality is more endogenous, meaning, you know, it's genetically passed. It's part of the brain structure. And I think a lot of people have trouble understanding that. Some people's brains tell them all the time like you should really die, you're better if you're not here. And people who don't have that sometimes are very hard on people. How could you do this to people in your life? And you just really don't know what people go through 100%

Laura Bowman:

and you know, the thing that we haven't talked about is just the capitalistic grind that this family is a part of, and this class system where, you know, you do a ten million deal for with a buddy, but that's like, the, you know, that's the price of being in that class, yep. And, I mean, I'm waiting for the credit card to stop working. I know. I'm waiting for somebody to go like, ma'am, we tried to process your massage to work. Okay,

Colette Fehr:

so let's talk about the three female friends, because love it. It's fascinating. And I think this is one so many of us women at our age are really relating to, you know, because they're a little bit older. Even though they're they're younger than we are. They're, you know, right, aren't they around 40 years old? I think to me, this is the best writing of the show, really showing the competitive nature of female relationships for some people, and it's fascinating to watch this train coming off the tracks with these three what, what's your take?

Laura Bowman:

Ah, so many takes. Like, I mean, it's like, this old friend group that, I mean, everybody's trying. I mean, they're all trying to look great, except for Lori's character, who's, like, obviously, been through a lot, and so she's not on the same in the same league as her, like, rich Texas friend played, you know, Kate, and then

Colette Fehr:

she's wealthy, she's successful, she's wealthy,

Laura Bowman:

but she's like, a New Yorker. And, you know, I actually listened. And if anybody, like, really wants to go deep into the White Lotus. They have a whole podcast, yeah? And, like, I heard her talk about her character, and they said that they made, like, really intentional details like that. She was always a shade off with her clothes, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

yeah. She doesn't have the panache, but she's not, like,

Laura Bowman:

even her nail color is wrong, yeah. Like, that was the same amount of effort. She doesn't dress as well. She's frumpy compared to the other two. She's from, but she's not of a different socio economic status. That's what I was pointing out, right? But I right, but I think she all of her inadequate and adequacies come into sharp relief around those two and and then even the Texan feels her inadequacies in sharp relief to Jacqueline, who's like the famous person. So they're just nobody's feeling good enough. You know, with here, they are supposed to be friends having this great, like, time together, nobody. I mean, I don't even know if Jaclyn is feeling good enough because her boyfriend isn't tech her husband isn't texting her.

Colette Fehr:

Well, I think Jacqueline is actually the one who's most feeling not good enough

Laura Bowman:

because she Yeah, like she's but she's constantly she's the one that has that piece of like being constantly on the take for male attention, right? And

Colette Fehr:

that is the biggest gaping hole sign of not feeling good enough, if there's ever been one. I mean, you're in your 40s, whatever age you are, and you're so desperate for male attention that you have to sleep with this, like Russian that you've been pushing on your on your friends,

Laura Bowman:

as if that she needs to get laid and have a great time, and then you just swoop in at the last minute and, like, grab him up. But

Colette Fehr:

that was the part that I found the least surprising. Like, we've all had some version of that where, like, a friend one ups you, and this is what I thought was so under interesting about the psychology of it that we've chatted about. You know that women have more of an indirect aggression. Right? And we know that we're all comparative, right? We're always trying to judge how well we're doing by comparing ourselves to those in our social group, but that men tend to be outright aggressive. Like, if there's a problem, men will, like, have a physical.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, what the fuck you doing? Dude? Like, just get right face called

Colette Fehr:

out, or it's enacted physically or verbally aggressively. Women tend to be indirect and covert, and that actually the way women try to exert like alpha status and dominance, right, one upping each other, is through backstabbing, backhanded compliments, which we know are insults, you know, taking the guy that you wanted to have, and I don't even care about him, but I can have him like that, and you can't even score him. And my needs are right? It's this. So I just see them power, playing each other constantly, and that also the triangulation of which so many women do, let's be honest. And it has various degrees of meanness to it that you leave the table and it's like, oh, Laura, you know that outfit. I wonder if she's going through a hard time. She doesn't look like herself today. Did? She came a little way. Obviously, I would never shaking too much. Her eyes look puffy. That engaging quickly? Yes, that is all a way to exert dominance.

Laura Bowman:

This is why women don't want to be friends with other women. Sometimes it's like they just have been bitten by this too many times. And yeah, there is no safety often

Colette Fehr:

of women, right? But this also makes me reflect on how fortunate I've been, because I just do not have friends like this. For the most part, I've, I've known people and I want, I don't want them in my life, but like my closest friends, like even growing up, other than in middle school, I had an incident, and it was like handled. But in high school, even I just don't feel like my friends were like this, and I don't have any friends who are like this. Now, I know,

Laura Bowman:

I mean, I've, I've certainly had friends that were like this, and have gradually pulled away, and I don't, I don't tolerate that in my life, like, if I sniff that out, I'm like out of there very quickly. Me too. Me too. But in this situation with these three friends, like they've, they're, like, historical friends, yeah, and I'm, I'm just really curious, too, what you thought about the moment where they're sitting by the pool and, like, Lori does her best to confront Jacqueline, like, hey, we haven't changed. Like, this stuff went on in the 10th grade, like, you're still the same. The moment that, like, just blew me away, was that Jacqueline just absolutely dismissed it, like, that's not even you're like, so far off base, like, the gaslighting of like, you don't see what you see. You don't know what you

Colette Fehr:

know. I know you know what's happening,

Laura Bowman:

what it just came over like nothing happened. Yeah, bullshit. We don't know what happened.

Colette Fehr:

And she also knows that nobody's gonna believe that, and doesn't care. I mean, Jacqueline is that creature who is so narcissistic, so egoic, she's gonna get what she wants, no matter what, whatever makes her feel good and fills her up she's gonna do no matter how it impacts others. What I liked was that I liked that Lori confronted her. I loved that, yeah, and that she called it out. And I was not surprised by Jacqueline's reaction. And then, is it Kate? What's the other friend? Okay, yeah, I always want to call them by their actress name. I know she was like, you know, I think one of the parts I love the most about Kate, I feel like I've been this person, but I found that to be so human and relatable. And then they get back to the pool, and they're splashing and throwing up their tops and she's in her pajamas, like, with

Laura Bowman:

that guy, she's like, being held hostage by that guy who's like, trying to tell her, like, the life story. Yeah, okay, night's over. But

Colette Fehr:

I loved that. Also that was, like, exerting a boundary, like they do have these little moments of of healthy behaviors. I also think a component of it. I don't relate to the mean girl thing, but I have definitely known those people, and we certainly have clients who go through this in their friendships. I mean, it's common, unfortunately, but I also thought it was interesting the idea of friends that are formed because I'm someone who's friends with and keeps in touch with people from early in my life and our personality can be so the same, but some of your friends maybe are people that you wouldn't necessarily become friends with today. Yes, you know, it was born of the shared experience, which is a huge part of how friendships form. You're in the same school, you live in the same dorm, right? These shared. Experiences, and now in adulthood, we really pick more. Who do we connect with, at least if you're not out for superficial friendships. Like, I don't want to be friends with you because you go to the same country club. I want to be friends and I don't even go to a country club. I want to be friends with you because you might have nothing in common with me, but like, I like how you are. I like who you are. I enjoy my conversation with you. I feel connected to you. There are certain things we might be interested in, we can talk about. So to me, these characters also are people who would never form a friendship now,

Laura Bowman:

right? And I love how like, Kate has gone to Texas and become like, clearly, like a Republican by the Republican Country Club set, and her friends are just like looking at her sideways. Yeah, they do not have relatable lives. No. Where do you see these three headed What do you see? Like? Do you see, like a climax moment in this

Colette Fehr:

I think it's very possible they don't like each other. They don't, it's not even really, oh, we're close friends, and we have little competitive streaks. They don't like each other, and they're

Laura Bowman:

not, like, particularly relevant to each other, like, especially like, you know, Lori's like, going through this, you know, she's an attorney in New York City, she's paying like what palimony to her ex husband. I mean, she does not relate to these women.

Colette Fehr:

No, yeah, no, she's developed herself in ways that they haven't. She has more substance just as a character, more gravitas. She might have an alcohol use disorder. Yes, I think so. I think she does have a drinking process. Yeah. I mean, substance use may be situationally induced. I mean, I had that during my divorce too, and I'm not, yeah, an alcoholic, but I definitely acted like an alcoholic and drank like an alcoholic during my divorce at at phases. So I think that's very relatable also. But I think even before Jacqueline stole her man, I think Lori doesn't have any respect for either of the other characters fundamentally,

Laura Bowman:

yeah, and it's a great point, but it doesn't stop the two of them from making her feel like shit, right, right?

Colette Fehr:

Because, at the end of the day, mean girl behavior hurts, even when you're in your 50s, your 40s, you're saying it hurts being excluded. Hurts being gossiped about. I mean, I have had things like that happen where I wasn't included or invited, or someone, oh, I'm thinking of a couple things where someone made comments to me in front of other people that like were very thinly veiled put downs. Yeah, it was. It's really painful, even if you know in your mind, who cares? I don't need this person. I don't want a friend like that. We're still human, and it's painful. Do you think,

Laura Bowman:

on Jacqueline's part, that the whole thing is conscious, like her, sort of like throwing Valentine at Laurie? Do you think that's a conscious realization, like at the last, you know, really, I'm gonna bag him at some moment.

Colette Fehr:

I could see it going either way. My take on the way it unfolded on the show was that, you know, Jacqueline probably was, to some degree, fine with it if Laurie was with Valentin. Valentin, I've heard his name pronounced every which way, but once her husband wasn't calling her back. And she knows what that means. I mean, oh, my phone wasn't charged for a week. You know, come on, and her husband's younger. And of course, anytime a couple publicly proclaims out the wazoo how in love and perfect they are. You know, their relationship sucks, right? It's that whole thou doth protest too much. You know, my young husband will never get sick of each other sexually, we're like, so into each other, right? Which was such a death now, right? Yeah. And also, it's such a rubbing salt in the wound thing to say to someone going through a divorce. It's so toned down death. But I think when she realizes, wow, my husband is blowing me off. He's totally bagging some hot little young actress. She's like, going to get mine right now exactly. And then the needs of her ego Trump friendship, and she just doesn't care. You know, I don't know that she went into if the husband was paying attention to her, I don't know that she would have interfered, but I still think she could have on the dance floor if it was feeling good. And

Laura Bowman:

did you notice the moment where Jacqueline's like, grinding with the Russians and the girls and looking at the women, and that is just like gassing her up like she just is loving. And I think this is really important to talk about in female friendships, or just female aggressive. Behavior, yes, is that to get another girl or woman fixated on you, like jealously in a jealous way, for some women, is like the greatest high of all highs. I

Colette Fehr:

am so happy that I don't have one ounce of that in me. I am not competitive with other women. I know I have an abundance mindset. Well, that's why we're friends, because I don't, I literally cannot lose respect faster for someone than when they're like that. Not only do I have an abundance mindset, and it's part of it, I have such wonderful female friends. I love them. I want them to succeed. I'm not mad at them when they have something i don't i don't have, or that I even if it's something I want, I can be jealous or envious, but it's that whole way of saying, okay, that shows me what I want in life, right? I don't resent the other person, so I just don't love the cattiness. But you're right. There are women who are like that. There are even women who their whole thing they get off on is taking other women's men. I know I can think of two examples,

Laura Bowman:

which is, I mean, that's such a like, underdeveloped woman who is, like, so hooked on male attention for their own validation and like, like we were saying in the beginning, like that insecurity of like, I just need to grab male attention and I'll get it. I'll get it from anywhere I can get it from, whether it's your man or her man.

Colette Fehr:

Yep, exactly. And then on top of it, someone like Jacqueline wanting to see the women jealous of her and to dominate, to show these women who are younger, like, I'm the one that these men want, not you. That's her source, that's her supply, that's her source of power.

Laura Bowman:

So, yeah, so just a note on these three friends, like, I can see this artistically, like them wheeling their suitcase to the airport and like, being like, being exhausted, and being like, never again, like, Oh,

Colette Fehr:

I think that's in real life. That's exactly what would happen. We'll have to see what Mike White has decided. It would be super interesting if one of them ended up being the one who dies. That would actually be interesting to me. I don't know why. How about Jacqueline? I could not abhor her

Laura Bowman:

more. Well, she deserves, she if one of them deserves to be off, yeah, it might be her crimes against other women. Yeah, and

Colette Fehr:

I just couldn't like I would have loved to see more, a little more interaction with them and the rat cliffs, like the boys,

Laura Bowman:

yeah, yeah, maybe we will Saxon. Maybe Saxon will regain his manhood with one of them, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

um, maybe Saxon will, like, sexually assault a woman in, like, a really bad attempt to a really horrible, deviant attempt to, like, reassert his masculine dominance. Let's hope it doesn't go down that, yeah, I know I'm rewriting the show, but Okay, so let's touch on Amy Lou. Amy

Laura Bowman:

Lou would and I, I've got to say she might be my favorite character. Her name is Chelsea. I love her. Chloe, yeah, yeah. I love them. I love them. Some of the conversations they've had have been priceless, like, when, when, uh, Chloe looks at Chelsea and says, like, you can't save your life. Rescuing you can't write. You know, rescue a man, you're gonna ruin your life. I was like, yes, yeah, I love Chelsea and those tea, me too, me too. And she's so like, like, emotionally honest at points, yeah, she

Colette Fehr:

is the narrator, like, the the normal, healthy view on the show. I think even

Laura Bowman:

though she's got her own, like, vulnerabilities, obviously she's following Rick around, and she's, like, gotten bitten by a snake and the whole thing, but she

Colette Fehr:

really, I think she really loves him. She does, and I think she has a groundedness. I mean, to me, one of the most powerful moments was when Saxon said, Why haven't I been it? Why couldn't I get you to hook up with me? And she said, because it would be empty. You're soulless. You have no soul. And he was shook. Now, of course, there's more to it than just that, but, you know, I felt like for a minute he didn't know what to make of that. And it's true, she speaks the

Laura Bowman:

truth, but and not in a mean way. I mean, she's not overly aggressive about it. She's just sort of, like, gentle, in a gentle honesty, like even the scene where she pulls Rick to the front of the boat and she's like, look like, I'm gonna leave if you don't tell me what's going on, yeah. Like, I can't do this. Yeah. And then he, like, opens up to her. It's like, she's. She's she's able to get to, like, authenticity in a way that so many of the characters can't, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

and I think even Chloe can do some of that, although Chloe is more calculated and she's like, look, this is a good situation. I'm not leaving you know, she's somebody who's practical. She's a hustler. She's gonna figure it out. I thought it was a little naive and ridiculous that she actually thinks the killer guy from last season, I It's so bad that I don't know anyone's name, but that he actually wants Yes. Is that it Greg who killed? Okay, so Gary, it's Gary. Gary, yes, Gary, good call. I couldn't believe she actually thinks Gary this like, you know, billionaire murderer. Maybe she doesn't know the murderer, but that he wants her to bring the guy she hooked up with back to the I mean, come on.

Laura Bowman:

But do you think that's what makes that guy tick?

Colette Fehr:

No, I don't. I don't think, I don't think he could give a crap. Oh, I do. I do. Are we back to dominance? Yeah, I think it's still, even if I don't care about Chloe, Chloe's still my possession, and you just came and, like, used my toy, you know, peed on my pole. Like, I don't think he's gonna like that, but I think he has some, who knows what the motive is, but he has some reason for this. I could see him doing something to Saxon.

Laura Bowman:

I think it's all a bit of like subterfuge, just to get Belinda, the character who knows his identity, like back on the boat, maybe you know, or to house. What's

Colette Fehr:

the necessity? What's the necessity of being like, oh, bring the guy you hooked up with, like, invite other people, have the hotel concierge. It just doesn't make sense to maybe he just wants a group, I don't know, right? But then why have the guy that your girlfriend's

Laura Bowman:

gonna He's gonna flex on him somehow? Yes,

Colette Fehr:

maybe it'll be subtle. Maybe it'll be extreme, I don't know, but I don't think he's just like, Oh, cool. No big deal. That's high. Bring him over, and then do we think that he's gonna harm Belinda, or is she gonna continue on for seasons to come or pop up again? Is she like the Jennifer Coolidge, and this is her second hope

Laura Bowman:

he doesn't hurt Belinda. I love Belinda. I love Belinda's son. I think that they're like, again, another, like, healthy point on the show, another moral center, a moral center. And I would like hate to see her be collateral damage. Out of all of the people that could be collateral damage,

Colette Fehr:

I agree, and I don't. I feel like she won't be I think that would be so upsetting to the audience, because she's one of the few people, people like I

Laura Bowman:

do think there's going to be a twist we can't fathom, and I don't know what that is, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

oh my gosh. If, for any of you who are listening, if you have ideas of what you think the twist, or what you think about what we're saying and you disagree. Let us know. I'm dying to hear like I want to talk about this with everyone. I want to

Laura Bowman:

talk about it with everyone too. I want to hear everybody's thoughts. My husband, like loves Rick. Oh, and we, you know, what we didn't even talk about is Frank Sam Rockwell's monolog. Oh, my God. I loved it. I loved it. It was so dark. But it was even more exciting to see Rick's face and to see him finally, for one moment, get out of his own victim naval gazing and go, Holy shit. Maybe other people are more fucked up than I

Colette Fehr:

am. His face was priceless, priceless.

Laura Bowman:

He's like, You're kidding, right? Like, you gotta be kidding. And then he was like, whoa. Like, it made some space, because he's in tunnel vision with this idea that he's gonna off the man, you know, that killed fire.

Colette Fehr:

So not believable. Yeah, I find it so not believable. That whole storyline, it feels contrived to me. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I just I'm not I'm not into it. I loved the monolog scene to a degree. I think it went on a little long for me. And sometimes I feel like we're just trying to do shock value, to do shock value,

Laura Bowman:

although I don't know. Man, I've heard stuff like this, like, I've heard things like this. It's not like this doesn't exist in the world.

Colette Fehr:

No, I'm not saying that, but I've heard that stuff too. But when you pack it all into one episode, and it's every crazy thing. Just sometimes it feels a little gratuitous.

Laura Bowman:

I'm here for it. I'm here for the gratuitous nature of the show. Okay, I

Colette Fehr:

like the more character driven dynamics, like I want to see more of the human interplay. I don't love the four. Saying of this, like crime drama part, or every character has

Laura Bowman:

do a lot of things, yes, yeah. And that's, I think, the nature of it, right,

Colette Fehr:

right? Some people probably like some parts better, but I do think the character dynamics are fascinating, and I can't wait to see we have what, two more episodes. Two more

Laura Bowman:

episodes. They gotta fit some stuff in here. Yeah, so this

Colette Fehr:

Sunday at nine will be the penultimate episode, and that will have aired by the time you guys are listening, which is crazy.

Laura Bowman:

I wonder if we caught anything that might happen. I know so far off base,

Colette Fehr:

I'll be so curious to know. So please give us some feedback. Our email is info at insights from the couch.org. And again, Laura and I put together a little download for you guys on playing off of white lotus power dynamics and toxic relationships, how to manage those kind of relationships and how to break free. So check out our website, insights from the couch.org, and resources section, and you'll find that and lots more stuff from previous episodes. So I just I can't wait to see what happens. And we're so grateful you guys joined us to talk about this today.

Laura Bowman:

We all need to get together and have a white lotus viewing party. We

Colette Fehr:

should have a white lotus finale party. Totally, totally we should. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's have a little viewing party that would be so

Laura Bowman:

fun to our white lotus

Colette Fehr:

party. So it's not this Sunday, it's next Sunday, right? Yeah. So perfect. After I've done my TEDx talk,

Laura Bowman:

you'll be quite loose and ready to enjoy ultimately, I'll

Colette Fehr:

be ready to act like Jacqueline on the dance floor or Lori

Laura Bowman:

in the pool. Luckily, there's no pool around. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. You have a pool. We'll come to your house. Okay? We'll reenact the Full Moon Party. Oh,

Colette Fehr:

my God, no, please, please. I think I'll settle for a glass of red wine and sitting on my couch. Yeah, sounds awesome. Okay, you guys, thank you so much for listening. And as always, if you liked what you heard, please take a moment to leave us a five star review, or whatever review you think we deserve. It helps us get our word out to everybody else who might benefit from these episodes and drop us a comment. If there's something you want to hear more about on the show, a topic you think would be interesting, we love getting those. And if you have a particular question that you want us to answer, reach out. We're happy to do that, and otherwise we will see you next week. Take care. You.