Ep. 89: Joy Costs Pain: How to Keep Going When Growth Feels Like Suffering

In this episode, we dive into a conversation that feels deeply personal—especially if you’re in a season of striving, questioning, or quietly wondering, Is this it? Inspired by Colette’s recent reading of A Million Miles in a Thousand Years, we reflect on success, purpose, and why even the seasons that look “good” from the outside can feel surprisingly disorienting and exhausting.

We lean into the uncomfortable middle—the stretch where you’ve worked hard for something but still feel unsure of what’s next. We talk about the younger parts of ourselves that flare up when plans don’t unfold as expected, the urge to pull back when it all feels like too much, and the realization that joy may not come from avoiding struggle—but from staying in it long enough to be changed.

 Episode Highlights:

 [0:03] – We’re back on the mic and jumping straight into existential midlife questions.

[1:01] – Colette shares how reading A Million Miles in a Thousand Years sparked a deeper reflection on what makes a life “well lived.”

[5:13] – The power of story: Are we meant to attain something—or be transformed by the search?

[8:59] – Familiarity as the greatest seducer: Why we stay stuck even in “comfortable” unhappiness.

[10:56] – Laura opens up about meeting a young, entitled part of herself when life doesn’t go according to plan.

[15:02] – Coaching yourself through emotional overwhelm: movement, naming feelings, and creating space.

[18:30] – The fear of making the wrong choice—and why meaning matters more than accolades.

[24:40] – Forcing yourself into growth: committing before you feel ready (TEDx talks, book deals, Machu Picchu).

[27:13] – The marathon as metaphor: Laura’s renewed commitment to the New York City Marathon and doing hard things differently.

[31:35] – Why suffering may actually be the pathway to joy.

[33:49] – When you want to quit everything: the difference between discernment and hiding.

[35:30] – Our closing thesis: Happiness isn’t eliminating obstacles—it’s being willing to stay in the game.

If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!

Ever stayed quiet to keep the peace and felt yourself disappear? The Cost of Quiet is for anyone who avoids conflict and pays the price. Reclaim your voice, strengthen your relationships, and experience real peace. Order your copy and join the movement: https://www.colettejanefehr.com/new-book

🎙️ Love the podcast? Come talk about episodes with us inside The Midlife Chat. It’s a free, private community just for women at midlife who want to keep these conversations going. We’ve created this space for real talk, fresh resources, and honest connection—where you can share ideas and resources, ask questions, and get support from women navigating the same season.  Come join us—we’d love to have you!

👉 Join The Midlife Chat here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/795863256460970/

Order The Cost of Quiet now! Colette’s new book, The Cost of Quiet: How to Have the Hard Conversations that Create Secure, Lasting Love, launched February 3rd. Order your copy today: https://www.colettejanefehr.com/new-book

Transcript

Colette Fehr: 0:44

welcome to insights from the couch, where real conversations meet real life at

Laura Bowman: 0:49

midlife, we're Colette and Laura, two therapists and best friends, walking through the journey right alongside you, whether you're feeling stuck, restless or just unsure of what's next. This is a space for honest conversations, messy truths and meaningful change.

Colette Fehr: 1:07

And our midlife master class is now open. If you're looking to level up, get into action and make midlife the best season yet. Go to insights from the couch.org and join our wait list. Now let's dive in. All right. So let's just jump right in. Look, we just got off the phone. We're talking about a million things. My mind is buzzing. We haven't recorded in a while, so I'm excited to just talk about some stuff that's going on right now with you. And like, there's just so much bursting in my brain.

Laura Bowman: 1:36

Yeah, what's bursting in your brain?

Colette Fehr: 1:41

Okay, first I'm sitting with an existential issue. I just read this book. Oh God. Now I'm not going to do the name of the book justice. It's one of those books where the title makes me feel like I have, or I want to have dyslexia. And I mean, no respect to dyslexia, I'm going to tell you the name. It's like 1000 things in a million years, or a million years and 1000 Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, I don't know what. Okay, never heard of it. It's by Donald Miller, and it's called a million miles in 1000 years. What I learned while editing my life? Oh, I love this. I love the title. Wait, say it again, a million miles, a million miles in 1000 years, what I learned while editing my life. So this is how the universe can work in interesting and confounding ways. How little things can find you right when you need them that make you think. I'm a few weeks into this book launch. I'm grappling with, first of all, the existential difference between people looking at all of this and saying, oh my gosh, you must feel ecstatic. You were just on the tamaron Hall Show. Your book's doing well, I don't even know if it really is. I mean, I think it is, but I'm not even really sure and how I feel in my daily life, which is, like, what's next? Is it going well? What do I do? How do I not mess it up? What do I want? I don't even really know. How do I make my life manageable again? And all while, I feel completely exhausted, and I want to go, which is not like me. I want to go crawl in like a little hammock somewhere on the corner of the earth and take a very long drug induced nap. So I'm really struggling with how to keep going. And oddly enough, one of our past podcast guests recommended this speech coach to me. I met with him. He helped James clear, who wrote atomic habits, take his speech to the stage. His name is Mike peckion. Anyway, it's just, I just, I didn't even look into him. I didn't even know that until the call. I just, like, booked an appointment with him because I'm like, Okay, I want to be I'm doing all these talks about my book. I've already done a TEDx talk on the same topic, but like, I feel like I'm creating something new every day, and I don't even really want to get out of bed. So I end up on this talk with this guy. He also helped this other guy, Donald Miller, I just mentioned with some of his talks. And so I hear about this book, and I decide, randomly, it's so old, the book came out, I don't know, 15 years

Laura Bowman: 4:27

ago, probably the best kind of

Colette Fehr: 4:29

book, yeah, and I decide to read it, and it's just, first of all, it's beautifully written. It's a very religious book. It's, to me, he's, he's a Christian. He talks about God a lot in the book. I'm not very religious, although I'm raised Catholic, so when that part started, I was like, I don't know if I'm going to like this, but it all really spoke to me. And basically what this guy describes is that he had written a memoir. It did really well, and these people approached him to make a movie of his life. And it's very different to make a movie of your life than to live your life, but in the editing process, it made him contemplate, what is the meaning of life. How do you live a good life? And you live a good life by living a good story, the elements of a story that a character has to want something and overcome conflicts in order to get it and be transformed by the journey made him think about how he needed to engage in his life differently and in this case, get off the couch. And like, Stop hiding from life. I mean, he was already a successful writer. It's not like this guy was a couch potato, but he was struggling to see his life as a compelling story,

Laura Bowman: 5:53

even after he'd written a memoir. Yes.

Colette Fehr: 5:56

I mean, I think it was in the in the present moment that he was struggling to he was kind of looking at his life and going, what do I remember? Not that much. In this case, this man didn't grow up knowing his father, and he didn't think he really particularly cared, but they wanted to bring him meeting his father, and that this was this wound, this unhealed wound, into the movie. So he just started thinking about, you know, when you get to the end of your life, like, what, what is going to have made, made it a life, well, lived, yeah. I mean, it's a huge question.

Laura Bowman: 6:37

Well, it's a huge question. It's the question, right? I mean, this is where it's like, I'm coming back to Katherine Woodward Thomas' book. You know, that book had, has had a big impact on me,

Colette Fehr: 6:49

and I love it. I'm not,

Laura Bowman: 6:51

I'm talking to everybody about it, because I love how it transforms, how counseling can work and how change can work. And like that you're always using something you're trying to create as grist for your own mill of sharpening yourself that you are the tool that you are always trying to overcome these bits of blockage to create something worth worth having, and that in the pursuit of that, you become your best

Colette Fehr: 7:25

self, okay, this is the same, this is the same thesis. And I think this is the thesis, the hard part, right, that you're, you're becoming, you're always becoming, coming. And it is not actually the attainment of anything, any accolade, any success, any monetary value, finding true love, having a child, whatever you dream of, you still wake up and there you are. It's the process of striving and growing that really makes you it hones you into this beautiful, sparkling jewel that you are meant to be? Yes. And the problem is, though, as I'm conceptualizing it right now, and this is why I love this book by Donald Miller, because he's one of those writers. He's just a beautiful writer. He can my favorite writers are the ones who can say a sentence about daily humanity in a way that you'd never thought of, and it just makes you feel so gotten like, it just captures the human experience. And it's so simple. So he's got all these, like, just perfect little sentences that I was like, oh my god, I made a list of quotes from the book. That's how much I liked how he wrote. And then other things about the book, you know, aren't that great? I don't know if there's a cohesive narrative. I don't I read reviews online, and some people hated it and some people loved it, but it spoke to me at this time because he talks about how when you're in it, you don't like it, you resist it. And that people either, this is my interpretation of his writing, people either sort of collapse into atrophy of like the day in, day out, I'm comfortable enough. Maybe I want something, but I don't know what it is, or it's not clearly defined, or it's not like a burning thing, and I'm too comfortable here to overcome the inertia it would take to move wherever that might be. Even people are comfortable in relative unhappiness, right? We're really he speaks to this, and we know it's true psychologically, that familiarity is the greatest seducer.

Laura Bowman: 9:40

Yeah, it's such a huge obstacle. Luckily, I'm in a like crazy phase of flux right now that you know when you're in one of these phases, and I know you are too. I think we're in those phases for different reasons, but you meet parts of self that are underdeveloped, that need your attention. And I, for one, have been like really meeting parts of myself, and I think that you don't understand, at least, I'll speak for myself. I haven't always understood that I'm dealing with the same part over and over in different seasons. I was writing a whole piece about health anxiety, and we're going to do an episode on that. And I had a huge horrible bout with that, when I couldn't become pregnant with my second child after an ectopic pregnancy. And it was me trying to fight against what I believed I I had lost in the pregnancy loss. US, and me trying to make something happen, and me like not grieving, not being present with my own pain, trying to, like, strong arm my way through things. And I thought, oh, that part just showed up then. But now I'm realizing that part is still there, always waiting to be like, revealed to me, like my own underdeveloped, entitled self that wants to have, like, a major temper tantrum when things don't go my way. And it's like, here it is again. And it's like, instead of being I'm so blended with it, I have enough space now to go, oh, look, here it is again, the same theme that maybe I've dealt with 10 times in my life, that I've just never, ever noticed how I'm contributing to it, or I'm not able to coach myself through it. Here it is again. Okay, so

Colette Fehr: 11:37

flesh this part out for me a little bit like, how does it show up in your daily life? Because I imagine a lot of people can relate to this. I'm also meeting underdeveloped parts of self. But what is this part like, and how is it presenting

Laura Bowman: 11:51

it's a young part. It's a really young part. And I've got to say like, I don't think I see it very often, because I've had a life where I've gotten a lot of what I've wanted, it really comes out when my my plans are thwarted, you know, for some reason.

Colette Fehr: 12:09

Okay, so when you say a young part, so you and I are, we live in the land of like parts work as therapists. But not everyone knows what that means. You know, it's, it's really like, like a, like a an inner child, a younger part of self that we all carry. Our personalities are complex, so Laura and I talk about parts all the time, yes, so this is like a part of you that maybe, and we all have them, that is maybe didn't develop past a certain age and still lives inside and comes out under certain conditions, namely, when something doesn't go your way, and that purchase wants to be like, it's not fair. What the like, like, like, man

Laura Bowman: 12:51

once a baseball bat, and it wants to break things like, and I think as a child like, and I wasn't, I'm not, I wasn't. I was a good kid, right? I wasn't like, somebody that, like, had tantrums or anything, but I do remember, like, having rage around things. I remember, like, as a little girl, like my dad. This is like a famous story in my family, but it's like illustrative. It's like we were going to get a My Little Pony. Do you remember the My Little Ponies and I wanted running raindrops was like the yellow horse with, like, the purple and the the raindrops, and they didn't have it. They didn't they didn't have it. And I, like, couldn't leave the store. Like I was beside myself. Like, I think my dad had to, like, haul me out of there, and I just couldn't get over the fact that I couldn't get it right now. Like, it's like, a very entitled, like, why can't I have this? Yeah, and I think my mom, like, had it on my bed when I came home from school, like, a couple days later. And I think my life has largely gone in some way like that, where obstacles form. They're very frustrating. Obstacles are frustrating for everybody, but there's a rescue, like, somebody's gonna come and like, make it work. And now, as an adult, I'm the person who has to make it

Colette Fehr: 14:07

work, right? No one's coming

Laura Bowman: 14:09

to save you. No one's coming to save me. And I think that even though I have that adult awareness, because, I mean, I've been a counselor for a long time, and that helps, but the primal body experience is still like that little girl who wants to, like, freak the fuck out and behave really badly. So I'm doing a lot of talking to myself.

Colette Fehr: 14:37

So okay, myself. A couple of questions about this, because I'm sure people can relate when your life isn't going according to plan, in ways that are hurtful, scary, feel stuck, feel overwhelming. You know, like you said, we're going both going through changes. It can feel largely out of control, and I think this is a really hard state for people to be in, so it can bring out these parts of self that aren't how we operate all the time. We might know intellectually, okay, we were grown ups and we have to pull on our big girl panties, but that's not how we feel. And so when you when you're faced with this isn't how I want it to be. I can't really do anything but be in it and try to take care of myself and be with the feelings. How are you coaching yourself right now? What are you finding helpful when you say talking to yourself? This is a big thing. We're advocates of. It. People don't do well,

Laura Bowman: 15:43

typically, yeah, I'm acknowledging what it is that I feel. And I'm doing a lot of trying to get like, the stress moved through my body, like I'm doing push ups against the sink, against the wall. I'm like, trying to just move stress through me, because the the stress lives right in my shoulders and in my body and my my gut. So it's I'm getting that the cycle of energy move through me, walking, running is huge. I didn't want to go this morning, but it was, it was really important that I did, because I was able to shift some things mentally. I have a bit of space Colette, where it's like, I can see this from a distance, and I can see the larger meaning of it like I'm not so blended with it that I can't see how this is actually happening for me in my life. But oh, here is this lesson again. Yeah, let's see if you can be with it differently. So having just a little bit of space helps me talk to myself differently, yeah, yeah, and shift it a little bit. Yeah.

Colette Fehr: 16:49

This is the heart of you know, the process I teach in my book and in my work, the self connected communication that you are naming your emotions, you're allowing them, that helps us to regulate, and then we're turning toward ourselves because we are the adult who is coming to rescue those scared, hurting parts, and we're compassionate and we're validating, and we actually say to ourselves, like this is really hard, and I can get through it, and I can be kind and loving to myself. And that connection to the universal flow that other people are suffering along with us can be so powerful, yet it is a process that you have to continue to do, because when something's happening that you're in the throes of where you don't know what's going to happen, and I were like, right now, for me, I think the greatest paralysis is not paralysis. I'm exhausted, and I don't know if I know exactly where I'm headed right now. I've had very sharply defined goals for the past three years that have really anchored me, and I've been very driven and very purposeful, and I've worked very hard, and I'm proud of myself for many, many things, absolutely, that pride is genuine, and I'm getting messages from people constantly like, oh, you should be happy. Stop and smell the roses. Enjoy it. I know people are well intentioned, but it's really invalidating. They're not in my body, and I have younger parts of self that feel very scared and unsure of what the future looks like, and the fear is really of making mistakes I don't know what to do next. And there's a lot of pieces to the puzzle that need to be solved. It's not just like, Oh, yay. Like, these are not the fun problems. People's lives are more complicated internally than any of us realizes, which is why it's also important to remember to, like, really give people some grace. You don't know what they're going through. Yeah. So I'm struggling with, and there was a beautiful line in the book I want to read too, but I don't want to make the wrong choices. I don't want to. And it's not about for me, fame, achievement, that's really not what I'm in pursuit in I'm in pursuit of meaning, of doing things that I find purposeful, that that use my highest and best talents that allow me to flourish and continue to develop and have an impact on the world at the same time. That's what I really want. I want a life of meaning. It doesn't have to be easy. I'm willing to work hard, but I'm confused right now. All right, let me read this part. This wasn't even the one I was looking for, but I just think this is so about the meaning of life and struggle. Okay, this is from this book, a million miles in 1000 years. He said, essentially, humans are alive for the purpose of journey, a kind of three act structure. They are born and spend several years discovering themselves in the world. Then plod through a long middle in which they are compelled to search for a mate and reproduce and also create stability out of natural instability. And then they find themselves in an ending that seems designed for reflection. At the end, their bodies are slower. They are not as easily distracted. They do less work, and they think and feel about a life lived rather than look forward to a life getting started. This guy didn't know what the point of the journey was, but he did believe we were designed to search for and find something, and he wondered out loud if the point. Wasn't the search, but the transformation the search creates that we were designed to live through something rather than to attain something, and the thing we were meant to live through was designed to change us. The point of the story is the character arc, the change. And so that is it. And yet, what he says in the book is that when you're in it, you're feeling exactly like what we described. Young parts of self are popping up, saying, but no, this isn't what I wanted. I don't want this, and I feel powerless to change it, or I don't know what I want. I don't know what to do next. What if I mess up or I'm bored. My life is unremarkable, and every day feels like time to make the fucking donuts.

Laura Bowman: 21:30

Honestly, I gotta say, that's like, the worst one. I like, I'm suffering right now in a lot of ways that I wish I weren't. And I would love to, like, maybe part of me would love to be bored, but I've been bored, and I feel like that's the lowest energy state ever. And I would almost I can see that what I'm going through in my life right now is shaping me. It's like iron on iron, like it's, it's, I'm getting shaped, and I'm and I'm doing it mindfully, and I would rather be in pain, in the suffering, and working through something, working against something, then being with no but where there's nothing to work against,

Colette Fehr: 22:13

I completely agree.

Laura Bowman: 22:15

So I have and then that awareness alone with what you're saying, where the work works on you more than you work on it is what helps me stay in, like, an adult frame of mind and curious about what I'm going through. And just that little bit of curiosity and that little bit of space going this is leading somewhere. This is changing you. You're getting better because of this, not and it doesn't feel great, but you're you needed this, like, oh, like, there is a part of self. It's like, God, you needed this,

Colette Fehr: 22:45

and you will be better for it, and your life will be more interesting and fulfilling. I couldn't agree more, and I am coaching myself in a very similar manner, having some perspective, a lot of nurturing, a lot of curiosity, not taking my emotional states too seriously when I'm in them, but not beating myself up for them. I either not making big decisions out of emotional moments, which is a big growth arc for me, because I tend to be a more intuitive and emotional person, and I can be impulsive. Impulsive would be the bad end. Decisive would be the good. And I'm willing to take risk. But I'm learning through all of this to let some things settle right, to not decide, oh, I want to move to some place where no one knows me when I'm, you know, two and a half weeks out from a book launch, right where I would have made decisions differently. So I think all of that awareness and self compassion and curiosity, that like being forged in the fire has pain points. It's grist for the mill. It's going to make it better is so, so, so helpful, but I think also continuing, and this is part of the curiosity, continuing to ask ourselves, like, what is my why? What? What do I want? And the quote that I searched for in the book but couldn't find, and I will find it eventually and share it with you. It's a simple sentence, but it's about part of why we feel so dissatisfied or bored. Right? For people who do feel that way, and I think a lot of people do, is that we're walking into the wrong rooms. We're making the wrong choice, like the meaning is in choosing, even if it's painful and difficult, is in going into the right room. Yeah, and I think that one of the things we talk about a lot that's so relevant here is you don't have to live a big life. It's not about a big, grandiose life. It's about being involved in something that feels meaningful probably involves helping other people, using your natural abilities and gifts in service of others, something bigger than you. You know, whether it's through like church, community, your job, all of the above, being engaged and present with your family, whatever family means to you, having experiences with those people where you're really awake and engaged and taking on challenges that push you out of your comfort zone. And I love how he talks about it in the book that we don't you and I talk about this we don't do it like people. Will almost have to be pushed. And what I like about how he talks about it is that he says something I've always done and judged myself for that gave me permission to feel better about it, that I would force myself, like I'd lock myself into a commitment that I was terrified of, like, let's say like, the TEDx talk, right now, I'm like, Oh my God. I went after that so hard, but I was so scared of it. And then I was like, Well shit. Now I got one. And now I have to, I have to, I have to. And also, by telling everyone I was doing it, I made it like, now people are expecting you're doing it. Collette, so you better do it. But I had parts of self that didn't want to do it at all, up until this at all, that, in fact, wanted to run and go. I don't know who that Colette lady is that signed us up for this, but she's dead. We're not doing it. Yeah. And then he says it's that's like, how you have to often do it, like, yeah, he's not dating, and he's fat. He was like, fat his whole life and out of shape. And so he forces himself. He hears about this trip to Machu Picchu, he can't even, like, walk down the block, and there's this lady in some class with him that he thinks is cute, but she does not have any interest in him. And he hears about the trip, and he's like, Hey to her and her friend, there's this trip to Machu Picchu that we're getting a group together for. Are you guys interested? And they say yes. And so this is the thing that forces him now he's like, Fuck, what do I do? I gotta get in shape. Yes. And this is what forces him to get into shape, and he ends up dating the woman. It doesn't work out, but they he forces himself into the terrified zone of inaction by committing to action that he's not not ready to take. I love it, and then he has no choice. And I used to feel ashamed of that, like if people knew how scared I was to do those things, that I literally, like, brow beat my child parts into it and give them no choice, and then I just have to survive the day. But that, that's how I've done her thing.

Laura Bowman: 27:53

Yes, and you know, it's so funny that you say that because I've been trying, like, I have a bucket list thing of running the New York City Marathon. And I'm like, just, truthfully, I'm not in running shape right now. Like, I ran a mile and a half today, and it was hard. Let's just say that I've been doing a lot of walks hard

Colette Fehr: 28:11

for me. So, yeah, right, I mean, but I've

Laura Bowman: 28:13

been in running shape. I know I can get back in. Yes, I have, but, I mean, they're never been, like, particularly easy for me. I have a whole thing around the marathon. The marathon is a whole lesson and of itself. You know, that's a metaphor for something.

Colette Fehr: 28:27

But what's the lesson of the marathon? Oh, the lesson of the

Laura Bowman: 28:31

marathon is, I mean, well, my story with running is that I, when I came to running in my early 30s, I ended up being like a little bit better than I thought I'd be, and it became like, a real ego thing, where it's like, every time I ran a race, I was, like, in the top 10, and I just got, like, really, like, Oh my God. You know, my brother used got a lot of validation. I got a lot of validation. And my brother used to say something because he was an incredible runner, and he'd say, I have no plan when I run, I just go out fast and hope I don't get caught. That's what he'd always say. And I remember thinking, I have no plan for running. I'm just like, gonna do me. And I mean, running is very it's very scientific. It's very like, you're dealing with fat burning and calories and your VO two max. And I was like, fuck it. I'm just gonna run and do me. You know, like, how I approach so many things, right? And it's, it's very scientific. You have to have an approach. And when I reached my ceiling with running, because marathoning was very hard on me, I would get, like, sick a lot. I would get I would get run down. And I was the way I was training. I was really on pace to, like, make Boston qualifying, but I didn't really learn how to run a marathon, like it's a process, and I fell apart in the last, like four miles, and, you know, I just, I couldn't keep the pace. But I, instead of being like, curious and going, huh, this was a rep, I wonder what I'd have to do in order to get better at this. I was like, fuck it like the very young, like, I don't want to get information about myself that doesn't that. I don't like that I don't like so I don't want to play anymore, and I'm not going to do it. And I would like walk around relate to that, yeah. And I would walk around and say things like, you know, I've said this before, maybe on the podcast, like, your your marathon time is really like, your S, A, T, like, there's just a ceiling you can't break, you know, like, you're just sort of, like, gonna find your time and you really can't get past that. Well, that's total bullshit. Yeah, you can. You absolutely can. I watched my kid. Blow past his boundaries on the s and we know

Colette Fehr: 30:43

grit and perseverance, right?

Laura Bowman: 30:46

So you grow so ready. I'm ready again to do the marathon differently, with a renewed perspective of coaching self and being curious and staying with myself as I want to have a tantrum and say this, this is hard, this is stupid. I don't know why I'm doing this, but long story, long I ended up getting a thing for the New York City Marathon, like, why don't you register? And I've registered for years, and I never get in. And I was like, You know what? I'm just gonna register. I'm gonna register it. I'm just gonna see and of course, this is the year that I probably have the least bandwidth to do something like this. But I was like, You know what, if I get in, and I'll find out sometime in March if I get in? And of course, I'll get in when I'm like, least ready for

Colette Fehr: 31:35

it, right? And that will be the hero's journey. But I'll do it. I'll do it, and you're gonna

Laura Bowman: 31:41

force myself to do it

Colette Fehr: 31:43

right, and that might be the only way it happened. I mean, I feel like that's the same thing with my book. I didn't expect to get a contract with Penguin Random House, and then I was excited for about four seconds, and then went into total terror. Now, how am I going to write a book? How am I going to write a book that's good enough? And it was a painful process, but once you HAD, Once I had the contract, I had no choice, and I figured out how to do it, and I made it something that was I was proud of, and you will do the same for the marathon. And I think this is it. I think there is something to as we wrap up this episode. There's something to if we want to grow, if we want life to be meaningful, we have to be willing to suffer, because it's part of the journey. There's just no escaping the messy middle, and we have to put ourselves into situations that there's no turning back and that for suffering or we will not grow. Won't grow because I'm also reading another book, and we can talk about this another time, but called Ask not and it's about how the Kennedy family, the Kennedy family, and how they ruined their women like by Maureen Callahan. It's fascinating, and I've gotten it all into this because of love story and the Carolyn Bessette JFK Jr show, but there's a line in there. Again, she's really a good writer, something I'm so envious of and greatly respect, where she says that Jackie dumped her first fiance who was like a financial advisor, and because she would have ended up no more than like, like, beautiful Wisteria in a leafy suburb. I forget exactly how they put it right. Like she would have had a comfortable but like unremarkable, like unremarkable, where she would have been a trophy and adornment and she for whatever you think of Jackie beyond her style, she was really sharp and really smart, and she had she wanted a bigger life. So whatever a bigger life means to you, it doesn't have to be obviously the first lady there's you're gonna have to push yourself into some of these goals and really be kind to yourself and with your feelings as you go through the suffering. Each conflict comes with its own set of sufferings, but its own accomplishments, its own like you're better and better and better as you go.

Laura Bowman: 34:16

Yeah, and this is why, like in therapy, when people come in and they're kind of in a bad place, and their their instinct is to want to take things off their plate. Like, because you just want to, you want to really curl up and die.

Colette Fehr: 34:29

That's where I am right now. Yeah,

Laura Bowman: 34:31

I'm girl. I want, I want a weighted blanket and the fetal position.

Colette Fehr: 34:35

But, I mean, I want to, I want to drop all these things I've been doing right like, and do maybe one thing, and I'm trying to, I mean, I am doing too much. It's not sustainable. But I also realize exactly that you want to just say, like, no, no, no, and you can't let that energy, it's got to come from the energy of like, discernment and refinement clarity, not fear and hiding,

Laura Bowman: 35:01

Right exactly. But I think with you, you really do have, like, a shit ton on your plate. But I think a lot of people want to check out of life in general and just dial back even, like normal things and make them less hard. And the the sort of counter intuitive approach is you actually sometimes have to put something hard on the plate. Yes, and it's the thing that you put on the plate that's hard that gets you through it, yes,

Colette Fehr: 35:25

and then makes you better and happier. Like, I think this is the thesis of this is that happiness is suffering,

Laura Bowman: 35:36

yeah? Like, how did we get there? But that's true.

Colette Fehr: 35:39

I mean, yeah. It is because, at the end of the day, Laura, even though and I'm so grateful we have each other and that we can talk so candidly about the struggles and not try to, like, advise each other out of how we feel. It's just so helpful to have the space to be who you are and how you are and feel how you are, and have someone allow you to talk about it, but I also think we're in agreement that, like, maybe some things are hard right now, and maybe you guys are listening thinking, doesn't look that hard. It looks great. But you know, there's a lot more, just like there is to everyone's life, and like, the privacy of your daily life, your agonies, your relationships, your finances, your career, your indecision, your insecurities, trust me, nobody's fucking happy, yeah. But if you're engaged in your life and you're striving to grow, and you're thinking about, like, what could I do next, however big or small, but it makes a difference to you, and it can make a difference to somebody else, like, that's what's going to make you ultimately happier. Like, joy isn't I've cleared my life of all its obstacles, and I can sit with a cocktail and a cigarette. I mean, it sounds good, but that's not for an hour, right? That's escape.

Laura Bowman: 36:57

Yeah, I like the what you said about happiness is suffering. It's like the willingness to have a relationship with suffering, yes, yes, be in relationship with it, yes, and continually parent yourself through it in a way that it's like, I can handle this. I'm expanding, kind,

Colette Fehr: 37:17

loving, encouraging and also not letting you off the hook, right? Like, yeah, stay in the game and know that sometimes you get beat up and that you still want to be in the game. Yeah. So I can't wait to hear what happens with the marathon.

Laura Bowman: 37:33

I can't wait. Yeah, I'll let you know if I get in, if I if I don't get in, I'm 100% doing it on my 50th birthday, and that will be the 20th year of my dad's passing. He died of lymphoma. And I was like, if I don't get in this year, I'll run for the Leukemia Lymphoma Society and do it like in honor of him.

Colette Fehr: 37:55

Oh, I love it. I like

Laura Bowman: 37:57

it's gonna happen this year or next year. Well. And also

Colette Fehr: 38:01

spoke it. Now you spoke it, and it shall be well. I won't be doing that with you, but I'll cheer you on from the sidelines. All right, you guys, we hope you got some great insights from our couch today on the meaning of life, and go suffer. We'll see you next time. Bye. You.