Ep.81: The Essential Guide to Divorce at Midlife with Oona Metz

In this episode of Insights from the Couch, we sit down with licensed therapist, writer, and divorce support group leader Oona Metz to have one of the most honest, grounding, and hope-filled conversations we’ve ever had about divorce—especially at midlife. We talk about why divorce still carries so much stigma, why so many women feel isolated and ashamed, and what actually helps people heal instead of staying stuck.

Together, we explore the emotional reality of divorce, why it can feel like a total identity loss, and how healing doesn’t come from rushing forward—but from understanding the process. Oona shares the framework behind her new book, Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women, and helps normalize the heartbreak, chaos, growth, and transformation that so many women experience but rarely talk about out loud.

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] – Welcome to Insights from the Couch and why this conversation matters so much at midlife
[2:30] – Introducing Oona Metz and the inspiration behind Unhitched
[5:15] – Why divorce still feels shameful—even though it’s so common
[8:00] – Redefining “success” in marriage and letting go of outdated narratives
[12:30] – The emotional tsunami of divorce and why uncertainty is so hard on the nervous system
[15:30] – The five emotional phases of divorce: heartbreak, roller coaster, mending, letting go, and moving on
[20:40] – Why people get stuck after divorce—and what actually helps them heal
[24:30] – Letting go without pretending it was “okay”
[28:00] – Forgiveness, reframed: releasing yourself, not excusing harm
[33:00] – Why distraction and dating too soon can backfire
[37:45] – The power of divorce support groups and not doing this alone
[41:00] – What Oona hopes every woman knows about healing after divorce
[43:00] – How to find Oona, her book, and free divorce resources

Links and Resources:

Oona Metz’s website and free divorce resources: https://www.oonametz.com

Book: Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women by Oona Metz: https://www.amazon.com/Unhitched-Essential-Divorce-Guide-Women/dp/1668075385 

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Transcript

Colette Fehr: 0:44

Marc, welcome to insights from the couch, where real conversations

Laura Bowman: 0:47

meet real life. At midlife, we're Colette and Laura, two therapists and best friends, walking through the journey right alongside you, whether you're feeling stuck, restless or just unsure of what's next. This is a space for honest conversations, messy truths and meaningful change.

Colette Fehr: 1:07

And our midlife master class is now open. If you're looking to level up, get into action and make midlife the best season yet. Go to insights from the couch.org and join our wait list. Now let's dive in. Welcome back to insights from the couch, everyone. We're your hosts here today, me, Colette fair and Laura Bowman licensed therapists, and we have another wonderful licensed therapist joining us today, una Metz and her brand new book that just launched yesterday, unhitched, the essential divorce guide for women. So first of all, welcome una before we get into everything to do with divorce, I can't wait. I want to read your bio, but thank you so much for being here.

Oona Metz: 1:50

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this day for a long time, and I really admire the work that both of you do. So it's a pleasure to

Colette Fehr: 1:59

be here. Thank you, and likewise, likewise. So you do really, really good work, and I want everyone to hear about your specialty here. You're a psychotherapist, writer and speaker specializing in treating women, navigating divorce. You're also the author of your brand new book, as I mentioned, unhitched, the essential divorce guide for women. And we'll be linking to that in the show notes, so you guys can grab your copy. It's available online and in stores everywhere, and just launched yesterday, January 13. And in addition to seeing individual clients, una leads three weekly divorce support groups in her private practice, and has guided hundreds of women through the emotional complexities of divorce. Una is the founder of the beacon group fellowship, a national group therapy training program to train mental health clinicians to lead divorce groups. Una lives near Boston with her partner and a handful of pets. I love that, and her young adult children have all flown the coop, but return home often, just like me and Laura, we're all in that same phase of life, right? That's why we have the time to write

Oona Metz: 3:06

a book. It's because we're not actively parenting. We're still parenting all the time, but in a different way.

Unknown: 3:13

That's like a nice phase, isn't that? Yeah, space, yeah.

Colette Fehr: 3:18

Love it. And not only writing a book, but this is why we have time to be on the podcast, right? So una your book, you know, it's so good, and I couldn't help but thinking as I started it, I wish I had had this book when I got divorced, and in particular, I think for women at midlife, because midlife divorce comes with its own set of complexities, and this is why I think all of you guys listening are going to get so much out of this today. But you mentioned that there hasn't been a therapist led divorce book in more than two decades. This is shocking, right? I couldn't believe that, and so you really trying to, like, fill the gap here. What did you hope to bring to the table with this book? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I first noticed this when I was lead. I've been leading these divorce support groups for women for 15 years, and in the old days, I used to refer a book to them called crazy time. It's my favorite, and it was written in 1992 we love that book, and I read and reread it when I was getting divorced, like my pages are tear stained and have mascara all over them. It's a

Oona Metz: 4:36

great book, and it was written in 1992 and so, you know, as the years went on, I was like, let me see if I can find some updated books. And there are, I mean, let's, let's, I'm not going to say there's not great books out there. There's great books out there. And now there's a whole slew of divorce memoirs, which are really helpful. There's a bunch of books about the financial and legal aspects of divorce. And there's some that are like for men and women, and then there are some that are like for very specific things like infidelity or narcissism. But when I looked at the literature, I was like, there's not a book by a therapist, yeah, about the emotional journey of divorce for women, how crazy is that? And so I finally decided, like, I guess I just have to write it,

Laura Bowman: 5:28

filling a real need in the marketplace. I definitely know that women that pass through my practice really are looking for like a handbook.

Oona Metz: 5:36

So yes, yes, they need it. They need it. They're. Hungry for resources, and I think to not feel alone, right? I think so many women feel isolated, even though so many people are going through a divorce, but they still feel isolated. And I think they often feel like, Are my feelings normal? Like I'm feeling so much? Am I going crazy? No, you're not going crazy, you know, you're just having a lot of feelings, and that is so normal in that process.

Colette Fehr: 6:08

Oh, my God, you're so right. What you're saying, and I wonder you also mentioned, and I've found this too as a woman who's divorced and remarried. I mean, first of all, let me just back up and say that reading what you what you shared about your personal journey that your parents got divorced when you were younger, you grew up going back and forth between houses. I mean, I had the same I never thought I'd end up divorced. As a result, was my fairy tale dream to have the best marriage ever. Yeah. And then, of course, I ended up divorced. Yeah, I got divorced when all my friends were getting married for the first time. I was 31 I grew up in New York, where people get married a little later. This is 30 you know, I got divorced 20 years ago. I didn't know one person going through a divorce. It was so isolating, and I felt really judged and ostracized. As a result. I think even if people don't ostracize you, you feel like you have this big scarlet letter on instead of the A, the big Scarlet D, right? You can feel like a failure. So I'm curious as we dive into this, why do you think divorce is still so stigmatized unfairly? So I'm fairly so. But why is that when divorce is so common?

Oona Metz: 7:22

Yeah, I mean, we we are making progress. I feel like we are making progress, which is good, and I also feel like there is still shame and stigma attached, and I think I don't think that that's going to change when we're still have such an emphasis on marriage being till death. Do you part? You know, I just don't think that that's really a good model. Like, what if we had marriage for as long as it really works for everybody in the family? You know? Because sometimes people are married for 20 years and it works really well for 18 of those, yeah, and then it doesn't work anymore. And that's not a failure. That's if you can say, I was married for 18 years and it worked out well, and then we made a change. You know,

Colette Fehr: 8:18

can you? Can you just say that again? That definition like success. It's a success for as long as it works for every member. And if it say what you said, again, I think that's brilliant.

Oona Metz: 8:29

Oh, thank you.

Colette Fehr: 8:31

No pressure. Una no pressure.

Oona Metz: 8:33

This podcast every day.

Colette Fehr: 8:37

But it's true, this is the working definition that we need. So even if it's not the exact word, say that again.

Oona Metz: 8:43

So so at this we still think of marriage as the success is until death. Do you part? But what if we change that and made success marital? Success is until it's not working anymore for some members of the family, yeah, like, success is stay in it for the longest time you can while it's working, right?

Laura Bowman: 9:10

I think we're in the middle of, like, a cultural shift though, that we're a part of, but we're still very much in the middle of it where marriage is not working as an institution for a lot of people, correct, and it really is running its course, but it's still such a foundational brick of the way people, I don't know, tie their identity to things that I can just see how people are staying in these things that are have long outlived their usefulness. Yeah, yeah. I don't know when it's gonna I don't know when it's gonna I don't know when we're gonna get rid of the stigma, but I too, see men and women feeling very shameful about it, and then also feeling like they're contaminating their friend groups, right? Like it's like a disease that other people in the group are gonna catch, and so it's how are you helping women like through these hurdles. I mean,

Oona Metz: 10:04

I think one of the solutions is exactly what we're doing right now, which is talking about it. I think it's been something that has been, you know, like the old days when you couldn't even say the word cancer. Some people would say the big C, like, it's right, you know, and I think we're getting better about talking about it, and, you know, that's what I want to do in my support groups, that's what I'm trying to do in this book. That's what you're doing with this podcast. Is like, let's talk about it, because, you know, like, as Brene Brown says, you know, we gotta. And shame likes to live in the dark, right? And if we shine light, shame can't, can't thrive with the light, and so we have to keep talking about it. I think that's one thing. I think also really paying attention to language is helpful. I think we're done with like broken family and America failed. I think we're done with that. But like bringing in new language, like we're restructuring a family, how about that? You know, rather than keep the marriage failed, we're restructuring the family. We're getting away from the word custody, because custody has roots in slavery. We don't own children, you know, and now we're talking about parenting time. You know, what's fair parenting time, not what's your custody

Colette Fehr: 11:27

array, right? Right, right? It's so true, even a word like that that you don't think about Yeah, the roots of yeah has this implicit bias and this really like shaming outdated language, right? Right? That isn't appropriate. So we're on the cusp, or we're changing it slowly, and one of the ways we're changing it is by talking about it. And this is why I'm always very to your point. I'm very open as a couples therapist. I talk openly about the fact that I'm divorced. I talk about it to everybody. I refuse to feel ashamed about it. I don't feel ashamed about it. I actually think it's the best thing that ever happened to me, in many ways, as was the marriage, because I have my daughters and I learned valuable lessons. Not that I think you have to be divorced to be a good relationship counselor, but so much of what I learned that helps me as a relationship therapist, came from failure, not to say the marriage failure, but like not knowing how to handle myself in a relationship, not knowing how to cope, finding myself foundering against the rocks, you know, just not knowing what I was doing. And like they say in crazy time, that stage of the phoenix rising from the ashes. It really is a rebirth. So I think particularly for our listeners who are at midlife, you know many of these women, not all, but many who might be contemplating divorce, or have gone through a divorce, or maybe a divorce is on the horizon at midlife, some of these women have been married for decades, right? For a long time, and it's very, very scary, and we don't really know what's on there around the bend. So what do you think, just as we're normalizing this and really talking about it openly, what do you think women underestimate about the emotional arc of the divorce process, or don't understand about it, I think it's

Oona Metz: 13:24

really hard, like so many things, right? It's really hard to know what it's like until you've gone through it. And I think that's why it's so important to find other people who've gone through it. I mean, I think people underestimate how hard it is, but also how transformative it can be, because it can be so heartbreaking and stressful, you know, in the beginning, and it also can be create so much growth and healing and transformation at the end. And it's so hard to know that when you're in the beginning, sages, you know. And you might hear that from people and think, Well, not me, you know, or I don't, I don't know if that's gonna happen, yeah, but, I mean, I've seen it a million times, right? Just people go from their lowest of lows to being so much happier and so much more empowered and learning and growing so much.

Colette Fehr: 14:18

Yeah, it's so true. What makes women, and I want to go through you talk about these five pillars, right? Of like, five phases? Yes, the five phases. So I definitely want to go into that. But let me just ask you, because Laura and I are working with women going through divorce all the time, what do you see as the difference between the people who get stuck where the divorce has happened. It's three years in the rear view mirror, five years, 10 years, and they're still stuck versus those who thrive and move on and have that transformative experience.

Oona Metz: 14:54

Well, I think there are these five phases, and I think if you get stuck in one phase, it can be really hard to get out of that phase, but people need to do the work. I mean, there's grieving, yeah, it's evolved, and I think people really need to have a safe place to do that grieving work, whether it's with a therapist or a support group or clergy member, but I think you know, or friends or your journal or your yoga practice, or whatever it is, I think people really need to do the grieving work, and there are stages to that work,

Laura Bowman: 15:34

yeah, and it's so funny, because people hate to be sad. You know, we talk about this a lot in. Our women's group, and we also talk about it on the podcast, but like, sadness and grief is like an invitation, and you have to kind of go through it. It's the other side that people will try to move on very quickly with, like lists or plans or a new person

Oona Metz: 15:58

distracting themselves.

Colette Fehr: 16:02

So let's dive into these phases and tell us a little bit about them and how to maybe not get stuck there.

Oona Metz: 16:12

So the way that I came up with these phases is that I was as I was writing the book, I thought to myself, gosh, it would be really nice to have a model to present in the book of kind of a path forward. Because I do think that people in the beginning especially, think, Oh, my God, I feel terrible, and I'm always going to feel terrible like, this is the worst thing that could have happened to me. I'm always going to feel this way. It's awful. And so I wanted to offer people some hope that, like, it does get better and real hope, you know, not fake hope, but real hope. And like, what is the path, like, where? Because I think it's helpful to chart your be able to chart yourself on the journey. And so I looked at all the literature, and really, there hasn't been a new kind of model of divorce grief that's been developed. People were really using that old Kubler Ross stage model of grief, which is, you know, that's a very useful model for some people. You know, it was developed in the 70s for grieving when somebody dies, right? And just for people who don't remember, it's that model that begins with denial and goes through anger and then bargaining, sadness and then acceptance, right? And so you know that that has some usefulness to it. But I started to think, well, I don't think that quite fits with divorce grief. And so I began to think about my own journey. And then, like, I've worked with hundreds of women who've gone through divorce, so like, if I were to think about, like, how they did it, what are all the stages that they went through? Because I see women long term, so I see them through all the stages. And so that's how I came up with this model. And the model really begins with heartbreak. And I think it's certainly, it makes sense, right? Of course, if, if the divorce is not your your choice, if you're not initiating it, it's a big heartbreak. But even if you are initiating it, you've had so many heartbreaks along the way until you make that decision, like every time you're not seen, every time they're not heard, every time you're criticized in the marriage, every time your spouse doesn't hold up, kind of with the agreements that you made as A couple, right? It's heartbreak after heartbreak after heartbreak, until you make the decision, right? And that's a really hard stage, and then I think right after heartbreak comes. I what I think is oftentimes the longest save, which is the roller coaster, and that's where you have the roller coaster of emotions. Yeah, you're sad, you're mad, you're relieved, you're angry, you're, you know, you're confused, you're fearful. Sometimes you have all those feelings in a week. Sometimes you have them all in one hour.

Laura Bowman: 19:16

And can that siege last?

Oona Metz: 19:19

It can last a long time. And you know, I think, like, like, the Kubler Ross model people don't, you know, end one stage on a Monday and start the next stage on a Tuesday. Right? You go back and forth. And, you know, you might be in roller coaster for a while, and then think you're leaving a roller coaster, but come back in when something happens, and I think the legal system really exacerbates the roller coaster. Or a

Laura Bowman: 19:48

difficult partner, there's no peace, and you're just constantly thrown back into the dynamics of a marriage,

Oona Metz: 19:56

yep, or really hard co parenting, yep, really make the roller coaster hard. And I think, you know, one of the lovely things that happens in the divorce support group is that we can really talk about the roller coaster of feelings in a really nuanced way, like people can come in and say, I'm so angry at my ex right now, and then I happened to see them at the soccer game, I realized I missed them, yeah, you know, and to hold both of those things at the same time right like you can hold the anger and the missing right at the passing

Colette Fehr: 20:36

time, because that's so true. You often are feeling those two. Two things at the same time, and I'm so glad you said that you can be the divorce seeker and still you're going through heartbreak Absolutely, not just the actual dissolution of the marriage, but the many times your heart was broken along the way, as the relationship couldn't or didn't meet your needs. It is a death. It's a death, and there's a profound impact. And this roller coaster, I love that you named that stage, because that's exactly what it is. Hence the old book crazy time, right? That's really she's speaking to that roller coaster. Your life has imploded. Every day feels different. Everything's changing. You feel all the feelings.

Oona Metz: 21:24

And there's so much uncertainty. Yes, right? There's so much uncertainty. Where am I gonna, you know, am I gonna be able to stay in the house? What's the parenting plan going to be? What's gonna happen with the kids? How much money am I gonna have at the end of this? How much money is my lawyer gonna have

Colette Fehr: 21:42

attended this right and like, Will I ever be happy again? Will I find love? Will I feel normal? Will people judge me? Am I Marc? But I mean, it goes on and on, and we know the brain hates uncertainty even more than grief and sadness.

Laura Bowman: 21:56

Oh, my God, I want the next stage. I want the next Okay, sure.

Oona Metz: 22:01

Science, good, good, good. All right, ready. The next stage, after rollercoa got the roller coaster, the next roller coaster is mending. The way I picture this is like taking a little needle and thread to those little holes in your heart and being able to stitch it up, you know, and mending is really when you begin, when you when you can begin to make a shift from thinking about your ex all the time and thinking about the divorce all the time to start thinking again about you. What you need? What do you need to start to feel better? You know, maybe you need to go back to that yoga class. Maybe you need to, you know, start reading books again. Maybe you need to have a weekly walk with your friend on a Friday morning. Like, what is it that you need to start mending your heart? I like to refer to divorce as being like being in the middle of it as like having the worst part time job that you could possibly have. It's like you've got the worst boss. You have the worst colleagues. They don't pay you. Actually, you have to pay to go to the job, right? There's no days off. And so in the mending stage, you begin to like, you know, your your jobs, kind of slows down and you begin to think about yourself again.

Unknown: 23:24

That's a great way to put it, yeah, yeah,

Colette Fehr: 23:27

stitching the tiny hole in your heart, right? Yeah. Oh, that's so palpable, yeah, so that you can't, you can't avoid that stage if you're gonna progress, like, right?

Oona Metz: 23:38

That's exactly, and that is sometimes where people get stuck as like in that roller coaster, where they then don't go to mending, and they never really mend their heart. So their heart still has all of these holes in it, and it's very hard to move on if you're not, if you're not focusing a little bit more on yourself, if you're focusing too much on your ex? Yeah, that's what I was just gonna ask. Because before we get to the next stage, right, I was gonna say, what is keeping people stuck in roller coaster? You know, a lot of what I see is being stuck in like victim mindset, preoccupied with anger, unreleased anger, toward the ex, preoccupied with the ex period. Yep, you know, anything you would add to that that you see a lot in your groups and your work with women, I think one of the major tasks in mending is refocusing on yourself, and it's also about the next stage. And the next stage is letting go. And as I said, sometimes people need to do the letting go before they do the mending, and sometimes people do the mending and then they can do the letting go. So again, it doesn't, you don't necessarily have to go through these stages exactly in order, but the letting go phase is also incredibly important for grief, right? Because if you hold on, if your focus is always on your ex, we know like that's where your mind is going to go, and that's where your feelings are going to go, and it's going to be really hard to move on.

Laura Bowman: 25:12

I can imagine, though, and I've seen it in my own practice of like situations that feel patently unfair, like you've been left for someone else. Yep, you have been left with, like, acute financial distress. Yep, and like, your life has changed, like, really quickly. So like, it's very hard to let go. In some of those scenarios, you feel wronged. You feel like everything is unfair. So. Like, I can imagine that that's makes it very hard to get unstuck sometimes.

Oona Metz: 25:46

And I think you need to have a good amount of time to to rail against that, to say This is so unfair, and I hate it, and it's, you know, it's awful, and you know, he or she did this terrible thing to me, and there's no consequences. And you know, it's unfair. It's enough, you know, and to have somebody who can listen and say, Yeah, you are absolutely right, yeah. And then at a certain point you have to say, yeah, it is unfair, and you need to let go, like you can keep on that beat, but if you keep on that beat, then

Colette Fehr: 26:23

you're giving power, even more power to the other person, right? And you're robbing yourself. You're robbing it's the drinking poison expecting other people to die. Yes, you know, I think that's as I listened to you. I know that that was so key for me that I did feel that my divorce was unfair. I was left in financial like, dire straits. You know, there was another woman in the picture, not as an affair partner, but like, within 10 seconds, I wasn't even like, dry from the shower of this separation, much less divorced. And there was another woman living in my house, yep, mothering my children. I like to say when I give talks about this that my ex husband replaced me with a new woman, as if he were simply replacing a battery. And we know when we talk about heterosexual relationships in particular, that men often it's a cliche, but it's true. Men really struggle to be alone. They're not as likely to go to therapy to do the work. They don't typically, historically, have as much of a network of friends. Yep. And so you know, if you're in a heterosexual relationship, that's all I can speak to from personal experience, that you may be the one who is like your ex moves on very quickly. Sometimes you're left for that person, yeah, and it can feel so unfair, but I think my own ability finally to say exactly what you said, You know what, this situation sucks. So I had to really come to a place of acceptance and let go and not say, Oh, this was okay. No, this sucks. And I choose to rebuild my life and reclaim my sense of self and reinvest. And in my case, it led to a whole career. So I'm curious, do you think that letting go, that it's necessary to forgive, to do that?

Oona Metz: 28:22

It depends on what your definition of forgiveness is,

Unknown: 28:26

same, yeah,

Oona Metz: 28:29

I think it's really important to forgive yourself, you know, and if somebody has really caused you pain, I think I like the definition of forgiveness where you're not saying what you did is okay. Yeah, you're not saying I want you to do that again. Hell no, no, but, but you may be able to if the definition of forgiveness is more like I understand the context of why you did what you did, and I'm not going to spend energy being angry anymore about that, then, yes, I think it's, I think that's and I don't think it has to be spoken out loud, yeah, or communicated to the other person. I think it can be between you and you.

Laura Bowman: 29:16

Yeah, it's a release. It's like you're getting, you're like, letting yourself out of that, yes, where you're not punishing a person or holding yourself in in judgment with that person and freeing yourself from it. Yeah, that's my I agree completely on that definition of forgiveness.

Colette Fehr: 29:35

Yeah, I love that definition. I think that's the perfect definition, right? It doesn't have any kind of this was okay, or do it again, and I think that's where people can get stuck on forgiveness. And of course, there can be religious components for certain people, but I just like to bring that out because people feel so differently about it, and to say that if your definition of forgiveness hasn't jived with that, you can still let go without forgiving, or you can re narrate and reframe what forgiveness means, but you've got to find a way to let go and put your energy back into you.

Oona Metz: 30:09

Yep, and again, when you were saying earlier, Laura about how hard it is to let go, it is really hard to let go, and there are so many things to let go of. And so I would encourage people, like, how about this if you're like, obsessed all the time with the other person and with the divorce, like, can you schedule breaks yourself? Could you say, like, okay, from eight into 830 in the morning? I'm not going to think about my divorce or my Yeah. It's like, just build it up, little by little by little. Again. It's not like, Okay, on Tuesday, I'm obsessed with my divorce and my ex, and on Wednesday, I've let go, right? It's not that easy. It's it is a kind of more grafting steps thing to do, and there's so many things to let go of, right? You have to. It's not just letting go of your ex. You're letting go of your identity as a married person, your identity as a spouse. You're letting go of your identity of being part of an intact family, you know, and letting go of also the narrative, right? Having a shared narrative, and that's the tough one for people, people really like you were saying, Colette, you know, it sounds like there were a couple different narratives happening around your divorce, and I bet that you there still. Are you that was hard, right? You want people to know. You want to have the same narrative about what happened, yeah, helping people to let go of your need to have the same shared narrative as your ex and as your community.

Laura Bowman: 31:50

I think that goes for families in general. I mean, I think, like siblings, parents, everybody is going to have their own narrative, and can you let them? Yeah? Yeah. That goes everywhere,

Colette Fehr: 32:02

Yep, yeah, because otherwise you can really, like, be hijacked by the the obsessive need to try to control that. And I love that you give tactical stuff too, because so many of these things we're talking about are a process, and the emotions subside when they subside. Everybody's different, but help yourself in ways you can. And there are some small, strategic things you can do, like, if your ex is on your mind all the time, schedule a little period where you're not going to think about it and build on that. Gotta take some baby steps.

Oona Metz: 32:35

Yep, absolutely, absolutely. And I think really investing in other things, like figuring out and which brings me to the next stage, right? Yeah, the final stage, final stage, or final stage is moving on and moving on. It doesn't mean you forget you're divorced, and certainly you don't forget if you're co parenting, right? So how divorce is always going to be part of your story, whether it's it's one year ago or 20 years ago, it's still part of your story. But moving on is really when you make a conscious decision, an intention that you're going to invest in something else, you're going to invest in a new job, a new career, a new relationship, a new yoga practice, a new hobby, a new, you know, I'm going to read, you know, 25 books this year, whatever, whatever the thing is that you want to invest in that you're really saying to yourself, I'm going to take this energy. Because it takes a lot of energy to get divorced. So when you get done, take that energy and invest it in something else.

Colette Fehr: 33:42

Yeah, your new identity, your new self, whatever it is. And this is where the healing really comes, when you are back to the place where you can invest in yourself. But I'm really glad we're speaking to the fact that it does take a while. You really can't short circuit. This you are not going to be totally okay after a divorce, even if you sought the divorce. You know a couple months later, it's just not realistic. It is the death of a relationship of identity, of shared narratives, and like any ending, even though it's okay and it doesn't mean you failed, it's going to require sitting with some difficult emotions, riding the roller coaster before you can get to, like, mending and letting go and moving on

Laura Bowman: 34:29

absolutely and una just to like you've seen so many women in divorce groups like, what are the mistakes, the like, pitfalls, where you're just like, oh My gosh, like, this woman's gonna inadvertently spend so much more time suffering than maybe choices that another person ends up making.

Oona Metz: 34:49

One of them is like not being able to let go. And we really work a lot in the group about the letting go, but that that constant kind of focus back on the divorce and on that kind of victimhood is one thing that prevents people from moving on. And I think another big one is if people, if they move too quickly, to distraction. You know, distraction, in in good doses, can be an effective way of dealing with overwhelming feelings. But if you're doing too much distraction, you know, some people are like, Okay, we decided to get separated yesterday and today I'm on the dating apps. Yes, you know, it's too soon, and dating apps can become very consuming and very distracting. You know, while I like people to be. Able to invest in other things. Eventually, you first have to feel the feelings, right? And there's so many feelings, and if you skip that step, you end up getting stuck,

Laura Bowman: 35:52

and then you'll go through a breakup, you'll go meet somebody, and you'll go through a breakup, and then you're like, have to grieve that breakup and the marriage,

Colette Fehr: 36:02

that was me. That was me. No, listen, at the time, I thought, first of all, I was 31 I didn't know what. I didn't know. I'd never been in an adult relationship, because I married the guy I dated from 18. So I had no dating experience. I wasn't a therapist. I didn't even really get therapy, you know. So I had no idea what I was doing. I had no divorced friends, but I thought I took such a long time. This is comical, you guys. I was single for two months after my divorce, before I started creating the next guy, and then that relationship lasted for two plus years, three plus years of you count all the back and forth until I could finally let it die, and then when that ended, I was alone with myself for the first time, and I didn't have the emotional scaffolding to handle it. I didn't know how to be alone. I was grieving so many layers of grief and having to confront myself in the mirror. It was overwhelming, and I really hit a rock bottom, emotionally, existentially, I was coping by self medicating, drinking too much alcohol, smoking cigarettes. This is a long time ago, and I didn't want to take psychotropic drugs because I thought that was weak again. This is a long time ago. I didn't really think I needed therapy because I had a very like, I should be okay. I'm strong kind of mentality, you know. Again, I didn't I wasn't a therapist yet, so I didn't have access to all that I know now, but I made it harder on myself, and I have a lot of compassion for my younger self. I don't judge myself at all. I just wish I could, like, take that young person and hug her and give her some wise advice, which is why I think your book is so important, because even if you're not that young and inexperienced, it is. So it's one thing to say, feel the feelings. It's another thing when you are feeling the feelings, and they are overwhelming, and there are 18 different pieces, and in some cases you're still trying to parent. In a lot of cases, young children who need you. It is just, it's a tsunami.

Oona Metz: 38:11

It is a tsunami. Yeah, yeah. It sounds like you were, you were doing the best you could back then I was and you learned, you know, and that's the important thing, you learned and you grew and you transformed, and here you are now helping other people.

Colette Fehr: 38:27

Yes, amazing, yes. And now I can say that I'm grateful like I wouldn't do it again, I wouldn't choose it, but I'm grateful for the experience and the new self that came out on the other side. And this is why I think you doing so many groups. It really makes sense to me. Laura and I have done a divorce group for women too. Oh, great, yeah, yeah, it's this is one of those things that, obviously, I encourage people to do individual therapy. But I think this is one of those things that really heals in group, more than anything. What do you think?

Oona Metz: 39:01

Absolutely, absolutely. I think if people could only choose one thing, either individual or group, I think group, you know, for for divorce, is so important because it's so great to get to hear other people's perspectives and to see other people like, one of the things I love is people being at different stages of the game in my group, and the people who are further ahead offer so much hope for the people who are just starting out right. They can see them and be like, Oh, wow, someday I'll be like that. And it's hard to get that in individual therapy, I agree, yeah, and the people who are further along can look at the people who are just coming up and think that that gives them a great sense of perspective too. Like, oh, I remember when I was at that stage. I remember when I was in the heartbreak stage. And, wow, now I'm I've really come a long way. So I just think women can give each other so much wonderful support through that group experience. I wonder

Laura Bowman: 40:08

if resources for men, because I work with a lot of men too, I wonder if we have our supporting our men the way we're supporting women.

Oona Metz: 40:16

Think that men are more likely to go to short term groups than long term. Like my groups are long term, they're ongoing. And I think having groups for men that are a little bit more short term might appeal to them more. I mean, they need to be talking about this too, right?

Laura Bowman: 40:32

Yes, yeah. And I really need those skills to, like, metabolize the loss and transform it into something used. Full, as opposed to just unconsciously going out and kind of recreating the same dynamics and never getting through anything, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Colette Fehr: 40:51

I'm glad you brought that up, too, Laura, because I think that's one of the values of doing the longer term work, is that you can look at your patterns, and even if you were left and you were blindsided and you were cheated on, and it's as unfair as can be when you're ready, there is a lot of value in unpacking the dynamics of the relationship. What role did you contribute, even to just what wasn't working? There's always something that's a dynamic. What do you want in your next relationship? Like, if we can be more intentional and learn from being related, it's the greatest crucible of growth and learning. So I think there's a lot of value in that.

Oona Metz: 41:30

Yes, absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

Colette Fehr: 41:34

So una if you want people to take one thing from your book, like, if you would want somebody walk away with one crystal nugget. I know there's so many good ones. What would that be?

Oona Metz: 41:45

Can I give you two? Please? You can give us three? Yeah, okay, okay, so one thing I would say is, don't do this alone, yeah? Like, find your people, whether it's a therapist or a support group or a friend or my book. You know, my book is a companion. You know, you can put it in your pocket, you can put it in your ear buds, but don't do it by yourself, because it's hard. And the second thing I would say is, like, it does get better, and I know it's if you're in the beginning, it's going to be so hard to believe that, but give me a call in a year and let me know that actually, you were right. I do feel better. You know, you'll feel better in a year. You'll feel much better in two years, and you'll feel fantastic in three

Laura Bowman: 42:36

right? Oh, that's great. I love that. I love a time.

Colette Fehr: 42:40

Yeah, yeah. I want to go through another divorce. Now, I'm kidding.

Oona Metz: 42:45

I think the other thing i The other thing I want to say about my book is I have been talking about it a lot, which is great. And one of the things we've been talking a lot about is this five phase model. But I just want to let people know that there's so, like, that's one chapter of the book, and there's so much more in the book, and it is filled with exercises that help you reflect on your marriage and your divorce and your identity, and is filled also with tons of stories of other people who've gone through divorce, because I know how isolating it can be to go through Divorce, and so if you don't have people around you, or if you only have a few, and you want to read about how other people got through it, you know, I have, there's tons of stories in my book about other people

Colette Fehr: 43:32

going through it, and the stories are really good. It's so normalizing, and it's so helpful when you don't feel alone, but you can also see yourself reflected in these stories, it's so rewarding, yeah, yeah, yeah. So before we wrap up, please tell everybody how they can find you. The book, your divorce group, all that good stuff, great.

Oona Metz: 43:53

The easiest way to find me is on my website. It's www, una met such O, O, N, a m, e, t, z.com, and I also have a ton of free resources. So if you can't afford the book, or if you have the book but you want more resources, there's a ton of free resources on my website, and the book is being sold everywhere. It said Amazon and target and your library, of course. And if you don't want to be seen reading the book, it is out in audio as well, so you can listen to it in your ear buds, and nobody will know.

Unknown: 44:31

There you go.

Colette Fehr: 44:32

And we'll have all of this in the show notes too, so that you guys can grab your copy. And if you're not going through a divorce, we're about to maybe you have a friend who could really benefit from this. I just want to throw out a final word. Reach out to your friends who are divorced or going through a divorce. It's so hard, and when somebody dies, everyone from the neighborhood comes with their casseroles or whatever, especially down here. You know casseroles aren't so common in the northeast, but they everybody comes and surrounds you with community. But when you get divorced, people tend to go, Oh, you're contagious, and they stay away. Reach out to people, you guys, I could cry thinking of it. You could be the one person that like really helps someone feel less alone.

Oona Metz: 45:16

Today, it's so true, so true. And in the northeast, we bring a lasagna or soup.

Colette Fehr: 45:23

I'm Italian. I agree. Bring a lasagna and call people, invite them out. Yes, it will cost you nothing to just you don't even have to talk about the divorce. Just give somebody a little bit of a lifeline of your company. A listening ear and a little bit of support. So thank you for writing this book. I'm gonna get it from my bookshelf, I'll put it right next to crazy, and I'll be recommending it to clients, for sure. It's a really, really good book, and it is a companion, and it will give you so much useful information. So thank you so much for being here today.

Oona Metz: 46:03

Thank you so much for having me. I've loved our having our conversation.

Colette Fehr: 46:07

Me too. And everyone go grab your copy now. The book just launched yesterday. You're gonna love it. And thank you all for listening again to insights from the couch. We hope you got some great insights from our couch today. And if you're enjoying the show, don't forget to follow, subscribe, share it with your friends, and please write us a review so that we can get the word out to women and people everywhere about the kind of topics we talk about here. Thanks so much, and we'll see you next

Unknown: 46:36

week. Bye, guys. Foreign.