Insights from the Couch - Real Talk for Women at Midlife

Ep.83: Healing from Heartbreak: Rebuilding a Life You Love with Cole Zesiger

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 7 • Episode 83

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In this episode, we sit down with dating and heartbreak recovery coach Cole Zesiger for a deeply honest conversation about what really happens after a breakup—and why healing is so much harder than people want to admit. We talk about why heartbreak can feel all-consuming, how our brains are wired for attachment, and why “just move on” is some of the least helpful advice out there.

Together, we explore what it actually takes to recover after loss, rebuild a meaningful life, and create healthier relationship patterns moving forward. Whether you’re newly single, stuck in an on-again/off-again cycle, or simply wanting to understand yourself better in relationships, this conversation is packed with insight, compassion, and practical guidance that meets you where you are—without shortcuts or shame.

 

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] – Welcome to Insights from the Couch and why heartbreak deserves real conversation
[2:10] – Meeting Cole Zesiger and how his own divorce shaped his work
[6:45] – Why rebounds “work”… until they don’t
[9:30] – The evolutionary psychology of heartbreak and why it feels unbearable
[14:50] – No contact explained: why space is necessary for healing
[18:25] – Social media, blocking vs. muting, and why tiny “hits” keep you stuck
[23:45] – Why people stay frozen in grief for years
[26:55] – Colette shares her own hard-earned lesson about no contact
[31:10] – How people actually get back together in a healthy way
[36:00] – Rebuilding your life after heartbreak: the six key areas that matter
[41:50] – Attachment styles and why we repeat the same relationship patterns
[48:00] – Forgiveness, letting go, and reclaiming your energy
[55:10] – Why healthy relationships are worth the risk, according to long-term research

 

Links & Resources

·         Cole Zesiger on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coachcolezesiger 

·         X’s and Knows: The Breakup Advice You Don’t Want to Hear: https://www.amazon.com/Exs-Nos-Breakup-Advice-Dont/dp/1394324138

·         Cole’s Website: https://coachcolezesiger.com

 

If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!

 

Ever stayed quiet to keep the peace and felt yourself disappear? The Cost of Quiet is for anyone who avoids conflict and pays the price. Reclaim your voice, strengthen your relationships, and experience real peace. Order your copy and join the movement: https://www.colettejanefehr.com/new-book

🎙️ Love the podcast? Come talk about episodes with us inside The Midlife Chat. It’s a free, private community just for women at midlife who want to keep these conversations going. We’ve created this space for real talk, fresh resources, and honest connection—where you can share ideas and resources, ask questions, and get support from women navigating the same season.  Come join us—we’d love to have you!

👉 Join The Midlife Chat here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/795863256460970/

Order The Cost of Quiet now! Colette’s new book, The Cost of Quiet: How to Have the Hard Conversations that Create Secure, Lasting Love, launched February 3rd. Order your copy today: https://www.colettejanefehr.com/new-book

Recognized by FeedSpot:
Top 60 Couples Therapy Podcasts | Top 100 U.S. Mental Health Podcasts | Top 100 Relaxation Podcasts

Colette Fehr:

Marc, welcome to insights from the couch, where real conversations meet real

Laura Bowman:

life at midlife, we're Colette and Laura, two therapists and best friends, walking through the journey right alongside you, whether you're feeling stuck, restless or just unsure of what's next. This is a space for honest conversations, messy truths and meaningful change.

Colette Fehr:

And our midlife master class is now open. If you're looking to level up, get into action and make midlife the best season yet. Go to insights from the couch.org and join our wait list. Now let's dive in. Welcome back to insights from the couch, everyone. We have a great guest today. Cole, oh, I should have asked you how to pronounce your name.

Cole Zesiger:

Zesiger, it's a heart.

Colette Fehr:

All right. Not bad. Cole. Zesiger, correct, correct. Okay. Who is a dating coach, a heartbreak recovery coach, I'm going to give you a formal introduction in just a second, but we're going to be talking about dating after heartbreak, how to heal and move on and find the kind of love you want, and even if you're in a relationship, this is something everyone needs to hear, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. And I know a lot of you listening are single, and some of you are even having trouble wanting to get back out there, so I can't wait to hear what you have to say first before I read your bio. Thank you for being here.

Cole Zesiger:

I'm so excited. Yeah, I know one thing for the people who are in relationships still, one of the funnest parts of my job is I hear people's breakup stories every day to several every day, and I can see why these relationships end. And it's kind of like a mirror for me in my own marriage that I'm like, dang it, I did that yesterday. I better stop doing that. So it's it's really informative just to learn about breakups, even if you're not going through

Colette Fehr:

them right, how to avoid the breakup in the first place by doing the right things in your relationship. You got divorced at 23 and then went through another breakup soon after. And I love this. This is where you younger folks just end up being, organically superstars. You began sharing your journey on social media and grew to over 750,000 followers across Instagram, Tiktok, YouTube and more. And Cole has coached 2000 plus people through heartbreak, helping them either rekindle relationships in a healthy way or move on with peace. I love that his practical approach blends psychology, attachment theory and real world strategies to guide people from heartbreak to healing and your date, his debut book, x's and knows the breakup advice you don't want to hear offers a proven roadmap to rebuild self worth, Master communication and create healthy, lasting love. So I just wanted everyone to hear how impressive this is, before you tell us how you got there, because it's really amazing.

Cole Zesiger:

Thank you. Yeah, I can dive into the question. So, yeah. So, yeah, I like, like, she said, I got married really young. I was 20 years old, and I'm from Utah, so if you know anything about Utah, it's kind of what we do. Everyone gets married pretty young. And because of that, I didn't have that much relationship experience. I grew up always knowing that relationships were hard, because that's what everybody tells you. So in our marriage, it was pretty rough, like we'd fight all the time. We were best friends, but we'd yell at each other. We had a hard time with each other's families. But I didn't grow up with divorce as a possibility. Like, I didn't have anyone who got divorced really in my family, one of my aunts was divorced, but other than that, like nothing, all the other uncles and aunts, grandparents. As far back as it goes, no one had ever been divorced. I I really viewed divorce as failure, or like a way of quitting. And then one day after we'd been married for two and a half years, my wife came home and told me that we were gonna get divorced.

Laura Bowman:

So, oh, she told you, she, like, announced,

Cole Zesiger:

decided with her mom. Like, it was pretty it was final, like, pretty much three days after, after she told me we I didn't see her again, never. So it was really, really quick, and I ended up back home with my parents. I'd been an adult for like, five years. I was applying to medical school. I was taking the MCAT. And then, like, kind of the big mistake I made was, instead of healing and trying to take the time to move on and stuff we're going to talk about today, I thought I'm just going to jump into another relationship and get another wife. Because all my friends had wives. They were all starting to have kids. I was going to start going to medical school. And I really thought that if I didn't have a wife going into medical school, I would never find one, for some reason, for some reason. So I just, I got on dating apps, and I got another girlfriend in three weeks.

Laura Bowman:

Oh my gosh. We always laugh about that. We say women go to therapy and men, like, usually go to the bar or, like, the

Cole Zesiger:

dating app. Yeah, that's I went on a date. I literally got on a dating app. Master. Some girls, and then asked my little brother, which one you think is, like, the cutest one? And he told me, and I was like, Okay, I'm gonna marry that one. So then I went on a date with her, and she became my girlfriend. So I literally went on one date and then, so then it actually kind of works. That's an interesting thing about rebounds. If anyone like has done that, they do work for making you not sad, totally, yeah. So that's that's why it's temporary relief from pain. Exactly, yeah. So what ended up happening is that relationship went on for about 10 months, and then we started talking about the future in marriage and everything like that. And as soon as that happened, a flip switched in my brain, and I just became super distant and scared of everything, like all the pain I tried to bury and hide all came out. I started looking for flaws in her and in the relationship, I compared to random couples I'd see on the street. I would think they look so much happier than I am. And eventually she broke up with me too around 10 months so that's when I just thought, I can't do this anymore. I My life sucks, like everything keeps falling apart. I have nothing going on. I got rejected from all the medical schools I applied to, and I just, like, didn't really know what I could do to be better in that so I had nothing. But I really liked watching YouTube entrepreneurship stuff, and they were telling me I needed to start making Tiktok videos. And all I cared about at that point was heartbreak. So I decided I was just going to make three videos every day, saying things that I wish I would hear. And then I dove into studying as much as I could. So on the MCAT, I studied a ton of psychology, did the medical school admissions test, so I kind of just kept that studying habit going for the MCAT. I studied nine hours a day for nine months, just like all day long. So I just kind of kept that going, but I moved it to relationships and psychology because I really did not want to get broken up with anymore. So that's basically how it started, and I ended up just making videos. Eventually, the girl I'm married to now, Jocelyn, she I found her because she watched my videos, and she ended up messaging me, which was really awesome. Are you serious?

Colette Fehr:

Sorry. I've ever heard

Cole Zesiger:

she was divorced in the past, too. So she, she watched for a little bit and noticed, like, the mountains and things in the background. I was like, Whoa, he lives by me. So she messaged me, and that's, that's how we met,

Laura Bowman:

wow, because you're like a unicorn. You're like a unicorn, like a guy out there talking about this at your age. I mean, like, that's like very I think it's attractive to women that a guy is that curious about these issues because his I mean, there are some men in this space, but I don't know how many helpful

Cole Zesiger:

for women. So I like analytics on my my followers. So to encourage the women listening, it's about 5050 women are winning a little bit. It's 52% 48% so about 350,000 men care enough to learn.

Unknown:

Yeah, I love that.

Colette Fehr:

Well, I think it's generational, too. I definitely see huge differences as a couples therapist when I have younger clients in the way a lot of men approach relationships, learning, wanting to evolve, understanding that emotions matter, what connection is. You know, when you get people over 40, certainly over 50, it's really a unicorn because it wasn't part of society. So you're part of what's really helping to change things. And I think to Laura's point, not even just a guy who's curious and talking about it, but you took this as your divorce and breakup as a chance to really grow and evolve yourself and be better in your next relationships. And it sounds like a paid off for you.

Cole Zesiger:

Yeah, marriage is awesome. Now it's, it's not perfect, like I try to, there is a weird pressure, like I I feel like kind of terrified if I were to get divorced again, I feel like I'd feel like a fraud, like it's scary, and then that's a weird added pressure, but yeah, we try our best, and we have a weird dynamic where we talk about breakups and divorce all the time, because I work with clients like that, but I love being married, and it's very, very worth it. So like, if we dive into like, why it's worth facing the fear and learning everything, I definitely think being married and a relationship is definitely worth. Anything you have to go through and anything you have to learn to be in

Colette Fehr:

one, yeah, when it's good, it's really such a valuable resource in life and so rewarding. So let's get into the stuff. Tell us about your book and a little bit you know you talk about, there's so many important pieces rebuilding after heartbreak, what you can learn, what not to do in relationships. That gets you there. And then you also talk about having faith in the future, what to look for in people. So you start wherever you want, and give us some of the nuggets of wisdom that you share in the book cool.

Cole Zesiger:

So the book starts out by talking about why. Heartbreak is so difficult, and I think this is really important for people to know, especially if you're not going through heartbreak, because there's this weird amnesia that comes on everybody, that everybody forgets how hard it is, and then when their friends go through it, they say you should just get back out there, forget about him, or he sucks and and you're still in love with that person. So it's really hard. So I dove a lot into the evolutionary psychology of why we're so connected to people. I thought that was pretty interesting. So what I learned is we used to be living as more Hunter, gatherer people, like when humans were evolving, we used to live in tribes. Some people would hunt, some people would gather berries, tend to the fire, and the people who were able to connect with other individuals at the deepest level are the ones who were able to survive and reproduce. So if you imagine that you're like a caveman person, you're living in the in those hunter gatherer times and you woke up and your entire tribe had just left the the fires smoking and put out with water, your tent is there. All the other tents are gone, and you have no idea what's going on. What you're going to feel is your brain is going to give you a ton of adrenaline, and it's going to hold back all of your dopamine, so you're not going to be satisfied with anything. Everything's going to feel meaningless. You're going to have no oxytocin. You're going to be driven to do anything you can, to go and run after that tribe and track it down, because if you don't, you're going to be eaten by something. You're going to starve. You're not going to make it anymore. So that's kind of the wiring that we all evolved with. And in the modern world, it doesn't work very well anymore, but understanding it helps you know what to do. So if you feel like you just have so much energy, like all you can do is stock social media, drive by their house. You can't stop thinking about them. Your brain is consistently ruminating over them. You're also not enjoying anything. You want to isolate yourself from your family and friends. You don't like work anymore. Pickleball is not fun anymore. Nothing seems enjoyable. You don't have any desire to go out and date anybody else, and you just feel completely disconnected from everything that's that's normal, that's because that's how we're wired, that's how we evolved, because connection is really important, and it can literally feel like you're dying, so at the beginning, like the first the first steps are really learning how to use those brain chemicals so they don't overtake you and get you to do crazy things that ruin your chances of being happy, and maybe get your restraining order.

Laura Bowman:

And I've seen that actually. I've seen like, it can really drive like men into very I mean, not that it can't drive women there, but I see some men get very fixated on like the stalking piece.

Colette Fehr:

Oh, women too. I think women just have a less threatening way of doing it. Yeah, women

Cole Zesiger:

carved through X's house one time. So I've seen the craziest thing I've seen on the woman's side is I've seen one lady drive her car through her ex's house because he wouldn't talk to her. She just drove right through the wall. That's how she got in.

Laura Bowman:

Okay, you win. You win. Well.

Colette Fehr:

And there are stories, you know, if we pull from the annals of true crime, women running their former partners over with a car and certainly tons of murder and attempted murder. Now, obviously those are the extreme, but the feelings that have driven people to this behavior are what we're talking about here. And I'm so glad you said what you said about people having amnesia, it's just like childbirth, right? By the time you have a second child, you forgot what labor is like. Great example. Yes, it really is, because otherwise I never would have had a second kid. I'm glad I did, but it is so painful. And, you know, I posted a video just the other day that got more I got so many personal comments where I talked about exactly what you're saying that people tell you, block them, delete them, move on. Know You're too good for this bullshit and blah, blah, blah, and even though that's the ideal we have, people forget that you can know intellectually something isn't right. Now, in some cases, people are broken up with and they don't even want it to be over, and that adds a whole nother layer. But even when you know this isn't my person, you have that connection that you describe that is a lifeline that we need for our survival. Evolutionarily, it is not so easy to flip a switch. It's very, very difficult and unbelievably painful for all of those chemical reasons you described. So what are some of the things people can do in this state so they don't, let's say you're not planning to run anyone over, but you're not obsessively looking at social media, waiting for the phone to ring. You know, preoccupied my last breakup, every anything that was a color that had to do with where the person went to college, my brain was noticing, because of all these chemicals. So what can help people really be as constructive as possible during that phase?

Cole Zesiger:

It's awesome. It's chapter two of the book. You're going in order. So perfect. So the next thing you do is, it's called no contact, or creating the space you need to heal. So another analogy that works good here is, they've actually done studies on the pathways of the brain that get addicted to substances like heroin or cocaine, and they're really similar, like the same brain areas light up as when you're trying to get over someone that you're that you love. Yeah? So because of that, it's, it's really similar to how you quit those types of addictions too. You don't like, you can't taper off. You there's going to be a withdrawal phase, and you have to give yourself the space away from the substance that you go through the withdrawal. And then after that, it gets a lot brighter. Yeah. So what that's going to look like with a person? It's, it's called no contact, but you don't text them. You put everything that they've given you in a box. You hide it all. You try to stay away from places that were special to both of you, at least for a time. And during that time, it's going to feel worse at first, your brand's going to come up with all these hypotheticals that they're going to forget about you, that they never loved you, that you were tricked there, it's gonna tell you that this was your one chance at love. And maybe now you're older and you're not gonna have any chance like this at all, so you've got to go save this one. You're never gonna connect with someone again this way. And if you think back that caveman example, and even the drug example too, it's your brain does not want to lose this connection. So it's it's against you. It's a fight against you, to do everything it can to get you to hold on to it, even if it's against your best interest.

Laura Bowman:

Cool, is there a time frame? Like, is there, like, Is there, like, a, I don't know, a rule of thumb on time? Yeah.

Colette Fehr:

I'm curious your take on this, because the old school, he's just not that into you. She probably don't even know about but this is this revolutionary book in the early aughts. I've heard they always had a like 60 day. Like they would say, go no contact for 60 days. And by that time, you won't even want to contact them. And if you do, then go ahead. But I that's not scientific, and I think that's really short for a lot of relationships. What do you think? Or do you give a timeframe suggestion to people?

Cole Zesiger:

I do at the beginning, like, I'll say like, 3045, 60 days, but it's more for the person to have something tangible to hold on to, then this is exactly how it's going to go for you. Yeah, because when you're in that space, like, it seems short. 60 days sounds short, but it doesn't feel short at all. It feels like 60,000 years. So having some number to hold on to is actually really, really good. And you will be like, if you do it correctly, like, if you're not checking social media, you're not you have everything put away. I'm going to talk about later, some things that you actually can focus on, but you're not focusing on any of those x related things. You're going to feel a lot better by 60 days. You might not be totally over the heartbreak, but you're probably going to be a lot more clear withdrawal.

Colette Fehr:

You're through the withdrawal. Yeah. I mean the reason I say the 60 day thing, first of all, I think you're absolutely right that for somebody going through that withdrawal, having a timeframe makes it feel more manageable than, like, forever. I just think for a lot of people, especially if it's been a long, deep relationship, to kind of wait it out and white knuckle it for 60 days or 30 days, and then think, Okay, now I'm gonna go back. You're just gonna relapse, just like drug and alcohol addiction. Do you give people? Do you take a stance on social media blocking?

Cole Zesiger:

Yeah, it depends on what you want. So, so if you're trying to reconcile with a person, which is like some people, sometimes you break up for some reason, that's can be repaired. If that's where you are, then I'm more on the stance of muting, like you still don't want to see it, if you want to be with the person, and they got really overwhelmed with life, and they're going to be able to overcome and you guys get back together, things are going to change. Then I don't think blocking is totally necessary. It can. They can send a message that things are totally over. And if that's not where you are, then why send that message? So there is, there's muting. If you're trying to move on 100% block 100% you don't, you don't need it at all. So it's more

Colette Fehr:

anything fires up, it feeds you're trying, we're trying to starve off the connection that your body thinks you need to survive so that you can recover and move on. And unfortunately, even a little blip of that person on social media is enough to light up those dopamine centers and give you some little hit of connection. I have a client who has cut off everything but hasn't blocked she's definitely not an active withdrawal anymore, but she obsessively checks her stories on social media and sees that the guys still looks at her stories, and this has become the only source of connection, but she's still in it because of it.

Laura Bowman:

I have a client like that, too. Me too. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, but I imagine that like this, this is like, sort of a pre contemplative thing, like people may not be ready to do this, like you have to. I mean, even people that are in a lot of pain and they're just really grieving, they may not, it may take them a while to take these steps.

Cole Zesiger:

Yeah, it's different. There's a quote I like that says when, when someone's drowning, that's not the time to teach them how to swim. I kept the same person. So yeah, some people, you just take baby steps of what they're capable of doing at the time, and you just continue to do it. So if someone's totally in love with someone like, let's say you've been married for 25 years, and then you are in love with the person totally you don't know anything's wrong, and then all of a sudden, your husband comes home and says he's been thinking about divorce. Thinking about divorce for the last two years in his head. He didn't tell you anything. And then all of a sudden, you're getting divorced. Like, for that woman, you can't just say, go out and date now, because that's cheating. She was in love with her husband like yesterday. And like, even blocking is going to be really, really hard, but also it's going to continue resetting her so do what you can do, and then, usually, as you work up, you become stronger, and you're able to do more things.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, yeah. And a lot of women in a 25 year coming out of a 25 year marriage have children, and it's not always possible to cut off contact, which can complicate the recovery experience, because ideally, you do, even if it takes you a little time, ideally you do at least need some kind of period where you break the attachment.

Cole Zesiger:

Yeah, that's a good thing to bring up with those people. I usually advise that they they do it, they can't, to make their kids life as normal as possible, so they still work with their partner and communicate when it has to do that, but set it has to do that, but set a boundary and say, like, I I love you, but if this is what you're choosing and and like, we're gonna get divorced or we're breaking up, then it's too hard for me to be in contact with you, if it doesn't include the kids, right?

Colette Fehr:

Or set boundaries, like, let's say you are actively parenting and you're going through a divorce, and you're the one who's love sick. You know, not that this is the ideal, but if you have to communicate with that person about what time you're picking up the kids and who's taking them to McDonald's, I mean, I guess no one goes to McDonald's anymore, but I'm dating myself, right? Who's going to the whole foods, who's picking the kids up at Whole Foods, you know, then at least you could set some kind of boundary of look, look. In order to take care of myself, I want to keep our communication to a minimum, and only as it pertains to the kids, because we've seen as therapists, and I'm sure you see this too in the people you're coaching Cole that some women and men will remain in love with their ex, especially if it's a marriage for years and their life does not move on and they are frozen in grief, and it's really heartbreaking.

Cole Zesiger:

Yeah, yeah, usually, so I find two things when I hear that usually they're either not doing the first thing we just talked about, like they think they are. But if they actually went through and messaged like, like, looked at it, they actually aren't. They actually are still looking at pictures. They're still visiting places, they're still reminding themselves of things. So the first thing, if you find yourself in that category, like, I've heard people say, like, it's been eight years and I can't get him out of my mind, usually that's the first two. They're not actually having that detox period, they're just getting close. They're like, making it like, two weeks, and then they take the drug again, and they just do that consistently, relapse to where most of the time they're doing it right. But because of, like, the nature of the brain and how that works, that you just keep resetting everything, they're not actually moving forward. They just stay in this limbo. But the second, I think, equally important thing is you have to actually make your life better in the areas you can control to be able to move on. So I like thinking, thinking of it that your brain would rather stay in a beautiful fantasy of the past than a really painful present and dull future.

Colette Fehr:

So that that that, yes, that is huge. What you just said, and so true, yeah.

Cole Zesiger:

So, like, what I work through with clients on this is in the book too, is I help them identify these six areas of their life. It's family relationships, friend relationships, religion slash spirituality, like some belief that's bigger than you, hobbies, work and then self care, like, are you eating, going to the gym, sleeping? And then I have them rate those out of 10 based on how they feel about them, like satisfaction level before the breakup, and then now. And what I find most of the time is before the breakup, life as a whole is way better for these people that are really sad, like they they're doing great, and then they isolate themselves from their friends and their friends and their family, because they feel like they never understand. They think God has abandoned them, so they stop praying. They don't they don't play guitar anymore piano. They don't play pickleball, because they feel like hobbies are meaningless. I used to do this with my my boyfriend, and now I don't have him. They they go to work, but it's just drudgery because they have to make money. They don't try to, like, get better at any. Anymore. They don't eat, they don't sleep, they don't go to the gym. And then they say, why can't they move on? And it's, there's no there's nothing you have to move on to So,

Colette Fehr:

and I'll just say now that you mentioned this, just to be a little vulnerable here for a moment, even though I do feel a little bit of even like shame or maybe just embarrassment, that 20 years ago, I went through a breakup that really not my divorce. It was a rebound, like what you described Cole where looking back, I felt like I had not jumped into it, but it was like two months after my divorce, I was 31 when I got divorced, so relatively young, and I got into this relationship that was the most dopamine relationship, maybe I've ever been in a very passionate connection, and when it ended, I did everything wrong, and exactly what you're describing like, I knew I should go no contact, but I would do this intermittent reinforcement where I'd go a while, then I would cave. I was self medicating with wine and cigarettes at the time, so I'd usually cave when I'd had a little too much wine to drink, and then I'd feel this initial relief of, like, the connection I got, like, whatever dose of it, just like shooting up with heroin, followed by feeling absolutely terrible and like death, and on top of it, all the shame and humiliation that I had caved and it went on like this. It took me, like, two years that I went through this. It destroyed me. It destroyed my relationships with other people. It destroyed my mental health. I could not date, I could not move on. I wasn't taking care of myself. It was really one of the worst. It probably was the worst experience of my entire life. I mean, it taught me so much, but everything you're saying, I made all those mistakes, and I really had to learn the hard way. I suffered worse, actually, maybe six to eight months after the breakup, than I did the initial breakup because of my failure to execute what you're describing

Cole Zesiger:

like you were just like the shame and disappointment in yourself, kind of like, compounded on the pain and made it worse.

Colette Fehr:

That compounded it, and I remained addicted to this person, and it became not even really when I look back, it really wasn't about love for the person. I became addicted to some symbolic idea of my attachment to this person, and I hooked myself through intermittent reinforcement on whatever little crumb of contact I had where it became what you describe it was this fantasy. I was the one who ended the relationship at first, like I didn't even want it, and then it took on because it wasn't going to work out. There were logistical issues, like we lived in a different place, we had young kids. It just there was no pathway forward. And I thought I was kind of ready to move on. And then he moved on more quickly with someone else than I did, and that can create a whole thing where you're like the

Cole Zesiger:

other woman,

Colette Fehr:

yes, or all of a sudden you want the toy that you gave away to the kid who, right, you haven't played with the toy in 10 months, but another kid wants the toy, and suddenly you want your toy back. And then I just did this whole cycle of exactly what you're coaching people not to do. And it became, I became more addicted to my fantasy construct of him than I ever even was really invested in the relationship.

Laura Bowman:

How'd you get out? Yeah, I was just saying, like, how did that finally break up?

Colette Fehr:

Oh, for Christ's sake. So finally, he married someone else. But we continued to have this ridiculous cycle of communication, of like, where I'd cry, I'd end up trying to, like redeem myself and look like I didn't care. But of course, that would the the ego wanting to like show him, and I would find reasons to talk to him that were fabricated. You know that that evolutionary desire to preserve the attachment that's destroying you, then I would feel worse. I'd end up crying. We continued to talk on and off until he got engaged to this person, and then that was what finally ended it, that, like this person does not want me to have any contact with you because you feel like a threat to her. I mean, no shit, right? It was so toxic. So that forced me finally into the withdrawal period, and after a short amount of time, relatively speaking, of no contact at all, and really saying, Okay, this is over, and I'm not going to have any contact with this person ever again, and I have had no contact with this person, that is when I finally went through the withdrawal, and that's the only way I got to the other side. So you

Cole Zesiger:

had to hit like a brick wall of like, I can't go any further, or this is gonna be totally outside of who I am,

Colette Fehr:

yes, and it was bad.

Laura Bowman:

Really good to hear you say that though, Colette, because I think for the listener, like if they're on the fence, or if they're stuck in one of these cycles, like it really does underscore that you got to go no contact if you want to begin this healing process. Yes, this is

Colette Fehr:

why I am such a big believer in it. Now, now, if you're in one of those relationships, there are times where the feelings aren't that strong. You break up. If it's the rare thing where both people are really like, ready and able to move on, then maybe you can be friends. But usually, by the time you want to be friends, you don't care about being friends, and do yourself a favor and listen to Cole's advice, whatever age you are, because there really isn't another way

Cole Zesiger:

and even like so this is an interesting thing for the people who are like you and you're like, I really want this to work. That's also how people get back together. That it works is no contact, like the people who actually make their relationships work and they end up getting married and having kids after it's because they both took that time apart. They really don't talk to each other, and then they go through and improve those areas that we talked about, which I do want to add one more thing on that in a second, but they go through and improve those areas, and then they come back together. And now they're different people, but when people try to get back together as the same people, it's like before you knew one plus one equals two, and now you're hoping that it equals seven, but it doesn't still like you're still the same two people, so it's still going to equal breaking up again. And I have not seen people get back together and stay together when they when they keep going through those cycles, but I've seen a lot of people get back together when they actually improve and take time apart from each other.

Laura Bowman:

Tell us a story of that, like, I'm curious about like somebody you've seen, I mean, did they break up with the intention of getting back together, or is it like a like, We're breaking up, and if we find each other, then, like, okay, so be it. Okay.

Cole Zesiger:

So there was one I got done coaching her in June. I usually coach people for three months, so I coached her from March to June, and they broke up. And he broke up with her, saying he didn't want to be with her anymore. It was mainly because of avoidant attachment style that they were diving into deeper things, talking about getting married, and it became too much for him and he left. So what she did is she went no contact, and she started getting really into other things. She had been really anxious in the past and really centered her life on him. She didn't have much going on beyond him, which also added a ton of pressure on him, and probably made him feel like he needed to withdraw more. So she started going on hikes. She got a job that she really liked. She played with her dog a lot. She made all these friends, and she was hoping that he would come back. But it took about, I think, I think he texted her when we had like two weeks left of our coaching container. So it had been like two and a half months where, at that point, she did not think he was going to come back. She thought that it's over, but I'm kind of okay, like, I'm really sad. I miss him. She'd been on like, a date, I think, and it didn't go very well, but she, she had a couple guys that were interested in her, but she liked her life in general. She loved her hikes. She really liked the job. Yeah, she felt great. And she she was not at all in the place she was at the beginning, because she'd built all those other things that she didn't need him, like oxygen. She had all these other things that supported her life. And at that point, he ended up texting her, and he was still like, a little like, flaky and things like that. So she was able to stay strong because he wasn't the only thing that mattered. And then they were able to have a really good conversation. He realized why. He pulled away, and now they have this new dynamic where she just doesn't, like suffocate him with everything, because she's got all these other things going on. And as far as I know, like it's been since June. So they've been together for three or four months now, things are going well as last I heard, like the dynamic changed.

Colette Fehr:

It Right, right, yeah, right, that avoidant, anxious dynamic that's always and just in simple terms, in case some of our listeners don't know about avoidant attachment, you know, we can just summarize it as kind of like a fear of intimacy, the one who withdraws more. And sometimes those people will withdraw, even if you're not anxiously attached, because intimacy, they crave it. But it also feels scary and then, of course, anxious. You don't necessarily, you're not necessarily going to be anxious in every relationship, but if you're anxiously attached, it can manifest as like you described, that suffocating, clinging this person is your whole world, always chasing, needing constant reassurance and proximity and really losing your sense of self to the relationship. So in the story you describe, these people were really able to make changes to their dynamic, and he was able to move toward her, and she was able to fill her life with not just him. And it could work, yeah,

Cole Zesiger:

but if you think about like, if she was expecting him to come back that whole time, she wouldn't have done any. That right now, it has to be, really, I'm, do I have? Yeah, you can, you, you can for a sec, but, like, it you plateau. So, like, if that's one thing I've noticed, actually, is if, if you're, like, all I want is this person back and and that drives you to, like, go to the gym and build your life and stuff that that is cool, that is better than nothing, like it can get you started, but you do plateau, and then you get stuck. Yeah? So it has to eventually become, I'm gonna make my life enjoyable. Yeah.

Laura Bowman:

I mean, that's in therapy. We always talk about, like the number one task is, like orienting people around the life worth living. Like, what is the life worth living? And people have to create that for themselves in a to a certain extent. And it cannot be all your eggs are in one basket, or one person is going to give you a life worth living. You actually have to build it. Yeah. So I'm curious. I'm curious, Cole, like, what was the feedback you got from your relationships, like, what kinds of things did you have to work on to be like a different partner?

Cole Zesiger:

Anxious attachment was huge. I didn't get that feedback, but I figured it out later. Criticism was huge, looking for little problems and nitpicking, which I really met, yeah, which

Colette Fehr:

I realized it was anxious attachment, huh?

Cole Zesiger:

Because I was trying to, I didn't know how to say my needs and stuff, so that it kind of leak out his criticism. So that's, I care about anxious Attachment A ton. Because, yeah, that's, that's exactly, and that's, that's what was really sad and got me learning stuff was because I got divorced, then got in this, another second relationship, and did all the same things like I thought that I had learned because I went through such a painful thing, but I didn't. I just did all the same things again, because I didn't take any time to change anything. Wow. So yeah, for me, and this is i, so I kind of did this on accident, but this is what, what I coach people with those six areas to do. So it seems really huge to say, build a life that you love and is worth living. When your entire life just got taken away. You were supposed to grow old with this person, finish out your life with them. Have kids, have this beautiful time, and now it's just an open mystery, and it's terrible. So what I have people do, and I'll tell you how I did this on accident, but I have people with those six areas. I talked about, pick two or three things you can do that would make those numbers go up, and then you'll have a list of about, like, 18 things. And then just try to do a thing a day. And that's so like, like a family relationships is really low. Try to call your mom. If hobbies are really low, then try a painting class like you just, you just kind of make life into a game and do things to systematically gain those and if you do that for like, a couple of months, then suddenly you're going to be living a life you love

Laura Bowman:

so tactical. I like it.

Colette Fehr:

I love it. I love it, and I see why this works, right? It is so tactical, and you're you're just giving people an action roadmap, right? Like we don't have to decide or over analyze or come to these huge insights. Let's just get into action and do some of these things, because these are the things that are going to bring the feelings of healing as the withdrawal, like the withdrawal peaks, I used to work when I was an intern as a counselor in public detox, like interning to get my hours for counseling, and I would work these overnight shifts and see some of the Most Insane stuff you've ever imagined. You know, people coming in off the streets for like crimes or having mental breakdowns where there was also substance abuse, but so often detoxing from alcohol, benzodiazepines, heroin, opioids, you know, and I think breakups are a lot like this, that first period is acute Hell, where you feel like you're going to die. And then as you start to do this tactical plan, you're giving people and you rebuild these domains of your life, the withdrawal starts to subside, and you're filling your life with things that bring you joy and happiness. And it's like your dopamine starts coming again from healthy things and rewarding activities and people who are invested in you instead of this person you think you can't live without who may or may not be coming back, and much of the time, if someone breaks up with you at the end of the day, it's going to be good riddance in the long run,

Cole Zesiger:

million per that's a big thing is I see with my clients is like, I talk mainly to people who get left, who break like, get broken up with like, I've done polls, and it's, I think like 10% of my audience leaves, but like 90% gets left. Because I think that's just what I started talking to, because that was what happened to me. But in that time, like. It'll feel like, like everybody, you should get all of your partners back. But if you actually think about that logically, like, if you had to be dating all of your exes right now, that would be terrible. That wouldn't be good, you know, it wouldn't be good. So like, yeah, most, most do not get back together. Most breakups happen for a reason, but, but I think it's worth staying in the reality that that is not what the Internet the Internet usually falls into two camps. It's, it's an X is an X for a reason. Never talk to anybody ever again. Or every ex comes crawling back if you do this love spell, like, yeah, and and, like, the truth is, is, I think it's closer to the every X is an X for a reason. But like, not work. So build your life that you love and and it ends up working. I have a

Laura Bowman:

question, like, I'm, like, sort of an outlier in this conversation, because I've been with the person that I met when I was 18. My anniversary, it's been 25 years, so, like, I'm in that camp. It's awesome. Yeah. I mean, it is awesome. But, you know, I chose from a from a young place, right, like and, and my husband has a very, very particular energy. And as I get older, I've like, said, you know, like, I don't know, like, if I would have chosen that exact thing for my adult self, but what I've told Colette, and I've talked about this a lot, is that I find that the people that I am still attracted to have very much the same, like energetic footprint as my husband, and it's almost like it's so unconscious. And I'm just wondering about this, like repetition compulsion that we have like to sort of pick the same things over and over again. And if that's something that you work with your clients about his, are you helping people pick differently? Are you helping people show up or or put things down more quickly, even though they may be attracted into certain dynamics?

Cole Zesiger:

That's an awesome question that is awesome about your marriage, though, congrats. 25 years. Yeah, no, it's it's great. Okay, so my favorite frame to think of this is attachment theory that we that Colette mentioned. So usually what what people will go for is what's familiar and what they defined as love to look like in the past. So one example is like, if you grew up with a golden retriever as a dog, like, that's the dog you grew up with, when you think of dog, then you're going to think of that. Probably you're not going to think of a Chihuahua. That's the first one that's going to pop into your head. So if you had experiences where you were cheated on, or maybe your parents weren't very attentive, and that's what you defined love as for yourself, you're going to naturally be attracted to those things, because that's you'll find what you're looking for. That is what love is. That's what I think it is. So you'll keep finding that, and I see that all the time, that especially people who had, like, really emotionally unavailable parents, will just find emotionally unavailable partners again again, and you can get lucky and just kind of luck into someone else that, like, changes that belief for you. But if you want the most amount of control, it usually there's, there's two things, I think. One is starting to build that life that you show yourself, that I don't need someone to define my life for me, if you show yourself, look, I can go on these vacations by myself. I can have a job that I love. I feel comfortable with my standing before my Creator, or the universe, or whatever I believe in. I have all these friends. I feel great about that. That's going to be one thing, in the same way that like if you're if you're not starving and have no savings, you'll take any job that comes along, if you have a big savings built up, then you're going to wait for one that you actually like. Same thing there. So you have all those life metaphor

Colette Fehr:

that's perfect. Yeah, the more full your life is, the less desperate you are.

Cole Zesiger:

And then second thing is look at the relationships you spend time around. So are all your friends extremely bitter and hate all men, or vice versa. Are your parents like? Is their relationship falling apart? Do you have examples that can rub off on you of healthy, secure relationships? And if you don't, you need to find them and be around them, because once you see it, your brain will be convinced that that actually exists, and then you'll have the motivation to wait for that and search for that

Colette Fehr:

right go to a dog show, see that there are other breeds besides Golden Retrievers. Yeah, there's so many different flavors. You're so right. And I love these great metaphors you have that just drive the point home. You've got to kind of educate yourself that on what love can be if you haven't had models of it so that you don't get into that repetition compulsion and fill your life up, so that you're not just going to desperately jump into the next thing. Yeah, it can change them. Oh yeah, absolutely. You can update your template throughout life. And that's the goal. And I have to say, you know, as we're talking about. This because I had 11 years between marriages as an adult. I dated a lot. I was in long term relationships. I went on tons of dates. So I really feel like I lived this so intensely for such a long stage of my life. But I think that you learn so much from every failed relationship, it's helped me so much in counseling people to know what people go through and why some of this is so hard, and I think so many, maybe most, or almost everyone. If you really do these things you're describing, Cole, you will look back on the relationship even if you were so heart sick and in love and say, Wow, that person was really nothing special, right? Like, it's, it's okay that it's over. I don't have 1x that I think, Oh no, that's the one. I mean, I think that that guy told you about that I'm so heart sick over, he'll, he'll never listen to the podcast. But if he does, sorry, buddy. But I'm like, What was I thinking? You know, and and yet, in time, I'm friends with all but that one guy. I'm friends with. All of my exes. I'm on good terms. I eventually did become friends with almost all of them. Some I don't talk to that often, but some are still a part of my life and are actually friends with my husband. But almost every breakup I really, really suffered until I was willing to do the things that you describe. After that horrible breakup, I started going no contact, focusing on myself, dating with more discernment, doing all the good stuff you're talking about. I again, I had to learn the hard way, but it made a huge difference, and ultimately led me to find a partner that was so much better suited for me.

Cole Zesiger:

That's awesome. School your friends now, like, I feel like it's like, like, 5050, if people do that, because, yeah, it is. I think it's, it's totally great and, and then some relationships, like, like, I have respect for your husband there too. Like, some, some, it's hard because, like, you, you do want to be friends, but the other partner gets insecure, and I think that's okay. And y'all too. So it's kind of, I

Colette Fehr:

Oh, I agree. And I'm not saying that everyone has to replicate that template. You know, when I met my husband, because I'd been single for so long, I told him very early on, I have a lot of male friends, some of them are people I dated briefly. How do you feel about that? And we were able to have a really open discussion. And then I think what made the difference is that he felt confident. There was no dangling feelings. I put him first, and I also brought those people into our life as a couple. You know, I wasn't like, Hey, I'm going out with my ex boyfriend tonight. I'll catch you tomorrow, you know. And eventually, in time, it became just a non issue. So it worked in my case. But I don't think you have to be friends with your exes. I think really the point I was trying to say is that there's almost no one you can't get over if you do it right

Cole Zesiger:

100% so I'll answer this thing, because this is probably the sneakiest way that people fail to get over things, because it feels like you're doing something right, is refusing to forgive people for how they hurt you. And I'd like to hear what you guys think as therapists too, because I've heard some different things on the internet, and this is kind of like my own idea

Colette Fehr:

yeah, what's your idea on it? Like my idea

Cole Zesiger:

is for forgiveness always, no matter what, like you have to so I'll explain why. But I don't even have exceptions. Really. I have an exception short term, but not long term. So I've observed a lot of people who do the No Contact, they do all this stuff. They build lives that they love, but they were extremely hurt by their partner, so maybe, like, let's just say, like they got cheated on, because that's an extremely painful Yeah. And then they refuse to forgive, and they're good, but every time something reminds them of their ex because they haven't forgiven him, they continue to feel anger, and they're kind of like stunted, and that also leads to trust issues that now they have a hard time with other people. They have they get triggered very often by other people who do some of the same mannerisms, even if they like. If they're on a dating app and they see the same name, they'll automatically swipe past all of those people like it just they get like, plateaued at a certain level.

Laura Bowman:

It's stuck. Like, I always think of it as, like I the way they trap monkeys is that they have the banana, and the monkey sticks his hand through and he won't let the banana go, and then the monkey's like, trapped. And that's what happens when people won't for forgive, is they won't let go of this like thing, and then they stay attached to it, unwittingly, as opposed to, if you forgive, it's not that you're excusing what happened. It's like you're releasing yourself from it.

Cole Zesiger:

I That's exactly what I think. So I guess I am a therapist. Take, okay,

Colette Fehr:

good, well, I have a slightly different take. I do have a slightly different. Take. Okay, so you know, to some degree we could even say that it's semantics, depending on how you define things. But Janice Abrams springs, who is famous and wrote the book, Dr Janice Abram springs, who wrote the book after the affair, she also wrote this book. And I can't remember the name of it exactly. It's on my shelf somewhere, but about not forgiving and still moving on. Basically, the idea is you don't absolutely have to forgive. What you do really have to do is let go. And for many people, that involves forgiveness. And this is why I also say maybe it's a bit of semantics. What you don't want to do is be holding on to anger and bitterness and resentment, because that is where the old adage is true. It's like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die. And it can become someone's whole raison d'etre, right? Is there they're stewing in hatred, and it becomes a victim mindset, and that's what really keeps them holding the banana. So whether you actually, for some people, I think it may be important to say, you know, it's not okay. What happened to me? I don't forgive that person for what they did, especially when something unconscionable. I mean, I've had clients that are left, you know, they're pregnant, they're just horrific things left in financial distress with young kids and things that I think are really hard to to say, I forgive you. Now, if you can forgive, great and certainly for some people, you know, I'm Catholic, it can be a very big part of religious beliefs. But if you're someone who really can't forgive, there can be nuanced ways to say, I don't You already said it right? I don't condone this, and I don't forgive, but I let go, I release this person. And I think the more important thing, whether you actually forgive or not, and certainly I don't think anyone forgets, is that you find a way to let go and reclaim your life and your energy is put into you, and not into nurturing the grudge and that you're a victim and that this person wronged you. I mean, I know people who are divorced for 30 years, and it's still all about what happened to them and that rotten bastard and good luck having a joyful life that way. So I think for most people, I'm not really disagreeing with you, I'm just suggesting that if you're somebody where forgiveness feels impossible because of your beliefs or whatever it is that was done to you, that you may still be able to find a way to let go, whether you actually forgive or not. I like that. Does that make sense?

Cole Zesiger:

I think it sounds like the same thing, like I'm, yeah, I'm, how would you describe letting go without forgiving? I guess that's that's the difference. Is there a way?

Unknown:

Yeah, moving on,

Laura Bowman:

moving on, building your life, yeah, understanding where your energy goes.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, you're you're not ruminating, you're not focused. Your energy on the person. And I think a big part of it is not moving from victim mindset into growth and empowered mindset. Yeah, forgiveness feels essential to that, then great. And if it doesn't find a way to do that without calling it forgiveness, that's why I say it might be

Cole Zesiger:

somebody I think it's, I think it's what it's being called, because, like, the way that I define forgiveness is that I'm, I am not going to suffer over this anymore, like, pretty much defining as letting go. So I think, I think it is the same.

Laura Bowman:

I just want to say because I just had recently an experience where I felt like I got thrown back into a feeling about a relationship that I've had that really like kind of undid me recently. And I thought I've worked through this, like I've let this thing go. And I think that what we have to be so compassionate towards ourselves, about is that what has injured us will likely have will always injure us when we think about it, and that it will resurface in multiple times, in ways in our life. So even though you forgive in a certain moment and you detach, you may have to do that work

Cole Zesiger:

multiple times. Yeah, that's a great point. Usually, usually decreasing over time in intensity,

Laura Bowman:

yeah, hopefully, yeah, human experience, yeah.

Colette Fehr:

Because to your point, Cole, though, before we wrap up, as I think about it, when I think about my ex husband, ex boyfriends, even the things that happened that were so hurtful and harmful, there really isn't anybody that I don't forgive, and I also own my own part that I contributed, because a relationship is a dynamic, and it's rarely ever one per all one person's fault. Why something doesn't work out? Out. So I think it's a really important point.

Cole Zesiger:

Yeah, usually like how I define it and how I define it, because there is a chapter on forgiveness. It's on self forgiveness and then forgiving of your ex. Because the other half is I continue to beat myself up, but I view forgiveness as it's it's not really my job to continue being angry about this forever. It's my job to learn from it and to not let you back into my life if you did something terrible, but, but I view it mine is more from a religious lens, like I view that like justice is God's not mine, and that like things will happen, and that helps. But I when someone, when someone hurts you, and and when the choice is, like, go into that victim mode, which I think the internet doubles down on. You get a lot of views for saying, like, this person hurt you, like, you should be mad, you should be sad. These are all the red flags about them. The internet is very conducive to that victim mode. If someone hurts you, it's not your fault. And like, like, it's theirs, but, but I do believe in the accountability that it's your problem, and now you have to get over that pain, and forgiveness is what I label that as. Then you have to find some way to let go of it, and forgiveness is the best word I know of to describe that.

Colette Fehr:

I love that, and I love that definition of not suffering, choosing not to be angry like re it's reclaiming your life. It's all the things that are going to get you the life that you want to lead, and staying stuck on somebody and what they did to you is the surest way to destroy your mental health and your well being, whatever we want to call it, you got to move forward, and you're the only one who can choose to do that.

Cole Zesiger:

And it's worth it. So that's like a good, good point to end on is like it's gonna feel like love is this hot pan that you burned your hand on and now you don't want to ever touch it again. But if you've read, I think it's called the study on adult human development, but it's by Harvard University, yeah, and studied it. They looked for what makes people happy. It's gone for 88 years now, around, I think it's 85 or 88 but they've, they've interviewed these people every three years. They've taken blood samples, they've they've asked, I think it's about 1700 people, how, like, what makes people healthy, happy and successful? And the answer over and over again, is the quality of your relationships. The craziest fact I've seen in it is, if you find someone with cancer who's like 50 and someone who's like in a terrible marriage at 50, the cancer person has a higher chance of surviving longer, that's crazy. It matters a lot. So like whatever the pain that you have to go through to to learn how to have a relationship again, or to forgive or to build your life again, all that data says worth it. That's that is the thing we can do to be happy and

Colette Fehr:

fulfill a good relationship is worth whatever it takes to get there. A bad relationship will ruin your life and your health more than anything, right? And I think your work is really

Laura Bowman:

important, Cole, I'm glad you're doing it. You guys do Yeah,

Colette Fehr:

yeah, it's wonderful. And I could have used you a million times over the years, but I got there anyway, in the end, just a lot of trial and error. So I can see why it's so powerful to work with you and really be coached through this process, because you need the support, and people need these actionable steps. So before we let you go, tell us again where people can find you, social media, where they can find the book, all that good

Cole Zesiger:

stuff, awesome. So I'm on Instagram, coach, Cole z eziger, and then everywhere else is just Cole zigger. So YouTube threads, tick tock, and I make videos on all of those. You can see them. And then for the book, it's going to be pre ordered anywhere they're in. I think it's going to be in just about every Barnes and Noble. And then it's also on Amazon, or you can find it on my site, coach, Cole zigger.com/x, and knows wonderful.

Colette Fehr:

And we will have all the links in the show notes as well. Everybody go grab a copy of this book. I can't wait to read it myself, and I'm definitely going to recommend it to clients. Thank you, yes, of course, of course. Thank you so much for coming on. This has been a great discussion, and it's so heartwarming to me to see young guys like you doing this relationship work. It's so good for people who get to work with you individually, but just also it's a positive sign in our society. I really think

Cole Zesiger:

I love talking like you guys. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, great. Thank you for coming by

Colette Fehr:

and thank you to all our listeners. We hope, as always, that you got some valuable insights from our couch today, and we will see you next time. Bye, guys, you.