Insights from the Couch - Real Talk for Women at Midlife

Ep.55: The Midlife Mirror: How Toxic Vanity can Derail Happiness and how to Find Peace and Acceptance With Aging

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 5 • Episode 55

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What happens when the reflection staring back at you no longer matches the youthful image in your mind? In this episode, we peel back the layers of the “midlife mirror” to explore how aging intersects with body image, vanity, and the deep-seated need for validation. We get raw and real about the emotional shifts that come when our appearance begins to change—and how those shifts impact everything from self-esteem to social dynamics.

Join us as we unpack the roots of toxic vanity, explain what dysmorphia really looks like (clinically and subclinically), and reflect on our own personal journeys through beauty, invisibility, and evolving self-worth. If you've ever stood in front of the mirror and thought, “Wait, when did I become her?”—this conversation is for you. Let’s talk about what it means to feel alive, radiant, and beautiful from the inside out.

 

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] - Kicking off with real talk: what “midlife mirror” means and why it hits hard.
 [2:06] - Defining dysmorphia and the subtle ways it shows up in everyday life.
 [4:28] - Feeling invisible: grappling with the shift in public attention as we age.
 [7:39] - The paradox of pretty: how beauty can become both power and prison.
 [9:56] - Midlife body changes and the identity crisis that follows.
 [12:15] - Our personal glow-up stories—and what we learned from them.
 [16:15] - From Botox to body neutrality: what beauty means to us now.
 [18:04] - Drawing the line between healthy vanity and toxic preoccupation.
 [22:32] - The ultimate glow-up? Owning your life force and inner radiance.
 [24:17] - How early messages about looks shape our adult self-worth.
 [27:09] - Social media’s role in distorting beauty standards—at every age.
 [28:49] - Tips for cultivating body neutrality, mindfulness, and self-connection.
 [30:56] - A final reflection: life force > wrinkle-free face, every time.

 

Resources:

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Colette Fehr:

Sarah, welcome to insights from the couch, where real conversations meet real life at midlife, where Colette and Laura, your hosts back again, two therapists and best friends walking through the journey right alongside you, whether you're feeling stuck, restless or just unsure of what comes next. This is the space for honest conversations, messy truths and meaningful change. And if you find yourself nodding along you have questions, join our free community at insights from the couch.org It's called the chat. This is where we keep these conversations going, and where women like you and us are finding clarity, momentum and connection. All right, let's dive in. I'm tempted, as I tee up this episode to start singing your Sylvain, you probably think, but that would be about my ex husband, and that's not what we're here to talk about this episode. So what we are here to talk about today is coming to terms with aging at midlife and how toxic vanity can derail your happiness, the midlife mirror, if you will. Let's face it, things are changing, and we want to talk about how what the healthy balance is that it's normal to care about your looks, but also that we can get stuck in dysmorphia, which we will explain and obsession, leading to all kinds of adverse health consequences, disconnection and misery, and instead, how to kind of come to terms with it and feel good about how you look, regardless of what that actually looks like. So let's, let's jump in. I want to hear your thoughts first.

Laura Bowman:

I mean, is this like? I've seen this in my office a lot. I see all kinds of dysmorphia, like we use that term. We're throwing it around a little bit casually, but there are people who will literally have a migrating obsession

Colette Fehr:

about, okay, but before you go on, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but go ahead and define it for our listeners, because not everybody knows what dysmorphia

Laura Bowman:

true body clinical term morphia is like kind of a permutation in my mind, of like an obsessive, compulsive way of thinking that gets applied towards the Body, where you really have a very distorted belief around part or parts of your body, I typically see it migrate. So if one and there, you can often be like an obsession with like plastic surgery, but it can be dieting and all sorts of things. And when one part of the body gets, like, dealt with or addressed, it just tends to jump to another part of the body, right? And so there's really a constant focus on self and perfecting the self, and that you can't really participate in life. This is where it gets really hard, where so you can't really participate in life, unless and until these things get addressed. Yeah.

Colette Fehr:

Obsession with it. Yeah, and I want to add to that, that people when we're talking about vanity, and whether it's body, obsessing over wrinkles, feeling overweight, that many women, and I think this is a big part of what we're honing in on today, experience subclinical dysmorphia, so it's not quite a pathological diagnosis. Just to get this back to real terms, it's really fixating on perceived flaws that other people probably don't notice or barely notice or don't care about. And it's fascinating to me how many friends, clients, people I interact with who are stunningly gorgeous, and they are obsessed with the fact that, you know, they have this one spot on their face. Now, in a minute, I want to get into like, where my thing is. Like, I do think we notice our own stuff more, and that's normal. But let me just give you one stat before we go further, because I find this fascinating. Where is it? I want to read it exactly as is okay, according to a 2021 AARP study, unless you feel like AARP is for people who are too old, we're not saying we're all that age, but literally, almost 70% of women over 40 report feeling invisible in public spaces.

Laura Bowman:

Yes, I've had this. I mean, I I'm getting that. I get to see this played out in full force with my daughter. Because my daughter is 22 probably at like that the height of her like stunning youth, and she's quite beautiful. You have, you have some beautiful daughters as well. So you get to feel this too. And I get to watch men my age, all ages, just stare at her stale, stare a hole through her. And I'm like, Oh, wow. Like. I have, like, aged out. Yeah,

Colette Fehr:

you're, you're, you don't even freaking. I told you, I just experienced this in Delray and, like, insane. I even said to my husband, when I was 21 and I was in that fertile when I was the most beautiful, technically, objectively, I'd ever be. I don't remember 52 year old men hitting on me.

Laura Bowman:

So you weren't tuned in. Well, I think I wasn't clearing you. We just weren't paying attention. I

Colette Fehr:

think moms and daughters didn't like go out together, like I just went out with my 21 year old daughter. First of all, my mom and I were not like going up and down Atlantic Avenue in Delray Beach, like having cocktails, right? So it wasn't in that environment that wasn't a thing back then, and I didn't go to bars that 52 year old men hung out at when I was 21 and if somebody tried to hit on me of my age when I was 21 I would have literally vomited on their shoes. So that wouldn't have gone far. But I also think, you know, for you guys listening, we live in Florida, and I'm talking about places in South Florida. And this also may be, I don't think it's a unique phenomenon, but this may be heightened and South Florida, where these men feel perfectly entitled to, like, go after my daughter as if

Laura Bowman:

she'd be on their wallets right, like they feel they've earned the right.

Colette Fehr:

Now, what I noticed, and then I want to get back to like, defining the problem before we give the solutions. But what I noticed about the experience of noticing everybody, noticing my daughter, that made me feel good, was how at peace with it I was I didn't feel and I know not everyone feels that way. And I will tell you there are times in my life when maybe I wouldn't have felt that way, but I think I'm in such a good place with me, and I'm getting so much validation from myself and more meaningful pursuits that My looks are not as important to me. I'm still vain, don't I still get Botox, and we can talk about all of that. So it's not like I don't care about my looks at all, but I think male validation has lost its luster for me. I don't really care if men find me attractive. I feel like I find me attractive. And you know what? I want my husband to find me attractive, but the rest of the world, it's not that appealing to me anymore, and at one time that was not true.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, it's it's interesting. There's so much in what you said. First of all, I want to circle back to the fact that I think that people that struggle with this the most, and it's so paradoxical, are the people who are literally the prettiest, the people who get the most attention.

Colette Fehr:

Are you saying I'm ugly. That is,

Unknown:

I'm not

Colette Fehr:

validation, Laura. I'm

Laura Bowman:

just saying that. I think that when your whole identity, when you're young, from a very young age, is how pretty you are, how like, Oh, she's exceptionally pretty, then you become so self conscious of it that there's a fixation on, like, keeping your advantage in the world. I mean, these are conversations I've had with women where it's like they're them. Losing their looks is terrifying, because it's like, who am I without this?

Colette Fehr:

Well, I think that's the key, if that's the primary source. I mean, I think there are people who are beautiful and that's not their only source. So I think it really depends. But I think that you're right, that when we hit midlife, and we're looking at these numbers, I mean, the other thing I wanted to mention, I know I'm bouncing all over the place. This topic excites me so much, speaking to what you're talking about, Laura, research shows that body dissatisfaction, no surprise, peaks at midlife, especially during perimenopause and menopause. So whether you're someone who's always had an identity through beauty, or you're somebody who has never felt super attractive, let's just say I think regardless of where you are on the spectrum, you're going to hit a little bit of a wall to some degree, because things are changing. There's a loss of collagen in the skin. There's fat redistribution. There are wrinkles your face drops, or at least if it hasn't yet, it will take it for me and my little burgeoning gels. It is that moment where you look in the mirror, what we're calling the midlife mirror, and you go, Oh, wait, who's that old lady? Oh, shit, that's me. And you're like, who I still feel 25 inside of myself. So when I sometimes see the crepey skin, or how, like, you know, the deep crevices, the gels, the side view of myself, where I look like somebody's like, cute grandma. It's jarring. It's humbling to say, wow, like I am in even though I'm grateful to be alive and aging is a privilege. It's hard.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And I've had a couple of these moments. Myself where I'm just like, shit, like, like, time is like, passing through me, like, and I just do not look the same. But to that point, I What do I was saying about pretty people suffering a lot? It's like, when I was 16, I was not like, I was not hot, like, I was never like, the hot girl just wasn't, like, I was like, overweight when I was like, a teenager, and I think I started to get, like, attractive in my mid 20s, and it kind of like snuck up on me where, I mean, like, I was the girl that would, like, take a size 10 into the dressing room and then, like, be like, I think then realize that I had to get a size four. Like, that's I was so disconnected to, like, how I had, like, transformed. And I, it served me, because, for some reason, I never attached to my looks. Like, I just didn't blend with my looks, in a way. And I, I just never thought that that was the best thing about me. I never thought, like, this is my own experience, like, I didn't get hit on a lot, like I just, it was I became friends with people, and then they would decide they liked me or I liked them. But it was never like, I never got like, chased by men in the way I see my daughter get chased by men, right? So I separated from it somehow. And I didn't like, really, I didn't even realize that I had gotten, like, semi attractive until I was, like, in my mid 30s, and, like, I remember one person going, what's it like to be pretty? And I was like, Who are they talking about? Like, who are they talking about? But I'm grateful that that was my experience, because I've watched people around me in my mother and my daughter both suffer so much more with this, and they've had were so much more traditionally, like, attractive in their days to men. And I just was like, God, I somehow this, like, missed me a little bit, not, not that I don't suffer with, like, watching myself degrade a little bit and go shit, like, where's this headed? But I don't suffer like, I've watched like my mom suffer. My mom got a tummy tuck at age 75 and we still routinely talk to her about, she talks all the time about getting a breast reduction.

Colette Fehr:

Yes, the ideation is still there, even though the phase of life where it matters has shifted. It's in here.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, I can't imagine being fixated on that at that age. Me,

Colette Fehr:

neither, but I think lots of people are, and it's interesting listening to you, because I had a similar trajectory, in a way, maybe a little bit earlier, when I feel like I became or I glowed up, but I had the opposite reaction to it. I grew up in this environment where my perception was I was very ugly duckling during the middle school time, like really not attractive. Everything was going wrong all at once, and I went through puberty very early. I also didn't look like most of my close friends and I perceived everyone around me in my little sheltered environment to be rail thin, blonde and beautiful in a very traditionally American, almost generic sort of way, right, like blue eyes, little features, very, very thin I had, like, big features and big boobs and hips and also a big personality to go with it. And so I was very much the ugly duckling, and I felt I wanted what they had. I wanted entree to that sort of, I mean, I don't at all now, but as a young person, it was othering for me. So I felt that when I got attractive and I noticed men responding to me as if I was attractive, I was like, thrilled, and I really leaned into it. It was like coming down on Christmas morning and seeing every toy you ever wanted under the tree, and I got really preoccupied with it. And I think there were years in my life, when I was young, when it was a sport for me to find the hardest to conquer man and like, use my charisma and looks to like, rope him in. Now, in the end, I learned, not quickly enough, but rather quickly, fortunately, years ago, that that was a thankless task, because then you end up with this emotionally unavailable douche bag who makes your life hell. But when you have a younger part of self running the show, that's what happens. So it's been a journey for me, of like wanting to be considered conventionally attractive so much and feeling left out, then feeling like I had a phase of life where people found me conventionally attractive and realizing interestingly that it was relatively empty and didn't bring me any joy or happiness. And cycling. Out of that, back into Okay, I want to look good, but I want to look good, primarily for me. If I feel like I look good, then I feel more confident, then I wake up with a pep in my step. I want to look nice in my outfit and feel like I'm going into the world, but it has nothing to do with men anymore. I'm really like, dressing for me. I'm doing whatever I'm doing, which is just Botox and even that, I'm phasing out of now, not getting rid of altogether, but phasing out of for me and how I feel inside, and realizing that, if my validation comes from others, I'm always hitched to someone else's I love, and I don't want to be in that position.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, I cosign everything you said. I just can't be on that journey that I watch other women be on. First of all, I'm, like, a scared little baby, so I can't get Botox. Like, I can't I have a hard time getting my eyebrows waxed. This is, like,

Colette Fehr:

I don't even get my eyebrows waxed. I, like, hate it and

Laura Bowman:

I but I do it because I like, they get look messy every once in a while. But I I can't voluntarily get a surgery. Like, I'm not built that way, like I'm gonna have to be bleeding out to be like, going in for surgery.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, and listen, no, I'm with you on the surgery thing. I've been doing Botox since my mid 30s. My dad's a dermatologist, as a lot of you guys know. So for me, I was able to get it free. And I have the kind of face. I have a huge forehead, and I hold wrinkles in the same pattern tends to be genetic as my father. Like when I look at my father's face, he's about to turn 80, and obviously hasn't been doing stuff. I can see exactly how my wrinkles want to manifest. So I don't really get elevens. I don't really get super jolly, but I get a lot of crow's feet, and my forehead will get deep, deep, deep creases when I go completely Botox free. However, I've started dialing it back, only getting Botox once or twice a year, getting a lesser amount. And so you can see my forehead moves, and there are wrinkles where I'm trying to get to the place of I'm not trying to look 40 I'm about to be 52 I'm trying to look 52 but good for 52

Laura Bowman:

edge off, yeah, that's always been my thing is, like, I just want to look good for my age. I want to look put together. I want to look good in my clothes. I want to feel healthy in my body. Like, that's what I care about most. I do feel like I'm in the Waning Phases of, like, youth, and I feel very aware of that. And so I have a little like script in my head of, like, play it up, like, look as good as you can, because while it lasts like, so that's there, but I don't have any desire to look like my daughter's age. I think that's where women start to go really wrong, is where they're clinging to youthfulness. In a really unrealistic way. I

Colette Fehr:

agree, and listen, no shame here. Whatever your take is on these things, we are not saying it's bad to do procedures. I am a big believer in whatever makes you feel good about you is what you should do. I think that's very different for everyone, and I think it's important to say that definitively. I also think what we're trying to do here, as we define toxic vanity, is first, let's acknowledge also explicitly that it is normal and healthy to be vain. That's not narcissism. It's actually a part of healthy development, right? It's even mentioned in psychological stages of growth. Generativity is that you want to look your best and be your best. So it's healthy to say, hey, I want to feel good. I want to look in the mirror and feel mostly good. We all have those humbling moments when we're not thrilled, but vanity becomes toxic when it's a mask for deeper shame or disconnection, and when your entire source of self worth is coming from other people and other sources, we're not saying never care. There are people out there. I mean, I think I told you about, I might even talked about on the podcast that I once went to this dinner with a bunch of women, and I said how freeing I found it to be that men were no longer looking at me like it just feels like that whole phase is over. And in fact, if a man is sort of flirting with me, I'm shocked, you know, but I don't really care. But other women had very different experiences, and said they felt a lot of grief and loss, and I want to really honor that, because I get it, and I think there was a phase in life where I might have felt that too. There's a variety of reasons I don't we want to get to the place, though, where we can appropriately acknowledge and feel the feelings that come with the phase of life. I mean, I'm already through menopause, like reproductively, not. No man is supposed to really want to look at me. It's not really the natural I mean, I'm just being honest. If you look at it scientifically, your daughter and my daughters, they're fertile murders. They are in the height of reproductivity. So in a way, I can't bash these men that I was bashing who are 52 and like trying to hand out my daughter where I'm like, ew, scumbag. Get away. She will never look at you, yeah, like you're almost like, feel like a pedophile. To me, they are doing what their bodies are wiring them to do, for sure. So we've just gotta realize that there probably is going to be some mourning and loss. And then also get back to how do we accept find our middle ground, whether it's getting Botox, getting a number of procedures, but feel good about ourselves where it's not all dependent on looks, because you know what's one thing is for sure, unless you're Christy Brinkley, you're probably not like so

Laura Bowman:

bizarre at 80. Yeah, I mean, but, but here's like, going back to the toxic piece. It's like the where I find it so sad is, like the preoccupation. It's that, yeah, I can't go out because I don't like the way I look in my clothes, or I don't feel I don't feel good, so I can't participate in life, which becomes, like, a really negative cycle. I mean, I think it goes back to your point about, like, your self esteem at this point and your validations coming from, like, really unique places that you've generated on your own. Yes, and this is a place that tends to stagnate for women at this phase. They they've pressed the same buttons over and over, and those buttons, like, don't work anymore, yes. And it's like, you've gotta, like, start cultivating some new ones. And there is like, a period of, like, grief and like, who am I? What am I here for? What do I do now? But I just to this point, I remember reading some article, and it just hit me, like, yes, like, this is it. And I had peace after this, in some regards where the author was writing about how this woman was, like, older, and, like, I guess she was, like, very outwardly aged, but like, she just had, like, fire behind her eyes, yeah, and she was so alive. And that, like, this woman was so captivating because of her aliveness, and I thought, That's it. That's it. You just have to stay engaged in the flow of life, and that is your eternal youth, right there.

Colette Fehr:

I could not agree more. Beautifully said, What makes you the sexiest and the most attractive is your life force. Yes, really, being the VIM that I always talk about, right, being exuberant and engaged in life and alive, someone who laughs, who knows who she is, who walks into the room and owns her power, I do think that's the secret sauce, and yet I also understand why it is hard for people to feel that way. And I want to throw one more piece into why it's hard. I was having dinner with a friend the other night, and I want to give her credit that it was her idea that we do this topic, and I thought it was brilliant. In fact, I could talk about this all day, because it's so huge for women. But she brought up a really good point that for her, she also went through like an ugly duckling stage that she and I talked about a lot, and how that landed for her in terms of her trajectory, but that a big part of it for her was that people her parents, were very attractive, and her parents placed a great premium on attractiveness. So how you grow up is going to be a big deal, too, if you had the kind of Mom, let's say, who was always worried about your looks, that may have created some preoccupation, or a father that you saw only value. I mean, my dad loves like attractive women, maybe like nobody else. It depends how it might land for you. But one thing I will say is that I was never made to feel different in my parents eyes. No matter how I looked, I never felt like there was a preoccupation from my parents with my looks, and I think that helped me personally, but that's a real part of this for a lot of people, how you were conditioned early on to see the importance of looks? Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

I was conditioned, alright. I mean, my mother and grandmother were just like, kind of like, if you were like, if you weren't pretty, you didn't have power. And I, I think that I did. I felt like I didn't have power for a while.

Colette Fehr:

Well, and let's face it, Laura, for women, historically, it's been that pretty is power. And it used to be that was woman's only power was being beautiful.

Laura Bowman:

The funniest thing is, like, my daughter just got this restaurant job where she was like, hired as, like, a food runner at like, this big restaurant where, like, you can make a lot of money, and the guy said to her, I don't need you on in my kitchen. I need you on my floor. And they, like, promoted her in one day to a server, like, I. Jumping over everybody else who'd been like is waiting in line to be a server at this restaurant. And they, they, she has a freaking target on her back, but she just got like, a promotion because he needs her out there on the floor.

Colette Fehr:

Yep. And you know, what will be interesting to see is when you move through life like that, then when that's gone, there better be other stuff to fill in the gap. I've said to my daughters, I mean, I have two daughters who are, one's about to be 22 and the other's 24 and to me, I know we're moms and we're biased, but I do think my daughters are beautiful by objective standards, and they're certainly much more beautiful than I in a much more classically beautiful sense. And I say that with no envy. I'm like, psyched for them on the one hand, and I've said to them, you know, do you know? Are you aware of how life shifts and opens for you being beautiful. And, you know, they have some degree of awareness, I think, in terms of their responsiveness of men, women, jobs, whatever. But interestingly, and we're dealing with this too as women at midlife, they are so screwed by social media and this bigger comparative lens we now have where we're comparing ourselves to the world that even one of my daughters said, you know, I used to think I was pretty but then, and this is not a girl with a confidence problem, okay, she said, but then I look on social media, and there's so many girls who just look like super models, she goes, I realize I'm just sort of average. This is the distortion that social media is giving us, not to mention that images are filtered. We at midlife are looking at some of these women. Some women look amazing, whether they're surgically enhanced or not. They haven't turned their faces into like duck face Thanksgiving Day Parade balloons, and they look amazing. And it's hard not to look at that and go, Oh, my God, I don't look like that. That's a hard part of this.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, no, it is hard. It is hard. And not everybody ages the same. And I think so much of it is like, how, how I want to say easy your life is like some people have been through such tremendous traumas and terrible stress, yes, and it's like it just ages you rapidly. And so it's like, it's not fair to compare your story against other people's like, we don't know what people have been

Colette Fehr:

through or no. And genetics plays a huge role in how you age. You know, huge role. So I want to give a couple of tips before we sign off. And remember, you guys join the chat. Let's keep this conversation going. This is such an important topic. Go to insights from the couch.org. It's totally free our online community. Leave us a message. Tell us what you think. Let's keep this going after the episode. And here are a couple tips on how to deal with this, because we're all struggling with it. First of all, practicing body neutrality. So if you can't get behind what you see in the mirror and like loving it, start with acceptance. Okay, this is my body. This is how I look. This is what is and what can I be grateful for about the fact that I'm alive the way my body supports me? My unique value propositions? Maybe you don't have like you don't love your forehead, like I don't love my forehead, but I love my lips, although, on this quick note, I did notice I used to always be like, Oh, I'm so lucky. I don't have those little ridges, and I smoke for years. And then the other day, I saw in the mirror I do, my lips getting all like old womany. And I was like, Oh,

Unknown:

my practice

Colette Fehr:

body neutrality. I say, okay, my lips are aging like I'm going to be 52 on post menopausal. Thank you to my body, my skin, my lips, for keeping me alive and for playing a vital role in my health. So we're trying to practice that, and then also mindfulness. Instead of what do I look like? How do I feel in my body today? And instead of a lot of time in the mirror or a lot of time on social media and preoccupation starting to go, Okay, what am I proud of? What do I feel good about? And making this a more internal proposition,

Laura Bowman:

yeah, and I just want to say, like, when I, when I, like, had, like, a health scare. I think I remember telling you this, I suddenly had such a sharp perspective change, and was like, Oh my God. Like, why am I hard on this body? Like, thank fucking god that this like, and I just look like, I loved the whole thing. I was like, I'll take it just like, I'll keep it like, it's, it's perfect. I mean, it's just like, you need a little perspective shift sometimes to be like, What am I complaining about? I

Colette Fehr:

agree. I think anyone who's gone through cancer or. Missing, life threatening, all of a sudden, what's really important shifts powerfully. And we don't want to have to rely on something horrible like that to give us the shift if possible. And I just want to say one more quick part is that, you know, as therapists, we're big on parts work, but to get curious and have a better relationship with yourself around this the part of you that's vain, and we all have one start to get curious about what is this part that is so worried about how I look? What is it hoping to do for me? Yeah, what is it fear will happen if I don't look good? And that's a place that's that self connected communication, and that's the place of okay, even if it's hard to accept I'm aging, there's a part of me that's really worried about this for some reason, and maybe we can reassure that part that you have value and worth without perfect looks at every age, if we're in communication,

Laura Bowman:

yeah, I love that. And finally, let's just wrap this up with focus on your life force. You can not, like, be joyful and alive and hate yourself. You know, I tell my mom all the time I'm like, just go to Italy and wear a moo, moo. Oh my god, Sign me up. Spend the money you would do and like, just go to Italy and like, enjoy the sensual quality of life. So like, focus on life force and you

Colette Fehr:

and it'll help. I agree. I agree. Oh my god, what a beautiful way to end it. When you said, go to Italy and wear a moo moo, I'm like, already on the plane. When I'm 78

Laura Bowman:

I'm gonna be in a moo moo in Italy. I promise I will not be worried about my body.

Colette Fehr:

I'm not waiting till 78 I'm going to Costa, yeah, drinking wine, yes, stuffing our faces. Okay, I can't wait. So you guys, thank you so much for listening. And again, join the chat our online community, the free resource to keep these conversations going. And as always, we hope you got some insights from our couch, and we'll see you next time.

Laura Bowman:

All right, bye, guys. You