Insights from the Couch - Real Talk for Women at Midlife

Ep.74: The Defining Decade: Parenting Kids in Their 20's With Dr. Meg Jay, PhD

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 6 • Episode 74

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In this episode, we're joined by one of our absolute favorite authors and experts, Dr. Meg Jay, PhD. She's a clinical psychologist and bestselling author of The Defining Decade and The 20-Something Treatment, and she dives deep with us into why our 20s are such a defining time—and how many of the same principles can also empower us in midlife.

We explore identity capital, weak ties, economic uncertainty, and how to better support our 20-something children as they navigate early adulthood. If you're in your 40s or 50s and parenting adult children, or just looking to reimagine your own next chapter, this conversation is packed with validation, insight, and incredibly practical advice. You do not want to miss this one!

 

Episode Highlights:

 [0:40] - Welcoming Dr. Meg Jay and fangirling over The Defining Decade 

[3:36] - Why your 20s are the most uncertain and anxiety-filled decade 

[5:53] - The myth of the carefree 20s and how financial constraints factor in 

[8:17] - The stress of unstructured life after college and the reality of job-hopping 

[10:12] - Identity capital: what it is and why it matters 

[14:57] - Learning from jobs you don't love (hello, Rolling Stone fashion closet!) 

[16:20] - How perfectionism and enabling parenting can keep 20-somethings stuck 

[20:05] - The "redefining decade": applying these principles to midlife 

[21:22] - The power of weak ties and how to actually use them 

[24:25] - Gen Z vs Gen X: similarities, differences, and the impact of social media 

[26:21] - Economic challenges and the nuance of living with your parents 

[30:06] - Launching vs enabling: helping adult children become independent

[33:20] - Teaching resilience: tolerating uncertainty without pathologizing it 

[34:08] - From cooking to job skills: the basics that build real confidence 

[36:18] - Helping young adults recognize and activate their own agency 

[38:50] - Dating intentionally: choosing your partner is choosing your family 

[42:09] - Avoiding emotional entanglement before compatibility is clear 

[44:57] - Trial, error, and the wisdom of approaching dating like job searching

 

 Links & Resources:

 

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Colette Fehr:

Marc, welcome to insights from the couch, where real conversations meet real

Laura Bowman:

life. At midlife, we're Colette and Laura, two therapists and best friends, walking through the journey right alongside you, whether you're feeling stuck, restless or just unsure of what's next. This is a space for honest conversations, messy truths and meaningful change.

Colette Fehr:

And our midlife master class is now open. If you're looking to level up, get into action and make mid life the best season yet. Go to insights from the couch.org and join our wait list. Now let's dive in.

Laura Bowman:

Hi guys, welcome back to insights from the couch. I am so excited today I'm a little bit like of a fan girl, because we have Meg J and she is the author of the defining decade. I don't know if you've heard of the book or if I've given it to you over the years, because Meg, I really do believe I've sold more of your books than anybody else. I doubt I push it on every 20 something client, right? Push it on all of my friends. You should, as she so I have to give you like a proper introduction, and I'm going to just read it verbatim. Meg, J PhD, is a developmental clinical psychologist who specializes in 20 somethings. She is the author of the 20 something treatment, a revolutionary remedy for an uncertain age, the cult classic. It definitely is the defining decade why your 20s matter and how to make the most of them now and super normal, which I also loved, the secret world of the family. Hero, her books have been translated into more than a dozen languages. Her work appears in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, NPR, BBC, and maybe most important for her audience, Tiktok, a recent New York Times profile called Jay that Dr J the patron saint of striving youth, which I think is so true, and her TED Talk, why 30 is not the new 20 is among the most watched to date. Dr J earned a doctorate in clinical psychology and Gender Studies from the University of California, Berkeley. She's on the faculty of the University of Virginia and maintains a private practice in Charlottesville, Mic drop. I'm a little jealous. I like want your career a little bit, but

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

I want your podcast good for you for getting this together, and thank you for having me.

Colette Fehr:

Thank you. We're so impressed by you and your work, and really just have a million things we want to ask you, but thank you so much for being here

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

My pleasure. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Laura Bowman:

I mean, our audience is mainly comprised of, you know, a lot of middle aged women for mid 40s to mid 50s. A lot of these women are parenting 20 somethings. So I think all of this is really just so front of mind for all of us. I know it is. For me, I have a 23 year old. Colette has daughters in her 22

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

and 21 all right, okay, yeah, my people still

Laura Bowman:

like, let's just start with this. Yes, yeah. We are your people like, let's just start with this idea that, because I, you know, I the 20s were so like, rough for me in terms of making choices and work and all of that. Like, why? The way you put it is, like, the 20s matter. Why do the 20s matter?

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

Well, I love it, Laura, that you started by saying my 20s were really rough because then it'll just be so much easier to talk to you. Where I really struggle is when people are like, my 20s are so amazing. What is the problem? Because I feel like it's been a long time

Colette Fehr:

since that was me. I hate to throw a glitch. Good.

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

I have the two into the spectrum, all right, based on the ages of your kids, y'all are Gen Xers, right? Gen Xers.

Unknown:

I'm 52 I'll be 52 two weeks, and I'm 48

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

Okay, so why are the 20s so difficult? In a nutshell, they're the most uncertain decade of life, and the brain hates uncertainty, so it's really the only decade of life if your life goes even remotely to plan where you'll wake up in the morning and you won't know where you'll work in five years, or who you who you'll love, or who your friend friends will be, or whether you can pay your bills, or whether you'll be happy, or what city you're going to live in. It is the only time of life where all of that is up in the air at the same time, the brain doesn't like that. It interprets uncertainty as danger. It's experienced in the body as anxiety, distress, stress, depression, depending on sort of your personal take on uncertainty, and it's just really hard not to have. Those things. And I think sometimes older adults idealize the 20s and say, like, Well, what do 20 somethings have to be so stressed out about? They don't have partners, they don't have kids, they don't have mortgages, they don't have big jobs yet. But I think we forget how stressful it is not to have those things and not to know if you're ever going to have those things. So there's just really a lot going on, which makes it a difficult time, but also very defining time, and just a great time to work with people, because you get to get in front of all these big decisions that they're making.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, I totally agree. And like, just that notion that the 20s should be so carefree that you should just, like, really go enjoy yourself. I mean, that message was very unsettling for me in my 20s. I couldn't handle that like I wanted a lot of certainty, right? It's not help, particularly helpful, no?

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

And also, you know, I guess, what comes to mind when people say that is, I'm thinking on what paycheck, you know, with with what friends? I mean, it's, it's, it's not. I mean, yes, in a way, I was more able to leave town as a 20 something than I, you know, maybe was in my 30s and 40s when I had gone, but I didn't have any money, and my friends were working. And so, you know, there are some ways you can be more carefree in your 20s than maybe you can be in your 30s and 40s, but it's at least as stressful, just because it's hard to be carefree when you're wondering, is life ever going to work out for me? It's a lot easier to enjoy yourself when you know like life did work out for me, and now I can enjoy my weekends. But that's not where I think most 20 somethings are

Colette Fehr:

no and what you describe Meg is exactly what I see with my daughters, where, as a mom, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, everything's gonna be fine. You know, it's okay that you don't know this or that. And they are so incredibly stressed. One of my daughters doesn't even want to talk to me about her career, she's so avoidant about it, because it provokes so much anxiety. And with the wisdom of age and retrospect, you think it's okay to not know, you'll figure it out. And you know, I didn't figure out my career as a therapist till my 30s, but I see them going through exactly what you're describing so much uncertainty. And of course, for today's generation, there's much more economic uncertainty. And I think for me, when I say my 20s were great, it's because of the exact factors you described. I happened to have a lot of certainty. I was financially secure. I got married very young, so everything felt very settled for me. Now, of course, it all blew up with spectacular fashion when I was 31 so my 30s when some people might get more settled. You know, my 30s were my decade of uncertainty, because my life just didn't go maybe according to the plan. But that is why I say my 20s were great, and it's not the case for most people. There's also no plan. Like, for years, you're in school and you know what the next thing is, and now it's like, how do I even make sense and create some structure and, like, a scaffolding for my life?

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

Yeah, that's, that's one of the things that I, you know, hear the most from, well, it's funny, because you hear it from high schoolers to college. I work a lot with college students, and they go, Oh my gosh, I did so much better in high school. It was so much more structured. And I say, Well, wait till you graduate from college, because there's no structure. I mean, you know, so that it is so hard. And I think, you know, some stats for you to kind of quantify it a little bit, that on average, young adults have nine different jobs between the ages of 20 and 35 so it's not even like, oh, well, if I go get this job, then then, you know, it might structure a year or two, but then you're just going to be out looking for the next thing and the next pivot And the next turn, and that's just modern adulthood. So I think it's something to kind of get used to, and then to really feel like you've got the skills and the competencies and the confidence that you're you're the certainty that you feel sure of yourself, to pivot from thing to thing, or to find people, to make new friends in a new town, to choose a better partner next time like that. That's really where the certainty comes from.

Colette Fehr:

I can't believe it's nine jobs. In what span of time can you say that one more 20,

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

from 20 to 35 an average of nine jobs. Actually, I've said that on so many podcasts, I finally stopped and counted mine up. I had nine. Did you really? Yeah? I did, yeah. On the other hand, the ups, the upside of that is, you know, a lot of 22 year olds are extremely stressed about the next job that they take. And I tell them, take the job where you'll learn them. Most you'll gain the most identity capital. But this is not the last job you're going to choose, so just make the best choice you can and know that it's going to last about a year or two, and then you're going to be making it again.

Laura Bowman:

Will you tell our listeners about the idea of identity capital and why it matters, what it is and why it matters?

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

Yeah, so identity capital is sort of a clunky term, but it's really just about our collection of personal assets. So like, what do we have going for ourselves? So your collection would be different than my collection. You know, when you read off my bio, of course, that's my identity capital at 50. You know is I had these degrees and I've written these books and I've had these jobs, and so when you're 22 or 23 it's I went to this high school, or I went to this college, or I have these talents, or I majored in this or I've had this starter job. And I think just for 20 somethings to know their job as a 20 something is just to go out there and earn as much identity capital as they can just invest in themselves, add to their collection of personal assets. And there's so much you can sort of do with that in your 30s and beyond, but you really want to be racking it up in your 20s, which is kind of nice, because it's not like, Oh, this is one thing that I'm choosing, and then that's me forever. It's just, I'm gonna collect personal assets. I'm gonna invest in myself, myself, instead of wasting my time. And that will pay off across the decades.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, like skill building. You talk about how you worked for Outward Bound as, like, for how many years, several years. And that was, became, like the thing that got you into grad

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

right? And when people hear me talk about identity capital, some, yeah, sometimes they think, oh, like, oh, I have to have a briefcase and a boring job that I hate, not necessarily. I after college, you know, was a bit burnt out on education, but knew I needed to go to grad school. Thought I would do something in between, somehow I was smart enough to know that it should be something that's probably interesting or sound good when I went to re enter and Outward Bound, did that. It was great practice for leadership and self sufficiency special populations. It sounded cool when I went back to interview for grad school, so it was better for me than waiting tables or whatever the case may be. But you know it's we know that your learning curve in your 20s is what predicts your earning curve in your 30s and beyond your you're never or you're probably not going to have your highest paying job in your 20s, but all that learning that you're doing is what's going to lead to your earning later. And it's not just money, also kind of earning agency and flexibility and kind of the power to direct your own career.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, and you're having experiences through these jobs, even if they don't turn out to be the exact career path. There's so much learning about who you are, what you like, what you don't like, what you want more of. I mean, the job that was the coolest I ever had. I started counting in my head. I had a bunch of jobs too, and I actually stopped working for a while, having kids. I had kids in my 20s, and I still had a bunch of jobs. So you're right, when you really think it through, there's a lot more of them there. But I remember, I was an intern for the the fashion editor at Rolling Stone magazine. Oh, and on paper, it was this job. Yeah, yeah. And right, everybody, it was the job for years. Obviously, I don't have it on my resume anymore at 52 years old, this summer internship we did at 21 but for years it was on there. It was the thing everybody asked me about. Everybody wanted to know, you know what it was like, and I had a real life devil wear Prada experience, because the editor was kind of a monster, of course, yes, but it was a terrible, actual job, like, I was miserable every day. I was locked in a closet. You know, I'd get Brad Pitt's clothes back from a photo shoot smelling like sweat, and it was my job to catalog that they came in, send them out to be dry cleaned, and then, like, send it back to Dolce Gabbana. And you know, I'm a huge extrovert, so being in a closet all day was really hard on me when the people were not very nice, you know, if I came out, they were like, What are you doing out here? Get back in the fashion closet where you belong. And it helped me realize, you know what? I really don't want to work. I did end up having another job, working for Calvin Klein, but it was part of realizing that I actually didn't want to work in the fashion industry. So it really it defines you, yeah, yeah, by what you don't like as much as what you do like. Many

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

20 somethings have to go through that. I mean, in a way. I went through that with Outward Bound of that was a really cool, fun job, until five years later, I have been living out of a car or a tent, and none of my peers have ambitions to go get a PhD, and I'm looking around going, what the heck am I doing? And actually just had a was on a thing the other day with a 20 something influencer, and you know, she quit her very good day job to be a social media influencer, and six months in, she's like, holy cow, like that sounded really fun, but, you know, you got to be careful turning your hobby into a job, but you can't learn that unless you turn your hobby into a job,

Laura Bowman:

but the upshot is that like to have as many experiences that help you sort of refine and iterate where you want to be, right? And that really like having more experiences, rather than less is probably a great idea, and that's where I see, I don't know if you see this a lot, but like, 20 somethings coming in and being really stuck, or wanting to make perfect decisions, or not knowing how to get started, or even being, like, enabled by parents to where they really don't have to do much, right, and so they're waiting for this, like, perfect next move. Exactly.

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

I had somebody just email me the other day and was like, Oh my gosh, I have a degree in X, Y or Z, and maybe I want to do A, B or C. What should I do? Pick one. Start with something, you know, and because then you you know, start for a year, and then you find out of, oh, I'm an extrovert. I need to get out of the closet, or, Oh, this looked fun, but it isn't fun. Or, you know, whatever it is, but that's how you find out. And I think helping, I think sometimes that non job statistic can be helpful, because then 20 somethings can really make concrete that there it's not a mistake to do more than one thing and to try out different things, and that that's just really the norm. That's how people ultimately sort of get, you know, I would love to see people getting to buy between 30 and 35 feeling like, All right, I've got it. I've found my thing. Or, you know, maybe I've even found my person. I've found my town like, if you're getting there between 30 to 35 You're doing great. And so I would sort of imagine years before that is when you're sort of learning what, what is getting you there, what is that?

Colette Fehr:

That's such an important framework. Because I think people don't feel the permission. I think they do feel the pressure to I have to know what I want to do. And there are those few people who grew up, you know, I always wanted to be a doctor, and I'm on the pathway since I'm five years old, but most people don't, and a lot of people, you're not going to know what you want to do with your life until you try things. Actually. Having this conversation makes me wish I'd tried even more things, because there are things that I'm now trying in my 50s that I'm discovering I really enjoy as I'm kind of going through like a midlife reinvention in certain ways that and it's fine. It's happening when it happened, but if I had tried more things, I might have discovered some of this earlier in life. But I think I was so set on like, Okay, what's my path, what's my thing? And some people don't have one thing, one burning talent or one burning mission. There's so many different things they could do. And I just think it's, it's even harder than ever to make it economically. So if you could look at your 20s as like an Incubus for let me just experiment and learn who I am and play and have some fun and collect data and collect experiences, then you'll build that identity capital, and who knows what you might discover. Well,

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

I'm actually going to come back to something you just said about midlife in your 50s, because I'm there myself, and I'm actually an empty nester for the first time as of two weeks ago. And you know, I have not welcomed, oh, thank you. I have so much space in my life or in my brain since I went to grad school in 1997 so, and I was actually thinking, Colette, there are definitely some things that I didn't do or didn't get to, or didn't have enough time to do in my 20s, and then in grad school, and then kids and my career and all that. And I was saying, Well, you know what? This is so great because now I have something to do, like something new to do in my 50s. I'm really excited about trying some, I mean, related, but kind of different avenues, and so I'm actually feeling a bit relieved that there were things left undone. It's a great

Laura Bowman:

way that's so funny that you say that because, like, I heard you on mal Robin say that the book The defining decade could really. Really be called the redefining

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

decade. That's what someone told me,

Laura Bowman:

Oh my God. I say it all the time, because what we have is like, especially if you have women who have sort of foreclosed on their their work or their dreams to raise kids, that the same principles that can activate a 20 something can activate a 40 or 50 something

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

absolutely. So it is a cool tool to use. It comes somebody told me that, you know, you need to do a 50 something version of that, and call it the redefining decade. And maybe I love it, but I have to get my mind first and make sure I know what I'm doing. But, but, you know, it is. It actually one of my favorite comments people ever made about the book. It was a friend of mine who went to her this would have been like her 20th college reunion, and she saw a friend, and he said, I just read the most helpful book. It has really helped me turn my life around so he would have been 41 ish. He said it was the defining decade. He said it's not for it. You know, I'm not a 20 something. But all the principles in terms of, like, just focus on, get some identity capital, use your weak ties. Tap into, like, feel that urgency around time, that it's really all the same. Wait.

Colette Fehr:

Can I just ask the weak ties? Marc, can you elaborate on that?

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

Yeah? Weak ties. So I know my audience when I wrote The defining decade, the first two chapters after the intro are identity capital and weak ties. Because I felt like, all right, if a 25 year old quits reading 30 pages in, I just at least want them to get that then they could, like, throw it in the trash, although the although the second part is about love. So I knew they were going to hang around for that. So I was kind of like just strategically distributing the material across the 200 pages. But the strength of weak ties is all about the power of people that you don't know well. So our strong ties are our best friends and family, and we talk to them all the time, and we probably they know us. We know them. We already know everything they think. We already kind of have the wisdom they have to share our weak ties. Are everyone we've ever met and aren't you know in constant contact with and everyone they've ever met, and we aren't in constant contact with. And anytime you want something new, I don't care if it's a new apartment or a new person to date or a new job, a new idea. It's going to come from a weak tie. So I think whether you're a 20 something or a 50 something, it's really thinking about who is a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend that I that might be able to talk to me about XYZ. And so it's really a 20 something the other day said, I'm She say, chasing leads and following advice. And I felt like that's exactly, you know, what she should be doing is using weak ties to, you know, get leads, take advice that all those new things are going to come from outside the inner circle. So the 20 somethings who have the skill, and this literally is a skill to write a compelling professional email to somebody and say, Hey, I'm so and so this is how we're connected. Would it be possible for us to have a phone call or a coffee, you know, they're the ones who are going to get the internship or the job or the apartment, and then by our 50s, we have that skill. We just need to maybe put it back in practice. It's

Colette Fehr:

so true. Okay, I never realized that term, but I definitely found that that's how I got all of my jobs, was by putting myself out there to connect. Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

Colette, you're really excellent at this. I think

Colette Fehr:

I'm willing to do those things naturally, like it goes with my personality, to be willing to write that person I met for two seconds because I was on an elevator with them and I got their card. You know,

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

that's great that. I mean, that's how you got to do it. Yeah, right, right.

Colette Fehr:

So and encouraging young people to do these things, it actually makes me think about something I wanted to ask you, which is, do you see and how do you see the differences for 20 somethings today versus, say, Gen X? We're all around the same age, the three of us, and so are so many of our listeners. Like, what do you see being different for this round of 20 somethings Gen Z. I mean, I

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

think it's, in a way, it's a little bit like the whole male female thing. I think we make there are far more similarities than differences and But although it's like way better headlines to like talk about the differences, but I actually think that most Gen X, Gen X parents can really help their Gen Z kids a lot. Like I had the nine jobs, you know, I didn't, you know, find my person or my thing or my life or my town until between 30 and 35 like, I had to use my weak ties. I had to build my identity capital. Been there, done that. On pretty much everything that's happening now, except for the biggest difference, obviously, is funds and social media. And to me, you know, the data, it's just very unclear. I think it's really about the individual of how they use phones and social media. Is that a good thing? Is that not a good thing in their life? I'm really a person who's focused on time and are using your time well. So for me, I'm really, you know, draw my client's attention to, is your phone a distraction, or is it helping you? You know, I think that's a conversation that I have with every 20 something that I wasn't having, you know, 10 or 15 years ago. Of what's going on with your phone. How much time are you spending on your screen? What are you doing on it? Are you watching porn, or are you connecting with friends? Are you using it to reach out to weak ties, or are you using it to blow six hours of your day and to try to help them think critically about the time piece?

Laura Bowman:

What about the financial piece? I feel like it's it's a little prohibitive for some I mean, the loans that I see people having to take out and work their way out of the the difficulty in like being able to live on your own. I don't know if you see that as as another layer or not.

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

It's definitely one of the hardest parts of being in your 20s. Your 20s are probably going to be the brokest years of your life. So that's hard. It's always been hard. I think it is hard to feel like you're launching your life, or can date or feel like you have something to offer another person when you're still living with your parents, although sometimes it makes good sense. I mean, I would say my take on living with your parents is similar to social media. It's, it's not whether you're doing it, it's how you're doing it. You know, I think there are ways you can live with your parents that are helpful, and then there are ways that are not helpful,

Colette Fehr:

like, what, like, what? I think that's interesting. Yeah.

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

Well, I think, you know, living with your parents, whether this was during the I had the same conversation with people during the pandemic, when a lot of 20 somethings suddenly were living with their parents. But it's still true. Now it's, you know, is your parent more of a coach? Are they more of a concierge? So if you're living with your parent. It's a great time to get a crash course and like, how do I cook? How do I do my taxes? How do I fix a flat tire? How do I mow the lawn? Like your your adult child, if over 18, is living in your house, they should be pulling their percentage of the weight. You know, if they're one of three, they should be doing 33% of the work around the house. I mean, they may or not, may not be able to pay that rent, because the point is, maybe to save money, but they should be doing their percentage of the weight. It should not be that you're the concierge where you're still doing the laundry and the cooking, and, you know, they come home to this like, great house that they don't have to worry about. And it's basically a hotel that is not helpful. I think it's, you know, are you helping your child be more independent or more dependent? And as someone who just sent, you know, I had two kids back to back, so they just went to college one after the other, I totally get it of like, Hey, I'm not needed anymore. Hey, my job that I kind of loved, which was like taking care of my kids, but you can't keep doing that, because it feels good to you. You know that it's, it's, I think we have to sort of step back from those things, even though we may still enjoy them, and let our kids sort of become the adults that that I think we really want them

Colette Fehr:

to be excellent distinction. You know, I've been laughing because I feel like I my parents were concierge parents like my mom just sold house I grew up in, and I'm, like, devastated, because to this day, it's this place I could go retreat and almost regress to childhood. I'm realizing how messed up that was.

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

You know, if it's a visit, okay, but that would be a good reason for you not to live there. I mean, that's the perfect you know, it's like if when you live there, you're a teenager, that could be a fun place to visit, but not a great place to spend your 20s, because then you never really grow up.

Colette Fehr:

So true, so true. And I actually only lived at home for less than a year after college, and then was kind of out the door and on my own,

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

you were not you were stuck in that closet at Rolling Stone.

Laura Bowman:

I love that, yeah. But right now I have my, like, my 23 year old at home. Oh, she's almost 23 and she's like, in an MBA program, but it's like, if, and I'm sure she'd live on her own, but it's like, I'd have to pay for that, right, right? So it's like, either you're here and she works and she doesn't, you know her Master's, so it's like she's functioning as an independent human. I'm not catering to her. She buys her own groceries and stuff. So it functions. Yes, but I think it's hard. I think it's either you, you know, outsource their life somehow.

Colette Fehr:

Well, right? Anna's doing a lot of things. I mean, she's doing the adult things, like, right, and living independently. And it does make so much sense to live at home in a way. You know, I'm having the opposite thing, where my kids are moving so far away. I mean, one's four hours away, the other is moving to Hawaii. And so it's wonderful that I'm seeing them thrive and be independent and live as adults, but just knowing I'm not going to see them and yeah, sure, yeah, at the same time I know they're doing these things we're talking about living their lives, trying things, trying to figure out, and that's something to feel so good about as a mom. So I wonder, what else Meg you think as parents, for so many of our listeners who either have 20 somethings like us or are going too soon, what can we do as parents to really help them launch, rather than enable them to stay stuck or to hinder them through our own psychological needs or anxieties. Because I see so many mothers going, what's my kid? What's my kid's job? Where's my kid going to college? Right? It's sometimes the parents making,

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

yeah, yeah. I had a mom tell me yesterday. Let's see school. Her child's school, college started, and they're, they're a freshman, and she said, yeah, she was very anxious, because she said, socially, he's just not there yet. He hasn't met his people. He's not there yet. I was like, well, he just got there. How could he be there yet? So you don't want him to be there yet. If you told me that, you know, 10 days into college, he'd found his people, I would say he didn't look around and that they're gonna they're gonna come back, they're gonna find me in Student Health in a year and a half, and say, I glommed on to the first friends I found, and then a year later, I realized they weren't for me. So it is really helping. I think parents not panic or pathologist pathologize that uncertainty, that there's like nothing wrong, that your kid, two weeks into college, still doesn't know who their people are. They're not doing anything wrong. You're not doing anything wrong. And if your kid is feeling uneasy or stressed about that doesn't mean they have an anxiety disorder. It just means they're experiencing uncertainty, which is like, Whoa, is this going to work out? Will I have my people? So I do think it's as much as I really focus with 20 somethings on tolerating uncertainty that you're not going to have answers to a lot of these questions for five years. You know, am I going to meet my person? Where am I going to ultimately work? That's a lot of uncertainty to tolerate. It's a lot for parents also. But I think role modeling confidence that not reassurance, like, Oh, it's fine, it's you'll get it, but just real confidence of, hey, I've seen you solve this problem before. I think you can do it again. Or let's talk about what you might need to do to make friends at school and problem solve this together. So I think just role modeling confidence and problem solving rather than panicking and pathologizing, that's

Laura Bowman:

what I really love about your work so much, is that you're not afraid to take a couple great positions and, like, give some really practical advice. I mean, I love to hear you talk about, like, okay, you know, like, like, you're gonna find your city and your person maybe between like, 30 and 35 it's so much more reassuring to hear something like that than like the nebulous you'll figure it out. It all works out. It's fine. Like, I love the skills that you kind of feed into the process, and the things to look for, like the loose ties and the identity capital, those are things that we can get skills around. And in your new book, you even talk about, like, learning how to cook, yeah, which is, like, so practical, but so great, so

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

practical. And, yeah, so, I mean, I think the defining decade is the it's the cult classic. I mean, it's the big, the biggie on, like, launching your 20s. But you know, my newest the 20 something treatment is really about managing the uncertainty that comes with everything we've talked about for 10 years, and having that feeling more sure of yourself within I know how to make a friend in a new town, or I know how to cook for myself, which is actually better for your physical and Mental health and your budget and your budget. I know you know how to work. I know how to go to a job every day. That these are all things that may seem really basic and remedial, but if you think about it, most 22 year olds have not done these things before. They haven't had to make friends from scratch in a new town. Um. Mom, you know, maybe, like I mentioned, they've had the first month of college experience, but then it gets bigger. When you move to a new town and you don't even have a hall mate or a roommate,

Colette Fehr:

that is such a big deal. And actually, I just had this conversation with my younger daughter current yesterday, the one who's moving to Hawaii, because she said one of my my concerns is about making friends. And I was so proud of her because she said, I'm going to have to push myself to go out and to make plans with people. That's not really what I want to do with myself. It's not my natural way. But she said, I know I'm going to have to do her yeah,

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

just to realize that that is what it takes to get started. And again, it comes back to use the weak ties. Does she have a friend of a friend of a friend who lives in Maui? Could she start with that, you know, draw on Well, what did I do in college, to meet people? And, okay, I had my roommate that I'd known, but what else did I do? I probably joined a club, or I exercised, or like you know that to help 20 somethings. Know, you probably know something about how to solve these problems, and you know most of them have more skills, more identity capital and more weak ties than they think they do.

Colette Fehr:

So true so and to help them realize that they have more answers than they think they do. Well, yes,

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

and your your daughter's clearly already thinking through them, which I love, but some students will be like, I have no idea how to make a friend at a new town. And I'm like, I that's just can't be true. I bet you have some ideas.

Laura Bowman:

And you had said that, like 20 somethings are among the loneliest group of people, yeah, which is so sad to realize.

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

I mean, it does catch a lot of people by surprise, and I think they, I think we maybe somewhat erroneously put this all on the phones. I mean, I'm no phone evangelist. I mean, phones are obviously a huge issue, but they're not like the explanation for everything. And it really comes back to what we were talking about before, of the uncertainty that, if you think about it, I mean, Colette, you're the exception on this panel of three of that you had your you had gone from a childhood family to your buried family early. These days, that's more uncommon, and so your 20s are sort of the only years where you're between families and you're waking up to some random roommate you may not even really like that much, or that you, you know, just may have chosen. You might be in a new town trying to find friends. You're going through a breakup, you know, you're not connecting with people at work like that, that is lonely. And I think we think of 20 somethings as like, sort of always at a rave, having a great time, but that's really not what it's like. There can be a pretty lonely bunch. I remember during the pandemic that 20 somethings really struggled. And of course, there was all this, you know, whether it was on podcasts or in headlines like, why are they struggling? And I said, Well, let's see. I'm in the pandemic, and I'm waking up in my house with everyone that I love under the same roof, and I'm able to work from home and you know, continue, you know what's meaningful for me, but 20 somethings are sort of stuck in these apartments with random people, or back at home when they didn't mean to be unable to date, et cetera. And so it's it's actually a really lonely time.

Laura Bowman:

I totally agree. I can't let you leave until we talk about the final pillar of the defining decade, which is your last, but not your last, but one of your core pieces of advice in that book, which is, when you're dating, date to pick your family, yeah? So I just want to hear you talk about dating. Yeah.

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

Well, you know, we've all heard, oh, you know, you can't pick your family, but you can pick your friends, and that's true when you're growing up. But then when you're a 20 something, 30 something, and beyond, you do pick your family when you partner with somebody, and you create your own family. And I think that shift toward urgency and intentionality is really important, and that people often aren't making it soon enough in their 20s that they kind of feel like, oh, you know, everybody gets married later now, so I don't need to think about that while I'm dating in college or dating in my 20s, and then suddenly people start to feel like they're running out of time and panic and just pick whoever standing right next to them. So to prevent that, the way I try to have my 20 somethings that I work with, think about dating. It's like jobs. You know, you're going to have nine jobs between the ages of 20 and 35 and hopefully by 35 you're like, Yes, I got it. I found the thing. I'm happy. I'm happy healthy. I have meaning this is right for me, that that's really, I don't know if you're gonna have non relationships, but you're probably gonna have a few, and that to really go about them as intentionally as you would with work, that you make the best choice you. Can, and then you do a gut check six months in, a year in, is this right for me? Is this not right for me? Do I need to change something about the relationship? Do I need to change to a different relationship, with the goal being that, you know, by the time you do make what most people are hoping to sort of find their person and be done with that, that you feel like you've made an intentional, informed, wise decision.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, it's more than just that person. It's you're, you're selecting a whole new family.

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

Yeah, you're, well, the one you create, obviously, the one you kind of marry into or partner with. And you know, sometimes that is just what you were looking for, and sometimes it isn't, you know, we could have a whole show on in laws, but, yeah, you know, it's, it's really about, you know, the family that you're creating actually in the updated version of the defining decade, which came out in 2021 it's the one with the gray cover. There's a new chapter in there called 29 conversations, and it's conversations in theory to have with a potential partner. I would definitely have them with someone before you move in with that person, or before you marry that person. But I would say it's never too early to have that conversation with yourself, because I think you need to think about, like, what are you looking for? Not like, do my partner and I agree? Or will this? Can I shove this, my foot into this glass slipper? Or not as much as, what is it that I think about these 29 conversations? And just to have that in mind, even as you're dating,

Colette Fehr:

I think that's great advice, because the hard thing is, people can get so attached, and once you're so deeply in, it's so hard to extricate yourself, even if something doesn't align with your values. So to be thinking about those questions, having them with yourself, having them with potential partners, so that you're really being intentional about you're building a life with someone. And it really can't all be about the chemistry, because we know that fades. It's not enough.

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

No, it's not enough. And, you know, I think that it is really to emphasize your point. Collect. I think 20 something struggle with like, well, when do I have these conversations? But even if you wait until some of the times I mentioned, of, oh, before you move in together, before you get married, to your point, by then, people already, they already want it to work, and so it doesn't really matter. Like, what answers are they're gonna say, like, right? Well, it's fine that it's, you know, you get sort of entangled, and it's hard to extricate yourself. So it's never too early to be thinking, what am I looking for? Rather than I think people really get their head turned by, like, Who wants me?

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, that reactive place. I have a couple clients there right now, who where it's like the taxi light is on, and they feel like it is time, it is time, and all their friends are getting married and having babies, and even if the relationship isn't perfect, they're going to shove their foot into that glass slipper,

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

tell them to read my book immediately. Because I, you know, I talk really frankly about that, because I think you can in a book in a way that sometimes I mean, and I'm a psychologist, and I do have those conversations with my clients, but I really understand it's hard when you have relationships with people and emotions are sitting in the room. Sometimes it's hard to just really spell it out. So one thing that I was sort of hoping in the defining decade, especially, is that I can sort of spell some things out, that I think it's hard for parents and therapists sometimes to do face to face because they feel like it's going to be hurtful or jarring. And I mean, I don't think the book comes across as hurtful, but it's very direct. And sometimes we can't always be direct like that in a therapy session or in a relationship with our children

Colette Fehr:

so true, or they we just won't be receptive. But direct is good. So I'm glad you're laying all this out there. You know, this is some of the stuff that I wish I had thought about as somebody who got married very young, which, fortunately isn't so common anymore. You know, sometimes that works out great, but there is so much that you don't know about yourself yet. And my understanding of what to look for in a relationship was, like, very basic in terms of, like, economic security and do we like to do the same things? And there's so much more to it than that. And so many people in your 20s, your your relationship experience is so limited. So it's also just like we're talking about with jobs, it's such a great time to get out there and date more and experience different people, because a lot of times, how you learn what works for you and what doesn't is through dabbling and trial and error. Right?

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

Absolutely, and it's doing the same. Same thing with a relationship, you know, I think if you have a job and you know, you don't like it, you start looking for another one. I think sometimes when we have relationships we don't like there's this temptation to just always try to make it work, and this fear of being alone. And so I think especially for 20 something women. And so I think kind of having the courage to approach it with the same respect and dignity that you would give yourself around a job of if I don't like this and it makes me unhappy, I should look for something else.

Laura Bowman:

Beautifully said, I love it. I love it. I love how normalizing and helpful your work as and as you know, I give it to everybody. And so if you're listening and you know, a 20 something Meg's books are amazing, give them as gifts. Give them often. Give them to parents. And I'm personally here for a book on college, how to use college. I can't wait for that, but I hope you write that one, and I hope you write in the redefining decade.

Colette Fehr:

Excellent. I want to redefine

Laura Bowman:

career, but I'm here for

Dr. Meg Jay, PhD:

it. Awesome. Well, it's been lovely. Thank you for having me. I really love what you're doing with your podcast.

Colette Fehr:

Thank you so much. Thanks so much for being here and for all of you listeners, thanks for checking out this episode. We hope you got some great insights from our couch. We'll have all the links to Meg's work, her books and where to find her in the show notes, and we will see you next time. Bye guys. You.